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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-08-19

---Logopened Sat Aug 19 00:00:19 2017
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02:05<andythenorth>V453000: still thing?
02:09<@Alberth>looks highly complicated
02:09<@Alberth>more something for a planning kind of view
02:11*andythenorth doesn’t understand this one
02:19<@Alberth>haha :)
02:20<@Alberth>company value is the sum of the prices of the shares, so if it's negative, you'd get money if you buy stocks from it
02:21<@Alberth>the OP probably reasoned that a negative value of a company should be an option, ie if you invest a lot without a proper profit
02:23<@Alberth>it's not going to be changed, at least not soon, and likely never
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02:31*andythenorth will close that one
02:34<andythenorth>isn’t this just ‘losing at OpenTTD’?
02:34<andythenorth>at first glance, I’d say that town is terribly served by transport
02:34<andythenorth>although I can see the logical fallacy of 3000+ pax in an isolated town with 1000 popn. :D
02:46<@Alberth>it's already closed?
02:47<@Alberth>stations are a bit too good at collecting cargo :p
02:48<andythenorth>I was just intrigued by the fallacy :
02:49<andythenorth>we need a FS category for scenario editor
02:49*andythenorth can’t add those
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02:52<SpComb>needs induced demand for pax
02:54*andythenorth hacks flyspray
02:55<andythenorth>edits all relevant issue titles to start “Scenario Editor: "
02:55<andythenorth>such hax
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02:56<LordAro>andythenorth: not easier to wait for frosch to reappear and add a category? :p
02:57<andythenorth>such lack of patience
02:57<andythenorth>hi also
02:58<andythenorth>I don’t understand this
02:58<andythenorth>if I use ‘restart’ in console, I get the current map reset
02:58<andythenorth>doesn’t matter if scenario or random game
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02:59<andythenorth>no actually, that’s user error
02:59<andythenorth>yeah, it bins the scenario and starts a new game
03:00<@Alberth>restart generates a new world, which doesn't do what you expect when you start from a loaded game :p
03:01<andythenorth>I have left it open low priority
03:01<andythenorth>should it actually be closed?
03:01<@Alberth>it differs between game versions, since the places where random is used changes
03:01<@Alberth>I don't think we want to stay compatible there
03:02<@Alberth>so yeah, close would be fine, imho
03:02<andythenorth>do you have close rights? :)
03:17<@Alberth>Not sure I agree with your conclusion of 6525
03:17<@Alberth>I think it makes sense to use the same rules in both cases
03:18<andythenorth>does that let us consolidate anything?
03:18<andythenorth>I am with frosch - the addition of a 2nd economy was an unfortunate mistake :)
03:19*andythenorth wonders how to withdraw a closure request :P
03:20<@Alberth>dev can deny it :p
03:20<andythenorth>there a quite a few where I requested closure instead of just closing
03:21<andythenorth>because I’m really not certain
03:21<@Alberth>that's good
03:21<andythenorth>what is clear: the majority of the 255 feature requests are (1) fair and valid (2) never going to get done :)
03:21<@Alberth>If the OP had fixed the patch, I would have tried getting it in, but apparently even that is not discussable
03:21<andythenorth>I am starting to priortise to ‘high’ and ‘low’ to try and make sense of them without closing
03:22<andythenorth>even just this search for ‘timetables’ shows how half-assed new features spawn more work :)
03:22<andythenorth>even just this search for ‘timetables’ shows how half-assed new features spawn more work :)
03:22<andythenorth>even just this search for ‘timetables’ shows how half-assed new features spawn more work :)
03:23<andythenorth>even just this search for ‘timetables’ shows how half-assed new features spawn more work :)
03:23<LordAro>andythenorth: nice
03:23<LordAro>i think that's unfair though, there's a difference between "half assed" and "use case no one thought of"
03:23<@Alberth>of course, you get bug reports about stuff that doesn't work :p
03:23<andythenorth>Alberth: I would still reject 6525 on basis of “OP has abandoned work, and was slightly rude about it"
03:25<@Alberth>"rude" is perhaps not the right word, but we fundamentally differ in opinion
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03:27<andythenorth>so now it’s basically “to move this forward anywhere, dev must rewrite patch for issue they never really cared about” o_O
03:28<LordAro>jesus guys, it's not a huge amount of work
03:28*LordAro looks at it
03:33*andythenorth found some nice duplicates
03:33<andythenorth>almost word for word
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03:36<@Alberth>LordAro: yep, I know, but I scribble down to do it, then just forget it until I run into it again
03:36<andythenorth>like my FIRS ‘to do later’ list :)
03:36<andythenorth>which is in no way going in tickets
03:36*andythenorth opens that list to check
03:37*andythenorth closes that list quickly
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03:43<andythenorth>I think that isn’t
03:44<andythenorth>I think OP confuses ‘cargo is assigned a destination’ (false) with ‘cdist controls loading of vehicles at stations’ (true)
03:46<LordAro>ok, this code is actually just a mess
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03:49<LordAro>smooth & original are just smashed together
03:50<andythenorth>there’s no abstraction
03:50<andythenorth>it’s very much JFDI spaghetti
03:50*andythenorth is very familiar with industry_cmd.cpp and related
03:50<andythenorth>for reasons
03:51<andythenorth>compared to other bits of src I’ve read, it seems to be one of the messiest areas
03:51<andythenorth>but somehow newgrf industries are one of the most successful areas of modding :)
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03:52<andythenorth>nice houses are sometimes messy :)
03:53<@Alberth>economies is likely close to original decoded source :)
03:53<andythenorth>there are probably technically pure bits of newgrf support that are never used
03:53<andythenorth>or GS :P
03:53*andythenorth would burn the economies, and replace with economy script
03:54<andythenorth>which could manipulate industry and town
03:54<andythenorth>and in turn, be issued events by GS
03:54<andythenorth>economy script would be pretty dumb and limited
03:54<andythenorth>callbacks on some frequency, with control over map regions or tiles
03:55<andythenorth>GS controls goals
03:56<andythenorth>so in this idea, you could have city builders or busy bee or whatever
03:56<andythenorth>independent of, e.g. industry production
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03:56<Eddi|zuHause>haven't we discussed yesterday hat squirrel is terrible for callbacks?
03:56*andythenorth didn’t specify an implementation
03:57<andythenorth>economy script could be nfo, possibly
03:57<andythenorth>or something else
03:57<Eddi|zuHause>new nfo feature?
03:58<andythenorth>my idea is to literally dump a couple of economy vars on tiles or towns
03:59<andythenorth>and let ES adjust them on some frequency
03:59<andythenorth>or response to limited number of events maybe
03:59<andythenorth>don’t go around on a loop trying to micro-manage industries and towns
04:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the first thing i would do would be to implement some kind of slowly growing world population, which moves between towns and cities (urbanisation), when provicded with serviced industries
04:02<@Alberth>you need some system that can carry out long term orders, imho
04:02<@Alberth>and something of a planner
04:03<andythenorth>it needs some kind of state
04:03<@Alberth>we have that, the entire game
04:03<andythenorth>not just stateless response to cb, which limits you to pretty much random response to local vars
04:03<andythenorth>I mean state outside the map array
04:03<andythenorth>history or so
04:03<andythenorth>but maybe that’s over-complicated
04:03<andythenorth>and maybe that’s for GS
04:04<andythenorth>yeah, ES should be simpler than that
04:04<@Alberth>stateless should be included, if only for backward compatibility
04:04<@Alberth>and it's a valid form of planning :p
04:04<Eddi|zuHause>the GS has state, but not a lot of context (used GRF), whereas the GRF has lots of context but not enough state
04:04<@Alberth>not very effective though :p
04:06<Eddi|zuHause>so things like house construction or production callback need access to this economy state, but also in a way that makes combining grfs from different authors possible
04:06<@Alberth>GRF has context at too low leve
04:06<@Alberth>ie too local
04:07<@Alberth>so randomisation stays in GRF, higher long term direction more in GS
04:07<@Alberth>o/ dp
04:07<andythenorth>newgrf is a walled garden for production
04:07<andythenorth>all we can do is indicate to the newgrf what the local map conditions are
04:08<_dp_>6525 is an example of what should economy be splitted into imo
04:08<@Alberth>perhaps something related tp position (this position should grow/stay the same/shrink) ?
04:08<@Alberth>wrt to some property (population, industry production, ..)
04:08<andythenorth>or just a byte
04:09<andythenorth>indicating current economic health
04:09<andythenorth>that would be enough
04:09<@Alberth>would work
04:09<andythenorth>I want to keep it really simple
04:09<andythenorth>if we do it simple and blunt, it can be used not just by houses and industries
04:09<andythenorth>but also towns can use it to grow or shrink
04:09<andythenorth>or build roads
04:10<andythenorth>and it _could_ be used to localised cargo payment rates (custom profit calculation exists already)
04:10<Eddi|zuHause>there should be a global level of coordination (like world population), and a regional level coordination (like town has access to a source of electricity) additionally to the local "coordination" that newgrfs can already do
04:10<_dp_>your ES looks pretty much the same as client-side GS I was talking about recently
04:11<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: coordination could be ES or GS
04:11<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: I'd see that as something internal to the global planner
04:11<andythenorth>I would give GS commands to ES, on a per-region basis
04:12<andythenorth>hmm, that might be a disaster though :)
04:13<@Alberth>ES == economy script?
04:13<Eddi|zuHause>i think what is missing is a communication layer between GS and GRF
04:13<Eddi|zuHause>so that the GS can understand what each industry is currently doing, and can indicate to the industry what it wants to be controlling
04:13<@Alberth>looks like it
04:14<andythenorth>ES = Economy Script
04:14<andythenorth>I think it’s possibly an Economy Layer as much as a script
04:14<andythenorth>it would have logic, but not much
04:14<@Alberth>one way communication GS -> GRF would be sufficient
04:14<andythenorth>it _could_ have been done with newgrf towns
04:14<andythenorth>Alberth: the communication has to be semaphore/telegraph, not direct control
04:15<Eddi|zuHause>there is this weird town storage
04:15<andythenorth>there is
04:15<andythenorth>I considered using it, but it’s a hack
04:15<andythenorth>and again, the towns don’t have global overview
04:16<andythenorth>consistent theme
04:16<Eddi|zuHause>it could, if the GS also had access to that town storage, and could organize the data
04:17<Eddi|zuHause>but then you still need a common interface, so you could plug in and out different grfs and gamescripts
04:17<andythenorth>at that point, my ES idea is ~identical, except it provides a dedicated storage, not dependent on convention
04:17<andythenorth>using town storage is totally dependent on everyone agreeing which register to use
04:18<andythenorth>also I would like to see the smooth economy eliminated from openttd src
04:18<andythenorth>and moved into a script layer
04:18<Eddi|zuHause>NoEconomy :p
04:18<andythenorth>perfect name
04:18<andythenorth>NoIndustries would also be good :P
04:19<_dp_>why wasn't GS called NoScript?
04:19<andythenorth>re-implement them all in clean NML, ship it with openttd
04:19<_dp_>would be a very fitting name :p
04:19<@Alberth>let's make NoOpenTTD :p
04:19<andythenorth>move more ‘vanilla’ stuff to newgrf, ship source clean with the game, let people mod
04:19<andythenorth>eliminate > 'some' feature requests
04:20<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: it would not. because NoAI was named that when the first step was ripping out the old AI. with GS there was nothing existing to rip out
04:20<_dp_>Alberth, fork it and rename trunk :p
04:20<andythenorth>ship a cross-platform nmlc, create a ‘compile’ button right in the game
04:20<andythenorth>NewGRF UI :P
04:21<andythenorth>mod that
04:26<LordAro> these are basically equivalent, right?
