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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-09-15

---Logopened Fri Sep 15 00:00:57 2017
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04:24-!-twb is "Trent W. Buck" on #openttd #roundup #debian-au
04:26<twb>Hi, I ship OpenTTD to prison inmates. The built-in package downloader stuff (bananas?) is disabled. Instead I have a crappy hand-written script to bundle a couple of packages into a Debian package (.deb), which gets installed on all the kiosks.
04:26<twb>Inmates are whinging and asking for more content, so I'm looking at this code again.
04:27<twb>Is there a way to get e.g. package dependencies out of bananas, rather than having to work it out by hand?
04:27<twb> is my crappy script
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04:28<twb>(I'm poking around in right now)
04:29<LordAro>that's a rather unusual situation!
04:29<twb>It certainly has some interesting problems to solve :-)
04:30<LordAro>have you thought about just packaging an existing content_download folder? i think ottd should read it from a global /etc/... folder (see readme 4.2)
04:30<twb>It's easier for my version control if this is set up from a script rather than an interactive GUI
04:32<Eddi|zuHause>you could try MUSA, but it's more targeted towards people who want to upload things to bananas rather than download it
04:32<twb>But if you mean that I can just download the .tar.gz and not bother to unpack them, that's useful
04:32<LordAro>i don't believe bananas itself has any form of dependency management, it's all handled by the client
04:32<twb>LordAro: how does the client work out the dependencies?
04:32<Eddi|zuHause>twb: openttd can read .tar files, but not .gz
04:32<twb>LordAro: by trying to execute the scripts?
04:32<twb>Eddi|zuHause: OK, cool.
04:32<LordAro>twb: honestly no idea :p it'll be in the source somewhere
04:33<twb>Yeah :-)
04:33<twb>I think last time I had a quick look at the source and went "this is too hard to understand, I can't be bothered"
04:33<Eddi|zuHause>twb: there is also a (ingame) console interface to bananas, rather than the gui
04:33<LordAro>twb: but, i mean just copying your own (for example) content_download folder
04:33<LordAro>they're fully portable
04:34<twb>I don't actually play opentty myself
04:34<LordAro>or whatever, just an existing ottd install with the content you want installed
04:34<@peter1138>Just download it all ;)
04:35<LordAro>or ^
04:35<twb>What's the total size of everything in bananas?
04:35<twb>ballpark I mean
04:35<@peter1138>Along with those extra content packs that contain stuff that isn't on there.
04:35<twb>Like is it 100MB or 2GB
04:35<LordAro>tbh, there aren't many things except AIs that have any dependencies at all
04:35<twb>LordAro: OK that's good to know
04:35<Eddi|zuHause>twb: multiple GB probably
04:35<@peter1138>Not massive, except for some of V453000's stuff.
04:36<twb>yeah I'm trying to keep the total OS+apps size under about 4GB (before compression)
04:36<twb>squashfs then gets it down to about 1-2GB, faster uploading to kiosks &c
04:37<twb>But like the midi stuff is nice and small compared to modern games :-)
04:37<@peter1138>That is the openttdcoop content pack, it's 22MB.
04:37<@peter1138>I don't know what's included these days. It may just be stuff that isn't on Bananas I guess.
04:38<Eddi|zuHause>twb: i think the bananas ingame console interface should work for you, you can put it in a script file that runs on game start, so you can run it from a build script
04:38<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: that stuff is probably heavily outdated
04:39<Eddi|zuHause>except maybe the dbset :p
04:39<@peter1138>OH yeah, 2010. Duh.
04:39<twb>So newGRF is basically "here's a bundle of content that improves all parts of the TTD experience" ?
04:39<@peter1138>Well, changes at least.
04:40<twb>The baseline I'm using is whatever's in Debian
04:40<twb>Which is 1.4.4 currently because I'm still shipping Debian oldstable
04:45<twb>This is the list of crap $boss told me to install
04:46<twb>I'll build a fresh desktop with openttd installed, unblock direct network access (in the lab), then see what the in-app content manager can do
04:47<Eddi|zuHause> <-- take a look at "content select" and "content download" commands
04:48<Eddi|zuHause>they work somewhat like a package manager on linux
04:48<twb>Cool thanks
04:49<twb>How come Queue.BinaryHeap is in both ailibs and gslibs --- does that mean if ai and gs both want to use it, it has to be downloaded twice?
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04:51<twb>okey dokey
04:52<twb>It's not like it's big enough to matter
04:52<Eddi|zuHause>they probably only differ in a global search and replace for "AI" to "GS"
04:52<Eddi|zuHause>but conceptually, those are separate scripting runtimes
04:53*andythenorth wonders
04:53<andythenorth>my newgrfs have coke and reefers
04:54<Eddi|zuHause>put ice cubes in the coke?`
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05:07<twb>does bananas just run over HTTP/HTTPS?
05:08<twb>I punched a hole through the firewalls for that, but I might have screwed it up
05:20<Eddi|zuHause>there might be two modes, one over http and one over a custom protocol, but i'm not sure about that
05:20<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
05:21<__ln__>i guess back in the old days it was quite common to have prison inmates work with building railways.
