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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-04-15

---Logopened Sat Apr 15 00:00:09 2017
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02:15<andythenorth>lo Alberth
02:20<quiznilo>if I find I have too many passengers piling up at a station, I collect them all up and take them out to a FIRS fishing ground drop them off
02:20<andythenorth>probably :P
02:21<quiznilo>you have a morbid sense of humor
02:25<quiznilo>claims it accepts passengers... it does not... sad
02:26<andythenorth>tile will, industry won’t
02:26*andythenorth checks
02:27<quiznilo>I couldn't even force them off
02:27<andythenorth>station says it accepts
02:28<andythenorth>tile-accepts-but-industry-doesn’t is an edge case, might be odd behaviour there
02:28<quiznilo>caveat, I'm using async cargodest, but I couldn't get passengers to leave the ship
02:28<andythenorth>yeah, maybe it needs the industry acceptance in that case
02:28<andythenorth>or the link isn’t established yet
02:28<andythenorth>oh it’s async
02:29<andythenorth>hmm dunno
02:29<quiznilo>a sandbank is-a oil rig?
02:30<andythenorth>station names are not my department :D
02:30<andythenorth>other people did those
02:30*andythenorth glad about that
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02:49<@Alberth>so perhaps "extreme" advantage is freedom in choice?
02:49<@Alberth>ie not all industries aimed at asingle purpose
02:50<@Alberth>hmm, weather-forecast casts we get some sun and some clouds, but so far, clouds win :)
02:59<andythenorth>Alberth: FIRS makefile now misses graphviz :)
02:59<andythenorth>previous version L40-47
03:03<@Alberth>needs a few more build rules :)
03:04<@Alberth>on the other hand, it protects you from the messy economies mess :p
03:07<andythenorth>I’m not sure how frosch’s insane trick works :)
03:13<@Alberth>ifeq ($(DOT)$(GVPR),$(GVPR)$(DOT)) <-- this?
03:14<@Alberth>it tests 2 strings for equality, one string is the 'dot' path + the 'gvpr' path, and the other string does the same, but concatenates in reverse order
03:15<@Alberth>so if both paths are empty, you compare two empty strings -> equal
03:15<@Alberth>if one is empty, you compare the same path -> equal
03:15<@Alberth>if both are non-empty, -> not equal
03:15<@Alberth>unless 'dot' is the same executable as 'gvpr' :p
03:16<@Alberth>so yeah, quite clever way to check that both paths are non-empty
03:19<@Alberth>one path is empty is the tricky one. suppose DOT='dot', and GVPR='' (empty)
03:19<@Alberth>ifeq('dot' + '', '' + 'dot) ----> if ('dot','dot') ----> equal
03:20<@Alberth>ie you can concatenate the empty string on either side, the result is the same
03:20<andythenorth>oic :)
03:22<andythenorth>wondering if I can copy-paste it
03:22<@Alberth>looks very possible
03:23<@Alberth>I would probably make it a separate target, but it's not necessary, since you basically want to do it as part of the html-docs build anyway
03:51<andythenorth>L90 or so here
03:59<@Alberth>does it make a difference if you put the ifeq/else/endig against the left margin?
03:59<@Alberth>it's not a shell command, you pick one of the sides while constructing the makefile, before it is executed (or rather, while it is executed)
04:00<@Alberth>must do some shopping biab
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04:26<Eddi|zuHause>there haven't been any new posts in the suggestions forum in a week. this game is officially done now.
04:35<andythenorth>it’s pretty close
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05:11<andythenorth>lo Wolf01
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06:41<Wolf01>Wow, deep learning with R
06:41<Wolf01>But I should first learn R
06:42<andythenorth>do wagon speed limits suck?
06:43<Wolf01>No, why?
06:44<Wolf01>I like to attach a 80km/h limited wagon to a 140km/h engine
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>no. just don't do the pikka thing where each wagon has a slightly different limit
06:45<andythenorth>I don’t :)
06:45<andythenorth>should engine and wagon generations arrive at the same time?