04:30<V453000>hmmm the colour offset logic I have for darkening semi-transparent edges is an absolute nightmare :D
04:30<V453000>it has so many exceptions and special cases
04:30<_dp_>LordAro, what file is it from?
04:30<andythenorth>V453000: edges are hard :)
04:31<andythenorth>V453000: also, thing still?
04:32<_dp_>LordAro, don't think they are, looks like while only closes when it tries to go below PRODLEVEL_MINIMUM
04:33<_dp_>LordAro, and if closes when it reaches it
04:33<andythenorth>fricking airports
04:35<andythenorth>specifically town limitations on them
04:35<andythenorth>should have been newgrf
04:35<andythenorth>n airports per town, noise limits, blah blah
04:35<andythenorth>as it is I have to use OGFX+ Airports just to fix it
04:35<andythenorth>that has a patch, but should be closed imho
04:36<andythenorth>solved: use noise limits, and OGFX+ Airports
04:39<V453000>andythenorth: iz thing, would be cute, but it's just another nice idea that doesn't really need doing
04:39<V453000>probably more problems than worth
04:39<V453000>close af
04:40<_dp_>5968 should probably go along with splitting town attitude setting
04:40<andythenorth>just delegate it to mods
04:40<andythenorth>noise limit is regret
04:40<_dp_>as economy attitude also controls several independent things
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04:42<andythenorth>lo Wolf01
04:42<andythenorth>this one is just a straight yes/no
04:42<andythenorth>and it’s a trivial patch if yes
04:44<Wolf01>No, as Alberth said, change your hotkeys
04:45<Wolf01>As I might already use CTRL+S for other things :P
04:45<andythenorth>LordAro: o_O
04:45<Wolf01>Also one might like ctrl+shift+F12 to savem because office use that XD
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04:46<LordAro>andythenorth: kill it
04:46<andythenorth>LordAro: it’s nice evidence for scripted town control :)
04:46<andythenorth>but ok
04:46<Wolf01>3951 is "close, reason: disable road building for towns"
04:47<_dp_>andythenorth, and that one may already be possible actually
04:47<_dp_>andythenorth, iirc GS is allowed to bridge as deity
04:47<andythenorth>GS is too slow to properly control trowns
04:47<andythenorth>towns *
04:47<Wolf01>Oh, I didn't read the title XD
04:47<_dp_>yeah, except that)
04:47<Wolf01>It was about building bridges, don't town already build bridges over rails?
04:48<andythenorth>not afaik
04:48<Wolf01>I didn't play a full game lately, the only one was a friend, maybe he built them
04:49<Wolf01>*with a friend
04:49<_dp_>though in this case I'd say speed isn't the issue, but lack of knowlege when town is going to expand over that rail
04:49<_dp_>Wolf01, it builds level crossings if allowed
04:49<andythenorth>_dp_: that’s still speed
04:49<Wolf01>I would like them to build bridges if level crossing is not allowed
04:49<andythenorth>“GS can’t respond to callbacks” :)
04:50<_dp_>andythenorth, well, if you put it like that :)
04:50<andythenorth>some new script layer, or newgrf could do this
04:50<andythenorth>cb -> town is trying to build road -> check tiles
04:50<andythenorth>TMWFTLB imho
04:50<andythenorth>but plausible
04:50<andythenorth>476 FS issues
04:51<andythenorth>nice mini project for $someone here
04:52<andythenorth>SE is *UI* pretty much independent of savegames, right?
04:52<andythenorth>*UI* is /s
04:52<Wolf01>Could I add my patches too?
04:52<_dp_>oh, actually, if town roads are disabled there could be a GS that takes that part completely. Then it will decide itself when to expand and where
04:53<andythenorth>also NoTownLayouts
04:53<andythenorth>core should do less and less
04:54<_dp_>andythenorth, those are just imaginary things, I'm talking of what could be done already :p
04:54<andythenorth>the less core does, the more that patchpacks can roam around
04:54<andythenorth>_dp_: fair
04:54<@Alberth>scenario editor needs lots of work
04:54*andythenorth wonders what the separation between SE and world-gen should be
04:54<andythenorth>world-gen is pretty crap
04:55<andythenorth>tropic doesn’t work at all
04:55<Wolf01>BTW, I usually try to build embanked or trenched rails, for noise... you know... so towns can build tunnels or bridges, depends how I build them
04:55<andythenorth>why do we have the combination of (1) climate specific topography and
04:55<andythenorth>(2) also player options for ‘mountainous’, ‘variety distribution’ etc
04:56<andythenorth>as most of (2) doesn’t really work
04:56<andythenorth>it’s false configuration options
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04:56<andythenorth>because the climate topography just ignores it
04:56*andythenorth may be over-stating the case here :)
04:57<andythenorth>what if I starting a game and building a scenario were same pipeline, used differently
04:57<@Alberth>it's surely trivial to spend a decade full time reworking all the parts
04:58<andythenorth>generate height terrain / use heightmap -> apply climate -> generate landscape greeble / manually apply -> generate towns / place towns -> generate industries / place industries -> play
04:58<@Alberth>starting a game would have much less control, I think
04:59<@Alberth>"editing" also implies you can change your mind without starting from scratch again :)
04:59<andythenorth>drop into SE at any point, edit your map, continue playing
05:00<andythenorth>like creative/survival mode switch in minecraft
05:00<LordAro> how's this look?
05:00<andythenorth>7 year old just found the “why can’t aRVs go in drive-in stops” issue :(
05:01*andythenorth having to do user support here
05:01<LordAro>i think it's as simple as i can make a vaguely sane "split the two economies"
05:01<andythenorth>message could be better “Articulated vehicles can’t use this road stop"
05:01<LordAro>andythenorth: haha
05:01<LordAro>this is true
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05:04<andythenorth>LordAro: I could test that gist, but I can’t review it :|
05:05<andythenorth>if we had discord, I could just put a mic on my 7 year old, and we could answer all his ‘why did you make it like this?’ questions :P
05:05<andythenorth>apparently ‘smooth is not very smooth'
05:05<andythenorth>and ‘Engineering Supplies are very annoying'
05:05<LordAro>andythenorth: i think that second one is on you
05:06<Wolf01>andythenorth: you can ask him and just report here the answers
05:06<andythenorth>he could just join irc
05:06<andythenorth>but we’d have to not swear
05:06*andythenorth would have to ban V453000
05:06<Wolf01>Kick V
05:07<Wolf01>He is like the Deadpool of this channel
05:10<LordAro>Alberth: review plox
05:11<LordAro>andythenorth: how many open tasks did you start with?
05:11<andythenorth>840 or so
05:11<andythenorth>there are 475 open now
05:12<LordAro>thought so
05:12<LordAro>nearly half way \o/
05:12<andythenorth>of those, 71 are patches that might be worth reviewing
05:12<andythenorth>~30 are crashes that might want investigated (boring)
05:13<@Alberth>LordAro: I had a try, but your economy patch moves too much stuff around to understand
05:13<andythenorth>there are another 130 or so bugs, which are probably mostly TMWFTLB, but ought to be triaged
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05:13<andythenorth>so that’s 230 issues that could go
05:14<andythenorth>the rest are feature requests, which look increasingly hard to reject
05:14<_dp_>diff itself is kind of weird, it mixes removes and adds from different functions
05:14<andythenorth>40 of them are george asking for specific newgrf things
05:14<andythenorth>the other 190…blah
05:14<_dp_>I'm trying to do a split view atm
05:14<LordAro>Alberth: yeah, it's probably easier to compare the files themselves
05:14<LordAro>rather than the raw diff
05:14<LordAro>vimdiff ;)
05:15<andythenorth>if I close a lot of these feature requests…it’s heading into drama land
05:15<andythenorth>even though, empirically nothing changed
05:16<andythenorth>before closure: feature will not be done
05:16<andythenorth>after closure: feature will not be done
05:16*andythenorth collapsed a waveform though
05:16<Wolf01>Added a new task, for the glory of satan
05:16<andythenorth>think that overlaps another one somewhere
05:16*andythenorth looks
05:17<_dp_>LordAro, bb diff here
05:18<_dp_>though now that I look at it I like github split veiw more
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05:19*LordAro tries something
05:19<andythenorth>Wolf01: does your suggestion aid this?
05:20<andythenorth>can I close 1738 as duplicate now?
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05:20<Wolf01>Mmmh, I use hotkeys for fast switching
05:20<LordAro>Alberth: _dp_: it'd now be fairly trivial to get rid of Industry::prod_level as well
05:21<Wolf01>I don't remember if there's a hotkey to increase and decrease the area size
05:21<andythenorth>Wolf01: does it also address any of this wish list?
05:21<andythenorth>multi-item wish-list tickets always need to die :P
05:21<_dp_>... ok, mb I don't like github one more xD
05:22<Wolf01>andythenorth: yes, it addresses "2"
05:22<Wolf01>Oh wait
05:23<Wolf01>Isn't that already implemented?
05:23<LordAro>_dp_: hehe
05:23<Wolf01>Uhm, no
05:23<Wolf01>I used the level land :P
05:24<Wolf01>BTW, yes, could be easily addressed
05:27<Wolf01>Does TTDP works on Win10? I would like to try and see how the SE worked there
05:28<andythenorth>virtualbox :P
05:28<andythenorth>if not
05:28<andythenorth>474 issues :)
05:28<Eddi|zuHause>use dosbox?
05:28<andythenorth>if only $some people would stop adding new issues ;)
05:28<Eddi|zuHause>although, who really has the dos version of ttd?
05:29<Wolf01>I warned you yesterday I wouldn't stop to add new issues XD
05:29<andythenorth>this is a bug?
05:30<Wolf01>Time to get my old TTDx game disk
05:30<LordAro>andythenorth: i think they're talking about how it "bounces"
05:30<andythenorth>is it actually broken, or just weird? :P
05:30<andythenorth>yeah it’s probably a bug eh
05:31<andythenorth>_dp_: you want this one closed?
05:32<LordAro>andythenorth: it's enough of a bug that adf thought it was worth patching :p
05:32<andythenorth>isn’t it
05:32<andythenorth>hmm 6284 - not a current goal
05:32<andythenorth>goals are pretty clear
05:33<andythenorth>cleaning up alleged MP exploits is pretty definitely not one
05:33<_dp_>andythenorth, idk, let me thing a bit
05:33<andythenorth>I am about to close it
05:33<_dp_>andythenorth, I'm fine with leaving things as they are but it may be a valid request
05:33<andythenorth>closing alleged exploits always pisses off as many people as it pleases
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05:34<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i think that request is invalid
05:34<Wolf01>Ok, win x64 doesn't have anymore wow16, so I can't straignt install TTDx, dosbox might help
05:35<andythenorth>the pattern of ‘change established behaviour because some limited number of people running goal servers don’t like it'
05:35<andythenorth>is not a winning strategy
05:35<LordAro>think they removed that in win8
05:35<Wolf01>They removed that with x64
05:35<Wolf01>Even on XP
05:37<andythenorth>FWIW, I don’t want station signs moving around
05:37<andythenorth>and I closed it
05:37<_dp_>andythenorth, I'd say 6284 raises up a valid problem but no solution
05:37<Wolf01>Oh, I already had some D-Fend config for TTDx
05:37<_dp_>andythenorth, just calling UpdateStationSignCoord will do nearly nothing
05:37<andythenorth>7 year old is now having a one-sided conversation with Convoy AI :P
05:38<andythenorth>he is critiquing AI choices :P
05:39<LordAro>andythenorth: i did always find it a bit odd that the sign only moved when deleting bits of the station, rather than adding to it
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05:40<Eddi|zuHause>it used to be that the sign never moved
05:40<_dp_>one possible solution mb to find closest parts of two stations and use distance between them in payment calculations
05:40<andythenorth>+1 LordAro….but of the things we could spend time on :)
05:40<Eddi|zuHause>then it was changed so the sign would be moved if it ended up outside of the station
05:40*andythenorth would choose ones that are fun
05:40<andythenorth>my goal here is ‘make developing great again'
05:44<V453000>u wot m8
05:44<andythenorth>vote for me
05:45<andythenorth>this: why?
