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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-09-21

---Logopened Thu Sep 21 00:00:06 2017
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01:49<V453000>yeah I saw it Wolf01 :)
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02:07<V453000>is him
02:13<V453000>now I see what you meant by forum drama
02:13<V453000>I don't like that dude, nuff said
02:26<V453000>so I've got a typical andythenorth vs. FS problem, I looked at my BRIX trello for 0.0.2 and there is a load of work for the next version even when ignoring trees
02:26<V453000>the problem is all of them are kind of really good to do :D
02:26<V453000>can't remove
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02:32<andythenorth>V453000: is easy
02:33<andythenorth>trello has tags or filters or something?
02:34<andythenorth>tag everything as ‘later’, make a saved search
02:35<andythenorth>hide them, profit
02:49<V453000>hm :)
02:50<andythenorth>milestones innit
02:50<andythenorth>my FIRS ‘later’ list is massive
02:50<andythenorth>but ‘later’ is not ‘now’ so it’s no bother
02:53*V453000 has updated his train plan progression table yet again
02:54<andythenorth>such plans
02:54<andythenorth>haz screenshot?
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02:56<V453000>iz for long talk and when you see it all together you will shit self
02:56<V453000>showing bits would remove surprise later :P
02:56<V453000>same time I am not sure I will be able to keep the glorious secret for that long
02:56<andythenorth>such surprises
02:56*andythenorth hopes for just one train, always boss
02:57<andythenorth>and AI builds it for you
02:57<andythenorth>also all orders
03:00<V453000>I'll try to keep it secret for now :) it's nothing revolutionary that would really help you in your stuff
03:00<V453000>so it's just "yo, table"
03:01<V453000>which is masturbating over faggot-level expert gameplay, which is probably not your target audience
03:01<V453000>like really fucked up way
03:01<V453000>what I will show you in a minute however is wip tropic trees :)
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03:08<V453000>how the fuck many tree building restrictions does tropic have! WTF XD
03:10<andythenorth>such trees
03:12<V453000>will be big changes and this is just 1 growth stage so there will be a lot more density
03:12<V453000>the giant green trees will probably go completely
03:13<V453000>with more density they would just be too much
03:14<V453000>colours are fucked, blaba
03:14<V453000>iz start
03:14<V453000>I'll probably add the grass leaves everywhere to every tree sprite
03:14<V453000>moar overgrown garden feel
03:18<andythenorth>railtypes are ass
03:21<andythenorth>no minimum speed limit
03:23<V453000>I find that unnecessary
03:23<V453000>if you are mixing tracks in the game then shit is already going bad
03:23<V453000>*mixing train speeds
03:24<V453000>and a fast train with horrible acceleration can actually be slower than a slow train with great acceleration
03:25<andythenorth>also railtype conversion is just ass
03:25<andythenorth>because of trains stuck on wrong railtype
03:25<andythenorth>and 27 million FS requests for extra shit to fix that
03:26<andythenorth>frosch has right idea for roads: upgrade instead of convert
03:26<andythenorth>no stuck vehicles
03:27<V453000>so if you convert rail to maglev, the vehicles would just continue running?
03:29<V453000>idea isn't dumb, the rails are kind of just a visual replacement except vehicles can't run on the other ones ... I can see some people rage about how it does not make sense though, and to some degree they would also be right because it further makes them really just a graphical replacement :D
03:29<V453000>if that makes any sense
03:33<andythenorth>upgrade would only work if the railtypes were compatible
03:33<andythenorth>so if someone defines RAIL -> MGLV as compatible, then yeah
03:33<andythenorth>otherwise nah
03:33<V453000>ok so how do I convert rail to maglev? :D
03:34<andythenorth>some kind of upgrade tool
03:34<andythenorth>instead of convert
03:34<andythenorth>details to be worked out tbh
03:34<andythenorth>current set up is bollocks
03:34<andythenorth>like, remove ~80% of yak-shaving because can drag monorail over whole map
03:34<andythenorth>but then all trains lost, broken
03:34<@peter1138>roads are different to rails
03:34<andythenorth>players complains
03:35<@peter1138>players are stupid
03:35<andythenorth>$everyone is stupid :)
03:35<andythenorth>basic premise
03:35<@peter1138>get rid of the convert tool
03:35<@peter1138>manual replacement only
03:36<andythenorth>overbuilding is already implemented
03:36*andythenorth never knew that
03:36<@peter1138>well i guess the upgrade only if compatible idea makes sense
03:36<V453000>well all trains are lost when player builds 1 signals in the wrong direction :P
03:36<andythenorth>RAIL -> ELRL, just by overbuilding
03:36<V453000>it does make sense
03:36<andythenorth>convert tool never needed
03:36<@peter1138>andythenorth, yes
03:37<@peter1138>but with that players would scream too
03:37<andythenorth>what else does game do that I don’t know :P
03:37<@peter1138>when they can't convert from elrail to maglev
03:37<andythenorth>overbuilding every track piece :)
03:37<@peter1138>we should give the player a character that walks around the map
03:38<andythenorth>call him Steve
03:38<andythenorth>all is well in best of all possible worlds
03:38<@peter1138>yeah and then steve has to walk to each piece of track
03:38<@peter1138>and then upgrade each piece
03:38<andythenorth>navigate with cursor keys
03:38<andythenorth>or build in dungeon style
03:38<andythenorth>‘go north'
03:38<andythenorth>‘overbuild track bits’
03:39<@peter1138>err, i was going to go to work. oops.
