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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-10-23

---Logopened Mon Oct 23 00:00:51 2017
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02:39<joseph222>Is it working
02:39<joseph222>I am testing it on a app
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03:33*andythenorth drawing Yeti transport
03:38*V453000 finishing BRIX
03:38<V453000>release tonight motherfuckers :>
03:41<andythenorth>countdown clock
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04:37<FLHerne>joseph222: It is, yes
04:39<FLHerne>V453000: All the pictures on your preview page are broken
04:39<FLHerne>(also the v1->2 comparison)
04:39<V453000>yes because dropbox is a piece of trash
04:39<V453000>I'll probably fix it someday
04:39<V453000>for now publishing BRIX is top priority
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05:46<V453000>8 pages of bullshit text
05:47<V453000>big BRIX blog article
05:48<andythenorth>not on coop site
05:48<andythenorth>type faster
05:49<V453000>evening will bring shitstorm
05:49<V453000>BRIX flooding openttd universe
05:51<V453000>oh also
05:51<V453000>what was the thing which was stripping newgrfs of 32bpp and EZ?
05:55<V453000>was it also musa?
05:55<V453000>or some nmlc thing?
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06:15<__ln__>buon moin
06:37<@planetmaker>V453000, iirc it was grfcodec
06:38<V453000>thank you :) will try to fiddle
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06:51<Samu>looking for english help
06:51<Samu>I want to shorten "distance travelled during flight"
06:51<Samu>distance flawn? flewed? flown?
06:53<V453000>"flying distance" ?
06:54<Samu>"distance travelled since last takeoff" is too much to put on vehicle detail window
06:57<Samu>well, there's "breakdowns since last service"
06:57<Samu>not short as well, but ...
06:57<LordAro>Samu: "flown"
06:57<Samu>ty LordAro
06:57<LordAro>although that would only replaced "travelled"
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06:58<Samu>"distance flown since last takeoff"?
06:58<Samu>ugh, still big
06:58<Wolf01>It depends on what do you want to tell to the user: "distance travelled during flight" is the total distance? You don't tell much about it; "distance travelled since last takeoff" is more understandable
06:59<LordAro>maybe get rid of flown/travelled entirely?
06:59<LordAro>the word is a bit redundant - it's a vehicle, of course it's travelled to move any distance
06:59<V453000>"distance since last takeoff" seems to make sense to me
07:02<peter1139>current flight distance
07:05<Samu>oki peter1139
07:06<Samu>STR_VEHICLE_INFO_RELIABILITY_BREAKDOWNS_DISTANCE :{BLACK}Reliability: {LTBLUE}{COMMA}% {BLACK}Breakdowns since last service: {LTBLUE}{COMMA} {BLACK}Current flight distance: {LTBLUE}{COMMA}{NBSP}tile{P "" s}
07:06<Samu>like that?
07:07<Wolf01>Make it 2 strings
07:09<Samu>2 strings
07:10<peter1139>It was a suggestion.
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07:42<Samu>there is a flaw with this counter :(
07:42<Samu>horizontal/vertical counting is faster than diagonal
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07:48<Samu>1,125 til...
07:48<Samu>why not tiles
07:49<__ln__>drop the 'current'
07:49<__ln__>or 'flight', i guess it can be assumed that an aircraft flies by default
07:50<Samu>the counter resets to 0 immediately after touching the ground... hmm
07:50<__ln__>or how about 'distance flown'
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07:50<Samu>ok, seems right
07:50<Samu>will change
07:51<__ln__>but i'm not a native englishman, and i rarely even drink tea
07:52<Samu>i still have to see what the heck happens with the counter when the aircraft is outside the map
07:54<Samu>there's virtual coordinates stuff which I really don't get how it works
07:58<andythenorth>isn't it
07:58<Samu>i like the idea of showing it in red if it travells too much
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07:58<Samu>considering my patch and all, makes sense
08:13<Samu>there is no start take off for helicopters?
08:15<peter1139>Helicopters are rubbish
08:15<peter1139>I was fixing something but didn't
08:15<peter1139>Usual for my patches, I suppose.
