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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-08-29

---Logopened Tue Aug 29 00:00:33 2017
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02:12<LordAro>Rygrass: that means that protected companies (those with a password set, iirc) will also be autocleaned
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03:31<Rygrass>cheers mate
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03:49<dihedral>Hej Hej
03:52<andythenorth>is dihedral :)
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07:46<Wolf01>ISP tested my line "your line can't handle the speed you are connected at"
07:47<Wolf01>That's the main reason about my problems, the central blocks my connection because I'm too fast
07:49<andythenorth>lo Wolf01
07:55<V453000>andythenorth: tropic trees somehow
07:55<V453000>got some ideas
07:55<V453000>but basically same technique
07:56<V453000>cacti will definitely be there
07:56<V453000>generally the theme is overgrown plants
07:56<V453000>rather than giant palms, but some of those too
07:56<V453000>simply put, jungle as fuck
07:56<V453000>haha almost rhymes
07:56<V453000>iz poet now
08:09<V453000>friend told me the noisiness of the ground doesn't really fit with the cartoony style of the trees
08:09<V453000>he might be right
08:09<V453000>fucking asshole
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08:25<FLHerne>I think he's right
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09:05<V453000>idk, is he and how? solve? :D
09:06<@planetmaker>usually with acid, combined sulphuric and nitric acid. No left-overs ;)
09:07<V453000>? :D
09:07<@planetmaker>that solves the problematic person :P
09:07<V453000>well :D
09:07<@planetmaker>(ok, that joke works better in German) :P
09:07<V453000>what does planetmaker think?
09:08<V453000>trees fit with terrain Y/N? :)
09:08<@planetmaker>hm... the terrain is so monochromatic bleak :)
09:09<@planetmaker>looks like a scenery from an end-of-time movie :D
09:10<@planetmaker>but were the grass green... I think it would fit
09:10<@planetmaker>though I can see what your pal means with "too noisy in comparison with the trees". Not sure that matters really. You might try to make the patches on the ground bigger (like half or 1/3 of the frequency)
09:11<@planetmaker>I guess 1/3 of the noise frequency would fit better
09:11<_dp_>or add more noise to the trees?
09:12<V453000>I will be releasing 2 version with different grfid, one with green and one with gray land
09:12<V453000>I am quite confident that the gray is a seriously good concept, it makes everything work with 8bpp palette, and that's something that I find extremely important
09:13<V453000>so far to me 32bpp has a giant issue - people want to either replace everything or nothing
09:13<V453000>I've been using brix with DB set and swedish rails, FIRS and so on
09:13<V453000>and it fits perfectly fine thanks to the grayscale
09:13<V453000>extra zoom isn't what breaks things, full RGB is
09:14<V453000>I'll try to play around with the noise, thanks for your feedback :) one of the plans is to have the trees get more noisy from the bottom with a gradient
09:15<Wolf01>__ln__: holy shit... noooooo
09:15<V453000>but yeah, if you want to use green grass, you will easily be able to just by using a different version ... since I Have parameters for disabling anything you want, you can get multiple different versions of BRIX with different grfIDs, and just combine what you want, green land, grayscale houses or whatever there is eventually
09:17<_dp_>btw it looks a bid weird to me having such bright green trees above snowline
09:19<V453000>well they are already darker since the tops aren't visible due to the snow
09:19<_dp_>and below snowline having some autumn colors may not be a bad idea
09:19<V453000>that's for sure
09:19<V453000>some more oranges will definitely be there along with some lushy greens
09:19<_dp_>pines aren't very bright
09:19<Wolf01>That would mean having seasons too
09:19<V453000>basically that's for grotwh stages
09:20<_dp_>also there is nothing with round canopy that stays green in winter afaik
09:20<V453000>that's fine :P
09:25*_dp_ looking at photos from my winter hikes
09:25<_dp_>if anything pines are black in subarctic :p
09:27<_dp_>actually black trees may look quite good with gray grass
09:28<V453000>the plan isn't really to follow reality 1:1 :)
09:28<_dp_>yeah, I noticed)
09:30<V453000>I'm more trying to play with colour theory and the big picture, overall greens are the code colour of trees ... obviously naturally, but then if I want to apply that generally to all trees, I feel like it's fine to have it even for snowy trees etc, because it's their family code that puts them together
09:32<andythenorth>trees are green
09:32<andythenorth>skies are blue
09:33<_dp_>I get but it just doesn't look like subarctic imo
09:33<_dp_>and I've been to subarctic, I almost live there
09:33<_dp_>it's dark and moody in winter
09:35<_dp_>snow is beautiful in sunshine but trees stay dark
09:37<V453000>your points are good
09:37<V453000>I understand and basically agree
09:38<V453000>just not sure if I want to put it in there, I probably will in some way
09:38<V453000>but some way is very vague :P
09:38<V453000>for example my water is super black, and that's not going to change either :P
09:40<_dp_>black rivers are quite realistic if you ask me :p
09:40<_dp_>unless covered with snow ofc
09:46<_dp_>last time I've seen a river that's more blue than black was somewhere in Turkey I think :)
09:47<milek7>hmm, rivers are green usually :>
09:48<Wolf01>At least the one of my town
09:48<V453000>gg XD
09:48<Wolf01>If you go to Rome, the river Tevere is brown
09:53<blocage>maybe we should list color that river cannot be ?
