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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-08-18

---Logopened Fri Aug 18 00:00:18 2017
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02:34<andythenorth>why don’t we sleep more?
02:35<LordAro>in your case, is the answer not related to you?
02:40<andythenorth>well either yes, OR I don’t go to bed early enough
02:55<andythenorth>hmm ticket count has gone up
02:56<andythenorth>_that’s_ not playing the game right :P
02:56<andythenorth>LordAro: can Circle aslo build NRT?
03:08<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: certainly, it's never "playing the game right" if you have only one metric to judge your work on
03:11<andythenorth>oh you want a balanced scorecard? o_O :P
03:11<andythenorth>what’s the balance to ‘reduce ticket to win'
03:12<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: even a "scorecard" is, ultimately, "one metric"
03:13<andythenorth>are you suggesting all things resolve to one metric? o_O
03:14<andythenorth>if I collapse it to ‘winning’ or ‘losing’, that’s inevitably one metric :P
03:14<LordAro>andythenorth: don't see why not, although you'd have to make it "the github way" i.e. a pull request to (currently) my fork
03:14<andythenorth>that bit of github boggles my brain :P
03:15<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the problem with metrics is, they never truely cover the "optimal" case. so once you're done optimizing for that one metric, every action you do towards the true optimal case will look like "unoptimizing" towards that metric
03:15<andythenorth>can’t just point a Circle job at a different remote?
03:15<Eddi|zuHause>so, you have to basically abandon this metric
03:16<LordAro>the config's in the repo, so it has to compare against something
03:16<LordAro>in fact, it'd have to be added regardless
03:16<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you leave me with no counter argument :P
03:18<andythenorth>LordAro: if were using it in production, would the config be in the ottd repo?
03:18*andythenorth should probably just get a Circle account and try
03:19<LordAro>andythenorth: yeah
03:19<LordAro>also, it only seems to build to the master/default branch on github
03:20<LordAro>(without pull request)
03:20<LordAro>tbf though, i doubt you've done anything compiler specific
03:20<LordAro>regression might be broken though :p
03:21<LordAro>but since that requires a graphics set, i've not yet worked out how to solve that
03:21<LordAro>guess i could download latest opengfx, but... ew
03:22<Eddi|zuHause>isn't there a nogfx?
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03:24<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: not afaik
03:25<andythenorth>the game still ships not working out of the box?
03:25<LordAro>andythenorth: regardless, i can't look at it until this evening, see if you can solve it by then :p
03:25<LordAro>andythenorth: bootstrap system still works afaik
03:25<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: depends what you mean with "out of the box"
03:26<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it'll prompt you for automatically downloading a graphics set if you don't have one
03:26<Eddi|zuHause>on most systems
03:26<andythenorth>_probably_ fine
03:26<andythenorth>that is a PITA for automated testing
03:26<andythenorth>although it’s great for testing the download prompt :P
03:27<andythenorth>I might start a github repo for functional tests
03:27<andythenorth>if it works, maybe we could add it as a remote to ottd
03:27<andythenorth>then eventually move it into the project
03:28<LordAro>the regression test is *sort of* functional tests
03:28<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: but still, i seem to remember a "graphics" set specifically for servers, which doesn't actually contain graphics
03:28<LordAro>(runs an ai, checks values are what they are expected)
03:28<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: hmm
03:29<LordAro>without being able to examine the farm.o.o system it's difficult to tell what it does
03:29<andythenorth>do you get any logging output?
03:31<LordAro>andythenorth: see bin/ai/regression
03:31<andythenorth>errr ok :)
03:31*andythenorth will look in a bit
03:31<andythenorth>even some functional testing would seem like a win
03:31*andythenorth wonders about making test case newgrfs
03:31<LordAro>wonder if a dedicated server would be good enough to run the game
03:32<andythenorth>presumably an AI can be made to behave deterministically?
03:32<LordAro>of course
03:32<LordAro>especially when it's given the same save game
03:32<andythenorth>and we can screenshot on deman
03:32<andythenorth>demand *
03:32<andythenorth>we use this a lot
03:32<LordAro>don't really need screenshots, can use the ai to query the gamestate
03:33<andythenorth>I’m thinking about sprite regressions
03:33<andythenorth>and newgrf features specifically
03:33<LordAro>AIs should be able to get any information humans can by looking at the screen, remember
03:33<LordAro>(functional informarion)
03:33*andythenorth not trying to enforce a particular approach :)
03:33<LordAro>sprite regressions... test it yourself and look at it? :p
03:34<andythenorth>just trying to get a sense of what’s wise + possible
03:34<andythenorth>gtg, bbl
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03:34<Wolf01>Sprite regressions might fail a lot in presence of glitches
03:35<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, flickering sprites because of unresolvable sprite sorter issues
03:37<LordAro>screenshota won't catch that
03:51<Wolf01>FFFFFFppsfdfs.... it's already friday
03:52<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, and i'm calling in sick...
03:53<LordAro>i should get to work
03:53<Wolf01>I've achieved nothing this week, I should have meet my friends for a day at the beach and no one show
03:54<Wolf01>Also, I'm totally fine with breaking the town growth to make _dp_ happy
03:54<Wolf01>I could do it, maybe I'll provide a patch even today
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04:35<Wolf01>I need to understand better this one GrowTownWithExtraHouse(t1, TileAddByDiagDir(house_tile, target_dir));
04:35<Wolf01>But I already made town grow houses on those angles
04:35<Eddi|zuHause>what part do you not understand?
04:35<Eddi|zuHause>'s been ages since i looked at it)
04:36<Wolf01>What could happen if I swap DiagDir with Direction
04:36<Wolf01>I tried growing some cities in SE after swapping it and I don't see many problems
04:36<Eddi|zuHause>diagdir is for 8 angles (edges and corners), direction only for edges
04:37<Wolf01>The contrary
04:37<Eddi|zuHause>err, right
04:38<Wolf01>The function checks for distance from edge
04:38<Wolf01>Also if the target tile is house or void
04:38<Wolf01>And build the house
04:39<_dp_>Wolf01, are you looking at ?
04:39<_dp_>I found a bit of a bug in it yesterday, I'll post fix soon
04:39<Wolf01>I think I could just check for DiagDir there
04:40<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: there exist some ancient patches that make towns build houses further away from the road
04:40<Wolf01>It's no use to check for more than 3 tiles when building near edges
04:40<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you can compare with those?
04:41<Wolf01>If I don't understand what the vanilla code mean, I don't think I would understand it better with some ancient patch
04:41<_dp_>building houses further is a bit too much of a deviation from current mechanics imo
04:41<Wolf01>It already does it when replacing 2x2 houses ;)
04:42<Eddi|zuHause>yes. but about checking what functionality they touch, and whether it's the right way to do it
04:42<_dp_>Wolf01, I know, but it's not very likely
04:42<_dp_>in fact it can even walk-replace house to any distance, just chance of that is negligible
04:42<Wolf01>Eddi, I know this, I already changed this code a bit for NRT, the problem is to avoid making more checks than required
04:43<Eddi|zuHause>i touched this code ages ago, when i attempted making towns expand on slopes, instead of flattening everything
04:44<Eddi|zuHause>which i seem to remember ended up as a one-line change
04:44<Wolf01>Yes, this too
04:44<Wolf01>Ok, 3 lines
04:44<Eddi|zuHause>putting a "random(1 in 6)" in front of the "flatten" command
04:45<Wolf01>The problem is counting the neighbours, if I increment the directions I should increment the limit too
04:46<Wolf01>But why should I need to increment the directions here?
04:46<Wolf01>Also, if I already have the house tile, why does it adds twice the same direction?
04:47<_dp_>Wolf01, that a weird part of town growh, with enabled roads it can add two houses in one tick
04:47<_dp_>Wolf01, probably to fill gaps in 3x3 layout
04:47<Wolf01>Could be
04:47<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that code exists
04:48<Eddi|zuHause>if 3 sides of the 3x3 grid are covered, it builds a house in the center
04:48<Eddi|zuHause>(works also without grid)
04:51<_dp_>I've no idea why it only does so with enabled roads but whatever, at least that allows do disable it :p
04:52<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: probably a forgotten corner case when disabling roads was introduced
04:52<Eddi|zuHause>(i think the extra house is older than that)
04:58<Wolf01>Nice that if you don't allow towns to build roads they still don't give a fuck and build roads
04:58<Wolf01>And that's with vanilla 1.7.1
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04:59<Wolf01>I'm comparing the growth
04:59<_dp_>Wolf01, wut, how did you get them to build roads?
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05:00<Wolf01>Scenario editor, build a road layout, fund a town
05:00<Wolf01>So I should fix even that one... later
05:00<_dp_>Wolf01, ah, SE
05:00<Wolf01>After 2 clicks on "expand" it prompts you with "towns can't build roads, enable them in settings > blah"
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05:04<Wolf01>It only does this when funding a town, if you delete all the houses and expand, no more roads
05:05<_dp_>interesting... it checks twice whether layout allows house, once in GrowTownInTile and once in CheckTownBuild*House
05:05<Wolf01>Expected behavior: build only the seed tile road if no road is found near the tile
05:06<Wolf01>Current behavior: don't give a fuck about the setting value
05:07<_dp_>so there is actually no bug in my patch since I only avoided one check
05:07<_dp_>ops, sorry
05:07<_dp_>still, should probably do it properly in case of some future changes
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05:13<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: i'm afraid that change would also make starting a game with no roads enabled to only construct single road towns
05:13<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: i'd rather have a separate option in SE town creation window: empty/small/medium/large
05:13<Wolf01>Yes, my thought too, maybe a check for SE?
05:14<Eddi|zuHause>so empty would create a 0 house, 1 road town
05:14<Eddi|zuHause>leave the rest as is
05:15<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i need to get up and go to the doctor :/
05:15<_dp_>Wolf01, what's up with right picture, does it not work with newgrfs?
05:15<Wolf01>2 different games?
05:15<Wolf01>I didn't set up the grfs on dev
05:16<_dp_>Wolf01, ah, it's unpached
05:17<Wolf01>I'm glad it built the stadium in the 2x2 area which vanilla leaves empty :P
05:20*andythenorth thinks there might be quite a lot of SE feature requests
05:20<andythenorth>I *never* use SE except to test patches
05:20<andythenorth>so I can’t judge them
05:20<andythenorth>probably some consistent themes there though
05:21<Wolf01>Yes, and I have a lot more feature requests for SE
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05:22<Wolf01>Also in all my tests no house was built in the middle tile of the 3x3 grid
05:22<Wolf01>Not a single one
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05:22<Wolf01>Only 2x2 houses
05:22<_dp_>Wolf01, do you test with roads enabled?
05:23<Wolf01>Building a 3x3 grid
05:23<Wolf01>I'm cheching if by a chance the edit I've done breaks the layout
05:24<_dp_>hm, I remember testing it long ago and it worked fine
05:24<andythenorth>so many combinatorial things to test :P
05:24<andythenorth>4 road layout algorithms
05:25<andythenorth>towns allowed to build roads or not
05:25<_dp_>yeah, would be very nice to have some automatic tests for town growth... so many different cases
05:25<andythenorth>town growth speed
05:25<andythenorth>maybe Pikka was right, we should have done newgrf towns
05:25<_dp_>gladly growth speed doesn't rly matter)
05:25<andythenorth>it got bounced because ‘do it in GS'
05:26<andythenorth>but GS is a shit solution for it
05:26<andythenorth>road layout should be a newgrf thing
05:26<Wolf01>I should change the checs
05:26<andythenorth>we should burn some of it down
05:26*andythenorth getting ahead of self
05:27<Wolf01>Vanilla works fine
05:27<andythenorth>placement checks are 100% something that newgrf could have handled
05:27<andythenorth>road layouts....dunno
05:27<Wolf01>I removed the grfs just to check
05:27<_dp_>andythenorth, placement check includes layout check
05:31<andythenorth>also signals should have gone to newgrf
05:31<andythenorth>there is no reason for base game to provide semaphore vs. colour light
05:31<andythenorth>combinatorial crap
05:32<andythenorth>more cattle, fewer pets
05:34<andythenorth>canals should go from base game
05:34<andythenorth>watertypes spec
05:34<andythenorth>keep rivers
05:34<andythenorth>this is completely impossible of course :)
05:34<andythenorth>because savegames
05:35<Wolf01>Convert all semaphores to light signals unless you have a grf loaded?
05:36<andythenorth>data migration?
05:36<Wolf01>Saveload already does stuff, why not?
