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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-08-21

---Logopened Mon Aug 21 00:00:22 2017
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03:47<andythenorth>LordAro: did you have a patch for that? o_O
03:48<LordAro>not a complete one
03:48<LordAro>although it would just be a case of changing the if statement as sirkoz did
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03:56<andythenorth>lo Wolf01
03:57<andythenorth>what are ‘Cities’ in OpenTTD?
03:57*andythenorth should probably look in wiki eh
03:58<andythenorth>that shouldn’t exist :P
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04:01<Wolf01>So 6601 and 6602 are actually related? We should specify that with the "related tasks" feature instead of comments
04:02<andythenorth>I couldn’t see it
04:02<Wolf01>It's the next tab near comments
04:02<andythenorth>ok that’s useful
04:02<andythenorth>looks disabled :P
04:02<andythenorth>we need a new theme
04:03<Wolf01>Yes, FS1.0 has a nicer UI
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04:14<andythenorth>tried another
04:15<Wolf01>andythenorth: did you see last line of yesterday's log? :P
04:19<andythenorth>lego such?
04:19<Wolf01>Speed build contest, 4th place because we didn't cheat :P
04:19<andythenorth>no cheating!
04:19*andythenorth bbl
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05:10<_dp_>city proportion setting in somewhat useful actually
05:10<_dp_>unlike many other settings :p
05:11<_dp_>or, tbh I should say that's one of not so many settings that actually varies across our servers :)
05:12<_dp_>coz some stuff like smooth economy obviously doesn't :p
05:13<andythenorth>yeah it’s probably legit
05:13*andythenorth thinks it should be in script layer, but eh
05:14<V453000>hy humenz
05:14<andythenorth>also V453000
05:14<_dp_>imo none of the stuff that configures something that's embedded in game should be in any kind of layer
05:14<_dp_>mb is some advanced config but not netwgrfs, gs, etc
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05:15<_dp_>basecosts, industry chances, towngen settings, etc., etc., etc.
05:15<_dp_>industry chances for standard industry set ofc
05:15<V453000>andythenorth: ever used the argparser? For some reason my bool parameters work weirdly - if the default is True, then it is always true and if I use parameter it won't change that ... if the default is False, and I use for example - x True, it works correctly. But when I use -x False, it will also make it True, like if the bool is just checking if there's anything in the parameter. Any idea wtf? :D
05:16<V453000>also I am searching for a name for the script
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05:16<V453000>RGB DESTROYER or RGB DOZER are candidates
05:17<_dp_>V453000, iirc it's controlled by action='store_true/false'
05:18<andythenorth>V453000: seems I just use sys.argv
05:18<andythenorth>which is a bit limited and flakey IMO
05:19<V453000>_dp_: need to research something about that, feels like I read something similar earlier
05:19<_dp_>V453000, try action='store_true' instead of type=bool
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05:19<_dp_>and required ofc makes no sense
05:20<_dp_>V453000, though it works without argument, like if there is -x it's true, if no it's false
05:21<V453000>that's alright :) trying
05:23*_dp_ was fixing some argparse for my work half an hour ago
05:25<V453000>seems to work, thank you :)
05:26<V453000>now I need to figure out if I actually want the "defaults" to be false XD
05:29<andythenorth>_dp_: if ‘city’ wasn’t a flag in game, but controlled by town growth script, that would be…better :D
05:29*andythenorth proposes
05:30<_dp_>andythenorth, no, coz instead of changing it in config to configure server you'll have to write a script
05:31<andythenorth>someone else will do that for you….right? o_O
05:31<andythenorth>"let a thousand flower bloom”
05:31<_dp_>andythenorth, no one usually does :p
05:32<andythenorth>sad times :(
05:32<andythenorth>I am biased
05:32<andythenorth>I live in a world where industry and cargos are totally under my control
05:32<_dp_>andythenorth, but anyway, imo it's a very bad idea to move settings for core logic to scripts
05:32<andythenorth>I was thinking of the logic too
05:33<andythenorth>why does the game need to distinguish town/city?
05:33<_dp_>andythenorth, I would understand if script controlled the whole town placement, then, yes, it should have it's own settings
05:33<andythenorth>why not move growth out of core completely? o_O
05:33<_dp_>andythenorth, but for core game town generator settings should be also in core game
05:33<andythenorth>completely moddable, within limits of API
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05:33<andythenorth>pragmatically you’re probably right
05:33<_dp_>andythenorth, cities grow twice as fast
05:34<andythenorth>on a JFDI model, yeah, it’s better to have a setting
05:34<_dp_>andythenorth, like cb servers usually only allow players to claim towns and have cities neutral
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05:35<_dp_>andythenorth, have a nice side-effect that you can easily tell one from other
05:35<_dp_>andythenorth, well, that may be patch actually, don't remember xD
05:40<_dp_>andythenorth, btw if you move everything out of core then default game will be extremely dull
05:40<_dp_>andythenorth, you still need some town geration script enabled by default
05:40<andythenorth>depends what it ships with
05:40<andythenorth>it will also be _really_ easy to mod, or use for patchpacks
05:41<andythenorth>reduced combinatorial shit
05:41<andythenorth>except…when the mods conflict :P
05:41<V453000>I guess the parameter defaults then make no sense for the ones which do the store_true or store_false, right?