08:16<Samu>this should suffice for both
08:16<Samu>let's see
08:16<Samu>i'm still trying to figure when it's the best time to reset the counter
08:17<Samu>and when it's the best time to start counting and when to stop counting
08:18<Samu>when the sound starts playing, the counter resets to 0
08:19<Samu>seems like a good time to reset
08:21<V453000>how would you expect I should give it the zoom and depth parameters?
08:21<V453000>it seems to just remove both 32bpp and EZ for me
08:21<V453000>can I make a 8bpp + EZ newgrf with this?
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08:23<Samu>damn it, helicopters are a difficult specimen
08:35<Samu>it's all too confusing for helicopters
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09:38<supermop_>andythenorth: did you see this yet?
09:39<andythenorth>supermop_: think it will make it? o_O
09:40<supermop_>i was debating the 100 quid level yesterday when it launched
09:40<supermop_>now thats all gone
09:40<supermop_>only hope is to drop enough hints to my wife re
09:40<supermop_>: birthday gift
09:40<andythenorth>I'd buy it, then leave it in cupboard
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10:08<supermop_>16px wide curtain side for cargo tram
10:09<supermop_>thinking of taking every 4th 1px vetical strip and scrunching them to one side
10:09<supermop_>but idk if asymetrical opening will bother me
10:09<supermop_>lets see
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10:40<andythenorth>hi Alberth
10:56<supermop_>needs dark creases in the scrunch
10:58<supermop_>folds hang out a bit when open
10:58<Samu>i managed to find where exactly an helicopter starts raising up
10:59<supermop_>ooh this looks cool:
10:59<Samu>it's a bit messed up, but it's here if (amd.flag & AMED_HELI_RAISE) {
10:59<Samu>if (--u->cur_speed == 32) {
11:00<Samu>when speed matches 32, it starts raising up
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11:07<supermop_>also not sure i need gangways on those cargo tram cars
11:12<supermop_>hmm 1 shade darker not enough
11:12<supermop_>might lighten the bumps of the folds
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11:20<supermop_>problem is the opening is big enough now i have to draw mail bags in there
11:20<supermop_>slash beer kegs and bottles
11:25<Wolf01>o/, quak
11:32<Gustavo6046>Oathfinder works :D
11:32<supermop_>aol+yahoo branded pathfinder
11:33<Gustavo6046>oath of fealty
11:39<supermop_>yeah. when aol and yahoo merged in preparation of selling to verizon, they changed the name of the joint company to Oath
11:52<Samu>what does {NBSP} mean, I forgot
11:52<Samu>on strings
11:53<@Alberth>non-breaking space
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11:58<Samu>ok, still not sure what it does
11:58<Samu>but will use it lol
12:01<juzza1>it prevents line breaking at the space character
12:01<@Alberth>it looks like a space, but it's not
12:01<@Alberth>so sentences cannot be broken at that point
12:02<Samu>ah, i see
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12:30<Samu>nice, i like it
12:32<Gustavo6046>I have a bit field, where:
12:32<Gustavo6046>• left two bits are X;
12:32<Gustavo6046>• right two bits are Y.
12:33<Gustavo6046>Being X and Y the normalized downhill direction of a slope, where:
12:33<Gustavo6046>• 10 is -1;
12:33<Gustavo6046>• 11 is 0;
12:33<Gustavo6046>• 01 is 1.
12:33<Gustavo6046>• 00 is now the same 0 instead, and now it works, so ignore me.
12:34<@Alberth>wouldn't 11 be 2-complement -1 in 2 bit ?
12:34<Gustavo6046>Alberth, I'm using just three numbers
12:34<Gustavo6046>I'm comparing the bits, and doing a & b != 0
12:35<@Alberth>I guessed as much
12:35<Gustavo6046>I want to know if a & b != 0 gets whether a road can be built between two slopes.
12:35<@Alberth> (a & b) != 0 then
12:35<Gustavo6046>So, e.g. a = [-1, 0] and b = [-1, 1] does 100 and 110.
12:36<Gustavo6046>Or rather, 0100 and 0110
12:36<Gustavo6046>Oh wait, 01 is -1 and 10 is 1, I swapped :P
12:36<Gustavo6046>Not important, it's symmetrical.
