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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-10-12

---Logopened Thu Oct 12 00:00:35 2017
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07:36<V453000>Lejving master race is around
07:36<V453000>all bow
07:36<Lejving>this is true
07:37<V453000>shit m8
07:37<Lejving>looking sick AF
07:38<V453000>kinda want to finish it ASAP but there's always fuckload more
07:38<V453000>but slowly slowly
07:47<Wolf01>Why do maglev track junctions have the grey track part?
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08:09<V453000>Wolf01: only way to make it work properly
08:09<V453000>it just lights up when it's active [built]
08:10<V453000>point is, whenever you give any height to the tracks, they will start overlapping in junction and it is impossible to make it look proper
08:10<V453000>so you can make the setups manually in 3D and give them a flat top part which overlaps - and since it's flat it doesn't break by overlapping
08:11<V453000>I think this solution is really good, the colours are enough to see what's up, too
08:15<Lejving>is this even a question Wolf01 ? maglev is more fragile than the other materials to make track with, so need an extra support piece to make it more rigid
08:15<V453000>damn straight
08:15<V453000>lawyered by Lejving
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08:39<andythenorth>110mph freight trains in Horse bother me
08:39<andythenorth>IRL gets 75mph
08:43<V453000>this isn't working andythenorth :D
08:43<V453000>realism boggled
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09:20<andythenorth>V453000 too true
09:20<andythenorth>what to do :P
09:23<andythenorth>speed parameter? o_O
09:28<Wolf01>Speed by colour
09:28<Wolf01>Red = fast
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09:33<supermop>so i drew a locomotive
09:33<supermop>only 2 views though
09:34<supermop>and already i am thinking, i need to draw 3-4 liveries for this, rather than 'i need to draw 3-4 more locomotives'
09:35<Wolf01>You want fast vehicles but not much cargo you chose red second company colour, yellow increase cargo but slow down, blue boosts ships, azure boosts planes, green lowers running costs, pink more pigs, brown shit
09:35<Wolf01>You will pass your entire life to draw liveries :D
09:36<supermop>you can actually have HE vary my CC
09:37<supermop>oddly enough
09:37<supermop>i guess you could consistently do that, for MP games
09:37<supermop>like one player is faster, one player has better cargo decay, etc etc
09:39<supermop>Wolf01: in italian which cc is called 'azure'?
09:39<supermop>light blue?
09:40<Wolf01>I think yes
09:40<supermop>tbh the english name light blue is misleading because it is slightly turquoise, not just a lighter blue
09:40<Wolf01>Or cyan
09:40<supermop>its definitely kinda cyan
09:42<Wolf01>Mmmh no, cyan is it's own, more like sky blue, azure is more like cerulean blue but lighter
09:45<supermop>english just has 'dark blue' 'blue' and 'light blue' i think
09:45<supermop>pretty uninspired, when you consider how many different words for shades of blue english language has
09:46<Wolf01>We have something like 20 names for blue shade
09:46<supermop>and also 'dark green' 'green' and 'light green'
09:46<supermop>i assumed the original names were aimed more at children who might not know words like 'cyan' and 'cerulean'
09:47<supermop>'yellow' and 'orange' bothers me
09:47<Wolf01>And every shade has its own dark, normal, light tones (which are like 5 and not 3)
09:47<supermop>the 'orange' is clearly just a slightly richer yellow
09:47<Wolf01>Yes, orange is bright yellow
09:47<Wolf01>I always found that weird in OTTD
09:47<Wolf01>Or TT at all
09:48<andythenorth>all colours must use Lego palette references
09:48<supermop>which, fine, there is no orange in the pallette, why not use and adjective+yellow for name
09:49<supermop>andy: CC= transparent bright green
09:50<Wolf01>I would like also black, and 2cc trans-yellow
09:50<Wolf01>Blacktron transports
09:50<supermop>haha yess
09:50<supermop>what about black+yellow+red
09:50<supermop>for old blacktron
09:51<supermop>oh thats what you meant
09:51<supermop> was thinking of the 90s green blacktron
09:52<supermop>who for somereason switched to raglan sleeve shirts with team logo instead of spacesuits
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09:55<Wolf01> why I don't have any memory of this cool one?