05:41<andythenorth>Wolf01: closed another
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05:41<andythenorth>game has _4_ kinds of Oil Wells industry
05:41<andythenorth>kind of a clue :)
05:41<_dp_>V453000, yep
05:41*andythenorth also tried all the industry grfs in one game before :P
05:42<V453000>cool :>
05:42<V453000>changes applied, tyvm
05:42<V453000>seems to work
05:45<_dp_>andythenorth, well, if logic ships with game and is configurable from config it makes no difference how is it implemented, in script or in core
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05:45<andythenorth>it does to those writing mods :)
05:45<andythenorth>but yes
05:45<andythenorth>potato / potato
05:45<_dp_>andythenorth, it's just that atm there aren't many mods shipped with the game ;)
05:46<andythenorth>well there’s openttd.grf :P
05:46<_dp_>andythenorth, yeah, that's why I didn't say "no mods" :)
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05:48<_dp_>would be nice to have at least basecost in bundle btw
05:49<_dp_>and manual industries, even though it's technically a custom industry set
05:49<_dp_>newgrf configuration is a mess though
05:50<_dp_>as is GS
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05:52<andythenorth>_dp_: for a short time, there were some nice MP goal games played, mostly with me and core devs
05:52<andythenorth>when GS like NCG and Silicon Valley came out
05:52<andythenorth>nice 1 or 2 hour games in an evening
05:52<andythenorth>problem was
05:52<andythenorth>takes 45 mins - 1 hour to configure the fricking game :P
05:53<andythenorth>and 1 wrong setting borks the goal
05:53<_dp_>andythenorth, yep, takes forever to properly configure a server
05:54<_dp_>andythenorth, have same issue with events too, little testing -> big chance something will go wrong
05:55<andythenorth>playing MP goals is probably most fun I’ve had playing OpenTTD
05:55<andythenorth>caused me to see new playing styles too
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06:17<_dp_>"Every extension proposal should be required to be accompanied by a kidney. People would submit only serious proposals, and nobody would submit more than two."
06:17<_dp_>looks like nice solution to fs problem :p
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06:18<_dp_>but then again, it was said by member of c++ standartization committee in early 90s...
06:18<SpComb>that sounds like an appropriate approach for adding new things to C++
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06:35<Wolf01> really
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07:36<andythenorth>closed one, with a win
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07:39<andythenorth>this needs a review :)
07:45<andythenorth>makes groups suck less
07:46<LordAro>but does it make them great again?
07:55<V453000>that is actually really missing fo the groups
07:55<V453000>to the point where it's even rather hard that it's actually a subgroup I feel
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08:10<andythenorth>V453000: can haz words?
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08:11<andythenorth>+/-1 to foldable groups?
08:11<V453000>I would definitely say +1 if it's not a giant pain in the ass to code. To me it's what makes the feature of sub-groups explained and complete. Currently it's nice but missing this.
08:11<V453000>my 2c
08:13<andythenorth>yeah, currently is crippled
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08:23<_dp_>can we switch to toml for config file?
08:23<Wolf01>I think at least 75% of my development time is to try to fix linker errors
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08:35<andythenorth>is toml what mercurial uses?
08:35<andythenorth>looks familiar
08:36<_dp_>andythenorth, dunno, but rust uses it for sure
08:36<_dp_>andythenorth, it's also quite ini-like
08:37<Eddi|zuHause>so can you explain the differences in 3 sentences?
08:38<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, can in one
08:38<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, it's more expressive
08:38<Wolf01> we need this
08:38<Wolf01>But as a bus
08:38<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, things like GS configuration could be made into a tables instead of those hacky string-map-things
08:39<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, also all nested tables could be separated like yapf* or npf* but that no big issue
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: grf config is kind of a mess, currently
08:40<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, also it has proper lists instead of again string-like-comma-separated hacks
08:41<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, grf config is a huge mess coz it's a list not even map/dictionary/table, idk if there are parameter names in newgrfs but if so they could be easily expressed with toml tables
08:41<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, and if not then, again, at least there are proper lists
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: main problem with grfs is that they could be identified through filename, grf-id or grf-id+md5
08:44<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, well, config format makes no difference to that
08:46<Wolf01>I need some help for the correct order of headers, I'm moving the SwitchToMode to another file and no matter if I put some functions declarations it uses in the openttd.h, as extern or what, I always get unresolved external
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08:48<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: external symbols are never in header files, only references to symbols. there must be one .cpp file which contains the actual symbol
08:49<Wolf01>Yes, they are on openttd.cpp as static functions, but if I move them too I could easily leave all into openttd.cpp because it would mean to move everything
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: if you're making a new .cpp file, make sure you add it to source.list and regenerate the project files
08:50<Wolf01>Already done it
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08:51<Eddi|zuHause>did you close and reopen the project?