03:40<andythenorth>V453000: how to separate fast and slow trains in game?
03:40<andythenorth>assuming same railtype?
03:40<andythenorth>some pre-signal crap?
03:40<@peter1138>build separate networks
03:40<V453000>you simply don't do that shit
03:40<@peter1138>those programmable signals probably allow it
03:40*andythenorth usually builds separate networks
03:40<V453000>you can use waypoints and conditional orders but if you are separating trains, then why not separate the whole network already
03:41*andythenorth considering high-speed for Iron Horse, on dedicated railtype
03:41<andythenorth>no cross-compatibility
03:41<@peter1138>mainly cos people want one giant network with automatic prioritisation
03:41*andythenorth has nothing
03:41<V453000>well, then they should get trains with same speed :)
03:42<andythenorth>+ lots to all points
03:42<V453000>is why people like 160km/h trains, they often have both pax and freight counterparts
03:42<V453000>or similar combinations
03:42<andythenorth>Horse deliberately designed to mess up networks with different railtypes
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03:44<V453000>ok so grass is shitgray, snow and desert have colour :)
03:44<V453000>isn't that bad
03:52*andythenorth adds High Speed Tracks
03:52<andythenorth>or not
03:53<andythenorth>nah probably just not fun
04:16<V453000>omg so looking forward to bve done with this brix nonsense
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04:24<V453000>all the recolouring hacks
04:24<V453000>it's such a mess, especially when they start mixing like on tunnels
04:31<andythenorth>back to trains fun?
04:32*andythenorth biab
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05:36*andythenorth needs to figure out some train class crap then
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05:42<__ln__>good morning Wolf01
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06:09<andythenorth>so last generation messes up my scheme
06:09<andythenorth>if speed goes to 180mph+
06:09<andythenorth>that’s only electric trains
06:10<andythenorth>previous generations offer fast electric, and fast steam/diesel alternative
06:10<andythenorth>Slavish Consistency
06:11<Wolf01>andythenorth: what do you think? <Wolf01> Maybe I could make a rooster of the most strangest locomotives I find, like the big boy cab forward, the "half locomotive", the 4-units articulated, some weird steam prototypes and some huge gas turbine electric locomotives
06:11<andythenorth>like HEQS, but trains
06:11<andythenorth>you’ll have to fake all the stats for it to actually be fun :)
06:11<andythenorth>never-built-prototypes are also good
06:13<__ln__>Wolf01: something like
06:14<Wolf01> mmmh monorail... not, vertical placed rail
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06:16<V453000>what's the issue with 180+ andy?
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06:18<andythenorth>realism says no diesel trains that fast
06:18<andythenorth>so breaks my set rules
06:18<V453000>jesus fuck
06:18<V453000>well in that case :D
06:19<andythenorth>also 180mph+ just bores me a bit
06:19<andythenorth>dunno why
06:19<andythenorth>it’s dull
06:19<V453000>I think you just go unused to it
06:19<V453000>but that's honestly a bigger reason
06:19<V453000>than "realizm meh"
06:19<V453000>if you personally don't like it, that's enough
06:20<andythenorth>gas turbine trains :P
06:20<andythenorth>slug trains!
06:20<V453000>omg he is coming to consciousness!
06:21<andythenorth>I am woke
06:21<andythenorth>super duper gas turbine train, 150mph irl
06:22<andythenorth>but all speeds are cheating in Horse, so 180mph :P
06:22<Wolf01> I think it's getting out of hand
06:22<V453000>well having only electric engines in the late years isn't against anything
06:23<Wolf01>But could be a roster by itself
06:23<V453000>I like it XD note-rt.gif - Any attempt to inject an element of reason into this series of pages will be forcibly rejected!
