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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-09-02

---Logopened Sat Sep 02 00:00:39 2017
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03:05<andythenorth>@summon Wolf01
03:05<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: out of chalk
03:09<@Alberth>wait a few hours :p
03:11<andythenorth>what does it even mean? o_O
03:14<LordAro>just a refactot
03:14<LordAro>probably harmless, if a bit redundant
03:14<andythenorth>good, or reject?
03:15<LordAro>that decision needs a dev :p
03:21*andythenorth wasn’t aware GS couldn’t already do this :)
03:21<andythenorth>_dp_: ^ tested it
03:25<andythenorth>big UI change, based on a thread with no clear outcome
03:28<Eddi|zuHause>i wouldn't be so quick to throw that out
03:28<andythenorth>I’ll rephrase
03:28<andythenorth>I’m not testing that :P
03:29<andythenorth>I’ve hit the end of easily-rejected FS
03:29<andythenorth>I’m working down the list of 64 FS categorised as patch
03:30<andythenorth>seeing if they are testable by me
03:30<andythenorth>common problems with testing:
03:30<andythenorth>- not clear what the intended change would be, so no criteria to test
03:31<andythenorth>- hg patch queues (I refuse, $someone else can do those)
03:31<andythenorth>- codechanges/refactoring with no obvious gameplay result to test
03:32<andythenorth>- patches don’t apply on repo tip I’m using for testing
03:32<andythenorth>- patches are for an OS I don’t have
03:34<LordAro>that's funny because the patch queues are the ones more likely to be accepted :p
03:34<andythenorth>is that historically true?
03:34<andythenorth>I haven’t been through closed patches
03:35<LordAro>i've no idea, but devs very much prefer the smaller individual changes over the large single patch
03:36<andythenorth>presumably I can apply them in git, I just have to read the revs to get them in the right order?
03:36<andythenorth>or are they order-independent?
03:36<LordAro>hopefully the files are prefixed by numbers
03:36<LordAro>so it's obvious which order they are in
03:37<LordAro>`git am` *might* be able to apply them
03:37<LordAro>i did that with ic's improved timetables, but it required some manual steps
03:37<andythenorth>presumably 00 is applied, then 01?
03:38<andythenorth>anything else would seem daft
03:41<andythenorth>seems to be a lot of stuff around filtering
03:41<andythenorth>filter news, filter stations, filter vehicles, filter industry
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03:45<@Alberth>5695 (Patch to make filter_funcs members of BuildVehicleWindow ) doesn't look terribly interesting
03:46<@Alberth>just move some code in the same file
03:46<andythenorth>basically a no-op?
03:47<@Alberth>it's now a function in the file, it becomes a function of that class
03:47<andythenorth>at work, we effectively ban changes like that
03:47<@Alberth>but we have static filter functions all over the place
03:47<andythenorth>it’s cost to QA
03:47<andythenorth>for no customer benefit
03:47<@Alberth>and many of them are shared
03:47<andythenorth>tends to originate with less experienced engineers
03:47<andythenorth>looks harmless
03:48<andythenorth>but sometimes has unintended consequences which show up later
03:48<@Alberth>by "hiding" them in the class, you reduce the chance that it will be found for re-use
03:48<Eddi|zuHause>it would be useful if we were to move towards some cleaner object-oriented model. but just randomly moving it without following such a larger architectural goal is probably useless
03:49<@Alberth>I am not even sure you can make a clean OO model for this
03:49<@Alberth>sharing stuff isn't a storing point in OO :p
03:50<@Alberth>6381 (SetRating) is not implemented currently, and I am very doubtful it should be
03:51<@Alberth>ie the first thing that happens is that some one will write "outstandingGS" that pushes all cities to outstanding rating no matter what you do
03:52<Eddi|zuHause>why is that a bad thing?
03:52<Eddi|zuHause>people request that all the time
03:52<Eddi|zuHause>and the answer is always "use magic bulldozer", which does a bit too much
03:53<@Alberth>let's just have a completely flat world without any obstacle
03:53<@Alberth>it defeats an obstacle in the game
03:53<@Alberth>just like signals on bridges
03:53<Eddi|zuHause>so? lots of other obstacles left
03:53<Eddi|zuHause>people can (and do) already create completely flat maps
03:54<Eddi|zuHause>not all people, but some people
03:54<@Alberth>sure, and that's fine
03:54<@Alberth>but why do you use water if you don't want obstacles?
03:54<Eddi|zuHause>it's a game. people should be able to remove the annoying limitations of a game and keep the interesting ones
03:55<Eddi|zuHause>what's annoying and what's interesting varies between people and playstyles
03:56<Eddi|zuHause>"this doesn't align with <random dev>'s playstyle" is not a good reason to reject gameplay features
03:56<@Alberth>so we just accept any patch?
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03:57<Eddi|zuHause>non sequitur
03:58<@Alberth>ie ignore TE and power on engines patch?>
03:58<@Alberth>I mean, it's just horrible annoying that steam trains do'n to 40000 km/h
03:59<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: if enough people requested that? why not?
03:59<@Alberth>disable crashes en ignore signals patch?
03:59<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: that's a perfectly fine cheat.
04:01<@Alberth>cheats are just a way to hide some functions that we like less, imho
04:01<@Alberth>move all cheats to plain functions in the game?
04:02<@Alberth>I don't see any border where to guide on, any more
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04:02<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: i'd split it into "disable crashes of trains with road vehicles" [possibly vehicle breaks down instead], and "disable crashes between two trains" [trains behave like road vehicles]
04:03<@Alberth>yeah, there are a zillion variations how to do it
04:03<@Alberth>I was just dumping random weird ideas to find a border
04:03<@Alberth>but that failed
04:04<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think we'll come to an agreement about this.
04:05<@Alberth>I wasn't going to reject 6381, but I won't add it either
04:05<@Alberth>seems likely, Eddi :)
04:06<LordAro>Alberth: isn't the whole point of andy's close spree that doing nothing with an issue is bad?
04:06<LordAro>close it or engage in some sort of dialogue about it
04:06<@Alberth>any picture for 5981 ?
04:06<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: how was this not a dialog? :p
04:06<@Alberth>not at FS, I think
04:06<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, which ended in "i'm not going to do anything with it"
04:07<@Alberth>you can close issues as much as you like, but that doesn't stop the stream
04:07<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: yeah, next step would be looking for a dev willing to take it on
04:08<@Alberth>but nobody does that
04:08<@Alberth>so it sits there, and then it's our fault
04:08<@Alberth>oh joy
04:09<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, we might not have enough devs, and not the infrastructure/coordination to regularly discuss open requests like that
04:12<andythenorth>dialogue eh
04:12*andythenorth might have a product for that :P
04:23<andythenorth>it’s ok, any issue over 3 years old naturally dies
04:23<andythenorth>eventually the number of FS is ~constant, because they’re dying at rate they’re added
04:29<Eddi|zuHause>that logic does not quite add up :p
04:31<LordAro>Alberth: i don't mean to assign blame at all. it just seems pointless to leave it there to do nothing if it's just going to rot until an andy comes along and deletes it
04:33<LordAro>i'm always reasonably impressed when i come across a github project that's actually on top of its issue count, and amused when i come across something like
04:34<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I’m assuming a constant rate of addition per day
04:34<andythenorth>and an equivalent constant rate of closure
04:35<andythenorth>I think that’s testable :P
04:39<andythenorth>Alberth: for the record, I like 6381, I think GS should pretty much have carte-blanche :)
04:39<andythenorth>delegating behaviours we don’t like to content is a good approach
04:41<@Alberth>LordAro: if the issues address things I see as problem too, it's simple to "be on top of them"
04:41<@Alberth>in OpenTTD, it's much like the suggestions forum, you get basically everything
04:42<@Alberth>ie the more mature the project, the more diverse the issues, as core stuff is running
04:43<LordAro>that's true
04:43<LordAro>perhaps it needs to be bundled under a larger "sandbox mode" issue
04:43<LordAro>in this particular case
04:43<@Alberth>even more sand than we have now? :D
04:46<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: I never applied for reviewing and judging random patches that have no meaning to me, and I think that holds for all
04:47<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: lots of people end up doing things they didn't apply for :p
04:47<@Alberth>so it's basically down to the devs interest
04:47<@Alberth>if I get paid, I don't care (much) :p
04:48<andythenorth>I was thinking same other day, in a positive way
04:48<andythenorth>was going to reply in one of recent forum threads, but didn’t find correct words
04:48<andythenorth>variation of “what I make, I make for me"
04:49<andythenorth>I like that there are players, and I like have players use my stuff
04:49<andythenorth>but my objective when I started wasn’t popularity or download counts
04:49<@Alberth>that doesn't hold much for me, I am more interested in solving the technical problem
04:49<@Alberth>if other like it too, that's bonus
04:50<@Alberth>but that's also a personal thing, different people have different goals
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04:53<@Alberth>I think if you want to have a dev look at it, you have to "sell" it to some extent
04:54<LordAro>s/"sell" it/nag them constantly/
04:55<@Alberth>ie the big UI change 5981, it doesn't even have a screenshot
04:56<@Alberth>so I have to make a clone, get the patch, apply, compile, run, find the windows that changed from the patch file, and then look
04:56<andythenorth>I’m intending, if I can be arsed
04:56<andythenorth>to make a guide to getting a patch through
04:56<andythenorth>but that somewhat pre-supposes active reviewers :)
04:56<@Alberth>then unapply the patch, compile, run the game, and look again to check what exactly changed
04:57<@Alberth>that takes me 30 minutes or so
04:57<@Alberth>just to see what has actually changed
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04:59<andythenorth>all that, and the natural destiny of most patches is still ‘no’ :)
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05:00<andythenorth>where is the line crossed where devs have a social responsibility to the community?
05:00<andythenorth>is that even a thing?
05:00<blocage>Alberth, why do not reply that to the bug: split patch for each chang, submit screenshot before/after
05:00<andythenorth>I know some people making open-source, 3D printable replacement limbs
05:00<andythenorth>we’re making a game about pixel trains :P
05:00<andythenorth>social responsibility differs, eh?
05:01<@Alberth>I see my responsibility as providing a stable game
05:02<@Alberth>blocage: sure, but I mean, isn't it equally logical that the author himself thinks of this?
05:02<andythenorth>not sure I feel any social responsibility :P
05:03<andythenorth>I do in my actual job, but not here
05:03<gentz>I will take your advice LordAro, buy nagging you guys to add this patch:
05:03<blocage>Alberth, not all author as experimented opensource developpers
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05:04<andythenorth>lo Wolf01
05:04<@Alberth>blocage: but it's the same everywhere, a report, a presentation
05:04<@Alberth>but be my guest, add a note :)
05:04<andythenorth>contributing to the project is a mess eh? :)
05:05<@Alberth>gentz: oh that one
05:05<andythenorth>where do Iook for guidance? Forums? Wiki? Here? Github? do-not-readme?
05:05<gentz>Ummm... is there any specific dev I should nag/sell my idea too?
05:05<andythenorth>gentz: no
05:05<gentz>Or do I just do that to all of you?
05:05<andythenorth>you just have to get lucky on one who is interested at the time
05:05<@Alberth>if it wasn't me, I would not have responded
05:05<andythenorth>you’ll mostly get no
05:06<@Alberth>I don't think this will fly, ever
05:06<@Alberth>you tried this in MP?
05:06<Wolf01>andythenorth: why are you trying to summon me at that hour? XD
05:06<andythenorth>what’s left?