09:54<_dp_>rivers reflect a lot so they can technically be of pretty much any color
09:55<blocage>_dp_, that's the point, list of color that river cannot be : [] ;)
09:56<_dp_>I'm just saying that in subarctic they typically look very dark, almost black, at least where I live
09:57<Wolf01>They look clear to azure here... what do you put into water?
10:00<blocage>There is any tutorial about Window & widget in openttd ?
10:00<_dp_>idk, mud, rust mb. There are lots of swamps here
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10:00<Alkel_U3>it depends on the chosen economy and thus on the kind of industrial waste that goes into the rivers
10:01<andythenorth>FIRS should adjust river sprites eh
10:01<blocage>Alkel_U3, you mean that in OTTD we should change the color of river based on surounding industry ;) ?
10:02<Alkel_U3>yea, with mixing, too. Like when a river running from near a scrap yard meets output from a papermill :P
10:02<Alkel_U3>blocage: it can't possibly be a bad feature :D
10:02<_dp_>here it's not an industrial waste, just swamp water has brown color like a black tea
10:05<Alkel_U3>oh, and mutated salamanders crawling out of the rivers and terrorizing nearby cities and sinking ships and displeasing Poseidon and...
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10:20<andythenorth>lo Alberth
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11:06<Wolf01>Meh, ISP removed the 4Mb cap I asked to put... now I'm connected at 4.8Mb and unstable connection
11:06<frosch123>V453000: if the noise is too noisy, maybe try some pattern like
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11:10<_dp_>frosch123, that kind of looks like toyland :p
11:11<frosch123>i think that also depends on the size of the pattern
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11:15<V453000>frosch123: :D hm
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12:26<andythenorth>what shall we break next? :)
12:27<andythenorth>Wolf01: how is the NoTrees spec? o_O
12:27<Wolf01>You should write that, I'm not good at specs
12:28<Wolf01>I can help you gather info
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12:32<andythenorth>ok, maybe later :)
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13:37<andythenorth>Wolf01: maybe, instead of NewThings
13:37<andythenorth>we should close some more of the 400 FS
13:37<Wolf01>Yes, it would be nice
13:37<@Alberth>how do we have nested groups in trunk?
13:37<@Alberth>ie how do you make them?
13:38<Wolf01>Drag&drop iirc
13:38<andythenorth>drag and drop
13:38<@Alberth>from "ungroiuped" trains to a new group, ok
13:38<@Alberth>but a sub-group?
13:38<Wolf01>I used them in the past to group by city and then by line for pax trams
13:39<andythenorth>Alberth: do you mean ‘why?’ ? :)
13:39<Wolf01>Drag a group into another
13:39<@Alberth>drag groups, let me try that :)
13:39<@Alberth>andy, I meant "how" :)
13:39<andythenorth>ok :)
13:40<andythenorth>train length indicators in UI :D
13:40<andythenorth>isn’t it
13:40<Wolf01>frosch shipped it ;)
13:41<andythenorth>so should I be joining .dev or no?
13:41<andythenorth>as per
13:41<andythenorth>^ which needs an update anyway
13:42<frosch123>.dev is deserted
13:42<frosch123>also, see topic
13:43<andythenorth>@seen Rubidium
13:43<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: Rubidium was last seen in #openttd 2 weeks, 5 days, 22 hours, and 9 seconds ago: <Rubidium> sure
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13:51<andythenorth>likely this could use a refresh?
13:52<andythenorth>wiki needs a match taking to some of it
13:52<andythenorth>every year, we burn about 50% of our work dev docs at christmas time
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13:53<andythenorth>eh, should wiki pages like this be preserved as history?
13:53*andythenorth thinks burn it all
13:54<frosch123>depends whether you want to link people to already explored stuff
13:54<frosch123>or whether they shall reinvent the wheel
13:54<@Alberth>planetmaker believes we should keep old stuff
13:54<andythenorth>wiki must have a way to show editors/contributors?
13:54<andythenorth>sorted by date + frequency?
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13:54<andythenorth>I’m not sorting all the wiki crap out, but it’s housekeeping for a healthy project
13:55<@Alberth>someone will think it's needed
13:55<andythenorth>$someone always wants to keep stuff
13:55<frosch123>like your emails :p
13:55<@Alberth>maybe start with making the manual up-to-date-ish?
13:55<andythenorth>I delete all my emails after 5 years statutory period
13:55<andythenorth>I regret that about 4 times per year
13:56<andythenorth>the rest of the time...not
13:56<@Alberth>as far as I am concerned, everything old can go
13:57<andythenorth>presumably wiki has an admin role?
13:57<@Alberth>or get updated, if still relevant
13:57*andythenorth would like admin role if so
13:57<frosch123>we have a template for "history pages"
13:57<frosch123> <- like here
13:58<frosch123>pretty sure there is also a template for "out of date"
13:58<andythenorth>oic :)
13:58<andythenorth>we need a librarian or two
13:58<frosch123>just add those and think of them as "closed"
13:58<andythenorth>it’s not me
13:58<andythenorth>but I wouldn’t mind trying to persuade people to do it
13:58<andythenorth>I don’t mind sorting out stupid disputes either :P
13:59<frosch123>there is nothing on the wiki, except kamnet with his newgrf catalogue, xussr and forum photo of the month
13:59<frosch123>i don't think other stuff has seen updates in years
13:59<andythenorth>it’s still the best format for docs though?