10:03<andythenorth>that one is quite boss
10:03<supermop>2nd interview at a place today
10:03<supermop>but it is at a gd wagamama
10:03<supermop>who schedules 2nd interviews as lunch at a chain restaurant
10:04<supermop>am i supposed to bring drawings again? and lay them out on table to get ramen broth splashed all over??
10:05<andythenorth>I have done lunch interviews
10:05<andythenorth>(for being hired, not for hiring)
10:05<andythenorth>it’s usually a social fit question
10:07<supermop>andythenorth: yeah - but i usually think of those as either a 1st, or even pre-first interview, or a last interview
10:07<supermop>like to meet other people on team
10:07<supermop>not a 2nd technical interview with the same person as before
10:08<SpComb>I think my only lunch interview was after signing but before the first work day. I think it was also my idea :P
10:08<supermop>like we did run late last time and maybe he wants more time to look at drawings
10:09<supermop>but idk why not do that in office so i can meet some of the other workers
10:10<supermop>SpComb: yeah i've done them basically either before interviewing for real, or after essentially already getting the job
10:10<supermop>like 'ok we like you, lets talk it over so we can be sure you want to work here' etc
10:13<supermop>i brought top half of my surface book in
10:13<supermop>so i can throw some stuff on there to review
10:14<supermop>i can't imagine looking through drawings at a tiny 2-person table on paper
10:20<Samu>who can take a look at my pseudo-code
10:21<Samu>what kind of formula do I have?
10:21<Samu>i wonder if it's flawed
10:41<Samu>@calc 5000 + 16*5000*2
10:41<@DorpsGek>Samu: 165000
10:41<Samu>@calc 5000 + 16*5000*8
10:41<@DorpsGek>Samu: 645000
10:42<Samu>crap, im doing this wrong
10:42<Samu>@calc 5000 + 8*5000*8
10:42<@DorpsGek>Samu: 325000
10:42<Samu>@calc 5000 + 8*5000*4 + 8*5000*4
10:42<@DorpsGek>Samu: 325000
10:43<Samu>doesn't look flawed
10:44<V453000>36/8 ?
10:44<andythenorth>probably 10/8 :P
10:44<andythenorth>but yeah, my 8/8 tank cars look chibi by comparison :P
10:45<Samu>someone help me explain my formula. I know it works, but I don't know how to explain it, lol
10:46<supermop>Samu: i have no idea what that does
10:47<Samu>okay, will try to explain
10:47<Samu>it calculates running cost of a train, while simulating costs for parts that don't specify a running cost (for example, wagons)
10:49<Samu>first thing the function do is getting the sum of all running costs that are specified (cal_cost)
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10:50<Samu>once I get a cal_cost, i then try to simulate costs for those parts that don't have it, by basing it on cal_cost
10:51<Samu>ind_cost = (unc_len * cal_cost * ind_len) / (VEHICLE_LENGTH * divisor * 2)
10:51<Samu>this is where I fail to explain
10:52<Samu>ind_cost is the simulated cost for the current part that doesn't have a cost
10:53<Samu>ind_len is the length of the current part I'm working with
10:53<Samu>unc_len is the length sum of all parts without running costs
10:56<Samu>ind_cost then goes through the newgrf filter and comes up with unc_cost
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10:57<Samu>the sum of all unc_costs will yield the simulated cost of all parts that don't specify a running cost
10:58<Samu>final cost is then cost = unc_cost (simulated costs) + cal_cost (costs that are specified)
10:59<crem>Sounds too simple. No integrals or whatever.
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11:00<Samu>my question is ... what kind of formula do I have, how do I display it
11:00<Samu>for documentation purposes
11:02<Samu>ever increasing?