05:22<Eddi|zuHause>twb: so tcp port 3978
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05:26<LordAro>__ln__: haha
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05:27<twb>__ln__: yep and in USA they are used to make all US military armour, because minimum wage laws do not apply to convicts
05:27<twb>__ln__: same with laws against truck systems / company towns
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05:28<twb>that's why they pass laws that keep up to 50% of adult males in some communities in prison at any one time -- slave labour
05:32<Eddi|zuHause>well, there's certainly a reason why the US has more prisoners per capita than any other country in the world
05:33<Eddi|zuHause>and it's not because they have more criminal energy than the rest of the world
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05:52<twb>typing one-handed eh
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05:58<twb>Hrmph, I tried opening just 3978/TCP for bananas, and I get "Could not connect to the content server". time to tcpdump
06:00<twb>Derp. Typo'd
06:04<twb>Ohhhh, I know what's happening. Normally FORWARD isn't allowed at all, everything goes through an app proxy
06:04<twb>But since this is going direct, I need to -j MASQUERADE
06:05<twb>works now
06:05<@peter1138>Not sure why it uses a custom protocol instead of HTTP, but hey.
06:05<twb>peter1138: just to be annoying :-P
06:06<twb>HTTP wouldn't have worked anyway unless you support speaking HTTPS *to* the proxy, which is only barely supported even in GUI browsers
06:08<twb>Can I connect the ~ console to stdio, rather than accessing it via the little SDL window?
06:09<LordAro>peter1138: all of the hysterical raisins
06:10<twb>Once I've download content through the content manager, do I have to "activate" it somehow? It looks like for NewGRF, I have to explicitly add/remove it from the "active" list, and I guess other kinds of content have their own ways to load
06:11<LordAro>it's added per game
06:11<LordAro>i'd leave it up to the players to do it themselves
06:11<LordAro>they're not always wanted, after all
06:11<twb>good, that's what I want
06:11<twb>I don't want to like download blade runner graphics and have every inmate see that by default :P
06:13<twb>OK so as a test I downloaded (through the GUI) the Scott Joplin OBM, then did New Game, gear icon, and I can see it in the "Base Music" drop-down
06:13<twb>But it's greyed out
06:13<twb>How do I find out why it's greyed out?
06:15<LordAro>can only change base game settings from the main menu
06:18<twb>yaaaay scott joplin
06:20<Eddi|zuHause>basesets (sound/music/graphics), NewGRFs and AIs/GameScripts have each their own setup screens in the main menu
06:23<Wolf01>Bah, my pen is broken... I can't draw short lines
06:24<Eddi|zuHause>draw long lines and cut them down to size?
06:24<Wolf01>A bit difficult in the middle of a drawing
06:25<twb>OK so the content manager makes ~/.local/share/openttd/content_download/ai/library/Queue.FibonacciHeap-3.tar
06:25<Eddi|zuHause>man, this "Kindergarten" game is crazy :p
06:25<twb>Where my old half-arsed stuff has /usr/share/games/openttd/ai/library/Queue.FibonacciHeap.2/library.nut
06:25<Wolf01>Also I don't have anymore a good application which respond to the buttons... can't help
06:25<twb>Although weirdly the Scott Joplin stuff is not in a .tar
06:26<Eddi|zuHause>twb: it doesn't really matter which of the paths is used, and .tar also is irrelevant
06:26<twb> --- does baseset (or maybe just music) have to be untarred to work properly?
06:27<@peter1138>Only music sets need to be untarred.
06:27<Eddi|zuHause>music might be special
06:28<Wolf01>Bah, I should just trash this graphic tablet
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06:35<Wolf01>Which free software could I use to sketch with the graphic tablet? Not gimp
06:36<crem>krita ?
06:37<twb>Hrm, so I studied to see how to "scrape" the content data without bothering to start up an X display and openttd and everything
06:37<twb>gnutls-cli --crlf -p 3980
06:39<Wolf01>I think I'll just go with Ink... if I find a way to enable it in this pc
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06:42<Wolf01>Ok, Ink is perfect
06:43<twb>Blergh it's past my bedtime and working out the HTTP-like wire protocol based on send_data() in is making me sleepy
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06:50<twb>OK this at least gets a response from the server:
06:51<twb>Now to read network_content.cpp to work out how that's asking for a package listing
06:52<twb>OO hurts my FP brain
07:39<Wolf01>I think today I'll minecraft all the rest of the spare time... like 5 hours...
07:39<__ln__>anyone been to:
07:42<Wolf01>Is the one near the mythical Berlin mountain?
07:44<twb>OK I'm definitely *definitely* going to bed now
07:44<twb>thanks everybody for your help
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: the only "mountains" in berlin are piles of rubble from WWII
08:05<Wolf01>Nah, the other mountain
08:05<Eddi|zuHause>then i don't know what you mean
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>Tempelhof closed in the mid 1990s
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>Tempelhof was in west berlin, BER is near Schönefeld, which is just outside berlin
08:06<__ln__>or early 2000s?
08:07<Wolf01>Yes, they built a mountain there
08:08<Eddi|zuHause>they did quite a number of things in the Tempelhof area, like art installations, refugee camps, festivals, housing projects
08:08<__ln__>but that certainly wasn't built in reality
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>ok, i definitely haven't heard about that one before
08:11<Wolf01>So the ticket I purchased for a trip there was a scam :(
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08:12<__ln__>how suspicious is it that Wolf01 complains about a mountain scam, and mr. Montaña immediately quits?
