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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-08-30

---Logopened Wed Aug 30 00:00:06 2017
---Daychanged Wed Aug 30 2017
00:00<gentz>Is there anyone who I should consult on this/ask permission from before I start?
01:33<LordAro>gentz: permission? no one. that's open source for you :p
01:34<LordAro>however, if you're actually planning on getting it included in the game in the future, that's a bit more tricky
01:34<gentz>Yes thats what I mean
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01:40<LordAro>i'm not aware of any existing patch that does this, but there are a few newgrfs that attempt to solve the same issue (universal railtypes, notably)
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02:28<Flygon>So you specify what train is upgraded to which when upgrading the track?
02:28<Flygon>ie. to account for NewGRF sets, rather than the base-set.
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02:33<Deactivated>Hi guys'
02:34<Deactivated>#join ttdreddit
02:35<Deactivated>oops sorry
02:35<Deactivated>trying to guess the channel for the server ircs
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04:31<Alkel_U3>GUIwise, specifying the replacement scheme could be done from the autoreplace window. It won't be carried out when the new train is incompatible with the depot's railtype but it could be accounted for when performing the depot upgrade
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05:50<Wolf01>Strange, it took me more time to have the breakfast (a coffee) than going to bank
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06:39<@planetmaker>LordAro, can you check whether paste.o.o works for you now w/o cert issues?
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06:55<LordAro>planetmaker: works \o/
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07:14<Wolf01>Works for me too
07:45<LordAro>thanks planetmaker :)
07:54<andythenorth>no cert issues for me now either :)
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09:48<andythenorth>isn’t it
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10:06<Wolf01>Iz will of live?
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10:25<andythenorth>@summon frosch123
10:25<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: out of chalk
10:25<andythenorth>@get chalk
10:25<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: Error: 'chalk' is not a valid topic number.
10:25<andythenorth>@buy chalk
10:25<andythenorth>@find chalk
10:25<andythenorth>@pickup chalk
10:26<andythenorth>@go north
10:40<@Alberth>very tiring hypy
10:41<andythenorth>Wolf01: iz will
10:41<andythenorth>such html
10:42<@Alberth>more firs, I see
10:42<andythenorth>and so on
10:42<andythenorth>Norwegian FIRS
10:42<andythenorth>Leif should fork it :)
10:42<Wolf01>andythenorth: send me some will?
10:42<andythenorth>Wolf01: is it not for cheap on ebay?
10:43<Wolf01>Seem it's against ebay tos to sell that
10:47<Wolf01>I can exchange some will with a bag full of air bags
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10:55<LordAro>andythenorth: that link iz excellent
10:56<andythenorth>it was linked back from the JS version someone posted here a month or so ago
10:57<LordAro>yeah, i thought it was reminiscent
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12:12<andythenorth>“waving or drowning?"
12:13<LordAro>why not both?
12:18<andythenorth>“waving whilst drowning"
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12:37<andythenorth>ticket wars
12:42<frosch123>andythenorth: <- does that work?
12:45<Wolf01>Does not have http(s):// in front, so it's not clickable :P
12:45<frosch123>do you have osx?
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12:49<Wolf01>You asked if that works, as a link it doesn't (needs to be copied and pasted in browser), I can't speak about the content
12:52<frosch123>don't turn into eddi
12:52<Wolf01>I was bored, sorry
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12:58<frosch123>andythenorth: planetmaker: actually, do you still have 32bit osx systems?
12:59<andythenorth>frosch123: not sure how to check but I doubt it
12:59<andythenorth>iirc, Apple have dropped 32 bit apps
13:00<andythenorth>or have announced they are
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13:01<andythenorth>seems mine is 64 bit
13:02<frosch123>osx 10.6 is the last 32bit one or something
13:03<andythenorth>frosch123: binary you linked w.f.m
13:03*andythenorth would be more ruthless about dropping old OS X version support
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13:04<frosch123>TrueBrain: TrueBrain-Bot: so, what actualy needs doing then? the docker files you linked just work (tm)
13:06<@planetmaker>frosch123, I do still have the old laptop. And it might even boot into OSXX 10.6 or whatever it has. I haven't started it in ages
13:06<@planetmaker>I think that's a 64 bit system, though
13:07<frosch123>so, no point in creating a 32bit binary for testing?