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: linker errors are almost definitely unrelated to .h order
08:52<Wolf01>I think is because they are static
08:52<Wolf01>And I fell on the same pit trap
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>uhm, yes, "static" means "don't create a linker symbol"
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>if you want the linker to find it, you must remove static
08:55<__ln__>greetings from the land widely considered a part of germany
08:55<Eddi|zuHause>fake news!
08:55<Eddi|zuHause>you're widely exaggerating the value of "widely"
08:56<__ln__>widely abroad
08:58<Wolf01>Ok, removing static worked
09:16<Wolf01>Now I need to ponder the best way of doing the GameState object
09:16<Wolf01>Seem that the singleton way + global variable was not well accepted
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09:27<supermop_>so trams work
09:28<supermop_>but then i stayed up late last night making a ton of switches for trolley poles and pantographs
09:30<supermop_>now i want to add more switches to choose between trolley poles and old fashioned pantographs and bow collectors
09:31<Wolf01> yeah, every day is always better
09:31<Wolf01>supermop_: pics or didn't happen
09:31<supermop_>melbourne went straight from poles to modern pantographs in the 80s
09:32<supermop_>but in eastern europe pictures suggest they had pantographs from the 20s or so
09:33<supermop_>Wolf01: let me put grf onto my work computer
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09:41<andythenorth>all this OpenTTD admin eh
09:41*andythenorth ducking FIRS 3 sprites
09:41<supermop_>now im tempted to draw more pantos
09:43<Wolf01>Just called my ISP, which for sure will state that it's a problem of mine and I must pay for fix
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10:02<supermop_>yo Alberth
10:03<supermop_>what to call the little heqs style trains?
10:03<supermop_>they aren't exactly a tram
10:04<supermop_>calling them a minimum gauge train suggests that the trams are also like 600mm or 1'
10:04<supermop_>'industrial train' just sounds like any freight train
10:05<@Alberth>to me that's a industry-owned train driving around at its site
10:05<supermop_>yeah thats like part of the industry
10:05<supermop_>not a player built vehicle
10:06<@Alberth>small freight train?
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10:09<@Alberth>just give it a nice name of itself, rather than an indication on what kind of train it is
10:11<supermop_>its for the parameter string
10:16<Wolf01>o/ Alberth
10:16<andythenorth>micro trains!
10:17<andythenorth>supermop_: I call them industrial railways
10:17<andythenorth>but that might be a UK thing
10:17<andythenorth>I was going to add them to Road Hog, once we decide if NRT is dead or not
10:23<supermop_>well i'll keep making things for nrt
10:23<andythenorth>if I implement them I’m going to ignore the gauge
10:23<andythenorth>it’s not relevant
10:23<andythenorth>the main thing is...
10:23<andythenorth>well I’ll post a screenshot actually
10:23<supermop_>they whole sidewalks etc thing is nice to have, not critical for nrt to work
10:25<andythenorth>HEQS Renewal Set :P
10:26<andythenorth>that is kind of the original image for HEQS trams, Dan sent it to me years ago
10:26<andythenorth>was fake then
10:26<andythenorth>the main thing is that they are long mini-micro trains, with all wagons looking same
10:26<andythenorth>so they are like little worms going around
10:27<FLHerne>What we Really Need are proper little tracks that can be built on half a tile each
10:27<FLHerne>Complete with signalling and things
10:27<FLHerne>Well, quarter-tiles
10:28<Wolf01>ISP called back "here all works fine"
10:28<supermop_>FLHerne: well even full size rails are narrower than a two-lane street with sidewalks
10:28<andythenorth>What We Really Need
10:29<andythenorth>FLHerne: zoome out :P
10:29<supermop_>its the old, "make everything but tracks bigger"
10:29<supermop_>which would probably be fine
10:29<supermop_>have to build roads one lane at a time
10:29<andythenorth>I hate all that shit :P
10:30<andythenorth>hate is way too strong a word
10:30<supermop_>anyone look at this:
10:30<andythenorth>it strongly disinterests me :P
10:30<supermop_>andythenorth: i wouldn't hate it, its just out of scope
10:31<FLHerne>Scale in OTTD is annoying
10:31<supermop_>'make a new, different game' not usually in the scope of 'make the first game'
10:31<supermop_>sometimes i guess it is though
10:31<FLHerne>If I let my cities grow to a sensible scale relative to the railways
10:31<andythenorth>a few of juanjo’s patches would need to get to trunk-ready before anything like airports would get looked at
10:31<supermop_>hence RCT
10:31<FLHerne>So they can have a proper suburban network and things
10:31<andythenorth>also airports is a horribly proven source of drama and fail
10:32<FLHerne>They take up all the map space and everything looks too crowded
10:32<supermop_>andythenorth: not saying it should go in trunk, but it was fun to watch
10:32<supermop_>much like whoever's shunting patch years ago
10:33<supermop_>at scale ORD is probably bigger than a 64x64 map
10:36<andythenorth>Alberth: fancy reviewing a UI patch? o_O
10:37<LordAro>andythenorth: i'm happy to go through juanjo's stuff and work out what needs doing
10:37<andythenorth>he has found some…odd stuff…to fix :)
10:37<andythenorth>seems quite persistent, not always obvious what the motivation is :)
10:37<supermop_>what's remaining dealbreaker on NRT?