13:59<frosch123>what docs :p
14:00<andythenorth>all the how-to-play stuff
14:00<frosch123>the manual is done?
14:00<andythenorth>I still learn stuff there sometimes :P
14:00<frosch123>i considered writing a newgrf howto
14:00<andythenorth>I didn’t know about the FISH port
14:00<frosch123>using all the stereotypes to make people sort themself into a usergroup
14:01*andythenorth never likes wikis for docs
14:01<frosch123>andythenorth: the windows version has this weird logo
14:01<andythenorth>but anyone can edit
14:01<frosch123>it's also why the windows version has 4(?) sprites more
14:01<@Alberth>very few actually do
14:01<andythenorth>sphinx? :P
14:02<@Alberth>after github :p
14:02<andythenorth>docs remain an unsolved problem
14:02<@Alberth>so we can merge things :p
14:02<@Alberth>markdown would perhaps work somewhat
14:02<@Alberth>light-weight enough
14:02<frosch123>i do not see demand for anything more than the wiki provides
14:02<frosch123>most people will watch some random yt guy anyway
14:03<andythenorth>github renders md by default
14:03<@Alberth>we'll just make a separate repo for the documentation
14:03<andythenorth>not a bad idea
14:03<andythenorth>pull requests
14:04<frosch123>it is a bad idea though
14:04<frosch123>manual is written by non-tech people
14:04<andythenorth>it adds bureacracy
14:04<andythenorth>and I have to lookup md syntax every time I use it
14:04<@Alberth>oh, speaking of web-ish things, do you have time/ideas for bananas2 ?
14:04<@Alberth>or rather website(N+1)?
14:04<andythenorth>no / yes
14:04<frosch123>prrety sure there was a feature list for bananas2
14:04<andythenorth>I was thinking about that yesterday Alberth
14:04<andythenorth>what does website do?
14:05<andythenorth>there’s reasons it has to be in a big framework like django?
14:05<frosch123>the reason was single sign on
14:05<@Alberth>let's first decide what it should do
14:05<andythenorth>good idea
14:05<andythenorth>- release announcements? (or on forums?)
14:05<frosch123>now eints uses the same ldap, but you cannot use the same cookie for login
14:05<andythenorth>- download? (or on forums?)
14:06<frosch123>download via main page, since it redirects to mirrors
14:06<frosch123>also, only automated stuff
14:06<frosch123>nothing on forums
14:06<andythenorth>- server lists (never noticed those before)
14:07<andythenorth>oh we have a development page here as well
14:07<frosch123>we link them all them time in this channel
14:07<frosch123>it's the second most popular link in this channel
14:07*andythenorth didn’t know we have a dev page on site
14:07<andythenorth>our footprint is quite broad eh? :)
14:07<@Alberth>it's more a collection of links
14:07<frosch123>whenever someone does not get mp to work, the site is to tell whether the problem is with server or with client
14:07<milek7>maybe oauth2?
14:08<andythenorth>oh lots of email addresses on contact
14:08<andythenorth>in case I want to ask for feature requests
14:08<frosch123>yes, they remain unanswered usually :p
14:09<andythenorth>ok so what’s the minimum it could do?
14:09<andythenorth>‘download now’?
14:10<frosch123>andythenorth: <- a paste from earlier this year
14:10<frosch123>anyway, the trend is to put everything in separate containers
14:10<andythenorth>step 1: fix coop SSL :)
14:10<frosch123>so independent bananas which uses central ldap is prefered
14:11<andythenorth>do we actually need a website?
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14:11<@Alberth>several small sites thus?
14:12<frosch123>Alberth: like eints
14:12*andythenorth should update eints eh
14:12<frosch123>also bananas website independent of the content server, so similar to musa
14:12<frosch123>or ottd client
14:12<andythenorth>do we need a web client for bananas?
14:13<frosch123>andythenorth: not for the user, but for the content creator
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14:14<andythenorth>I long wanted to put a better user client on it
14:14<andythenorth>but I’m not sure
14:14<andythenorth>TMWFTLB probably
14:14<frosch123>it should allow editing the description, renaming stuff, setting compatible versions, setting stuff as "avaialble for new download"
14:15<frosch123>the latter for different ottd versions, not just for the newest
14:15<frosch123>also probably a better method to enter meta data
14:16<frosch123>screenshots are a popular request
14:16<andythenorth>how does a content creator client fit alongside musa?
14:16<frosch123>more useful / predefined tags etc
14:16<andythenorth>two methods for same result = daft?
14:16<frosch123>musa is only for upload
14:16<frosch123>musa cannot edit stuff
14:17<frosch123>but ofc you can also write a better musa client
14:17<frosch123>with some gui
14:17<frosch123>s/better/non-tech person safe/
14:17<andythenorth>easiest gui would be a web app :P
14:17<andythenorth>ha, start musa locally, serve it on localhost :P
14:17<frosch123>musa was only written because http 1.1 upload fails for big files
14:17<andythenorth>that can’t go wrong
14:17<frosch123>actually, is that better in http 2 ?
14:18<frosch123>or do we need some javascript frontend which uploads differently?