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09:20<supermop>up all night with jet lag, trying to think of some way a game could be both cute and fun, and have rivet-counting shunting or pointwork etc
09:20<supermop>well first was trying to think of some kind of cute tram or metro game
09:22<supermop>but tram and metro systems are simple in a way that they are impossible to make a game out of unless make maddeningly complex
09:28<crem>Anyone from Arstotzka? Have a visa question!
09:29<__ln__>from what?
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09:36<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: everybody knows that the most important thing is the name!
09:49<supermop>maybe something where you collect trams
09:50<supermop>but unless it's stupidly complex, all you'd see is your tram going back and forth
09:52<Wolf01>Mmmh, ublock origin blocks my bookmarks with
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09:54<supermop>idk i guess neko atsume but with trams?
09:54<supermop>or metro trains
09:56<andythenorth>supermop: played Mini Metro? o_O
09:57<andythenorth>lo Alberth
09:58<supermop>andythenorth: i was an early backer
09:58<supermop>but thats sort of what i am saying, its way too simple
09:58<supermop>and instead of a cute tram, its a rectangle
09:58<supermop>im thinking something that has crossovers, platforms, pointwork
09:59<supermop>but not a whole network
09:59<supermop>like a chibi shunting puzzle, but for passenger operations
09:59<supermop>so basically tram atsume
09:59<supermop>"ding sing"
10:01<supermop>like your terminus has stupid pointwork, so all your trams pile up and get delayed and get angry with you
10:01<supermop>maybe it is tram tamagochi
10:01<andythenorth>yeah Mini Metro isn’t a train game
10:01<andythenorth>just a shape matching game
10:03<supermop>feed tram more amps of 600V DC
10:04<supermop>or it could be like denshya de D
10:07<supermop>drawn any more large logoish ponies?
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10:17<stefino>Hi I have a question about vehicle length. Maximum length is 8 but we are making more realistic sets and need longer "boxes" for our vehicles. We solved it with invisible parts what are articulated ahead of the vehicle and behind the vehicle. It work correcly but the problem is at bridges.As you can see in the picture. Main graphics is loaded at the middle box (front and rear boxes are not displayed) and if vehicle goes throw the bridge,
10:17<stefino>eground sprite. This all will be OK if the game will provide longer boxes than 8. Is it possible to make these boxes with maximum length 16? It will be really helpfull for us and provide better ingame graphics result that current flashing graphics on the bridges and another tiles where the game uses foreground/background tiles.
10:18<stefino>Thanks for the answer :)
10:19<Eddi|zuHause>stefino: unfortunately, it's not as easy to enlarge the boxes, because larger boxes means there are more cases where the sprite order cannot be resolved properly, causing more glitches elsewhere
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>also, that link fails
10:21<stefino>it is only picture with this bug
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>stefino: my approach to that is to also cut down the sprite, showing 1/3 in the first "invisible" vehicle, 1/3 in the middle, and 1/3 in the last "invisible" vehicle
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>only in curves you must show the vehicle as one sprite
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10:23<Eddi|zuHause>and on slopes
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>it is pretty tricky though
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>and does not fix all cases
10:25*andythenorth is doing chibi vehicles instead
10:25<andythenorth>max 8/8, or visibly articulated for longer
10:25<andythenorth>constraints are good
10:26<stefino>yes I was thinking about that but enlarge the boxes will be much easier than this. But I have no idea how difficult is it. But as you rote that it has some another problems - you tried it before?
10:26<andythenorth>so this is interesting:
10:26<andythenorth>if I un-archive that .xz I get a .cpgz
10:27<andythenorth>and unarchiving that gives a .xz
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>stefino: i did even worse things :p
10:27<andythenorth>rinse, repeat
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10:29<stefino>interesting but totaly incomprehensible to me :D I'm happy if I succesfuly code new trains/buildings and another things into the game
10:29<andythenorth>make shorter trains :)
10:30<stefino>this is our problem. because we like realistic graphics and short trains are not realistic :) :/
10:31<andythenorth>is problem yes :)
10:31<andythenorth>tried MS Train Simulator? o_O
10:32<stefino>and trains are more handicaped with this graphics lag than cars cause they are longer. you are quite right :P we are using 3D models from these simulaors :D :P
10:36<andythenorth>I had trains up to 10/8 long in Iron Horse 1
10:36<stefino>in the worst case we have to satisfy with flashing graphics but it is a shame
10:36<andythenorth>but for v2, I’m reducing them all to 8/8
10:36<stefino>yes but you make 8bpp or not?
10:37<stefino>yes..8bpp is more accessible than extrazoom in 32bpp
10:38<stefino>if you take realistic wagon and make it shorter for 8/8 , it looks realy crazy
10:39<stefino>we make length deformation too but not so big as OTTD wants
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10:42<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: it is a nice effect :)
10:42<stefino>it looks interesting - more Z axis rotations than 8?
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, and all abusing some newgrf variables, not changing the actual game internals
10:43<Eddi|zuHause>basically, you check how the 3 part vehicles are positioned (all straight, first one turned 45° others straight, etc.)
10:44<stefino>yes yes I understand :) nice idea
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10:46<stefino>you are switching active graphics between these 3 boxes what makes a wagon
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>yes, if they are all straight, each vehicle shows a slice of the whole vehicle, and if any turns/height changes are present, the center vehicle shows the whole sprite, the others invisible
10:49<stefino>is this graphics on dev zone?
