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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-04-26

---Logopened Wed Apr 26 00:00:25 2017
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03:08<Eddi|zuHause>yes, YAPF can find paths that require going through a depot
03:08<Eddi|zuHause>(it will vastly prefer ones that don't, though)
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03:24<quiznilo>of course, that's sensible
03:25<quiznilo>I'm testing out this patch that allows you to adjust the time, slow down the pace or pick it up, but it's bugged as hell
03:25<quiznilo>it slows down everything... but not the vehicles
03:25<quiznilo>so if you do 5x time rediction, that means all your vehicles travel 5x faster
03:26<quiznilo>so you need 5x less infrastructure, basically
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04:37<Alkel_U3>quiznilo: regarding the depot maintenance thing, I always add explicit depot orders with 'service when needed' option, only way to be safe imho. Also that way I can offload servicing from hub stations with too high traffic to depots with less trafic around them
04:41<quiznilo>nice, I'll experiment with that
04:42<Alkel_U3>sometimes I use 'maintenance in nearest depot when needed' order when it's around big stations with multiple depots
04:50<Alkel_U3>oh, and the return from depot after station to the station would also be simple, just use the path signals. I do that frequently just so I can buy a train / send a train to depot for modification and have it go straigt to the station then without requiring extra depot before the station just for that
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04:53<quiznilo>makes sense
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06:09<Wolf01>Java update is really shitty, each time it fails mid download, do they give a fixed time to download it?
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06:23<Wolf01> lol
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10:15<supermop_>autocad is registering like 60% of my left clicks as right clicks
10:15<supermop_>but only when a command is active
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10:55<@Alberth>hi hi
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12:59<quiznilo>what's a good clever AI script to play with?
13:00<V453000>lol good clever ai
13:00<V453000>multiplayer :p
13:00<Alkel_U3>hire people to play the competition
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13:10<@Alberth>find a nice one that fits your taste :)
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13:30<_maddy>trying to write an AI according to the intro page on wiki (, it is not loading, where do I look?
13:31<LordAro>what isn't loading? that page works fine for me
13:31<@Alberth>the AI that maddy wrote, is my guess :)
13:33<LordAro>ah, well that's different
13:33<LordAro>ai debug console to the rescue!
13:34<Cubey>I like to play long games with an early start date in the 1800s. Is it necessary to turn inflation off in order to prevent running costs from exceeding profits after 100 years or so? Or is there some other option like an inflation setting that increases costs and profits at the same rate?
13:35<_maddy>LordAro: oh, you were being clever there
13:36<supermop>Cubey: there is no non-original inflation yet
13:37<supermop>i've always felt it could be useful
13:37<@Alberth>Cubey: there is such a setting, it sets both rates to 0
13:37<Cubey>Would that be setting inflation to off?
13:38<@Alberth>yes, it's a bad name :p
13:38<supermop>that's what alberth means
13:38<@Alberth>ie there is no point in costs and profits rising, it just the numbers getting bigger
13:38<Cubey>It's unfortunate that that setting makes the prices of vehicles unrealistic over time
13:39<supermop>there is no way to say, decrease value of hoarded cash in real terms while keeping costs proportionate
13:39<@Alberth>nothing really changes
13:39<_maddy>openttd is not detecting my ai, I have info.nut and main.nut in ./ai/CrusherAI/
13:39<Cubey>Well, an inflation that just makes the numbers get bigger with differential between costs and profits DOES have the effect of diminishing the value of savings
13:39<supermop>Alberth there is plenty of reason - same as why central banks like to encourage modest inflation
13:40<supermop>to promote spending by reducing the real value of 1M in a bank over 50 years
13:40<Cubey>Other than that it would be just a cosmetic change though, I guess
13:41<_maddy>a lot of things about the openttd economy are not very realistic...
13:41<@Alberth>_maddy: you can set a -d option at the command-line with openttd, to get more output what it finds and decides, run "openttd -h" for getting help
13:41<@Alberth>_maddy: name one thing that is realistic :p
13:41<_maddy>awesome now I got a proper error message :) thanks
13:42<LordAro>Alberth: there is money
13:42<@Alberth>_maddy: at least a starting point :)
13:42<@Alberth>LordAro: there is? It all just looks like bits to me :)
13:43<Cubey>I don't see it as being about realism so much as gameplay
13:43<Cubey>It seems like the player would expect a locomotive to cost quite a lot more in 2020 than in 1880
13:44<LordAro>Alberth: :p
13:44<_maddy>I think there is a mod/patch that focuses on the economy on the forums.. never tried it though
13:44<@Alberth>they would? I don't know if you take out inflation, is an engine really more expensive?