12:36<@Alberth>but wouldn't int x:2 not get expanded as 2 complement? I wonder
12:36<Samu>so now there's aircraft range and distance flown
12:37<Gustavo6046>LOL line 1101 is within the slope bitwise code
12:37<Gustavo6046>Alberth, no
12:37<Gustavo6046>x and y must be between -1 and 1
12:38<Samu>what are the pros of aircraft range?
12:38<@Alberth>"too bad, I had hoped it would"
12:38<Gustavo6046>Slopes are a direction; directions are normalized to a unit vector where -1 <= n <= 1 and n in {x, y}.
12:38<Samu>slopes aren't a direction, they're a big mess of stuff
12:40<Gustavo6046>I know
12:40<Gustavo6046>Samu, I know
12:40<Samu>i worked on slope directions when working on river tiles :(
12:40<Gustavo6046>that's why I clear the SLOPE_ELEVATED and SLOPE_STEE bits.
12:40<Samu>trying to make friendly rivers
12:41<Samu>during map generation, try to make lock friendly rivers
12:42<Samu>during town growth, try to make lock friendly town bridges
12:42<Samu>i ended up fattening rivers, not really what I wanted to do :/
12:43<Samu>which aircraft set got aircraft ranges?
12:43<Samu>i wanna see how distance flown + aircraft range interact with each other
12:46<Samu>Range: 96 tiles, Distance flown: 103 tiles
12:49<Gustavo6046>Samu, it's radius flown
12:49<Gustavo6046>so I guess you half the distance
12:49<Gustavo6046>if the range is in a radial circle
12:49<Gustavo6046>and the aircraft reached the edge
12:50<Samu>i count every time the aircraft changes tile coordinates, i'm not sure what aircraft range do
12:50<Samu>i think it counts the distance between the 2 airports
12:50<Gustavo6046>Samu, you should instead count to X everytime it moves in X
12:50<Gustavo6046>and count to Y everytime it moves in Y
12:51<Gustavo6046>then the distance is sqrt(X*X + Y*Y)
12:51<Gustavo6046>idk if Squirrel has pow
12:52<Samu>i got a problem with identifying coordinates outside map
12:52<Samu>it uses virtual coordinates when outside the map borders, and i have no idea how they work
12:53<Samu>i can't calculate distances
12:53<Gustavo6046>Samu, I had that too
12:53<Samu>i can only count how many times it has moved from a tile to another
12:53<Gustavo6046>so I did a TileVec class for coordinate
12:53<Gustavo6046>it would always turn n < -1 to n = 0
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13:36<Samu> done
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13:50<Samu>do aircraft have a weight concept in them?
13:51<Samu>the more loaded it is, the least it accelerates
13:56<@Alberth>the biggest problem is getting enough lift
13:57<@Alberth>but you obviously have that when it flies :p
13:58<V453000>hi guys, does anybody remember how exactly should I use grfstrip? it tells me to give it input and output, that much is clear, but then it says [<depth> <zoom>]
13:58<Samu>i was thinking of something like ... making the big capacity planes accelerate slower than the lower capacity ones
13:58<V453000>how do I figure out the syntax and values it wants for the depth and zoom?
13:58<V453000>Rubidium: ? :)
13:58<Samu>depending always on how much is loaded, of course
13:59<V453000>also can I get 8bpp with EZ from grfstrip? aka remove only 32bpp x4 and 32bpp x1
13:59<@Alberth>V does -h work?
13:59<supermop_>samu - planes in game are pretty close to max speed by the time they are in the air
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14:00<@Alberth>V, right it does :p
14:00<supermop_>acceleration doesn't really have much gameplay effect for planes in game
14:01<Samu>wanted it to be much like how trains do
14:01<V453000>Alberth: yes but yeah it tells me that :)
14:01<supermop_>also, as Alberth says, so long as it can reach take off speed it flies
14:01<Samu>some engines take a long time to reach their maximum speed
14:02<supermop_>Samu: that's probably the wrong approach - acceleration is also fairly inconsequential for planes IRL
14:02<@Alberth>V depth looks like 32bpp 8bpp
14:02<@Alberth>zoom[] = { "normal", "zi4", "zi2", "zo2", "zo4", "zo8" };
14:02<supermop_>even heavy cargo plains will reach several hundred kmh in a few seconds
14:02<Samu>oh well, there goes my logic
14:03<supermop_>the biggest issue in 'balancing' weight of planes is rather how much fuel they burn
14:03<supermop_>heavy load = need more fuel to take off and fly
14:04<supermop_>to a lesser extent (not important for openttd) heavy load = less weight allowance for fuel = less range
14:04<V453000>ok so I write grfstrip.exe BRIX.grf BRIX-8bpp.grf 32bpp zi4 ?