13:07<@planetmaker>it can build and run 32bit and 64 bit binaries
13:07<andythenorth>I have a 32 bit mac in my loft
13:07<andythenorth>but no
13:07<@planetmaker>usually that's combined to a universal one.
13:07<LordAro>might be worth asking on the forums?
13:07<LordAro>you never know
13:08<@planetmaker>but... I wouldn't think anyone with a straight mind would still play OpenTTD on a 32bit mac system
13:08<andythenorth>we have open FS about compiling on 10.4
13:08<@planetmaker>however people build it for a raspberry pie and simiolar
13:08<andythenorth>probably 32 bit PowerPC
13:08<andythenorth>you buy the fruit logo, you get aggressive deprecation
13:09<andythenorth>other brands of computer are available
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13:11<andythenorth>I would reject
13:11<andythenorth>I would close this as no longer relevant
13:12<andythenorth>I would also reject
13:12<andythenorth>I’ve only left them open in case I’m missing something
13:13<andythenorth>defining official support policies…eh I’m not authorised for that :)
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27903 trunk/src/lang/vietnamese.txt (2017-08-30 19:45:39 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>vietnamese: 37 changes by myquartz
13:46<Wolf01>Friend (yes, that one) asked for "openttd:" protocol to connect to server links clicked in browser/email/wtf
13:46<Wolf01>BBL again
13:47<Wolf01>BTW I told him to stop harassing me with stupid things and just use the ingame server browser
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14:13<andythenorth>quintuple rainbow over my house
14:14<frosch123>not bad
14:14<andythenorth>shall I close those OS X tickets then? o_O
14:15<andythenorth>we don’t have a maintainer to comment, and the BDFL is absent :P
14:15<frosch123>most weird thing i ever saw was when it rained so heavily while sun-shining that the raindrops smashing onto the street created a ground fog with rainbows in them
14:15<frosch123>like, usually rainbows are far away, but there it were only like 10m
14:16<frosch123>andythenorth: how long does it last if you only close one per day?
14:16<andythenorth>~14 months?
14:16<frosch123>i meant the osx ones :p
14:16<andythenorth>ach, probably a week :P
14:17<andythenorth>some are stupid, impossible to repro
14:25<andythenorth>random segfault crap :)
14:25<andythenorth>‘it runs for a while'
14:26<andythenorth>just a crashlog, on a 4 year old Apple OS that I don’t have
14:27<andythenorth>with no savegame no repro steps
14:31<andythenorth>is there a policy on crash reports?
14:37<frosch123>the other platforms give a backtrace in the crash.log
14:37<frosch123>noone seem to have implemented that for osx
14:40<andythenorth>it’s probably not something I’d be able to learn quickly :P
14:41<frosch123>it should be similar to the linux one
14:41<frosch123>though maybe it needs clang specific code
14:41<frosch123>so, maybe also something for LordAro
14:41<andythenorth>should I put a mac on SSH somewhere? :P
14:42<andythenorth>I do actually have spare macs, and a moderately stable cable connection
14:43<frosch123>LordAro: does clang also link with glibc?
14:43<frosch123>i.e. does src/os/unix/crashlog_unix.cpp become active as well?
14:43<frosch123>it has implementations for glibc and solaris (wtf)
14:43<LordAro>good question
14:43<LordAro>it uses gcc's stdlib by defauly
14:44<frosch123>otoh, do i recall some c++11 stuff for backtraces?
14:44<andythenorth>$49 / month to rent a crap mac mini in a datacentre :P
14:47*andythenorth too mean
14:48<frosch123>so, there is a crashlog_osx.cpp, and it contains code for stacktraces
14:48<frosch123>does it not work?
14:49<frosch123>andythenorth: if you kill your openttd with "killall -6 openttd"
14:49<frosch123>does the crash.log contain a stacktrace?
14:51*andythenorth testing
14:52<andythenorth>time is UTC? :o
14:52*andythenorth hasn’t figured the offset, but it’s off by one hour compared to BST
14:53<frosch123>ok, so it contains some stacktrace
14:53<frosch123>can't tell whether it is short because it was idling
14:55<andythenorth>want another?