10:37<supermop_>should i keep working on this set?
10:38<andythenorth>supermop_: waiting for peter1138 to declare us insane and just commit what’s done?
10:38<andythenorth>we’re stuck with the last 20%
10:38<andythenorth>me and frosch have talked ourselves out onto a ledge about ground types
10:38<andythenorth>$somebody made loads of cobbled roads and stuff
10:38<andythenorth>which are all identical apart from texture
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10:39<supermop_>i mean myself or andrew350 can make more sprites
10:39<supermop_>i missed the intention behind groundtypes
10:40<supermop_>is it purely for eyecandy?
10:40<supermop_>surely the easiest way would be to just move the sidewalks to the roadtype
10:40<supermop_>as is, road beats tram on a tile, which might not be perfect but works
10:41<andythenorth>it’s predicated on not consuming labels if all your changing is cobble/brick/asphalt/stone/wood
10:41<andythenorth>you’re *
10:41<andythenorth>it’s a waste of labels, could be done differently
10:41<andythenorth>but that means new spec, new UI
10:41<supermop_>i can drive very different speeds on those surfaces
10:41<supermop_>why do they need to be the same label?
10:42<andythenorth>do you actually set different properties for them?
10:42<andythenorth>if so, it might be we’re staring down a dead end with groundtypes
10:42<supermop_>in unspooled dirt is slower that gravel, which is slower than stone, which is slower than asphalt
10:43<andythenorth>dunno if frosch and I realised that
10:43<supermop_>dirt is cheapest, followed by gravel, followed by asphalt, followed by stone
10:43<supermop_>infrastructure cost is more or less same order
10:43<Wolf01>andythenorth: just put speed limit in groundtype
10:44<andythenorth>Wolf01: at some point that makes groundtype a roadtype :P
10:44<Wolf01>Or define a switch on roadtype with groundtype
10:44<andythenorth>then we’ve resolved it back to ‘same as now'
10:44<andythenorth>supermop_: what about Docklands?
10:44<@Alberth>too overpowered wrt money printing
10:44<supermop_>i mean currently i can lay a 140kmh tram track over a 40 kmh dirt road, and that is weird
10:44<supermop_>but not necessarily wrong
10:44<@Alberth>hmm, you spoke much more :)
10:45<supermop_>andythenorth: docklands has all same costs and speeds for the moment
10:45<supermop_>because i hadn't bothered to think of different ones
10:45<andythenorth>I think it was Docklands that spawned groundtypes idea
10:46<supermop_>docklands is an eycandy hack though
10:46<supermop_>i don't know that it has any gameplay meaning
10:47<supermop_>yes it uses too many lables,
10:48<supermop_>maybe there is a way around that, but not sure id base all of NRT around one grf
10:52<supermop_>Alberth: what is overpowered?
10:53<supermop_>anyway NRT lets us have pretty sprites for roads and trams, which i feel is about 80% functional now
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10:53<supermop_>and gameplay differentiation which i think is about 90%
10:54<supermop_>for pretty sprites, we miss some more control over certain sprites by roadtype, like sidewalks, furniture, and foundations
10:55<supermop_>for gameplay, we miss a more graceful means of upgrading roads, and the means for towns to build more than one type
10:55<@Alberth>airports are overpowered, topic 25 minutes ago
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10:56<Wolf01>supermop_: Both gameplay missing features shouldn't be a problem
10:56<supermop_>correct me if i am wrong, but i feel like you could either ship it without those, or add them in some smaller incremental way without a 'ground type'
10:56<Wolf01>It's just a matter to actually code them
10:56<crem>Are there cablecar patches for openttd?
10:57<Wolf01>Yes, NRT
10:57<supermop_>even if a few means of abuse arise (upgrade a town's roads to fast highway but dont have to pay to maintain it)
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>there used to be a ski-lift grf (non-functional object)
10:57<supermop_>which you can already do by building bus stops over town roads
10:57<andythenorth>Conveyor Belts!!!
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10:58<andythenorth>take a lesson from F :P
10:58<@Alberth>clearly we need a skilift for cargo transport in the mountain
10:58<andythenorth>“pipelines are against the spirit of OpentTTD"
10:58<andythenorth>said devs who now all play F :P
10:58<supermop_>belts, gondolas, etc can be added in NRT, but its not ideal
10:58<andythenorth>that’s actually FUD but eh :)
10:58<@Alberth>all devs play F? :O
10:59<Wolf01>Wait, you don't play it?
10:59<supermop_>Wolf01: can they be added to NRT as is?
10:59<supermop_>rather than reworking NRT?