05:06<gentz>Alberth, no
05:06<andythenorth>that list is full of ponies, which aren’t needed
05:06<gentz>Hold on as I test it
05:07<@Alberth>I assume it will desync horribly, without even having seen the patchbut aside from that, mass-upgrade between rail-types
05:07<Wolf01>Eh, roadtypes built by towns might be a requirement
05:07<@Alberth>but aside from that, mass-upgrade between rail-types is something that the default set enforces
05:07<andythenorth>what if we ship it in the nightly, and find out about towns being a requirement?
05:08<@Alberth>if you don't want that, don't play with the default set
05:09<@Alberth>imho a much better strategy here is to create new lines alongside the old ones
05:09<andythenorth>might just close all patch FS > 3 years
05:10<@Alberth>that's much more fun than just mass-upgarde and continue doing what you already did
05:10<gentz>I can proudly say it didn't dsync!
05:10<@Alberth>andy some may be relevant for being kept open
05:10<Wolf01>If I get frosch to merge my branch to NRT, at least to fix the editor, or we can ship NRT as it is now and fix things with time
05:11<@Alberth>gentz: unfortunately, lack of desync doesn't proof safety
05:11<andythenorth>the more I look at the patch queue, the more I hate it
05:11<@Alberth>stop looking :p
05:11<gentz>Alberth, what more testing does it need?
05:11<andythenorth>Alberth: that’s cheating :)
05:11<andythenorth>I have chosen to play this game, and I won’t quit yet
05:12<@Alberth>gentz: I don't think it will be merged
05:12<@Alberth>newgrf has solved this problem
05:12<andythenorth>so we have ‘patch’ category
05:12<andythenorth>and we have ‘with patch’ status
05:12<gentz>But my patch doesn't add a new rail-type
05:13<andythenorth>just ‘patch’ category tells nothing about whether it’s bug or feature request
05:13<@Alberth>gentz: if you want to skip upgrade, simply start in 2100 or so
05:13<@Alberth>enable "all trains forever"
05:13<LordAro>gentz: i warned you :3
05:13*andythenorth wonders
05:13<andythenorth>what is this upgrading business?
05:13*andythenorth never upgrades
05:13<andythenorth>seems to cause a lot of heartache
05:13<andythenorth>for those who do
05:14<andythenorth>why is it a thing?
05:14<@Alberth>default set forces you to upgrade
05:14<LordAro>andythenorth: i feel like most of these "issues" will go away if/when a move to something with issues/pullrequests built in
05:14<gentz>All it does is remove the same rail-type check from the replace window and call autoreplace on every train in a depot
05:14<andythenorth>that’s the default gameplay Alberth, why change it?
05:14<@Alberth>ask gentz
05:14<gentz>How could it possibly dysnc!
05:14<andythenorth>seems like we need UI scripting to me
05:15<andythenorth>shitloads of FS is about order and train management
05:15<@Alberth>it's a train game :p
05:15<andythenorth>nearly all of them quite person-specific requests
05:15<andythenorth>which would be solved with a scriptable UI
05:15<andythenorth>except nobody would bother writing the scripts :)
05:15<andythenorth>but eh
05:16<LordAro>i'd imagine it's probably fine desync-wise, given it doesn't actually call any commands itself
05:16<Wolf01>Ok, I was about to say something but you already discussed about it, so I keep reading
05:16<LordAro>but bugs are almost by definition not easy to spot
05:17<gentz>Which is why we should push it to trunk and wait for someone to spot something!
05:17<@Alberth>gentz: you're still with the idea to fix the default set, that's no-go land, especially as it has been solved already in newgrfs
05:18<@Alberth>and I think you play the game in the wrong way by mass-upgrading, but that's just my idea
05:18<gentz>Whats the point of an convert tool if we can't/shouldn't use it?
05:19<@Alberth>ie if you enable "never remove old models" your entire problem disappears
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05:19<@Alberth>what you mean, you can't use it? it works perfectly for everything but vehicles
05:20<gentz>Can't use it without redoing all your trains.
05:20<gentz>Also the convert tool is only available for trains
05:21<gentz>Its nice for normal rail to electric... but nothing else
05:21<@Alberth>if you use railtypes that partly overlap, it works in general
05:22<gentz>But nothing overlaps between electric and monorail (unless you use newgrfs)
05:23<@Alberth>why do you insist on a 1-1 copy of an entire new railtype in 1 minute?
05:23<@Alberth>the game is about building new track and stations etc
05:24<andythenorth>does recoding the base set trains in newgrf solve this?
05:24<@Alberth>why do you don't avoid the entire issue by picking another railtype of trainset or start year
05:24<andythenorth>just make them cross-compatible
05:24<andythenorth>rail <-> maglev <-> monorail
05:24<@Alberth>that will work, quite likely
05:24<andythenorth>boring upgrade clicks removed
05:25<gentz>andythenorth, I can get behind that
05:25<gentz>If it works
05:25<@Alberth>but why do you start a game in a setup where you KNOW that point will come
05:25*andythenorth wonders
05:25<@Alberth>change the setup
05:25<andythenorth>if all base vehicles were recoded as newgrf, with clean nml source
05:25<gentz>Alberth, its a server which goes from 1940-2050
05:25<andythenorth>a lot of problems would disappear
05:26<gentz>You got to upgrade eventually
05:26<@Alberth>gentz: so?
05:26<@Alberth>use nuts
05:27<@Alberth>all train models exist for 255 years
05:27<Wolf01>I solved the problem at the root: I only use rails (normal, electrified, different speed), not a single monorail or maglev
05:28<gentz>It seams I'm not good at "selling"/nagging people here
05:28<Wolf01>There are grfs for what you want, why bother about vanilla stuff?
05:28<gentz>I couldn't convince the server operator to add a new grf
05:28<@Alberth>gentz: you're not even open for other solutions, no point in discussing anything
05:29<gentz>so I thought I could convince you guys
05:29<Wolf01>Ahaha "I can't change one server so I'll change all of them"
05:30<@Alberth>you haven't made any point other than "I want this, and only this, and this whatI want"
05:30<gentz>Alberth: What would be the requirement for scriptable ui?
05:30<@Alberth>if you want to convince anyone, you have to pull their counter arguments down
05:30<@Alberth>not MP killing, I think
05:31<@Alberth>unless you like an arms race in scripting the game
05:31<@Alberth>which is easier to achieve by making AIs
05:32*andythenorth imagines a scriptable UI that can build 10k trains at once :P
05:33<@Alberth>no need for copy/paste anymore
05:33<andythenorth>and then delete them at the end of the journey
05:33<gentz>What specific things would it need to do?
05:33<gentz>*be able to do
05:33<@Alberth>you just build the entire layout in 1 second
05:33<@Alberth>it's more what it shouldn't be able to do
05:34<@Alberth>If I have a script to assist me, normal players have no chance whatsoever
05:34<gentz>One could limit number of actions a script can do per second
05:35<@Alberth>1/second, so 400 train conversions or 10 wagons take 4000 secinds?
05:36<@Alberth>just an hour-ush
05:36<@Alberth>*of 10 wagons
05:36<andythenorth>main irritating thing about patches - besides the work involved - is lack of context
05:37<@Alberth>or laying a 200 tile track, 30 seconds?
05:37<gentz>4/second would take 15mins
05:37<andythenorth>I _think_ that’s what irritates frosch about them too maybe
05:37<gentz>Just as long as me
05:37<andythenorth>improving a section of the game goes better with at least some aims and a plan
05:37<andythenorth>not just applying patches
05:38<andythenorth>and lots of patches from people who won’t join irc and actually discuss
05:38<@Alberth>most patches are too small scaled in aim
05:38<@Alberth>which is understandable, but not very useful
05:38<andythenorth>also, patches have a skewed value system
05:39<andythenorth>some contribute patches, and see the patch as being very high value item
05:39<andythenorth>whilst neglecting value of work to test patch, review patch
05:39<@Alberth>gentz: we should add a payment option :p
05:39<andythenorth>and value of work to ensure the game has at least some coherence to the design
05:39<@Alberth>pay 50 to finish now :p
05:39<andythenorth>the funny thing is
05:39<Wolf01>andythenorth: what would you expect from the log parser? Other than just parsing the content of the log and put it into a database, and maybe some statistics
05:40<andythenorth>Wolf01: that seems like enough win there
05:40<andythenorth>the funny thing is….I get every pony I want
05:40<andythenorth>but I only have two actual author commits
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05:40<andythenorth>so how?
05:40<@Alberth>you don't aim for unattainable ponies
05:41<@Alberth>and you're here discussing the pony
05:41<@Alberth>and why it's interesting
05:41<andythenorth>I also make mockups, test grfs, nml patches
05:41<andythenorth>I would do the docs, but I’m banned from newgrf wiki
05:41<andythenorth>I also expect a default ‘no’ and I’m not surprised when I get it
05:41<@Alberth>but you make a case for it
05:42<@Alberth>and you accept that not everything is possible
05:42<@Alberth>probably from knowing the general limits and general direction
05:42<andythenorth>I also test patches ASAP when asked, even if I really can’t be arsed a the time
05:43<@Alberth>including patches we need tested, and you happen to be the owner of a device :p
05:43<andythenorth>so I’m pretty awesome eh
05:43<@Alberth>yeah :)
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05:44*andythenorth clones andythenorth
05:44<@Alberth>uhoh... :p
05:44<andythenorth>actually I don’t get every pony
05:44<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> just make them cross-compatible <-- that exists, it is called "universal railtype"
05:44<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that too :)
05:44<andythenorth>solved problem
05:45<andythenorth>sad ponies: there’s some stuff about the mess of water transport that I can’t get any traction for at all
05:45<andythenorth>maybe I should try and patch it :P
05:45<gentz>Ok, so the scriptable ui will need time limit on actions and a feature to donate to gentz... anything else before I try to do it?
05:46<@Alberth>very likely
05:46<andythenorth>donations :)
05:46<Eddi|zuHause>gentz: our builtin squirrel interpreter has a limit to "opcodes"
05:46<andythenorth>there are example cases in FS that could only (imo) be met by scripting
05:46<@Alberth>and has been disabled on design
05:47<andythenorth>there is no good UI for that request, it’s basically a bullshit request with no thought in it
05:47<Eddi|zuHause>which is not perfect, some supposedly "atomic" operations that took too long were forbidden. like "sort"
05:47<andythenorth>it’s a total “I want a pony” from someone who can’t actually ride
05:48<andythenorth>but a script could walk all vehicles, looking for the order, and replacing it
05:48<@Alberth>I am quite opposed to automating stuff
05:48<gentz>FS? Whats that?
05:48<andythenorth>where ideas go to die :)
05:48<Eddi|zuHause>the bug tracker
05:48<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: enabling AI for human player companies is supposedly a one-line patch
05:49<@Alberth>the entire point of a game is to be busy with it
05:49<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but it was deliberately disabled
05:49<@Alberth>automating everything just deafeats that
05:49<andythenorth>I dunno
05:49<andythenorth>I don’t really care how people play
05:49<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: well, you'll get busy with automating things... it's just a metalevel game :p
05:49<andythenorth>you can use comic sans on a mac, even though Steve Jobs was a typography perfectionist
05:49<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: write an AI
05:50<@Alberth>start programming in C++
05:50<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the problem is "cheating" on servers that try to be competetive (even though that is a goal that can never be achieved)
05:50<@Alberth>ie it's not openttd :p
05:50<andythenorth>I give, to be crude, zero fucks about MP other than desyncs
05:51<andythenorth>so much MP bollocks
05:51<@Alberth>pretty much all servers are not co-op play
05:51<andythenorth>playing MP to win is stupid in a non-winnable game
05:51<andythenorth>GS is different
05:52<@Alberth>you just redefine winning :p
05:52<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yet, some people do it... are those people stupid?