14:56<frosch123>can you make a real crash, like reloading bad newgrf :p
14:56<frosch123>you may have experience with that :)
14:58<andythenorth>I crash it a lot on changed strings :P
14:58<andythenorth>but that was killall
14:59<blocage>there is no offscreen drawing ?
14:59<frosch123>well, that crashlog code has been there since at least 2009
15:00<frosch123>so, no idea why some tasks have none
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15:04<andythenorth>maybe the crashlog code crashed :P
15:05<andythenorth>is it fair game to close crash reports without full information?
15:05<andythenorth>imo, crash reports tend towards being useful in aggregate, not individual cases :P
15:05<frosch123>there is a close reason "not enough information"
15:11<andythenorth>so there used to be an automated crash reporter? o_O
15:11<frosch123>i read about that, but never saw it
15:11<frosch123>must be more than 10 years ago :)
15:13<andythenorth>aggregate, data-mine, plot on a chart :P
15:13<andythenorth>I have NFI how to actually do that, but it’s an interesting project
15:14<frosch123>well, given that crash.dmp end up being beyond 20mib lately...
15:14<andythenorth>that does get interesting
15:14<andythenorth>it would scale horribly? :)
15:14<frosch123>while we extract like 500byte from them...
15:15<andythenorth>could we ingest crash reports on a queue, extract the data, incremement statistics, delete the raw report?
15:15<andythenorth>somewhat similar to a behaviour tracking system we wrote for flash games years ago at work
15:16<andythenorth>except not 20mib
15:16<andythenorth>more like a few kb
15:18<frosch123>hmm, maybe release builds are compiled without debug symbols
15:19<frosch123>stable binary is about 2mib smaller than nightly for osx
15:22<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> so there used to be an automated crash reporter? o_O <-- i vaguely remember a button like "send crash report", but i think that never worked. or was disabled on most platforms, or something
15:24<andythenorth>eh ok
15:24<andythenorth>well I closed 2 OS X bugs
15:24<andythenorth>398 FS left :P
15:25<@planetmaker>frosch123, andythenorth I used to get stacktraces on OSX... but maybe things changed?
15:25<@planetmaker>you need to compile as debug build possibly, though
15:27<andythenorth>how would this get closed? :)
15:28<andythenorth>if it’s possibly fixed?
15:28<andythenorth>another OS X, no stacktrace
15:29<frosch123>andythenorth: i guess you can close 6365
15:29<andythenorth>no further reports?
15:29<frosch123>apparently not
15:30<frosch123>andythenorth: i bet 6393 is "out of memory"
15:31<frosch123>hmm, nah
15:31<andythenorth>seems to be a pattern of OS X AI bugs?
15:31<frosch123>it is a 32bit binary, and it uses 32bpp blitter, but no 32bpp baseset
15:32<frosch123>though... does that change it?
15:32<frosch123>it's the same memory usage right?
15:32<andythenorth>hmm, AI issues aren’t specific to OS X, nvm
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>doesn't the sprite cache size get automatically adjusted?
15:32<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: yes, but before the ais
15:33<frosch123>so after spritecache you have very little heap, and ai may use all of that
15:33<frosch123>andythenorth: can you find a pattern "32bit binary, 32bit blitter, ai crash"?