06:45<andythenorth>(with wagon and engine speeds matched)
06:46<andythenorth>why boring?
06:46<Wolf01>Feel like something you must purchase in bundle
06:46<andythenorth>I prefer not having them synchronised, but that’s for drawing reasons
06:46<andythenorth>there are 4 or 5 generations of engine, only 3 of wagons
06:46<andythenorth>I don’t want to draw more :P
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06:54<andythenorth>bored of my test game after 15 years :|
07:04<andythenorth>FIRS textile mill has grown some roof pods :P[237]/6/0/2/1690602_morley_mill_web_2.jpg
07:05<Wolf01>Access denied
07:05<Wolf01>Mmmh stupid links with symbols
07:11<andythenorth>need to drop the chinook from Iron Horse :P
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07:40<andythenorth>what’s better?
07:40<andythenorth>wagon speed increase before engine speed increase?
07:40<andythenorth>or engine speed increase before wagon speed increase?
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07:43<Wolf01>Random? Like E-W-W-E-W-E?
07:44<frosch123>andythenorth: the important part is that trains with different cargo have the same top-speed most of the time
07:44<andythenorth>Wolf01: so it’s not a repeating pattern?
07:44<frosch123>so they can share tracks without waiting on each other all the time
07:44<andythenorth>except pax
07:45<andythenorth>and mail
07:45<frosch123>it's somewhat accepted that they are different
07:46*andythenorth trying to find right cadence for introducing trains
07:47<andythenorth>trucks work well at 29 years
07:47<andythenorth>trams at 40 years
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07:52<andythenorth>problem #1 is that I know too much about UK trains :(
07:52<andythenorth>I could really do with lobotomising that bit of my brain
08:02<@Alberth>horse fixes?
08:04<andythenorth>reset of dates, stats
08:04<andythenorth>might be worse afterwards, not sure :P
08:04<@Alberth>it seemed to work mostly, imho
08:05<@Alberth>a bit early-ish for me, but fair enough
08:05<@Alberth>it's all just a number anyway
08:08<andythenorth>1860-1960 is pretty good
08:08<andythenorth>then it gets a bit lost
08:08<@Alberth>:o there is more?
08:09<andythenorth>it goes to about 2000 or so
08:11<andythenorth>also lengths are bothering me
08:11<andythenorth>I want neat 0.5 length multiples
08:14<@Alberth>+1 to 0.5
08:14<@Alberth>there is no simple list, is there?
08:17<@Alberth>oh, dear, it has rosters too, I must be missing so much :)
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08:26<andythenorth>there’s only one working roster
08:26<andythenorth>frosch123: I broke the FIRS graphviz with new makefile :P
08:27<andythenorth>I tried to fix it here
08:27<andythenorth>but I am clearly doing it wrong
08:27<andythenorth>(L90 or so)
08:40<frosch123>anything specific that does not work?
08:41<frosch123>are you hinting at "graphviz not found" with your L90 comment?
08:42<andythenorth>new paste (with indenting corrected)
08:42<frosch123>the target $HTML_DOCS looks weird
08:42<frosch123>is that a directory?
08:42<andythenorth>“Makefile:95: *** missing separator. Stop.”
08:43<andythenorth>yes it’s a dir
08:44<frosch123>remove the empty line at 90?