13:45<_maddy>no, it shouldn't be
13:45<@Alberth>LordAro: You can have the 99% of my OpenTTD money, if I can have 1% of it in real euros :p
13:45<Cubey>Well, in the modern world a new airplane or a locomotive or whatever costs on the magnitude of millions of dollars
13:46<LordAro>Alberth: :D
13:46<LordAro>Alberth: ah, that's something that's realistic - the conversion dates for euros
13:46<@Alberth>modern world does have inflation :)
13:46<@Alberth>LordAro: haha :D
13:50<@Alberth>conversion dates are a bit broken though, you can play in euros before it is invented :p
13:51<LordAro>you can play before most of the currencies are invented :p
13:51<LordAro>with the possible exception of drachma
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13:52<Eddi|zuHause>openttd has unfortunately no negative dates
13:56<@Alberth>it has an offset of 1950 years
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14:30<_maddy>oh there is a feature to set a custom currency, didn't know of that
14:31<@Alberth>people invent new currencies all the time! :p
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14:47<@Alberth>hi hi
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15:16<andythenorth>Alberth: you maybe saw already, but
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15:25<nekomaster>I love when I try to figure out things for myself and I can never get anything right
15:25<nekomaster>Like why is it so hard to get data to make a heightmap
15:27<andythenorth>also buses
15:27<nekomaster>it would seem that its almost impossible to get DEM or proper TIFF files to make heightmaps now
15:27<nekomaster>I've tried everything I could think of all day and nothing works
15:28<nekomaster>is a heightmap of canada to make a huge scenario out of too much to ask for?
15:52<@Alberth>andythenorth: I didn't see that, but I got at that point already :) thanks though, it's good to see others reach that same conclusion :)
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15:53<andythenorth>python ottd then :P
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16:07<Eddi|zuHause>nekomaster: you usually don't find good heightmaps that far north
16:08<nekomaster>I just want data for mainland canada
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>nekomaster: because heightmap generators use silly mercator projection
16:08<nekomaster>I don't really care about the projection much
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>which gives you terribly out-of-scale canadas
16:08<nekomaster>I have to fit the map into a square anyways
16:08<Cubey>That far north you are going to have to think about map projection though
16:08<Cubey>Like what shape do you even want Canada to be?
16:09<nekomaster>a huge 4096x4096 square
16:09<nekomaster>Like one map I did, only it was flat
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>nekomaster: you get the added problem that you should rotate the heighmap by 45° to fit openttd's map orientation
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>which means you need additional area on the heightmap to cut off
16:11<nekomaster>if anything, my issue is finding any way to get satellite data and use it
16:11<nekomaster>the old methods don't seem to work anywmore
16:11<Cubey>You could start with a high resolution global height map, crop canada out, and then reproject the image into something suitable for that latitude
16:11<nekomaster>also I tried stitching together some GeoTIFF's from Earth explorer and some TIFF's the land was eaten away by the ocean or there werent any great lakes
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>nekomaster: how about you just play the USA scenario?
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>it contains lots of canada
16:12<nekomaster>I have
16:12<nekomaster>but I want a large canada map
16:12<nekomaster>that way theres space in many area's to build rail like in real life
16:13<nekomaster>the USA scenario makes it really hard to build a proper Windsor to quebec corridor
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>if you have problems with too much or too few water, you need to adjust brightness in an image editor
16:13<nekomaster>Nah, its not the brightness, the TIFF files them selves just have too much black area period
16:13<nekomaster>absolute black
16:14<nekomaster>One map I stiched together and much of the north was missing because it was replaced by lots of water
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16:14<nekomaster>because the TIFF files had too much black area that couldn't be brightened
16:14<Cubey>You might need to make the scale of the image nonlinear
16:15<nekomaster>I dont even know what that means
16:15<Cubey>It means that you could for example make it so that the difference between "0" and "1" is bigger than the difference between 254 and 255
16:15<Cubey>If that makes any sense
16:16<nekomaster>but how would I even do that, not like I can change that easily
16:16<Cubey>Think about every pixel as a value between 0 and 255 (or 0% and 100% or 0 and 1 or whatever you want)
16:16<nekomaster>I don't want to spend months making a super realistic scenario
16:16<nekomaster>I just want a decent map to make a fun to play Canada scenario
16:17<Cubey>Let's use the range 0 to 1 for simplicity
16:17<nekomaster>So I'm not worried about 100% realism so long as I can fit most of the major stuff in
16:17<Cubey>If you multiplied the image by itself in your editor
16:17<Cubey>Every 0 pixel would still be 0 and every 1 would still be 1
16:17<nekomaster>But I dont even know how you'd do that to stretch it out like that
16:18<nekomaster>Other then stretching out parts of the map at a time
16:18<Cubey>Have you used photoshop or GIMP or a program like that?