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10:51<Eddi|zuHause>small excerpt from the core logic:
10:53<Eddi|zuHause>stefino: i posted a link earlier where you can download it
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10:55<stefino>I'm trying to understand the code :D
10:56<Eddi|zuHause>ok, first thing you should probably know is how var 62 works:
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>unfortunately, nml does not have the ability to work with varibables that take parameters properly
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>so it has to be done via "var[]"
10:58<stefino>okay okay
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>SLICE will be 0 for the center vehicle, -1 for the front vehicle, and +1 for the back vehicle
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>i think
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>not sure anymore
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>so lets take apart the first switch formula:
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>((var[0x62, 24, 0x000000FF, -1 - (SLICE)] - var[0x62, 24, 0x000000FF, -0 - (SLICE)]) & 0xFF) << 8
11:01<Eddi|zuHause> | ((var[0x62, 24, 0x000000FF, -0 - (SLICE)] - var[0x62, 24, 0x000000FF, 1 - (SLICE)]) & 0xFF))
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>the first part checks the height difference between the front and the middle part
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>and the second part checks the height difference between middle and back part
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>if both are 0, you branch to the spriteset that shows the sliced vehicles
11:02<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise you show the full sprite for the middle part (SLICE == 0) and invisible sprite for the other parts
11:04<Eddi|zuHause>the second switch works in a similar way, just it extracts the direction part instead of the height part from var62
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11:06<Eddi|zuHause>if all changes are 0 you go to the height switch, because the vehicle is straight
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>if one of the changes is "1" or "F" (turn right or left, i forgot which way around) you show one of the various angles
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>and the last line in that is some fallback for weird combinations
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>again, if SLICE is not 0, you show invisible sprites instead
11:08<stefino>ok this looks "easy" now
11:08<Eddi|zuHause>and the last switch checks whether the sprite you're resolving currently is in the world (viewport) or some gui (like train list, purchase window, etc.)
11:08<Eddi|zuHause>because you don't want any of this angle magic in the gui
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11:10<stefino>okay. and in the hight case the wagon changed graphics too? rotate in y axis?
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>currently not, but it would be possible
11:11<Eddi|zuHause>the options inside the switch would look more like in the second switch in that case
11:11<Eddi|zuHause>after the "if SLICE == 0" line
11:14<stefino>um...interesting . and one more question - i can't imagine the groups in second switch. I understad how it works but you have there 4 sprite groups. and one spritegroup is 1 possition of wagon. but there are more possitions than 4 or not? if you have asymetric vehicle
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>well, each group has the 8 positions, like usual, for asymmetric vehicles
11:20<stefino>ahh ok
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>my sprite files look like this:
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>and each of the sprite group cuts some different sections out of this file
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>some overlapping
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>some identical
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>some with different offset
11:21<Eddi|zuHause>figuring out these offsets is actually the tricky part
11:21<Eddi|zuHause>because they're different for different vehicle lengths, directions, etc.
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>for each of the angles, you take every 3rd of those blue sprite areas
11:23<stefino>yes yes :) this sprite says everything :)
11:23<stefino>so thanks a lot for explenation:)
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>aaaanyway... i think xkcd got it wrong, a lid at a knife fight might work out quite well, actually... you can use it as a shield and work on disarming the other person
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>with guns it's trickier, depends on how close you can get to the other person before he's ready to shoot
11:27<Wolf01>Too bad that slicing won't work with 32bpp :(
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: why?
11:28<Wolf01>Ok, you can do some antialiasing to mask the slicing points
11:28<Wolf01>But the grf size will explode
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: this exact same code works with 32bpp sprites
11:29<Wolf01>No, not the code
11:29<Wolf01>The graphics
11:29<@peter1138>Why would it be any different for 32bpp than 8bpp?
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>yes, the exact code already works with 32bpp sprites
11:30<Wolf01>Oh, you have to draw the full wagon anyway, didn't see that last image
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>fun fact: on the screen it doesn't look any different if you slice it up and put it back together
11:30<Wolf01>I thought it composed it
11:32<supermop>i would only use this method for rendered sprites
11:32<supermop>would be too painful to draw all those angles
11:33<supermop>i already get frustrated with the 8 views
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>afair oberhümer put the focus on the 8 main views, and made the angles by some simple transformation tools
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>on the grounds that they're probably not on the screen for very long
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, rendered sprites really only shine for extra zoom, they might look terrible in normal zoom
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11:56<@peter1138>When do we switch to a proper 3D engine :D
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11:56<andythenorth>when we have XML for mods
11:56<@peter1138>ini files
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12:06<Eddi|zuHause>i'm too far out of the buzzword game to come up with something witty here
12:11<Wolf01>AR OTTD would be cool, trains running on my desk
12:11<Wolf01>From the biscuit mine to my mouth
12:12<supermop>Wolf01: thats what i need with my tramagochi
12:12<andythenorth>AR OpenTTD probably works
12:12<andythenorth>trains on the desk
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12:14<supermop>i guess i could use cnc router to inlay small brass channels into a desktop at 9mm spacing
12:14<supermop>to make a tramway
12:14<Wolf01>Just buy a kato unirail
12:15<supermop>might keep electrocuting myself on it though
12:21<Sacro>Dunno if it's allowed to be in there or not
12:21<Wolf01>Just report it
12:22<Sacro>Yeah but on what grounds?
