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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-08-16

---Logopened Wed Aug 16 00:00:15 2017
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04:53<@peter1138>hurr, people in the office talking about factorio
05:06<andythenorth>such F
05:11<@peter1138>a whole capital F?
05:15<andythenorth>can we remove taking over comapnies?
05:15<andythenorth>or companies even?
05:15<andythenorth>it spawns a shitload of feature requests
05:16<@planetmaker>That would make it difficult to play jointly and build together
05:16<andythenorth>apparently that is difficult :)
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05:44<andythenorth>closed 15 more FS
05:45<andythenorth>Wolf01: maybe we should try applying some patches? o_O
05:45<andythenorth>ach we’d have to test MP desyncs and crap though
05:45<Wolf01>Yes, but they need code review
05:45*andythenorth has no idea how to do that
05:45<Wolf01>Are you able to do it?
05:45<andythenorth>code review? Not a chance
05:46<andythenorth>patchpack, testing cluster, chaos monkey
05:46<andythenorth>apply every patch, run it for 5 days
05:46<andythenorth>if stats say it works, ship it
05:48<Wolf01>Can you make a list of patches?
05:48<andythenorth>Flyspray needs tags :P
05:49<andythenorth>I could use the priorities as a hack
05:51<Wolf01>Add more states and use those
05:51<Wolf01>"in review"
05:52<andythenorth>I’ll just make them ‘flash’ for now
05:52<andythenorth>there aren’t many interesting ones
05:53<Wolf01>There isn't a column for priority in the list (but you can add it), and with status you could show a little of movement to people
05:55<Wolf01>I should identify what I'm good for, and then apply all myself to it
05:57<Wolf01>I know I'm good at prototyping, not so useful if I want stuff merged in trunk, I'm like a designer which can only make sketches
05:57<Wolf01>So I can't review the code too :/
05:57<andythenorth>Wolf01: actually I just scanned the patches
05:58<andythenorth>either (1) they’re a bad idea or (2) they’re things I don’t understand or (3) they’ve already been reviewed and failed, and never developed further
05:58<andythenorth>this is the only one that I thought looked interesting and not a bad idea
05:59<Wolf01>Code smells
06:00<Wolf01>For example the switch should be put in new lines, even if there's only one instruction
06:01<Wolf01>Missing braces on ifs
06:01<Wolf01>That's my review
06:01<andythenorth>close it
06:01*andythenorth thinks now to close a lot of patch FS
06:03<Wolf01>Also the switch is useless, just use v->type in the counter and handle 2 special cases
06:04<Wolf01>Magic numbers
06:05<Wolf01>Maybe it was aligned to r7059 standards, but not with the current
06:05<Wolf01>Those tabs in english.txt
06:11<LordAro>i'd close any patches that are >5 years old
06:12<LordAro>(that haven't been updated, might be worth checking forums)
06:12<LordAro>alternaticely, for 385, doesn't look too complicated, rewrite it?
06:13<Wolf01>That was my thought
06:28<_dp_>bug/feature with outdated patch is still no worse than one without a patch :p
06:29<_dp_>andythenorth, found one more bug for you to close:
06:35<andythenorth>LordAro: I’m +1 to closing >5 years old
06:35<andythenorth>or do you have edit rights LordAro ? o_O
06:36<andythenorth>_dp_: closed it
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06:47<Wolf01>Could I add a patch to fs?
06:50<LordAro>andythenorth: alas, i do not
06:50<LordAro>despite my best efforts over the years
06:51<LordAro>andythenorth: also, i have actual work to do :p
06:56<@peter1138>hmm, so should i get a mikrotik or ubiquiti ap
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07:04<Wolf01> I did right?