11:02<Samu>how do I identify it
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11:04<supermop>oh andy is gone
11:04<supermop>Wolf01: ^ locomotive
11:04<supermop>needs more liveries
11:07<Wolf01>BTW looks nice, even outside its contest
11:07<Wolf01>Also I should continue my voxel series
11:09<supermop>other variant will have yellow ends
11:10<supermop>this one should maybe have red buffer bars
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11:11<supermop>idk what a 'new' tiny diesel would look like,
11:11<supermop>probably the same
11:11<supermop>no sense putting two cabs on something so small
11:13<supermop>nor would it need another hood
11:13<supermop>maybe it will just be a 4/8 version
11:15<supermop>hi Alberth
11:16<@Alberth>steam tram?
11:17<supermop>Alberth: it is steam powered and running on tramway, but i'd say it's a bit big to call just a tram
11:17<supermop>the thing i drew was a diesel
11:19<supermop>the thing i can't decide is how such a tramway diesel from 1940 and 2020 would differ
11:19<supermop>visually they's likely look the same
11:20<@Alberth>random guess, I'd expect the 2020 one to have a much smaller diesel for the same performance
11:21<@Alberth>so they'd look more regular trams, and have more capacity than the 1940 one
11:22<supermop>Alberth: these are more like locomotives for dock/industrial tramways
11:22<supermop>so i can add more wagons
11:23<supermop>but i'd like the locomotive to look different too
11:23<supermop>i guess it could be like a very short normal tram body
11:23<supermop>that pulls wagons
11:24<supermop>and with big windshield on the cab for visibility
11:24<supermop>to run over fewer people
11:24<supermop>or the engine hood could be smaller, and more platform space to stand on
11:28<supermop>i need to do the same for electric too
11:31<Samu>The sum of all ind_len becomes unc_len
11:32<Samu>to the power of 2
11:32<Samu>means that it's exponential?
11:33<@Alberth>nice shunter :)
11:34<supermop>i take 'exponential' to mean stuff more like 'whatever^x' rather than x^2
11:34<@Alberth>Samu: no, x**2 is quadratic
11:34<Samu>quadratic, ty
11:34<supermop>i'd call x^2 geometric if i was describing growth
11:35<supermop>if my cost is going up y=n*x, i call it linear growth
11:35<Wolf01><supermop> <- is a shaw locomotive converted to tram?
11:35<@Alberth>never heard of that term, but fair enough
11:35<Wolf01>o/ Alberth
11:35<supermop>if my cost is y=x^n, i'd call it geometric growth
11:36<supermop>and if my cost is y=n^x, i call it exponential
11:36<Samu>unc_cost = unc_len * cal_cost * ind_len_1 + unc_len * cal_cost * ind_len_2 +... unc_len * cal_cost * ind_len_x
11:36<Samu>the sum of all ind_len becomes unc_len
11:36<supermop>Wolf01: i think it is purpose built for 10th avenue/west end line
11:37<@Alberth>so geometric is more general, as it holds for any n, rather than quadratic where n==2 only
11:37<supermop>which was mainline freight running on streets in manhattan
11:37<supermop>people kept getting run over, so it had a lot of skirting
11:38<supermop>eventually they just elevated the line above the street
11:38<@Alberth>Samu don't repeat the same calculation multiple times, it's very unreadable
11:38<supermop>and had siding that went into the 2nd/3rd floors of warehouses along the way
11:38<@Alberth>use parenthesis to group the sum instead, before multiplying
11:39<supermop>ok lunch interview time
11:40<@Alberth>interrogate the lunchc :p
11:40<@Alberth>good luck
11:41<Samu>how do i do that with parentesis?
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11:43<Samu>unc_cost = unc_len * cal_cost * (ind_len_1 + ind_len_2 + ... + ind_len_x) where the sum of all ind_len = unc_len?