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14:18<@Alberth>some form of newgrf classification by topics would be useful
14:18<@Alberth>eg set of keywords, or tags
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>ftp... torrent... :p
14:19<@Alberth>telnet :p
14:19<andythenorth>allegedly HTTP POST has no size limit in the protocol
14:19<andythenorth>it’s a configuration option on the server
14:19<andythenorth>according to Random People On SO
14:19<andythenorth>I didn’t read actual, real specs
14:19<frosch123>Alberth: <- i tried the current tags somewhen
14:20<frosch123>they show how the current gui fails
14:20<andythenorth>tags always fail :)
14:20<frosch123>people use "heightmap" and "2048" as tags
14:20<frosch123>just because there is no proper filter for that
14:20<frosch123>so, imho categories should be predefined and not user defined :p
14:21<frosch123>well, admin-defined i guess
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>isn't that the whole point of tags, to provide filters where the default ones don't fit?
14:21<andythenorth>kamnet manages here
14:22<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: my experience of running apps with community tagging is that it’s….a nice idea in theory
14:22<frosch123>good point, that page only exists because neither bananas nor grfcrawler have that moderator support
14:23<@Alberth>Eddi: You want all "eye-candy" grfs together, eg
14:23*andythenorth always gets bored by the details of docs + librarian issues
14:23<andythenorth>same at work
14:23<@Alberth>not sure that yuo make a classification covering enough
14:23<andythenorth>make a decent environment for people to do creative work - programming, drawing, writing etc
14:24<frosch123>also: a web-gui to compose a newgrf selection via some wizard-interface that prevents to stupidest things (like 2 industry sets),. and some export/import via clipboard into ottd
14:24<andythenorth>bananas is easy: just put all grfs made by andythenorth at top
14:24<andythenorth>and put all V453000 grfs at bottom
14:24<frosch123>also permalinks to those newgrf-lists for sharing
14:24<andythenorth>put a sort-order-toggle button on
14:24<frosch123>@calc 8*64
14:24<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 512
14:25<frosch123>512 hexdigit fingerprint?
14:26<frosch123>Alberth: in summary, we need a supersed of current bananas, musa, grfcrawler and wiki-newgrf-site
14:26<frosch123>(note that both bananas website and musa both have features which the other one does not have)
14:27<frosch123>like only musa support multiple authors and dependencies with versions
14:27<frosch123>while only website allows editing existing stuff
14:28<andythenorth>I closed
14:28<andythenorth>should I reopen? :)
14:29<frosch123>do you have a fidget spinner or fidget cube?
14:29<@Alberth>nah, you want a demo image
14:29<@Alberth>or a screenshot-ish something
14:29<@Alberth>preview of heightmap
14:30<Wolf01>andythenort: what do you think?
14:30<@Alberth>I don't care about preview of the same helicopter in all 8 directions :)
14:30<frosch123>Alberth: preview of license :)
14:30<andythenorth>frosch123: too many fidget spinners here already :P
14:30<andythenorth>Wolf01: I think it’s interesting to rethink how that works
14:30<andythenorth>the specific layout…dunno
14:30<@Alberth>preview of readme :)
14:31<@Alberth>Wolf01: spiffy!
14:31<andythenorth>but it makes a more direct connection Wolf01
14:31<andythenorth>that’s important
14:31<Wolf01>The current UI is too much verbose, I would like more graphics
14:32<andythenorth>OS X has a totally pointless way to resize disk volumes, based on dragging rectangles
14:32<frosch123>map preview with 10 unlabeled sliders?
14:32<andythenorth>it’s less accurate than typing numbers in, but more fun
14:32<Wolf01>Almost all the graphic partition tools have that
14:32<@Alberth>frosch123: do you have "palapeli" ? very interesting way to do a preview
14:33<@Alberth>it zooms at the position of the cursor
14:33<frosch123>google gives me toddler puzzles
14:34<Wolf01>I played that one, once
14:34<@Alberth>it's an electronic puzzle solver
14:34<andythenorth>something about openttd websites…I just can’t get excited about reworking them :P
14:34<@Alberth>or puzzle table, rather
14:35<frosch123>can they handle 5000 pieces and more?
14:35<frosch123>might solve the space issues of my sister
14:35<@Alberth>don't know, never tried more than 450 or so
14:35<Wolf01>If it works up to 15k pieces it's the right one for me
14:36<frosch123>she refuses to do puzzles less than 5000 :)
14:36<@Alberth>and rigtlhy so, or you'd be done too quickly :p
14:36<frosch123>6000 is small, 10k is normal, 15k is big
14:36<@Alberth>I usually stick to up to 1K, long enough for me
14:37<@Alberth>but if you do it every day, I can see you want something bigger
14:37<frosch123>well, 10k takes about 8 months or so
14:38<frosch123>i guess some fun comes from the logistics :)
14:39<@Alberth>and searching for the right piece
14:40<frosch123>oh, it's a kde game, i thought it was a webapp
14:40<Wolf01>Meh, Travis CI trying to get me to use it... the only project I wanted to apply CI at is not compatible with Travis...
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14:41<andythenorth>website stuff is probably too close to my actual work most days :P
14:42<andythenorth>…how do we deploy our web apps?
14:42<andythenorth>we have a large footprint, how are they pushed to production?