11:00<Wolf01>If you want something like the existing track-pipelines but without the hassle of having signals, yes, they could be added and maybe work even better
11:00<supermop_>andythenorth: i don't feel the need to have one type for bench, one type for lamps, one type for hot dog stands, on sidewalks
11:00<Wolf01>You can put 2500 vehicle-pump on them and have a continuous flux
11:00<andythenorth>that would be something more akin to objects supermop_
11:01<supermop_>Wolf01: i meant road conversion, not pipelines
11:01<andythenorth>being able to have random road greeble would be nice, similar to stations
11:01<andythenorth>parked cars and crap like that
11:01<supermop_>andythenorth: you can almost do that already
11:01<supermop_>you can randomly have stuff on the road or catenary already
11:02<Wolf01>Oh, yes, conversion could be reworked, maybe it could benefit from some new grf flags, but it's just a matter to know what could be upgraded to what
11:02<supermop_>if you and one more sprite layer for sidewalks, you just randomly place street furniture
11:03<supermop_>i dont need the control to choose which bench goes on what tile
11:03<andythenorth>PLAYERS WILL THOUGH
11:03<supermop_>then let them add 10 types
11:03<andythenorth>how else can they make accurate model railways?
11:03<andythenorth>need is a strong word
11:04<supermop_>i guess i am saying that NRT is pretty close to meeting or exceeding goals already
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11:05<supermop_>can it be shipped?
11:06<Wolf01>Not yet, bugged
11:06<supermop_>ship with bugs
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11:06<Wolf01>And I seem too stupid to fix it
11:07<Wolf01>Actually I'm working on refactoring, 3 hours of work could have been saved by asking a stupid question in channel
11:07<andythenorth>441 FS issues left
11:08<andythenorth>Alberth: feel free to tell me to bugger off, but in principle this is useful
11:08<Wolf01>Good, at 0 we'll release OTTD2?
11:08<andythenorth>pretty much
11:08<andythenorth>probably at about 100 we release OTTD 2
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11:09<Wolf01>New release by only closing tasks, without codechange
11:10<@Alberth>lots of text in that issue :)
11:10<@Alberth>5887 is also nice, newgrf author makes a mess, we can clean it up?
11:12<andythenorth>tbh, random building irritates me in CHIPs
11:12<andythenorth>when I want specific
11:12<andythenorth>and sometimes I just want random
11:13<andythenorth>rock | hard place
11:13<andythenorth>the station spec is such a mess that I wouldn’t touch that change
11:13<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: and the changelog will feature all the rejected patches?
11:13<andythenorth>doubt 5887 is a current goal
11:13<Wolf01>Yeah :D
11:14<andythenorth>Rejected: #FS [bad patch]
11:14<andythenorth>shows the work done
11:15<@Alberth>I only use station tiles in chips, I don't care much for the random cranes :p
11:15<@Alberth>so likely I don't understand this decorative tile business at all
11:18<FLHerne>Alberth: Even with those, it can be annoying if you get the little trucks in 1890 or whatever
11:18<FLHerne>(which happens all the damn time)
11:19<andythenorth>I would refactor chips if station nfo wasn’t so bad
11:19<andythenorth>I would rather have deterministic building with a hotkey or toggle for ‘choose a random one'
11:19<@Alberth>from what quast wrote about stations, it didn't seem very complicated, imho
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11:22<@Alberth>FLHerne: colour of cargo isn't even consistent, trucks are minor compared to that :p
11:23<andythenorth>if I bothered to read station spec, I could probably provide a suggestion :P
11:23<andythenorth>but eh, there are real actual patches in the queue :D
11:23*andythenorth finds making wishlists a lot easier
11:24<@Alberth>openttd 2.0 speculation is much simpler indeed :p
11:25<andythenorth>NRT, templated consists, upgraded scenario editor, reworked landscape gen, done
11:25<andythenorth>awesome 2.0
11:36<@planetmaker>he :)
11:37<@planetmaker>If so, the question would be how much backward compatibility one would want :)
11:37<@planetmaker>Likely such road is the netscape way, though
11:38<Wolf01>Backward compatible gameplay wise or just able to load and upgrade old saves?
11:38<Wolf01>Because the first one is already borked
11:38<Wolf01>The second one might have some holes
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11:39<@planetmaker>Wolf01, it would probably suffice to be able to somewhat continue old games
11:39<@planetmaker>but... with the presence of NewGRFs that probably cannot be done either. Thus incompatible
11:39<Wolf01>Then, we are already doing great, with some edge cases
11:40<Wolf01>I can continue a 2007 game
11:40<Wolf01>Even a 2005 one
11:40<@planetmaker>even older
11:40<@planetmaker>you can continue TTD games
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11:41<Wolf01>The only problem might happen in case of some weird configurations, maybe even trying to load a TTDP game
11:41<andythenorth>no Netscape way
11:41<andythenorth>I have literally sunk a company with “rewrite from scratch”
11:41<andythenorth>nearly went bankrupt
11:42<andythenorth>the correct method is “rebuild the plane whilst flying the plane”
11:42<andythenorth>and I think we’re stuck with backwards compatibility
11:42<eekee>*nod* rewriting is often stupid
11:43<andythenorth>“backwards compatibility” isn’t self defining though
11:43<andythenorth>(picking my pet favourite pony, don’t shoot it)
11:43<andythenorth>if we, e.g. moved signals to NotSignals, with types
11:43<andythenorth>we could delete semaphores from default game
11:44<andythenorth>and migrate all saves to colour light
11:44<andythenorth>it’s not broken
11:44<andythenorth>it’s different :P
11:44<eekee>i'm thinking "i'm sure some people would be furious" :)
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11:47<andythenorth>migrate semaphores to a different signal label
11:47<eekee>that makes sense
11:47<andythenorth>then it can be restored by a newgrf
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11:47<andythenorth>actually, in that case probably just keep the semaphores, but let me replace all signals :P
11:47<andythenorth>even better
11:47<andythenorth>no breakage
11:47<eekee>haha! yeah
11:48<eekee>i'm thoroughly enjoying firs, but i'm thinking the ports must be served by invisible giant airships. is there a patch to make them visible? ;)
11:49<andythenorth>you could write one
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11:50<andythenorth>probably wormholes
11:50<eekee>yeah! XD
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11:50<eekee>actually can grfs make new disasters? i'm thinking of the submarines which aren't really a disaster.