15:33<frosch123>all of those are potentially "out of memory"
15:34<andythenorth>I tagged all the crashes :P
15:34<andythenorth>they’re not all out of memory, I can see that much :)
15:35<andythenorth>if only we had a thing that parsed crash logs into sqlite or something :P
15:35<frosch123>you can likely write a python script for that
15:35<frosch123>query all fs, download all crash.log, parse them
15:36<andythenorth>sounds like a job for LordAro :)
15:36<frosch123>poor boy :)
15:36<andythenorth>Wolf01 was bored earlier
15:37<andythenorth>flyspray has rss buried somewhere
15:37<andythenorth>or just curl html and use libxml or something
15:37<andythenorth>walking the dom is always fun :P
15:38<frosch123>i would use regex on the html
15:38<andythenorth>the horrible thing is, given a spare weekend I could actually write this in python :|
15:38<andythenorth>it wouldn’t be good, but it would work
15:38<frosch123>i would think it's a single-use software
15:43<andythenorth>for 32 bug reports, manually processing them would be faster
15:43<andythenorth>but reall dull
15:44<andythenorth>really *
15:45<andythenorth> looks like 32 bit blitter + binary
15:46<andythenorth>oh no, that’s a 64 bit binary
15:46*andythenorth looking in wrong place :P
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15:48<andythenorth> 32 bit blitter + binary
15:49<andythenorth> 32 bit blitter + binary, AI Crash (comment by frosch123)
15:50<andythenorth> 32 bit blitter + binary
15:51<frosch123>6322 says "out of memory" in the crash.log explicitly :)
15:51<frosch123>i guess the question was whether ottd should catch ais causing out of memory
15:52<andythenorth>I’ve been through all 32 FS ‘Crash:’, those are the ones that fit the criteria
15:52*andythenorth could have made mistakes but eh
15:52<frosch123>(in this case the ai tires to allocate 200mib, which is 10% of everything, and spritecache already takes like 50%)
15:53<andythenorth>seems like there are four possibly related to same cause?
15:53<frosch123>andythenorth: well, two of them already blame the ais in the comments :)
15:53<andythenorth>should I link them? Or overkill?
15:54<frosch123>keep 6322, link the rest as duplicate
15:57<andythenorth>oh probably this as well?
15:58<frosch123>so we have a 32bit macosx user in 2017 :)
15:58<andythenorth>seems OS X will segfault on OOM
15:58<andythenorth>or so random google searches imply :P
15:58<andythenorth>“andythenorth is not a programmer”
15:59<andythenorth>also seems OS X will segfault if trying to allocate more than 3GB on a 32bit system
16:00<frosch123>i guess since 6615 is recent, we could recommend to disable 32bpp blitter via openttd.cfg or command line
16:01<andythenorth>I closed it as duplicate, should I reopen and request user tries 8bpp blitter?
16:01<frosch123>no reopen, just a hint
16:01<frosch123>i doubt the user would get that info from the other task
16:01<frosch123>actuall,y the guy runs osx 10.12
16:02<frosch123>so 10.12 does exist for 32bit?
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16:04<andythenorth>not afaik
16:04<frosch123>well, 6615 says so
16:05<andythenorth>internet says Apple dropped 32 bit CPU support in 2011, but they still support 32 bit apps until 10.14
16:07<andythenorth> is 32 bit blitter / 32 bit build, but looks like a different cause?
16:07<frosch123>yes, if it is reproducible with the save :)
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16:11<andythenorth>well 7 closed today
16:12<andythenorth>this one is intriguing
16:12<andythenorth>it’s rare to see a newgrf-related crash afaik
16:13<andythenorth>I accidentally discovered it, because habitually I ignore the ‘newgrfs are missing’ message on game load
16:13<andythenorth>due to…reasons
16:13<andythenorth>then I bisected the grfs
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16:20<andythenorth>how is news posted to
16:20<frosch123>via django
16:20<frosch123>it's the only thing we use django for :p
16:21<frosch123>hmm, actually the security advistor is also run via django, but we have not used that in years
16:21<andythenorth>I wondered about posting some updates on state of dev
16:22<andythenorth>but I don’t actually want community comments on it, in a thread
16:22<andythenorth>so not forums
16:22<andythenorth>do I read gitlog right, adf88 now has commit rights?