05:52<andythenorth>no, but specifically designing in that direction is stupid
05:53<andythenorth>last time I played non-GS MP, I spent most of my time building a castle with newgrf
05:53<@Alberth>we're not taking many economic patches, you know :p
05:53<andythenorth>and griefing Pikka
05:53<andythenorth>non GS MP is mostly lulz
05:53<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: anyway, if you allow AI on human companies, then you'll attract the "wallhack"-"aimbot" crowd
05:54<andythenorth>is that good or bad?
05:54<Eddi|zuHause>say, someone makes a script that places rails whenever someone else places a station
05:54<andythenorth>maybe we should add *more* griefing opportunities
05:54<Eddi|zuHause>so the player can never use the station
05:54<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: well those people can play on bot servers against each other
05:54<Eddi|zuHause>or, they buy exclusive rights in every town
05:54<@Alberth>if they did, it would be no problem
05:55<gentz>Then they'd just ban ais
05:55<andythenorth>what’s the problem in MP?
05:55<gentz>And I'd get to enjoy my auto upgrades for a week
05:55<@Alberth>we did, by not allowing scriptable UI
05:55<andythenorth>why don’t griefers just get kbanned?
05:55*andythenorth is perplexed
05:55<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that needs efficient moderator/administrator tools
05:56<@Alberth>if I build a station in 0.1 seconds, is that grieving?
05:56<@Alberth>20 platforms, and all entry and exit tracks, signalling, everything?
05:56<andythenorth>it’s efficient
05:56<andythenorth>but you are convincing me towards -1 on scriptable UI
05:56<andythenorth>due to wailing from MP players
05:56<andythenorth>MP is a pox on the game :P
05:57<@Alberth>so I can fill the entire map with proper routes in less than a minute
05:57<Eddi|zuHause>mind you, i'm not actually an MP player, i just take on a random position in this discussion
05:57<@Alberth>nice competitive play then :p
05:57<andythenorth>at which point you have won at writing scripts
05:57<gentz>Current AI has a speed limit, yes?
05:57<andythenorth>that’s some pretty good AI programming imho
05:57<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: solution might be a server flag "no scripts allowed"
05:57<@Alberth>andythenorth: find a server with a fixed map
05:57<Eddi|zuHause>(hoping that people don't use "hacked" clients which ignore this flag)
05:58<Eddi|zuHause>also, something like the landscaping burst limits, for arbitrary commands
05:58<andythenorth>no problem that isn’t solved with another flag
05:58<andythenorth>except too many flags
05:58<Eddi|zuHause>flag to reduce the number of flags
05:58<gentz>check for hacked client flag?
05:58<@Alberth>how are you going to do that?
05:58<Eddi|zuHause>gentz: we have that, it's called "version string"
05:59<Eddi|zuHause>gentz: but you can hack that, too :p
05:59<andythenorth>can never trust the client
05:59<andythenorth>what stops me just making a client with scripting in it, and joining servers?
05:59<@Alberth>just a lot of work
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06:00<@Alberth>and probably you should avoid being too obvious cheating
06:00<@Alberth>if you like that meta-game
06:00<gentz>So are you folks proposing hacking my client just so I don't have to manually upgrade trains?
06:00<andythenorth>sounds like office space Alberth
06:00<gentz>I like it
06:01<gentz>I'll start counting number of days till I'm banned from everything
06:01<@Alberth>play at a more sane server is simpler
06:01<andythenorth>plot of Office Space is something like exploiting integer maths to siphon a penny off from financial transactions
06:01<andythenorth>only they do it wrong and get too much money
06:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: something like that happened...
06:02<Eddi|zuHause>it was in the news a few years ago
06:03<Eddi|zuHause>they implemented a system that banks use to transfer money back and forth, and cut off after like 4 decimal digits
06:03<Eddi|zuHause>was in place for years
06:03<Eddi|zuHause>earned a really really large sum of money
06:04<@Alberth>we should just have a single world-wide currency :p
06:04<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: "love"? :p
06:04<gentz>Who will print it?
06:05<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: even bitcoin split into two, because they couldn't quite agree
06:06<@Alberth>bitcoin is weird, make money by spending cpu time :p
06:06<andythenorth>can I recategorise all “Patch” as “Feature Request” or “Bug"
06:06<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: how is that more weird than making money by digging through dirt?
06:06<andythenorth>bug tracker has many many ways of classifying, and very limited actual usefulness
06:06<andythenorth>lo _dp_
06:06<_dp_>chat is so fast lately I can't even catch up xD
06:06<@Alberth>try #python for a change :p
06:07<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: it's all andys fault
06:07<@Alberth>it's hard to follow one discussion there
06:07<Wolf01><andythenorth> can I recategorise all “Patch” as “Feature Request” or “Bug" <- Yes, you can
06:07<@Alberth>andy, some "has patch attached" would be a useful notion, I think
06:08<andythenorth>there is ‘with patch’ status
06:08<andythenorth>which seems useful
06:08<@Alberth>eddi fair point :)
06:08<_dp_>upgrading railtypes is such a huge pain that all our servers are set up in a way that it's never ever required
06:09<_dp_>not sure if that patch will help any but would be nice to have an upgrades that actually work
06:09<@Alberth>gentz: ^ one sane server :)
06:09<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: pre-colonial american societies used seashells as currency
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06:10<gentz>Or you guys could stop breaking my heart and make me happy
06:10<@Alberth>likely we did something weird too in the past
06:10<gentz>by merging it
06:10<andythenorth>Samu’s patches are a classic of ‘but why?'
06:10<gentz>And ignoring all protential bugs
06:10<andythenorth>what if it’s not a feature request, or a bug?
06:10<andythenorth>but refactoring?
06:10<@Alberth>andy, sometimes he did shoot correctly
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: after WWII cigarettes were a common "currency" in destroyed europe
06:10*NGC3982 hand a snail to Eddi|zuHause and expects service.
06:11<@Alberth>so smoking cost money, in a very real sense :p
06:11<Wolf01>andythenorth: change "patch" to "codechange"
06:11<andythenorth>I have no admin rights :)
06:12<Wolf01>Leave the ones which aren't fix or feature as patch
06:12<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: my grand grandfather lived in the middle of sweden during the war. he (like most of us up here) was not affected directly by the war, more than having to live beside the rails that reach to the top of norrland (northest of sweden). when we cleaned his house after his death we found german cigarettes in big quantities, and we think germans traveling trough sweden traded with him.
06:12<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: currencies are weird in general. there must be a) enough of it to facilitate trading, b) some difficulty to make more of, c) some difficulty to fake it
06:13<andythenorth>Alberth: Samu seems like a stopped clock :)
06:13<NGC3982>sed -i e/big/large/g
06:13<andythenorth>right twice a day, but should it be kept? o_O
06:13<NGC3982>sed -i e/grand g*/great g*/g
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06:14<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: that is probably not valid sed :p
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>also, you can ommit the g if there's only one instance (per line)
06:16<NGC3982>haha, i just wrote something
06:16<NGC3982>i usually have to man seds, since botching it has concequences up the pooper.
06:16<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, i have no clue what e does
06:16<NGC3982>its an important feature
06:16<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: yeah, don't use -i until you're sure it's right
06:16<NGC3982>it aligns the galaxies in the local group to better focus the cpu energy
06:18<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: how does that affect my Akasha devices?
06:19<andythenorth>how would a patch like this even get decided on yes / no?
06:19<andythenorth>it’s a binary decision, and we have no BDFL
06:19<NGC3982>its funny. i had to google that. it sounded like some Yamaha bluetooth device
06:19<NGC3982>it was indian cosmology. neat. :-p
06:20<Wolf01>andythenorth: that patch is pure bullshit
06:20<@Alberth>andythenorth: I think it's invalid, but not sure
06:20<@Alberth>ie there is a time window where the map is being copied
06:20<@Alberth>there you can really not do anything
06:20<Wolf01>Since threading autosave starts after copying the map, and copying the map means the game must be freezed
06:20<@Alberth>outside that window, imho the sleep cursor should not happen
06:21<@Alberth>but I don't know for sure that is really the case
06:21<andythenorth>so it can be approached as a technical question?
06:21<@Alberth>although it seems very likely that it is programmed like that
06:21<andythenorth>rather than an aesthetic choice?
06:21*andythenorth brb
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06:23<Eddi|zuHause>i think the Zzzz cursor appears during that copying step, and disappears once compressing/writing is forked
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>but i'm not really sure
06:23<@Alberth>the same here, I never really checked it
06:24<@Alberth>there is an aesthetic choice of course, but everybody wants less Zzz cursor, so that's all aligned nicely :)
06:24<_dp_>> <Alberth> it defeats an obstacle in the game
06:24<_dp_>trees are only obstacles for complete newbies :p
06:25<_dp_>most players just spam trees
06:25<_dp_>and some like me even have hotkey for that
06:25<_dp_>so it's pure annoyance
06:25<@Alberth>imho it's mostly a bug that trees work :p
06:26<@Alberth>but yeah, cities are a pain
06:26<_dp_>though I've already enabled magic bulldozer on our servers so I'm totally fine with that never being implemented
06:26<@Alberth>not sure why the original game made it like that
06:26<_dp_>it just means it will be harder for other servers to be as cool as ours :p
06:27<@Alberth>it pushes towards industrial cargo
06:28<@Alberth>which I guess is more interesting from a transport point of view
06:28<_dp_>original was a sp game in an almost pre-internet era :p
06:28<@Alberth>why does your server aim for cities?
06:29<_dp_>Alberth, because CB is pretty much the only complex game mode invented so far
06:29<@Alberth>even in sp, cities are a mess
06:29<@Alberth>it takes ages to get a track through it without cheating
06:30<_dp_>Alberth, that's realism :p
06:30<@Alberth>sure, and I am fine with it
06:30<_dp_>besides in openttd tracks aren't good for city growth so it's even more reason for it
06:31<_dp_>but authorities are stupid, you can build an awesome road layout for city and it still hates you
06:31<@Alberth>industries are missing some capability or so?
06:32<@Alberth>authorities take a "see then believe" assumption :p
06:33<_dp_>Alberth, nah, just stupid :p planting trees and active stations is not much of a help for city
06:34<@Alberth>wirthout moving into simcity, I can see designers wanted something simple fitting in the game
06:35<@Alberth>I usually deal with authorities by switching to some other area, and return in a decade
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: the most notable thing about these akasha pillars are the user ratings below :p
06:36<_dp_>Alberth, you can't switch to some other area in CB if that's your town that hates you :p
06:36<@Alberth>CB really doesn't fit well at all
06:36<@Alberth>yet everybody jumps at it
06:37<_dp_>well, clearly ttd wasn't even designed for goal games
06:37<_dp_>but it manages fine
06:37<@Alberth>I think up to a few years back, people made their own goals
06:37<@Alberth>and that may have happened all the time
06:38<_dp_>btw wasn't original game considered to be an economic sim?
06:38<_dp_>dunno what it's designers smoked but I fail to understand that xD
06:38<@Alberth>think it is
06:38<@Alberth>you see stocks playing a much bigger role in other train transport games
06:38<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: it has money, and you can make more of it. how is that not an economic sim?
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06:39<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, for me, stocks were always the worst part of railroad tycoon
06:39<@Alberth>chineese students learn it by playing openttd :p
06:40<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, and minecraft has minecarts, does that make it a transport simulator?
06:40<@Alberth>likely because early american train companies were small and heavily into stocks
06:41<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: i thought the point of minecraft was to build rollercoasters?