12:22<Sacro>But it isn't
12:22<Sacro>Is it?
12:22<Sacro>It's got some extra xml and p7x files, pri files
12:22<Sacro>I guess there's a possible GPL claim on those
12:23<__ln__>however, GPL violation is not a 'scam' really
12:23<__ln__>also, GPL doesn't forbid selling stuff for money.
12:24<__ln__>and i assume OpenTTD is not a registered trademark
12:24<Wolf01>Ok, then I could sell OTTD too
12:24<__ln__>yes, you could.
12:24<andythenorth>it’s in forums
12:25<andythenorth>it’s a GPL violation
12:26<andythenorth>no offer to provide source
12:26<__ln__>did you buy it and check that there is no offer?
12:26<andythenorth>good point
12:26<andythenorth>someone buy it? o_O
12:26<Sacro>I downloaded the trial
12:27<andythenorth>is the binary accompanied by a written offer to distribute source?
12:27<Sacro>comes with the COPYING file
12:27<Sacro>If you know where to find it
12:28<andythenorth>“probably fine”?
12:29<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think the GPL has something about not needing a "written offer" for digital distribution, instead you must offer the source from the same place
12:29<Wolf01>Then just purchase a dev license for windows store ($19 lifetime iirc) and put OTTD there for free
12:29<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: probably in the GPL FAQs somewhere :P
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12:42<andythenorth>quak quak
12:48<frosch123>andythenorth: someone already checked it
12:48<frosch123>and hoi :)
12:55*andythenorth such wagon length headaches :D
12:58<frosch123>make a platform length patch to make the size of tiles configurable
12:58<frosch123>can't be worse than daylength
12:58<andythenorth>I should just make all the engines consistent lengths
12:58<andythenorth>8/8 is obvious
12:59<frosch123>V went for 16/8
13:00<andythenorth>I made it hard with steam engines at 6/8, 8/8, 10/8, 12/8
13:00<andythenorth>makes for a lot of pax + mail cars in buy menu
13:01<andythenorth>3 generations of 4/8, 6/8, 8/8 pax and mail coaches
13:01<andythenorth>18 is a lot :P
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13:17<V453000>sup huminz
13:18<Wolf01>Waiting for FFF
13:18<V453000>haha me too
13:19<andythenorth>V453000: how long should trains be?
13:20<V453000>units of 8/8 obviously :P
13:20<Wolf01>More than 5 wagons said someone back in time
13:20<V453000>can articulate stuff with smaller bits though
13:20<V453000>oh like that
13:21<V453000>well I consider 5 tile trains to be the golden standard, giant network people often prefer 3 tile trains
13:25<andythenorth>8/8 is problem for realism :P
13:26<andythenorth>people built their RL trains wrong
13:26<andythenorth>not considering my needs
13:26<frosch123>V453000: andy wants engines with different lengths, but is obsessed with whole trains being whole tiles
13:26<andythenorth>RL is rude
13:26<andythenorth>I won this for trams
13:27<andythenorth>but trams can’t be recombined arbitrarily :P
13:27<V453000>andythenorth: have articulated 1-units trains? XD force configurations
13:27<andythenorth>big buy menu :P
13:27<andythenorth>such problems
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13:38<V453000>yeah nevermind it's totes dumb idea :D
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13:55<andythenorth>@seen simyoulater
13:55<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: simyoulater was last seen in #openttd 4 days, 23 hours, 43 minutes, and 31 seconds ago: <SimYouLater> I only have had time to change my important passwords.
13:57<frosch123>funny quote :)
13:58<frosch123>andythenorth: do you use autoreplace?
13:58<andythenorth>autoreplace makes the coach problem much harder :P
13:59<frosch123>so, if you built a train to full tile length with your 18 item purchase list, and replace the engine, it is wrong again?
13:59<andythenorth>no mixed-cargo articulated consists
13:59<andythenorth>it’s wrong again
13:59<andythenorth>that is one of my problems, trying to work out a length schema
13:59<frosch123>how about elongating the engines in the front with empty space *if* they are the first engine in the consist?
13:59<supermop>integer tile trains and nice lengths for steam trains dont go together
14:00<andythenorth>I need it to magically autoreplace to integer lengths, is brainfuck
14:00<V453000>wtf are you doing andythenorth ?
14:00<supermop>time to put dream to bed?
14:00<andythenorth>trains should be unit-tile lengths
14:00<V453000>just add tender when in doubt supermop :P
14:00<supermop>nice to have, not need to have
14:00<andythenorth>I can’t use the decimal lengths
14:00<andythenorth>they’re lies
14:00<andythenorth>and we can’t fix maths
14:00<andythenorth>so eh
14:00<supermop>use base 12 lengths
14:01<frosch123>i guess when we change the vehicle movement for extra zoom, we should make it 60 substeps per tile :)
14:01<andythenorth>I think consist templates might be needed
14:01<andythenorth>just a small thing :P
14:01<andythenorth>but eh, that’s the only missing feature in OpenTTD anyway
14:02<supermop>refit wagons to different lengths
14:02<V453000>new project or IH?
14:02<supermop>he's redoing ih
14:02<frosch123>also, how much will 8bpp people complain if we draw engines with anti-aliasing at non-integer pixel positions?