16:23<andythenorth>so 50% reduction in FS, multiple patches implemented, and new feature for visualising train length? o_O. And a new dev
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16:25<andythenorth>^ that’s news eh
16:25<andythenorth>a project that has good news more likely attracts more decent devs
16:26<frosch123>do you want to blog? :)
16:27<frosch123>tb writes a blog every few years
16:27<frosch123>V used to write blogs on coop, but then switched to writing them at work
16:28<andythenorth>I don’t want to blog no
16:28<frosch123>anyway, i do not develop constantly enough to twitch-stream it :p
16:28<andythenorth>but I would like to attract in 1-2 more devs, to make it all more fun
16:28<frosch123>it's always 5 minuted that, 5 minutes this
16:29<andythenorth>it would be nice to have someone doing little updates
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16:29<andythenorth>I would rather blog than work on the current web stack :P
16:30<andythenorth>but most of all I should finish FIRS v3
16:30<andythenorth>such FIRS
16:31<andythenorth>otoh, if we fix Bananas I can fix the stupidity of FIRS names
16:31<frosch123>write a newgrf newbie guide :)
16:31<andythenorth>I wondered about writing an updated contributing-to-openttd guide
16:31<frosch123>or improve the ottd gui to easily import grf presets
16:31<frosch123>and allow downloading the grfs for presets
16:32<andythenorth>“FIRS Industry Replacement Set”
16:32<andythenorth>“FIRS 2"
16:32<andythenorth>“FIRS Industry Replacement Set 3"
16:32<andythenorth>should have named it better eh?
16:32<frosch123>well, bananas cannot rename stuff :)
16:33<frosch123>one of its biggest downsides
16:34<frosch123>i wonder, if we had a proper spec for bananas, what would it cost to hire some crud to implement it?
16:34<frosch123>or would it end up like the factorio mod portal?
16:35<frosch123>(factorio mod portal was written by some community member, then purchased by the devs, and is cursed since then)
16:35*andythenorth looks at the repo
16:36<andythenorth>so in theory, I could have commit access to extra/website, without having to have access to main repo?
16:36<+glx>hmm it's all or nothing I think
16:36<andythenorth>otherwise I have to do everything in github, and file pull requests against one of you
16:36<andythenorth>and there is no way I want or would get commit right on ottd
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16:37<+glx>too dangerous ;)
16:37<andythenorth>in so many ways
16:37<frosch123>andythenorth: eints is also separate
16:37<frosch123>there is zero reason for it to be in ottd svn
16:37<andythenorth>it would not be a bad project to pioneer moving to github?
16:38<andythenorth>I am surprised there are not more web dev contributors tbh
16:38<andythenorth>although maybe I shouldn’t be
16:38<frosch123>the question is whether it even makes sense to build on top of the old one
16:38<andythenorth>I can’t comment until I get the VM, run it, and figure out how to SSH into it :P
16:38<andythenorth>you’ve scared me with the master server commentary
16:39<frosch123>bananas is fairly easy in comparison
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16:40<frosch123>the advantage of webapps is that you can mostly replace them and migrate the database once
16:40<frosch123>you do not have to keep savegame compatibility :p
16:42<+glx>but sometimes the DB structure is a problem
16:44<_dp_>but in webapps there is IE to deal with :p
16:45*andythenorth will be dropping IE 9 support in Jan 2018 :P
16:45<andythenorth>only 2 years after microsoft
16:45<andythenorth>frosch123 the front end…I’d just rebuild from scratch
16:46<andythenorth>I’ve rebuilt websites and web apps n times
16:46<andythenorth>I’m not a huge fan of technical docs, but is there a basic diagram for bananas?
16:46<andythenorth>either the stack, or data flow?
16:46*_dp_ rebuilt web apps many times too, some of them even successfully :p
16:46<andythenorth>or calls between services
16:47<frosch123>andythenorth: there is a database with iiirc a single table for all the content
16:47<andythenorth>(1) how big is it
16:47<frosch123>when stuff is added, the data is extracted in some safe way, tested with a few scripts, and then repackaged
16:47<andythenorth>(2) are the binaries in the db, or blobs on disk?
16:48<frosch123>can't remember
16:48<frosch123>easy to check with the vm
16:49<andythenorth>hey I didn’t lose it when I migrated laptop :)
16:49<andythenorth>oh maybe I did, that’s just an old Virtualbox config I found
16:51<andythenorth>it’s nice that VirtualBox is free
16:51<andythenorth>I would otherwise pay as much as £8.99 for it
16:51<@peter1138>that much?
16:52<andythenorth>I would not be happy at that price
16:52<andythenorth>well it’s running frosch123
16:52<andythenorth>how do I linux? :P
16:53<frosch123>did your add port-forwarding?