06:41<@Alberth>or logic circuits
06:42<andythenorth>railroad tycoon 3, the stock market *was* the game
06:42<andythenorth>it was awesome
06:42<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, if so that's pretty dull rollercoasters, you can't even go upside down :p
06:42<andythenorth>the trains were completely automated
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: i have heard of people who play GTA V with their kids, following all the traffic laws and stuff :p
06:44<andythenorth>so ottd is a bit lost eh
06:44<@Alberth>exploded in all directions? :)
06:45<andythenorth>no Rubidium :)
06:45<andythenorth>no-one in charge
06:45<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, there are all kinds of crazy people but I don't think gta was even advertised as a law-friendly game
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>err, obviously not. :p
06:46<Eddi|zuHause>but the fun part about open-world games is: you can ignore the parts that don't interest you and make your own game within the game
06:48<_dp_>sure that's exactly what goal servers do ;)
06:48<_dp_>but you don't call openttd an rts
06:49<_dp_>yet ttd devs called it economy sim for some reason :p
06:52<milek7>i don't think ttd is simulator of anything, just game ;p
06:52*andythenorth wonders
06:52<andythenorth>how about blanket policy: reject all patches?
06:53<@Alberth>how would you ever get new devs?
06:54<@Alberth>not to mention large game features
06:54<andythenorth>not sure, thinking
06:55<andythenorth>the whole patching culture is very transactional
06:55<andythenorth>it doesn’t really seem to work in most projects I see it
06:55<andythenorth>it’s without conversation
06:55<andythenorth>it’s not collaborative
06:55<andythenorth>it’s not social
06:55<@Alberth>it assumes alignment on intentions
06:55<andythenorth>it’s very over-the-fence
06:55<andythenorth>and it creates a lot of hostility
06:55<andythenorth>needlessly afaict
06:56<@Alberth>in tightly coupled dev-groups, it works
06:56<andythenorth>that assumes at least (1) group (2) tight coupling :)
06:56<@Alberth>but it assumes everybody does his/her part
06:56<andythenorth>to use terrible metaphors
06:56<@Alberth>it does make such assumptions indeed
06:56<andythenorth>if someone came and offered to paint my door blue
06:56<andythenorth>that would be odd
06:57<andythenorth>if they were then offended because I didn’t accept their suggestion
06:57<andythenorth>that would be odder
06:57<andythenorth>and if they turned up with the paint and everything, all paid for, that would be odd too
06:57<andythenorth>it’s a crap metaphor but
06:59<@Alberth>quite close, in a sense
06:59<andythenorth>I don’t think this has helped
06:59<andythenorth>was my idea
06:59<LordAro>andythenorth: like i said, the sooner the move to something with pull requests, the better
07:00<andythenorth>LordAro: I think that improves the mechanic, but still leaves it transactional
07:00<andythenorth>I am +1 btw
07:00<LordAro>what's the issue with transactional?
07:00<andythenorth>only works for limited cases
07:00<@Alberth>somewhat it helps, but it's the reverse idea, we tell what we want
07:00<andythenorth>transactional works for easily verified bug fixes
07:00<@Alberth>which doesn't work, much like they tell us what they want
07:01<andythenorth>I think we should unsticky / close that post
07:01<andythenorth>also people *have* submitted requested patches…and got deafening silence
07:01<@Alberth>that holds for many stickies :p
07:01<andythenorth>so it’s kind of rude
07:01*andythenorth needs a forum mod
07:02*andythenorth goes through the requested
07:02<andythenorth> <- dead since 2012, I would have already closed it, except it’s on the requested list
07:02<andythenorth> <- dead since 2012, I would have already closed it, except it’s on the requested list
07:04<andythenorth>eh done :)
07:05<_dp_>patches work better when there is a good feedback
07:05<_dp_>having a dictator won't hurt either imo
07:05<andythenorth>oh I’m not allowed to edit wiki
07:05<andythenorth>we have nobody who wants to be dictator currently _dp_ :)
07:05<Wolf01>I could be one, but you won't like it
07:06<_dp_>same xD
07:06<FLHerne>Perhaps we need an election to pick a dictator?
07:07<_dp_>dictators usually aren't elected :p
07:07<FLHerne>Have everyone explain their vision of the game, and then force people to choose the least worst
07:08<LordAro>it'd need to be someone who can dedicate the time
07:08<andythenorth>who’s the electorate? :P
07:08<FLHerne>tt-forums, obviously
07:08<andythenorth>I could be BDFL, but *I* wouldn’t like it
07:08<FLHerne>Maybe accept (non-duplicate) votes on simuscape to minimise whining
07:08<andythenorth>I do that all day long for money, with actual paying customers
07:09<andythenorth>there is zero reward doing it in OpenTTD land
07:09<andythenorth>and we lack an obsessive control freak like Linus or Guido or the Dwarf Fortress guy
07:10<andythenorth>LordAro: can you edit wiki?
07:11*andythenorth is bored of being banned from wikiw
07:11<@Alberth>likely protected area
07:11<LordAro>"page has been protected"
07:11<@Alberth>what should be done?
07:11<andythenorth> is done
07:11<andythenorth>needs removed or marked as win
07:13<andythenorth> <- no discussion two years, not dead yet
07:14<andythenorth> <- I rejected that, we don’t need mouse hover on menu items, it’s faff
07:15<@Alberth>6078 seems like a solution
07:16<@Alberth>window is a bit long
07:16<andythenorth>it is eh
07:16<@Alberth>oh, 2 sentences ideas don't belong in the FS tracker
07:17<andythenorth>o_O ?
07:17<@Alberth>"it would be nice to have $random major feature"
07:18<@Alberth>yes, it would
07:18<andythenorth>where it’s obvious and known, it’s kind of junk
07:18<milek7>is there any point in having feature requests without patches on FS?
07:18<andythenorth>milek7: sometimes imho
07:18<andythenorth>they work when they collate the discussion
07:18<andythenorth>not so much for obvious crap
07:19<andythenorth>I folded ‘RVs need to ovetake’ tickets into this one
07:19<andythenorth>and now it actually has some utility
07:19<@Alberth>milek7: for complicated things like re-organizing the windows, you have a lot of discussion to get to a proper proposal
07:19<andythenorth>5 random RV over-taking wishes is no use
07:19<andythenorth>1 ticket with at least listed cases to consider…some use
07:19<@Alberth>I have that wish too
07:19<@Alberth>didn't bother making a ticket for it :p
07:20<andythenorth>Alberth: is “Unify the appearance and position of "goto location" buttons.” in the wiki page
07:20<andythenorth>you’re going to get bored of being a remote-edit bot thb
07:20<andythenorth>tbh *
07:20<@Alberth>it's not done right?
07:21<andythenorth> is in the list, but is rejected
07:21<@Alberth>6078 is about lifetime
07:22<andythenorth>ach sorry
07:22<andythenorth>should be
07:22<@Alberth>we request an impossible request?
07:23<andythenorth>could be reopened
07:23<andythenorth>ship the text in the binary
07:23<andythenorth>totally plausible
07:23<andythenorth>but nobody has
07:23<Wolf01>Mmmh, we should talk with adf88 about the combining/converting railtypes, as NRT needs that for road too
07:23<@Alberth>but is it at the wiki?
07:24<@Alberth>I'd be surprised, tbh
07:24<andythenorth>it’s in the wiki
07:24<andythenorth>"Readme/licence/changelog viewer for OpenTTD itself. (likely requires OS/packaging specific code)"
07:24<@Alberth>ok, so it already points at a solution
07:25<andythenorth>either generate the readme, or add some lang strings from contents of readme
07:25<andythenorth>but eh
07:25<@Alberth>5018 is thus a duplicate?
07:25<andythenorth>not sure of the history exactly
07:25<@Alberth>it has less information then the wiki
07:26<andythenorth>in a better bug tracker, we’d create a public saved query listing the ‘wanted’ features
07:26<andythenorth>thus circumventing wiki
07:26<andythenorth>forums -> wiki -> FS -> graveyard
07:27<andythenorth>I’m not crying about this, but I have definitely been in conversations here along lines of “but nobody even submitted anything in the wanted patches list"
07:27<andythenorth>yet they have, and broadly not looked at
07:27<andythenorth>not a winning strategy :)
07:28<@Alberth>5981 I don't know, the wanted feature is not mine. I am willing to take a look, but spending 30 minutes just to see what it does is just stupid
07:28<andythenorth>I have no interest in it
07:28<andythenorth>I am dubious about touching most of the UI
07:28<andythenorth>it’s well established, and mostly not broken
07:28<@Alberth>I don't think anyone is closely watching the junk coming in in the FS
07:29<andythenorth>I dislike watching amateur UI designers at work :(
07:29<andythenorth>and it’s part of my day, and it’s hard, so eh
07:29<andythenorth>day job *
07:29*andythenorth wonders how it is to be a proper programmer and watch andythenorth write code :P
07:30<@Alberth>I think everybody writes in his own way
07:30<@Alberth>the end-result is what counts
07:30<@Alberth>not the program itself
07:31<andythenorth>different for UIs
07:31<andythenorth>anyway no screenshot
07:31<andythenorth>nobody will touch it
07:31<@Alberth>I would do it differently or quicker, but until you have found your current approach failing, I can't explain it
07:32<andythenorth>that wiki page lacks a ‘Windows’ section
07:34<andythenorth>omg, I found this also
07:34<@Alberth>sorry, but I have other things to do, and no rights to give you access
07:34<andythenorth>nah it’s fine :)
07:35*andythenorth should feed children lunch and stuff and stop doing this :P
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07:35<@Alberth>users make the weirdest lists :P
07:35<andythenorth>tempted to rewrite this though eh
07:35<andythenorth>it’s basically not true
07:37<andythenorth>hmm, is the git repo still a sync to an svn master?
07:37<Cadadadry>looking for somebody to tell me some clues about ottd, pls
07:38<Cadadadry>who knows the options included into the station window ?
07:39<@Alberth>you actually want a list?
07:39<@Alberth>I don't think anyone knows that from their head
07:40<@Alberth>perhaps tell what problem you're trying to solve?
07:40<@Alberth>andy, faq development is also protected?
07:41<andythenorth>I am considering editing it, but I don’t want to add alternative facts
07:41<andythenorth>because alternative facts are lies
07:41<@Alberth>some presidents think otherwise :p
07:41<Cadadadry>well, compared to original TTD, there are new settings into station window (like the little "+" switching to "-" and some new buttons as well
07:41<andythenorth>did we switch to git as master yet?
07:41<andythenorth>or svn still?
07:42<@Alberth>svn, afaik
07:42<Cadadadry>wondering what they are made for ?
07:42<andythenorth>I am dubious about all this svn advice in that page
07:42<andythenorth>given that previous ruling method was hg for ~5 years or so
07:42<andythenorth>and now there’s a debate about git
07:42<@Alberth>oh, in yellow at the right, you mean Cadadadry ?
07:43<Cadadadry>yes :)
07:44<@Alberth>how nice, nobody added cdist to the wiki yet :p
07:44<@Alberth>it's cargo-dist
07:45<andythenorth>I have half a page of notes about how cargo-dist actually works
07:45<@Alberth>do you have a station where trains load cargo for more than one station?
07:45<andythenorth>for the wiki
07:45<Cadadadry>is there some kind of detailed handbook about new features ? couldnt find it on wiki
07:45<andythenorth>the current page is lies iirc
07:45<@Alberth>*the same cargo
07:45<andythenorth>cargodist page
07:45<@Alberth>quite non-readable
07:45<Cadadadry>yes I do
07:46<@Alberth>open the station window there and click on the +
07:46<@Alberth>you get 2 lines under it
07:46<@Alberth>each line lists what part of the cargo at the top-line goes to where
07:46<Cadadadry>it proposes me to "reserve" some goods, but how does that work ?