11:50<Wolf01>andythenorth: make an alien beam dropping stuff on ports at random intervals
11:51*andythenorth is busy
11:51<andythenorth>removing <br /> from old html
11:51<andythenorth>212 to go
11:51<eekee>sure no probs, i'm mostly joking
11:53<supermop_>ive spent almost an hour shifting trolley pole around
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11:55<eekee>oh aye
12:01<supermop_>whats this with signals?
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12:42<@peter1138>what's wrong with <br /> ?
12:42<@peter1138>apart from privatisation
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12:45<LordAro>peter1138: ayy.
12:45*andythenorth shouldn’t be using it for layout
12:45<andythenorth>except in poetry
12:46<andythenorth>I’m using it to avoid people whining at me about inline styles for margin
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12:46<andythenorth>just 112 left to replace :P
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12:56<andythenorth>was PBS a mistake? o_O
12:56*andythenorth can’t remember if all the pre-signals crap was actually fun or not
12:57<andythenorth>seemed to involve a lot of thinking, maybe that was good
12:58<Wolf01>I would allow SPAD signals too, just to see some random train crash
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13:09<Wolf01>Would be useful to have specific methods to do this? _switch_mode = (_game_mode == GM_EDITOR) ? SM_LOAD_SCENARIO : SM_LOAD_GAME;
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13:11<Wolf01> I think not, all the checks seem different
13:12<Wolf01>Or better, the result
13:14<@Alberth>looks state-machine-ish
13:15<@Alberth>not sure if it becomes any better then, coding state machines in a programming language isn't much readable
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13:19<LordAro>srs, who's in control of they really need to get rid of that startcom cert
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13:35<Wolf01>Mmmh, I'm tempted to rename the GetX/SetX methods to just X() to emulate properties
13:35<@peter1138>"Nathanael Rebsch"
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13:35<@peter1138>^ dihedral
13:36<@peter1138>^ LordAro
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14:00<frosch123>LordAro: spike is admin
14:00<LordAro>i see
14:00<frosch123>should we go for self-signed certificates?
14:01<LordAro>letsencrypt is fine these days
14:01<frosch123>make the ottd certificate authority?
14:01<LordAro>i think wildcard certs are coming soon as well
14:01*andythenorth uses letsencrypt
14:01<andythenorth>ansible managed
14:01<andythenorth>there are 1 or 2 quirks, but basically sound
14:05*andythenorth stares at bug list, looking for some to invalidate :)
14:08<frosch123>any butterflys or dragonflys?
14:08<andythenorth>is this;a=commit;h=28800476899ce16d6eb718d666ee8db1349d7f7d different to
14:08<andythenorth>default password vs. actual password?
14:08*andythenorth could look in src :P
14:09<frosch123>andythenorth: the client remembers the password
14:10<frosch123>the server does not store it
14:10<andythenorth>isn’t that….correct by design? o_O
14:10<frosch123>so when people need to restart their server/reload the game, all companies have no password
14:10<andythenorth>oh dear :)
14:11<andythenorth>so we have to hash all the paswords? o_O
14:11<frosch123>the lame excuse that often appears on the forums is, that savegames are transfered to clients, so they may not contain passwords
14:11<frosch123>but the truth is that savegames also do not include the ai/gs data
14:11<andythenorth>because transferring the passwords over the network is also really secure? :P
14:11<frosch123>so there is already differentiation between savegame for save and savegame for join
14:12<andythenorth>still valid then? Can’t just close?
14:12<frosch123>the remaining reason would people who achieve their savegames on some hall of fame site :)
14:12<andythenorth>even hashed, if we start sharing around passwords, pretty easy to go password mining
14:12<andythenorth>if anybody could be bothered
14:13<frosch123>it's the usual: if someone would actually spent some real thought on the problem, it could likely be solved
14:13<andythenorth>not a bug
14:13<andythenorth>I’m not trying to close all feature requests :)
14:14<frosch123>oh my... yt is covered with eclipse livestreams
14:15<frosch123>maybe i should stream a fake one
14:15<andythenorth>need planetmaker
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14:17<andythenorth>peter1138: “Or limit ships to just below 80mph?”