06:23<andythenorth>Wolf01: badass
06:23<V453000>yeah that also caught my attention
06:23<andythenorth>fake stuff is great
06:24<andythenorth>this is boss
06:24<V453000>exact openttd scale
06:24<V453000>officially approved
06:28<Wolf01> 2-4-6-8-10-12
06:28<andythenorth>there’s way more
06:29<andythenorth>Horse fixed then, just copy those pages
06:30<Wolf01> Interesting
06:31<andythenorth>totally lost in that site now
06:31<Wolf01>Me too
06:32<V453000>pretty awesome site for inspiration
06:33<Wolf01>Too bad the site is like a word document
06:39<Wolf01> ahah
06:41<Wolf01> XD
06:45<Wolf01> <- good source of lateral views
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07:23<Wolf01>Mmmh, Shay, Garratt, Climax, what am I missing?
07:23<Wolf01>Lol ln
07:27<andythenorth>Cab Forward
07:27<Wolf01>Yeah, both found yesterday
07:30<Wolf01>It looks too much "classic"
07:30<Wolf01>I'm looking for strange ones
07:32<V453000>I think the rough idea of a scheme is already good enough for what you have, if you are looking at pictures, I would just start drawing right away, and fill in the scheme over time
07:32<andythenorth>retcon the scheme :P
07:32<Wolf01>Oh the one without fireplace how it was called?
07:34<Wolf01> :D
07:35<Wolf01> even better, looks like it was stung by a bee
07:36<andythenorth>^ that one I was going to add to Road Hog
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08:11<V453000>omg tropic tree chooser is such a load of wtf :D
08:11<V453000>I don't even know if it's actually bad
08:11<V453000>but some of trees just seem to be so rare
08:11<V453000>while some of them are all over the place
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08:53<V453000>I think the grass is awesome
08:54<V453000>not sure if palm trees should be thrown away due to the scale shit
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08:54<V453000>at the same time I feel like when you see the other objects like houses or the palm trees, that's what gives you the idea that the plants are so large and overgrown
08:55<Wolf01>Grass/flowers are too tall or palms are too small
08:56<V453000>not sure if you read what I just said XD
08:56<andythenorth>small fat purple plants winning most
08:56<Wolf01>I was writing it while looking at the screenshot, I read after I pressed enter
08:56<V453000>ok :)
08:57<V453000>maybe just throwing the palm trees away and substituting them with grass is better
08:57<V453000>but yeah this is the concept
09:00<V453000>so, remove palm trees?
09:03<Wolf01>What else can you do?
09:04<V453000>anything :)
09:05<andythenorth>what’s wrong with palm trees?
09:06<andythenorth>is all fine
09:06<V453000>well the scale of all the plants is clearly massive
09:06<V453000>and the palms in contrast are tiny
09:11<andythenorth>looks chibi
09:11<andythenorth>bonsai palsm
09:11<Wolf01>Need NotTrees, with bigger sprites
09:11<andythenorth>palms *
09:11<V453000>I could probably make bigger sprites
09:11<V453000>but then I would make less of the palm trees, just rather rare, but really big
09:12<Wolf01>With NotTrees that wouldn't be a problem, you would be able to set when they could be planted
09:15<V453000>well that's not in my reality now, just want to make a base set thing :)
09:15<V453000>even if there would be NotTrees
09:16<Wolf01>That's the point, we'll remove trees from the game, so you will be forced to make a grf for those
09:16<Wolf01>It's "not" not "new"
09:16<V453000>wtf does that solve :D
09:20<andythenorth>a bug
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09:21<Wolf01>I think that is a problem of the AI, but also the squirrel vm should handle the crash more nicely
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09:44<supermop>i like the cacti V453000
09:45<V453000>moar work on those needs to be done too :) but yeah, a base
09:45<supermop>the fly traps shouldn't grow in desert transition areas tho
09:45<V453000>no way to limit that
09:49<supermop>do transitions get all of the rainforest trees?
09:49<V453000>I think so
09:49<supermop>we need NotTreeTypes
09:50<supermop>maybe add some maguey
09:50<supermop>-> mezcal
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11:04<supermop>should i make 'correct' purchase menu sprites for mopRV?
11:04<supermop>or is it dead?\
11:06<andythenorth>good q
11:07<andythenorth>could spend the time making Horse suggestions instead :P
11:07*andythenorth works better when rejecting other people’s ideas :)
11:07<andythenorth>creates a stimulus
11:08<supermop>didn't i share my japan horse roster with you like a year ago?
11:08<supermop>google doc?
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11:12<supermop>not google, on dev zon
11:13<V453000>here I am complaining about how much work trees are
11:13<V453000>for my train set I will need the same amount of sprites for engines ._.
