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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-09-01

---Logopened Fri Sep 01 00:00:37 2017
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02:15<risajef>anyone online?
02:21<Flygon>Nothing here but us 'strayans.
02:21<Flygon>Unless you enjoy shitposting, that is.
02:22<Flygon>But unfortunately, thanks to channel rules, I'm probably not allowed to speak 'strayan English.
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02:53<@peter1138>good morning everyone
02:54<Celestar>mowning :D
03:00<andythenorth>how have some people broken their volume settings then? :D
03:00<andythenorth>mine work
03:00<andythenorth>and I’m on a mac, so that’s…unusual
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03:49<risajef>Does someone know what the criterium is for bankruptcy?
04:02<andythenorth>can’t find it in wiki :P
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04:34<andythenorth>358 FS Wolf01 ;)
04:34*andythenorth expects cookies
04:34<andythenorth>I’m into ‘disappointing people’ territory now
04:36<Wolf01>If you give them good reasons while closing, I don't think they get more disappointed than ignoring their feature request for 5-8 years
04:37<andythenorth>I figured that too
04:37<andythenorth>in my job, we find that ‘no’ is acceptable if polite and reasoned
04:37<andythenorth>generally, the people who won’t accept ‘no’ are themselves, not polite nor reasoned
04:37<andythenorth>and can be discounted
04:38<Wolf01>A polite and reasoned "no" is always preferable than silence
04:44<andythenorth>bah, 132 bugs though still
04:45<andythenorth>repro-ing them, meh
04:45<andythenorth>I don’t even have a 4K screen
04:45<andythenorth>ok bbl
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04:53<Wolf01>Is possible to enable the "make OTTD crash" hotkey in release?
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06:05<@planetmaker>Wolf01, that's tied to the debug build via compiler switches
06:06<Wolf01>Yeah, I noticed that
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06:07<andythenorth>planetmaker: this still seems relevant:
06:07<andythenorth>assuming I should keep it open?
06:08<Wolf01>I was browsing the bugs list, 6599 could be marked "with patch" imo
06:09<Wolf01>There are still too many "new" bugs even with comments and patches
06:09<@planetmaker>andythenorth, I think it's a valid feature request. However quite low priority, I guess
06:09<andythenorth>Wolf01: marked it with patch
06:09<andythenorth>Wolf01: have you tested that patch? o_O
06:09<Wolf01>Nope, but adf should have
06:10<andythenorth>oh yeah, it’s an adf patch - he said I can ignore his FS, he will manage them
06:11<Wolf01>Assign them to him
06:11<andythenorth>nah, admin overkill :D
06:11<andythenorth>he asked me to leave them alone
06:12<andythenorth>^ yes, but eh, does a ticket help with that?
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06:16<andythenorth>anyone second closing this?
06:20<Wolf01>It's still applyable on 1.7.1?
06:20<andythenorth>I didn’t try to repro
06:20<andythenorth>requires downloading an unreleased grf
06:20<andythenorth>fuck that
06:20<andythenorth>to be crude :)
06:21<andythenorth>grfs not on bananas -> no repro from andythenorth
06:21<Wolf01>It's a bug of an old version and a pita to reproduce, close it
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06:27<Wolf01>Mmmh, $friend ottd hangs when scanning grfs, and he has just some lightweight ones (no 32bpp etc)
06:29<Wolf01>The first time he noticed it is when he tried to run the game with -n, while -e and normal worked fine, now he is trying a self compiled version and it hangs always
06:33<andythenorth>2nd opinions on this?
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06:53<andythenorth>32 bit squirrel overflow - possibly fixed?
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07:05<andythenorth>wouldn’t this be insanely annoying when clients persistently can’t keep up?
07:13<blocage>hello, I saw -std=gnu++0x, is it mean I can use "auto" keywords ?
07:13<LordAro>blocage: i'd imagine the version of the compilers (currently) on the CF isn't new enough for that
07:14<LordAro>you should still assume C++03, unfortunately
07:14<LordAro>it's being worked on, slowly
07:16<blocage>just for your knowledge I working on new orders_list_list GUI
07:19<andythenorth>good luck :)
07:19<andythenorth>orders are a mess :)
07:19<blocage>in which way ?
07:20<andythenorth>(1) they have evolved organically, standard
07:20<andythenorth>(2) players have many desires for them
07:20<andythenorth>(3) they’re tending to complexity, where simplicity is wanted
07:20<andythenorth>(4) some of the complexity added, doesn’t entirely work
07:20<blocage>currently the plan is to show all orders list
07:21<andythenorth>all in the game?