07:05<@peter1138>ooh typo
07:10<Wolf01> also
07:10<andythenorth>there are a few other typo patches in the queue Wolf01 :)
07:11<andythenorth>you could bundle them
07:13<andythenorth>actually that was all
07:13<andythenorth>I thought there were more
07:13<LordAro>Wolf01: texteditor files should, technically, go in your global ignores rather than the project
07:14<LordAro>Wolf01: but you also forgot the svn:ignore addition :p
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07:15<andythenorth>there’s also a string removal list
07:15<Wolf01>I know, but I don't have the .svn file
07:15<LordAro>Wolf01: doesn't go in there anyway ;)
07:15<LordAro>(yay propset)
07:15<@peter1138>smelly svn
07:16<Wolf01>I can do that with the trunk checkout
07:16<Wolf01>My local working copy is git
07:17<Wolf01>BTW.. if only there was a place to set that in the IDE
07:19<LordAro>i'd imagine there's a gitconfig file somewhere
07:20<Wolf01>There's an entire template for ingoring VS shit
07:20*peter1138 loads up openttd into vs code just for... no reason
07:21<LordAro>* peter1138 screams and closes it again
07:21<@peter1138>needs vim key bindings :p
07:21<Wolf01>Ha! I should "opt-out" from this functionality by changing a registry key
07:21<LordAro>i believe there's a plugin
07:21<@peter1138>oh yes there is
07:23<Wolf01>I can't understand why they used the project folder and not the documents folder to keep these files, maybe to help sharing the IDE settings with the group, but I would have liked more an import/export for that
07:24<andythenorth>566 FS issues
07:24<andythenorth>less than 840 eh?
07:25<LordAro>66 to go
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07:30<Wolf01>Computer\HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\VisualStudio\14.0_Config\FeatureFlags\Solution\WorkingFolders\LegacySUOMode <- easy to find
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07:32<Wolf01>BTW, LordAro: since there's already projects/*.suo in .gitignore, it's the same of .vs, as they moved the IDE config from a single file to a folder
07:35<LordAro>Wolf01: oh indeed
07:35<Wolf01>And svn alreadi has .vs ignored
07:35<LordAro>just my personal preference for ignore files is that they should only contain files generated by the project, not fikes generated by the text editor/environment
07:36<Wolf01>I just checked, so it's missing on .gitignore and .hgignore
07:36<LordAro>fair nuff :)
07:37<Wolf01>I'll submit both patches to fs, maybe I'll change the name of the ignores... maybe not
07:39<Wolf01>What category is that? Build system?
07:39<andythenorth>dunno :)
07:39<andythenorth>then you’ll need to find someone with commit rights ;)
07:39<LordAro>probably build system
07:40<LordAro>@seen Yexo
07:40<@DorpsGek>LordAro: Yexo was last seen in #openttd 4 years, 37 weeks, 0 days, 22 hours, 23 minutes, and 35 seconds ago: <Yexo> <NGC3982> The station glitches are CHIPS related. I adressed it to Andy the other day, and it seems like it's b0rked in some way. <- it's still in the issue tracker for CHIPS, but I haven't had time to look at it yet
07:41<Wolf01>He is here... maybe
07:47<andythenorth>nah long gone :)
07:51<LordAro>ottdc bouncer
07:52<LordAro>i have to say, if there's one thing i think that could improve the patch/trunk/deadness situation, it's more people with commit access
07:53<andythenorth>the ratio of ‘people with access / people committing in last 4 years’ is not good :)
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07:56<Wolf01>LordAro: I tried to look how to niceli disable the .vs folder, and I concluded that if I want to use different IDE settings for different project I should ignore the .vs folder from the CVS
07:56<Wolf01>*nicely.. what do I have against y today?
07:58<Wolf01>I added the task, your decision to apply the patch :P
07:59<Wolf01>andythenorth! Two more tasks for you to review :D
08:00<andythenorth>needs a code review ;)
08:00<Wolf01>I could do it
08:01<FLHerne>More active people with commit access, then
08:01<andythenorth>we need to not rely on frosch :)
08:01<andythenorth>for fairness
08:01<Wolf01>We rely on frosch, peter, LA, TB
08:02<Wolf01>Maybe RB too
08:02<andythenorth>path reviews ;)
08:02<andythenorth>or patch reviews
08:03<Wolf01>Also alberth
08:03<@peter1138>last time i committed i fucked it all up
08:03<andythenorth>standard for me
08:04<andythenorth>how badly wrong can it go? :P
08:04<@peter1138> 13:04:18 up 843 days
08:04<andythenorth>we don’t actually have paying customers :P
08:04<@peter1138>ought to reboot that one
08:04<LordAro>me? i've hardly been active at all in the last 4 years because of uni
08:04<@peter1138>"how badly wrong can it go?"