05:45<andythenorth>nobody needs to do that
05:46<Wolf01>Remove minimap
05:47*andythenorth considered it briefly
05:47<Wolf01>Main viewport becomes minimap when unzoomed
05:47<Eddi|zuHause>is there no button to focus the minimap on the current viewport?
05:47<andythenorth>not afaik
05:47<_dp_>isn't there an easy way to do it already?
05:47<andythenorth>that would actually be super useful
05:47<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: add an issue for that :D
05:48<Wolf01>The 2nd button?
05:48<_dp_>minimap is good for jumping around, zooming viewports isn't quite the same
05:48<LordAro>needs more hyper key
05:48<Wolf01>Tooltip says "centre the smallmap in the current location"
05:49<andythenorth>also 5658, just click the eye icon
05:49<andythenorth>hmm, no it does have to be paused for that to work
05:49<andythenorth>NFI then
05:50<V453000>hm shit my super smart system of automatically detecting index brightness doesn't work for shit :D
05:50<V453000>need to do it all manually
05:51<Wolf01>Oooooh the TTDx installer
05:51<andythenorth>V453000: why not working?
05:52*andythenorth still wonders why it matters where a vehicle is on minimap
05:52<_dp_>5658 is funny. minimap centers if same location is requested
05:53<_dp_>so if you doubleclick fast enough on moving vehicle it centers xD
05:53<andythenorth>I would like to just be able to press the hotkey again to center minimap (mine is ‘m’)
05:53<andythenorth>that would actually be super not-shit
05:53<_dp_>andythenorth, actually just hotkey to open it is enough
05:54<_dp_>andythenorth, it centers on viewport when opened
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05:54<andythenorth>yeah, but I have to use ‘del’ to close all windows, then press ‘m’ again
05:54<andythenorth>that’s actually my serious workaround
05:55<V453000>andythenorth: because many indexes have rather bright colours at the 2nd darkest index already etc
05:55<_dp_>still good enough for that bug as you already have 2 options
05:55<V453000>plus all the wtf colours like 3-index range of yellow, super bright green or cyan being reversed in order of darkness :D
05:55<_dp_>andythenorth, I don't have map key binded, does it not close minimap if it's already open?
05:56<_dp_>andythenorth, probably should if it doesn't
05:56<andythenorth>nah it doesn’t toggle it
05:59<andythenorth>this one’s a patch?
05:59<andythenorth>has a patch attached :P
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06:04<andythenorth>this kind of just annoys me
06:04<andythenorth>vague request, links me to a 2 page thread of people arguing about how to build multiple unit trains in newgrf
06:04<andythenorth>arguing / debating /s
06:05<andythenorth>wtf is it supposed to be
06:05*andythenorth pasted a vanilla reply on and closed it
06:05<andythenorth>no gain by being grumpy :)
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06:08<andythenorth>ha, ES should also get control of inflation
06:09<andythenorth>globally though, not per town :P
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06:14<@Alberth>inflation with equally increasing costs and profits is useless, just turn it off then
06:15<andythenorth>seems daft
06:15<andythenorth>why not have date-based variation of base costs?
06:15<andythenorth>so recessions, booms etc
06:16<andythenorth>inflation seems a waste of time to me
06:16<andythenorth>I’d just rm it, and migrate savegames
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06:17<andythenorth>467 issues
06:17*_dp_ never understood inflation
06:18<_dp_>though I don't play more than 5-15 years usually
06:18<andythenorth>aren’t ping times going to be highly variable?
06:18<andythenorth>kind of useless
06:18<LordAro>not generally
06:18<LordAro>could take some sort of rolling average
06:19<andythenorth>also are we going to send pings from the client to hundreds of servers?
06:19<andythenorth>seems like a ping-flood :P
06:19<_dp_>I think I've never seen a server that is unblayble due to ping
06:19<Wolf01>Do you want one?
06:20<_dp_>Wolf01, xD
06:20<Wolf01>Just let me start mine XD
06:20<_dp_>andythenorth, iirc it already pings all servers
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06:22<_dp_>well, techically it's not a ping but udp request but whatever
06:22<Wolf01>_dp_: ...unblayble... <- Oh, I noticed you have bdpq problems too, I wrote p in place of b for 3 times today (luckily I noticed them before sending) XD
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06:23<_dp_>Wolf01, i noticed I have a lot of problems with typos xD
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06:24<Wolf01>My fingers usually forget the "h", some days ago I wrote "i" in place of "y" everywhere
06:25<_dp_>My weirdest typo is that I sometimes write "your" instead of "our"
06:26<Eddi|zuHause>recently i find myself typing a lot of "sounds" in the wrong way
06:26<Eddi|zuHause>i can't come up with an example right now
06:26<Eddi|zuHause>but if you said it outloud, it would sound the same, but written down it's complete jibberish
06:26<LordAro>andythenorth: many other game lobbys have the feature, it can't be that difficult to achieve
06:28<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: wrt ping time, only use the timing of the initial response packet, don't constantly update it?
06:29<Eddi|zuHause>would put no additional stress on the servers, because that packet is sent anyways
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06:31<_dp_>nice and relatively easy feature imo but hardly useful
06:31<_dp_>but I may be too spoiled by a good internet :)
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06:51<@Alberth>andythenorth: is it correct that bulk terminal does not show "(supplied)" but does show "Gung ho" instead?
06:51<andythenorth>bit weird though eh?
06:51<@Alberth>it is
06:51<andythenorth>port-type industries are quite non-standard
06:52<andythenorth>mechanic seems to work, but words…dunno
06:53<@Alberth>words sometimes work, sometimes they don't
06:53<andythenorth>is pikka bob
06:54<Pikka>someone's been closing all my flysprays
06:54<andythenorth>isn’t it
06:54<andythenorth>got any more? o_O
06:54<Pikka>I don't know, haven't checked
06:55<Pikka>there's some good ones there
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07:01<ic111>Does anyone know, wether the days_in_transit (in cargo packets) are actually in unit "2.5 days" like the comment of CargoPacket::DaysInTransit() states?
07:02<ic111>I ask, because I started inspecting why I earn a surprisingly low amount of money with transporting passengers sometimes
07:02<andythenorth>Pikka: so can you get elected as a federal politician? o_O
07:03<ic111>So I added a logger to PayFinalDelivery, PayTransfer, and AgeCargo
07:03<_dp_>ic111, sounds likely but not sure
07:04<ic111>... and in a small test game starting at 1st January 1905, my train loaded around 3rd January, and unloaded 19th January, and the days_in_transit variable contained the value 20!
07:05<_dp_>ic111, may also be some accumulated value for all cargo packets
07:05<Wolf01>Days in transit iirc is from when they appear at station
07:05<ic111>Yes, I am aware of that
07:06<Wolf01>It's the life of the cargo packet
07:06<ic111>As I have said, the game started at 1st January, so at 19th January, following the comment, no cargo packet can have a value > 19 / 2.5 = 7 or 8
07:06<_dp_>it's only icreased when cargo is in train, I definitely checked that recently
07:07<_dp_>I guess it's easier to just ask grep :p
07:08<ic111>Yes, but my logging output looks like it´s increased much more often than the comment indicates.
07:09<_dp_>ic111, are you sure you're not confusing days_in_transit and cargo_days_in_transit?
07:12<ic111>cargopacket.h has an implementation for DaysInTransit(), implemented as "return this->days_in_transit;". I output cp->DaysInTransit(). So, not impossible that I confuse something, but currently I don´t see a mistake in my logging.
07:12<_dp_>I see...
07:12<_dp_>do you use any newgrfs?
07:13<V453000>hi Pikka :)
07:13<_dp_>looks like vehicle newgrf can speed up cargo aging as well
07:13<ic111>Ah, ok. Then I indeed should test this without NewGRF
07:14<ic111>... and maybe that comment is misleading
07:16<andythenorth>vehicle newgrf can control decay rate
07:17<V453000>nuts does :P
07:18<_dp_>cat it change it dynamically?)
07:18<_dp_>cat lol
07:19<Wolf01>Cats already do that
07:19<Wolf01>Fuck typo
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07:20<_dp_>looks like it can't, so no reducing decay in snow :(
07:21<ic111>Yes, it was the NewGRF
07:21<ic111>Seems that those early SBB set vehicles increase cargo aging by (in my example) a factor three
07:22<ic111>... now at least I know why earning money with a larger passenger network is so difficult with those vehicles, something which I never understood so far
07:23<andythenorth>there is no indication to player about decay rates
07:23<andythenorth>nor loading speed
07:23<Wolf01>BAD feature
07:23*andythenorth thinks vehicle window should show those somehow
07:23<andythenorth>or players should all use text cb :P
07:23<Wolf01>Maybe cargo payment rate graph window too
07:25<_dp_>Wolf01, rate graph doesn't know about vehicles
07:25<Wolf01>Put rate graph in vehicles
07:25<_dp_>this thing potentially could though
07:26<V453000>yeah loading speed is good to know
07:27<V453000>all of nuts vehicles add that in text cb manually ._.
07:27<_dp_>for a single wagon it's better to show it as a value
07:27<_dp_>graphs make more sense for a whole train
07:27<_dp_>not so easy to calculate though
07:28<ic111>... although I don´t understand the idea behind that - what´s the idea behind faster cargo aging (specifically?) in a situation where vehicles are slow, and need more time for going from A to B, regardless how efficient you build your network?
07:29<andythenorth>nice chart _dp_
07:29<V453000>it's dumb really ic111
07:29<andythenorth>what chart library? o_O
07:30<V453000>nuts tries to simulate "losing cargo" by that, though it's pointless
07:30<_dp_>people get sick faster in old vehicles :)
07:30<V453000>yeah chart is nice
07:30<andythenorth>it’s realisms
07:30*andythenorth makes some vehicles age cargo faster
07:30<Wolf01>andythenorth: highcharts
07:31<andythenorth>hmm costs money eh
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07:32<_dp_>yeah, for non-commercial it's the best library I know
07:32<ic111>Yes, the idea that people get sick (or rather bored, or whatever you want to call it) faster in old wagons is valid.
07:33<andythenorth>err…per developer licensing :|
07:33<andythenorth>back to open source charting for andythenorth
07:33<ic111>And I admit, that I use the date cheat, to build a network with those old vehicles
07:34<ic111>But, nevertheless, it blocks longer distance trains with those vehicles
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07:34<ic111>Maybe time for the next private sourcecode hack ;-)
07:35<_dp_>openttd doesn't seem to be a good economy simulator anyway
07:35<_dp_>just make good moneyline and do whatever you want afterwards)
07:36<ic111>It was just a new expericence, that with a large passenger networks, that transports quite a lot of passengers, earning money became so difficult.