07:21<andythenorth>interesting concept
07:21<blocage>filtered by your compagny at the end
07:21<andythenorth>nobody thought of that yet
07:21<andythenorth>many wishes for orders, but you found a new one :)
07:22<Wolf01>Do you want to show "lines"?
07:22<blocage>at the end yes
07:22<blocage>I would like have a orders list management instead of current vehicle management
07:22<blocage>I mean line centric
07:23<blocage>Both can coexists
07:23<Wolf01>Yes, shared orders is one line
07:24<andythenorth>worth a poke imho
07:24<andythenorth>to see if the concept has legs
07:24<blocage>once I have the list of orders, I would like highlight lines orders on the map
07:24<blocage>then afteward the path
07:25<Wolf01>Make the lines UI and allow to manage them there first
07:25<blocage>I think visual orders on the map would be good enough to figure out the line
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07:25<blocage>Wolf01, this my plans
07:26<blocage>but currently I make a draft
07:26<blocage>I will probably need some help ^^
07:26<Wolf01>I had some ideas on how to implement that back in time, but never had the courage to do it
07:27<blocage>at the moment I implement the list of lines (orders list)
07:27<blocage>I get used to the Widget by the way
07:27<blocage>but I will have question about how to add some map elements
07:28<Wolf01>The problem is how to create a new line without a vehicle
07:28<blocage>Wolf01, currently I do not solve this issue
07:28<blocage>may I would create a virtual vehicle
07:28<blocage>that have no cost
07:28<Wolf01>I thought about making a virtual vehicle based on the first station type clicked for the order
07:29<blocage>but on my plan at the moment this issue it the last one
07:29<blocage>if you can manage lines that already existing is very convenient
07:31<blocage>as I thought making line from no vehicle, would change the game data, while other change are mainly view changes and do not touch game data
07:32<blocage>how can I compile openttd with debug and not stripped ?
07:34<Wolf01>andythenorth: I think something is starting to get insane
07:38<blocage>make run gdb, interresting
07:39<LordAro>blocage: configure has lots of options
07:39<blocage>I exported CXXFLAGS="-Og -gdb" out of success
07:40<blocage>-ggdb *
07:40<LordAro>guess that works too :p
07:44<blocage>ok with "make run-gdb" do work :)
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08:41<Wolf01>Ok, the log parser seem to work, now I need to complete the parser rules
08:43<andythenorth>awesome :)
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08:59<andythenorth>now we need a VM for it :)
09:00<Wolf01>Now, just put it over an ORM and save the stuff on DB
09:08<andythenorth>“Can we run it on heroku” :P
09:09<andythenorth>Wolf01: ‘free’
09:09<Wolf01>What does it do?
09:10<andythenorth>pre-built postgres etc
09:10<Wolf01>Ah, just like my pc
09:11<andythenorth>can also auto-deploy branches from github
09:11<andythenorth>so continuous deployment
09:11<andythenorth>might be ideal for a log parser tbh
09:11<Wolf01>I could put that shit on github
09:15<Wolf01>Or somebody could finish that, is free, public domain
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09:43<crem>Do you have any estimation of how many people play openttd? Like "monthly active users" or alike.
09:44<frosch123>there are about 70k downloads of stable per month
09:44<frosch123>compare that to about 200 players on public servers every evening
09:45<frosch123>no idea what percentage of those who download stuff actually make it past the intro screen :p
09:45<crem>Wolf01: btw a friendly open source project pioneerspacesim uses something called "google breakpad" for crash reporting and analysis.
09:45<Wolf01>I really don't want to use google services different than google search and youtube
09:46<andythenorth>frosch123: 32 bit squirrel overflow - possibly fixed?
09:48<crem>why? It seems that that breakpad is not a service but something that you can install on your server.
09:48<crem>70k downloads is a lot!
09:49<frosch123>andythenorth: according to comment in 5410, i think so
09:49<Wolf01>crem: I don't like google
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09:50<Wolf01>At least I don't like what it is now
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09:50<@Alberth>it can only get better?
09:50<frosch123>crem: there are 52M downloads of egrvts from bananas (since 2010?)
09:51<andythenorth>that’s a *lot*
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09:51<frosch123>no idea how often people kill their ottd installation, but at least some poeple made it to the content download
09:51<frosch123>oops, wrong column :p
09:51<frosch123>it's only 480k
09:51<frosch123>i looked at the grfid :)
09:52<frosch123>so, about 5% of people who download stable make it to the content download?