14:42<Wolf01>Direct edit on production
14:42<Wolf01>I was about to kill one of my bosses last time he did that
14:43<andythenorth>we have a CMS with direct edits in production, but that’s different
14:43<frosch123>how do you rotate pieces in palapeli?
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14:44<frosch123>hmm, seems like all tiles are already oriented correctly
14:45<frosch123>doesn't that spoil 3/4 of the problem?
14:45<frosch123>or 1/2
14:46<@Alberth>you can configure that
14:46<andythenorth>eh, reasons I don’t want to touch openttd web stuff:
14:46<Wolf01>4/5, on real ones you have to flip them top-bottom too
14:46<andythenorth>1. having to get the VM to do any work on it
14:46<@Alberth>vertical lines in the train depot ask to add a line at the far left too, doesn't it?
14:46<andythenorth>2. no reproducible build afaik
14:46<andythenorth>3. no documented route to production
14:46<andythenorth>4. too much stuff imho
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>strange, i closed my computer case, and the computer shut off...
14:48<@Alberth>you found the hidden power button!
14:48<@Alberth>andy isn't it just rows of data in a data base?
14:49<@Alberth>maybe I am over-simplifying things
14:50<andythenorth>I think that’s a valid way to model it
14:50<andythenorth>but still…which database
14:50<andythenorth>how do I get the data for development?
14:50<frosch123>Alberth: i left it out because there is also usually none on the right
14:50<andythenorth>how do I buildout the right db locally?
14:50<andythenorth>how do I test in dev/staging?
14:50<frosch123>i tried, but it looked weird
14:50<andythenorth>how do I push to production?
14:51<@Alberth>I'd just pick sqlite or so, then build something sort of proto
14:51<@Alberth>we may need som e path from there though, at some point we'll have to use/configure "real" systems
14:51<frosch123>andythenorth: you do have the bananas vm :)
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14:51<andythenorth>I do
14:53<@Alberth>but you don't need that all immediately
14:55<frosch123>this version of palapeli does not seem to support tile rotation
14:56<frosch123>i consider this lack more than weird
14:56<frosch123>are you sure that game was not written by some ai or alien
14:56<frosch123>i can't imagine someone having done a physical puzzle to leave that out
14:57<@Alberth>quite :)
14:57<@Alberth>and with opengl, it's quite trivial to add
14:57<frosch123>also i observed that children at age 2 can easily find the right piece, but have a hard time figureing out the rotation
14:58<@Alberth>I find it quite convenient without rotation :p
14:59<@Alberth>I have that too with left/right, especially when you look at the map while moving south :)
14:59<andythenorth>so what’s broken about OpenTTD web stuff?
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15:00<andythenorth>other than list of bananas features from frosch123
15:00<@Alberth>old, aged, mostly
15:01<frosch123>andythenorth: bananas is the most custom thing we have
15:01<frosch123>everything else is kind of standard which you can also get elsewhere
15:02<andythenorth>can we just move it all to commodity services?
15:03<@Alberth>what I don't get with the first patch in 6053, why isn't the engine count updated recursively?
15:03<@Alberth>yet it works
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15:06<@Alberth>uint GetGroupNumEngines(CompanyID company, GroupID id_g, EngineID id_e) :O it's computed
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15:08*andythenorth wonders about commodity bananas :P
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15:09<andythenorth>“open source DLC server” got me nothing useful
15:10<@Alberth>apache http server :p
15:12<andythenorth>reading json from disk
15:12<andythenorth>job done
15:12<andythenorth>jquery onload() puts the json in the DOM
15:13<andythenorth>or we could build something nice, around established libraries, with a continuous deployment pipeline
15:17<@Alberth>something simple at least would be useful for prototyping
15:18<andythenorth>these days I tend to disagree
15:18*andythenorth has spent 7 years sanitising a web development environment
15:19<andythenorth>it’s preferable, on balance, to work backwards from ‘how will we deploy this'
15:19<andythenorth>and start with tools that can deploy ‘hello world’
15:19<andythenorth>the prototype *always* becomes production
15:19<Wolf01>andythenorth: as you mentioned jquery, how do I cycle the children nodes? I think I'm a special kind of stupid as I was used to do it daily and now I don't remember even how to make a plugin
15:20<andythenorth>Wolf01: I have NFI, I only use jquery under protest
15:21<andythenorth>Alberth: I tend to prototype with static html, or a chameleon compile from ‘fake’ python objects
15:22<andythenorth>database stuff tends to be the least important aspect of small web apps
15:22<andythenorth>and it’s common now to use an ORM
15:23<andythenorth>so prototyping with an actual db is a bit overkill
15:23<andythenorth>my opinion is not universally supported :P
15:24<andythenorth>in my world, SQLAlchemy won
15:24<andythenorth>backed by postgres, usually
15:24<andythenorth>one selling point of an ORM is that it can be swapped
15:25<andythenorth>it / the db /s
15:25<andythenorth>so can start with sqlite, and migrate / refactor to postgres etc later
15:27*andythenorth now lost in ORM reviews :P
15:29<_dp_>why not just start with postgres?
15:30*andythenorth doesn’t know
15:30<andythenorth>people like sqlite?
15:31<Wolf01>Why not start with a proper software structure which allows to swap components without changing the code?
15:31<andythenorth>like an ORM o_O
15:31<Wolf01>Like... do it with symfony
15:32<_dp_>isn't symfony php?