14:02<V453000>oh god
14:02<V453000>y u no new set if redoing :D
14:02<V453000>is what I intend with nus
14:03<V453000>it has issues, sure, but reworking it all isn't beneficial
14:03<andythenorth>says V453000 :)
14:03<andythenorth>frosch123: can you draw them sharply on my retina screen? o_O
14:04<andythenorth>I have sub-pixel drawing capability :P
14:04<V453000>well I don't know how much rework you have in mind
14:04<andythenorth>is shit
14:04<V453000>antialiasing? wot
14:05<V453000>andythenorth: hm, what are issues?
14:05<andythenorth>is crap
14:05<frosch123>andythenorth: will people complani if wagons sometimes have 2 or 3 pixel gaps between them?
14:05<andythenorth>V453000: train lengths have no scheme
14:05<andythenorth>and is bollocks
14:05<andythenorth>train is 1.7 long, add 0.4 wagon, it’s 2.0
14:06<andythenorth>such rounding crap
14:06<V453000>what scheme do you imagine to get?
14:06<V453000>oh, well ... told you :)
14:06<andythenorth>4/8 and 8/8 mostly
14:06<V453000>you will always get that shit with wtf lengths
14:06<andythenorth>delete lengths
14:07<andythenorth>all winning
14:07<andythenorth>except some things need to be 6/8 to look good
14:07<andythenorth>or 10/8
14:08<andythenorth>or 12/8
14:08<V453000>'need to' is just an excuse
14:08<V453000>sorry :P
14:08<frosch123>@calc 6/16*60
14:08<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 22.5
14:08<andythenorth>V453000: make argument for solution?
14:08<frosch123>@calc 5.5/16*60
14:08<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 20.625
14:09<frosch123>@calc 5.75/16*60
14:09<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 21.5625
14:09<andythenorth>if engines don’t get longer, wtf? Player needs ‘bigger’ to feel progression
14:09<V453000>I believe you can always add length by more details or whatnot, or subtract by chibbializing
14:09<V453000>NUTS solves that by having the engine getting shorter in the front
14:10<V453000>so they tile correctly to wagons
14:10<V453000>of course in multiengine setups this doesn't work as great
14:10<V453000>in next train set I want to have consist-aware trains so they merge if they are multiple after one another
14:11<V453000>... it is getting shorter just visually, logically maintaining 8/8
14:13<V453000>oh I am also obliged to tell you that I hate FIRS3 because suddenly many cargoes are unknown to NUTS and don't have unique graphics :D
14:13<V453000>I win now
14:14<andythenorth>nah, I win by making you hate
14:14<andythenorth>you need to draw PIPE
14:14<andythenorth>SULP is easy
14:14<V453000>eh no
14:14<andythenorth>just yellow
14:16<V453000>without ability to define more custom signals (one of the fancy FS tasks you asked me about), I think PIPE is not a great concept. signals are necessary to make any train system work otherwise it's just dumb imo
14:16<V453000>and making signals for it right now would be a pain esp in diagonals
14:16<V453000>but eh
14:16<andythenorth>nah, I mean PIPE cargo
14:16<andythenorth>not PIPE grf
14:16<V453000>I wouldn't do anything about it regardless :P
14:17<andythenorth>here is realism for you to copy
14:17<V453000>vehicle parts, vehicles, pipes, and there was some more
14:17<V453000>well I need to draw a bunch
14:17<V453000>well I won't draw it for nuts probably :P
14:18<andythenorth>well I am done adding to FIRS for a bit
14:18<andythenorth>no v4 planned anytime soon
14:18<andythenorth>next thing I have to do
14:18<andythenorth>is fix the wall of shame that is Extreme economy
14:19<andythenorth>don’t want to do that
14:19<V453000>well I didn't even properly play v2 and now there is v3
14:19<V453000>soooo yeah
14:19*andythenorth doesn’t want to die leaving Extreme in current form
14:19<andythenorth>unfinished business
14:19<V453000>kind of out of the loop so I can't talk much about details in FIRS, steeltown seemed interesting but I kind of lost focus after I connected ES
14:20<andythenorth>same here
14:20<V453000>everything was max production before 1910 and I started in 1900
14:20<andythenorth>I got 25 years out of it
14:20<V453000>so I didn't feel incentivized to do more things
14:20<andythenorth>I think iz fine
14:21<V453000>it's perfectly fine
14:21<andythenorth>it’s ‘connect all the chains once’ kind of gameplay
14:21<andythenorth>then start a new map
14:21<andythenorth>problem with Extreme
14:21<V453000>it's a problem that you can spot everywhere in firs
14:21<andythenorth>I designed it originally to try keeping game going
14:21<andythenorth>with 'moar'
14:21<andythenorth>but ‘moar’ is boring
14:21<V453000>if I was to fix it somehow, I would make many more levels of production so that the high ones aren't that trivial to reach
14:22<V453000>well moar can be less :P
14:22<andythenorth>I considered ‘level up’ mechanic for supplies
14:22<V453000>as in, have current gung-ho about the max, just have many more intermediate steps
14:22<supermop>this is cute:
14:22<andythenorth>like once per year, if supplied enough, an increase
14:22<andythenorth>by 25% or so
14:22<andythenorth>gung-ho is kind of daft
14:23<V453000>it is ridiculously easy to achieve
14:26<andythenorth>well it’s designed specifically for NoCarGoal or Silicon Valley :)
14:26<andythenorth>owing to…reasons :P
14:26<andythenorth>isn’t it
14:27<andythenorth>this is the kind of FIRS-is-shit I am ok with :)
14:27<andythenorth>at least I know why and how
14:27<V453000>interesting approach :P
14:27<andythenorth>v4: better production
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14:36<andythenorth>so how will templated consists be done then?