14:04<V453000>well it did something
14:04<@Alberth>something like that
14:04<V453000>ah so I tell what to keep
14:04<frosch123>i think grfstrip command line is broken
14:05<Samu>my own laws of physics differ from that of real world :(
14:05<supermop_>Samu: if you want to do something that operates on the load of aircraft, it would be more logical to have running cost increase with load weight
14:05<frosch123>it misses some "i++"
14:05<supermop_>but planes in game (and most airliners IRL) pretty much always fly full
14:06<Samu>increased running costs, again
14:06<V453000>how do I tell if it also removed x1 8bpp from the grf ... it should never do that, right?
14:07<frosch123>yes, it won'T do that
14:07<frosch123>what resolutions do you have?
14:07<V453000>x1 x4
14:07<frosch123>8bpp 1x, 8bpp 4x, 32bpp 1x, 32bpp 4x, more?
14:07<V453000>it did keep x4 so it should work
14:07<V453000>8bpp x1, 8bpp x4, 32bpp x1, 32bpp x4
14:08<V453000>seems functional :) cool
14:08<supermop_>samu, i don't even know if aircraft in game have a power property
14:08<frosch123>so you want: grfstrip bla.grf bla-8bpp.grf 8bpp zi4
14:08<frosch123>but if will fail if you have more zoomlevels
14:09<V453000>ok, I won't :P
14:10<Samu>aircraft don't have weight, from what I can find
14:13<Samu>they have no power either
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14:14<Samu>only rail and road vehicles have weight
14:14<Samu>ships and aircraft don't have
14:14<andythenorth>I have wondered about ship physics
14:14<andythenorth>but I think it's negligible gain
14:17<frosch123> <- fixes grfstrip to allow more than one additional format
14:18<frosch123> <- another return was missing
14:18<Samu>aircraft have image_index, cost_factor, running_cost, subtype, sfx, acceleration, max_speed, mail_capacity, passenger_capacity, max_range
14:19<Samu>no weight :(
14:19<Samu>not even air_drag
14:19<supermop_>samu: for the purposes of the game, there is no need to have those
14:20<supermop_>speed is determined by thrust, weight (somewhat) and drag (a lot)
14:20<supermop_>if it is important that plane 1 goes 300kmh and plane 2 goes 600 kmh
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14:21<supermop_>there is not really much need to do something more complex than just giving what the final max speed should be
14:21<Samu>there is acceleration
14:22<Samu>will take a loog at acceleration
14:22<supermop_>rather than trying to approximate drag and thrust such that the result is the speed you want
14:22<supermop_>acceleration is only really relevant when taking off
14:23<supermop_>and OpenTTD doesn't have or need airplanes that don't make it off the runway because they are overweight
14:24<supermop_>because again, the capacity is the max weight a plane can take off with
14:24<supermop_>a plane can't be too heavy to take off because it would be over capacity
14:25<supermop_>whether a plane needs half of the runway or all of the runway isn't really simulated by game
14:25<supermop_>you could make plane crashes at short runways dependant on plane weight - but the plane size property already handles that
14:26<Samu>plane crashing is too drastic for balancing... :(
14:27<Samu>i don't like the idea of crashing to make them fair
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14:35<supermop_>make what fair?
14:35<supermop_>what is unfair about planes? every player can buy them
14:36<supermop_>if you want to nerf particular planes, pretty much range, speed, and running costs are the only aspects that will have a noticeable effect relative to capacity
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15:14<@Alberth>latter looks good frosch123
15:15<frosch123>thanks for checking
15:16<@Alberth>hmm, perhaps also add texts for the parameters in the help?
15:17<@Alberth>avoid looking it up again from the source :p
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15:17<frosch123>like names for zoom levels?
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16:12<Samu>question, how did you come up with those base acceleration values in engines.h table?