08:45<frosch123>also you are not using tabs in that pbyx paste
08:45<frosch123>93, 95, 96, 97 need tab
08:45<frosch123>the "directory is target" makes little sens
08:46<frosch123>but you seem to do that all over the place :p
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08:50*andythenorth tests
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09:47<andythenorth>wish I could stop focus-follows-mouse :(
09:47<andythenorth>it’s making OpenTTD unusable
09:48<Wolf01>Ha, on windows we have to enable it if we need it :P
09:49<andythenorth>it’s irritatingly intermittent
09:50<Wolf01>Useful when doing some things and irritating with other things
09:50<andythenorth>it’s somehow related to scroll
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09:51<Wolf01>On windows just scrolling doesn't change focus
09:52<andythenorth>must be some OS X specific bug
09:53<Wolf01>It's irritating with multi monitor when you don't look where the pointer is and when you scroll the chat window you boost up/down the volume of the video you are watching in the other monitor :P
09:53<andythenorth>it wasn’t present in OpenTTD on previous OS X versions
09:53<andythenorth>and it’s present in older binaries
09:53<andythenorth>as well as tip
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>i like focus follows mouse
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>but it doesn't properly follow the mouse on drag&drop
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>and focus under mouse is too strict, because that makes alt+tab unusable
09:55<Wolf01>You should be able to set the timeout
09:56<Wolf01>Like 0.2-0.5 seconds
09:56<Eddi|zuHause>that's not it
09:56<Wolf01>I set it to 2 seconds so it won't focuses every single window when I move the mouse rapidly
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09:56<andythenorth>there’s no setting for it in OpenTTD, right? o_O
09:57*andythenorth looked
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>drag&drop basically disables following the mouse
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>so whatever window i drop on, will not have focus
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>i have to either leave the window and come back, or click
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>it's mighty annoying
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>and there's no setting
09:57<@Alberth>kde has a range of different notions on focus following mouse
09:58<Eddi|zuHause>and all of them are "wrong" in some way
09:59<@Alberth>andythenorth: nope, it mostly uses whatever the display library provides (eg SDL, but don't know what OSX uses)
09:59<andythenorth>OS X has no follow-focus built in afaik
09:59<@Alberth>the fact that it is broken for older openttds suggests it's not caused by openttd
09:59<andythenorth>I was hoping I was overlooking a setting
10:00<andythenorth>but it’s unreliable behaviour, so unlikely to be due to a setting
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10:00<@Alberth>no focus follows mouse setting??? people like getting RSI apparently
10:01<andythenorth>I guess I am used to clicking a lot
10:01<@Alberth>let me guess, it also does auto-raise :p
10:03<@Alberth>gnome does it too, and no way to get sane behavior there; it has no other way to raise a window with the mouse
10:03*andythenorth trying to debug it
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10:04<andythenorth>it’s particularly annoying when opening a new window
10:05<andythenorth>as the one that is being opened goes behind the opener
10:05<andythenorth>pretty unusable
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10:05<andythenorth>OpenTTD has no problems on recent Windows?
10:05<@Alberth>with an apple? nah, can't be :p
10:05*andythenorth wonders if it’s time to switch
10:09<Wolf01>Why should it have problems?
10:09<@Alberth>there is this zoom problem thingie, but that can apparently be solved
10:09<andythenorth>“Function of scrollwheel:” setting that to “zoom map” or “off” seems to cure the issue
10:09<andythenorth>testing intermittent issues is hard :P
10:10<@Alberth>and w10 is designed as spyware, which may or may not be a problem
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10:25*andythenorth did the diligent thing :P
10:25<andythenorth>diligently increasing the OS X bug count
10:33<@peter1138>i don't even know what it means
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10:42<andythenorth>I considered making a video
10:47<andythenorth>ach 35MB limit on FS
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11:07<andythenorth>peter1138: added a comment + link to screen record
11:08<andythenorth>it’s 80MB :P
11:16<Wolf01>On windows the scrolling of the map with the scrollwheel doesn't seem to work
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11:18<supermop_home>Wolf01is that even a feature?