08:04<@peter1138>i'm not active cos i'm lazy
08:04<LordAro>* peter1138 timed out
08:04<@peter1138>also i'm actually active in the right way
08:04<@peter1138>on the bike :p
08:05<Wolf01>Unless you can't revert changes, it isn't too bad :P
08:05<@peter1138>LordAro, I'm doing a 200km audax on Saturday. For "fun".
08:05<LordAro>peter1138: i'm doing a 100km on sunday :)
08:05<LordAro>noice tho
08:05<Wolf01>I'm doing nothing on always
08:07<Wolf01> <-
08:07<@peter1138>LordAro, nice :D
08:10*andythenorth should do some exercise bike
08:10<andythenorth>not 200km
08:13<LordAro>why not? :D
08:13*LordAro would probably die if he tried 200km
08:13*LordAro will probably die when trying 100km
08:14<LordAro>did 43miles a couple of months ago
08:14<@peter1138>nah i see you've done a 4...
08:15<Wolf01>How do I install ottd on ubuntu? :D
08:15<Wolf01>(not from apt, that's too easy)
08:16<@peter1138>download package, install?
08:16<@peter1138>i guess you might have icu issues
08:17<LordAro>there's a thing that installs dependencies somewhere
08:18<Wolf01>Ok, I'll install it and then update the files
08:19<LordAro>..update the files?
08:19<LordAro>you shouldn't modify files under the control of a package manager
08:19<Wolf01>Oh ok
08:19<LordAro>dpkg -i ottd.deb
08:20<LordAro>apt-get install -f
08:20<LordAro>dpkg -i ottd.deb
08:21<Wolf01>Nice, I didn't know we had ascii-art openttd
08:22<@peter1138>sdl driver
08:23<Wolf01>Also no x server
08:35<andythenorth>well played
08:35<andythenorth>that’s a valid April fools
08:36<Wolf01>Next year one
08:36<Wolf01>If I only can close the game...
08:36<Wolf01>It seem to get mouse input
08:37<Wolf01>Ok, I closed the error popup
08:38<Wolf01>Ok, disabling the selection with the mouse worked
08:38<Wolf01>I should make a video
08:39<Wolf01>Ahahah opened the content manager by mistake
08:40<Wolf01>Fuck close it XD
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08:50<Wolf01> the 1.7.1 :P
08:51<crem>If only the projection was not isometric but rectangular topdown, it would be playable!
08:52<Wolf01>Sim city :D
08:53<crem>Text mode building game would be awesome! Dwarf fortress it a bit too hardcore. Something like simcity would be perfect. Or ttd, yes.
08:53<crem>Speaking of dwarf fortress..
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09:22<Wolf01>Good, I now have my bank account tied to paypal
09:22<Wolf01>A bit late
09:22<Wolf01>I needed it 3 days ago
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09:43<@peter1138>what are you buying me?
09:44<Wolf01>Nothing, I don't buy even for me
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11:21<supermop>whats the opinion on buses out at outskirts of town and villages
11:21<Alkel_U3>I use them
11:21<supermop>i've been trying a few transfer station in the outer parts of town
11:22<supermop>where a regular bus comes in from a village or outskirts and then has a transfer with a more frequent/larger bus or tram
11:22<Flygon>I end up using Trams because the bus drivers end up getting lost as fuck.
11:23<Alkel_U3>sometimes I don't build a train station in the vicinity of a vilage at all and just do this feeder service with a bus
11:23<supermop>whereas before i would have run the less frequent bus all the way into the central stations, trying to slot it in amongst the trams or busses that make more regular trips
11:23<Alkel_U3>like, the train stop is in the middle of nowhere
11:24<supermop>or i would run the tram or large bus all the way out to the end of the route
11:24<supermop>really need TaI and ViV
11:24<Alkel_U3>oh, so that was the question. Well, due to jams sometimes I do that but only in very largecities
11:25<supermop>otherwise every patch of land becomes so dense with passengers that anything other than biggest trams everywhere as often as possible wont work
11:27<Alkel_U3>I usually play with TaI and daylength - what's ViV?