16:53<andythenorth>nor do I have the login password stored here
16:54<andythenorth>ls works :P
16:55<frosch123>oh, 8 tables even
16:55<LordAro>i may or may not have been playing with rewriting the website in django 1.11
16:55<andythenorth>non-committal :P
16:55<frosch123>LordAro: albert may have as well
16:55<frosch123>you should agree on what actually needs doing
16:56<LordAro>i've thrown everything out and started again :p
16:56<LordAro>and am just taking what's relevant
16:56*andythenorth has never djangoed
16:56<_dp_>screw django, lets' rewrite in flask :p
16:56<andythenorth>it’s probably just python views backed by models, with a templating language?
16:56<andythenorth>and some dispatcher
16:56<andythenorth>and a wsgi pipeline frontend?
16:57<andythenorth>+1 to flask
16:57<LordAro>yeah, i mean ultimately django is overkill for what the site currently does
16:57<andythenorth>obviously picking the tech should come before having any actual goals :)
16:57<LordAro>flask comes with its own issues though
16:57<LordAro>i suspect it might be too minimalistic for this
16:58<andythenorth>actually I am -1 to flask
16:58<andythenorth>eints is bottle
16:58<frosch123>andythenorth: i would start with the database layout
16:58<blocage>you talk about the openttd web site ?
16:58<frosch123>anyway, bananas content is on disk
16:58<LordAro>andythenorth: simple.http,clearly
16:58<frosch123>database only contains links
16:58<andythenorth>frosch123: usually I start from core entities in the site => base classes => data structure
16:58<andythenorth>but eh, I live in a world of python objects
16:59<andythenorth>it’s all just tables in sql land
16:59<_dp_>LordAro, how is it "too minimalistic", it can do pretty much everything django can, you just pick separate libraries instead of bundled ones
16:59<andythenorth>are we going to have a framework-off?
16:59<andythenorth>wake me up when it’s done :P
16:59<LordAro>_dp_: i've had bad experiences with those separate libraries
17:00<andythenorth>the currently winning python combo for apps is pyramid + postgres
17:00<andythenorth>website agencies seem to favour django, it’s probably doing more out of the box for them
17:00<andythenorth>everyone hacking their own little thing seems to like bottle or flask
17:00<_dp_>LordAro, I had bad experience trying to make django work with those separate libraries :p
17:01*andythenorth prefers a compile to static html if at all possible
17:02<andythenorth>the master server does what?
17:02<LordAro>there are bits of the site that are dynamic though
17:02<andythenorth>handshakes with clients and routes requests to appropriate services?
17:03<frosch123>andythenorth: there are two parts of master server
17:03<frosch123>one is contacted by the servers to register them
17:04<frosch123>the other part queries the servers on return, to see their status and query newgrf for the website
17:04<frosch123>anyway, no need to touch any of that currently
17:04<andythenorth>is it isolated behind some API>
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17:04<frosch123>it runs without django
17:05<_dp_>I bet it's isolated behind some db :p
17:05<andythenorth>how does django talk to it? Or not ?
17:05<frosch123>through some db iirc
17:05<frosch123>django just reads
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17:05<frosch123>actually, likely plain python without django
17:05<frosch123>just read db contents
17:06*andythenorth needs a stack diagram
17:07<andythenorth>will I make any sense of it by ls-ing dirs in the VM?
17:07<andythenorth>that’s how I usually find my way around web apps
17:07<frosch123>start with the readme :)
17:08<andythenorth>I’ve crashed the VM :)
17:08<LordAro>that took you less than a minute
17:08<andythenorth>pretty good eh?
17:08<frosch123>you crashed the vm without crashing your whole machine?
17:09<andythenorth>resized the virtualbox window
17:09<andythenorth>sounds like our bugs too eh?
17:09<frosch123>it has been long since vbox messed something up, but if, then it took the whole machine with it
17:10<frosch123>andythenorth: i guess you could also read musad source
17:10<andythenorth>so to develop in a VM I have to set up some kind of mount point on OS X
17:10*andythenorth re-phrases
17:10<frosch123>it only contains the base business logic without the gui mess
17:10<andythenorth>so to develop in a VM, I have to…google stuff
17:10<frosch123>andythenorth: i usually configure port forwarding for ssh and http
17:11<frosch123>then login via ssh to the box
17:11<frosch123>or mount via sshfs
17:12<frosch123>andythenorth: i believe that is also written in the readme :p
17:12<andythenorth>it is
17:12<andythenorth>I just have to translate it into OS X, and be sure I’m not breaking our infosec policy
17:14<LordAro>frosch123: on a related subject, the ovh sponsor html stuff is a horrid flash thing, do you think you could dig up something a bit more modern?