14:17<andythenorth>would seem fine to me
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14:20<eekee>how am i going to make my ekranoplan grf if ships are limited to just below 80mph?
14:22<eekee>(only joking :)
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14:24<andythenorth>ha this can die
14:25<andythenorth>absolute crap
14:27<@peter1138>andythenorth, the patch to make ships faster worked, iirc
14:27<andythenorth>want me to test it?
14:27<@peter1138>it was just... pointless :p
14:27<andythenorth>means a docs update :P
14:27<@peter1138>instant stopping was a problem
14:27<@peter1138>that's even worse for ships
14:28<@peter1138>there's plenty of patches for that, mind you
14:30<andythenorth>this patch appears to work
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14:42<Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> the lame excuse that often appears on the forums is, that savegames are transfered to clients, so they may not contain passwords <-- that's actually easy to solve, the password data in the savegame needs to be encrypted with a (server-side) password
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>while at it, also hash and salt the passwords :p
14:43<frosch123>that's already done
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>oh, that's "new" :p
14:43<frosch123>and no, password should just not be part of the savegame, but in some separate file like .openttd/secret.dmp
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, people who load the savegame without that server password will be able to play it, but the password data is discarded
14:44<andythenorth>I wish george would join irc :P
14:44<andythenorth>I dm-ed him about some of his issues
14:44<frosch123>well, people who played on that game know their password, and then they know the server-side encrypted password
14:44<andythenorth> <- this seems like just no
14:45<frosch123>so, they have data on how it is encrypted
14:45<frosch123>so, if you spend work on encryption, do it correctly imho
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: err, if known-plaintext is a problem, you're probably using the wrong encryption method :p
14:47<andythenorth>why _aren’t_ vehicles just built in a virtual depot?
14:47<andythenorth>then we could run all the newgrf callbacks
14:47<andythenorth>for the purchase menu
14:48<frosch123>the idea exists for long :p
14:48<andythenorth>oh wait
14:48<andythenorth>it’s totally unnecessary :P
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: anyway, if you still want to separate it, it should be no problem to make a "filename.sav" and "filenname.secret" file
14:48<andythenorth>complexity for no gain
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: virtual depot is needed for consist stuff
14:49<frosch123>andythenorth: it's actually the solution to all problems with articulated vehicles and refitting
14:49<andythenorth>I’ll leave 6198 open then
14:49<frosch123>but with ottd's "intrusive pools" it's not that easy
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>replace pools with actual modern programming concepts like vectors or something
14:52<frosch123>sure, if you update the compile farm
14:53<andythenorth>can I close this if I fix it in FIRS? o_O
14:54<frosch123>andythenorth: bug in newgrf :)
14:54<frosch123>i doubt ottd will every check for ships being trapped when placing an object
14:55<andythenorth>it’s probably a dubious industry layout
14:57<andythenorth>NFI how I could fix that :)
14:57<andythenorth>oh the Fishing Grounds station report ‘Oil Rig’ for the info tool :)
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15:02<andythenorth>closed that
15:07<andythenorth>ha another one
15:08<milek7>>and no, password should just not be part of the savegame, but in some separate file like .openttd/secret.dmp
15:08<milek7>frosch123: why?
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15:09<milek7>it even doesn't matter if it will be sent to client
15:09<milek7>as long password are salted with server secret salt
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15:13<@Alberth>why give an option if there is no need?
15:13<andythenorth>Alberth: is this something we should fix in eints?
15:14<@Alberth>Also, why does GroupStatistics::UpdateProfits nothing but ClearProfits ?
15:14<frosch123>it's the baseclass of something?
15:15<frosch123>i can't remember
15:16<@Alberth>it zeroes the profits at the end of the year
15:16<@Alberth>so it's not update at all
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15:17<@Alberth>andythenorth: I do something therein eints, you can specify an alternative name for a command in the tables
15:17<@Alberth>not sure what happens there exactly
15:18<@Alberth>note that 6543 doesn't say he just the translator
15:20<andythenorth>not sure what to do with that next
15:22<frosch123>Alberth: i guess VehicleReachedProfitAge does everything
15:22<frosch123>Alberth: so, update does 1. clear all, 2 readd all vehicles
15:22<@Alberth>andythenorth: title says web translator, so just move it to devzone?
15:23<andythenorth>out of sight, out of mind :)
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15:24<andythenorth>oops, eints project tells me all the eints things I haven’t done
15:25<@Alberth>frosch123: functionality got shifted, but the name wasn't changed thus
15:25<frosch123>Alberth: no, it's all correct
15:25<frosch123>it has always been like that, and it's correct imo
15:26<frosch123>the comments are weird though
15:27<@Alberth>oh, ok, my fault
15:28<frosch123>the comments are misleading :)
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15:43<andythenorth>Bug in External Library?
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15:48<Eddi|zuHause>or compile option?