16:12<Samu>18, 20, 35, 40, 50
16:17<Samu>let's make yate haugan acceleration = 5
16:17<Samu>see what happens lol
16:18<supermop_>Samu: certainly chris sawyer just made them up to feel right
16:20<Samu>hmm yate haugan acceleration is lower, hmm hmm :) but it's still a fixed amount
16:20<Samu>accelerates at the same rate
16:21<Samu>this game needs a realistic acceleration for aircraft? :p
16:21<supermop_>Samu: why?
16:22<supermop_>'realistic' would be almost instantaneous relative to other vehicles
16:22<Samu>okay, not that kind of realistic
16:23<supermop_>also you run the risk of then making only very very long flights desirable
16:23<supermop_>where aircraft already heavily favor long flights
16:23<Samu>was thinking of acceleration rate slowing down the closer it gets to max speed
16:24<Samu>yeah, i see
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16:28<supermop_>still though, a 747 flying 1000 tiles will spend more time at a high speed than a embraer 135 flying 50 tiles
16:36<Samu>with acceleration = 1
16:36<Samu>it took 676 tiles to reach max speed, on yate haugan
16:37<Samu>seems like for each x acceleration, the cur_speed increases x per tick
16:38<Samu>this is all interesting, but i'm not sure if this is what I want to do
16:38<supermop_>what do you want to do?
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16:39<Samu>not sure if I really want to touch acceleration
16:40<Samu>if i want the more cargo loaded, the slower it accelerates
16:41<supermop_>with aircraft, you cannot build more, or more powerful turbines for a given plane
16:41<supermop_>a plane will always have the same 'power' and the same capacity
16:42<Samu>what you're saying is that it's not how real physics work
16:44<Samu>major goal is profits
16:45<Samu>something that punts a dent on aircraft profits
16:45<Gustavo6046>The difference is the technology: Embraer, being from Brazil, automatically advantages from high technology index. Unfortunately my country is still poor.
16:46<Samu>the acceleration thing seems to only promote long long distances
16:46<supermop_>it is not like a train where the player makes a choice about the loading ratio compared to the motive power
16:46<supermop_>planes pretty much always fly at 100% loaded
16:47<V453000>Ah I guess musa needs python 2.6
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16:47<supermop_>so there is no real reason to make planes that are 50% full cheaper or faster than planes that are 100% full
16:48<Samu>what about the opposite
16:49<Samu>place accelerates to max speed as it usually do, but then it loses speed if it travels too much
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16:49<Samu>akin to my breakdown idea, but instead of breaking down, it decelerates gradually
16:50<Samu>plane accelerates* typo
16:51<Samu>something like... travel 500 tiles at max speed, then the rest, gradually slow down
16:52<Gustavo6046>Samu, aerodynamics boi
16:52<Samu>sorry im noob
16:53<supermop_>Samu: what behavior do you want to affect
16:53<supermop_>not effect, but affect
16:53<supermop_>what change in player behavior do you want to create
16:54<Samu>make them use aircraft without them being retardedly profitable
16:54<supermop_>profit is probably a weak motivator for many players then
16:55<Samu>hmm no one likes to use aircraft on competitive servers, i'd like to change this fact
16:55<supermop_>i never use aircraft because 1) it is boring, 2) plenty of occupation on other thing to ever get around to building airports
16:56<supermop_>3) often soon have plenty of money without aircraft, so don't need them for funing
16:56<Cubey>I think most people who play openttd are mostly interested in the trains
16:56<supermop_>so people are largely discouraged from using aircraft already
16:57<supermop_>profit is largely not interesting in the game
16:57<Cubey>Personally I find playing with the aircraft not very satisfying...not much challenge, nothing really interesting you can do with them
16:57<supermop_>if you are competing to move the most cargo, or to grow a city largest, aircraft do not provide much of a competitive advantage anyway
16:58<supermop_>OpenTTD is difficult because it trying to approximate a scale where both trains and planes are applicable
16:59<Samu>infrastructure maintenance costs on aircraft are way too drastic for small maps
16:59<supermop_>Samu: the infrastructure cost was supposed to be a tool to balance out the profitability of aircraft
17:00<_dp_>I solved aircraft balance on our servers by disabling large aircrafts