14:36<andythenorth>can we just do autoreplace with arithmetic?
14:36<andythenorth>‘for wagon foo, add 2 wagons bar'
14:36<andythenorth>‘for 2 wagon red, add one wagon blue’
14:40<supermop>just save consists the way one makes groups?
14:41<supermop>then in replace be able to select saved consists as if they they were vehicles
14:41<supermop>like the now replacing engine/wagons
14:41<supermop>add /consists?
14:42<supermop>so a consist may or may not be added behind some other vehicle i guess
14:46<andythenorth>template consists means virtual trains and crap
14:46<andythenorth>and newgrf shenanigans
14:46<andythenorth>not sure anyone will ever achieve it
14:46<andythenorth>wondering if ‘complicated replace rules’ is better
14:49<@Alberth>if you can script it, you basically have consists, except in script form rather than as already built (virtual) train
14:49<frosch123>andythenorth: there are two patches for it
14:49<andythenorth>I guess I have to try them :|
14:49*andythenorth doesn’t understand how it can be done with newgrfs
14:50<andythenorth>the virtual train won’t exist, so it won’t have a railtype
14:50<andythenorth>newgrfs that make extensive use of cb36 are going to break]
14:50<andythenorth>we’ll get another 30 FS asking for special variables in templates
14:50<andythenorth>also the virtual train won’t have a lifetime or build date
14:50<andythenorth>so same issues
14:52<frosch123>the things you listed are dead easy to solve
14:52<frosch123>date is just current date
14:52<andythenorth>this is why andythenorth is not a programmer :|
14:52<frosch123>it's most fitting because that's what other trains will be replaced with
14:53<frosch123>just build a depot on tile 0 and stop trains in it
14:54<frosch123>trains never age there, are always new
15:07<andythenorth>Wolf01 :P
15:07<andythenorth>did you mean ‘this is why we got stuck and NRT isn’t in trunk’ or so?
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15:24<V453000>can't seem to decide if I really want to make my next train set in pixel pushing or 3D pushing
15:24<V453000>but I guess I can always return to nuts pixel pushing if I really wanted to do the former
15:24<V453000>the fact that I don't already speaks for itself
15:25<andythenorth>you’ll just get pissed off with them
15:25<V453000>and ifn o aand if no EZ then grf not new enough
15:25<V453000>and if no EZ then grf not new enough
15:25<V453000>iz what I meant
15:26<V453000>am on macbook, not used to this
15:26<V453000>and pixel pushing x4 sprites sounds pretty fucked up
15:28<andythenorth>such keys
15:28<andythenorth>type them in any order
15:29<V453000>that's basically what I am doing, writing down a grf design document
15:29<V453000>such serious
15:29<V453000>that piece of trash has been laying around my disks for too long
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15:34<behindTheWheel>hi all
15:34*andythenorth might have found a way to have just 7 pax and mail cars
15:34<andythenorth>including two classes of pax :P
15:35<behindTheWheel>want to start play opentdd (played n years ago) should I start single game or connect to some server is ok ?
15:35<andythenorth>either :)
15:36<behindTheWheel>dont want to spoil online game being a noob
15:41<frosch123>different servers have different rules
15:41<frosch123>there is no general rule except "dont be a dick"
15:43<andythenorth>supermop: finished it
15:43<supermop>looks british
15:44<supermop>andythenorth: you could reduce generations of passenger cars
15:44<supermop>have a mk3 that you can keep buying forever
15:45<andythenorth>kind of the conclusion I’ve got to
15:47<andythenorth>what shall I call that engine?
15:47<andythenorth>‘shredder’ isn’t right :P
15:56<supermop>name after some moor
15:57<supermop>marston moor?
15:57<supermop>some oter civil war battle?
15:58<andythenorth>controversial :)
15:59<andythenorth>white rose
16:01<supermop>roundhead sounds train-y
16:01<supermop>tudor could work
16:01<supermop>white rose idk
16:02<supermop>weren't there a cromwell loco irl?
16:02<supermop>whats the name of the keep in York?
16:02<supermop>idk just call it doncaster
16:02<supermop>that's plenty train-y
16:13<Wolf01> <andythenorth> did you mean ‘this is why we got stuck and NRT isn’t in trunk’ or so? <- yeah, my english sometimes is too much italian
16:14<andythenorth>meanwhile this
16:14<andythenorth>peter1138: ^
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16:30<Arveen>that one sound very nice
16:33<@peter1138>Sounds good until the "vocal" comes on.
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16:41<andythenorth>turn it up louder
16:42<Wolf01>andythenorth: better now?