11:45<Samu>which is basically the same as saying unc_cost = unc_len ^ 2 * cal_cost, right?
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11:46<Samu>oh, and the divisor
11:47<Samu>unc_cost = unc_len ^ 2 * cal_cost / divisor
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11:48<Samu>i'm gonna simplify the divisor math, it's a bit confusing right now
11:48<Samu>divisor = (VEHICLE_LENGTH << 5) * _settings_game.vehicle.train_extra_runcost_divisor;
11:49<Samu>much simpler
11:49<Wolf01>Totally clear
11:49<Samu>Money ind_cost = (unc_len * cal_cost * ind_len) / divisor;
11:51<Samu>VEHICLE_LENGTH = 8
11:51<Samu>@calc (8 << 5) * 7
11:51<@DorpsGek>Samu: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
11:52<Samu>@calc 256 * 7
11:52<@DorpsGek>Samu: 1792
11:52<Samu>exactly what I wanted
11:54<Samu>final_cost = cost_at_this_point + cost_at_this_point * length_of_parts_without_cost^2 / (256 * divisor);
11:57<Samu>@calc 3445 + 3445*24*24 / (256 * 7)
11:57<@DorpsGek>Samu: 4552.32142857
11:58<Samu>uh... nope
11:58<Wolf01>(I still think that the length of a wagon should not be related to the maintenance cost)
11:59<Samu>@calc 3445 + ((3445*24*24) / (256*7))
11:59<@DorpsGek>Samu: 4552.32142857
11:59<Samu>it should be 4552
11:59<Samu>oh nvm... i'm blind
11:59<Samu>fukcl lol
11:59<Samu>it's correct
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12:02<Samu>@calc (4552 - 3445) / 3
12:02<@DorpsGek>Samu: 369
12:02<Samu>correct, cost per wagon
12:02<Samu>3 wagons
12:06<Samu>now, one last thing I need to do, is make the length conversion
12:06<Samu>8 is equivalent to 0,5
12:06<Samu>16 is 1
12:07<Samu>max train lenght of 7 is the same as a length of 16*7
12:07<Samu>@calc 16*7
12:07<@DorpsGek>Samu: 112
12:09<Samu>@calc 3445 + 3445*1.5*1.5 / (16 * 7)
12:09<@DorpsGek>Samu: 3514.20758929
12:09<Samu>nop :(
12:12<Samu>@calc 3445 + 3445*1.5*1.5 / 7
12:12<@DorpsGek>Samu: 4552.32142857
12:12<Samu>ah, got it
12:13<Samu>final_cost = cost_at_this_point + cost_at_this_point * length_of_parts_without_cost^2 / divisor
12:13<Samu>lenght is in tile units, mucho clean
12:21<Samu>Alberth: was my formula geometric? quadratic, exponential or linear, I didn't quite get it
12:24<Samu>@calc 3445 + 3445*0.5*0.5 / 7
12:24<@DorpsGek>Samu: 3568.03571429
12:24<Samu>@calc 3445 + 3445*1*1 / 7
12:24<@DorpsGek>Samu: 3937.14285714
12:24<Samu>@calc 3445 + 3445*1.5*1.5 / 7
12:24<@DorpsGek>Samu: 4552.32142857
12:25<Samu>@calc 3445 + 3445*2*2 / 7
12:26<@DorpsGek>Samu: 5413.57142857
12:26<Samu>@calc 3445 + 3445*2.5*2.5 / 7
12:26<@DorpsGek>Samu: 6520.89285714
12:27<Samu>@calc 3445 + 3445*6.5*6.5 / 7
12:27<@DorpsGek>Samu: 24238.0357143
12:28<@Alberth> geometric growth was said, but I don't know what that means, you'd have to look it up
12:30<@Alberth>x**2 is quadratic
12:30<@Alberth>2**x is exponential
12:30<@Alberth>(not only for 2, but for any fixed number > 1 )
12:31<@Alberth>linear is 2*x
12:31<@Alberth>(also for any fixed value 2, and otherwise (except 0)
12:32<@Rubidium>geometric ~== exponential
12:32<Samu>one thing for sure, it's not linear
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12:32<@Alberth>yep, not linear :)
12:32<@Rubidium>Exponential growth: In the case of a discrete domain of definition with equal intervals, it is also called geometric growth
12:32<@Alberth>RB: oh, I only know the term as stochastic distribution
12:33<@Rubidium>ofcourse this is all highly unreliable since I'm quoting wikipedia ;)
12:34<@Alberth>it's smarter than any of us :)
12:35<@Rubidium>interesting definition of smarter
12:36<Wolf01>Mmmh, please stop with math, I don't want to lose the rest of the evening on numberphile again :P
12:37<@Rubidium>shall we then talk about time zones and push you to computerphile?