05:36<andythenorth>works when there is a valid A -> B type conversion I guess
05:37<Wolf01>And you don't need to make new savegames to load on older versions
05:37<andythenorth>I would apply “reduce features, increase moddability, repeat” to OpenTTD
05:37<andythenorth>1 and only 1 way provide built-in
05:37<andythenorth>but configuration points exploitable by newgrf and GS
05:37<andythenorth>and I would probably adjust GS somewhat
05:38<andythenorth>and I would change the savegame promise from ‘perfect replica of your TTO game'
05:38<andythenorth>to “doesn’t actually get corrupted"
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05:46<_dp_>ok, I'm done with that patch, except for one redundant line it's perfectly fine
05:46<_dp_>no bugs found no nothing :/
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05:51<_dp_>anyway, unless it's something big nobody will notice a change in town growth xD
05:53<Wolf01>Why do you check for the corners and don't just try to build a house in all 8 directions instead of the previous 4?
05:54<_dp_>Wolf01, it will drastically change probabilities for choosing house spots
05:54<_dp_>since some spots will be accessible from different number of tiles
05:55<Wolf01>Yes, as far as I can understand your code, when you hit a corner you always build a house there
05:56<_dp_>Wolf01, no, there is a random check, it's a bit hacky but gives equal probability with other spots
05:56<Wolf01>I made it so you can build houses diagonally even on U turns
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05:56<_dp_>if ((cur_rb & ROAD_X) != target_rb) return;
05:57<_dp_>considers one of road bits as random for corner tile
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05:58<_dp_>Wolf01, you mean U turn like with two road turns, not just road dead-end?
05:58<_dp_>Wolf01, what's wrong with that?
05:58<Wolf01>Even the dead end
05:59<_dp_>hm.. that shouldn't work
05:59<Wolf01>Why not?
06:00<_dp_>Wolf01, single roadbit usually means unfinished road, it's quite annoying when towns start to build houses around it
06:01<_dp_>Wolf01, I even had special road tool in cm client before that was changed
06:01<_dp_>Wolf01, that build roads without half-tiles
06:04<_dp_>Wolf01, though, did you make it so it can build on corners of u-turns but not in 4-adjacent tiles?
06:04<_dp_>Wolf01, that's fine, I guess, just weird
06:05<_dp_>Wolf01, can you post an image actually coz I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean here
06:06<Wolf01>Ok, the bottom right one is "valid"
06:07<_dp_>ok, I got it now, I was thinking of completely different thing (one roadbit aka half-road tile)
06:07<Wolf01>TileIndex house_tile = TileAddByDir(tile, RandomDir()); // position of a possible house <- I changed only this line
06:08<Wolf01>RandomDir() instead of RandomDiagDir()
06:08<Wolf01>(I made also the RandomDir function)
06:08<_dp_>but on that picture I'm more worried about houses that are build straight on the end of road
06:08<Wolf01>I would look at the checks to avoid blocking building roads in original and better layouts... on grids already works
06:09<Wolf01>I think that's because I disabled road building by towns, so they just put houses everywhere
06:11<Wolf01>No, it's missing a check
06:11<Wolf01>Vanilla leaves that empty
06:11<_dp_>well, that super annoying feature imo
06:11<_dp_>for anyone who builds layouts manually
06:12<_dp_>and it still can mess up automatic layouts
06:13<_dp_>awful in competitive cb either
06:14<_dp_>you can't just go and destroy house in cb, that's a huge setback
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06:18<Wolf01>Automatic layouts work, now I must fix the original ones
06:20<Wolf01>Meh, even worse
06:24<_dp_>I though of doing 8-tile random when I just started that patch but scrapped that idea pretty fast
06:24<_dp_>except for adding houses in corner it changes a lot of other stuff and none of it in a good way
06:26<Wolf01>With Direction you need to check in 2 more directions for the second tile and not just the next one
06:32<NGC3982>i wrote last night about cement not being transportable with ecs while in early games. i found an old bug that was properly reported, but a very long time ago. do you know if its solved by configuration or something else?
06:34<_dp_>NGC3982, I think cement is transportable on our ecs quest server but that's LL heritage, I've no idea how it works)
06:35<NGC3982>i see
06:36<NGC3982>i just noticed in a single player game and havent looked any further, unfortunately
06:37<_dp_>NGC3982, there should be something in newgrfs that fixes it:
06:38<Wolf01>Is there a way to rotate a diagdir?
06:39<Wolf01>I mean, I have NW direction and converting it to diagdir results in N, I want W too
06:41<_dp_>Wolf01, diagdir is a single direction you probably want something else then
06:41<_dp_>roadbits will do probably
06:43<NGC3982>_dp_: i notice that the bug seems to depend on basic vector ii. interestingly enough, that server uses an older version than me.
06:44<NGC3982>ill try the old one and see if the problem remains.
06:44<_dp_>NGC3982, yeah, it's an ancient server :)
06:44<_dp_>NGC3982, it also has some hacks like universal wagons iirc
06:45<NGC3982>i see
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07:29<__ln___>greetings again from the austro-hungarian empire
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07:31<__ln___>austria is like germany, but with support for credit cards
08:05<@peter1138>need a new mobile phone
08:05<@peter1138>dunno what to get
08:05<andythenorth>there is phone, or there is Android
08:05<andythenorth>I just buy phone, which has a fruit logo on it
08:06<@peter1138>yeah not getting an iphone
08:06<andythenorth>I get whichever one the carrier gives me, then I don’t have to blame myself for the choice
08:06<andythenorth>zero-regret strategy
08:06<@peter1138>i don't have a carrier
08:08<@peter1138>i had a virgin mobile payg sim in 1999
08:08<@peter1138>but lost that a couple of years ago
08:08<andythenorth>everyone else I know seems to buy Samsung
08:08<andythenorth>dunno what it means
08:10<LordAro>people keep talking about wileyfox
08:12<Wolf01>I can't understand people... "how do i make VS recognize ///< comment as a doxygen comment and not xml?" "put a \ before the <"... "maybe without changing the code?"
08:13<andythenorth>can VS not learn language semantics? :P
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08:14<Wolf01>VS defaults to xml when /// is used because it can create the documentation by itself
08:15<andythenorth>why are timetables?
08:15<andythenorth>they are the spawn of the devil as far as OpenTTD goes
08:15<andythenorth>someone convince me they have a purpose? o_O
08:15<Wolf01>I'm not able to use them
08:16<FLHerne>You need them to make your non-full-load vehicles not clump
08:16<Wolf01>I only find downsides when I try
08:16<andythenorth>they don’t actually work
08:16<andythenorth>they’re broken
08:16<FLHerne>They're about the most cumbersome and unsuitable way to do that, but eh
08:16<andythenorth>I was going to file a bug report, but I was told that what I was reporting was expected behaviour
08:17<andythenorth>there is some magic hotkey which is supposed to space the vehicles out, magically
08:17<andythenorth>but it flat out doesn’t work for ships
08:17<FLHerne>With the new-ish auto-start-dates, and tweaking up the duration so everything's not always late, they work
08:17<@peter1138>needs constant micromanaging
08:17<FLHerne>Oh, I think I've noticed that
08:17<FLHerne>(usually not enough ships on a route for it to make any particular difference)
08:18<andythenorth>eh, back channel chat is naughty
08:18<andythenorth>but most of this is just wrong
08:18<andythenorth>control pax/cargo production: newgrf
08:18<andythenorth>control population growth: should be newgrf
08:18<FLHerne>Worth noting he's got his own timetable patch, which is actually sane
08:18<andythenorth>station rating: newgrf
08:18<FLHerne>If you're the kind of person who wants micromanaged timetables
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08:19<andythenorth>I don’t disagree with his game goals
08:19<FLHerne>(whereas the current version is pretty useless either for micromanaging or just-working)
08:19<andythenorth>well I do, but not virulently
08:19<@peter1138>i was asking a few months ago but nobody could explain timetables and what these patches do
08:19<andythenorth>I disagree virulently with source code adjustments to make a particular play style
08:20<andythenorth>it’s every kind of wrong
08:20<andythenorth>peter1138 timetables /\o/\ meh
08:21<@peter1138>i never managed to make the current timetables do anything useful
08:21<andythenorth>I use sometimes ‘wait for 10 days’ when starting buses or ships on a route
08:21<andythenorth>because they’re too big for full load
08:21<andythenorth>in small towns
08:22<FLHerne>‎<‎andythenorth‎>‎ control pax/cargo production: newgrf <- does FIRS have a parameter for that now?
08:22<FLHerne>Atm I have a patch for that, because "fix it with a newgrf" only helps if you didn't already override all the behaviour with another one
08:23<Wolf01>TF tries to send new vehicles to all the stations when starting multiple vehicles, trying to keep the separation and a coherent waiting time for cargo
08:23<andythenorth>you have to fork the newgrf
08:23<andythenorth>mods should be widely forked
08:23<FLHerne>Well, yes
08:23<andythenorth>like SPI, and Auz Industries, and Leif stopped bothering me with suggestions I wouldn’t do and forked a Norwegian FIRS
08:23<andythenorth>that’s the go
08:24<FLHerne>And forking a huge newgrf for orthogonal minor tweaks is better than having an option?
08:24<FLHerne>Different industries is different
08:24<andythenorth>I have three different views on this, and they’re not incompatible
08:25<FLHerne>I mean, if the point of your grf is to add industries, and you want different industries, of course you want a different grf
08:25<andythenorth>1. FIRS provides _some_ control over production via the supplies boost parameter
08:25<andythenorth>2. fork it
08:25<FLHerne>But the base amount of cargo you want isn't really tied to any industry grf
08:25<FLHerne>Hey, different idea
08:25<andythenorth>3. there should be a set of Economy methods in GS
08:26<andythenorth>the Economy methods in GS should dump an economy level byte onto each house or industry tile
08:26<FLHerne>Eh, GS is an even worse solution to anything
08:26<andythenorth>newgrf should be able to optionally use that for production
08:26<FLHerne>Because you can have exactly one, and creating n^2 scripts would be insane
08:26<andythenorth>well GS is broken currently
08:26<FLHerne>(more than)
08:26<andythenorth>make a counter proposal?
08:27<FLHerne>Just have a multiplier, either for production or vehicle capacity...
08:27<andythenorth>in the newgrf?
08:27<FLHerne>Stick it in a newgrf var like the base costs if it makes people happy
08:28<FLHerne>No, in the game
08:28<andythenorth>and, then...?
08:28<andythenorth>throw away newgrf production control? o-O
08:28<FLHerne>Because there's not really any relation between newgrf industry strategies and the player's network-design preferences
08:28<andythenorth>or something else?
08:29<FLHerne>No, literally just a multiplier on top of whatever the newgrf says
08:29<FLHerne>I guess that might break strings
08:29<andythenorth>do you know how newgrf production works? o_O
08:29<FLHerne>Well, not break, but make-inaccurate
08:29<andythenorth>a multiplier could be done
08:30<andythenorth>but it would be a car crash
08:30<FLHerne><reads spec>
08:30<andythenorth>you have three places to deal with production
08:30<andythenorth>also two text callbacks
08:30<FLHerne>Would mess up balancing, so <or vehicle capacity> was the better idea probably
08:30<andythenorth>you also have to factor in existing newgrfs that have concepts like refusing acceptance
08:31<andythenorth>and limited total production reserves for mines etc
08:31<andythenorth>vehicle capacity factor is interesting
08:31<andythenorth>but why do it in the game?
08:32<NGC3982>has there ever been any discussion on adding weather to ottd?
08:32<andythenorth>yes :D
08:32<andythenorth>let’s discuss that
08:32<FLHerne>Because otherwise every newgrf needs to add such a parameter (or users will grumble, or locally patch their preferred newgrf or the game)
08:33<andythenorth>FLHerne: it would save me doing it in all my newgrfs yes
08:33<andythenorth>I can’t see many downsides, except it would “need” to be implemented both globally, and on a per-grf basis
08:33<andythenorth>and maybe on a per-company basis in MP
08:33<FLHerne>My general thought is that if something would be relevant to essentially all newgrfs of the type, it makes sense to have a global setting
08:33<_dp_>I understand "should be mod" thing but not in case of newgrfs, newgrs are terrible for any king of logic or configuration
08:34<andythenorth>that’s what GS is for
08:34<andythenorth>or admin port
08:34<andythenorth>GS is unusable of course
08:34<FLHerne>Otherwise you change the parameters for some grfs and it unbalances everything because they don't have quite the same effect
08:35<_dp_>yeah, they are kind of better suited except they can't do shit
08:35<andythenorth>nobody wants to make the platonic perfect one-GS-to-rule-them-all
08:35<andythenorth>so it’s not really used
08:35<FLHerne>Would it be possible to have GS's claim 'write' access for a specific segment of the API?