11:27<supermop>villages is villages
11:27<Alkel_U3>oooh, that looks nice
11:29<supermop>i always build my networks backwards - now that the passenger services are all built out, i need to figure out how to run some freights through them
11:30<Alkel_U3>I never figured a good way to mix freight and passangers without daylength of at least 10
11:31<supermop>with viv and tai, you can keep up with lots of outlying villages and hamlets that just get an occasional bus service
11:32<Alkel_U3>I can't wait to run a NG track through some :-)
11:32<supermop>IH NG will never work if your villages is like swedish houses
11:32<supermop>by month 2 1400 villagers are waiting for your 60 passenger train
11:33<Alkel_U3>I haven't played with those - it's not visually appealing to me
11:33<Alkel_U3>it especially doesn't fit well into the original graphics
11:34<Alkel_U3>but I used to play with TTRS and yeah, that was like that
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11:39<supermop>TaI is pretty close in style to original graphics
11:39<supermop>and the lower passenger number is nice for certain styles of play
11:43<Alkel_U3>I like both of those features, yeah
11:44<Alkel_U3>but I know someone who doesn't play with TaI solely becose he can't get over a house changing orientation when a nearby street is rebuilt :-)
11:45<supermop>yeah that part could use some work
11:45<supermop>i think pikka is done with it though
11:45<Alkel_U3>looks like it, unfortunately
11:45<Wolf01>Seems nice, lets merge it
11:46<supermop>add reorienting houses to trunk, Wolf01 ?
11:46<supermop>brb have to go to job site and see what is completely messed up today
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11:54<__ln___>greetings from czechoslovakia
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12:20<frosch123>more steel?
12:24-!-Lejving__ is now known as Lejving
12:28<frosch123>looks like i need a third reactor :o
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12:32<frosch123>yay, fast enough, built it when reactor temperature had dropped to 750
12:34<frosch123>the electric grid doesn't tell you anything about the reactor load, if you ship hot steam to outposts
12:34<frosch123>you have to monitor the reactor temperature
12:34<frosch123>or it all breaks down
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13:20<andythenorth>more deleting I think
13:21<andythenorth>so how did all these people get commit rights? o_O
13:21<Eddi|zuHause> <__ln___> greetings from czechoslovakia <- dangit, he took a time machine to 25 years in the past
13:21<andythenorth>and who else could have commit rights? o-O
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>that was before tt was invented
13:21*andythenorth does *not* want commit rights
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>svn log?
13:23<LordAro>andythenorth: "Wolfolo"
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14:14<Eddi|zuHause>for some reason "Wolfolo" reminds me of age of empires
14:14<Wolf01>That's wololo
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>just a single letter difference
14:18<andythenorth>lo V453000
14:18<andythenorth>is it beer time?