17:00<_dp_>small ones are still decently profitable but loose to trains
17:00<Samu>my main issue is indeed the big planes
17:01<supermop_>aircraft ranges are another tool, but default will not have those
17:01<Samu>small planes, i noticed they're fine
17:01<supermop_>and again, bigger plane = bigger range
17:01<_dp_>range is weird
17:01<_dp_>and does nothing to balance profit
17:02<Samu>what do you think of this
17:02<supermop_>_dp_: it was less to balance profit, more to just force some more consideration in route planning beyond 'build two airports as far apart as possible'
17:03<supermop_>in real life, a380 doesn't print money because people want certain flexibility in flights, so you cannot have every take off slot from LHR be an A380 to PVD every 2 minutes
17:04<supermop_>OpenTTD cannot provide that self-balancing
17:04<_dp_>there is a reasonable distance limit, you need fast income when starting
17:04<_dp_>it's like 1000 tiles but whatever)
17:05<Cubey>Any balance in openttd is opted-into by the user
17:05<supermop_>range also can only make sense for one map size
17:05<_dp_>Cubey, it doesn't work like that on competitive servers :p
17:06<supermop_>if you are playing a map of the UK at 4k^2, any range limit at all will not make sense
17:06<Cubey>That's why competition servers only reflect a very small subset of all the styles of gameplay used by players
17:06<supermop_>_dp_: i have never seen a competitive server i wanted to play on
17:07<Cubey>I see openttd as being in basically the same category as minecraft
17:07<Cubey>There are all sorts of games that can be played within the game
17:07<Cubey>Goal servers, city builder, etc.
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17:08<Cubey>But there are many many more "non-game" ways to play the game
17:08<_dp_>supermop_, well, not everyone likes competitive play I know
17:08<Samu>I was medling with this idea... instead of promoting a breakdown aka limit speed to 321 km/h, make it gradually lose speed after x tiles
17:08<supermop_>i wouldn't mind competition
17:09<Samu>but it makes no sense, or yada yada...
17:09<Samu>I need ideas :(
17:09<supermop_>but servers always have things like, newgrf settings that make no sense, or no newgrfs at all
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17:09<supermop_>or no cdist, so passenger networks make no sense
17:09<supermop_>or very narrow goals
17:10<Cubey>There are no regularly operating servers that are configured remotely like how I have my single player
17:10<_dp_>among competitive ones I'm sure we have the best ones on CityMania xD
17:10<_dp_>cdist is like a gs of it's own, it's hard to combine it with any other goal
17:10<Cubey>It is strange to me how there are practically no servers with a moderate amount of newgrfs and the vanilla/stable version of the server
17:11<supermop_>Cubey: exactly
17:11<_dp_>It's very hard to configure vanilla
17:11<Samu>i only care about vanilla
17:11<supermop_>like a plain silicon valley GS with Firs and a nice train set would be fun and competitive
17:11<_dp_>newgrfs can at lest do something about gameplay
17:12<Cubey>I mean, the configs I use would never work for a multiplayer server, because I limit my behavior through choice rather than restrictive settings
17:12<Cubey>E.g. you could never leave the max station spread set to maximum on a public server, it would be abused too much
17:12<_dp_>well, you can set some rules about it
17:13<_dp_>but better to be coded ofc
17:13<_dp_>but sadly some things can't be coded so still need rules, mods, etc
17:13<Cubey>Even stuff like cargodist has problems
17:13<Cubey>Since cargo only appears with destinations that the network graph already knows are connected
17:14<Cubey>You can "game" the system by only building point to point routes
17:14<Cubey>There's no way to force players to build "realistic" routes under cargodist, it's just something they have to choose to do
17:15<supermop_>Cubey: exactly, in a city builder system, even with cdist on, you can set up your routes so it is only possible for any passenger in your network to get dumped at your city
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17:16<Samu>i feel that i need to do something about aircraft :(
17:17<Cubey>And I don't see any of that as a problem, because I prefer open-ended sandbox-like games anyway
17:17<Cubey>And I think a lot of people who play simulation games do
17:17<_dp_>well, what's the point of cdist on competitive server then if it can be cheated anyway?