09:53<andythenorth>the first-run experience could likely be better, but eh
09:53*andythenorth wonders how many Mac users make it past Gatekeeper
09:54<andythenorth>you can’t just open the binary on a Mac because we’re not signed by Apple
09:54<frosch123>andythenorth: does it require more than clicking "ok"?
09:55<andythenorth>you have to authorise an exception with admin user creds
09:55<andythenorth>I am wondering if we can just get a signed cert
09:55<frosch123>if it can't be solved by clicking windows away, i doubt many manage it
09:55<frosch123>anyway, doesn't the same apply to win?
09:55<andythenorth>NFI :)
09:56<frosch123>me neither :)
09:56<andythenorth>I could start a VM, but not right now
09:56<andythenorth>the Modern IE VMs are actually really good
09:57<frosch123>how does the amount of webdevs testing with edge compare to the actual amount of edge users?
09:57*andythenorth looks
09:58<andythenorth>frosch123: average across our public fleet is 1.59% for Edge
09:58<andythenorth>and some more for Edge Mobile
09:59<frosch123>really? i thought there are no win phones for two years
10:00<andythenorth>highest number in the fleet is 0.60% for Edge Mobile
10:01<andythenorth>almost all of the results are < 0.1%
10:01<andythenorth>fleet size is ~100
10:02<andythenorth>355 FS left
10:09<Wolf01><andythenorth> and some more for Edge Mobile <- strange, I thought I was the only one
10:14<@peter1138>nah, windows doesn't need permissions just to run openttd
10:33<blocage>for those interrested in orders list the draft is here :
10:35<blocage>I have a basic implementation the do not add characters string nor sprites
10:36<frosch123>what does it do?
10:38<blocage>it add a button to the toolbar at right, on button click it show a new window that list all orders list
10:38<frosch123>so similar to group gui?
10:38<blocage>on click on orders list item, show the order list
10:39<blocage>similar to vehicle list ?
10:41<blocage>where can I upload a screenshot ?
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10:45<blocage>the button on right of help button, show the window in the middle
10:45<blocage>the current state is a draft
10:46<@Alberth>why would you need this?
10:47<blocage>now I would like to add a button to the order list to show it on map
10:47<@Alberth>or rather how would you use it?
10:47<@Alberth>ah, ok
10:47<blocage>Alberth, to implement a lines centric GUI
10:47<@Alberth>shouldn't it be a dropdown from the minimap then?
10:47<blocage>instead of vehicle centric GUI
10:48<blocage>Alberth, maybe, but at the moment I need to know how to add an overlay on the map (or objects or I do not know things :D0
10:49<@Alberth> /me doesn't know either, but have a look at how cargodist adds a map overlay
10:52<blocage>the term cargo, is used for goods or for a kind of vehicle ?
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10:58<@Alberth>cargo is stuff you transport
10:59<@Alberth>ie goods, coals, food, etc etc
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10:59<@Alberth>but also passengers and mail
11:02<blocage>ok good I will dig into that topic :)
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11:18<Wolf01>Iz it end of boredom yet?
11:27<blocage>on linux which video driver is used ? SDL ?
11:27<@Alberth>yes, sdl1.2
11:28<@Alberth>you can ask used libraries using ldd: ldd ./openttd
11:34<blocage>technically severals can be linked ?
11:34<blocage>but it's sdl in my case :)
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11:36<@Alberth>you can have several different libraries referenced from one executable
11:37<@Alberth>eg clib and sdl, for example
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12:01<blocage>actually the scene graph is a stack of windows
12:10<blocage>I found the main GUI :D
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27910 /trunk/src/lang (dutch.txt spanish_MX.txt) (2017-09-01 19:45:42 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>spanish (mexican): 10 changes by Absay
13:45<@DorpsGek>dutch: 145 changes by mrLeopold
13:49<_dp_>FWIW last time openttd had 200 mp players was on May 6 and it was that chinese championship
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14:18*peter1138 git pulls
14:18<@peter1138>if only my patches were on the nas
14:21<Wolf01>Thunderstorm again...