15:32<andythenorth>that is the downside yes
15:32<blocage>I like to be away from web programming
15:32<andythenorth>web programming is
15:33<andythenorth>unlike OpenTTD :P
15:33<Wolf01>It might still be a shitty language, but developers reduced fragmentation and enhanced the sharing of pre-existing code
15:34<andythenorth>actually I am +1 to moving OpenTTD web platform to PHP
15:34<andythenorth>then I won’t feel any guilt about not working on it
15:34<Wolf01>So you only need to make customizations and all the core is well mantained, secure and compatible with every other project
15:35<frosch123>hmm, so what to use for a puzzle?
15:35<frosch123>ottd screenshot or ottd sourcecode?
15:36<Wolf01>Sorting out ottd sourcecode puzzle might help on closing FS tasks
15:37<blocage>there is a web openttd ?
15:38<@Alberth>frosch123: website with wallpapers?
15:38<frosch123>yes, someone crosscompiled it via llvm to javascript
15:38<blocage>frosch123, funny
15:38<frosch123> or something
15:38<@Alberth>blocage: it's true
15:39<frosch123>whenever people port sdl1 to something, they port ottd next
15:39<blocage>Alberth, still funny :)
15:39<@Alberth>it is indeed
15:39<_dp_>as the only game that still uses it? :p
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15:40<@Alberth>as one of the few games that didn't switch to opengl stuff :p
15:41<andythenorth>so what does Bananas actually do?
15:41<andythenorth>it was described to me as ‘horrible’ more or less
15:41<andythenorth>and phenomenally complicated
15:41<andythenorth>which is…unappealing
15:42<@Alberth>probably dependency stuff between assets
15:42<@Alberth>and messing with version numbering :p
15:44<andythenorth>this is how all idiots fall on their face...
15:44<andythenorth>…but it doesn’t seem very complicated
15:44<andythenorth>there should be a tree of assets
15:44<andythenorth>we need to serve them up when requested
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15:45<andythenorth>_probably_ it can just key on the grfid, without any need for a graph or anything silly
15:45<andythenorth>where is the code? :P
15:46<@Alberth>no idea
15:46<_dp_>grfid+version at least
15:46<@Alberth>hashtag, probably :)
15:46<andythenorth>version is what you need a tree for
15:46<andythenorth>each tree is rooted on a grfid
15:46*andythenorth uses big compsci words :P
15:46<_3298><Alberth> uint GetGroupNumEngines( -snip- ) :O it's computed <-- it is, except there's one place (in autoreplace) where that's not used. fix is in FX#5978 with a few other tiny autoreplace-related things
15:47<andythenorth>each leaf on the tree probably corresponds to some combination of savegame compatibility / other stuff
15:47<@Alberth>sorry _3298, but I am tired, leaving for bed soon
15:48*andythenorth same
15:48<@Alberth>but post in the issue, so I can read it later
15:48<andythenorth>tiring Monday :P
15:48<_3298>okay, will answer in an FS comment then
15:48<andythenorth>Tuesday-is-Monday in UK this week :P
15:48<@Alberth>hmm, you should try to sleep every 24 hours, you know? :p
15:49<_3298>just thought i'd address that thing i saw while reading the logs as usual
15:49<@Alberth>ah, some day off :)
15:49<@Alberth>_3298: yeah, it's good that you note
15:49<@Alberth>I just fail to keep that in memory at this time :p
15:52<andythenorth>frosch123: so how do I put point my OpenTTD at o_O
15:52<andythenorth>-put :P
15:56<frosch123>there is a patch in the vm
15:56<_3298>just one question: what do you mean when you say "what doesn't get changed is current profit"? 'cause in GroupStatistics there's only profit_last_year
15:57<_3298>if you mean the one displayed in the group info panel, that's calculated on the fly (together with occupancy), i.e. nothing i need to touch
15:57<andythenorth>frosch123: it was a straw man question, but you actually patched that far?
15:58<frosch123>i patched everything except the master server
15:58<frosch123>the master server is mysql magic which cannot be directly ported to postgres
15:59<frosch123>like half of it is coded in sql functions with mysql syntax
16:01<frosch123>now idea who is responsible for that :p
16:01<frosch123>possibly there is also cobol from 1960 in there
16:03<andythenorth>you’re not selling me on touching it :(
16:03<andythenorth>can we persuade TB to reimplement it all from scratch? o_O
16:04<andythenorth>he likes that kind of thing
16:04<@Alberth>_3298: the point is, you didn't touch it and it works. So why did the things you did touch not work?
16:05<@Alberth>and those things that did work, do they use the same mechanism?
16:05<@Alberth>engine counts doesn't seem to do that at least
16:06<@Alberth>if at all possible, I would prefer a single system for everything, as it makes changing and updating code simpler in the future
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16:08<@Alberth>having different mechanisms to do the same things for different variables is confusing in all sorts of ways
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16:09<Wolf01>So the connection seem stable with just 6db SNR...
16:27<andythenorth>frosch123: ok, later in the week I try and motivate self to look at bananas :)
16:28<frosch123>well, it would already be good if someone wrote something down
16:28<frosch123>instead of restarting the discussion from scratch every 6 months
16:29<andythenorth>we have the dev docs in wiki?
16:29<andythenorth>or do you mean a spec for improvement?