07:47<@Alberth>it's automatic (well, if you enable cargo-dist, that is)
07:47<@Alberth>it means the train currently in the station will get that
07:47<@Alberth>ie "resevred for that train"
07:48<@Alberth>if you stop the trains from going into the stations, you get an amount of cargo build up, distributed to all destinations that you have there
07:48<@Alberth>cargo-dist handles the distribution
07:49<Cadadadry>so, the "+" is only an option for more info ? it's no setting ?
07:49<@Alberth>yes, just more info
07:49<andythenorth>cargodist suffers from two misconceptions generally
07:49<@Alberth>cargo-dist settings are in the settings
07:50<Cadadadry>hmm got to tell you my game is in french, so talking about general settings will be hard :D
07:50<Cadadadry>thx for your help anyway ;)
07:51<Cadadadry>btw I've got a Mumble server if you guys want to talk about the game on the mike
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07:53<Cadadadry>I wish I could share a game with another player, but not a competitive one, just a coop...
07:53<Cadadadry>Anybody interested ?
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07:56<andythenorth>Cadadadry: it’s quite rare that anybody joins an MP game from asking here :)
07:56<andythenorth>you could try Coop though
07:56<Cadadadry>cheers andy :)
07:58<andythenorth>quak ?
08:00<Cadadadry>looks like I'll have to reinstall TS3...
08:00<Cadadadry>AFK 5 min...
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08:09<andythenorth>adf88: are you +/-1 to closing this?
08:09<andythenorth>issue is ancient
08:10<adf88>hi, let me look...
08:12<adf88>while there might be some issue in this area, it wasn't pointed out properly, the argumentation is false
08:12<andythenorth>I should close, or you will? I’m happy to
08:14<adf88>do the honors
08:15<adf88>you're right that "Issue has aged, there is no sign that it's still relevant to anyone. "
08:27<andythenorth>sounds like nonsense to me
08:27<andythenorth>we don’t need this kind of change
08:28<frosch123>it's a code simplification wihtout change
08:28<frosch123>if it is correct, it is good
08:29<andythenorth>I closed it on this basis
08:29<andythenorth>I can reopen
08:30<frosch123>i would disagree, reopen :)
08:30<frosch123>we need more people who can refactor code
08:31<frosch123>i am sure this task got onto my todo list in 2014 and then got burried :)
08:31<@Alberth>juanjo is often right
08:32<Cadadadry>A big thank you to you all coders to have brought back TTD from the grave, and fixed a lot of bugs :)
08:33<Cadadadry>I'm still exploring new content, but got to admit I feel lost :/
08:34<frosch123>no surprise, new user experience is hard :)
08:34<Cadadadry>Does anyone remember "A-train" ?
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08:35<frosch123>i heard about it, but never played it
08:35<Alkel_U3>sure, I used to play that
08:35<andythenorth>testing patches is slow eh :)
08:35<Cadadadry>you must be over 50 now ^^
08:35<frosch123>you can play games at age 10
08:35<Alkel_U3>actually not even close, I've just always been into older games :-)
08:36<Cadadadry>congrats :)
08:36<Alkel_U3>I had to reboot my win98 in tru DOS mode to run it, it wouldn't otherwise
08:38<andythenorth> is worth a look
08:38<andythenorth>distant-join is hard to explain to 7 year olds
08:44<Cadadadry>@andythenorth If find that idea is great (joining distant stations through a button)
08:47<andythenorth>I would do it simpler
08:47<andythenorth>I would invert the current behaviour, and simply show the list of nearby stations always on build
08:47<andythenorth>unless ctrl is used
08:47<andythenorth>works better on touch
08:48<andythenorth>and makes the mechanic more obvious, at the cost of extra clicks
08:49<Cadadadry>yes, that would help managing stations into big cities
08:50<Cadadadry>I'm now on #openttdcoop TS server, but 0 user online :/
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08:57<frosch123>"3390 files, 410k lines of code" <- factorio people seem to love short files
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08:59<andythenorth>ach, which patch am I even testing now ;P
08:59*andythenorth losing count
08:59<frosch123>LordAro: what's your opinion on boost? i have the impression that many people turn their backs on it
09:01<andythenorth>does openttd have a hotkey editor?
09:02<frosch123>no, not sure whether i remember a partial patch for it
09:02<andythenorth>FS someone reporting a crash with it
09:03*andythenorth must be misreading
09:03<Cadadadry>going back to game, cya all and thx for helping ;)
09:04<andythenorth>I set SPACE as a hotkey, OpenTTD crashes on exit
09:05<frosch123>andythenorth: there is hotkeys.cfg
09:05<frosch123>you can edit the hotkeys outside of ottd
09:05<andythenorth>I did that :)
09:07<andythenorth>whatever else the patch does, it cause OpenTTD to crash on exit reliably
09:07<andythenorth>BAD FEATURE
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09:18<FLHerne>Useful idea, though
09:20<andythenorth>so many useful ideas
09:20<andythenorth>they are probably 30:1 on useful implementations
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09:22<andythenorth>maybe 10:1
09:22<andythenorth>there are ~90 patches on FS
09:22<andythenorth>probably 10 are valid
09:23<Wolf01>Today is a BAD day, I don't feel well (because of the weather change), a friend's HDD reached 161°C and died :|
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>how did he manage that?
09:25<Wolf01>Could be SMART failure to report a wrong temp
09:25<Alkel_U3>is that still _that_ friend?
09:25<Wolf01>No, another one
09:25<Wolf01>I melted one HDD too, tbh
09:26<Wolf01>The one fill with holiday and family photos
09:26<Alkel_U3>"Data you don't have at least at two places are data you don't care about." --old wisdom
09:27<Alkel_U3>I learned it the hard way, too :(
09:27<Wolf01>I have 3 backups now
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>that's why i invested into 3 HDDs to make a RAID5
09:27<Wolf01>Still a problem if the entire machine gets destroyed
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>sure, but then i probably have bigger problems
09:28<Wolf01>I have data in pc which backups in nas, which backups again the most important data to another separate HDD
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>you should have backups in another location, in that case
09:29<Wolf01>Yup, mine are in 2 different and distant rooms of the house
09:29<Wolf01>Problem is when... I get flooded :E
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>at work we have a raid10 across different houses
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>or raid15, not sure
09:31<Wolf01>I read "we have a radio across different houses"
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>you are too 1337 for this world
09:32<Wolf01>I'm you, but italian
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09:44<andythenorth>frosch123: ever tried writing an OpenTTD roadmap? o_O
09:44*andythenorth is obliged to write annual product roadmaps :|
09:46<Wolf01>We had roadmaps up to 1.3 iirc, I don't know if they were respected btw
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>they kinda devolved into wishlists
09:50<frosch123>easy: 1. make c++11 capable farm, 2a. port to harfbuzz, 2b. port to sdl2, 2c. replace need for custom containers with c++11 emplace stuff, 3b. add os cursor support, 4b add font gui, 3c replace global pools with something that allows independent instances of pools, 4c make newgrf stuff run independent instances, 5c1 make newgrf preview, 5c2 run independen newgrf callbacks in paralle, 2d split drawing loop into parts accessing game data and
09:50<frosch123>stuff accessing sprites with a pipeline inbetween, 3d make drawing multi-threaded
09:51<frosch123>how much of that is on *any* other roadmap? :p
09:51<andythenorth>not one I’ve seen
09:51<frosch123>see, that's the problem, the trick is to align intentions
09:51<andythenorth>isn’t it
09:51<LordAro>frosch123: boost is... tricky. lots of very nice things in it, but it's a very big dependency
09:51<frosch123>at least we seem to have 3 people interested in c++11 stuff, but that still doesn't tell whether they will disagree in details :)
09:52<andythenorth>I am quite prepared to keep reading FS, testing patches, and saying no to people
09:52<LordAro>i'm of the opinion that you need to go "all in" with it or not at all
09:52<andythenorth>but the actual goals vary depending who is in this channel at the time :P
09:52<andythenorth>and there’s no BDFL or active project leader
09:52<LordAro>and i think it'd be quite tricky to go "all in" with it in ottd's current state
09:52<frosch123>LordAro: i was not asking in ottd context
09:53<andythenorth>the goals here are pretty good
09:53<LordAro>frosch123: do let me know if there's anything i can help with wrt compile farm/c++11/libraries tho
09:53<frosch123>i just read fff, and found reaccuring themes from other sourcers
09:53<LordAro>frosch123: ah yeah
09:53<andythenorth>but “improve the user interface” leaves a gap as wide as a barn door for patchers
09:53<LordAro>frosch123: yeah, that fff echoed my opinion of it quite we
09:55<frosch123>andythenorth: sometimes i think i am too old. about everything has been suggested and discussed before, i have settled my opinion on most, and i am tired of repeating the arguments :)
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09:57<frosch123>LordAro: btw. compile farm for linux and osx seems to be about done, i have no information on the status for win
09:57<andythenorth>I was reading a python module ticket edit war this week
09:58<andythenorth>prevailing rule is, module maintainer’s word is law, unless Guido over-rides them
09:58<andythenorth>or they piss off enough people and rage quit
09:59<Wolf01>Roadmap for 1.8: improve the game
09:59<Wolf01>...fix bugs, add new bugs, feature new features
09:59<andythenorth>there’s nobody who can be BDFL
10:00<andythenorth>maybe we split up areas of concern, and find somebody whose word is law for each
10:00<andythenorth>e.g. I am massively -1 to adding any further complexity to UI
10:00<andythenorth>and mostly -1 to changing anything that is well established, without very good reason
10:00<Wolf01>Remove the UI?
10:00<frosch123>andythenorth: anyway, ottd has become very feature driven, in my imagination it was more refactoring driven in the past; i prefer the latter
10:01<andythenorth>that is interesting
10:01<frosch123>but well, may also be false memories :)
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>c++ move, gui rewrite, "new map array", ...
10:02<frosch123>competing pool rewrites :)
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>lots of refactoring going on, with the intention to make more features
10:02<andythenorth>for me, the best commits are the very small UI tweaks
10:02<andythenorth>the most interesting problems are the extension of the content APIs
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure there is lots of refactoring to be found in cirdans branch
10:03<andythenorth>refactoring I can’t play, I’m not a good enough programmer :P
10:05<@peter1138>step 1) play minecraft
10:05<Wolf01>andythenorth: refactoring is like with lego, you do and undo trying to keep the functions working until you are satisfied
10:07<andythenorth>I refactor newgrf continuously
10:07<andythenorth>but not so much C++ :P
10:10<andythenorth>frosch123: w.r.t actually doing something, not just words :)
10:10<andythenorth>how much of that is nice-to-have ponies?
10:14<LordAro>frosch123: about done?
10:18<frosch123>LordAro: <- andy confirmed the osx binaries working
10:19<andythenorth>so this farm is reprocible, e.g. I could built it locally?