08:35<andythenorth>AIs with a UI for commands would be better
08:36<andythenorth>literally the AI has a defined interface for player-triggered actions
08:36<andythenorth>with appropriate buttons in the GUI
08:36<FLHerne>e.g. you could have a GS that asked set town growth, but promised not to do anything else
08:36<_dp_>It's mostly same with newgrfs, eg you can't have two newgrfs tweaking same industry so you eventually had to do one mega-grf
08:36<FLHerne>That way you could add orthogonal GSs
08:36<andythenorth>so much of this crap could be scripted
08:37<andythenorth>like this ‘go to depot and sell’ thing
08:37<andythenorth>that’s just an AI task
08:37<FLHerne>Yeah, but at least you can have many newgrfs that do different things
08:37<andythenorth>company scripts
08:37<andythenorth>scoped to company objects
08:37<FLHerne>Whereas currently, you can have exactly one GS that does one thing, unless it's an insane megalunaticGS that does everything and the kitchen sink in an unmaintainable way
08:38<andythenorth>it’s failed to win
08:38<andythenorth>unlike newgrf, or even AI
08:38<andythenorth>GS is a desert
08:38<FLHerne>Well, there's no market for GSs that just do small clever tweaks
08:39<andythenorth>well it would be an insane thing to do
08:39<FLHerne>Because if you have a GS that just does a small clever tweak, that's your GS allotment
08:39<andythenorth>who’s going to use them?
08:40<_dp_>FLHerne, yeah, I thought of pretty much the same api claiming yesterday. though more in a context of some newgrf-like gs that's client-side
08:41<_dp_>FLHerne, you also need ability to override claims of other mods though to be able to extend them
08:43<andythenorth>or built-in isolation
08:43<andythenorth>or it just breaks if you have conflicting GS
08:46<andythenorth>doesn’t have to have a bureacracy layer
08:46<andythenorth>if you load two newgrfs that mess with cargos, your game breaks
08:46<andythenorth>players encounter this frequently, but no kittens die
08:47<andythenorth>too much poka-yoke stops things shipping
08:47<_dp_>andythenorth, aren't there enough change-newgrf-ingame bugs already?
08:47<andythenorth>yes, but that’s a different point
08:48<_dp_>andythenorth, idk, looks same too me, people click stuff and expect it to work
08:48<andythenorth>they do
08:48<andythenorth>very sensible goal they have
08:49*andythenorth looks for FS to close
08:51<_dp_>partial ordering seems to be fine for a bureacracy layer here
08:52<_dp_>you specify what grfs you override and if game can't determine priorities for each api than setup is incompatible
08:52<andythenorth>not sure how GS would reserve blocks of commands
08:52<andythenorth>just reserve writes?
08:52<andythenorth>seems prone to a cluster fuck to me
08:53<andythenorth>collaboration between plugins is usually a dead end
08:53<_dp_>andythenorth, by api here I mean like newgrf callbacs not commands
08:53<andythenorth>common solution is to put each plugin in a walled garden
08:53<andythenorth>newgrf callbacks? o_O
08:54<andythenorth>is there some layer of control you think is missing _dp_ ? o_O
08:55<_dp_>andythenorth, not sure what do you mean but I'm mostly talking here about some imaginary nwgrf-like logic done with gs))
08:55<andythenorth>what would it control?
08:56<_dp_>andythenorth, same things newgrfs do, just more and better :)
08:56<andythenorth>not sure what’s gained
08:56<andythenorth>expand the idea? o_O
08:57<andythenorth>is this for towns and industries, or everything or what?
08:57<_dp_>well, it's pretty vague of an idea, haven't though it much, but I'll try
08:57<_dp_>basically, replace newgrf logic part with GS
08:58<_dp_>so you'll be able to program newgrf logic in squirrel
08:58<andythenorth>what’s the upsides?
08:58<_dp_>and let them somehow interact/reuse api of other grfs
09:00<_dp_>andythenorth, having some sensible language in which you can write extensible code
09:00<_dp_>also in this case I would probably want for server to be able to push such script on client
09:01<_dp_>not a full grf with resources but just script
09:01<andythenorth>probably better to call them mods here
09:01<andythenorth>grf is too specific
09:01<andythenorth>this would be a proposal to abolish newgrf?
09:02<Eddi|zuHause>man, trips to the doctor always take foreeever
09:02<_dp_>andythenorth, not necessarily abolish, just overhaul logic part. probably could be even done in a backwards compatible way
09:03<andythenorth>I think there’s a scripting gap, but I’m not sure what porting newgrf to squirrel gains us?
09:04<Eddi|zuHause>probably nothing but trouble
09:04<andythenorth>let the idea run
09:04<_dp_>btw, how is complex logic currently done in grf. like finding distance to nearest water tile? is there some kind of programming language in nml?
09:05<_dp_>or is it mostly hacks?
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>you rip people out of their "perfectly fine" existing development environment, while at the same time critical functionality will be missing in the new one
09:05<andythenorth>it’s a defined API
09:05<andythenorth>it’s not complex logic
09:05<andythenorth>callback -> vars -> conditions -> results
09:06<_dp_>andythenorth, oh, so openttd core does the search?
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: the problem is that squirrel and grf are based on two fundamentally different mindset. squirrel (ai/gs) is a program that interacts with the game through commands, while grf is a set of callbacks that get interacted with by the game
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: so one is active, the other one passive
09:06<andythenorth>if there’s a var providing what you need, openttd gets it
09:06<andythenorth>if there’s no var, you have to create your own checks using the vars you do have
09:07<milek7>we can have callbacks in squirrel, too
09:07<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, by gs here I just mean squirrel language, doesn't even have to be squirrel any other decent one will do
09:07<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, ofc server-side command-controlling part has nothing to do with it
09:08<_dp_>milek7, in current GS callbacks aren't that useful
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>milek7: maybe, but it would just be another layer on top, instead of the existing deeply integrated callbacks
09:08<_dp_>milek7, they are more like notifications
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>and some of the callbacks are performance critical
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09:11<Eddi|zuHause>and you will not resolve the difference that squirrel is an interpeted language, while grf is a bytecode language
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09:12<milek7>what that changes?
09:12<milek7>squirrel is probably also compiled to bytecode
09:13<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, it's more of an implementation thing than a fundamental issue
09:13<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, java and c# seem to be decently fast
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>and then we haven't even discussed how you get all the sprite data into your squirrel program
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: but "decent" still means a factor of 2 behind optimized native code
09:14<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, depends
09:14<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, there are cases when jit can do better
09:15<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, but I'm not a fan of java or c# either
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: lets not be too nitpicky about a random statement that might have been true 15 years ago when i heard about it :p
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09:18<_dp_>btw, js is stupidly fast nowdays
09:18<_dp_>I wish they put that effort in optimizing python instead xD
09:20<milek7>i think 'mods' should be able to override almost any core function and poke at structures
09:20<milek7> but it is hard to do without giving it ability to execute arbitrary code
09:20*_dp_ has a random idea of integrating openttd with llvm
09:24<milek7>PNaCl for openttd? ;p
09:24<_dp_>milek7, WebAssembly :p
09:29<FLHerne>_dp_: ISTR that the newgrf sprite callbacks are a large proportion of the rendering time already
09:29<FLHerne>(I think it's in the thread with cirdan's SSE blitters?)
09:30<andythenorth>there is an impression that a large proportion of time is spent resolving sprites
09:31<andythenorth>and in many cases they can’t be cached because newgrf
09:31<andythenorth>this may or may not be FUD
09:31<andythenorth>I’ll see if I can find the post
09:31<_dp_>I know for sure one of my zoning patches lags like crazy on callbacks, but for vanilla idk
09:32<andythenorth> Train::GetImage
09:35*andythenorth is fairly confident that the problem with scripting isn’t because of the choice of language
09:35<_dp_>why on earth does newgrf require a logic there
09:35<_dp_>I mean I have and idea why but that seems a poor api choice to me
09:35<andythenorth>that horse bolted
09:35<FLHerne>_dp_: Because having different sprites for trains is sort of the one fundamental newgrf thing? :P
09:36<andythenorth>it wasn’t obviously fundamental that we had to animate them
09:36<andythenorth>that choice could have been made differently
09:36<_dp_>FLHerne, yeah, but shouldn't it be more of a "set sprite" api than "quick, what sprite do we need to show"?
09:36<andythenorth>for performance reasons
09:36<FLHerne>(and changing them based on unpredictable conditions is used for all sorts of things like tilting and extra-long multi-vehicle carriages and...)
09:36<andythenorth>_dp_: they’re equivalent?
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09:37<_dp_>andythenorth, not in terms of speed :p
09:37<andythenorth>how do you know which sprite to set?
09:37<FLHerne>_dp_: Yeah, but the union of variables used by any train newgrf to pick a sprite is going to be "all of them"
09:37<_dp_>andythenorth, if you mean animations then take animating logic out of grf, let grf just set animation sequence
09:38<FLHerne>So you need to redo the logic every time anything changes, which is every tick anyway
09:38<andythenorth>_dp_: I would have banned animation even
09:38<_dp_>though honestly I know way too little about newgrfs to seriously propose anything here
09:38<andythenorth>and only change sprites on triggers
09:38<andythenorth>like load / unload
09:38<andythenorth>but no
09:39<andythenorth>we must for authors have ability to change sprites on totally arbitrary conditions
09:39<andythenorth>like age of vehicle, current speed, current reliability, tracktype, slope value, corner value, month of year etc
09:40<FLHerne>How else will you know when the wagons ought to have snow piled on them?
09:40<supermop_>i randomly change exhaust pipes based on groups of probabilities based on build year
09:41<supermop_>was a lot of work and you can't even really notice
09:41<_dp_>pfff, yeah, now I get the drift...
09:41<andythenorth>or if the slug is hungry
09:41<supermop_>also change cab livery based n if you buy vehicle in the preview period
09:41<andythenorth>could have just been done on triggers
09:41<andythenorth>then cached until next trigger
09:41<supermop_>which was supposed to be an easter egg but i dont think anyone would notice
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09:42<supermop_>those are all done at vehicle purchase though
09:42<_dp_>slug eats cpu and he still is hungry? :/
09:43<andythenorth>if the sprite chain was just action 3 -> action 1 then we’d be laughing
09:43<andythenorth>but no, we have varact 2 for fun
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09:47<_dp_>if game starts to lag skip more getimage calls and use last value
09:51<_dp_>basically, gradual degradation instead of optimization
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: the tricky part about skipping things is that they might be gamestate relevant, and thus desync
09:55<FLHerne>That would cause very odd appearance when going around corners
09:56<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, yeah, but GetImage doesn't seem to be gamestate relevant. or rather it shouldn't be
09:57<_dp_>do newgrfs even have an internal state?
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09:57<_dp_>I guess there is some newgrf storage in savegames
09:57<_dp_>but can't think of any grf that uses it
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09:58<Eddi|zuHause>there are "parameters" that can be changed during initialisation, but not runtime. and then there are item-dependent permanent storage, and each callback has temporary storage
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>(temporary storage is discarded after the callback ran)
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10:02<NGC3982>for a person well endowed in the perks of irc, its puzzling that andy still do that quit/join thing.
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10:13<@planetmaker>_dp_, there's permant storage. E.g. industry newgrfs make use of that for production. Or houses for deciding looks
10:13<@planetmaker>industries is as such game-critcal
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10:27<andythenorth>lo planetmaker
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10:33<@planetmaker>o/ :)
10:34<V453000>yo humenz
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10:44<V453000>this weekend I hope to finish my palette converter >
10:44<andythenorth>such hopes
10:44*andythenorth sat in van-office
10:45<andythenorth>watching weather
10:46<andythenorth>V453000 sensible family car
10:46<andythenorth>also current office :P
10:47<andythenorth>not actually mine, I don’t have big alloys
10:47<V453000>sounds nice
10:47<andythenorth>has 240v power
10:47<V453000>the problem is that when you buy a car like this then family is going to be packing a lot of shit without restraints
10:47<andythenorth>happens anyway
10:47<V453000>and you are going to be the one who carries it into the car every weekend from 4th floor back and forth :D
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10:48<V453000>is why I'm excusing myself for having a smaller car
10:50<andythenorth>also got
10:50<andythenorth>super small
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10:56<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: if you're still interested in cities skylines, it's currently -75% on steam
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10:57<Wolf01>I should purchase the bundle
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, but the bundle still misses the 2 or 3 latest dlcs
10:58<andythenorth>planetmaker: want to play ‘close the tickets'?
10:58<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause has proved we can’t win that game ever, but eh
10:58<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it might still be worth playing "unwinnable" games for a while
10:59<@peter1138>is the base game no good?