16:18<nekomaster>I'm using GIMP but I'm a noob at photo editing stuff
16:19<Cubey>This isn't really photo editing because doing this stuff to actual photos would make them look very strange
16:19<nekomaster>Thats another issue I have too, I could try getting SRTM GeoTIFF files, but the brightness seems to be off on the edges of every section
16:19<Cubey>It's used e.g. by astronomers so that they can see both a dim star and a very bright star in the same image
16:19<nekomaster>SRTM maps look lik they would work IF THE BRIGHTNESS WASNT ALL OVER THE PLACE
16:19<Cubey>What I'm saying is that in real life, and therefore in a height map with a realistic vertical scale, the highest mountains are tens of thousands of times higher than a plain near sea level
16:20<Cubey>You can use math to "flatten" the brightest areas
16:20<nekomaster>I dont know how to do that either
16:20<Cubey>I'm not doing a very good job of explaining it...
16:20<nekomaster>Another issue is that the SRTM stuff is broken up into smaller chunks
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16:21<nekomaster>so that means a lot more downloading and stiching tiff's together
16:21<Cubey>That's going to be a bigger problem because you probably won't be able to line them up perfectly so near the pole
16:21<Cubey>Because the earth is round
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16:21<nekomaster>I just wish there was an easier way of doing this
16:22<Cubey>nekomaster, in GIMP use the "curves" tool
16:22<Cubey>I think it's in the "image" menu
16:22<nekomaster>yeah, I know where that is
16:22<FLHerne>nekomaster: In GIMP, try Tools -> Colour Tools -> Curves
16:22*FLHerne late
16:22<Cubey>By default your lightcurve is a straight line, right
16:23<Cubey>So that's "linear"
16:23<nekomaster>heres an example of the issue with the SRTM stuff
16:24<Cubey>Without changing the extreme ends of it (leaving them at 0 and 1), you could change the shape of the line in between so that it curves upward (like /**** ) or downward (like \__ )
16:24<Cubey>Oh, I see the problem
16:24<nekomaster>its like the satellite just said fuck it on every pass
16:24<Cubey>I think that may be caused by the nature of a satellite
16:25<Cubey>The earth isn't flat
16:25<nekomaster>I know
16:25<Cubey>So the curvature of the earth is part of the heightmap
16:25<Cubey>Which is not what you want
16:25<Cubey>Because you want to project the round earth onto a flat plain
16:25<nekomaster>I didn't think this was going to be easy but this is stupidly hard since the old ways of making maps doesnt work
16:25<Cubey>Find a global heightmap
16:25<Cubey>Canada is big so you don't even need a very high res one to get 4096 pixels across canada
16:26<nekomaster>there aren't any global heightmaps with a high enough resolution
16:26<Cubey>You are probably going to want to smooth the image to make it playable in OpenTTD anyway
16:26<Cubey>So you can upscale a smaller one and it won't be a problem
16:27<nekomaster>yeah, I can't find any decent height maps of the world
16:27<Cubey>How about this
16:28<nekomaster>the ocean is too bright
16:28<nekomaster>so there will be too much feature loss
16:28<Cubey>Right but you can fix all that with the curves tool
16:28<nekomaster>what I mean is florida is the same color as the ocean
16:28<nekomaster>Same with islands up north in canada
16:28<nekomaster>and the great lakes look like huge plains
16:29<Cubey>Because of what I was saying before: most of Florida is like 2 ft above sea level, while the rockies are tens of thousands of feet above sea level
16:29<Cubey>And the pixels only go from 0 to 255
16:29<nekomaster>I need a heightmap where the ocean is black or at least hte darkest
16:29<Cubey>So you need to stretch the values close to zero into a bigger range, and compress the values close to 255 into a smaller range
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16:31<Cubey>I'm gonna open up GIMP and mess around with this now because you've got me curious if it will actually work
16:31<andythenorth>levels in photoshop would do it
16:31<nekomaster>well I might have something going for canada, I at least have the ocean coasts where they should be
16:31<andythenorth>gimp probably similar
16:32<nekomaster>and the great lakes
16:32<nekomaster>but I'm still missing other major lakes and major rivers
16:32<nekomaster>like the st lawrence
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16:33<Cubey>If you have a flat map with the oceans and lakes in the right places, and a heightmap with problematic water but that is otherwise aligned with your flat map
16:33<Cubey>You could just overlay the bodies of water from the flat map onto the height map
16:33<nekomaster>though its not so easy for me when two maps dont line up properly
16:33<Cubey>GIMP won't start up on my PC for some reason...