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>in any case, needs reproductive case
15:48<andythenorth>mine has had that issue for ~years
15:48<andythenorth>I bought a new mac maybe 6 years ago, and ottd got a lot slower
15:49<andythenorth>yeah, Snow Leopard -> Yosemite probably
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds completely unrelated?
15:50<andythenorth>no, Apple either changed something in Quartz or it was a change in Intel video drivers or hardware
15:50<andythenorth>is my guess
15:50<andythenorth>total guessing mind
15:50<crem>Is there a recommended set of newgrf? For people who never played anything but vanilla openttd.
15:50<andythenorth>avoid anything tagged andythenorth
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15:58<V453000>while V453000 is suited for beginners only
15:59<@Alberth>crem: depends heavily on what you like to do
15:59<@Alberth>andythenorth: 1st group patch looks ok
15:59<@Alberth>too late to actually try it
16:02<andythenorth>worked for me, if that’s worth anything
16:02<@Alberth>crem: if you want to stay close to what you know, the OpenGFX+ grfs are nice
16:02<@Alberth>have a look at the parameters
16:03<crem>let me check..
16:03<@Alberth>The OpenGfx+Industries does need the OpenGfx+Trains and RVs, or it will not work
16:04<crem>Yes those dependencies are confusing. And it seems there are two versions of each.
16:04<@Alberth>using FIRS and selecting a basic economy is quite new but manageable
16:04<@Alberth>crem: industry sets add new cargoes that the default set doesn't know
16:04<crem>In addition to OpenGfx+?
16:05<@Alberth>any industry newgrf
16:05<@Alberth>so you always need vehicle sets if you want to play with a non-default industry grf
16:06<crem>There are three FIRSes.. FIRS 2, FIRS Industry replacement set, and FIRS Industry replacement set 3
16:07<@Alberth>yep, andy is a busy firs producer
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16:07<@Alberth>newest is likely best :)
16:08<andythenorth>FIRS 3 is fricking awesome
16:08<andythenorth>and nearly finished :P
16:08*andythenorth wonders if finishing it is a current goal
16:09<@Alberth>if you want something different for trains and RVs but quite traditional, try Iron Horse and Road Hog
16:09<andythenorth>I keep going back to NARS 2 also
16:09<@Alberth>if you want to do transport mayhem, use NUTS
16:09*andythenorth loves NARS 2
16:09<andythenorth>when I finally replicate NARS 2 in Iron Horse, I can probably stop doing OpenTTD stuff :)
16:10<crem>wow, at least it started! Milk Production! mooo/ I've never managed to start anything with newgrf before. (didn't know what to pick and picked random stuff).
16:10<@Alberth>andythenorth: justload both nars2 and IH ?
16:10<andythenorth>well yes
16:10<andythenorth>sometimes I do
16:11<@Alberth>nars2 had this changing running costs, doesn't it?
16:11<andythenorth>crem: if it helps…
16:11<andythenorth>I think pikka removed those as bad feature maybe
16:11<andythenorth>not sure
16:12<crem>It surely looks good, will read!
16:12<andythenorth>‘get started’ page is work in progress
16:12<andythenorth>feedback welcome, especially from people who’ve never newgrfed before
16:12<@Alberth>crem: for ships, fish2 is freat
16:13<andythenorth>I would also add AV9 for planes
16:13<andythenorth>maybe a bit much all at once
16:13<andythenorth>but helicopters are useful in FIRS
16:13<@Alberth>neverplay with aircraft:)
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16:14<@Alberth>Although I think I moved that all important steel on one map, by plane
16:14<crem>yeah planes usually make it boring. But actually with trains profit very quickly starts to be unmanageable. As in.. you don't know how to get rid of all that money.
16:15<@Alberth>juststop caring about money, and build what you like
16:15<andythenorth>planes are very handy for the supplies mechanic in FIRS
16:16<crem>Ok, will try. I guess I have enough to start with.
16:16<@Alberth>although a lot of fun is in keeping the landscape intact
16:17<@Alberth>if you tend to flatten all mountains, I would suggest you stop doing that for a few games
16:17<@Alberth>other options are to add lots of water (60%) or so, and do shipping between islands
16:18<crem>Yeah, I did that once. Lots of water, huge map, 1 instance of every industry.
16:19<@Alberth>I usually play 512x512 or 1024x512, quite big enough for a single player
16:19<crem>I usually (almost) don't change landscape, but I guess initially I select it to be not very hilly.
16:20<@Alberth>hilly makes making a route more difficult
16:20<@Alberth>especially if you increase the freight multiplier to 5 or so
16:21<@Alberth>probably too much for non-NUTS sets :)
16:21<andythenorth>436 FS left :P
16:21<andythenorth>10 gone today
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16:25<V453000>interesting, I did some testing on the python multithreading and basically I'm getting 8 times more speed with 16 times more threads ... that's not too bad :)
16:25<V453000>considering all the horrors I heard how python is bad with multithreading
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16:26<_dp_>V453000, are you using threads or processes?
16:27<_dp_>threads are only good for io stuff usually
16:28<V453000>some Pool thing :D
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17:21<andythenorth>such bedtime
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---Logclosed Tue Aug 22 00:00:23 2017