10:19<andythenorth>reproducible *
10:20<frosch123>the win part won't :)
10:20*andythenorth thinking about patch packs etc
10:20<frosch123>frosch123: i wondered whether we should jgrpp on frontpage
10:20<frosch123>download A for stability, download B for features
10:21<andythenorth>I think officially linked patchpacks is a thing
10:21<frosch123>it all depends on how easy LordAro's new site is to use
10:21<andythenorth>I think the description…could use work :P
10:21<frosch123>initially i hoped gitlab would solve it :)
10:21<andythenorth>I dispute that version A lacks features
10:21<andythenorth>download B for dubious features :P
10:22<frosch123>andythenorth: well, i am all fine with trunk doing refactoring, and someone else adding all the features
10:22<andythenorth>+0.5 :P
10:23<andythenorth>I would be happier with trunk refactoring AND adding more content APIs
10:24<frosch123>i am fine with newgrf, but we have noone interested in ai/gs
10:25<frosch123>about my only input in ai/gs was kicking people when they named stuff differently in different places
10:26<andythenorth>did TB do NoGo?
10:26<andythenorth>one day it just...appeared
10:26<frosch123>tb did the base of both noai and nogo
10:26<frosch123>yexo did the details of noai
10:27<andythenorth>Zuu is awol? o_O
10:27<frosch123>and zuu/albert/rb did the details of nogo
10:28<andythenorth>so you can do core and newgrf
10:28<andythenorth>I’ll just say ‘no’ to everything about UI, so I don’t even need commit rights to be maintainer
10:28<andythenorth>alberth can review your stuff
10:28<andythenorth>adf8* has his own thing going
10:28<andythenorth>and Eddi|zuHause can be the official maintainer of the platonic ideal spec :)
10:29<andythenorth>all neat and tidy, solved
10:29<frosch123>well, i miss smatz :)
10:29<andythenorth>I miss dalestan :P
10:29<andythenorth>oh I missed peter1138
10:30<andythenorth>peter1138 can maintain a list of random patches that he declares not good enough :)
10:30<andythenorth>whilst also asking us why we make everything so complicated
10:30<andythenorth>I’m 99% certain I employ a clone of peter1138
10:33<@peter1138>no use employing me
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10:39<Eddi|zuHause>no use employing me either, but i found someone who does :p
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11:21<FrenkyPohodar>Hello. Would anyone be able to help with the openttd server? On win7 I released it as a didikate server, the ports are redirected and open. the rver seems to be running but I'm not able to connect to it, it seems like it's on-line it's server Cz / SK_Budujeme_mesta / City_Buildings, 5000pop (1921-2050) I got something wrong, but what? Thank you in advance for your advice and help.
11:22<frosch123> <- it's listed there
11:22<frosch123>so the problem is with the client
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12:43<andythenorth>is it just me?
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12:50<Wolf01>I can't understand for how much time I slept, is it friday yet?
12:52<andythenorth>so is ‘rage’ the natural destiny of all people who handle feature requests? o_O
12:56<Wolf01>You are taking the tasks too much seriously
12:57<andythenorth>would you go for more lulz?
12:58<@peter1138>didikate? heh
12:59<andythenorth>is ‘so what’ a valid response here?
13:03<andythenorth>things not a goal #238: pissing around with the vehicle payments
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13:05<@Alberth>imho he has somewhat of a point, trouble is that changing the payment alone is likely to cause havoc in other areas
13:06<@Alberth>ideally you'd fix it by changing the vehicle speed, I think
13:06<_dp_>that patch does something weird, that shouldn't be required to just change profit formula
13:06<@peter1138>yeah but that causes havoc in other areas
13:06<@Alberth>that might break a lot of newgrfs?
13:07<@peter1138>the 28/32 pixel length difference is related
13:07<@Alberth>like "all newgrf"s :p
13:07<@peter1138>if you fix the speed issue, 28 becomes the correct length after all
13:07<@Alberth>yeah, you'd want that fixed too then
13:07<@peter1138>so every set that uses 32 would be messed up
13:07<@peter1138>dbsetxl would be fine
13:07<@peter1138>and that's about it :p
13:08<@Alberth>haha :)
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13:09<frosch123>peter1138: trains are 29 :p
13:09<_dp_>Alberth, why change vehicle speeds? that won't help with manhattan distance payment
13:09<@peter1138>i thought it might be one of the two
13:09<@peter1138>either way :p
13:09*andythenorth is looking for something to close, to get to 350 FS
13:09<andythenorth>also…trying to learn what the goals are :P
13:09<andythenorth>fools errand
13:10<frosch123>andythenorth: i think the goal was to have fun
13:10<_dp_>it may make sense to change diagonal lenght to match euclidean but it still does nothing wrt payment "fairness"
13:12<@peter1138>i don't understand the problem
13:12<@peter1138>"earning capacity increased" for trains?
13:12<@peter1138>isn't it increased for trains, planes and ships?
13:12<@peter1138>RVs lose out i guess
13:12<@peter1138>and then surely "that's just how it is"
13:12<_dp_>you either use road metric aka manhattan which breaks trains or use train/plane distance which is not fair for rvs
13:13<andythenorth>peter1138: it is how it is
13:13<andythenorth>close :P
13:13*andythenorth learning about newgrf airports
13:14<@peter1138>are they a thing?
13:14<frosch123>andythenorth: i think there was a majority for user-built airports
13:14<andythenorth>weren’t there multiple failed patches, with extra drama?
13:15<andythenorth>I think I missed it
13:15<andythenorth>apparently We Are All Very Bad People, it’s somewhere on the internet
13:15*peter1138 ponders razing this village
13:15<@peter1138>ah yes
13:15<@peter1138>we are
13:15<andythenorth>anyway, this one actually pisses me off
13:15<@peter1138>for some reason
13:16<andythenorth>there’s all this airport bollocks in the game
13:16<frosch123>andythenorth: <- before i quit forums, i think there was a more modern patch for that
13:16<andythenorth>how the hell does that ever work?
13:16<andythenorth>newgrf state machines?
13:17<frosch123>no, either rv logic or pbs logic
13:17<@peter1138>what's wrong with more than one airport in a town?
13:17<frosch123>well, or ship logic :p
13:17<andythenorth>peter1138: some kind of bullshit in MP with griefing
13:17<andythenorth>FS is making me wish MP would just go away
13:18<andythenorth>Other People are A Problem
13:18<andythenorth>or he’s chosen bad AIs
13:18<andythenorth>that spam towns with airports
13:18<andythenorth>like err…choose a different AI?
13:18<andythenorth>"Oh noes there must be a setting"
13:18*andythenorth grumbles
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13:22<@peter1138>oops just spent 34 xp levels enchanting something with no effect :(
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13:23<andythenorth>I’m not really pissed off at Milsa :P
13:23<andythenorth>I’m pissed off with all the airport bollocks :)
13:23<andythenorth>limits, noise levels, faceted shit
13:23<andythenorth>town var: number of airports
13:24<andythenorth>airport or town cb: player tries to construct airport
13:24<andythenorth>airport var: owner company
13:24<andythenorth>return: allow, disallow
13:24<andythenorth>job done
13:24<andythenorth>delete: limits per town, noise limit
13:24<andythenorth>[message ends]
13:25<_dp_>andythenorth, and noone will ever use that coz newgrf
13:25<andythenorth>but all the feature requests can be closed
13:25<_dp_>andythenorth, won't stop people from opening new ones :p
13:25<andythenorth>that’s fine
13:25<andythenorth>the game isn’t to stop feature requests
13:26<andythenorth>the game is to close them having already won
13:26<andythenorth>game / metagame
13:26<_dp_>did I mention including newgrfs in savegame already?
13:27<andythenorth>“anticipating user need”, can do consulting on that at €1000/day
13:27<andythenorth>newgrfs can’t be included in savegame for [reasons]
13:27<andythenorth>copyright bollocks probably
13:27<andythenorth>yeah, no redistribution of some people’s grfs
13:28<frosch123>you can certainly streamline the load process
13:28<andythenorth>I never submit crash reports because I always have non-bananas grfs :P
13:28<frosch123>like "you can't load this!" -> "would you like to download missing stuff?"
13:28<_dp_>well, I own my negrfs so I'd like my servers to include them...
13:29<frosch123>_dp_: include 256mb of 32bpp sprites in the samegame? :p
13:29<_dp_>Problem with negrfs currents is that it's never worth to use them just for configuration
13:29<andythenorth>this is ‘bug in newgrfs’?
13:29<_dp_>frosch123, I don't have sprites in newgrfs, just some configuration bullshit :p
13:29<andythenorth>newgrf planes shouldn’t use range, it’s a bug
13:31<_dp_>btw, we currently do some server-side limiting on airports
13:31<_dp_>it's max airports per company though, not per town
13:32<frosch123>is there a difference between limiting airports and limitnig aircraft?
13:32<_dp_>frosch123, ...
13:32<andythenorth>on the face of it…yes...?
13:32<frosch123>wrt. restricting gameplay
13:33<_dp_>we have 5 airport limit and 100 aircrafts
13:33<frosch123>hmm, i guess it depends on the map scaling
13:33<andythenorth>can I actually close a FS saying aircraft range is a bug?
13:33<ST2>we merged this: to apply some limitations
13:33<ST2>maybe it's ugly.. but works xD
13:33<frosch123>on a 1Mx1M map, you can have 10k planes with just 2 airports
13:34<andythenorth>not all newgrf additions have been wise
13:34<frosch123>like nrt :)
13:34<andythenorth>not added yet :P
13:35*andythenorth kills the kittens and closes the FS
13:35<_dp_>limiting number of airports limits amount of resources that can be acquired with them (unlike limiting planes)
13:36<frosch123>i would expect the reverse
13:36<_dp_>in particular valuables, with 5 airports you can only connect 5 banks, not every bank on the map and cover town val requirements for eternity
13:37<andythenorth>why not just disable planes?
13:37<frosch123>ah, it's about "deliver some" goals
13:37<frosch123>true, you can build a single plane which circles through 50 airports
13:37<andythenorth>there’s GS for the goals?
13:38<frosch123>i remember andy delivering farm supplies by plane
13:38<andythenorth>ach, GS can’t have callbacks andythenorth is an idiot again :(
13:38<frosch123>so i welcome the airport limit :)
13:38<andythenorth>frosch123: tractors by plane
13:38<andythenorth>and chainsaws
13:39<frosch123>andythenorth: anyway, tile-based airports would solve everything
13:39<frosch123>you can make the taxiway and runway shared like roads
13:39<frosch123>and have each company have their terminal
13:39<andythenorth>with player owned terminals?
13:39<_dp_>I prefer to balance planes instead of disabling them, more variety is good, adds more options for the game tactics
13:40<andythenorth>frosch123: that’s crazy talk :P
13:40<frosch123>andythenorth: only the terminal has a catchment area
13:40<andythenorth>is there actually a viable implementation? o_O
13:40<frosch123>andythenorth: why, i had a patch against r6907
13:40<andythenorth>only 15k revisions old
13:40<andythenorth>21k actually
13:40<frosch123>there have been at least 2 similar attemps on the forums
13:41<frosch123>andythenorth: also, all the plane limit stuff is to prevent them being overpowered; but that completely ruins the fun in using them
13:41<andythenorth>doesn’t it
13:42<_dp_>having a terminal wouldn't hurt train/rv stations either to solve all that joining-catchement nonsense
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13:42<andythenorth>so we have
13:42<andythenorth>(1) town limit of airport by count
13:42<andythenorth>(2) town limit by noise
13:42<andythenorth>(3) irritating date restrictions on airport construction
13:42<andythenorth>(4) plane range
13:42<andythenorth>(5) plane speed factor
13:42<andythenorth>and still planes aren’t fixed?
13:42<andythenorth>what did we learn?
13:43<frosch123>(6) infra cost
13:43<andythenorth>oh that too
13:43<_dp_>andythenorth, not enough settings :p
13:44<_dp_>from economy viewpoint only plane speed matters and even 1/4 is not enough to nerf planes
13:45<@peter1138>"even 1/4" 1/4 is the standard
13:45<andythenorth>I don’t understand this balancing bollocks?