07:37<V453000>well being able to transport furhter more efficiently isn't that much of a bad thing, gives some more progression
07:37<V453000>but yeah, money in openttd :)
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07:39<_dp_>btw, speaking of increased passenger "aging", why do they even "age" in a first place? :)
07:40<Wolf01>Some cargo could rot
07:40<V453000>I think the idea was to motivate an efficient network which gets there quick
07:40<V453000>and again progression with faster engines
07:40<ic111>Income per distance unit depends on the time spent for that distance
07:40<_dp_>there should probably be some average travel speed expectancy for passengers that increase with time
07:41<_dp_>but eh, NoEconomy :p
07:41<Flygon>I do kinda wish Passengers had a different style of economy.
07:41<Flygon>That encouraged using smaller capacity carriages.
07:41<Flygon>ie. high quality carriages for long distance journeys, with small capacities, will generate a lot of profit.
07:41<Flygon>But will be terrible for profit short distance.
07:41<ic111>And implementors of CargoDist chose to not calculating this by storing the timestamp when the cargo entered the vehicle, but by aging cargo periodically.
07:45<ic111>Yes, it would be quite good if the expectation "what´s an average travel speed" would depend on the available vehicles
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07:51<Wolf01>Flygon: that's what tourists are for, they should pay more to travel more, like a logarithmic function :P
07:51<Flygon>:P That's it's own Cargo Class.
07:52<andythenorth>Flygon: I’m going to try two types of carriage in Iron Horse
07:52<Flygon>American Tourists are a sub-class.
07:52<andythenorth>it works for bus/coach in Road Hog
07:54<Wolf01>Add taxis
07:55<andythenorth>Tropic map gen is junk
07:56<andythenorth>but that issue is not getting it fixed
08:03<andythenorth>LordAro: a classic :D
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08:03<Wolf01>Tropic gen is broken, yes
08:03<Wolf01>Open a task
08:03<LordAro>andythenorth: defo still valid
08:04<andythenorth>Wolf01: would you review my tropic patch? o_O
08:04<Wolf01>Yes, I could do it
08:05<_dp_>does anyone know if it's even worth to constatly call fontconfig's FcFini to save up some memory?
08:05<_dp_>because time-wise it definitely doesn't
08:05<_dp_>actually I couldn't even confirm there is any memory gain by doing it
08:05<_dp_>and every FcInit takes about 2 seconds on my pc
08:05<_dp_>I could probably patch it not to reinitialize fontconfig 12 times on every load but it somewhat feels that just keeping it initialized constantly would be even better.
08:07<LordAro>_dp_: doesn't FcInit do that anyway? not like it returns anything
08:07<_dp_>damn, I think i jinxed my internet :(
08:10<Wolf01>andythenorth: wtf you coded it like that? :D
08:11<andythenorth>you think I should apply DRY? o_O
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08:11<andythenorth>rather than copy-paste? o_O
08:11<Wolf01>No, just remove the code from the case and move the tropic case up with temperate and toyland
08:11<andythenorth>DRY :)
08:12<andythenorth>I had a problem with that idea
08:12<andythenorth>…why bother checking cases at all? :P
08:12<andythenorth>just use one terrain generator
08:13<Wolf01>Mmmh, it works better for the terrain, but still broken as fuck
08:13*andythenorth should try the temperate generator for arctic too
08:14*andythenorth tests that
08:14<V453000>arctic is nice
08:14<V453000>tropic has hard time making hills
08:14<andythenorth>‘hard’ ?
08:14<andythenorth>it’s totally fucked :)
08:15<andythenorth>it’s a disaster
08:15<andythenorth>not fixing it is one of the few things that makes me sad about current OpenTTD dev :)
08:15<andythenorth>everything else is pretty awesome
08:16<Wolf01>andythenorth: ?
08:18<andythenorth>how do I generate same seed?
08:18*andythenorth comparing maps
08:19<LordAro>i'm gonna be miserable now. until we can actually get a dev to look at this stuff, say yes, and merge it; or give someone else commit rights, this is all pointless
08:20<Wolf01>Seed is 789214921
08:20<andythenorth>more mountains Wolf01 ?
08:20<andythenorth>LordAro: we can fork!
08:20*andythenorth isn’t serious
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08:20<andythenorth>but we could have a github fork
08:20<andythenorth>with feature branches
08:20<_dp_>LordAro, what do you mean? FcInit doesn't reitialize when called in succession. but openttd also calls FcFini all the time
08:20<andythenorth>grouped around topics
08:20<Wolf01> <- added pic with settings
08:21<andythenorth>i.e. SE topic
08:21<LordAro>_dp_: are we talking about the same thing? afaict, FcInit only needs to be called once per program run
08:21<andythenorth>map gen topic
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08:22<_dp_>LordAro, yeah, but it doesn't matter how many times it is called unless there is a FcFini in between them
08:22<andythenorth>I’m totally not convinced that the sub-arctic map gen is doing anything worth having
08:22<andythenorth>the higher mountains are better achieved by selecting 'alpinist'
08:23<LordAro>oh, right
08:24<Pikka>andythenorth, no I can't. Although I've had several people in the last couple of weeks tell me I should be running at state level
08:24<LordAro>i've been misreading FcFini as FcInit this whole time
08:24<Wolf01>andythenorth: updated imgur with a bigger map
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08:25<andythenorth>Wolf01: so what changes then? :)
08:25<andythenorth>I can read the gist, but what is it doing now?
08:25<LordAro>_dp_: yeah, call FcInit/FcFini in some global static data structure and be done with it
08:26<Wolf01>andythenorth: First 4 levels are more flat
08:26<andythenorth>does it still flatten mountains?
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08:28<Wolf01>Updated imgur again
08:28<_dp_>LordAro, or just never call FcFini
08:28<LordAro>_dp_: it wouldn't be good form to not cleanup after ourselves
08:29<andythenorth>script it :P
08:29<_dp_>LordAro, but main question here is whether is it necessary to do FcFini before entering the game
08:29<andythenorth>let people write their own terrain manglers
08:29<andythenorth>put em on bananaramas
08:30<LordAro>probably not
08:30<_dp_>LordAro, theoretically it can save up some memory by the expence of reintializing fontconfig when it's going to be needed again
08:30<andythenorth>probably not even the hardest mod, terrain mangling
08:30<LordAro>andythenorth: like i said, NoOTTD
08:30<andythenorth>it’s only maths, no vars
08:30<andythenorth>LordAro: it’s a catchy phrase
08:30<LordAro>whatever happened to YA<thing>
08:30<andythenorth>said ‘newTTD'
08:30<andythenorth>YA<thing> is now a proven bad joke
08:31<LordAro>bad jokes can still be funny
08:31<Wolf01>I'll edit a seed box in the new landscape on SE
08:31<andythenorth>should have been YA<thing>deleting<oldthing>
08:32<andythenorth>Terrain is just a tile loop?
08:32<andythenorth>do it in some functional programming language :D
08:32<andythenorth>for extra cool points :P
08:33<Wolf01>Create a scenario via GS
08:34<_dp_>LordAro, it's kind of hard to move fonconfig initialization to global because it's stateless and you never know if it going to be needed or whether it was initialized
08:35<andythenorth>^ sounds like he’d need a very specific network to get that to work ever
08:35<_dp_>LordAro, solvable with extra bool though
08:35<andythenorth>is there anyone here who uses timetables properly?
08:36<Wolf01>Timetables are way too obscure to be used properly
08:36<FLHerne>andythenorth: Eh, it makes sense, that's how real railways work :P
08:36<LordAro>_dp_: hrm
08:36<FLHerne>Why would you manually skip a station (without changing the TT) if not to avoid delays?
08:37<FLHerne>I'm not convinced it's possible to use timetables "properly"
08:37<Wolf01>I'm not convinced a vehicle in R-world skips stations
08:37<ic111>I rewrote timetables here (I know it´s big...)
08:38<andythenorth>I can’t comment on timetable requests, because I have zero use for a broken feature
08:38<andythenorth>but someone ought to
08:38<FLHerne>They're far too complicated for general top-down management, but the smaller details like start dates and that bug are almost designed to make micromanagement impractical
08:38<FLHerne>Wolf01: The trains here certainly do
08:38<andythenorth>here are the requests I’ve found so far:
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08:39<Wolf01>FLHerne: Trains here don't even arrive when they are late, and when they arrive they stop at the station because passengers already found another way to get to destination (like the next train)
08:39<LordAro>ah, good ol' FS search urls
08:40<ic111>I played with the native timetables in exactly one game - then I realized that I needed an external spreadsheet to keep track about them, and rewrote from scratch...
08:40<FLHerne>Wolf01: If they leave Kings Cross late, they often skip some/all the stops before Stevenage (I think to make sure they cross the bottleneck at Welwyn in their booked slot)
08:40<Wolf01>Maybe your lines are better organized
08:41<Wolf01>Here you have 1 train every 40 minutes (average), so if one gets >40' late, then you just take the next one and the late one stops at the first big station
08:42<FLHerne>Well, that's what the buses do
08:42<FLHerne>The ECML is a bit busier than that :P
08:42<andythenorth>FLHerne: what order should it skip? o_O
08:42<andythenorth>what if it’s a servicing order, and it breaks down?
08:43<andythenorth>what if cdist needs the order to calculate link stats?
08:43<andythenorth>what if it’s a conditional order and the vehicle gets stuck in a loop?
08:43<andythenorth>ok ‘what if’ is silly :)
08:43<FLHerne>andythenorth: That's not what the bug asks for
08:44*andythenorth reads again
08:44<andythenorth>so that one’s valid?
08:44<FLHerne>andythenorth: The problem is that if you manually skip an order, it also skips the timetabled time for that order
08:44<andythenorth>sounds a bit crap
08:44<andythenorth>is it a bug?
08:44<FLHerne>Which is completely insane
08:44<FLHerne>Who knows? :P
08:45<FLHerne>I mean, it makes no sense and helps make timetables impossible to manage
08:45<FLHerne>But that's every aspect of the timetable system
08:45<ic111>IMHO, the design flaw in the present system is that you configure a relative time ("travel 6 days") at all
08:46<ic111>IMHO, timetables need to be specified in an absolute manner
08:46<ic111>E.g., depart "3rd August 1925"
08:47<ic111>Then the next order can specify "Arrive 17th August, Depart 21st August", and so on...
08:47*andythenorth reading the TIP thread
08:47<_dp_>LordAro, I genuinely hate adding global variables :p
08:47<ic111>And once the last order is done, you increase all dates by a given timetable length, and start at the beginning
08:48<andythenorth>I’ve only scan read, but it makes more sense than ‘travel n days'
08:48<andythenorth>I never understood that
08:48<andythenorth>vehicle has a speed
08:48<LordAro>_dp_: i mean, you're not wrong
08:49<andythenorth>with timetables, if a vehicle travels 5 days, but needs 10 to do the route, wtf happens?
08:49<andythenorth>does it just stop>?
08:49<andythenorth>seems fucked :)
08:49<FLHerne>ic111: How does your patch do old-game compatibility? Does it?
08:49<andythenorth>specifying how many days a vehicle takes violates s=d/t physics
08:49<FLHerne>andythenorth: It just gets increasingly late
08:49<andythenorth>I have had timetables explained to me about 5 times
08:49<ic111>I´ve need to look into the code myself ;-) (implemented some years ago already...)
08:50<FLHerne>andythenorth: You can specify buffer time at key points to counteract that (which is why drive-in stops are useful)
08:50<andythenorth>they conceptually make absolutely no sense
08:50<andythenorth>vehicles have a speed
08:50<andythenorth>does the timetable slow the vehicle down>?
08:50<FLHerne>andythenorth: No
08:50<andythenorth>ok, so the concept is just a lie :)
08:51<FLHerne>andythenorth: If the vehicle arrives earlier than it was supposed to, it waits at that station until it's time to leave
08:51*andythenorth isn’t actually being difficult here, I really don’t understand timetables at all
08:51<FLHerne>andythenorth: If it arrives late, it leaves as soon as possible
08:51<andythenorth>but after loading?