10:59<andythenorth>peter1138, yes £23! that is how much a laptop stand costs for a ford transit
10:59<andythenorth>funny you mentioned it
10:59<supermop_>sounds cheap
11:00<supermop_>feel like only a commercial user would want a laptop stand in a commercial van
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11:00<supermop_>so they'd be able to gouge the price a bit
11:00<supermop_>or worse - a government customer
11:00<andythenorth>it’s actually £231
11:00<andythenorth>or so
11:01<supermop_>still sounds cheap for govt use
11:01<V453000>iz win
11:01<V453000>allowing colours works :>
11:02<andythenorth> ??
11:02<@peter1138>colouring? rgb company colours?
11:02<JGR_>Reading up a bit on the GRF GetImage() discussion above, it is possible to cache the result in most cases, in a way that removes the performance problem for most GRFs. There is a (somewhat hacky) patch in my patchpack which does this.
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11:04<andythenorth>how do you do it?
11:04<andythenorth>or do I have to read the patch? :)
11:05<andythenorth>so do we need hyperlinks on buy menu for vehicles?
11:05<andythenorth>and if so, can we have them for industries also?
11:05<andythenorth>and maybe houses, on get info?
11:05<andythenorth>also town names, if they’re real
11:05<supermop_>can i make a newgrf thaat some how scams peoples credit cards?
11:05<andythenorth>yes, but not easily
11:06<supermop_>squid ate phishing link
11:06<andythenorth>however we could with newgrf hyperlinks
11:06<andythenorth>“click here to upgrade this vehicle”
11:06<supermop_>+1 for feature
11:06<andythenorth>then take credit card details
11:06<andythenorth>then run away
11:06<andythenorth>really easy
11:06<JGR_> and are the commits
11:07<andythenorth>also simple griefing
11:07<andythenorth>it’s a CB, so I could change the url arbitrarily
11:07<andythenorth>such fun
11:07<andythenorth>so that one stays open then
11:07<andythenorth>such important feature
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11:07<andythenorth>changing the hotkeys?
11:08<JGR_>If I remember rightly, it checks which variables are checked in the varaction2, and if they're all on a whitelist and there are no callbacks the sprite ID is cached
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11:08*andythenorth wonders
11:09<andythenorth>won’t changing the hotkeys kind of piss people off?
11:09<andythenorth>is there no way to over-ride them per player?
11:13<_dp_>andythenorth, can change them in hotkeys.cfg
11:14<andythenorth>I am trying to find an objection to that :P
11:15<andythenorth> nah, none
11:15<@peter1138>i did something with caching and it made it slower :p
11:15<andythenorth>where are liveries in newgrf spec?
11:16<@peter1138>cargo refits
11:16<andythenorth>so how does the union of available subtypes work then :|
11:16<andythenorth>headfuck stuff
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: (from memory) for each cargo there's a callback that defines the number of subtypes by repeatedly calling it with an increased number, and if it doesn't return a valid string it's the end of the list
11:19<andythenorth>well it doesn’t work for George :)
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>yes, because the game calculates the intersection not the union
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>intersection by string-id
11:20<andythenorth>well it’s not good enough
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>you could calculate the union in the refit window, and when you select a non-universal subtype, then the selection at the top of the window could reflect this
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>by greying out or so
11:26<V453000>which thing will the break break at line 6? :D ... does it break just the if, or the whole for cycle starting on line2?
11:26<V453000>actually it makes no sense to have it
11:29<V453000>so with default settings (using all but noact colours, cc1 and cc2 are used) atm vs
11:29<V453000>and vs
11:30<andythenorth>V453000: which one do you want me to say is better? o_O
11:30<V453000>one is 32bpp
11:30<V453000>the other is 8bpp
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11:31<andythenorth>should I prefer one to other?
11:31<V453000>not necessarily
11:31<V453000>just demonstrating current state of teh converter
11:31<andythenorth>32bpp is better currently
11:31<andythenorth>but only because of light temperature
11:32<V453000>now I can just go and say 'disable this specific colour in this specific image'
11:32<V453000>getting those beige colours is damn hard
11:32<V453000>also I didn't know my landscape has any colour XD
11:33<andythenorth>seems it does
11:36<andythenorth>such a cluster fuck
11:37<andythenorth>V453000 how do you do liveries?
11:37<andythenorth>with like, date-sensitivity, and stuff
11:37<andythenorth>and changing by engine
11:37<andythenorth>and also allowing refits of power and stuff by livery
11:37<V453000>I do random colours
11:38<andythenorth>yes, but that’s not realistic
11:38<V453000>even random shapes for some wagons
11:38<V453000>yeah exactly :)
11:38<andythenorth>also not realistic
11:38<Wolf01>Eddi, what does the deluxe edition contains?
11:38<V453000>it's just nice
11:38<andythenorth>V453000 I don’t think you’re even trying properly
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11:39*andythenorth wonders how to give all the historical model railroad sets the liveries they so badly want
11:39<andythenorth>subtypes are an absolute disaster of a hack
11:39<andythenorth>but all alternatives seem to just be ‘subtypes, renamed'
11:40<andythenorth>because o/c, the livery can’t just be the sprites
11:40<andythenorth>it also has to affect buy cost, run cost, power, capacity, speed, cargo etc
11:40<V453000>I think they should just randomize sprite upon purchase
11:40<andythenorth>because reality
11:40<V453000>XD OK
11:40<V453000>well you can randomize some of those things upon purchase too
11:41<andythenorth>this dumb shit bothers me
11:42<andythenorth>like, it should have a decent solution
11:42<V453000>livery with so many changes sounds to me like it should just be a different vehicle id
11:42<V453000>why not that way?
11:44<andythenorth>ah fuck knows
11:44*andythenorth is actually depressed by this
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11:46<andythenorth>such 1st world problems :)
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11:47<V453000>honestly I find this really dumb
11:47<V453000>either it's just visual or it isn't
11:47<V453000>if visual, randomize graphics or give them some other sense, purely graphically
11:47<V453000>if not visual, have different ID
11:48<andythenorth>nah all the shit has to be changed
11:48<V453000>yeah that's the wrong approach
11:48<andythenorth>yeah, but it’s the prevailing approach
11:48<andythenorth>this isn’t being mean about any specific developer :P
11:48<andythenorth>there are loads of people busy being wrong
11:49<andythenorth>there is nothing else to say
11:49*andythenorth biab
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11:59<andythenorth>van office
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12:29<andythenorth>is phone?
12:30*andythenorth biab eh
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12:38<V453000>:> disabled gray, mauve and the metallic gray
12:39<V453000>next up: ability to enable/disable individual IDs
12:39<V453000>now it uses some stringcodes for colours in all shades each
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13:02<V453000>aaaand explicitly allowed indexes 0-5 on top of disallowed grays, mauve, metal grays
13:07<LordAro>just segfaulted ottd
13:07<LordAro>probably shouldn't do that
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13:12<LordAro>oh wait, no, it segfaults trying to write the crash screenshot
13:17<Wolf01>I was thinking to move the global variables to a static class and make them private with accessors, but what could be the benefit?
13:17<LordAro>very little
13:17<LordAro>this isn't java
13:19<LordAro>frosch123: quak
13:19<Wolf01>Oh, quak
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13:27<andythenorth>bannon is out
13:27*andythenorth doesn’t normally politics
13:32<frosch123>who is bannon?
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13:36<frosch123>ah, another pawn
13:48<andythenorth>apparently this wasn’t popular
13:48<andythenorth>with the leader of the free world
13:52<frosch123>ah, i thought you need to fire someone whenever something else causes trouble
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>that was 2000 years ago
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>well, probably not
13:54<frosch123>did you attend personally?
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: was bannon the guy who owned this alt-right/fake-news site?
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>and who now basically said he thinks the people using that site are crazy?
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13:56<LordAro>andythenorth: heh
13:57<supermop_>Eddi|zuHause: not far off
13:58<supermop_>he was an editor at a dubious 'news' site that is essentially all alt-right etc
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>that's exactly what i said?
13:59<supermop_>i don't know if he explicitly said that about those readers though, as he seemed to hold basically their beliefs as well
13:59<supermop_>unless he said it very recently, which would be news to me
13:59<supermop_>he always came across as a bit of a raving zealot himself
14:02<andythenorth>LordAro: :P
14:03<LordAro>frosch123: if you can investigate how farm.o.o is setup, that'd be much appreciated
14:04<LordAro>i'd imagine it's just got an ancient version of ogfx hidden away somewhere
14:04<supermop_>i worry though that removing the obvious zealot to replace with a discrete zealot won't be much of an improvement
14:04<andythenorth>we don’t ship ogfx because...?
14:04<LordAro>bandwidth, iirc
14:05<frosch123>the installer can download ogfx
14:05<LordAro>not from the commandline, afaict
14:05<frosch123>also ottd can download it itself when starting without baseset
14:06<LordAro>in fact, i'm not sure how to trigger bootstrap, i'm just getting a "Error: Failed to find a graphics set. Please acquire a graphics set for OpenTTD. See section 4.1 of readme.txt."
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14:07<frosch123>with "from the commandline" you mean starting a server without gui?
14:07<LordAro>that's what i'm trying, i.e. `make regression`
14:08<frosch123>can you download nogfx?
14:09<LordAro>it doesn't exist?
14:10<LordAro>that doesn't seem to be advertised anywhere
14:10<frosch123>possible :)
14:11<frosch123>maybe intentional, so dummies do not enable it via the gui, and can't figure out how to disable it again
14:11<LordAro>well indeed
14:12<frosch123>but you can also apt-get install openttd-opengfx
14:12<LordAro>but i thought there was some sort of builtin bootstrap process? why can't i trigger that?
14:13<frosch123>it only has a gui
14:13<frosch123>it shows some window: you are about to download stuff from the internet
14:13<frosch123>ottd is very data-conservative
14:13<frosch123>it doesn't phone home
14:13<LordAro>yeah, but i can't even run that locally
14:13<LordAro>it just stops with the above error
14:13<frosch123>it worked at some point :)
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14:14<frosch123>it works for me
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14:14<Shoshonite>speaking of dummies, I have been compiling a newGRF and the number of orphaned sprites seems to increase by 1 everytime I compile. I am concerned my computer is caught to some terrible sprite death loop. Is this common? known? No observed conflicts yet
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14:15<frosch123>do you change the filename of your source graphics every time?
14:16<frosch123>orphaned sprites are sprites which were once used by the grf, but are no longer and the source has not been updated either
14:16<Shoshonite>I was messing with sprite location in the source
14:16<frosch123>ah, true, that also causes orphanes ones
14:17<Shoshonite>andythenorth told me not to do it, but I dont listen well
14:17<frosch123>it reencodes the sprites with new offsets, but keeps the old sprites with the old offsets in the cache
14:17<frosch123>anyway, they will vanish once you change a single real pixel
14:18<Shoshonite>cool, so this is more a TNG transporter spliting accident and less the dead away team members problem.
14:19*andythenorth has never seen this issue :)
14:19<andythenorth>let’s close some more FS
14:19<andythenorth>while we all wait for my deliveroo to arrive
14:20<andythenorth>it is
14:20<andythenorth>do we care?
14:20<Shoshonite>food keeps the meatself alive = good
14:22<LordAro>i can't say i've ever noticed the builtin cursor being slow
14:22<LordAro>it's a purely SDL thing, iirc, so if they're having trouble with ottd they'll be having trouble with a load of other stuff as well
14:23<LordAro>that said, it's not uncommon to have an option to use the OS cursor
14:23<andythenorth>my cursor is slow
14:23<andythenorth>I’m used to it :P
14:24<andythenorth>can I close this as ‘wall of text’?
14:24<andythenorth>probably not
14:25<LordAro>aircraft range has been implemented?
14:25<frosch123>kind of, no idea whether someone plays with it
14:25<frosch123>it's like airport noise
14:25<LordAro>istr something using it
14:26<LordAro>something pikka made, maybe?
14:26<frosch123>yes, av8/9 does
14:26<frosch123>no idea which version
14:26<frosch123>possibly the newest one with the 3 planes
14:26<Supercheese>airport noise is good feature
14:26<Supercheese>airplane range is bad feature
14:27<Supercheese>well, maybe only mediocre feature
14:27<frosch123>LordAro: port to sdl2, use os cursor with our sprites
14:28<LordAro>ottd's rendering really doesn't port well to sdl2
14:30<LordAro> omg
14:31<frosch123>that's a private link
14:31<andythenorth>there’s some crap about needing special orders for aircraft range
14:32<andythenorth>and a special visual display of it
14:32<andythenorth>can I just close all that?
14:32<andythenorth>Supercheese: I closed one of your FS suggestions I think :)
14:32<LordAro> how about this?