17:18<Samu>cargo dist, i rather call it cargo with personality
17:18<Samu>hi, I'm coal, and i want to go to that train, not this one
17:19<_dp_>and btw, there is no way to force players to build "realistic" because no one knows wtf does "realistic" mean in openttd :p
17:20<_dp_>everyone builds whatever he likes and calls it "realistic"
17:20<Cubey>Yeah that's true
17:20<supermop_>_dp_: because building passenger networks without cdist is incredibly frustrating
17:21<V453000>+1 _dp_
17:21<Cubey>I'm working on some scripts to pull data from the GS API through the admin port and help me analyze my cargodist graph
17:22<_dp_>Samu, btw, as for breakdonws I think as long as they're random they're bs. I disabled breakdowns for planes where it matters (aka where it's a best way to start).
17:22<ST2>damn, and now that I'm out of popcorns :(
17:22<Samu>when i hear of cargo dist, i always think about how cargo is distributed to the nearby stations
17:22<Samu>so confusing
17:22<Cubey>But I'm realizing that even with access to a lot of information I can slice and dice, it's not immediately clear what my goal should even be
17:23<Samu>i prefer breakdowns enabled for aircraft, but aircraft crashes disabled
17:24<Samu>i just wish big planes couldn't just land on small airports
17:24<Samu>but oh well
17:26<supermop_>i once tried a polish GS that tried to control town growth by type of passenger service provided.
17:26<supermop_>was pretty nice
17:26<supermop_>encouraged growth in cities that were hubs of the network
17:27<Samu>ST2: give me ideas for aircraft
17:27<ST2>change the atendants :P
17:28<Samu>so ppl want to play with breakdowns disabled and aircraft
17:28<Samu>there goes my patch :(
17:28<supermop_>Samu: some people do
17:28<supermop_>some people never touch aircraft
17:28<ST2>actually, on SP people can play with the settings they want ^^
17:28<supermop_>aircraft breakdowns are weird as is
17:29<_dp_>oh, right, I meant crashes, but whatever, another random bs
17:29<Cubey>Yeah the default aircraft breakdown behavior never made any sense to me
17:29<_dp_>basically on competitive server it mean if crashed first year -> restart
17:29<ST2>MP servers, and specially the ones with goals, try to balance things to all cargo types/ways to trasnport it be more or less equal
17:29<Cubey>Crashes are a huge pain so I always disabled them, but at least that corresponds to something I can imagine actually happening
17:30<Samu>when it's disabled, noobs will use big planes on small airports... I wish they wouldn't do it
17:31<supermop_>ST2: i never understood 'balancing' like that though - if everything is balanced to be equivalent, what is the point of choosing any particular thing
17:31<ST2>exactly supermop :P
17:31<supermop_>it makes more sense for the game to have optimal uses for certain things
17:31<Cubey>There have been a number of proposed ideas in the past having to do with improving the layouts of airports and making a bigger difference in throughput for the larger layouts
17:31<ST2>it's where the human factor comes up
17:31<Cubey>Which would be a good reason to use the big ones instead of just whatever has the smallest footprint
17:31<Cubey>But none of that has ever made it in trunk
17:31<_dp_>Samu, usually it's pro's who do that not noobs, noobs buy big airports, one plane and go bankrupt :p
17:32<Wolf01>It's the blizzard syndrome
17:32<supermop_>rather than balancing so that for any route length there is no difference between a bus or a 747
17:33<_dp_>but as long as game balanced for it it's fine to do whatever
17:33<supermop_>Samu: i think "make the game harder for 'noobs' and easier for expects" is the opposite of balancing
17:33<_dp_>like, sure, big planes with small airports are the best start on our tropic cb blitz, so what?
17:33<Samu>a big airplane on a small aircraft always gets me on my nerves :(
17:33<Samu>small airport*
17:33<ST2>hire better pilots xD
17:34<Samu>if i disable aircraft crashes, they get away with it
17:34<supermop_>maybe they have thrust reversers
17:34<Samu>if i enable crashes, there may be accidental crashes early game, ruining it
17:34<supermop_>Samu: punishing players is probably not fun
17:35<_dp_>idk what ST2 means by balancing cargo, but for me balancing usually means don't let stupid shit to be the best way of doing smth xD
17:35<ST2>_dp_: touch� xD
17:36<Samu>like 2 airports in the 2 corners
17:36<Samu>and a plane
17:36<_dp_>yep, exactly xD
17:37<ST2>supermop_: you said don't like goal servers - probably never tried the one using BusyBee ^^
17:37<Samu>slowing them down past x tiles, goes against the idea of what aircraft is
17:37<ST2>and it's goal based to restart when goal is reached and get a new map, to new players join and build
17:37<_dp_>have you fixed your bb to not be a p2p truck fest?