12:37<Samu>wish i had excelt installed
12:38<Wolf01>No, enough *phile for a while... ok, maybe some "steam locomotive"phile
12:38<@Alberth>that's andys department :)
12:46<Wolf01>Mmh, is it friday yet?
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12:52<Wolf01>Probably I'll ask it again in 2 hours
12:53<Samu>i made a graph in some website
12:53<Samu>so that's what it looks
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13:12<Samu>call me dumb, but I think it's exponential
13:15<Samu> if it's not, plz reply there
13:15<@Alberth>it is, plot 2**x
13:16<@Alberth>latter grows faster though
13:16<@Alberth>for large enough x, at least
13:17<@Alberth>13*13=169, 2**13 = 8192
13:27<Samu>what does it mean **, 2 asterists
13:31<@Alberth>ie 'power' operator
13:32<Samu>i didn't update savegame version, dunno if it was increased in the meanwhile, grr
13:32<@Alberth>some languages use ^ for XOR, so it can't be used for power operator
13:34<Samu>ah, it's still 196, lucky me
13:34<Samu>don't need to change
13:35<Samu>oh, it's not 27816 though, lol
13:36<Samu>comment should say 27925, grr, is it worth a patch?
13:36<Samu>doesn't affect anything
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27926 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2017-10-12 19:45:42 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>slovenian: 2 changes by Necrolyte
13:45<@DorpsGek>polish: 12 changes by McZapkie
13:45<@DorpsGek>hebrew: 34 changes by dnd_man
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14:12<Wolf01>Mmmh, should I really limit the height to 8 voxels?
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14:39<Wolf01> mmmh, I would go up to 24 instead of 16 (2 voxels are 1 px)
14:42<Wolf01> this one is better
14:43<andythenorth>such train
14:43<Wolf01>It doesn't even cost so much
14:45*andythenorth was thinking of drawing it
14:50<Wolf01>Ooooh big update for Astroneer
14:51<Wolf01>Bye voxel trains
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15:02<supermop>andythenorth: what do modern tiny diesels look like
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15:03<andythenorth>you mean industrial ones?
15:04<supermop>one of those but from the 2010s or 20s instead of 1950s
15:06<andythenorth>look at Queensland sugar cane
15:06<andythenorth>and then reduce it 50%
15:06<supermop>do they have modern diesels on that?
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15:07<supermop>i want this train
15:12<andythenorth>loads of those on ebay :P
15:12<supermop>i want one that says Oahu
15:13<supermop>prefer one in 3' gauge, not HO
15:15<andythenorth>I wish my shell would stop crashing
15:16<andythenorth>and I wish my shift key worked
15:16<andythenorth>and my mac didn’t end my user session every 14 days
15:16<andythenorth>Apple is not what it was
15:16<supermop>buy a surface
15:17<andythenorth>I will find it hard to like
15:17<andythenorth>I am habituated and don’t want to change
15:17<supermop>most of the qld diesels look same shape - cab at one end, small nose hood, small platform
15:18<supermop>other than bigger windows, not sure how to differentiate
15:18<supermop>center cab makes no sense on something so short
15:18<supermop>idk what this is
15:19<andythenorth>robot train?