13:45<andythenorth>is balancing a goal?
13:45<@peter1138>apparently some people think the game is not about making a pretty railway layout :p
13:45<frosch123>not for me :)
13:45<_dp_>andythenorth, it's a goal for goal servers :p
13:45<andythenorth>if all transport types must balance, wtf do we bother having all these transport types?
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27911 /trunk/src/lang (hebrew.txt korean.txt) (2017-09-02 19:45:39 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<andythenorth>it’s fricking stupid
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean: 1 change by telk5093
13:45<@DorpsGek>hebrew: 4 changes by dnd_man
13:46<andythenorth>frosch123: can I make it official? Balancing is not a goal?
13:46<frosch123>it's a rewording of "do not change the game mechanics", right?
13:47<andythenorth>town growth, ratings, etc?
13:47<_dp_>just add "mp is not a goal" :p
13:47<andythenorth>original industry production, economy
13:47<andythenorth>how does minecraft do goal servers?
13:48<_dp_>andythenorth, command blocks
13:48<_dp_>and adventure mode or whatever is it called
13:48<andythenorth>can’t find any goal servers for minecraft so far
13:49<_dp_>andythenorth, idk about "goal" goal, put there are plenty of competitive ones
13:49<_dp_>like missile wars
13:51<andythenorth>frosch123: if I say it a few times, it becomes true?
13:51<_dp_>oh, there is also builtin scoreboard in minecraft
13:52<_dp_>andythenorth, isn't NRT changing game mechanics btw? ;)
13:52<andythenorth>[wavey hands]
13:52<andythenorth>depends if we include the new icon for light rail :P
13:53<andythenorth>nothing changes though
13:53<_dp_>andythenorth, how about roads that towns can't grow on?
13:53<andythenorth>how about them? :)
13:53<andythenorth>sounds like an idea
13:54<andythenorth>frosch123: do I need to read all 14 pages? o_O
13:54<_dp_>andythenorth, well, in current game mechanics town can grow on any road :p
13:54<andythenorth>frosch123: actually p14 seems to be enough
13:54<frosch123>andythenorth: maybe you can extract what people think about balancing
13:54<andythenorth>TL;DR people are wrong?
13:54<frosch123>by comparing what was suggested 10 years ago with what is suggested today
13:55<andythenorth>I’ll read it
13:55<andythenorth>unfortunately, like a politician, I already have my conclusion :(
13:55<andythenorth>so I’ll just cherry pick evidence
13:56<andythenorth>balancing is nonsense, newgrf can solve most problems, end of message
13:56*andythenorth reading
13:56<frosch123>too bad the pdf is not accessible
13:56<andythenorth>I probably shouldn’t post all my notes here as I go eh :P
13:56<_dp_>newgrfs are such a huge problem by themselves they hardly can solve anything :p
13:57<andythenorth>I don’t think you can sustain that argument _dp_ :)
13:58<_dp_>how many people was it who loaded any grf compared to game downloads? :p
14:00<andythenorth>propose an alternative to modifying the game with content?
14:00<andythenorth>every single foamer has to submit a patch to get their special train in the game?
14:00<andythenorth>and we have a setting for every single one?
14:00<andythenorth>frosch123: see, sense
14:01<frosch123>can we organise a shooting between _dp_, andy, pikka and dalestan?
14:02<andythenorth>frosch123: can add richk67 to team _dp_
14:03<frosch123>i do not know dalestan's opinion on aircraft range
14:03<frosch123>dalestan coded planeset, so he probably would have one
14:03<andythenorth>“don’t add newgrf features that break orders”?
14:03<andythenorth>like the refit cb also
14:04<frosch123>probably "newgrf parameter: let the user pick their destiny"
14:05<andythenorth>reading this thread is painful :(
14:05<andythenorth>it’s like a wall of wrong :(
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14:06<andythenorth>“Well, I'd say the easiest solution to that problem is to…” is always followed by
14:07<andythenorth>“…add a boatload more complexity to post-hoc make my crap pet idea work"
14:07<andythenorth>The easiest solution would be to Drop The Crap Idea
14:07<andythenorth>where’s V453000 when he’s needed?
14:07<andythenorth>@summon V453000
14:07<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: out of chalk
14:09<andythenorth>DJ Nekkid was doing really well here
14:09<andythenorth>until ‘subways’
14:10<frosch123>how does subways make it into the balance topic?
14:11<andythenorth>the whole thing is endless ponies
14:11<frosch123>yep :)
14:11<frosch123>that's why i linked it :p
14:11<andythenorth>I would like to print this out very large, and frame it
14:11<andythenorth>then take a picture of it
14:11<andythenorth>and post the picture at the top of every single feature request page
14:12<_dp_>at this point I feel and hope that modding machinky will be a lot more easier than bothering with openttd
14:13<frosch123>depends how many bugs it copies from ottd
14:13<frosch123>factorio managed to copy quite a number
14:14<@Alberth>modding is easy, getting agreement between all players is the puzzle :p
14:15<andythenorth>content-based modding eliminates the need for agreement
14:17<andythenorth>Wolf01: o_O ?
14:18<andythenorth>idiocy or elegant troll?
14:19<frosch123>the follow-up post takes it serious
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14:21<andythenorth>meanwhile *
14:21<andythenorth>in or out?
14:23<frosch123>too many graphic issues
14:23<frosch123>it's like crossing bridges
14:24<frosch123>implementing is easy, but it will glitch like hell
14:24<andythenorth>there’s a real one being planned in Norway, but eh
14:29<andythenorth>I really like this idea
14:29<andythenorth>but I think it’s much more complex than it sounds
14:30<andythenorth>also it could be done in newgrf, but only if magic bulldozer is enabled
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14:35<andythenorth>Wolf01: I love the style of engine on this
14:35<andythenorth>single stud pistons
14:37<andythenorth>FFS, the 7 year old’s favourite thing to do in the game is grow cities :(
14:37<andythenorth>it’s like a plague
14:38<frosch123>the most exciting thing for me at that age was the concorde
14:39<_dp_>how is 2445 different from just funding?
14:40<frosch123>and the biggest disappointment was that the airports were the bottleneck
14:40<frosch123>_dp_: 2445 limits it to an area, like 128x128, which is significant when playing on 1Mx1M map
14:41<andythenorth>it’s a great idea
14:41<andythenorth>I’m going to add it to FIRS
14:43<_dp_>frosch123, ah, yeah, somewhat interesting
14:43<_dp_>that fail chance is no go though for competitive servers
14:44<_dp_>or should I say for competitive play
14:44<andythenorth>frosch123: build a survey camp industry (very cheap)
14:44<_dp_>since people compete on vanilla servers all the time
14:44<andythenorth>then force primaries to locate near that if there is one on the map
14:45<andythenorth>survey camp counts industries, and closes once a new primary has been built
14:45<frosch123>andythenorth: make the camp close after 6 months
14:45<andythenorth>(a) it’s a terrible BAD FEATURE
14:45<andythenorth>(b) I can’t count all the industries, unless maybe I bitstuff enough
14:45<andythenorth>(c) it’s annoying having to wait for closure :P
14:45<frosch123>(d) users won't understand it
14:45<andythenorth>(e) waste of time
14:47<andythenorth>strikes me that doing it in game would work like:
14:47<andythenorth>1. select prospect
14:47<andythenorth>2. click on a tile
14:47<andythenorth>3. openttd tries to build within n tiles of that x,y
14:48<frosch123>or a) select area b) spawn in area with probability depending on area size
14:49<frosch123>though that's likely hard to explain
14:49<andythenorth>seems like TMFTLB
14:50<andythenorth>but it is annoying
14:50<andythenorth>I like prospecting, but not so much on a large map
14:50<andythenorth>it works great on 256x256 or smaller
14:50<frosch123>well, i only used prospecing after connecting everything
14:50<frosch123>so it's behaviour is quite fine
14:50<frosch123>it just fails on stupid sized maps, but they fail anyway
14:51<frosch123>it's just a mechanism to make the game continue
14:51<frosch123>not to play industry giant
14:51<andythenorth>I’m closing
14:52<andythenorth>it _could_ be at least trialled in newgrf if wanted
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15:02<y2000rtc>Hi there, it's me Zdenek again. I don't want to waste your time. I would like to ask you for help. I play TTD (OpenTTD) since when I was child and right now I want to edit two grf files. 1) edit grf of rail for to have rail with different speed but with the same graphics. Old one. There is many graphics of rails due to speed. I want to use different speed but with the same design.
15:02<y2000rtc>What do you say for that. Someone who will find any time for me?
15:05<Alkel_U3>if there is no source available, you'll likely need to run that grf through grfcodec to get NFO and learn to read and edit that.
15:06<Alkel_U3>better yet, try contacting the author of that grf
15:06<@Alberth>there are two approaches, learn NML, and make a grf yourself, or decompile a grf to NFO, change the graphics, and re-assemble (and be sure to change the grfid as well toa avoid clashes)
15:07<y2000rtc>I already tried to contact author. Without success. :(((
15:07<y2000rtc>Ok Alkel, where and how to make steps which you mentioned please?
15:07<@Alberth>former is by far the cleanest
15:07<Alkel_U3>maybe it would be easier to just learn NML and code it from scratch, NFO is very not human-friendly :-) (basically hex editing)
15:07<andythenorth>fork Termite
15:08<andythenorth>Termite uses baseset graphics for RAIL
15:08<andythenorth>and ELRL
15:08<andythenorth>fork Termite, add more railtypes, but with speed limits
15:08<andythenorth>has to be built with Make though
15:08<andythenorth>y2000rtc: ^^^^
15:09<y2000rtc>Gentlemen, I'm really novice. So, I have to download some tool for decompiling of GRF file. After that I have to edit something and last step is to compile again.
15:09<andythenorth>that is one route
15:09<andythenorth>or find a grf that has src, and clone it
15:09<y2000rtc>fork Termite is what?
15:09<andythenorth>edit the src, compile it
15:09<y2000rtc>Any SW?
15:09<andythenorth>‘fork’ just means ‘clone it and make your own version'
15:10<andythenorth>Termite uses nml, which is easier than nfo
15:10<Wolf01>We really need to do a web interface to build (simple) grfs...
15:10<andythenorth>I posted in forums about it
15:10<andythenorth>I think it’s a Terrible Idea
15:10<frosch123>Wolf01: people do not want simple grfs, they want to modify existing complex grfs
15:11<y2000rtc>Ok, how to use Termite? Download it and?
15:11<y2000rtc>Sorry for my questions but I don't have any practice with that.
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15:13<Alkel_U3>well, I'd say read through this
15:13<andythenorth>y2000rtc: what operating system do you have?
15:14<y2000rtc>Win7 but if is necessary I can make VM.
15:15<andythenorth>most grfs use some extra build tools that work on Windows, but are hard to get setup
15:15<andythenorth>generally they work out the box on Linux, and mostly on OS X
15:15<y2000rtc>I can try it use on Win7, XP, ...
15:16*andythenorth wonders if there’s a pure nml railtype grf
15:16<andythenorth>ah, the example one
15:16<frosch123>andythenorth: the postprocessor product is posted on bundles
15:16<frosch123>*preprocessor output
15:16<andythenorth>it is
15:17<andythenorth>y2000rtc: how much do you want to learn this? o-O
15:17<andythenorth>hmm 346 FS left
15:18<y2000rtc>I have two goals. First one to edit easiest way grf for to have what I need and second one is to learn really a lot for to understand.