16:29<frosch123>i guess a list of what is bad, what is good, and what is missing
16:30<andythenorth>roadmap? :P
16:30<frosch123>and after that some rough layout
16:30<frosch123>note: "i do not understand the old thing, let's rewrite it" is no solution
16:31<andythenorth>that’s one reason I don’t want to touch any web stuff :P
16:31<frosch123>every beginner seems to default to "let's rewrite it"
16:31<andythenorth>it’s a bad argument to say “I have been doing this for x years”
16:31<andythenorth>I have been doing web dev for close to 20 years
16:32<andythenorth>and the problem is not usually writing new code
16:32<andythenorth>the problem is usually deploying it to production, stably, repeatably
16:32<frosch123>my apprentices always tend to ask "can we rewrite this" when they do not understand this
16:32<andythenorth>it’s like codeless code eh? :)
16:33<frosch123>while the higher-level understanding is actually a pre-requisite for rewriting
16:33<andythenorth>^ we literally did that and burnt a whole company
16:33<frosch123>well, it's not even that type of rewrite
16:33<andythenorth>despite 3 or 4 people had probably read that article and similar
16:34<frosch123>it's more like: i need to change the caption of this label, but i do not know how the label is set in this source, can i rewrite the whole business logic?
16:35<andythenorth>there is usually framework-de-jour which can be proposed as a solution also
16:35<andythenorth>“this is hard, we need to switch to x"
16:35<frosch123>it's like "i do not understand pyramid, can i rewrite firs with php?"
16:37<andythenorth>how do you deploy upgrades to bananas?
16:37<andythenorth>I have one patch in production, I think r*bidium did it
16:37<andythenorth>it seemed painful
16:37<frosch123>svn up; /etc/init.d/apache restart ?
16:37<frosch123>no idea, only guessing :)
16:38<frosch123>i think the problem was that the web container cannot see the svn container or something
16:38<andythenorth>dangerous to test live eh? :)
16:39<frosch123>that was the idea for the vm
16:40<frosch123>i also tested everything eints related in a vm
16:40<frosch123>even had a ldap setup for that
16:40<frosch123>and that was a pita
16:42<frosch123>albert always tested locally
16:42<frosch123>but i consider a vm actually easier
16:42<frosch123>you have the real environment
16:42<frosch123>and with ssh + sshfs, working on it is the same as locally
16:43<andythenorth>I never worked on vms
16:43<andythenorth>often proposed, never implemented
16:43<andythenorth>also docker proposed often
16:43<andythenorth>and vagrant
16:43<frosch123>i am learning docker currently
16:43<frosch123>since tb gave me those scripts
16:44<andythenorth>docker is moderately more interesting to me
16:44<andythenorth>it’s hard to be interested in the web openttd
16:44<andythenorth>seems like nothing new to learn, and a half-assed environment to fight against :)
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16:45<andythenorth>usually I learn a lot from openttd, take it back to work context
16:45<frosch123>anyway, i have 60gib of vm images on my disk
16:45<andythenorth>I might need to d/l them again, I had to migrate laptops
16:45<frosch123>i always use vm to test stuff instead of messing up the host system :)
16:46<frosch123>docker would take less space
16:47<frosch123>but is restricted to same kernel
16:47<frosch123>which is find for me, but maybe not for you
16:47<frosch123>i.e. no linux docker on osx
16:47<frosch123>no win docker on linux
16:47<andythenorth>run docker in virtualbox in a VM :P
16:48<andythenorth>for really sucky performance, and extra networking hassle
16:48<frosch123>i am doing that
16:48<frosch123>i do not install docker on my main machine just for playing
16:48<frosch123>i have docker in a vm
16:48<andythenorth>docker seems like FreeBSD jails
16:48<frosch123>and yes, to run win coker on linux you need a windows vm
16:48<andythenorth>I never looked further into docker, except for reading some satire about naive JS developers who think it provides container security
16:49<frosch123>docker is chroot with the chroot-contents versioned in git or something
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16:49<frosch123>like when building the container, every step is stored in some repository
16:49-!-Wolf03 is now known as Wolf01
16:49<Wolf01>Yeah, disconnected
16:49<andythenorth>so it’s repeatable
16:49<frosch123>so you can replace some change in the middle and it can rebuild the rest from some intermediate state
16:50<frosch123>like as if your whole vm data is stored in a vcs
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16:50<frosch123>you install some new thingie, and rollback in the vcs
16:50<frosch123>or you rebase stuff etc :p
16:51<frosch123>anyway, that's my impression after a few hours looing into it
16:51<frosch123>may be totally off :p
16:51<andythenorth>how do we manage production machines? is it puppet or ansible or something?
16:51<andythenorth>is that a TB black art?