11:19<Wolf01>Why not? All my mice have 2 axis scrollwheels
11:21<Wolf01>BTW I think the 1st problem (newgrf parameters window) is a bug, since it should be modal
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11:25<Wolf01>All the other windows come to front when they have focus, I think is a standard feature, ok the fact they get the scrollwheel as focus might be strange
11:25<andythenorth>they shouldn’t focus on hover
11:26<andythenorth>it’s weird
11:28<Wolf01>In the game is really weird
11:33<Wolf01>Does OS X recognize game windows? Or maybe the mouse constantly send some input to focus stuff
11:33<Wolf01>Like a sort of "button 4"
11:33<Wolf01>I bet the game reacts even to my button 4 and 5
11:34<Wolf01>No, it doesn't :(
11:35<frosch123>there is a setting to control the behaviour of the scrollwheel
11:35<frosch123>its zoom by default iirc
11:35<frosch123>but i also think the two-wheel scrolling is bjarni only
11:36<Wolf01>That doesn't seem to work on windows and does strange stuff to andy
11:36<Wolf01>I should try with the other mouse which has the touch wheel
11:36<andythenorth>it’s only ‘scroll map’ that’s borked
11:36*andythenorth suspects a patch
11:37<andythenorth>iirc, I tested one some time when
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11:37<Wolf01>Pushed the wrong x
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11:38<andythenorth>this one is too old I think
11:38<frosch123>how can wolf close andys windows?
11:38<andythenorth>when was 1.3.0?
11:38<andythenorth>hmm this is too old then
11:38*andythenorth has to go read git
11:39<frosch123>take the first two degits, and put a 20 in front
11:39<andythenorth>interesting commit;a=commit;h=79e180250cf25d484e25fe00cb47ecde213137c5
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11:40<Wolf01>Ok, back in r27358 it didn't work too even with the other mouse
11:40<andythenorth>ach dunno, can’t see any post-2013 commits referencing scrolling on OS X
11:40<Wolf01>It never worked I think
12:21<Wolf01> I can't even...
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13:00<_dp_>I fucking hate microsoft
13:00<_dp_>why can't they make programs that just work
13:00<argoneus>good evening train friends
13:01<_dp_>takes me several hours to get through some stupid crap every time I go to windows to compile new release :(
13:15<@Alberth>compilers don't make money :)
13:15<@Alberth>in particular, anything non-.NET :p
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: so did the refund thing go anywhere?
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13:22<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: and sure, must certainly be a comma :p
13:35<andythenorth>@seen DanMacK
13:35<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: DanMacK was last seen in #openttd 51 weeks, 0 days, 1 hour, and 53 seconds ago: <DanMacK> @seen andythenorth
13:36<andythenorth>he might manage the year
13:36<@Alberth>looks likely :)
13:36*andythenorth back to drawing pixels
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13:49<V453000>slug world domination here yet?
13:51<andythenorth>is V453000
13:52<V453000>how are you?
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13:54<andythenorth>dream living
13:56<V453000>what does that mean?
13:56<V453000>cats on boats??
13:56<V453000>cat found?
13:57<V453000>ultimately geometrically corret ship drawn?
13:59<andythenorth>this sort of thing
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14:01<V453000>what is that?
14:02<@Alberth>factorio in real-life :p
14:03<andythenorth>coke plant
14:04<V453000>Alberth: in what?
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14:26<argoneus>"compilers don't make money"
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15:13<supermop>andythenorth: that coke oven is new?
15:13<supermop>looks like something out of the early 70s
15:13<andythenorth>yeah, I’m doing a relatively modern one
15:13<andythenorth>most people won’t know different
15:16<supermop>there is something achingly beautiful about the last generation of truly dirty heavy industry
15:16<supermop>chemical lants and refineries from late 60s japan or europe
15:17<supermop>international orange strips on skinny guyed smokestacks
15:18<supermop>i guess without the EPA we will be going back to that stuff, but the building are just going to look like boring pole barns
15:18<supermop>most arc furnaces ive seen here just look like some generic shed with a pile of scrap metal out front
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15:40<andythenorth>supermop: here’s what I’ve got so far
15:40<andythenorth>proportions of the coke battery aren’t right
15:40<andythenorth>but I’ll stick some pipes and stuff on and see
15:53<quiznilo>gonna see if I can test out FIRS tip, see if I can find some bugs
15:55<quiznilo> <- that's the tip, right?
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16:25<quiznilo>installing chameleon and markdown... for some reason, NML was already installed
16:26<quiznilo>hmm... no config, so just hit 'make'?
16:26<andythenorth>just make
16:42<@peter1138>hmm just found another old directory of patches...
17:00<quiznilo>is firs.grf the only file I have to cp?