08:51<andythenorth>or without loading?
08:51<FLHerne>With whatever the orders say
08:51<andythenorth>what’s the objective?
08:52<andythenorth>is it modelling realism?
08:52<andythenorth>there are people out there with the National Rail website?
08:52<FLHerne>Essentially, the only behaviour of timetables is to force vehicles to wait at stations for longer than they normally would
08:52<ic111>The objective is that you can make your vehicle pass certain stations etc. at defined dates.
08:52<ic111>E.g., I can make a long distance train overtake a short distance train at a defined station
08:52<FLHerne>More straightforwardly, it's the only in-game way to prevent vehicles bunching up
08:53<andythenorth>why don’t people just use this instead?
08:53<andythenorth>if they want to track trains
08:53<FLHerne>(because you can enforce a fixed round-trip time, and then set start dates at fractions of that time)
08:53<ic111>Or I can make two trains meet at a station at a defined date
08:53<ic111>where they can exchange passengers
08:53<ic111>Plus I can make vehicles travel in a defined interval, i.e. one train every two or four months, instead of a random order
08:53<andythenorth>oh so you could have a train meet a ferry?
08:54<andythenorth>so you could synchronise feeders?
08:54<andythenorth>and doing that with conditional orders would be crap
08:54<FLHerne>But at the moment, they're such a complete pain to set up that even I don't bother usually :-/
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08:54<andythenorth>also defining some kind of ‘routes’ system would be crap
08:54<LordAro>ic111: hrm, i cannot get 270 to apply
08:55<andythenorth>it’s the ‘travel’ thing that puts me right off
08:55<FLHerne>Yeah, ic111's thing is vastly better
08:56<ic111>did you use the version 20 attached to the first post?
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08:56<ic111>Hm, I last checked in April that it applies against trunk
08:57<LordAro>(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
08:57<ic111>So maybe a change in trunk since then, I´d have to look at it
08:57<LordAro>wait, i misread
08:57<andythenorth>nice glyphs
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08:57<LordAro>ic111: oh, lol
08:57<LordAro>it was the last commit that broke it
08:57<LordAro>my commit :)
08:57<LordAro>frosch123: quak
08:58<ic111>andythenorth: I removed the routes in a later version
08:59<andythenorth>ic111 I’d offer to test it, it looks better, but honestly I am the wrong person to give opinions on timetables :)
09:00<andythenorth>this is news to me
09:00<ic111>Thank you, maybe a person that never dealt with timetables before is not that bad at all...
09:01<andythenorth>FIRS doesn’t define any tile output
09:01<andythenorth>how come it works?
09:01<ic111>Note: I will be totally offline Sunday to Tuesday or Wednesday, so if you ask some question etc. and I don´t answer, this is the reason
09:04<frosch123>andythenorth: there is no tile output, that's what the task asks about
09:05<frosch123>andythenorth: you disabled tile input because it sucks, the task asks to make output as bad as input
09:05<andythenorth>I’ll leave it
09:06<andythenorth>_dp_ we talked about this one I think, did we conclude anything?
09:07<ic111>andythenorth: Just one hint: I implemented specifying timetable lengths etc. in Days, Months, or Years, but experience shows, that you usually want to specify it in Months. Days are useful if you really need a train every 15 days (but have the problem that months have variable length, which the Month variant shadows).
09:07<andythenorth>does this mean I can deliver FIRS supplies guaranteed once per month? o_O
09:08<ic111>If a timetable has e.g. length 4 months, and you have an order "Depart 15 January", then the next departure will be "15th May", regardless of the month length in between.
09:11<_dp_>lagging heavily here, sorry
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09:23<andythenorth>Wolf01: I am re-prioritising feature requests: high -> current goals; low -> maybe a goal in future
09:23<andythenorth>is SE stuff high or low?
09:24<andythenorth>LordAro is a troll :)
09:24<LordAro>i try my best :)
09:25<_dp_>andythenorth, what conclusion do you want? it useful feature imo, but not an easy one and nobody seems to be interested in implementing it.
09:25<_dp_>andythenorth, also I'm not very interested in implementing it since I'm already pretty close to having similar stuff on citymania (which is a pile of hacks ofc so not reusable sadly).
09:25<LordAro>i don't think you can classify things based on how interested people are in implementing it
09:26<andythenorth>orly? :)
09:28<andythenorth>_dp_ thanks :)
09:29<Wolf01>andythenorth: roadmap
09:29<andythenorth>so it’s a goal?
09:31<Wolf01>We don't have a roadmap since 1.3
09:31<ic111>Beside the aforementioned reject in patch 270 (which has a quite trivial fix) the timetables patch applies for me.
09:31<andythenorth>roadmaps are bollocks imho :)
09:31<LordAro>ic111: i've had 3/4 so far
09:31<andythenorth>except as far as setting ‘current goals'
09:31<LordAro>none are difficult to fix
09:31<LordAro>it might be git being more picky
09:32<ic111>Conversion of old timetable information indeed isn´t done, patch 280 does something with the start dates and lengths, but zeros the arrivals and departures out.
09:32<andythenorth>I can’t adjust FS, probably wise
09:32<ic111>What do you mean with "3/4"?
09:32<LordAro>3 or 4 conflicts
09:33<andythenorth>but I would categorise things ‘interesting’, ‘might be interesting later’, ‘dull’
09:34<ic111>I downloaded trunk just a moment ago, applied the, and all I got was this conflict in 270, where you did something in a code block my patch removes
09:34<Wolf01>andythenorth: what are the current goals?
09:34<LordAro>ic111: i'm using git am to (very slowly) apply the patch queue, all of other issues have been with the diff's "context", rather than the code itself
09:35<andythenorth>the goals were set by the only person actively committing
09:35<andythenorth>which seems fair tbh
09:35<Wolf01>andythenorth: that are the game lifetime goals, not current ones
09:35<andythenorth>I am trying to figure out current ones :)
09:35<ic111>ok, I checked out using hg, and seems that it was more friendly against differences...
09:36<andythenorth>current goals are likely to be both (a) things that devs with commit access support (b) things that interest people writing the patch
09:36<andythenorth>SE is interesting, because it’s probably easy to get big UI wins with no worries about savegame, desync, NoGo, NoAI, newgrf etc
09:37<_dp_>I'd it would be more benefitial to focus on small improvements rather than big rewrites for now.
09:37<Wolf01>SE always got a background role
09:37<_dp_>Unless there is someone who is ready to do such rewrites ;)
09:39<andythenorth>also, if .scn format stays same
09:39<andythenorth>we could get an official build of an SE fork, and players could try it as a binary
09:40<andythenorth>whilst being able to use the results in any compatible ottd
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09:42<Wolf01>I think a current goal could be to focus on daylength, people really enjoy it much, I would too, and I think we can get some compromises
09:43<andythenorth>I can’t see that getting into trunk tbh :)
09:43<andythenorth>it’s probably confined to patchpacks
09:43<Wolf01>Then everything is confined to patchpacks
09:44<LordAro>in a perfect world, uncoupling how fast the date changes from the game's tick rate should be easy
09:44<Wolf01>DL is not a big change, only scatters some multiplications around, the problem is to multiply the right things
09:44<andythenorth>even just train prop 97 blocks DL
09:45<andythenorth>if you want to change that, you might likely need approval from MB and george
09:45<andythenorth>I proposed before just lying about the date
09:45<Wolf01>We could provide a different value for tick counter, accordingly to daylength
09:45<andythenorth>but the train grfs are relying on ticks to do date-related things
09:46<andythenorth>DL pisses me off tbh :)
09:46<andythenorth>nobody makes any sense about it so far
09:46<andythenorth>if the only purpose is to display a different date
09:46<andythenorth>why don’t we just lie about the date?
09:46<Wolf01>Instead they should do date stuff related to date, not try to calculate the date
09:46<andythenorth>instead of trying to change the fundamentals of many game loops and tick counters
09:47<Wolf01>What if we need to change to another value of tick counter some day?
09:47<LordAro>andythenorth: doing that effectively would be a worse hack, imo
09:48<andythenorth>oh well :)
09:48*andythenorth is out of ideas then
09:52<ic111>DayLength: What I don´t understand is: You have the I would like to call it real-time-part of the game mechanics, i.e. how fast do trains move, how fast are passengers generated, and so on.
09:53<ic111>This part - ok, in some respect I regard it as not 100 percent balanced - but beside this, this part is senseful as it is IMHO
09:53<ic111>At least, it doesn´t need to be changed by a huge factor
09:53<_dp_>DL seems so easy on outside, it's tempting to do a patch :)
09:54<andythenorth>so many have
09:55<ic111>So, concerning day length I would expect that one talks about (1) the long term game mechanics, e.g., how many years does the game spend, until the next engine becomes available
09:55<ic111>and (2) maybe about pure GUI, e.g. display a time like "13:30" that approximately matches vehicle movement speed, instead of a date
09:56<ic111>Now you tell me that many things are based on ticks, especially with NewGRFs.
09:57<ic111>But for those things, that I called "real time part" above, if you just don´t change the speed of those ticks (relative to real world time) you shouldn´t need to change anything
09:57<_dp_>ic111, for time to match speed there has to be some notion of distance in relation to real world :p
09:57<ic111>yes, of course
09:57<LordAro>ic111: for funsies
09:57<_dp_>ic111, well, openttd has none afaik
09:58<ic111>But well, a train traveling between two cities between 13:30 and 13:50 looks much more aligned with time, than a city traveling for 20 days.
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09:58<ic111>back to above...
10:00*_dp_ lives in a country where travelling for days between cities is pretty common
10:00<ic111>So I would expect that you would need to do something about things that happen on a long time scale (like new vehicles showing up), and on GUI.
10:01<ic111>Now, given that, I don´t understand where those many places where factors would have to be adjusted are.
10:02<andythenorth>search ‘tick’ in /src? o_O
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10:03<_dp_>andythenorth, 1462
10:03<andythenorth>probably fine
10:04<LordAro>ic111: ooh, apparently i just broke it as well
10:04<LordAro>game's completely locked up
10:04<ic111>Yes, but if you just don´t touch the tick vs. real world time ratio, and just (more or less) add extra game years, e.g. not switch from 1910 to 1911, but from 1910 to 1910.A to 1910.B to 1910.C ... to 1911, how many of those occurrences persist?
10:05<LordAro>impressively locked up, i had to kill -9 it
10:05<andythenorth>ic111: are you proposing just lying about the date? o_O
10:06<_dp_>to me lying about date sounds like changing amount of ticks per day
10:07<_dp_>and if I were to write DL patch I'd go that route
10:08<Wolf01>_dp_: yes, that is what I wanted to implement
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10:08<ic111>Just lying about the date is probably not enough, but enlarging the time interval until new vehicles arrive, and similar things I would suspect
10:08<ic111>LordAro: Now I am surprised.
10:08<ic111>What did you do?
10:08<ic111>andythenorth: Or, if people add more changes to their dayLength patches, what is their goal in doing so?