17:14<frosch123>LordAro: well, we have not been sponsored for 2 years, just noone removed it
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17:16<andythenorth>shall we just move it all to wix? o_O
17:16<frosch123>i hate their advertisement
17:16<frosch123>squarespace has at least nicer ads
17:17<frosch123>anyway, nope :p
17:17<LordAro>andythenorth: apparently it generates horrendous sites
17:18<andythenorth>I am not sold, not even at £free
17:18<andythenorth>how do I get out of readme.txt?
17:18<andythenorth>I typed ‘edit readme.txt'
17:18<frosch123>how did you get into?
17:18<andythenorth>:q isn’t working
17:18<frosch123>esc :q!
17:18<andythenorth>ctrl-c :quit
17:19<frosch123>i watched a gitlab video recently
17:19<andythenorth>stuck in vim :P
17:20<frosch123>they demonstrated how to login to the deployment vm
17:20<frosch123>which was essentially a shell in a webbroweser
17:20<frosch123>and then the guy used vi to edit something
17:20<frosch123>so you had vi in a webbrowser tab :p
17:21<andythenorth>reset the machine :P
17:21<andythenorth>life is too short for vim
17:22<andythenorth>or finding out what my keyboard is bound too in the VM
17:22<andythenorth>one or the other
17:22<frosch123>oh, true, it may have a german keyboard layout :p
17:22<frosch123>even more reason to login via ssh
17:23<frosch123>so ":" is shift+"."
17:23<andythenorth>that works
17:24<andythenorth>so what do we need to do again?
17:24<andythenorth>- new bananas
17:24<andythenorth>- new website
17:25<Wolf01>Get me less bored
17:25<frosch123>andythenorth: only "new bananas"
17:25<andythenorth>with features?
17:25<frosch123>yes, all those listed yesterday
17:25<andythenorth>do we need to reskin?
17:25<andythenorth>can we avoid that?
17:25<andythenorth>reskinning is like my glamorous day job
17:25<Wolf01>"openttd:" protocol... just kidding
17:25<frosch123>keep the bananas, noone cares about the rest
17:26<frosch123>make it bootstrap again
17:26<andythenorth>and anyone else doing the skin will likely annoy me :p
17:26<andythenorth>I need to learn bootstrap 4 anyway
17:26<andythenorth>I am stuck in 2 and 3 land
17:26<_dp_>is 4 out yet?
17:27<andythenorth>they’ve flipped the main docs over to it
17:27<andythenorth>so I think so
17:27<Wolf01>Man... the one I used last was 2
17:27*andythenorth exploring
17:27<_dp_>idk, still looks alpha to me
17:28<Wolf01>Alpha 6
17:28<Wolf01>There is beta too
17:28<andythenorth>eh it’s all gone flexbox?
17:28<_dp_>I'm waiting for that damn thing for more than a year already
17:29<_dp_>oh, beta indeed
17:29<andythenorth>flexbox is likely 5 years in my future :(
17:29<Wolf01>Flexbox seem the fashion of the moment, and I didn't even used that yet, I usually try all that new stuff
17:29<_dp_>" we finally have our first beta release of Bootstrap 4. In that time, we’ve broken all the things at least twenty-seven times over ..."
17:29<_dp_>sounds promising xD
17:30<andythenorth>yeah, no flexbox for me
17:30<andythenorth>seriously, who is using flexbox anywhere if there is broken IE support?
17:31<andythenorth>presumably mac-using hipster JS developers?
17:31*andythenorth combines stereotypes :P
17:31<Wolf01>ShittIE still used more than Edge :(
17:33<_dp_>I think last web thing I was doing only worked in alpha ff xD
17:37<andythenorth>is bed should I
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