14:22<@peter1138>uh oh
14:30<Wolf01>It seem to be all around my town, and here does nothing O_o
14:32<@peter1138>oh 1.6.0
14:32<@peter1138>that's a bit old :p
14:33<__ln__>we haven't had a single thunderstorm this summer :/
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14:39<LordAro>peter1138: not that old :p
14:45<@peter1138>Package: openttd
14:45<@peter1138>Version: 1.4.4-2
14:45<@peter1138>that is ;(
14:46<LordAro>such debian
14:46<LordAro>such debian oldstable, even
14:46<LordAro>you should upgrade
14:47<@peter1138>yeah but it's raspbian
14:47<@peter1138>wants to install tons of new packages to upgrade to 9
14:48<LordAro>funny that
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14:50<@peter1138>i guess i'll use my vps instead :p
14:51<@peter1138>oh of course, our deb packages don't work on stretch
14:53<+glx>probably ICU yes
14:53<LordAro>should probably fix that
14:53<@peter1138>no, libpng12-0
14:54<@peter1138>stretch has libpng16-16
14:54<+glx>libpng has been upgraded ?
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14:56<frosch123> <- peter1138: that has a strech deb from some trunk this week
15:01<@peter1138>is it 1.7.1?
15:01<frosch123>no, some random trunk
15:07<andythenorth>iz cat?
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15:13<andythenorth>isn’t this intensely irritating if there’s a persistently lagging client?
15:13<Wolf01>Ok, finished to upgrade the server apache and php
15:14<Wolf01>And the latest xdebug is nice
15:14<andythenorth>doesn’t 2264 aid DoS-oing servers by accident?
15:14<andythenorth>“pausing to connect client” :P
15:15<frosch123>you can disable that
15:15<frosch123>client needs to be fast enough to catch up afterwards though
15:15<andythenorth>so it’s a valid feature request?
15:16<frosch123>the last server is already selected or something
15:16<frosch123>so it safes two clicks?
15:17<andythenorth>I had a terrible connection when I was playing MP
15:17<andythenorth>I don’t remember thinking “I wish it would auto-reconnect"
15:17<andythenorth>the solution is “get a better connection"
15:22<_dp_>2264 mb useful for players that like to sit afk on servers
15:22<frosch123>are they welcome? :p
15:22<frosch123>andythenorth: also, reconnect on kick :p
15:23<_dp_>I don't mind
15:24<_dp_>though I don't rly understand people that do big goals like 1bil by building some crap and just afking for 30 hours
15:25<_dp_>if goal is too much for you to do in one go than pick a smaller one :p
15:26<frosch123>well, no imagine that afk person has a unstable connection
15:26<frosch123>like here, when people leave and join every minute sometimes
15:26<Wolf01>Imagine me...
15:26<frosch123>then they will again have to mail info@ to ask for unban :p
15:27<andythenorth>I sacked 2664
15:27<_dp_>frosch123, idk, usually when people can connect that means they already have decent connection
15:27<andythenorth>354 FS left
15:27<andythenorth>peter1138 went on some patch spree in March or so
15:28<andythenorth>loads of patches
15:28<andythenorth>all labelled ‘hacky'
15:28<frosch123>make a patchpack :)
15:28<andythenorth>true idea
15:28<andythenorth>not me though
15:29<andythenorth>my patchpack will only remove features
15:30<_dp_>frosch123, patchpack as a mass grave for patches?
15:30<andythenorth>also, like 50% of FS is newgrf requests
15:30<andythenorth>wondering if they can be consolidated :P
15:31<frosch123>4582 and 5006 are the same
15:32<frosch123>4573 is newlandscape, not railtypes
15:32<frosch123>well, actually neither
15:32<frosch123>can already be done now, no newgrf addition needed
15:32<andythenorth>well it’s a request have equivalent of industry var 60
15:33<frosch123>isn't it about the grass around the track?
15:33<andythenorth>snow and stuff
15:33<frosch123>it would only affect the railtype if the underlay shall be affected
15:33<frosch123>but the "sidewalks" are not part of railtypes
15:35<andythenorth>is it rejected?
15:35*andythenorth has drunk half a bottle of wine
15:36<frosch123>no, it's just not "railtypes" :)
15:36<andythenorth>probably not time to go an a FS rejection spree
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15:43<Wolf01>So, we are at risk of flood now... and it didn't even rained too much
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15:45<frosch123>flood and lightning?
15:45<frosch123>would be dangerous in a movie :)
15:47<Wolf01>Usually we get flooded in spring, on summer is more common the hail
15:47<andythenorth>frosch123: are 5006 and 4582 the same? o_O
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15:48<andythenorth>one is a request to turn the spec upside tdown
15:48<andythenorth>the other is hax
15:48<frosch123>upside down won't happen
15:48<frosch123>it breaks yapf cache
15:49<frosch123>hmm, actually, does it?