10:08<LordAro>ic111: i am trying to work that out
10:09<_dp_>Wolf01, I know for sure there will be problems with town gui and GS api :)
10:10<Wolf01>Yes, for sure
10:10<andythenorth>ic111: I have no idea what people do with DL :)
10:10<_dp_>because it kind of assumes TOWN_GROWTH_TICKS ~= TICKS_PER_DAY
10:10<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause gave me a 100% working 2 or 3 line DL patch once
10:10<andythenorth>at the end of every year, it reset the year back again
10:11<andythenorth>it might have had a counter to only do it once
10:11<andythenorth>totally 100% bug free
10:11<Wolf01>I have one patch with 3 characters
10:11<ic111>Thats what I effectively do using the Date cheat
10:11<andythenorth>had some interesting effects on things like…date sensitive industry animations
10:11<andythenorth>and vehicle intro dates
10:11<Wolf01>But for example we need to identify cases where daylength must be applied, like this one: (_tick_counter + t->index) % TOWN_GROWTH_TICKS == 0
10:12<ic111>And using the Date cheat in my experience never caused problems.
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10:12<_dp_>Wolf01, that part doesn't seem affected by tics per day to me
10:13<Wolf01>_dp_: no, but do you want cities to grog 4,8, 10 times faster?
10:14<_dp_>Wolf01, faster in relation to game date not real time, right?
10:14<_dp_>then I actually do
10:14<_dp_>but I understand if some people don't
10:14<milek7>imo problem with daylength is not that it is hard to implement, but everybody have diffirent opinion on how it should work :p
10:15<Wolf01>The only biggest problem with DL is the economy, you have a train moving 8x faster and making 8x more profit for the same "day time"
10:15<Wolf01>Dividing it doesn't work
10:15<Wolf01>You will slow down the entire game pace
10:16<Wolf01>Making 8x more real time to be able to purchase another train
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10:16<Wolf01>So we could compromise on economy, because we keep the same game pace, but just slowing down the time at which new generations will be introduced
10:17<milek7>isn't that the point, to slow down game pace?
10:17<andythenorth>I don’t think there is a single point
10:17<_dp_>Wolf01, yeah, that why I'd leave tick-based stuff intact and suggest using basecost, town speed setting, etc.
10:17<Wolf01>Just one aspect of it
10:17<andythenorth>script daylength with mods
10:17<andythenorth>it’s impossible to do in core
10:18<andythenorth>there is no clear definition of what it is
10:18<LordAro>ic111: so i can reproduce it
10:18<andythenorth>segment and group the places where daylength would be applied (places using ticks)
10:19<andythenorth>define static constants for them
10:19<andythenorth>let newgrf modify those constanst, once, on game start
10:19<LordAro>ic111: make bus route (nothing fancy); set "default" timetable start, offset & length; change timetable length down to 0 months, then to days, then to maximum (20)
10:19<andythenorth>there will be about 8 or so probably
10:19<LordAro>wait a bit; hard freeze
10:19<LordAro>not entirely sure how much of that is necessary
10:19<_dp_>andythenorth, newgrf again :(
10:19<LordAro>but it seems to be stuck in a loop somewhere
10:19<andythenorth>job done
10:20<andythenorth>nobody has to design a feature in core, just an API
10:20<_dp_>andythenorth, it's such a pain to configure server when everything is in a newgrf
10:20<andythenorth>it’s such a pain to have options where none existed before :)
10:20<LordAro>ic111: seems to happen when the bus finishes loading
10:21<Wolf01><andythenorth> nobody has to design a feature in core, just an API <- it would be cool if core allowed it
10:21<andythenorth>well the API has to be in core
10:21<andythenorth>but it abdicates having to make choices
10:21<andythenorth>which is better in this case
10:22<LordAro>ic111: gdb output seems to imply a loop somewhere around CorrectTimetableOffset
10:24<_dp_>andythenorth, you still need to choose an API :p
10:26<ic111>Indeed, setting the timetable length to zero is the problem.
10:27<LordAro>yeah, i've just pinpointed the do {} while loop :)
10:27<_dp_>making and maintaining API is much harder than just regular features, only worth it if there are many mods using that api
10:27<Wolf01>andythenorth: And a DL API should decide to slow down the entire game pace even by slowing down vehicles making them travel a tile in a minute?
10:27<LordAro>looks like it's missing a case for 0
10:27<ic111>If you look into the loop in vehicle_base.h / CorrectTimetableOffset, then I shift the timetable by its length, *and* the exit condition depends on length and min_offset there
10:27<andythenorth>Wolf01: if there’s a constant for that, then yes
10:28<ic111>I just should prevent setting the length to zero, having a timetable of length zero is senseless.
10:28<LordAro>ic111: incidentally, why are those functions in the header? shouldn't they be in the cpp?
10:28<andythenorth>there is literally nobody in the community who could get a daylength patch through, socially
10:28<ic111>(and because of that, I probably never triggered the case during playing ;-))
10:28<Wolf01>I'm open to critiques and debates
10:29<LordAro>ic111: see, having people who have no idea what they're doing is useful
10:29<Wolf01>But I'm also biased
10:29<ic111>LordAro: Good question, probably I tried to mimic what I found before
10:30<LordAro>ic111: in terms of some other feedback, the timetable window shouldn't be default, and i think its minimum size is far too wide
10:30<LordAro>but still despite not knowing how to make it work, it looks a lot better than the current one
10:31<ic111>LordAro: Making it work: Just don´t touch the length = zero case, or did I miss some additional problem?
10:32<ic111>And: I´ll try to add comments in the forum thread with your points, but as you find quite a lot of them, please note problems there if I don´t do it.
10:32<ic111>Getting five bugs / change requests in a chat increases the probability that you miss two of them ;-)
10:33<LordAro>ic111: no, i've just not tried anything much beyond that :p
10:37<ic111>Added feedback there:
10:37*LordAro vanishes
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10:40<ic111>Regarding opening the timetable window: There is a setting "Open timetable view (with orders, arrivals, departures) by default"; so this request is just about which value the setting takes by default
10:40<milek7>for me daylength should: increase ticks per day, lower payment rates
10:41<milek7>and increase cargo production if it is day based (leave unchanged if tick based)
10:42<supermop>ic111 the 24 hour clock works reasonably well for what you describe
10:42<supermop>of course you still end up with thousands of passengers at your station at 04:00
10:44<andythenorth>ic111 do you have a github repo for TIP?
10:45<andythenorth>oh :|
10:45<_dp_>milek7, imo there enough allmighty settings already. one setting should control one thing
10:46<_dp_>milek7, if you want all 3 then do 3, one for daylength, one for payment one for cargo
10:46<andythenorth>if you have a repo, you can ask to get binaries built on the ottd compile farm
10:46<_dp_>but then, again, some if it is newgrfble so nothing gets done :(
10:46<andythenorth>doesn’t have to be github, but eh, why use anything else?
10:47<ic111>There was an attempt to set up an project there some years ago, as far as I remember parts of that project exist.
10:47<andythenorth>I did it for NRT
10:47<andythenorth>just clone openttd git repo
10:47<andythenorth>make a branch
10:47<andythenorth>dunno how you’d get a patch queue in there
10:47<ic111>But things stopped before a repository was actually activated, and at that time, the repository wasn´ t that important as there was someone building windows binaries for me
10:47<andythenorth>queues are daft
10:47<supermop>I feel like nrt is so much easier to test and solve problems with because of that
10:48<andythenorth>queues throw away everything good about a repo, because they’re private
10:48<@Alberth>queues are different
10:48<Wolf01>andythenorth: what if we provide DL factor to grfs? One could use it for calculations?
10:48<andythenorth>Alberth: or have I misunderstood queues?
10:49<@Alberth>depends on how yo see patch files
10:49<@Alberth>I regularly edit and shuffle those files
10:49<@Alberth>which is next to impossible in git
10:49<Wolf01>I'll try a game with DL factor set to 1200
10:50<@Alberth>there is cherry-pick, but you need the entire commit machinery then
10:50<@Alberth>eg rename a variable that you added
10:50<@Alberth>trivial in a diff file
10:52<ic111>It´s also a question of, which tools are you used to. I mean, given that I know how to use patch files, and didn´t use git so far (real world software development in my case is svn), switching to git because of a couple of bugfixes doesn´t seem senseful to me.
10:52<@Alberth>splitting or editing the change
10:53<@Alberth>git branches can't easily be stacked and changed
10:54<@Alberth>ie you have much better access to the changes that you make, rather than only to the state of the file at some point in the patch
10:55<@Alberth>unfortunately, hg seems to be moving away from patch queues too, afaik
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10:56<andythenorth>Wolf01: dunno about providing DL to grfs
10:56<andythenorth>the problem I can forsee there
10:56<andythenorth>is grf authors vs. players
10:56<andythenorth>but eh, am I here to sort out social problems? :P
10:56<Wolf01>Yes, but not alone
10:57<andythenorth>ic111 the upside of going to any repo that the compile farm can build…is binaries
10:57<andythenorth>binaries => more players
10:57<milek7>Alberth: interactive rebasing
10:57*andythenorth would like to see 20 or 30 forks building on farm
10:58<_dp_>andythenorth, oh, if only it worked like that...
10:58<andythenorth>worked for NRT
10:58<andythenorth>which is my sole data point so far
10:58<andythenorth>only way to prove that wrong is try more
10:58<_dp_>andythenorth, idk, feels like it kinda works coz 1 >> 0 (not talking NRT here) but meh...
10:59<@Alberth>milek7: I know that's git solution, but try changing something you changed in some commit spread all over the place
10:59<@Alberth>diff file gives me 1 file to edit
11:00<@Alberth>andI I don't get any match on code I didn't touch
11:00<milek7>commit it, run rebase, move it under original commit you want to modify and change pick to squash
11:01<milek7>but yes, more complicated than patch files ;p
11:01<@Alberth>I have also been editing patches higher in the queue to avoid merge conflicts
11:02<@Alberth>both git and hg are incredibly stupid in understanding there is nothing else but the sequence patches that they have
11:03<_dp_>andythenorth, in other words there are not that many active players so if we make more binaries some of them are bound to get 0 interest
11:04<andythenorth>and yet people apply patches and test them
11:04<andythenorth>forums tell us that
11:04<_dp_>andythenorth, while having binaries may increase interest in a patch it won't increase overall amount of players
11:04<andythenorth>what’s the loss of having binaries?
11:04*andythenorth is confused by the supposed downsides?
11:04<andythenorth>computer does the work
11:05<_dp_>andythenorth, nah, no loss rly, I'd like to see it too
11:05<andythenorth>ok 461 FS issues left
11:06<andythenorth>I have hit maximum boredom now
11:06<andythenorth>I have a list of 15 more that I totally cannot review alone
11:07<_dp_>andythenorth, just "binaries => more players" sounds a bit too enticing :)
11:07*_dp_ hopes he picked a right word out of dictionary
11:07<andythenorth>oh yeah, that was probably lame
11:07<andythenorth>binaries => fractionally higher chance of useful feedback
11:08<andythenorth>this: way out of my wheelhouse
11:08<andythenorth>but 7 years old
11:09<_dp_>andythenorth, it's a hack, but a damn good one :p
11:10<andythenorth> <- isn’t there GS deity for this?
11:11<supermop>I only play binaries
11:11<supermop>can't be asked to compile
11:13<_dp_>andythenorth, I didn't get all the details in that particular bug, but in general server feels very handicapped
11:14<_dp_>andythenorth, I remember some check like that one giving me a lot of troubles
11:14<andythenorth>another one: 10 years old
11:16<_dp_>992 is implemented imo
11:16<_dp_>there is always something to improve
11:17<supermop>what does TIP do?
11:17<andythenorth>ah this
11:17<_dp_>and any stored password is pretty much bound to be unencrypted
11:17<andythenorth>^ this is what I think has fucked OpenTTD a bit
11:18<andythenorth>_dp_: well you could always store the key locally
11:18<andythenorth>what could go wrong?
11:18<_dp_>andythenorth, decryption key you mean?