11:13<V453000>well I guess it's actually /8 since the rotations make themselves :)
11:14<V453000>engine sprites: 432, cargo sprites: 12800
11:14<V453000>sounds about right XD
11:15<V453000>the cargoes are probably going to be even more, the list is using FIRS2 amount
11:15<@Alberth>rotations only work correctly if you also model the backside :)
11:16<V453000>the front/backside is easy, problem is making a model which works in both diagonal and straigth track due to the stretching
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11:16<@Alberth>ah, yes, the nice diagonal mess :p
11:17<andythenorth>just render them twice
11:17<supermop>V453000: do like pikka and just fuck it
11:18<V453000>yeah just like ignoring 8bpp
11:18<V453000>no thanks :P
11:18<V453000>not spending hundreds of hours with something and not doing it properly
11:19<V453000>esp since this train set I am treating as my masterpiece
11:19<V453000>NUTS is great, this has to be shitpants glorious
11:20<supermop>patch game to fix diagonals
11:21<supermop>seemed like pika was trying to force a move in that direction
11:21<V453000>yeah that's not the way to do it :P
11:21<supermop>hmm my roster has a fair amount of 5 and 7/8
11:21<andythenorth>V453000: supermop
11:21<supermop>i guess that won't fly with andy anymore
11:22*V453000 laughs due to his evil influence
11:24<supermop>i never even got as far as convincing him on EMUs that are longer than one car for the japan roster
11:25<supermop>andythenorth: the 'don't work with assholes' poster is a bit ricj
11:25<Wolf01>andythenorth: did you see any photo from skaerbaek?
11:25<supermop>i wish i was afforded that discretion
11:25<supermop>for me that poster would have to be shortened to 'don't work' to remain viable
11:26<andythenorth>4/8, 6/8, 10/8, 12/8, 16/8
11:26<andythenorth>also I worked out that articulated 2*5/8 is interesting
11:26<andythenorth>but I didn’t use it because articulated seemed weird when I tried it
11:26<andythenorth>Wolf01: no
11:27<andythenorth>V453000: nobody looks at \ / anyway
11:27<andythenorth>just make – view epic
11:27<Wolf01>My groups are showing some on whatsapp
11:27<V453000>I'm just going to avoid too round shapes
11:27<supermop>andythenorth: love it when rich designers say shit like 'i should have been/could have been and architect'
11:28<supermop>because it seems like it would have been so easy to them
11:28<supermop>that's just what we need,
11:28<andythenorth>I could have been an architect
11:29<andythenorth>except I stopped trying :P
11:30<supermop>so what is an emu in iron crane?
11:30<supermop>rake of 10 individual electric rail cars is dumb
11:30<andythenorth>single car?
11:30<supermop>and too expensive
11:30<andythenorth>I wondered about that with the railcars
11:31<andythenorth>I think it’s neat being able to choose lengths in 8/8 though
11:31<supermop>UK has/had short 1 and 2 car dmus running about
11:31<supermop>japan also has 1 car dmus
11:31<andythenorth>sets with fixed consists > 16/8 irritate me
11:31<andythenorth>1 tile is fine
11:31<supermop>but the bread and butter of 'japan-rail-ness' is EMU sets
11:32<andythenorth>solving this does actually solve my current Horse problem
11:32<andythenorth>for same reason
11:32<andythenorth>how to do, e.g. some (fake) Eurostar thing?
11:32<supermop>locomotives and rakes for UK roster
11:32<andythenorth>individual engines?
11:32<andythenorth>dual head engines?
11:32<andythenorth>powered carriages?
11:32<supermop>eurostar is locomotives
11:32<andythenorth>ordinary carriages, and cb 36 bollocks?
11:32<supermop>unless you mean the newest
11:33<andythenorth>ok, well maybe class 800 thing then, all coaches powered
11:33<andythenorth>or Voyager or Adelante
11:33<supermop>maybe it is doubled like the asiastar
11:33<andythenorth>all have engines or motors under every coach
11:33<supermop>that is an emu buddy
11:33<andythenorth>but the front and rear coaches are pointy
11:34<andythenorth>and the running costs scale wrong if building a consist out of 8/8 units
11:34<supermop>either 1) powered coach becomes pointy when at end
11:34<V453000>nuff irc, back to trees
11:34<supermop>or 2) pointy bit and non pointy are separate vehicles
11:35<supermop>or 3) you have to just buy in 2 tile chunks and deal with it?