16:43<Wolf01>BTW, I'm totally fine if they want to merge the current NRT in their patchpacks, but I warn them that they will end up with some incompatible thing in future
16:44<andythenorth>and newgrfs that need updated
16:44<andythenorth>[shrug] :)
16:45<Wolf01>Even the current unspooled etc probably will be useless in future with BGT
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16:57<Wolf01>Short for NRTBGT
16:58<Wolf01>Which is NotRoadTypesButGroundTypes
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16:59<Wolf01>So, in future you will have just to change the ground for the pavement of the tramway, not define 6 tramways with the same specs
16:59<supermop>i still dont get what the point of a ground type is, and what it has to do with roads
17:02<supermop>hmm i am too bored i think i should go home
17:03<Wolf01>So you can go home when you get bored?
17:03<Wolf01>supermop: BTW if you want to get into the discussion
17:06<supermop>Wolf01: i will probably be bored there too
17:06<supermop>but it is 17:00 on friday and no one else is in the office
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17:09<supermop>still think towns should build more than just road
17:10<Wolf01>That's a different problem
17:10<supermop>otherwise ROAD must be something that makes sense from year 0
17:10<supermop>but that might look stupid in year 3000
17:13<Wolf01>The problem might be the auto-upgrade of the roads, towns should build dirt/cobble roads, then with the ages they should upgrade to asphalt/concrete
17:16<andythenorth>switch graphics by date :P
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17:16<Wolf01>Eh... not so simple
17:17<Wolf01>1. MakeWholeMapDirty()
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17:17<Wolf01>2. You should switch the roadtype, because you might want different road properties
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17:56<andythenorth>is bed
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18:32<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: automatic road upgrade should be in the town growth algorithm, probably
18:33<Wolf01>Not really growth, but a parallel one
18:33<Wolf01>And it should call roadworks, just to be evil :>
18:34<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: in each growth cycle, town has chance (1 in X) to upgrade the town center tile. and whenever the town growth algorithm goes from an upgraded road tile to an unupgraded one, it has chance (1 in X) to upgrade that tile
18:34<Eddi|zuHause>that way, you slowly upgrade the roads from the town center outwards
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>and you have a chance to tweak X
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>and road repair could also trigger an upgrade
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19:24<Wolf01>Sleepflix time
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19:35<supermop_home>is transport fever worth getting?
19:37<Wolf01>Yes, and no, depends on your expectations
19:37<supermop_home>can I use it to collect trams?
19:37<Wolf01>There are some trams yes
19:37<supermop_home>can I add more trams?
19:37<supermop_home>and do i need steam to play it?
19:38<Wolf01>Mmmh, I think there is a non-steam version
19:38<Wolf01>Maybe on GoG
19:42<supermop_home>no Japanese trams
19:42<supermop_home>"kiha58 is the Japanese diesel multiple unit"
19:42<supermop_home>hopefully not the only one?
19:44<Wolf01>Try their forum, if you know german...
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19:49<Eddi|zuHause>they're from switzerland, they know almost all languages :p
19:50<Wolf01>The problem is when you don't know the other languages :P
19:50<supermop_home>how do you guys use this game?
19:50<Wolf01>I run it and play :D
19:51<supermop_home>is it practical to play around with pointwork/junctions, like a complex model railroad?
19:51<supermop_home>or is it more like a prettier game with a different idea for cargo dist
19:51<Wolf01>It improved greatly since the release, now it's playable
19:52<Wolf01>I mostly do point to point, because industries follow the common market rules of demand and offer
19:52<Eddi|zuHause>complex junctions were always a bit fiddly, but i haven't played with the latest changes
19:53<Eddi|zuHause>but it was definitely a huge step up from train fever
19:54<Wolf01>Cdist is also well done, transfer happen automagically and most things are automated wrt OTTD
19:55<Wolf01>They removed the ability to connect stations like it's on OTTD and train fever, but doing so a station can transfer to any other different station in the catchement area
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19:57<Wolf01>And since the last update you can see through tunnel entrances :D
20:00<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly sure building bridges is still as fiddly as before
20:00<Eddi|zuHause>especially double track bridges which are not rectangular to the thing they bridge over
20:01<Wolf01>Nah, it's difficult to fail to build multi track bridges
20:02<Wolf01>The problem might come when you need to build a road tunnel under a track embankment
20:03<Wolf01>In fact modders fixed this with pre-made stuff
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20:03<supermop_home>is their shunting?
20:04<supermop_home>all the screeshots make it look like big stations and yards in the middle of empty greeen pastures
20:04<Wolf01> <- this one is a must have imo
20:04<supermop_home>how is this land valuable enough to need a train station but no one wants to build or even farm there
20:05<supermop_home>and apparently it can't support anything more than some short grass
20:06<Wolf01>You prefer a carpet of forests like OTTD?
20:06<supermop_home>well maybe just not everything looks like Kazakhstan
20:07<supermop_home>here in the us land that is neither arid nor farmed actually still is pretty heavily forested
20:07<supermop_home>even in the eastern us
20:08<supermop_home>grass really only grows in people's yards or out on the praries
20:08<Wolf01>You will find easily that clearing some trees will need a bank loan in TF
20:08<supermop_home>in new york if a plot stays empty more than a year it starts to get tree saplings
20:10<Wolf01>Oh, and no scenario editor, but you can load heightmaps
20:11<supermop_home>an Oahu or izu oshima would be fun
20:11<supermop_home>maybe a seto sea
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20:33<Wolf01> or this one
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21:50<supermop_home>I wish there was a command to run the river generator again in SE
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---Logclosed Sat Sep 16 00:00:59 2017