11:19<_dp_>andythenorth, that's not much different from plain text imo
11:19<andythenorth>well you could put the key in a key store
11:19<andythenorth>and keep the key for that locally
11:19*andythenorth is bored :P
11:19<_dp_>andythenorth, then you have a key to uncrypt a key :p
11:19<andythenorth>can we talk about FIRS now?
11:19<andythenorth>at least that can make progress
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11:25<_dp_>I think we have two mods vanishing already after I gave them access for configuring new firs server xD
11:27<andythenorth>too much FIRS
11:27<_dp_>too much work I guess
11:28<_dp_>it's a cb so you need to balance it properly
11:28<_dp_>and find right grfs for everything
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11:29<supermop>what needs to be fixed in unspooled?
11:30<_dp_>also custom industry sets need custom mapgens in cb to fairly place industries for everyone
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11:41<andythenorth>supermop: find some FS issues to close, and I’ll tell you? o_O
11:41<andythenorth>actually I don’t know :)
11:53<Wolf01>I'm still reasoning about balancing income and running costs
11:56<Wolf01>Maybe I should think about it while lucid dreaming, so I have a lot more time, but it's difficult and I always get up with headache
12:04<supermop>hmm should I composit on tram bogies?
12:05<supermop>vanilla RVs are 7/8
12:05<supermop>need to redo whole template
12:06<supermop>also... I take 1/8 in _ to be 4px
12:06<supermop>and 2 px in ?
12:06<supermop>and 1.5 in |
12:06<supermop>feel like I don't like that somehow
12:07<supermop>also I guess this is why all my bendy buses have such a gap
12:09<supermop>if I build my trams out of 1/8 end cabs, and n*2/8 body segments, some of which may have wheels...
12:09<supermop>I am generally happy
12:10<supermop>but there is no natural place to put doors, espescially on older trams
12:10<andythenorth>bendy trams
12:11<supermop>if I make the cabs 2/8 that works better for end doors, and modern aerodynamic cabs
12:11<supermop>but then its unclear where to put the wheels, as the shortest trams will be all cab
12:12<supermop>so can just make different rules for each generation of tram, but then why even bother with a system
12:14<supermop>I guess compositing on doors could work
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12:28<Eddi|zuHause>the trams that i know usually have doors near the cab
12:28<Eddi|zuHause>and sometimes in the middle
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12:31<Eddi|zuHause>(that middle door is in a separate bendy section)
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12:48<supermop_home>Eddi|zuHause does that segment have wheels?
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12:50<supermop_home>the anglo American world doesn't have enough yellow buildings
12:50<supermop_home>SE Asia, latin america, central and eastern Europe all have lots
12:51<supermop_home>color never caught on here
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>make east german houses: all grey
13:04<supermop_home>what about before the war?
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>about the wheels: you see the little cutouts at the bottom? that's where the wheels are:,_Potsdam,_Neubauten_am_Platz_der_Einheit_(cropped).jpg
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_home: i don't know about before the war... all relevant pictures are black and white
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13:15<Wolf01>supermop_home: with good accuracy you can go for brick-yellow and copper-oxyde for roofs
13:15<Wolf01>But it might vary between different places
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13:27<andythenorth>now what shall I do?
13:27<andythenorth>test patches?
13:48<@Alberth>2837 could be done by saving the game and loading it again?
13:52<@Alberth>5390 needs that nogo change, and even then I am not convinced, ie why would you need an event for a destroyed house?
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13:59<andythenorth>Alberth: I’ll close 2837
14:01<andythenorth>5390 - it’s an anti-griefing measure according to forum thread
14:01<andythenorth>prevents vandalism on city-builder goal servers
14:01*andythenorth didn’t read the whole thread :P
14:03<andythenorth>@calc 840-459
14:03<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 381
14:03<andythenorth>after about 300 ‘no’, it’s getting harder to say ‘no’ :)
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 33*49
14:03<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 1617
14:03<andythenorth>esp. about stuff I domn’t understand
14:04<andythenorth>this would be dependent on the OS?
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>whenever a game works like that, i immediately disable it
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>but yes, that code would probably be platform specific
14:10<andythenorth>I don’t really want to highlight fonso for this one
14:10<andythenorth>that request is basically bollocks, no?
14:14<andythenorth>I have NFI how you could have ’10% cargo dist'
14:14<andythenorth>and 90% manual
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14:16<@Alberth>2155 seems a good feature
14:16<@Alberth>not used much likely, as there are very few dedicated servers
14:18<frosch123>ottd command line could use a redesign :)
14:18<frosch123>it has many weird things, but lacks close related ones
14:18<@Alberth>technically, you can allocate less than 100% capacity for a line to CD
14:19<@Alberth>which means you have space left
14:19<frosch123>i believe there are multiple fs tasks about console options
14:19<@Alberth>not sure how you get pax to enter such a train though
14:19<@Alberth>as CD has to decide which pax not to move itself
14:19<frosch123>like, it's exactly the case where every single fs task is bad, but by combining them you can put together something sane
14:20<frosch123>like, why in the world is there a parameter to set the starting year?
14:21<andythenorth>because we don’t have tags, I have been prefixing stuff in the titles
14:21<andythenorth>I can’t make much use of categories
14:21<andythenorth>currently you can search e.g. “Timetable:”, “Orders:” “Scenario Editor:”
14:21<andythenorth>trying to group stuff
14:22<andythenorth>w.r.t 6466, unless I misunderstood cdist
14:22<andythenorth>most of the magic happens when moving cargo into and out of vehicles
14:23<frosch123>i have no experience with cdist, but i remember that there is cargo with unassigned destination sometimes
14:23<frosch123>possibly only intermediate until the next calculation finishes
14:23<andythenorth>that will be loaded onto vehicles without established links afaik
14:23<andythenorth>actually no real clue :)
14:24<andythenorth>but anyway, I cannot think how to even describe “10% manual and 90% cdist”
14:24<andythenorth>or whatever
14:25<@Alberth>"unassigned" it will hop on to any unfilled train
14:25<@Alberth>frosch, is one you discussed with eddi
14:26<@Alberth>andy, the problem is likely how to point out pasengers that should not be routed by cdist
14:27<@Alberth>hmm, likely you can even do that given the capacity on a train
14:27<@Alberth>with a few unassigned, that should do the trick
14:28<frosch123>Alberth: i do not see much point in a single seed variable
14:28<frosch123>how much can you randomise with 32bits for everything?
14:29<V453000>I see '32bits' and my eyes get red
14:29<V453000>brain starts to boil
14:29<V453000>you get the point
14:29<frosch123>so you would rather need something which gives you a new random number every time
14:31<@Alberth>so, obsolete?
14:31<frosch123>hmm, how was it worded in that c++ conference: we are not opposed to the idea, but it requires more thought on the etails
14:31<@Alberth>fair enough
14:32<@Alberth>andy, 5464 delivers 1 unit of cargo in round robin fashion to the industries, that will take forever to distribute eg ship deliveries
14:33<andythenorth>close that
14:33<frosch123>"EWG found the use case compelling, because (...). Several details still need to be worked out. "
14:33<andythenorth>w.r.t to the seed, is anyone actually planning to use it?
14:34<andythenorth>is it even a pony?
14:34<frosch123>andythenorth: how does sound for a closing reason? :p
14:36<andythenorth>frosch123: add a closing category “no pony today” ?
14:38<frosch123>advanced settings selection is ill-formed, no diagnostics required
14:39<frosch123>did i read too many c++ papers lately?
14:39<LordAro>*not enough
14:42<andythenorth>Alberth: should I close 5646, or does it need a fairer review?
14:43<andythenorth>it’s only 2013, if it was older I’d bin it
14:43<@Alberth>5464, I hope
14:43<@Alberth>ie cargo to multiple industries
14:43<@Alberth>patch is not fast enough
14:43<andythenorth>we could just extend cdist
14:44<andythenorth>create virtual links for move-to-industry
14:44<@Alberth>you don't distribute 1000 candies one-by-one to 25 children
14:44<andythenorth>or…use stations near the N tile and stop worrying about it
14:44<andythenorth>ah…it’s lipstick on a pig, but if it was indicated at the station which industry was actually accepting…
14:44<andythenorth>that would help :P
14:45<@Alberth>closest to the label afaik
14:46<@Alberth>I can see the value in the issue, but the solution just uses the wrong approach
14:46<@Alberth>it needs to calculate how to distribute, and then do it in one sweep
14:47<Wolf01><Alberth> you don't distribute 1000 candies one-by-one to 25 children <- why not? And I also wait they finish the previous one before giving them another
14:47<@Alberth>try 10 candies :p
14:47<Wolf01>10 candies to 25 children could be a challenge
14:48<@Alberth>not for speed, most likely :p
14:48<Wolf01>Maybe I should just put one against the other in a battle royale and give all of them to the survivor
14:49<Wolf01>And I think that is what happened with the industries, one won
14:52<andythenorth>station names…again
14:53<andythenorth>that one is just a yes/no even for the principle
14:54<@Alberth>does an industry always have a station name?
14:54<@Alberth>in particular, does default set have that?
14:55<@Alberth>likely you can get away with defining an industry without a station name
14:56<@Alberth>if so, something has to produce station names
14:57<@Alberth>which would be "player names", as these are the only available names
14:57<@Alberth>if stations must always provide a name, then it's a matterof changing the code into assigning
14:58<Wolf01>Make it an API
14:58<Wolf01>So it can be defined via grf
14:58<Wolf01>andythenorth would be happy
14:58<@Alberth>which would at least be feasible in the latter case
14:59<@Alberth>you can have station names in newgrf, I am asking if it's obligatory
14:59<@Alberth>ie is there always a name specific for an indsutry?
15:00<@Alberth>if not, the entire idea isn't even feasible currently
15:01<Wolf01>With specific name you mean like "Fartbottom Coal mine"?
15:02<andythenorth>it goes to “town coal mine #3” or something
15:02*andythenorth tests
15:02<Wolf01>Industries for sure have a city bound
15:03<Wolf01>andythenorth: NoStationNames spec
15:05<andythenorth>goes as far as “Lower [town name]” then “[town name] Station #16"
15:05<andythenorth>changing original gameplay is against our objectives?
15:05<andythenorth>so 6017 can be closed
15:06<andythenorth>also, players will complain
15:06<Wolf01>andythenorth: bah
15:06<andythenorth>that doesn’t mean much, but in this case they will ask why station names for industries are now bugged
15:06<andythenorth>because they all go to numbers
15:07<andythenorth>unless we just patch oil rigs
15:07<andythenorth>but that will likely also get applied to newgrf industries using the station tile
15:08*andythenorth closes it
15:12<V453000>well shit
15:12<V453000>I was trying to use lists as templates :D
15:13*andythenorth probably misunderstood
15:14<andythenorth>LordAro: want to add your gist to this? o_O
15:14<@Alberth>deepcopy is the brute-force approach :p
15:14<V453000>was doing dumb shit
15:15<V453000>need to convert it to functions or something I guess
15:15<andythenorth>openttdcoop lost it’s cert?
15:15*andythenorth getting warnings
15:16<V453000>:d wot
15:16<andythenorth>SSL seems to be broken
15:16<andythenorth>only according to Google
15:17<andythenorth>anyway, V453000 all those [n+1, n+1, n+1] offsets
15:17<andythenorth>is it always n+1, n+2 etc?
15:17<andythenorth>looks like you don’t need to write that out
15:17<V453000>usually, sometimes it's hardcoded number
15:17<V453000>there's a weird pattern
15:17<andythenorth>probably fine written out then
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15:18<V453000>it's n, n+1, n+2 for the first index, but for example n+7, n+6, n+5 for the last index
15:18<V453000>which means they go against each other and eventually they meet somehow
15:18<V453000>which I edit manually
15:18<V453000>which is why it's all written out yeah
15:18<andythenorth>which lucky patch shall I test first? :P
15:19<andythenorth>they are mostly unappealing eh?