14:32<frosch123>andythenorth: setting up aircraft orders is a pain
14:32<Supercheese>yes, I believe you did
14:32<Supercheese>and I believe I agreed
14:32<andythenorth>I just click ‘go-to’ and choose an airport frosch123 :)
14:32<andythenorth>Supercheese: you are in an ever-growing exclusive club ;)
14:33<frosch123>LordAro: most seem to compile now, compared to yesterday
14:33<Supercheese>the "There's a Patch for That™" club doesn't seem that exclusive :P
14:34<frosch123>heh, the regression is apparently really fast if you do not need to scan 1400 grfs
14:36<andythenorth>this dies
14:36<andythenorth>towns should have been newgrfed :)
14:36<andythenorth>we don’t need so many town algorithms
14:40<V453000>0.0.3 plans: - migrate to blender, - rework postproduction pipeline, - redefine all sprites to different (more, smaller) filenames
14:40<V453000>sounds like totally not redoing everyhing XD
14:40<andythenorth>just redo everything
14:41<supermop_>i like the suggestion to make plane crashes more spectacular
14:41<V453000>haha mop
14:41<supermop_>with fireball skidding down the runway
14:41<andythenorth>it’s very low cost to like suggestions :)
14:41<andythenorth>doesn’t make them likely to happen :)
14:42<supermop_>plane crashes: reduced/none/all the time
14:42<andythenorth>I just use the cheat
14:43<supermop_>lets add planes crashing in mid air, or destroying property on the ground
14:43<supermop_>or clipping the wings of other planes while taxiing to gate
14:44<supermop_>wing clip should also result in fireball
14:44<supermop_>also breakdowns should use the explosion instead of spark
14:45<supermop_>ships exploding at sea for no reason
14:45<andythenorth>I rejected rthat too
14:45<supermop_>large ship has x% of crash when docking at small dock
14:46<andythenorth>still true?
14:46<andythenorth>peter1138: ^ :D
14:48<LordAro>doesn't that predate NoAI?
14:48<andythenorth>NFI :)
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14:51<@peter1138>i wonder
14:51<@peter1138>probably never made it :p
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14:53<andythenorth>well OP doesn’t care
14:54<andythenorth>probably just close it
14:54*andythenorth thinks
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>cb18 for trains was never implemented
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14:55<Eddi|zuHause>only for stations, i think
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14:56<andythenorth>so it’s TTDP only, or what?
14:56<@peter1138>i probably have a patch for it that'll never work because it predates noai
14:56<andythenorth>sack it? Nobody cares
14:56<@peter1138>basically it tells the ai which is best
14:56<@peter1138>but who cares
14:56<andythenorth>why would I even do that?
14:56<andythenorth>stupid grf authors trying to control even what the AI builds?
14:56<@peter1138>i assume noais choose themselves
14:57<@peter1138>some sets have special ai-only vehicles
14:57<frosch123>andythenorth: ais are the better players
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14:57<@peter1138>so yeah, it won't work anyway
14:57<frosch123>they can build historically correct consists
14:57*andythenorth welcomes our bot-based future civilisation
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>i think the argument was always along the lines of "noai is more flexible, and real ais can figure this out from the stats anyway"
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>but it would still be a useful hint, i think
14:58<frosch123>yes, the problem only started when people claimed cb18 makes ais build R
15:00<@peter1138>it's pointless
15:00<V453000>my ass isn't pointless, it has exactly 1 point
15:00<@peter1138>you'd need to rewrite any AI to use the feature as well
15:01<@peter1138>that's a singularity
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>that would have been easier 5 years ago :p
15:01<@peter1138>andythenorth, close it as incompatible with noai
15:01<@peter1138>and i doubt oz gives a shit these days anyway
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>why does Ctrl+F4 not close tabs in firefox?
15:02<@peter1138>^w does
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>who chose that?
15:03*andythenorth doesn’t actually think grf authors are stupid :D
15:03<frosch123>did ctrl+f4 work past win 3.1?
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15:03<@peter1138>andythenorth, who said they are?
15:04<V453000>I'm dumb as my ass
15:04<@peter1138>oh ok
15:04<@peter1138>it made sense with just one ai though
15:04<@peter1138>as a hint
15:04<andythenorth>ancient history
15:04<andythenorth>probably the wiki is wrong eh
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i really don't remember...
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>it was just the first key i tried
15:05<andythenorth>what does it even mean? o_O
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>and since ctrl+tab switches tabs, i thought crtl+f4 could close it
15:05<andythenorth>doesn’t cb36 solve all this?
15:06<V453000>ok idea, make everyhing red/orange/yellow
15:06<@peter1138>^pgup / ^pgdn also does
15:06<V453000>openttd has fucking amazing range of colours for that
15:06<andythenorth>V453000: like a sunset? o_O
15:06<V453000>can't really tell much difference in the fire parts
15:06<andythenorth>V453000: Golden Hour
15:07<V453000>that would require long shadows
15:07<V453000>which means now
15:07<V453000>however fucking volcanic land of destruction with fire and lava everywhere isn't a bad idea
15:07<V453000>btw you can see that the difference between the terrains is smaller now
15:07<V453000>I changed the weights of colours
15:08<V453000>had some dumb ass 'human eye correction' there which I believe doesn't work for shit
15:08<frosch123>andythenorth: that's vehicles longer than 8/8
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: do you remember the mars expansion, where water was replaced with lava?
15:08<frosch123>apparently it does not crash ttdp immediately
15:08<frosch123>only if you know how
15:09<V453000>of course Eddi I have played with it many times
15:09<V453000>but the terrain itself isn't DEAD enough
15:10<andythenorth>vehicles longer than 8/8 is…not good
15:10<andythenorth>just no
15:11<frosch123>V453000: maybe we need a april 1st grf, that swaps land with water sprites
15:11<V453000>nice idea
15:11<andythenorth>won’t implement for 2054?
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>finally a proper context for wetrails :p
15:11<andythenorth>I didn’t ask many questions for that last 300 tickets I closed
15:11<andythenorth>but now I’m into the legit / hard ones :)
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: negative values for "shorten vehicles" callback is definitely a no
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>plua, we have CETS now :p
15:13<frosch123>lv5 was canceled because of that task
15:13<frosch123>i think there was some drama
15:13<V453000>CETS has graphics? :P
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>not that many :p
15:13<frosch123>V453000: eddi did not use red/orange/yellow, so it was bound to fail
15:15<andythenorth> f8-ff overflows to negative?
15:15<frosch123>in ttdp it does
15:15*andythenorth is wading through this crap to try and close the ticket fairly
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15:15<andythenorth>clearly it’s dead as a dodo
15:15<frosch123>then you park the train on a horizontal/vertical track, and remove a piece of track under train
15:15<andythenorth>actually I’ll just paste the same as the other ~50 tickets like this
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15:17<LordAro>wonder if you can pull some sort of coverage data out of the regression tests
15:17<andythenorth>there are tests? :O
15:18<LordAro>as in, the ai regression thing
15:18<LordAro>it's sort of a test
15:19<andythenorth>why would houses be allowed to modify road bits?
15:19<andythenorth>I asked for ~identical feature once actually
15:19<andythenorth>it’s a rejected pony
15:19<andythenorth>for exact same case
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15:21<andythenorth>the roadbit data isn’t provided by some 80+ var or something?
15:21*andythenorth assumes not
15:27<andythenorth>frosch123: is now a good time to post a bunch of FS for newgrf features? :|
15:27<andythenorth>or should I save it up?
15:27<andythenorth>I want to mostly close them, but need to check I’m not being a fool
15:30<frosch123>andythenorth: i am not a fan of adding newgrf features if noone is going to use/test it
15:30<frosch123>also, i already have enough other patches
15:31<V453000>it's not like I have yet utilized your awesome vehicle layers ;P
15:31<V453000>iz on todo
15:31<frosch123>andythenorth: but there is nothing wrong with grouping and colelcting stuff on some grfv10 page :p
15:32<andythenorth>I don’t think we need this in the game
15:32<andythenorth>(houses can refuse to accept cargo)
15:32<andythenorth>I don’t see what this solves that can’t already be solved differently
15:33<LordAro> that... is not as bad as i was expecting
15:33<andythenorth>^ I have made a crapload of building sprites, and they only get truncated or flicker when I do it wrong
15:33<@Alberth>+1 for close 2513
15:33<andythenorth> is meh
15:33<andythenorth>I don’t hate it, it’s arguably consistent to let cb36 change *everything*
15:34<andythenorth>how you ‘refurbish’ a vehicle in game, I have no idea
15:34<andythenorth>presumably some subtype refit bollocks :)
15:35<andythenorth>planetmaker: still want this? o_O
15:36<@Alberth>you auto-buy a new vehicle a little sooner I guess
15:36*andythenorth leaves that open
15:37<andythenorth>no rationale for closing it, except personal prejudice
15:37<andythenorth>2513 is closed
15:37<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause has a patch for this? o_O
15:37<andythenorth>‘just use a bridge'
15:38<@Alberth>or a path-finder trick
15:38<@Alberth>but not really trivial, I think
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>meh, need a new mouse battery
15:39<@Alberth>Moving all that copper halfway across the map isn't that easy :p (1650 t/month)
15:42<@Alberth>andy, maybe display production rate eg with copper refinery in IAHC, FIRS 3.0.0 alpha 4 ?
15:42<LordAro> that's a bit better
15:42<@Alberth>now I just get a big load at the station, and a high production count at the end of the month
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: anyway, my road crossing patch should still be "up to date", and the main issue is still upgrading old savegames
15:43<@Alberth>LordAro: lol :)
15:44<LordAro>ikr :)
15:44<andythenorth>does it fix the issue Eddi|zuHause ? O_O
15:44<andythenorth>I just closed the ticket as unsolvable
15:44<LordAro>AI integration "tests" aren't exactly the best thing in the world
15:44<andythenorth>Alberth: production rate? o_O
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yes, sort of. but it will also allow rv to crash into trains right in front of them
15:45<andythenorth>I see no solution when arvs are blocking a crossing
15:45<andythenorth>other than stop the train
15:45<andythenorth>which ain’t happening
15:45<andythenorth>call it realism
15:45<andythenorth>grade crossings are v. dangerous
15:45<andythenorth>YouTube has evidence
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: my patch will make a rv ignore red crossing if it's already on a crossing
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so rv will never be stuck between two crossings
15:46<andythenorth>and if it’s in a queue of vehicles due to e.g. breakdown?
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>then it's fucked...
15:46<LordAro>Alberth: surprisingly easy to get to work though, just ./configure CXXFLAGS="--coverage" LDFLAGS="--coverage" && make && make regression, then pull the data out with lcov
15:46<andythenorth>Alberth: production is ‘maximum’ :D
15:47<@Alberth>LordAro: bice!
15:47<@Alberth>andy, you think so? :p
15:47<@Alberth>nah oniwan :p
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i have never considered breakdowns while developing that patch
15:48<andythenorth>Alberth: I am open to changing that industry text, but we tried lots of variants
15:48*andythenorth looks if any screenshots exist
15:48<V453000>dat nuts
15:49<andythenorth>such nuts
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: vehicles stuck due to breakdown will need more elaborate traffic handling
15:49<LordAro>deez nuts?
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: which i don't think the game is ready for
15:52<andythenorth>indeed :)
15:52<andythenorth>Alberth: this one was…interesting
15:53<andythenorth>this was the closest viable prototype
15:53<andythenorth>there were 16 options tried :P
15:56<@Alberth>oh, if it says "supplied"at both, it is at highest production
15:58<andythenorth>but I _could_ add something to the hint text when it’s max
15:58<andythenorth>like “(achieved)"
15:58<andythenorth>or even just a tick symbol
15:59<andythenorth>or change the text
15:59<andythenorth>“Continue delivering blah blah”
16:00<@Alberth>(supplied, rate higher)
16:00<@Alberth>(supplied, rate highest)
16:00<andythenorth>Alberth: can you open FIRS feature request :P
16:02<andythenorth>my project was so neat and tidy too :P
16:02<@Alberth>wow, just 4 open issues :)
16:02<andythenorth>so this?
16:03<andythenorth>newgrf authors need to provide 2 buy menu sprites, one for each orientation?
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16:09<@Alberth>just draw it in the other direction, would be my guess
16:10<@Alberth>ph, buy menu has separate sprites of course
16:10<@Alberth>hmm, tricky
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16:10<@Alberth>most authors won't make 2 sprites I think
16:11<V453000>yeah fuck that :D
16:11<andythenorth>option to provide one, fall back to default flipped
16:11<andythenorth>oh we probably can’t actually flip sprites in game?