14:18<V453000>hi :)
14:19<Wolf01>You should look for __ln___
14:20<andythenorth>beer is not cold
14:20<andythenorth>wine instead
14:24<frosch123>LordAro: i guess multi-byte constants are find
14:24<frosch123>they are used in so many places, we would notice immediately if behaviour changes
14:24<frosch123>like not being able to load the introame
14:24<andythenorth>we should persuade someone to write tests :P
14:25<LordAro>frosch123: yeah
14:25<LordAro>also what andythenorth said :p
14:25<andythenorth>jenkins -> nightly build -> client-server cluster -> admin port -> GS + AI game
14:25<andythenorth>detecting actual failures would be hard though
14:25<frosch123>andythenorth: there was an idea to build a savegame archive
14:26<Wolf01>OTTD would benefit a lot of some refactoring and modularity
14:26<frosch123>with samegames for each savegame version
14:26<andythenorth>running tests is sometimes easier than making sense of the tests
14:26<frosch123>and automatic loading-resaving with every new version
14:26<andythenorth>we can script enough stuff that we could chaos-monkey or soak test things
14:27<andythenorth>the nice thing: it wouldn’t need any code review :P
14:28<andythenorth>(as a project for new developers)
14:28<Wolf01>I'm sure that simple unit tests will detect a lot of bugs
14:29<Wolf01>Too bad I wasn't able to perform even a simple test
14:29<andythenorth>we found bugs yesterday at work just from writing tests
14:29<Wolf01>Many globals
14:29<andythenorth>writing tests means reading code -> found errors
14:29<frosch123>the paste.o.o python script fails because it does not accept the certificate
14:30<frosch123>Wolf01: we have some integration tests
14:31<frosch123>i wouldn't know how to apply unit tests to ottd
14:31<frosch123>unit tests kind of assume object oriented code, which we don't have
14:31<Wolf01>I do, but OTTD ned extensive refactoring
14:31<Wolf01>Yes, it should be OO
14:32<frosch123>LordAro: <- anyway, if we would remove multibyte constants, i would do it like that
14:33<frosch123>but i do not feel like writing some magic to replace all the usages
14:33<frosch123>(diff likely is broken, i c&p it via clipboard :p)
14:34<_dp_>not just oo, it has to be coded with tests in mind
14:34<_dp_>like singletons are oo too
14:35<frosch123>"singleton" is a fancy name for "global variable"
14:37<_dp_>as any other static stuff
14:40<_dp_>but testable code is far deeper topic than just globals
14:40<andythenorth>unit test <-> integration test <-> functional test
14:40<andythenorth>with some of the boundaries blurred
14:41<andythenorth>unit tests for ottd…surely not? o_O
14:41<frosch123>"functional test" is "manual test"?
14:41<LordAro>frosch123: i can't look at paste because of the cert error :<
14:41<andythenorth>or scripted frosch123
14:41<andythenorth>manual first though
14:41<andythenorth>testing things only humans can understand, initially
14:42<andythenorth>in our case the distinction of integration test and functional test is probably boring semantics
14:44<frosch123>LordAro: 0003 looks really weird to me
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14:47<andythenorth>Wolf01: worth testing? o_O
14:49<Wolf01>Every bug might need to be tested
14:49<LordAro>frosch123: it does, but apparently otherwise memset gets passed a long, or somthing, and it complains about the range of values you're passing it
14:49<andythenorth>Wolf01: I’m picking off the ones that look easy to repro :)
14:49<frosch123>+ memset(statspec->platforms + statspec->lengths, 0, (length - statspec->lengths) * sizeof(*statspec->platforms)); <- LordAro: would that also silence it?
14:49<andythenorth>‘crash after leaving game running for hours’ with no assertion line….boring :P
14:50<andythenorth>we’re not increasing number of grfs, right?
14:50<frosch123>i don't like the (byte) cast since it makes the code kind of wrong. otoh adding a sizeof() would make it more correct
14:50<LordAro>frosch123: not sure without my desktop, it was difficult to get the warning to go away
14:51<LordAro>will be back there in an hour or so
14:51<frosch123>andythenorth: it was slightly increased in 1.7
14:51<andythenorth>it’s not a current goal…? (heading for closure...)
14:52<frosch123>i only know my goals :p
14:54<LordAro>frosch123: alternatively, maybe MemSetT should be used
14:54<frosch123>also good
14:55<LordAro>istr trying that to no effect
14:55<frosch123> /* We expect NULL being 0 here, but C99 guarantees that. */ <- he, i usually cite c++98
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15:01<Eddi|zuHause>uhm... i built office spaces, and suddenly most of my industries are abandoned
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>i guess all the overqualified workers ran away
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>... at least my traffic problems are less now :p
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15:12<supermop>would be interesting to see a passengers vs transported for the whole map
15:12<supermop>to see roughly how much of the regional population has access to transit
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15:40<Eddi|zuHause>129999 inhabitants... how... odd...
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15:47<frosch123>maybe you missed yourself when counting?
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16:08<@planetmaker>supermop, but those statistics are roughly available :) Towns have a population which is announced. And you can check your transported amount
16:09<supermop>only for each town one at a time
16:09<@planetmaker>supermop, if memory serves me well, on a map with like 1M inhabitants, we reached on a coop server once like 200.000 pax transported
16:09<@planetmaker>(it was a one-town map)
16:10<supermop>well to get 100% every house would need to be covered by at least two stations
16:11<supermop>but i meant more as a rough measure of how many people are living out in the hinterlands with no connection to the world, at a glance
16:12<@planetmaker> <--- at the bottom we have 2 population games... but yeah... probably less than 10% transported.