16:51<frosch123>eints is setup with ansible
16:51<frosch123>the rest is setup with whatever was hip at the time
16:52<frosch123>like the masterserver is from a php/mysql/perl age
16:53<frosch123>i believe eints is the only thing setup via ansible
16:53<frosch123>the new compile farm is supposed to use docker
16:53<frosch123>the old one does not
16:53<frosch123>i believe the old one has a dozen linux vms, all manually setup
16:54<andythenorth>we adopted ansible at work, and things got better
16:54<andythenorth>2 years ago
16:54<andythenorth>we also built a continuous deployment tool of our own
16:54<frosch123>no idea, i never used it, i only hear admins talking about it
16:55<andythenorth>same, although I read the docs when we adopted it, kind of my job :P
16:55<frosch123>i then match what admins at work talk abuot with what tb or rb ramble about
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16:55<frosch123>and then derive how state-of-the-art the stuff at work may be
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16:58<andythenorth>continuous deployment is, simplifying, a scheduled cron job that looks for new tags, and upgrades the app if it finds one
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>so, you mean autoupdate
16:59<andythenorth>ours can distinguish RC tags for staging from production tags for live
16:59<andythenorth>it has to know how to manaage supervisord to stop, restart processes in right order
16:59<andythenorth>and how to run any upgrade steps for databases etc
17:00<frosch123>i hope you are not suggesting automatic deployment for the ottd website, so we are really fast when there is a change very few years :p
17:00<andythenorth>it also has rules to not make upgrades in certain time windows, e.g .weekends
17:00<andythenorth>website could be done with static html
17:00<andythenorth>just cut out any framework crap :P
17:01<andythenorth>continuous deployment encourages small, frequent releases by removing pain of going to production :)
17:01<LordAro>ansible is lovely
17:01<frosch123>says the firs author :p
17:01<LordAro>*once* you get it setup
17:01<LordAro>takes a bit of time to get to that point
17:01<andythenorth>FIRS nearly has continuous deploy :)
17:01<andythenorth>if I could teach bundles about musa :P
17:01<frosch123>i was refering to static html and frameworks :)
17:02<andythenorth>no framework in FIRS :)
17:02<frosch123>we have multiple newgrf and gs with "make bananas"
17:02<frosch123>i am sure you can also python-generate some of it
17:02<andythenorth>we do don’t we
17:03<andythenorth>I could even automate the forum post, if I gave it my creds :P
17:03<andythenorth>might not do that
17:03<frosch123>LordAro: i guessed the correct power of two to setup the harddisk in my docker vm
17:03<frosch123>i am proud of that :p
17:03<frosch123>set hdd to 16gib, 11 were used
17:04<frosch123>andythenorth: all the "make bananas" require interactive username and password :)
17:04<LordAro>docker is not lightweight
17:04<LordAro>might be interesting to look into lxc/lxd containers
17:04<LordAro>they're only pure linux though
17:04<frosch123>LordAro: well, i just ran tb's stuff unmodified, so it setup 6 debian and 8 ubuntus or something
17:05*andythenorth must to bed
17:05<LordAro>ah, right
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17:05<LordAro>probably not so bad
17:06<frosch123>i could have commented them out, if i cared :)
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>i found a bunch of old computers at work, which might be athlon 64 (single or dual core)
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>think i could do anything useful with those?
17:09<LordAro>i very much doubt it
17:09<frosch123>depend on their case
17:09<frosch123>maybe you can sit on them
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>questionable :p
17:11<frosch123>also metal stuff is good for emp protection
17:11<frosch123>you know, your neighbors with those parabolic antennas
17:11<frosch123>you never know when they only listen, or when they shoot
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17:16<@planetmaker>frosch123, andy: we considered once to actually implement a auto-deployment / upload to bananas on devzone
17:16<@planetmaker>But decided against that...
17:16<@planetmaker>for whatever reason. Probably "people would want to check their upload"
17:17<@planetmaker>the idea was that people allow via musa a devzone account to update their stuff as well
17:18<@planetmaker>it likely is easy to setup... if there's a market and use for that... not sure
17:19<@planetmaker>I guess it would need more automatic project generation / setup for that to be a thing
17:19<@planetmaker>or did move things / repos already to github anyway?
17:20<frosch123>andy and xuusr are the only active projects :)
17:20<frosch123>grfauthors are not tech-safe, so are unlikely to move to github
17:23<frosch123>it's more likely that no-vcs becomes more popular with them
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17:27<@planetmaker>yeah, I guess so...
17:27<@planetmaker>it always was and probably always will
17:28<@planetmaker>until there's a complete web-frontend to making / building NewGRFs where they can just upload their graphics files, edit some text file and have the system generate the grf from taht
17:28<@planetmaker>that might make them use it - without noticing
17:31<frosch123>though andy transitioned to fs-moderator instead of working on grf :p
17:36<LordAro>frosch123: help i'm looking at what's been deprecated and removed from django over the last 7 years
17:37<frosch123>do you have the vm?
17:37<LordAro>just looking
17:37<frosch123>it updated it to django as of 2011/12 at least
17:37<LordAro>for now :)
17:39<frosch123>in other words, wrt. django the vm is newer than the life site
17:39<LordAro>probably needs large amounts of rewriting regardless
17:39<frosch123>well, tbh i would focus on bananas
17:40<frosch123>it does not need to be django
17:40<frosch123>it can be whatever, like eints
17:40<frosch123>we only use django for the news items i guess :p
17:41<LordAro>ooh, python with tabs
17:42<frosch123>tabs are for smart people :p
17:42<LordAro>usually i agree
17:42<LordAro>but not with python
17:42<frosch123>python punished people who do not know whitespace :)
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17:54<Wolf01>Should I try docker?
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23:59<gentz>Uhhhh... so I'm making a patch which makes the convert/upgrade rails button also upgrade trains if there in a depo
23:59<gentz>cause electric -> monorail is super painfull
---Logclosed Wed Aug 30 00:00:06 2017