17:02<quiznilo>and there it is... FIRS Industry Replacement Set r5510, just as advertised. Gonna try Steeltown
17:05<Wolf01><Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: so did the refund thing go anywhere? <- they are working on it, a lot of people seem to have the problem
17:08<quiznilo>"There were no suitable places for 'Basic Oxygen Furnace' industries. Change the map generation parameters to get a better map." ottd 1.7.0, subarctic 1840 start, FIRS r5510
17:09<Wolf01>Bad feature
17:09<quiznilo>should I report bugs here or on a forum?
17:09<Wolf01>Bash andy, he is here
17:09<quiznilo>I don't bash devs *indignant look*
17:10<Wolf01>He is a devloloper, like me
17:10<quiznilo>andythenorth: ^^
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17:12<quiznilo>also, getting this error message for TTRS 1.2 "Loading TTRS bridges is useless, you should disable TTRS bridges if you lack free memory"
17:13<Wolf01>Disable the bridges then, it's useless since they are part of the baseset
17:13<andythenorth>interesting that BOF won’t build
17:13<andythenorth>just once, or more often>
17:13<quiznilo>2 out of 2 times so far
17:14<quiznilo>3/3 times subactic, 1840
17:15<quiznilo>nada temperate, 1840
17:15<andythenorth>is it mountainous?
17:15<quiznilo>needs flat map?
17:15<andythenorth>shouldn’t but try it
17:15<andythenorth>how many blast furnaces on the map?
17:16<andythenorth>ok try 1851
17:16<andythenorth>interesting bug
17:16<quiznilo>tried very flat, 1840, no good... a sec
17:17<Wolf01>Could you do more tries to place industries? Maybe on last try you should force terraforming
17:17<quiznilo>1851, temperate flat works
17:17<andythenorth>flat doesn’t matter, it’s a date bug
17:17<quiznilo>I'm just reporting the results with all the params
17:17<andythenorth>it checks for blast furnaces, which aren’t available until 1850
17:17<andythenorth>try your preferred map style again :)
17:17<@peter1138>hmm, well, not found my old map generator :(
17:18<quiznilo>1851 subarctic works
17:19<@peter1138>oohh found it
17:19<@peter1138>and some maps :p
17:19<@peter1138>it uses floats, YEAH
17:20<quiznilo>I have 1.00000000028 trains
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17:30<Wolf01>Clicking on the "exit" button in the video to close the game is priceless
17:30<Wolf01>Like when one tries to scroll a screenshot
17:42*andythenorth does that often
17:44<quiznilo>there is actually a 'Limekiln Pike' near me
17:52<quiznilo>andy was asking about station name ideas
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18:05<quiznilo>I'd like to get a better feel for the 'lbf' measurement, and how that relates to tons of freight
18:05<quiznilo>and google isn't helping me
18:09<supermop_home>its an imperial measurement for torque
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18:16<quiznilo>wow... a 4,496 lbf Norris can realistically handle about 40 tons, with realistic acceleration on, and 5x weight multiplier for freight
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18:16<supermop_home>peter1138: it's pound-foot
18:18<@peter1138>path caching?
18:18<Samu>when map height is 255 on sub-tropic rivers won't generate
18:19<Samu>it generates when it's 15
18:19<Samu>haven't tried other values yet
18:19<supermop_home>tropic generation is fucked
18:19<supermop_home>best to re-write it
18:22<supermop_home>I feel like I am going to need to forget architecture and just convince my wife to teach my python
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18:22<supermop_home>if I'm going to ever be able to afford to take vacations while staying here in the city
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18:27<@peter1138>yeah just use original generator for non-temperate
18:28<@peter1138>no rivers then either :p
18:30<_dp_>cache rivers
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18:33<quiznilo>yeah, I don't think it's possible to make a profit with Norris's hauling freight
18:33<quiznilo>with those settings. Possibly just passengers
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22:13<Soni>has anyone ported OpenTTD to Minecraft command blocks yet?
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---Logclosed Sun Apr 16 00:00:10 2017