16:12<@planetmaker>How do you define "no connection"?
16:12<_dp_>supermop, citymania client has transported cargo stats and world population in towns list
16:12<_dp_>last one mb vanilla tho
16:13<supermop>something like transported vs passengers produced, but also total population of towns without any connection
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16:13<supermop>measure by towns with no rating, or no passengers transported
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16:14<supermop>i guess you could more exotically try to count every house that is not within the catchment area of a station with passenger service
16:14<supermop>but that sounds really hard
16:16<_dp_>supermop, you can estimate that from transported amount since house production is a % of its population on average
16:16<_dp_>about 50% per month iir
16:18<_dp_>so world population * 50% is about equal to amount of passengers produced by all towns
16:18<andythenorth>so eh, a developer I work with is core Plone contributor. Plone had same issue of less and less core developers => less fun being one of the ones left
16:18<_dp_>if it's 50% that is, don't rly remember exact %
16:18<andythenorth>Plone opened up commit rights to a ~anyone who signed a contributor agreement
16:18<andythenorth>and they have to use pull requests
16:18<andythenorth>and bad commit choices = removal of rights
16:20<andythenorth>they don’t mention it on this page, but apparently that’s how it works :P
16:21<andythenorth>the goal isn’t so much ‘let all the patches in’ as ‘make it more fun to be a developer’
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16:22<_dp_>I coded for Plone on my first work, like 10 years ago, got so fed up with it that never even considered using Plone again xD
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16:22<_dp_>tho most of it was not Plone fault but that we tried to use it for stuff it clearly wasn't designed for
16:22*andythenorth is playing a 10 year game called ‘get out of Plone'
16:22<andythenorth>we built commercial products in it
16:22<andythenorth>in it / on it :P
16:23<_dp_>somewhere around it xD
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16:23<andythenorth>we circumvent most of it
16:23<andythenorth>but kept all of the boilerplate framework and overhead
16:23<andythenorth>worst of all possible worlds :)
16:24<andythenorth>functional tests for everything, and rewrite one piece at a time :P
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16:24<andythenorth>and one day…no more plone
16:27<Wolf01>It seem like we did with the CMS, started to rewrite all our classes to align them to PSR, noticed they were almost like symfony2 ones, started to use those ones, now the CMS is build on symfony2
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16:48<Wolf01>Too much lag to play, better go full netflix, also no chill
16:52<LordAro>andythenorth: i've heard it can work quite well
16:52<LordAro>you can always revert changes, after all
16:54<andythenorth>also, don’t many eyes make shallow bugs? :P
16:55<andythenorth>we have nightly, RC, release
16:55<andythenorth>it’s a pretty careful process
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18:18<Marenz>I just started playing this game the first time
18:19<Marenz>Have some bus system up and running. However, I discovered that one of my stations says "Acccepts: Nothing" (translated, probably not literally that), where as the other stations say "Accepts: Passengers"
18:19<Marenz>Any idea why it wouldn't accept anything?
18:21<Marenz>I also noticed that the bus driving to it seems to never unload its passengers
18:26<LordAro>Marenz: screenshot?
18:27<Wolf01>No houses in the catchement area?
18:29<Marenz>Frankenmünster says "Nimmt an: Nichts" (accepts nothing) where as another station Flensdorf says "Nimmt an: Passagiere" (accepts passengers)
18:29<LordAro>yeah, looks like nothing in the catchment area
18:29<LordAro>some houses only accept "half" a passenger, which rounds down
18:29<Marenz>oh I see
18:30<LordAro>there's an option when you place stations to see catchment area, and what they accept
18:30<Marenz>Does it make sense to have buses drive to multiple stations?
18:31<LordAro>it's ultimately up to you :p
18:31<LordAro>this game is not exactly "hard"
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---Logclosed Thu Aug 17 00:00:16 2017