15:19<supermop>i guess the hood could get shorter
15:20<supermop>or i could have a fake tiny streamlined thing
15:20<supermop>assuming it 'goes faster'
15:21<supermop>then i can just glue two tram cabs together
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15:26<supermop>should i put a red buffer beam on my little class 04 thing
15:29<supermop>coffee time
15:34<andythenorth>supermop: no you should draw some Horse stuff
15:34<andythenorth>in the exact Horse style
15:34<andythenorth>[which is still evolving] :P
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15:43<supermop>these little guys would be cute working in multiple
15:43<supermop>like a tiny chinook
15:43<V453000>I hate them
15:43<V453000>no slugs
15:44<supermop>i can replace wheels with a gastropod foot?
15:44<supermop>actually i might draw log flume
15:44<V453000>XD haha
15:44<V453000>slug flume
15:47<supermop>seems like it would work
15:47<supermop>reuse slime for efficiency
15:47<supermop>i bet you could use eddi's turn magic for the slopes
15:48<supermop>so the logs pitch downward
15:48<supermop>could be a rail or a roadtype
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15:53<orberg>Hi, I made a (new) junction based on the motorway double diamond interchange, would there be interest in me adding it to the wiki?
15:54<orberg>I've got a compact, high speed, symmetric and asymmetric version
15:56<V453000>that's amazing
15:56<V453000>are you using original acceleration?
15:57<supermop>andythenorth: did they use dummies before the 1870s in the uk?
15:58<supermop>want to differentiate between 1860ish and 1890ish tram engines
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16:08<andythenorth>supermop: dunno :)
16:08<andythenorth>supermop: but you’d likely want this
16:12<andythenorth>you can’t draw anything useful in 4 px
16:16<V453000>u wot má
16:16<V453000>EZ 16px baller
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16:27*andythenorth hates drawing tank wagons :x
16:31<supermop>ugh i think im going to make this thing 4/8
16:32<supermop>cant fit extra platform onto 3/8 and have it look good
16:32<supermop>whereas first was [platform/nose][nose][cab]
16:33<supermop>i wanted to do [platform/nose][nose/cab][cab/platform]
16:34<supermop>the .5/8 platforms dont really register in \ view though
16:35<supermop>railing covers it up
16:35<andythenorth>4/8 is best
16:36<andythenorth>3/8 is waste of time
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16:42<supermop>bigger locomotive feels like progress
16:46<andythenorth>can use bulk
16:46<andythenorth>same sprite with and without 1px platforms at each end
16:47<andythenorth>looks quite different
16:58<supermop>i should code some of these
17:06<supermop>heqs style refit to all?
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17:06<supermop>or hog style different trams for different wagons
17:08<andythenorth>how many you got?
17:09<andythenorth>I prefer classes of wagon
17:09<supermop>can make as many as i like i guess
17:10<supermop>can reuse old style rigid truck beds as 'wagons'
17:10<supermop>but i was thinking open/tank/flat/box/hopper
17:11<supermop>5 trams per power type per generation really pads out an already too long purchase list though
17:11<supermop>as trucks are something like 8 types per generation
17:13<andythenorth>is lots
17:15<supermop>too much
17:15<supermop>also stands to reason, if you buy a bus, you don't expect it to haul coal
17:15<supermop>but buy a little harbor locomotive, and you expect it to tug whatever shows up in port
17:16<supermop>but i intentionally nerf open trucks to be worst-at-everything
17:16<supermop>and hauling oil from tanker ship to inland refinery in barrels looks dumb
17:18<supermop>hauling metal coils in an open wagon instead of a flat car also looks dumb
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17:26<andythenorth>bed :)
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17:29<Wolf01>Yeah, Astroneer is really better now
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---Logclosed Fri Oct 13 00:00:37 2017