16:11*LordAro ponders what else to do
16:11<andythenorth>we have nothing to do transforms?
16:11<V453000>or you can just flip the sprite? :D
16:11<@Alberth>draw backward :p
16:11<andythenorth>I bet OpenTTD has nothing to do x-scale -1
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16:12<@Alberth>in SDL where you blit your own pixels? wouldn't bet on that :p
16:13<andythenorth>easy patch? o_O
16:13<andythenorth>doesn’t matter if the lighting is wrong
16:13<andythenorth>in fact there was a request I saw for RTL lighting to come from left anyway :P
16:13<andythenorth>so it’s fine
16:14<andythenorth>RTL should probably flip *all* sprites
16:15<@Alberth>we should just paint the entire screen backwards :p
16:16<andythenorth>I considered that
16:16<andythenorth>do the glyphs flip though :P
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16:18<andythenorth>oh you poor second-class non OS X users
16:18<andythenorth>you don’t have scrolling :)
16:18<andythenorth>for once, something is actually better on the OS X port
16:18<@peter1138>mouse wheel... is for zooming
16:19<andythenorth>it doesn’t actually work on OS X anyway
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16:24<@peter1138>nothing works on os x
16:29<andythenorth>NML works
16:29<LordAro>looks like nothing actually uses h_wheel / v_wheel anywhere anyway
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16:32<andythenorth>I haven’t imagined vehicles tunneling in roadstops have I?
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: tunneling is a workaround, not a solution
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>also, it takes way too long, and only a few vehicles tunnel at a time
16:34<LordAro>andythenorth: yeah, patch in 3051 doesn't work anymore anyway, even adapting it to the current code
16:34<LordAro>recommend close
16:35<andythenorth>LordAro: you have close rights no?
16:35<LordAro>oh, wait
16:35<LordAro>those buttons weren't there before
16:35<andythenorth>close some :)
16:35<andythenorth>the worst that can happen is kittens die
16:35<LordAro>i can close as "out of date", right? :p
16:35<LordAro>that seems appropraite
16:35<andythenorth>seems fair
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i would reject the rejection on grounds of "invalid" as invalid
16:35<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: isn’t building routes to prevent roadstop contention part of the game?
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: no
16:36<andythenorth>is it a goal to fix?
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: try a few games with AI that builds roadstops
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: watch epic traffic jams
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: one problem to solve is bus A waiting at a roadstop, and bus B of a different line/company which will not stop at that roadstop trying to pass
16:37<andythenorth>I could screenshot that in my games, frequently ;)
16:38<andythenorth>I am familiar with the issue
16:38<andythenorth>I just think it’s non-solvable
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the other problem to solve is multiple busses of the same route trying to load at the same stop
16:38<andythenorth>also ARVs
16:38<andythenorth>and oncoming traffic
16:38<andythenorth>and the desire to have one way stops
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>these are like 3 separate issues, and each warrant an individual solution
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16:39<andythenorth>I shall await the closure of the issue
16:40<andythenorth>as ‘implemented’ :)
16:40<andythenorth>it is only 10 years old, maybe it will be done by 2027 :)
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: start with overtaking on bridges :p
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>(overtaking can start before the bridge and continue, but not start on the bridge)
16:41<andythenorth>I don’t play much MP, but this seems like nonsense?
16:41<andythenorth>like, why?
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: in theory, a special user could have "world/deity" mode (like gamescript)
16:44<FLHerne>andythenorth: Might be useful for fixing deliberate obstructions, but just killing the company should work
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>but this would be separate from "spectator"
16:44<_dp_>andythenorth, nah it's kind of useful
16:45<_dp_>no idea what he means by set as admin tho
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: think of creative mode in minecraft
16:45<andythenorth>why not just join the company?
16:45<andythenorth>and delete stuff
16:46<_dp_>andythenorth, yeah, it solves most of the problems
16:46<_dp_>but doesn't help with indusries
16:46<_dp_>or if company has no money
16:46<andythenorth>magic bulldozer :P
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>cheats don't work in mp
16:46<andythenorth>deity then
16:46<_dp_>andythenorth, I think I'm the only one running servers with magic buldozer :p
16:46*andythenorth leaves it open
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>convert all cheats to deity commands?
16:46<andythenorth>it’s a crap suggestion though, if the request is deity
16:47<andythenorth>as in, the actual FS issue is not useful
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: sometimes people don't know what they're asking for
16:47<andythenorth>I know
16:47<_dp_>also I thing I miss as admin is to grow towns
16:47<andythenorth>if we want to get value from FS suggestions, we should group and rewrite them
16:48<_dp_>coz some bastards like to kill towns :(
16:48<LordAro>2475 - uh
16:48*andythenorth has actual paying customers who make suggestions
16:48<andythenorth>nearly always useful, but often what is asked for isn’t quite what is needed eh
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: those are the worst. because they're paying, they think they have power
16:49<andythenorth>they’re fine, we earn our money by translating what they ask for into a product that actually does what they need
16:49<V453000>omg, trying to be proper and use argparse :D
16:49<V453000>probably a bad idea
16:49<andythenorth>_dp_: you want SE tools, but during game?
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: uhm, cargodest is dead?
16:50<andythenorth>this is…cute
16:50<andythenorth>not happening though
16:50<_dp_>andythenorth, yeah, some of the SE won't hurt)
16:50<_dp_>andythenorth, never actually used SE though xD
16:50<andythenorth>me neither except to test patches :P
16:51*_dp_ wonders if SE is still broken in citymania client
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: we have settings to remember faces and stuff, could that also save company colours?
16:51<LordAro>i feel like 2831 was fixed quite some time ago with alberth's gui rewrite
16:52<andythenorth>I don’t understand 2831
16:52<_dp_>oh, I want 4115 too ^^
16:52<andythenorth>I am closing it
16:52<_dp_>with some fallbacks if it's already taken
16:52<andythenorth>no-one’s going to patch that
16:52<FLHerne>I want that too
16:52<Wolf01>Also I want 4115
16:53<andythenorth>nah, none of you will patch it
16:53<FLHerne>(but dark blue)
16:53<_dp_>so, who's patching? ;)
16:53<andythenorth>also, a current goal is to reduce Advanced Settings
16:53<andythenorth>so why add more?
16:53<LordAro>andythenorth: i think there's some text that's overflowing and being hidden in the money stats page
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the issue is 2394323 is abbreviated as 239... instead of 2.39M
16:53<_dp_>hardest part of the patch is probably ui
16:53<andythenorth>I haven’t hit the close button yet. Still writing a nice rejection :P
16:53<LordAro>it occurs to me that i don't remember how to get the cheat menu up
16:53<FLHerne>"reducing advanced settings" isn't a sane goal
16:53<LordAro>so i can't test this easily
16:53<Wolf01>Not as a setting, just saved as preset in config and always loaded on new games
16:54<andythenorth>LordAro: ctrl-alt-c
16:54<FLHerne>Removing/hiding the ones that no sane person has any reason to change is
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: also, i feel like we discussed this in the past
16:54<supermop_>i would 100% use a default CC
16:54<Wolf01>Manager face is already saved, why not colour and name?
16:54<Wolf01>And automatically load them
16:55<FLHerne>^(better idea anyway)
16:55<andythenorth>LordAro: I can’t trigger truncation or overflow
16:55<supermop_>i guess the benefit is when testing my grfs i can see if they look shitty with cream or some other color i never use
16:55<_dp_>yeah, name too
16:55<supermop_>but in TTO i played green for every game for 2 years, then orange
16:55<_dp_>I'm doing webchat for citymania and it's quite annoying that company name is set only some time after it creation
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: try a currency with factor >1000
16:56<supermop_>for OTTD i played orange for every game until about 2012, then light blue since
16:56<LordAro>andythenorth: yeah, me neither
16:56<LordAro>gonna close as fixed
16:56<_dp_>and I mean even default name, so when create action arrives it's just "Unnamed"
16:56<andythenorth>I’m up to 13 digits
16:56<V453000>omfg my shit works
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>maybe it autoresizes now?
16:57<FLHerne>Have you tried making the window absurdly narrow or something?
16:57<andythenorth>not resizable
16:57<FLHerne>(android phones, portrait?)
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: not the same thing
16:58<andythenorth>V453000: \o/
16:58<andythenorth>so I leave 4115 open?
16:58<andythenorth>I had a nice rejection written :P
16:58<V453000>=D I wanted ot have it finished this weekend
16:58<V453000>looks like a good friday
16:58<andythenorth>ach 12 more to close
16:58<_dp_>andythenorth, it's too good to be closed :p
16:59<Wolf01>_dp_: want to team up for 4115?
16:59<andythenorth>UI to select the industry layout?
17:00<andythenorth>my comment is outdated
17:00<supermop_>souns handy?
17:00*supermop_ should finish trams
17:01<supermop_>going to be riding the hiroden in two weeks
17:01<supermop_>if i don't get irradiated before then
17:01<andythenorth>people really need to choose the industry layout?
17:01<_dp_>Wolf01, eh, well, not sure about teeming but I may do a patch someday
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: in SE it might be valid
17:02*andythenorth leaves it
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>think ECS tourist centers
17:02<andythenorth>location history?
17:02<Wolf01>Just fund and remove the industry until you get the layout you want
17:02<FLHerne>andythenorth: That would have been useful for me, like, twice ever
17:03<supermop_>andythenorth: not really
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: some game (settlers 2?) had a button where you could go back to the place you were before you clicked on the message
17:03<FLHerne>e.g. this was mildly annoying IIRC
17:03<andythenorth>FLHerne: worth it though :D
17:04<FLHerne>I had to keep blowing things up and moving objects around until it looked right
17:04<supermop_>but like it is a pain sometimes when you fund an industry and it chooses some oblong layout that blocks your planned rail line
17:04<andythenorth>tough :)
17:04<andythenorth>lemons, lemonade
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_: you can force the layout by placing things in the way
17:04<andythenorth>what is this for?
17:04<andythenorth>when I (rarely) play coop MP, I can admin the server
17:04<andythenorth>via irc
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17:05<Wolf01>Rcon via client
17:05<andythenorth>how the hell do I admin server from my client?
17:05<andythenorth>there’s no UI for it
17:05<andythenorth>advanced settings are applied to my client, not the server
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: well, the request is to add such an UI?
17:06<_dp_>location history is awesome, I though about doing it too. not quite easy to do it right though
17:06<andythenorth>wtf counts as a ‘location’?
17:06<andythenorth>it’s not http
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: viewport
17:06<andythenorth>if I have laggy map scroll, do I get a new location every 16 tiles?
17:07<andythenorth>or only if I click ‘location’ in some windows?
17:07<andythenorth>and is a moving train a location?
17:07<_dp_>andythenorth, yeah, getting proper locations is a hard part.
17:07<_dp_>andythenorth, but having something to just between parts of map would be very nice
17:07<supermop_>lets play contrarian arguments to prevent andy from closing any issues
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>if ((not right-click pressed) and (distance to last location > x) then new_location
17:08<andythenorth>I am happy to have counter arguments
17:08<andythenorth>I closed all the easy ones
17:08<andythenorth>these are hard
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>is probably terrible :p
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>X should be in the order of one screen size
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>and right-click should cover other means of scrolling (arrow keys)
17:09*_dp_ has a system for trusted clients to change settings
17:09<_dp_>nobody uses it sadly :p
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>in any case, actions like clicking "jump to <location>" buttons should create a new location for before and after the jump
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17:10<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that seems totally non-controversial ;)
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>again, considering the X value
17:11<andythenorth>is this solved?
17:11*andythenorth can’t tell
17:11<andythenorth>I don’t play MP much, but sometimes it shows me last-joined server in lobby
17:12<LordAro>i'd say so
17:12<andythenorth>it ends on a thanks, so either massive sarcasm, or resolved
17:12<andythenorth>LordAro: one for you ;)
17:13<LordAro>you already pointed that at me :p
17:13<LordAro>and i already told you it's basically impossible with distros that .gz the zip
17:13<LordAro>and put it in various random locations
17:13<andythenorth>let me paste that on the ticket
17:14<Wolf01>Mmmh, I lost the internet
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>that issue is fun... we constantly complain that people don't read the readme, but at the same time we debate whether it makes sense to make the readme more accessible
17:14<Wolf01>Netflix stopped working
17:14<Wolf01>Web pages not loading
17:14<Wolf01>Only irc works
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: sounds like dns issue?
17:15<Wolf01>More like >5s ping
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17:15<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: it’s great eh :D
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>time ripples from last weeks weather?
17:15<LordAro>there are so many issues that make me go "surely that's implemented" and then i check and find it isn't
17:15<Wolf01>No, just my ISP waiting to get nuked
17:16<Wolf01>I should phone them and make them aware of their problem
17:16<andythenorth>8 more to find and close
17:17<Wolf01>andythenorth: do you know we'll open at least 1 task every time the counter gets lower than 500?