16:34<Cubey>Map projection might be biting you there too
16:34<nekomaster>I'm a noob at all this GIMP/Photoshop stuff
16:35<nekomaster>I'm so green my head hurts even thinking about the time and effort that will go into trying to figure it out
16:35<Cubey>Even if you did a lot of photo editing this stuff would seem strange because it's not really what photo editing tools are designed to do
16:35<nekomaster>I'm not worried about getting every river and stream in the map, but I would like all the major water bodies at least
16:35<nekomaster>I'm more use to drawing maps by hand and what not
16:35<Cubey>Astronomers, geologists, etc. use specialized tools most of the time
16:37<Cubey>Ultimately the problem with height maps is that "height" isn't even well defined globally
16:37<Cubey>You can measure how high something is relative to its immediate surroundings
16:37<nekomaster>well I just at least want the Addrinoc, Appelichian, and Rocky mountains and the major lakes and rivers
16:37<Cubey>I.e. the satellite reads that this "pixel" is 200ft higher than that pixel next to it
16:37<nekomaster>I want the map to be fun, not bland or realistic and tough
16:38<Cubey>But over the entire surface of the earth, how do you even define what the zero height is?
16:38<nekomaster>The ocean?
16:38<Cubey>The oceans aren't really "level"
16:38<Cubey>And the Earth isn't really a perfect sphere
16:38<nekomaster>honestly, how do humans make accurate measurements period
16:39<Cubey>So the scientists who turn those satellite frames with the misaligned edges into a smooth global heightmap had to make up a (somewhat arbitrary) model of the "shape" of the Earth minus all the geography
16:39<nekomaster>I just wonder how people previous took satellite data and turned them into height maps
16:40<nekomaster>then again I'm asking for an entire country
16:40<nekomaster>basically half of North America
16:40<nekomaster>previous height maps where mostly of smaller countries like France, UK, and Japan
16:40<Cubey>And none of those countries have large inland lakes
16:41<nekomaster>Still, it would be nice if I could get something where the lakes where represented as 0, even if they aren't actually at sea level
16:42<nekomaster>I dont have the time to fill int he lakes by hand
16:42<Cubey>I've noticed that all the Japan heightmaps struggle to represent even the modestly sized lakes Japan has though
16:43<nekomaster>though if someone is patient they could probably put in the lakes by hand
16:43<nekomaster>I how ever do not have the time and patience
16:43<nekomaster>at most I dont want to spend more then a couple weeks
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>openttd's heightmap feature doesn't do rivers/lakes
16:44<Cubey>Oh look at that GIMP finally opened after slowing my computer to a crawl for 15 minutes and completely freezing up
16:44<nekomaster>I know, you have to do that by hand with the river tile thingy
16:44<nekomaster>Also it might help to disable GIMP from loading external stuff
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>there was a proposal to have rivers/lakes as additional image layer
16:44<Cubey>If you artificially put a lake at sea level, the terrain generator would make an inland sea there though right?
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>but it was never implemented
16:45<nekomaster>yeah, if I make lake ontario as Absolute zero black, it'll be a huge inland sea instead
16:45<nekomaster>though that also means there will be no niagra falls
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16:45<nekomaster>thats the only thing that sucks about not putting the effort into putting in the lakes manually ingame
16:46<nekomaster>then I could have a semi-realistic niagra falls
16:48<nekomaster>Also when I say I don't really have the time, thats because until goto Adult school in September, I have to find work
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16:48<nekomaster>and so I wont have a lot of time to be dicking around with the manual placement of every feature which takes longer then just getting it done through the heightmap
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17:20<nekomaster>I love how gimp mentions multi-threading and lets you set how many cores to use
17:20<nekomaster>and its still using only 1 core
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