15:19<andythenorth>ok I would suggest following agenda y2000rtc :)
15:19<andythenorth>1. get nml compiler
15:19<andythenorth>2. get source code for an existing grf (e.g. Termite, or nml example railtypes grf)
15:19<andythenorth>3. check you can compile existing grf
15:19<andythenorth>4. start editing to learn
15:20<andythenorth>5. when you’ve learnt a bit, try and make the grf you want, by copy-paste from one of the existing, throwing out what you don’t need, adding what you want
15:20<y2000rtc>1. where to get nml compiler sir?
15:20<andythenorth>good 1
15:20<andythenorth>good question *
15:21<frosch123> explains it
15:21<y2000rtc>2. is it possible to use only grf file without source code?
15:21<@Alberth> <-- it has download link
15:21<andythenorth>for 2. only if you want to learn nfo (hex code)
15:22<andythenorth>you likely don't
15:22<@Alberth>"use" as in play a game with it?
15:22<andythenorth>this is well-laid out nfo
15:23<@Alberth>see the bottom of the tutorial page for a comparison between NML and NFO
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15:24<@Alberth>I would suggest you select the NML column for future use :)
15:25<andythenorth>Alberth: does the UI have methods to resize windows when viewport changes size? o_O
15:26<@Alberth>I think so
15:26<@Alberth>or at least move them back into view
15:26<andythenorth>so valid task?
15:27<@Alberth>not sure, Rb claims it's not
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15:28<@Alberth>maybe the window is not very resizable or so
15:28<@Alberth>don't understand why Rb says that
15:29<andythenorth>he was just adjusting status
15:30<@Alberth>yes, because he doesn't see it as a bug
15:30<andythenorth>industry windows are moved when I resize viewport
15:30<@Alberth>I don't know why
15:30<andythenorth>so the methods exist
15:31<andythenorth>newgrf window neither
15:31<@Alberth>it's just a function that walks through the window-stack :)
15:31<@Alberth>not all windows resize very well
15:32<@Alberth>maybe they stay centered?
15:32<andythenorth>think they do
15:33<@Alberth>if they do, then that technically indeed counts as not a bug
15:33<@Alberth>since they are properly centered
15:33<@Alberth>just not in a useful way :p
15:33<andythenorth>I’ve attached this conversation :P
15:33<andythenorth>there’s nothing else I can do with that
15:33<@Alberth>from UX pov, it counts as bug :p
15:33<andythenorth>can’t close
15:34<andythenorth>can’t fix :P
15:34<@Alberth>not easily, likely
15:34<andythenorth>not convinced that supporting resize-to-smaller is a big thing
15:34<andythenorth>especially at game start
15:35<@Alberth>I sometimes do resize the window while playing, to make room for another window
15:36<@Alberth>but in general, I agree
15:36<andythenorth>has to stay open?
15:36<@Alberth>I wasn't going to fix it, so I don't care either way
15:37<y2000rtc>Thank you guys. Is not really easy to do it. Termite is about metro tracks. I want to have different rails of speed and the same graphics.
15:38<frosch123>y2000rtc: you can also assign speed limits via orders
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15:38<@Alberth>I already run short on time for #6053 with all the things I am doing
15:38<@Alberth>Termite is train tracks, afaik
15:38<y2000rtc>via orders? Please any details?
15:38<@Alberth>maybe it has tram tracks too?
15:39<y2000rtc>I want that only for normal railways.
15:39<frosch123> <- y2000rtc: see the "change speed limit" button?
15:39*andythenorth checks termite
15:41<y2000rtc>Ok, clear. What I want to do is to make a railway from station to station with different rails of speed. Arround station to go 40 km/h for example, after that 80 km/h and arround depo 20 km/h.
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15:42<y2000rtc>I already have GRF file with that but for these speeds are used different designs of rails and I would like to use the same design. :)
15:44<andythenorth>which grf is it?
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15:55<y2000rtc>It is called NuTracks
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>that's really simple then, you grab the source of nutracks, and remove the parts that define how the rails look
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16:09<andythenorth>frosch123: I made it to page 10 of celestar thread :P
16:10<frosch123>impressive :)
16:10<frosch123>how does it compare to fs?
16:11*andythenorth wonders
16:11<andythenorth>this appears to pre-date newgrf industries, cargos, railtypes
16:11<andythenorth>that can’t be right
16:11<andythenorth>I started FIRS in 2008
16:11<frosch123>it's parallel
16:12<frosch123>industry cargos were implemented in ottd in 2007
16:12<andythenorth>more wisdom
16:12<andythenorth>loads of stuff about planes again
16:14<frosch123>i played a plane game once, it was fun, second game was boring
16:14<andythenorth>is the only idea I’ve seen so far that I want an API for :P
16:15<andythenorth>everything else is either (1) dumb (2) good, but not OpenTTD (3) solved in newgrf
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16:18<andythenorth>frosch123: finally, someone turns up talking sense in the thread :P
16:20<frosch123> <- added the profit stuff to that page
16:20<frosch123>what, you were part of it?
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16:21<frosch123>at least your opinion did not change :)
16:22<andythenorth>I was right all along :P
16:22<andythenorth>I should write some kind of economy spec
16:22<frosch123>"(nfo) can be fund to write" (andy, 2009)
16:23<andythenorth>it was
16:23<frosch123>oi, i forgot about p1sim
16:23*andythenorth should have made a python compiler for nfo
16:23<frosch123>what happened to that?
16:23<frosch123> <- still online
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16:25*andythenorth looks in map bits
16:25<frosch123>hmm, it has a similar statistic as factorio
16:25<frosch123>100 lines per file on average
16:25<frosch123>that's really weird to me...
16:25<andythenorth>many many small files?
16:25<frosch123>sometimes you have short files, but 100 on average? that means some files are a lot shorter
16:26<andythenorth>our files look very big to me
16:26<frosch123>you need at least 20 lines for #include
16:26<andythenorth>but I only look in the big ones :P
16:26<frosch123>andythenorth: 500-1000 sounds normal to me
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16:26<frosch123>at 4k it tends to get tedious
16:27<andythenorth>I mostly look in industry_cmd.cpp :P
16:27<frosch123>oh... maybe i count header files wrong
16:27<andythenorth>eh so I’ve had half an idea for a long time
16:27<frosch123>headers can be really short without documentation
16:27<andythenorth>I want to keep some kind of ‘economy health’ byte around
16:27<andythenorth>preferably per tile
16:28<andythenorth>accessible to newgrf, settable by gs (but not requiring gs callbacks)
16:28<andythenorth>per tile might suck, might have to be per town
16:29<y2000rtc>andythenorth: Thank you so much. Question due to repository. Is there any way how to download whole folder with source code? And *.pnml, what should be edited and compile to GRF? :(
16:29<andythenorth>y2000rtc: one of these likely includes the full source
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16:31<y2000rtc>andythenorth: great help, I'm still closer and closer to my goal. :D
16:33*y2000rtc slaps andythenorth around a bit with a large fishbot
16:33<andythenorth>that’s not been said here for a while
16:34<y2000rtc>andythenorth: Ok, I downloaded file NuTrack last version and there is only grf file. What I have to downloaded for to edited and make a grf?
16:36<andythenorth>you likely won’t have anything on Windows that can run Make
16:37<y2000rtc>andythenorth: Thanks again Andy. It looks much better. Right now I have to find right file for editing and there something change and after that make a new GRF file from that, or?
16:37<andythenorth>there are instructions for getting make on windows
16:38<andythenorth>but I would skip that for now
16:38<andythenorth>you should have a folder, like nutracks-r252-source
16:38<andythenorth>put the nutracks.nml file in there
16:39<andythenorth>ach, I don’t know how to use nmlc on windows though :P
16:39<y2000rtc>andythenorth: :) Was already putted.
16:40<andythenorth>there must be instructions for using nmlc on windows somewhere
16:40<y2000rtc>nmlc is a software?
16:41<y2000rtc>Yes, it is SW and I already have there.
16:41<y2000rtc>Is working with some parametres. I used that.
16:41<y2000rtc>It is working over CMD but which parameter must be putted?
16:41<y2000rtc>Maybe there are the same like on a Linux.
16:42<andythenorth>nmlc -c --grf mygrf.grf mygrf.nml
16:42<andythenorth>swap ‘mygrf’ for ‘nutracks’ or so
16:42<y2000rtc>andythenorth: Great. :)
16:42<andythenorth>it might _just_ compile
16:42<andythenorth>if it does you get a grf
16:43<andythenorth>otherwise it will throw some errors somewhere
16:44<y2000rtc>andythenorth: I will do it. One question more. What to change for to use the same design Andy?
16:44<andythenorth>one step at a time :)
16:45<y2000rtc>andythenorth: Yes, but I have to change something before compile, or?
16:45<andythenorth>first see if it compiles at all :)
16:45<y2000rtc>andythenorth: Whole folder must be moved to folder with nmlc?
16:46<andythenorth>not sure on windows
16:46<y2000rtc>andythenorth: Otherwise how to define path?
16:46<y2000rtc>andythenorth: I will try.
16:49<y2000rtc>andythenorth: result: [Knmlc ERROR: "lang\english.lng", line 2: Undefined command "VERSION"
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>you need to run the makefile properly, then
16:51<andythenorth>ach, it needs some custom tags :(
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>VERSION comes from a file "custom_tags.txt" or so, which the makefile fills with the revision (or some other identifying version detail)
16:52<andythenorth>y2000rtc: open lang/english.lng
16:52<andythenorth>delete {VERSION}
16:52<andythenorth>on line 2
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>how does that solve anything?
16:53<andythenorth>should get it compiling
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>just install mingw, and you can run make.
16:55<y2000rtc>andythenorth: Yes, working. :) GRf was made
16:55<y2000rtc>andythenorth: ufff
16:57<y2000rtc>People, have you already seen New game created like a new style of TTD. :) Puzzle style of building and after that 3D. Looks great.
16:57<andythenorth>there’s a few out there
16:59<y2000rtc>andythenorth: Hmm. Interesting.
17:04<y2000rtc>andythenorth: So, now I have to find parameter for choosing design and this one to change to the same everytime. Or?
17:05<andythenorth>you want base set (origina) rails only?
17:05<andythenorth>or Nutracks rails?
17:06<y2000rtc>andythenorth: I want to set original design to all rails in NuTracks.
17:07<y2000rtc>andythenorth: In NuTracks it is the slowest rail.
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17:09<andythenorth>look for graphics {} blocks
17:09<andythenorth>delete everything inside them
17:09<andythenorth>probably works
17:09*andythenorth hasn’t coded any railtypes, but eh
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17:13<y2000rtc>andythenorth: A lot of findings.
17:21<y2000rtc>andythenorth: Just deleting whole blocks?
17:21<andythenorth>everything between graphics {}
17:22<andythenorth>that should restore defaults
17:27<y2000rtc>andythenorth: Done, I'm going to try it.
17:29<y2000rtc>andythenorth: ←[Knmlc ERROR: "src/standard-gauge/RAIL.pnml", line 34: Syntax error, unexpected token "}" Included from: "<stdin>", line 36
17:29<andythenorth>what’s on line 36?
17:30<andythenorth>maybe graphics block can’t be empty, or maybe it’s an extra / missing { or }
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17:33<y2000rtc>andythenorth: underlay: ground_switch_underlay_RAIL;
17:35<andythenorth>getting late for me to figure that out :P
17:35<y2000rtc>andythenorth: :)
17:35<andythenorth>most people probably going to bed
17:35<andythenorth>try tomorrow?
17:36<y2000rtc>andythenorth: Offcourse. Thank you so much. Tomorrow is great.
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---Logclosed Sun Sep 03 00:00:40 2017