15:19<andythenorth>hth can we make testing patches more fun? o_O
15:19<andythenorth>it’s totally like eating unwanted vegetables right now
15:20<andythenorth>so it’s not like I asked people to send me this work
15:20<andythenorth>same goes for devs eh?
15:24<_dp_>I think it's only worth testing patches that are somewhat reviewed
15:24<_dp_>or where testing also kind of reviewing, like UI patches
15:26<andythenorth>there’s still 75 to review in that case
15:26<V453000>oh wtf
15:27<V453000>loading BRIX with NUTS could cause desyncs
15:27<V453000>BRIX disables itself
15:27<frosch123>when static and non-static grfs try to mess with each other, the static one is dropped
15:27<andythenorth>@seen supercheese
15:27<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: supercheese was last seen in #openttd 20 hours, 46 minutes, and 37 seconds ago: <Supercheese> and that's good enough for me
15:27<V453000>I guess that's because NUTS is trying to check for signals
15:28<V453000>jeez :D
15:28<V453000>I guess that only happens for multiplayer, right?
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>happens always
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>need to load BRIX non-static, or drop the check from NUTS
15:29<V453000>why don't I get the error in single player then ._.
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>hm, then i don't know
15:30<V453000>well if it's desync related protection I would understand it only applying to MP
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, the thing is, the NUTS check cannot have different result depending on whether static BRIX is loaded or not, so the only valid solution is to always not load BRIX
15:31<V453000>yes, or load it normally without static
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but that must be done by the server owner
15:33<V453000>of course
15:36<frosch123>what should i do with all the fish that i accidentially get from destruction robots?
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>give it to the dolphins?
15:37<frosch123>that achievement has no hints how to get it
15:37<frosch123>it's an easter dophin or something
15:37<V453000>put fish into rocket, launch it
15:37<frosch123>he, i tried that
15:37<frosch123>did not work
15:38<Wolf01>Did you try to put them on the water again?
15:38<frosch123>i actually got excited when i thought about the rocket
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15:38<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i just randomly said that, didn't know there was an achievement :p
15:38<frosch123>and now you tell me that it should actually work? :o
15:39<Wolf01>Try to put 42 fishes on the rocket
15:40<frosch123>hmm, i only launched one
15:40<frosch123>what is the stack size for fish?
15:44<andythenorth>SPACE as hotkey? o_O
15:45<_dp_>YES PLIZ
15:45<frosch123>andythenorth: i would like smarter hotkeys
15:45<_dp_>and tab :)
15:45<frosch123>like rotate selected object
15:45<andythenorth>presumably we can’t just give every UI control a UUID?
15:45<andythenorth>and then let players map keys to UUIDs?
15:46*andythenorth looks how it works
15:46<_dp_>andythenorth, an entry in hotkeys.cfg is a nice UUID ;)
15:47<frosch123>andythenorth: not everything has a gui button
15:47<frosch123>like all those weird cycle signal type
15:47<frosch123>or toggle depot orientation
15:48<_dp_>rotate hotkey would be very nice, it's the one probably missing the most right now
15:49<_dp_>or mb more like cycle hotkey indeed, that cycles signals too
15:50<andythenorth>“First join us on irc, and discuss what you are trying to achieve"
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15:50<andythenorth>“Patches with no prior discussion are rarely accepted from contributors who aren’t known to us"
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>i always want to reply to suggestion threads like "how did nobody ever think of that before?" and each word is a link to a previous suggestion about the exact same thing. but then i can't be bothered to look for all those threads
15:51<andythenorth>“It can be disheartening to attach a patch to the tracker and then nobody even comments. To avoid this, conversation in advance is best"
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15:51<andythenorth>“Discussing in irc is still no guarantee, and some days the channel is quiet."
15:51<andythenorth>“But eh, it’s just more fun this way.”
15:52<andythenorth>“FS ticket comments are a poor way to have a conversation, and can seem very formal, cold, dismissive or rude when not intended to be any of those"
15:53<andythenorth>“Often it turns out that individual patches aren’t much use in isolation, or are fixing part of a bigger issue.”
15:53<andythenorth>“Only when the bigger issue is tackled is it worth the effort to change OpenTTD”
15:53<andythenorth>or something
15:53<_dp_>and bundled together they are too big to review :p
15:55<supermop_home>tram segment sprites, assuming each part can have and either end: a cab, a 'blind' end with no cab, or a gangway to next vehicle
15:57<andythenorth>“Sometimes patches get no comments simply because NOBODY LIKES YOUR IDEA, but nobody wants to say so in case it looks rude ;)”
15:57<supermop_home>not all combinations are likely to occur, so I don't need nomeclature that covers everything
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_home: so what was the question?
15:57<andythenorth>supermop_: got a mockup?
15:58<frosch123>btw. i am interested in learning xslt
15:58<supermop_home>but something like " A is a part with 2 cabs. B is a part with one cab and one gangway. C is a part with one cab and one blind end. D is a part with two gangways. E is a part with two blind ends. F is a part with one gangway and one blind end. etc
15:59<supermop_home>is not very helpful or intuitive
15:59<frosch123>so if you can find a use case to use xslt in ottd / some patch... :p
15:59<supermop_home>other way is something like A= cab, b= gangway etc, and call each one "part_X_AB" etc
16:00<supermop_home>but it seems clunky to use so many digits
16:00*_dp_ tried to understand xslt few times but failed
16:00<@Alberth>very silly language
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_home: parts with gangway are articulated front/middle/end, parts without gangway are front/end
16:01<supermop_home>Eddi|zuHause some older tram might have articulated parts with no gangway
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>so cab+gangway = articulated front, gangway+gangway = articulated middle, gangway+blind = articulated end
16:01<andythenorth>frosch123: I am trying desperately to get xslt out of my life
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>cab+blind = front, blind+blind = end
16:01<andythenorth>eh the website is django?
16:01*andythenorth wonders if it’s running a wsgi stack
16:02<supermop_home>question is mostly, how to give these sprites short but meaningful systematic names
16:02<andythenorth>actually doesn’t matter, Diazo works outside WSGI
16:02<andythenorth>if you want to learn xslt, we can reskin the website without touching django
16:03<andythenorth>you will then learn why that is a terrible idea, unless you have literally no control over the website code (happens when you’re selling consulting services sometimes)
16:03<supermop_home>ooops forgot wheels
16:04<_dp_>andythenorth, omg, instead of fixing the website let's write another website that will fix our website?
16:04<andythenorth>a theming layer
16:04<andythenorth>there are valid use cases
16:04<andythenorth>they’re not common
16:04<frosch123>hmm, this time the fish worked
16:04<frosch123>i wonder what i misclicked last time
16:05<andythenorth><replace fish=“click” content=“click” />
16:05<andythenorth>so eh, 75 patches to review
16:05<frosch123>i also do not find a way to put them back into the water
16:06<_dp_>andythenorth, spamming identical websites?
16:06<frosch123>blue prints to not capture fish population
16:06<frosch123>and i cannot put them manually either
16:06<andythenorth>of those 75, only 2 interest me
16:06<andythenorth>and 1 just fixes a type in code :P
16:06<andythenorth>typo *
16:06<frosch123>maybe i can put them into the reactor
16:07<andythenorth>there are maybe 5 more patches that are like “I should look at this to be a good person"
16:07<andythenorth>but eh, it’s boring isn’t it/
16:07*_dp_ not sure if frosch is talking about fish or patches
16:07<andythenorth>patches are my problem today
16:07<andythenorth>frosch123 is fishing
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>you think being a good person is boring?
16:07<andythenorth>when pushed to answer
16:08<V453000>:D foundation sprite 1666 is broken
16:08<V453000>how ironic
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>you know, the number 666 being evil has nothing to do with it being a 6 repeated 3 times
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>because back when that story was written, the "arabic numbers" weren't invented yet
16:09<andythenorth>it’s just Nero isn’t it?
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>yes, allegedly, probably
16:09<andythenorth>unless that’s false flag :P
16:10<andythenorth>wheels in wheels in wheels
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>but still, back then the number 666 would be written with greek letters
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>or hebrew letters
16:10<andythenorth>so patches via FS - mostly dead then? o_O
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>and they were different letters for 6, 60 and 600
16:11<frosch123>V453000: so 1666 contains every roman number exactly once, and sorted? MDCLXVI
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: that misses the double-M and double-D
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>for 5000 and 10000
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>other way round
16:11<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: if i accept those, it's infinite
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>not really
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16:14<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: also, you can make a chain 16/166/1666/... or 6/16/66/166/...
16:14<frosch123>the reactor does not accept fish
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: try mr fusion from the far future of 2017?
16:16<V453000>frosch123: yet
16:22<V453000>I fixed a BRIX bug \o/
16:22<V453000>was productive :D
16:22<andythenorth>I avoided finishing FIRS
16:22<andythenorth>or even thinking about newgrf
16:23*andythenorth has had holiday in Flyspray
16:23<V453000>by making sure finishing of other people ideas was avoided? :D
16:23<V453000>such win iz
16:23<andythenorth>V453000: you should get ‘close ticket’ rights :)
16:23<andythenorth>would be spree for you
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16:24<V453000>would iz
16:24<V453000>haz time to read ticket not
16:24*andythenorth either
16:24<V453000>my cat language is getting less readable by the minute
16:24<andythenorth>total sense makes to me
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16:24<V453000>k rawr
16:26<andythenorth>is nice to have break from newgrf
16:26<andythenorth>probly time haz FIRS 3 done
16:26<V453000>I guess :)
16:26<V453000>I'm just going through BRIX and wondering what do I REALLY want to do for next version
16:26<V453000>is a bunch of smaller fixes which isn't particularly fun to do :D but eh
16:26<V453000>might also rework all trees
16:27<V453000>yeah I should do that first
16:28<V453000>need a break from the python thing for today
16:28<andythenorth>trees not aweome awlready?
16:28<V453000>rewriting that index definition needs to be left for tomorrow
16:28<V453000>trees are super fucked
16:28<V453000>some of them are good
16:28<V453000>but most of them are not and are totally different style from good ones
16:28<V453000>+ no trees for arctic, tropic or toyland, and some missing for temperate
16:30<V453000>but yeah otoh 344 models or how many
16:32<andythenorth>which is good? o_O
16:33<V453000>that's kind of insane
16:34<andythenorth>do all same tree? o_O
16:34<andythenorth>1 model
16:35<V453000>I'd like to avoid that
16:35<V453000>might just do something simplistic
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16:36*andythenorth will await results
16:36<andythenorth>now such sleep
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16:41<Wolf01>Such thunderstorm
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17:52<Eddi|zuHause>now, is the result of "such sleep" actually "find sleep"? [sorry, joke works better if you know german]
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17:55<Wolf01>Eh, ISP got nuked by blackout
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>you're in serious need of a new ISP
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19:13<Shoshonite>Does anyone know where the Oil Refinery sprites are hidden from OpenGFX I can't even find a reference to them in the Sauce
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19:44<Sylf>You'll need to look in the source. No sauce or salsa or soup will contain those sprites.
19:51<Eddi|zuHause>use the sauce
19:52<Sylf> A part of that looks like oil refinery
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20:19<wroom>hello, anyone up?
20:20<wroom>anyone knows where to find more info about writing AI scripts?
20:21<wroom>nevermind just found this:
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---Logclosed Sun Aug 20 00:00:21 2017