17:17<Wolf01>And all with valid stuff
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17:18<andythenorth>the point here is to get it to 100
17:18<andythenorth>and then open valid tasks
17:20<V453000> I would never expect I would be happy when obtaining something like this
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: reminds me when i first played with 256 colour mode in pascal
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17:21<V453000>now I just need to fix that blue indent
17:24<andythenorth> ?
17:24<andythenorth>stations could just be railtype agnostic when building??
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17:25<LordAro>that would be better UI, i feel
17:25<LordAro>unless... can you have stations that are fixed to a particular rail type?
17:25<andythenorth>not afaik
17:26<andythenorth>they’re independent parts of newgrf spec
17:26<_dp_>Laedek, vactube should probably have it's own stations
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>potentially they could look different based on railtype
17:26<supermop_>there is provision for different station styles by railtype
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>but i think you cannot restrict the railtype
17:26<supermop_>like vanilla monorail and maglev
17:26<supermop_>which i always found stupid
17:27<andythenorth>can’t close that one then
17:27<supermop_>should be able to have maglev tracks in the old building and vis-versa
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>do vanilla stations change look if you convert the railtype?
17:27<supermop_>so seems like it wouldn't be an issue?
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>that probably is awkward if you convert only half the station
17:28<supermop_>already is akward when overbuilding half the station
17:28<supermop_>and suddenly your tensile roof has notion to give it tension
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, if the question was whether overbuilding an existing track/station should ignore which tracktype you have selected in the gui, then yes, i'm for that
17:28<supermop_>new disaster: train crashed into collapsing station roof
17:29<andythenorth>ping pong orders?
17:29<supermop_>probably a better way to do that but interesting enough idea
17:29<supermop_>B-A might take longer than A-B due to hills or whatever
17:30<supermop_>so not that useful if you timetable
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it's a valid problem, but not an easy solution
17:30*andythenorth often wanted them for ships on long routes
17:30<supermop_>and saving the work in timetabling seems like a big part of the draw
17:30<andythenorth>copy, paste, shuffle, reverse?
17:30<andythenorth>would have to be able to select a range of orders
17:30<supermop_>copy paste orders would be better
17:30<andythenorth>why did I type ‘shuffle'
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>"auto-fill return trip" button
17:31<andythenorth>request is not for random ping-pong orders :P
17:31<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: yes
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>will create sort-of "implicit" entries
17:31<andythenorth>it’s just a convenience method
17:31<andythenorth>if only we had client-side UI scripting :P
17:31<andythenorth>I think a lot of orders crap could be solved with client-side UI scripting
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, i'd leave it open
17:31<LordAro>5141 seems closeable?
17:32<andythenorth>nobody would use it of course, just like nobody uses the two scripting layers on the mac
17:32<andythenorth>I wondered if the text could wrap
17:32<andythenorth>I have NFI how the UI works
17:32<andythenorth>close it
17:33<andythenorth>‘per Alberth’s comment’ or something
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: that sounds like it's already solved with one of the various rewrites that window got?
17:33<andythenorth>V453000: do you still want this? I think it sucks, for the record :)
17:33<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: that's possibly true as well
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: anyway, even if it's not, the proper solution would be line-wrap
17:34<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: ah, no, apparently not
17:35<LordAro>fine, 5141 can stay
17:36<andythenorth>5197 I’m tempted to say ‘get in the sea'
17:36<V453000>I tihnk it makes more sense than sending all trains to depot right now
17:36<V453000>but if it's a problem then meh
17:36<andythenorth>5197 seems really demanding, faceted crap
17:36<andythenorth>V453000: join the winning side
17:36<andythenorth>close FS issues
17:36<V453000>'then :P
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think it's a valid request, but that window is already pretty cramped with features/buttons
17:37<andythenorth>and magic hotkeys and so on
17:37<andythenorth>so not a goal
17:37<andythenorth>'orders needs a rewrite’
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so make an "order UI rewrite" task and mark this as "depends upon"?
17:39<andythenorth>I’d soon make a scriptable UI task
17:39<andythenorth>and leave the implementation of all the faceted stuff to individual players
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>make "order gui rewrite" depend on that, then :p
17:39<andythenorth>well played
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>but i don't think "offload everything to the player" is a good approach
17:40<andythenorth>only the faceted stuff
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>if you make something scriptable, you need a way to easily distribute the scripts
17:41<andythenorth>and if there are scripts that ~everyone uses, maybe the affordance gets folded into core
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>but then you need an easy way to access the scripts
17:41<_dp_>just let newgrfs do it :p
17:42<andythenorth>that is a car crash idea :P
17:42<_dp_>then you can tell "write newgrfs" for ui requests too
17:42<andythenorth>it could be done :(
17:42<andythenorth>it would not be good
17:42<LordAro>i want to close 5115, but it's the only reference to the fluidsynth patch, which would be useful
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>and opposing to game/ai scripts, players need to be able to enable/disable lots of ui scripts simultaneously
17:43<andythenorth>they’re independent, and installable
17:43<andythenorth>they appear in lists (drop downs), on specific windows
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>are they really?
17:43<andythenorth>you select one, it executres
17:43*andythenorth is making it up somewhat
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: dropdowns? stupid
17:43<andythenorth>based on all the scripting support in other apps that I never use
17:44<andythenorth>how do you choose which script to run if not a dropdown?
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>you need to have the script define the button layout
17:44<andythenorth>I wondered about that too
17:44<andythenorth>that’s v2 :P
17:44<LordAro>anyone got any thoughts on 4858?
17:44<andythenorth>nice number
17:44<LordAro>i do seem to keep picking the nice numbers
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>and give it arbitrary control of what happens on button click
17:45<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I am +1, write a spec? O_O
17:45<andythenorth>or even o_O
17:45<andythenorth>LordAro: ‘use the admin’ port seems a good answer
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you don't want windows-macro-style "click on this, then click on that" scripts
17:45<andythenorth>and it’s > 5 years old
17:46<andythenorth>so actual scriptable UI, that adds UI elements
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: port the game to QT, use their script engine :p
17:46<LordAro>andythenorth: aye
17:46<_dp_>just don't allow unprotected companies :p
17:46<andythenorth>crazy, but why not?
17:46<andythenorth>close that, 4 left to get to 500
17:46<andythenorth>if we rejected Wolf01’s patches...
17:46<andythenorth>that would be 2 gone
17:47<andythenorth>A) wtf is this? B) actually this is why I never use conditional orders
17:47<Wolf01>I could always reopen them >:)
17:47<andythenorth>conditional orders are stupid
17:47<andythenorth>trains going round in circles
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think i requested that same feature
17:48<andythenorth>add a +1 :)
17:48<andythenorth>isn’t this “Don’t use broken AI”
17:48<andythenorth>I can feel the pain, but really, core isn’t going to be able to help
17:49<V453000>2min 29s for bridges of 16384 x 3200 :)
17:49<V453000>not too bad
17:49<andythenorth>what was it before/
17:49<V453000>I'd guess about 20min
17:49<V453000>will test with old script tomorrow
17:49<Wolf01>andythenorth: after a lot of trials I concluded the best option was to set the vehicle at "load if available" and set the time in the timetable, just for loading
17:49<andythenorth>that’s the only use for timetables, no?
17:50<andythenorth>partial load orders
17:50<Wolf01>Yes, I think
17:50<andythenorth>they’re just badly named, and in the wrong place in the UI
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think the scenario i used in my request was: "Goto A (unload all, wait for X days), Goto A (load)" for end-stations so the cargo does not needlessly age
17:50<Wolf01>The problem is: if there is no cargo -> wait 10 days, but if there is cargo -> load and start immediately
17:50<andythenorth>ha nice tactics Eddi|zuHause
17:50<Wolf01>Timetable + full load didn't work
17:51<andythenorth>the problem is worrying about this stuff too much
17:51<andythenorth>if you want 75% load order
17:51<andythenorth>build a 75t train, not 100t train
17:51<andythenorth>it’s like somebody made a fundamental error
17:52<Wolf01>The problem isn't really "I want 75%" but "at least 75%"
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i've had issues on ship->train transfer stations, where the option was either to have 95% loaded trains wait ages for the next ship to arrive, or have 0% loaded trains leave
17:52<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: me too :)
17:52<andythenorth>I have often wanted partial load orders
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: this conditional order would solve that
17:52<andythenorth>I am just trying to persuade myself otherwise
17:53<andythenorth>“orders need a rewrite"
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>"goto A (load if available); if load = 0% goto 1; goto B"
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it doesn't need a rewrite
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: just leaving the station should check whether the next station is the same
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>(ca. 10loc)
17:53<LordAro>i think 5837 is valid
17:54<LordAro>i've certainly wanted to mass delete signs before (although not as many as in their case)
17:54<andythenorth>I closed it :)
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>i think i looked into it once
17:54<andythenorth>UI script :P
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>but i don't remember why i got stuck
17:54<LordAro>some sort of tile selection would do
17:54<andythenorth>‘open signs window’, ‘select all’, ‘delete’
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17:55<LordAro>andythenorth: i'm gonna reopen, i think
17:55<andythenorth>for sign in sign list
17:55<perk11>andythenorth, What could be done there is splitting those translations
17:55<andythenorth>click sign
17:55<andythenorth>click delete
17:55<_dp_>mass deleting signs needs network command
17:56<andythenorth>perk11: I know, but Rubidium said no 7 years ago, and nothing has changed since :)
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>that gs cannot loop over all signs (independent of owner) seems like a missing feature
17:57<LordAro>adding 30 extra strings is the only feasible solution, and that's just not desirable at all
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>and maybe signs should be cleared on company bankrupcy?
17:58<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: "dead" signs probably have some historical value?
17:58<LordAro>although i'm struggling to think of anything right now
17:59<perk11>andythenorth: Well he couldn't believe the facts 7 years ago, but there is still no good translation for both flying and riding
17:59<andythenorth>I can re-open it, but it won’t get done
17:59<andythenorth>it will just be open
18:00<perk11>It will give me hope
18:00<perk11>Just kidding
18:00<andythenorth>hope is not a strategy :)
18:00<perk11>Do what you think is right
18:00<LordAro>perk11: i'd imagine it's the sort of thing where if you can demonstrate that it would benefit more than one language, it might get done
18:00<LordAro>but otherwise... probably not
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18:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: tbh, rubidiums statement sounds more like an excuse than a reason
18:01<andythenorth>I don’t find fragmenting translations a big deal
18:01<andythenorth>but then again for OpenTTD, I’m privileged :P
18:01<andythenorth>I have the base lang
18:01<perk11>LordAro: I see, don't know other languages that it would benefit, but there should be some
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>the issue certainly came up in german language as well
18:01<andythenorth>but I write UI code for translated web apps, and I often deliberately split strings
18:02<andythenorth>even though it costs more money when we get them translated
18:02<andythenorth>we get a better result
18:02<_dp_>LordAro, likely also true for belarusian and ukranian, though I'm not entirely sure
18:02<andythenorth>sometimes the translation varies by context, even though word is same in English
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>problem gets worse by english being very simplified grammar
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>(terrible grammar in that sentence)
18:06<andythenorth>is GS not just too fricking slow for this?
18:06<Wolf01><Eddi|zuHause> (terrible grammar in that sentence) <- it's so simple you can throw here words like that and still understand it :P
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18:07<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: but that is sort of true for any language
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: lots of redundance in language
18:07<andythenorth>I have no idea what this is supposed to be about
18:09<_dp_>andythenorth, yeah, GS the way it is now is not suited for callbacks at all
18:09<_dp_>andythenorth, it's too slow even for its own commands
18:09<LordAro>andythenorth: apparently the UFO can pick a vehicle stopped (or is currently) in a depot
18:09<andythenorth>Zuu is trying to suggest alternatives
18:10<andythenorth>but the OP’s request is not implementable
18:10<LordAro>i'd probably call 5868 a bug, actually
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: in the early days of computing, Shannon (who basically invented the "compression" field) ran an experiment and wrote a sentence on the wall, abruptly ending it halfway through and check whether the people could finish it for him. by evaluating whether that finishing was correct, he concluded that for every letter, there's about 1 bit of information in the english language
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: so all the rest is redundancy
18:12<LordAro>5309 - won't implement?