11:35<supermop>i had shinkansen as a 4 tile chunk in my concept, but never decided how emu should work
11:36<supermop>shikansen sets are pretty long
11:36<supermop>either 8 or 16 cars
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11:36<supermop>idk if they ever run 16+16
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11:38<supermop>82ft cars
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12:11<supermop>how long is purchase sprite?
12:12<frosch123>as long as you want
12:12<frosch123>the gui adjusts, it just looks silly when different grfs use different widths
12:12<supermop>also playing a steeltown game last night with my RVs and UKRS2
12:13<supermop>one mop road train in 1960 carries more than a 5 tile Coal train
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13:32<supermop>quiet hour
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14:20<V453000>point: the 8bpp converter I have is fucking amazing
14:20<V453000>8bpp 'just works'
14:21<V453000>of course it's not better than 32bpp simply because it would have to be hand-drawn to be better, but shit it's functional
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15:37<supermop>hmm wonder if i should composite purchase sprites
15:39<frosch123>could be useful for stuff like steam/electric icons
15:40<frosch123>but i am not exactly sure the sprite stack will work there
15:40<frosch123>purchase list is very special
15:41<V453000>yeah gives you a lot of things to do
15:41<V453000>or you can visualize empty/full wagon
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15:57<supermop>currently i have trailers that change graphics based on build year
15:57<supermop>as do cabs
15:57<supermop>so i could change those
15:57<yorick_>why not move code/issues/PR/code/releases to github? seems to work well for openrct. I think having github code review instead of patches submitted to tt-forums or FS might lower the bar for code contribution and review
15:58<supermop>based on current year
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>how does that need compositing?
16:12<__ln__>yorick_: what do reviews matter when you still need someone to actually commit.
16:22<yorick_>__ln__: code is getting written, patchpacks happen, but not much is getting into trunk, citing code style or completeness issues
16:23<__ln__>how would github help with that?
16:24<yorick_>for one, it would provide a better interface than raw .diffs for most people. it would also allow anyone with a github account (which is lots of people) to contribute with just a few button-presses
16:25<yorick_>the pull request thing allows inline commenting, auto-building/testing and one-click merging, for example
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>i think you're trying to solve a social problem with technology
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16:40<V453000>yeah for example I hate andythenorth, I bought a new computer and it didn't help
16:40<V453000>oh he's not here :(
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16:42<yorick_>Eddi|zuHause: what's the social problem? you can get more people contributing if you lower the barrier to entry
16:47<Wolf01>yorick_: I don't think it changes at all, also, it might be confusing with different clones, for example you open a pull request in trunk for a new feature, then patchpackXYZ applies the patch, where you continue to follow it?
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16:51<supermop>should the purchase sprite be very long (>64 px) to fit road trains and long trams in their entirety,
16:51<supermop>or should i cut/fade them off like some sets do?
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>yorick_: even if that were true, a) it increases the number of submissions faster than people who can review them show up, and b) it may lower the quality of submissions even further
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: i'd fade/cut them off
16:53<V453000>... if the vehicle is clearly recognizable
16:53<V453000>might also be nice to actually show the full length it it matters
16:53<supermop>should be fine with road trains, as it will at least hint that there are 3 trailers
16:53<V453000>depends how much space you need :) if you have short names it should be alright
16:54<V453000>OH XD
16:54<supermop>with the long trams, i dont know
16:54<V453000>probably need some smart solution then
16:54<supermop>long and medium trams of the same generation will probably look pretty similar
16:54<V453000>shorten texts, fit moar trams :D
16:55<supermop>V453000: but i like my verbose names
16:55<supermop>although currently trams don't have as good of names
16:56<V453000>well then you have to like verbose names or fat ass purchase sprites :D one of them gets more love
16:56<V453000>can't marry both
16:57<V453000>anyway I go sleep
16:57<V453000>big time progress on trees today
16:57<V453000>good day
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>with CETS i wanted to do something like "<__|/12/|__>"
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>especially since i wanted to make some long chains in various lengths
16:59<supermop>architecturally thats how you'd do it - use break lines to omit the stuff that is not a relevant condition
17:00<supermop>like a long beam fastened to something on both sides, you'd cut out the middle of the beam to focus on the ends where the drawing is trying to convey some information
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, pretty much that
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17:12<supermop>with a road train, however, the last trailer is not that interesting
17:12<supermop>an indication of total length is helpful though
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>well, you could just put the number at the end then
17:12<supermop>especially if you want to make sure to leave enough room for a loading truck to not block some intersection
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>or you can just put the length in the purchase text
17:13<supermop>playing with the road trains, i find that they sort or break games
17:13<supermop>sort of
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---Logclosed Fri Sep 22 00:00:07 2017