17:37<supermop_>ST2: i sometimes play busy bee SP, its a bit too random for me
17:37<ST2>that's the magic of it xD
17:38<supermop_>_dp_: BB is always p2p biased
17:38<Samu>balancing cargo is making coal suck
17:38<_dp_>idk, I think with a lot of big goals it can favor networks or some sort
17:38<Samu>coal too stronk
17:38<supermop_>it is fun trying to rework a p2p train route to become a network as targets change in SP though
17:38<_dp_>like 100+ big
17:38<_dp_>*lot dammit
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17:38<supermop_>but it would always be easier to spam trucks
17:39<supermop_>Samu: don't use default cargo
17:39<_dp_>coal is only good as a starting cargo
17:39<ST2>BB gets resumed to short tracks when cash income is stable
17:39<Cubey>"Balance" to me means that coal is stronker than most cargos because it also has no secondary
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17:39<supermop_>in vanilla coal just goes to black hole at power plant
17:40<Samu>i compared coal to grain/livestock combo and I was a bit surprised by the results
17:40<supermop_>there is no other complex chain
17:40<Samu>they're equal
17:40<Samu>with the advantage of goods being produced
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17:41<_dp_>Samu, goods pay better than coal even if you don't count livestock
17:41<Cubey>So the farm->factory chain is actually well balanced with coal
17:41<_dp_>but iron ore chain is probably even better
17:42<_dp_>because of 3 steps
17:42<Samu>iron one feels disappointing
17:42<Cubey>That means more cost of overhead though
17:42<Samu>yeah, it has that potential, but still disappointing
17:42<Cubey>I tend to look at wood right away because it's almost as good as coal and also causes goods to be produced
17:43<_dp_>speaking of disappointing, if there decent cities pax beats everything :p
17:43<_dp_>or if cities are allowed to grow for that matter
17:46<_dp_>actually, why are we even theorizing about it, just check this:
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17:47<ST2>btw _dp_: already got players complaining of this?
17:47<_dp_>saber did it with pax mostly and goods iirc, da with goods, me with iron ore
17:47<_dp_>ST2, nah, no players - no complaints xD
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17:48<ST2>well, only happens with W10 with latest update
17:48<ST2>mine still not updated so, no self complaints xD
17:48<_dp_>and mine is not even windows xD
17:48<ST2>that's why I asked about players... not you :P
17:49<_dp_>psst, I have windows too, just don't tell anybody
17:49<ST2>secret kept ^^
17:49<_dp_>for mashinky xD
17:50<_dp_>and compiling cmclient ofc
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18:00<_dp_>omg, brix evolved to something crazy since last time I checked it xD
18:04<_dp_>80 megs tho *sigh*
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18:08<_dp_>V453000, how do I get both snow and sand in game like on reddit picture?
18:12<_dp_>oh, yeah, toyland replacement doesn't go well with it :(
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18:12<_dp_>and not just on toyland
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18:15<_dp_>signal selection is goofy
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>what reddit picture?
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18:21<_dp_>disabling tracks in grf settings also disables ground sprite for tracks and rivers
18:22<_dp_>am I mumbling too much?)
18:34<Gustavo6046>IT WORKS
18:34<Samu>i'm trying to fix something
18:35<Samu>when an aircraft breaks down, it currently goes from 2000 whatever km/h to 321 km/h instantly
18:35<Samu>i'm trying to make it gradually lose speed towards 321 km/h
18:35<Samu>smooth it
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18:52<frosch123>ads for ad blockers are weird
19:05<Samu>looks like i did it, but... unsure if it's done the right way for implementation purposes
19:15<Samu>what u think
19:15<Samu>lines 24-28 are added
19:15<Samu>and i removed some, hmm let me post patch too
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20:00<Samu> - new patch, discuss :p
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20:26<Supercheese>there be brix
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21:24<Supercheese>water not animated :(
21:24<Supercheese>trees are sexy though
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22:56<joseph222>Hello world
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---Logclosed Tue Oct 24 00:00:02 2017