18:12<Wolf01>He was right, since every letter could be or couldn't be right for that position
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>(that is basically why text files can be compressed really well)
18:13<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: that sounds so fake-news-y :p
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18:14<andythenorth>5309 - dunno
18:14<andythenorth>I’ve dm-ed george asking him if all his issues are still valid / wanted
18:14<andythenorth>he has 49 or so
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18:17<_dp_>5697 reminded me it's a super easy to do patch that allows/denies vehicles for specific companies
18:17<_dp_>bitmask is already there so all it needs is GS api
18:17<_dp_>and network command
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>i think i suggested giving GS control over that bitmask
18:18<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, I'm sure I suggested it too xD
18:18<LordAro>andythenorth: omg, 501
18:19<andythenorth>mouse pointer?
18:19*andythenorth trying to make sense of
18:19<andythenorth>which seems to descend into argument
18:19<LordAro>andythenorth: no, the number of issues :p
18:19*andythenorth dense
18:19<andythenorth>19 minutes past bedtime
18:19<LordAro>andythenorth: close, i think
18:20<andythenorth>surely this is an OS thing?
18:20<LordAro>any solution would be very platform specific, and SDL doesn't really do it (even on v2, iirc)
18:20*andythenorth thought window/canvas management was handled by OS
18:21<LordAro>it varies per OS
18:21<andythenorth>those should probably be closed as ‘not under OpenTTD control’ :P
18:21<andythenorth>anyone who argues differently can provide patches
18:22<+glx>it's also driver dependant I think
18:22<LordAro>and "no sane cross-platform solution"
18:22<Eddi|zuHause>re 4637: i think the solution is to have "detachable" viewports
18:22<andythenorth> is nonsense
18:22<Eddi|zuHause>so you have two separate windows (of possibly different sizes)
18:22<andythenorth>2733 can be closed I think
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>and possibly move ingame windows (like graphs) to the other window as well
18:23<LordAro>andythenorth: probably, yes
18:24<andythenorth>500 :)
18:24<andythenorth> and bother me
18:24<_dp_>2733 was quite valid tho imo
18:24<andythenorth>I don’t know enough facts to say that stuff is delegated to the OS
18:24<andythenorth>_dp_: have you verified the bug?
18:24<LordAro>andythenorth: close both and open a "detachable viewports" feature request?
18:24<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i'd leave 4637 open
18:25<_dp_>andythenorth, no but I always knew one-way roads are useless
18:25<_dp_>andythenorth, unless for hacky things like trapping vehicles
18:26<andythenorth>they’re one way
18:26<Wolf01>I use them
18:26<andythenorth>not two lane
18:26<andythenorth>they work exactly as expected
18:26<andythenorth>it’s crap
18:26<andythenorth>but that issue won’t get them changed
18:26*andythenorth sad times
18:26<_dp_>andythenorth, eh.. but they look like two lane :p
18:26<Wolf01>It could be solved by overpainting the unused lane :P
18:26<andythenorth>players learn
18:26<andythenorth>it’s an overtaking lane
18:27<Wolf01>Too bad vehicles don't even overtake
18:27<andythenorth>yes they do
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: and you didn't find a "duplicate" as reason to close it?
18:27<andythenorth>or is that the bug? o_O
18:27<_dp_>they do but very slow :p
18:28<Wolf01>No, because you flooded the game with articulated vehicles which can't overtake :P
18:28<andythenorth>they all go same speed
18:28<andythenorth>so it’s not an issue
18:28<andythenorth>I fixed it in newgrf
18:28<Eddi|zuHause>overtaking works terribly in the game
18:28<_dp_>andythenorth, breakdons? ;)
18:28<andythenorth>I’ve fixed loads of these stupid issues in newgrf
18:28<andythenorth>breakdowns are turned off
18:28<andythenorth>fixed that issue too
18:28<Eddi|zuHause>because not only with articulated vehicles, but also with crowded traffic, vehicles won't overtake
18:29<Wolf01>The problem raise when you still have different generations running
18:29<_dp_>basically there is no difference in throughput (in one directino) between one way and two way roads currently
18:29<_dp_>which is kinda silly imo
18:29<andythenorth>I introduce most of the generations at the same time Wolf01 :)
18:29<andythenorth>_dp_: one-way was just added for deliberate griefing no?
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: all in 1600?
18:29<Wolf01>But they don't replace at the same time
18:29<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: nice idea
18:29<_dp_>andythenorth, yeah, works well for that xD
18:30<andythenorth>Wolf01: when overtaking is fixed, we can all have cake
18:30<andythenorth>LordAro: stop at 500?
18:30<andythenorth>I reckon
18:30<andythenorth>Wolf01 and _dp_ can add more for their new patches
18:30<supermop_>heading home
18:30*andythenorth bed
18:31<LordAro>since my browser doesn't let me look at paste.ottdc.o, can someone tell me whether there's a "raw" url i can get to easily?
18:31*_dp_ secretly planning that whole evening
18:31<LordAro>wait, found it
18:31<andythenorth>could die :P
18:32<_dp_>it's bad enough already
18:33<_dp_>i recall someone suggesting bitcoin with a random exchange rate
18:33<andythenorth>‘too many’ is highly subjective
18:33<andythenorth>surely that’s just ‘losing’
18:33<andythenorth>or ‘being crap at the game'
18:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: having fractional exchange rates might be useful, but constantly adjusting the exchange rates to real world values is surely a non-goal
18:34<andythenorth>isn’t it
18:34<_dp_>andythenorth, or cargodist
18:34<andythenorth>that too
18:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i'd even go so far and request the original 1994 game exchange rates be reestablished, undoing any adjustments done in the past
18:35<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: add a feature request :)
18:35<andythenorth>can we also undo inflation, and the smooth economy?
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>like, at some point DM:GBP exchange rate was changed from original 4:1 to 3:1
18:35<andythenorth>_dp_: 499, you have a quota of 1 patch :P
18:35<_dp_>andythenorth, leave smooth, undo original one :p
18:35<andythenorth>frosch dislike smooth strongly for some reason
18:35<andythenorth>not sure why
18:35<andythenorth>dislikes *
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>smooth economy is incompatible with most newgrfs
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>particularly the ones which use production callback
18:36<_dp_>andythenorth, I guess from implementation point it's done quite awfully
18:36<andythenorth>most newgrfs do what they want, ignoring economy
18:37<_dp_>but for gameplay it's like "the only right way to play" imo :p
18:37<andythenorth>Supercheese: but really? o_O
18:37<Eddi|zuHause>smooth economy is probably fine, but it should be automatically disabled if newgrfs using production callback is used
18:37<Eddi|zuHause>not just for the industries that use the callback, but for all industries
18:38*andythenorth closed a “Shunting” feature request
18:38<andythenorth>because no
18:38<andythenorth>another one of these
18:38<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, it does too much different thigs, I'd rather split it in a few independent settings
18:39<_dp_>well, I guess, some of them will still need to interact with grfs somehow
18:40<andythenorth>economy script :P
18:40<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: honestly, touching smooth economy will probably open a bottomless pit of new feature requests
18:40<andythenorth>just throw them down to the bottom then
18:41<Supercheese>yeah, There's a Patch for That™
18:41<Supercheese>and that's good enough for me
18:42<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, yeah, we have andy to deal with them :p
18:42<_dp_>though adding some more sensible options for those settings will probably cover some requests
18:43<andythenorth>thanks Supercheese
18:43<andythenorth>_dp_: just make economy scriptable
18:43<_dp_>like I rly want completely stagnant economy where production never changes
18:43<andythenorth>be done by Tuesday
18:43<andythenorth>newgrf ;)
18:44<andythenorth>are signals for bridges and tunnels ever or never?
18:44<andythenorth>apaprently there’s a super-awesome patch for it
18:44<andythenorth>maintained since 2009, seems to still be working
18:44<_dp_>andythenorth, yeah, cloning all industry grfs
18:44<_dp_>thanks but no
18:44<andythenorth>_dp_: sounds crap
18:44<andythenorth>but industry grfs ignore economy anyway
18:44<andythenorth>so what to do what to do :)
18:45<_dp_>andythenorth, yeah, that's one of reasons i still haven't done a patch
18:45<_dp_>andythenorth, adding "stable god dammit" is probably a bad option...
18:46<andythenorth>if there was economy script, I would make FIRS primaries listen to it
18:46<andythenorth>I would want it to set a production level byte either per tile, or per town
18:46<andythenorth>that then hooks into standard production behaviour
18:46<andythenorth>and player can boost with supplies
18:47<LordAro>there do seem to be quite a lot of little patches just sitting around that, to my eyes, look perfectly valid for merging
18:47<andythenorth>alternatively, economy could set the production level directly in the industry
18:47<andythenorth>crazy talk
18:47<andythenorth>LordAro: I can’t judge quality, but yes, there seemed to be a lot
18:48<andythenorth>one option is fork on github, merge them in one at a time, get TB to hook it up to a build (or you Circle build)
18:48<andythenorth>then get players to test them
18:48<andythenorth>or do blocks
18:48<andythenorth>5 at a time :P
18:49<andythenorth>or just get them reviewed by someone who can review, and put them in trunk :P
18:49<andythenorth>corrupt a few savegames :)
18:49<_dp_>if something fits cm client I can merge it there first
18:50<_dp_>there seem to be some people still using it)
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18:51<LordAro>andythenorth: hehe
18:55<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the general idea of signals on bridges is a yes, the hackalittlebit approach is definitely a no
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18:57<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the hackalittlebit approach is too narrow, and would block a broader solution
19:00<LordAro>doesn't the "proper approach" require that mythical new map array though?
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>which brings us to the topic of cirdan...
19:01<LordAro>didn't michi start one?
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19:06<LordAro>urgh, all these lovely patches tied up in patchpacks
19:06<LordAro>just need more people to go through and separate out features and tidy up patches
19:06<LordAro>and people that can actually merge
19:06<LordAro>but we've had this conversation already
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>we've had that discussion multiple times before. often patch authors think having their patch included in a patchpack is a jumping ground for making it into trunk, when it's often the opposite
19:11<LordAro>in a perfect world, it probably would be
19:11<Eddi|zuHause>lots of patches died in patchpacks because no effort was done to maintain it separately, and actually clean it up for trunk merging
19:12<LordAro>there's also the issue where many patches are split up into the nice sections the devs like, but they're just too large for the devs to properly review them
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>while the patchpack version was buried under layers and layers of further contamination from ultimately unmaintainable merging
19:12<LordAro>so they just sit there
19:12<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, which is why i like the look of juanjo's stuff, given they've got things in fairly nice separate commits already
19:14<Eddi|zuHause>i've really not followed any patchpacks in like 5 years
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19:43<Etua>Hello, why OpenTTD doesn't have it's own repository for backport updates?
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19:53<Eddi|zuHause>Etua: openttd has a release branch, and bugfixes are backported to that branch
19:54<Eddi|zuHause>(currently branches/1.7)
19:57<Etua>Eddi|zuHause: I mean if there is a repo with deb files containing newer version than that in my distribution's LTS repo. Did you mean something like that or dev svn branch?
19:57<Eddi|zuHause>Etua: i meant dev branch
19:59<Eddi|zuHause>Etua: i don't think you can expect a project like this providing repositories for all the distributions out there
20:01<Etua>Eddi|zuHause: For me deb repo would be enough ;-) I know a few projects that offer them in order to skip distribution queues.
20:01<Eddi|zuHause>Etua: there are some .deb files on the download page, if that's what you're asking
20:02<Eddi|zuHause>Etua: and a generic bundle that should run on any distribution
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20:09<Etua>Eddi|zuHause: I know but installing standalone deb files is a fast way to make your system a mess and it does not offer automatic updates. For example I use Prosody repo for their single package in newest version.
20:09<Etua>Eddi|zuHause: So I suppose that OpenTTD does not offer deb repo/ppa?
20:12<Eddi|zuHause>Etua: no, but if your distribution has anywhere beyond 100 users, it probably has someone that offers a repository containing an updated version
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20:18<Etua>Eddi|zuHause: I'd like to install it on LM so probably anything from the Debian family would work. The problem is not even that I need most recent features but to be server-compatible with Windows user that presumably will have newest stable version.
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20:20<Etua>Eddi|zuHause: Do you know how big is the gap needed to loose compatibility between OpenTTD versions? Is that any difference is a blocker or compatibility is lost only after some significant changes?
20:21<Eddi|zuHause>Etua: i (sorta) understand the problem, but really, this is a problem you should talk with distribution-maintainers about, you probably won't get a satisfying answer here
20:21<Eddi|zuHause>and i'm certain within "anything from the debian family" you will find hundreds of suitible repos
20:23<Etua>Eddi|zuHause: Ok, I just wondered if there is some official OpenTTD repository. LM uses mainly Ubuntu LTS packages base so I probably won't do anything about the release cycle. Anyway, thank you for your help!
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---Logclosed Sat Aug 19 00:00:19 2017