15:49<frosch123>maybe not
15:49<frosch123>andythenorth: i can't tell, it would actually require thinking about it, which i am not very much interested in
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15:54<andythenorth>Wolf01: got a new crashlog for your parser
15:54<andythenorth>when it’s finished crashing
15:54<andythenorth>2 mins of crashing so far :P
15:55<Wolf01>I'm still trying to get rid of my friend... ehm, I meant, understand what it is his problem with scanning grfs
15:58<frosch123>Wolf01: if you install ottd in / and put openttd.cfg there, it scans the whole filesystem
15:58<Wolf01>No, it's on windows
15:59<Wolf01>And it hangs at 8/19 ~42%
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16:00<andythenorth>which grf is that?
16:00<andythenorth>Wolf01: what does your crashlog parser say I did wrong? o_O
16:01<Wolf01>andythenorth: the parser just parses, it can't tell what's wrong
16:01<andythenorth>shame :)
16:02<Wolf01>BTW, he uses firs, egrvts, sailing ships, and other standard things
16:02<Wolf01>What is strange it's that depending on the way he runs it, the game hangs at a different point
16:03<Wolf01>openttd -n IP hangs at 0%
16:03<Wolf01>Running normally does not hang
16:03<Wolf01>Running the self compiled version hangs at 42%
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16:10<Wolf01>andythenorth: reading the stack trace seem that music made it to crash
16:12<Wolf01>(SequencePlayer::CleanupPlayState() + 32) <- after this a ??? happened and then crashed :P
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16:28<andythenorth>maybe my Flyspray holiday is ending
16:28<andythenorth>might be time to do work on FIRS
16:29<frosch123>shall we open some firs issues?
16:33<andythenorth>in FS?
16:34<frosch123>oi, i expected there to be zero
16:34<andythenorth>they might…get closed ;)
16:34<frosch123>i thought you closed all
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16:34<andythenorth>not quite :P
16:37<andythenorth>Wolf01: shall we patch buoys to be stations?
16:37<Wolf01>Why that monstruosity?
16:37<frosch123>make the ttdp fanboys happy :p
16:37<frosch123>andythenorth: that was rejected long time ago :)
16:38<andythenorth>for reasons?
16:39<Wolf01>Ship NRT?
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16:42<andythenorth>is it done? o_O
16:46<Wolf01>It works
16:47<andythenorth>also… I might ship my bed
16:47<andythenorth>tomorrow is another day
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17:12<LordAro> hmmmm
17:14<frosch123>aw, tb's sandbox page is no longer up
17:14<frosch123>at some point tb made the navigation into two levels
17:15<LordAro>(i'm basically just recreating the site with html5 & css3)
17:15<frosch123>goal was to reduce the number of labels in the bar
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17:19<frosch123>LordAro: i guess it would make sense to reduce the amount of stuff on the website
17:19<frosch123>like "screenshots" shoudl just be a link into the wiki
17:19<LordAro>that's probably fair
17:19<frosch123>imho everything that is not dynamic context should be wiki
17:20<frosch123>possibly with exception of the very frontpage
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>i always found it funny that the phrase "newest screenshots" always showed one of the oldest screenshots :p
17:21<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: what do you mean, it always shows the latest release
17:29<@planetmaker><frosch123> imho everything that is not dynamic context should be wiki <-- I concur
17:29<frosch123>LordAro: i can also forward you 31 items from the mail folder "unhandled screenshots" :)
17:29<LordAro>nothing i can do with them from here ;)
17:29<frosch123>should i send them to andy?
17:30<LordAro>looks like they need to be put in a folder on the webserver
17:31<LordAro>with some _thumb.png & _caption.nfo (??) additional files with it
17:31<frosch123>yes, stuff which people could do themself on the wiki
17:31<frosch123>and deleting some if they get too many :)
17:39<Eddi|zuHause><frosch123> should i send them to andy? <- he'd probably delete them :p
17:39<frosch123>i don't know how to send them, andy does not read mail
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>open an fs task :p
17:40<frosch123>31 new tasks over night, what would he do?
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23:07<nekomaster>So i'm having a bit of an issue with a new project I'm working on
23:08<nekomaster>RAIL type vehicles only appear when I have a Trackset loaded
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---Logclosed Sat Sep 02 00:00:39 2017