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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-10-26

---Logopened Thu Oct 26 00:00:55 2017
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03:43<andythenorth>V453000: how about draw VTrains to match Horse 2?
03:44<andythenorth>then we can hide easter eggs in the sets
03:44<andythenorth>total WTF madness
03:47<V453000>I won't even be pushing pixels :P
03:48<andythenorth>just teach the 8bpp python script to look like horse
03:49<andythenorth>then we could make a hidden third set
03:49<andythenorth>vehicles you can only get by combining Horse and VTrains in certain ways
03:49<andythenorth>total metagame
03:51<V453000>yesterday I got an idea where if I combine vehicles in new set in a very specific way, vehicle becomes slug
03:51<V453000>there could be such a cheat code for andyvehicle
03:53<V453000>cause I don't feel like adding slug as a vehicle on it's own in 2 sets
03:54<andythenorth>easter slug
04:00<V453000>also I realized I have some serious WTF in terms of vehicle scaling and shit
04:00<V453000>need figuring out
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04:25<andythenorth>make stuff
04:25<andythenorth>or you could do it Properly
04:25<andythenorth>and make a comprehensive Plan
04:25<andythenorth>with has all Problems Worked Out in Advance
04:26<andythenorth>then you Can Never Be Wrong
04:30<V453000>I don't think I can do that
04:30<V453000>there's so much shit combined
04:30<V453000>thing is
04:30<V453000>I have a model which is 24/8
04:30<V453000>but the model is scaling
04:30<V453000>then I need to scale from each center of each unit
04:30<V453000>and render accordingly
04:30<V453000>shitballs m8
04:32<andythenorth>total wtf
04:32<andythenorth>you will break the internet
04:33<V453000>in theory if I scale from the correct pivot points, it should work fine
04:34<andythenorth>think Horse 2 is done
04:34<andythenorth>people only look at – angle, right?
04:34<V453000>yeah sure
04:35<andythenorth>all done then
04:35<V453000>that's a lot of things
04:35<V453000>next up engines :)
04:36<V453000>the wagons are higher standard now
04:37<andythenorth>engines need work
04:37<andythenorth>not done then
04:37<andythenorth>can't ship
04:38<andythenorth>ok work
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06:25<Samu>@calc (10+1+10)*(10+1+10)
06:25<@DorpsGek>Samu: 441
06:29<Samu>@calc (10+1+10)*(10+1+10)-1
06:29<@DorpsGek>Samu: 440
06:29<Samu>that's a lot of stations
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07:09<Wolf01> lol
07:15<__ln__>Wolf01: here's the same thing explained by a more trustworthy authority:
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07:36<Samu>I still don't know how to sort
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07:37<Samu>how do i create variable names? construct a name of a variable?
07:37<andythenorth>this is, like, the most depressing most in months
07:38<andythenorth>adding a feature that needs changes in a feature, that needs changes in a feature
07:38<Samu>uint no_stations = used_stations.Length();
07:39<Samu>Station station"no_station"
07:39<Samu>i fail
07:40<Samu>while no_stations != 0, no_stations -=1; Station station"no_station"
07:41<V453000>andythenorth: your generated docs of newgrfs are just fucking amazing.
07:42<V453000>it's nothing new but it's worth mentioning
07:47<Samu>how do i name a certain number of variables?
07:47<Samu>is this sounding like a stupid question?
07:48<Samu>if i have 10 stations, i want to create 10 variables, all with different names
07:49<Samu>if i have 5, i want 5 variables
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07:50<Samu>I think i'm gonna give up, this is becoming an impossible task for my skills
07:59<Wolf01>Samu, that's what lists are for
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08:24<crem1>What do you use for backup, on a file level? (ideally the same thing to backup from linux, windows and mac)
08:24<crem1>hm, why am I 1..
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08:26<andythenorth>backup what? o_O
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08:29<crem>Like... Photos, sources, audio recodrings, etc.
08:29<crem>Hm.. Something that I'd set up once and forget would be nice.
08:30<andythenorth>if you manage that, you can sell it and make $$$ :)
08:32<crem>Crashplan was like that, but they don't support private customers starting from 2018, and also their client was huge java monster that constantly ate 2G of RAM.
08:35<Samu>i have no idea what references are, what pointers are, what items are :(
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08:36<Samu>when i use Swap, I get a crash, cannot access memory
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08:52<Wolf01> mmmh, manually changing lines is a PITA
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09:03<Samu>i can't do this, i feel bad
09:04<Wolf01> 16 minutes of train passing in stations XD
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09:06<Samu>can't use lists
09:06<Samu>so i Include(s) to the StationList
09:06<Samu>but then i have no idea what to do
09:07<Samu>can't manage
09:07<Samu>don't know how to move, swap items
09:07<Samu>or swap references
09:07<Samu>or swap consts, i have no idea
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09:23<Samu>Wolf01: do you know how to use lists, cus i dont
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09:35<crem>yo indeed.
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10:04<Wolf01>ISP my fuck
10:05<V453000>IFP my shit
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10:10<Samu>what's a vector, what's an array
10:11<Samu>who would like to help a poor programmer? i've been on this for 2 days
10:11<Samu>erm, not-even-a-programmer* typo
10:11<Wolf01>Try with something easier
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10:16<Samu>the easy way out is to manually do it
10:16<Samu>st1, etc... st440
10:17<supermop>so construction on this restaurant is like 1 third of the way through, and just today the contractor is like asking what a neon sign is
10:17<supermop>and where to get it
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10:18<supermop>this is the type of thing you should figure out before you bid for a job, let alone accept it and start work on it
10:19<Samu>there can be (10+1+10)^2 - 1 tiles, if each tile is a station, this is how many stations can take that cargo
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10:21<crem> guess a wikihow article by image. :) Pretty fun.
10:21<Samu>no thx
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10:36<Samu>meanwhile, in russia
10:57<Samu>help me simplify this, to avoid repetition.
10:57<Samu>i insist
10:59<@Alberth>use arrays
11:00<@Alberth>or more modern, std::vector
11:01<crem>std::vector is so 90s..
11:03<Samu>there's small vector?
11:04<Samu>I think i tried
11:04<@Alberth>if you like that, sure
11:05<Samu>i used StationList, it's a SmallVector isn't it?
11:05<Samu>typedef SmallVector<Station *, 2> StationList;
11:05<@Alberth>in general, when you end up in variables v1, v2, ... with number suffixes that do the same thing, you really want v[i]
11:09<Samu>ok, how do i start with v[i]
11:10<Samu>first, i count how many stations I gathered
11:11<@Alberth>isn't it just struct StationRating { Station *st; uint rating; }; StationRating ratings[6]; ?
11:12<Samu>there can be more than 6
11:13<Samu>theoretical maximum is 440
11:13<@Alberth>std::vector<StationRating> ratings;
11:13<@Alberth>then add stations
11:16<Samu>it can range from 0 to 440
11:16<Samu>well, it only matters once there's at least 2
11:16<Samu>so 2 to 440
11:17<Samu>identifier StationRating is undefined
11:17<@Alberth>look 6 minutes up
11:19<Samu>struct StationRating { Station *st; uint rating; }; StationRating ratings; ?
11:19<@Alberth>just the struct definition
11:30<Samu>how do i add :(
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11:38<@Alberth>you don't actually believe you're the first person that adds an element to a std::vector, right?
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11:43<Samu> StationRating ratings; ratings.rating = st->goods[type].rating; = st;
11:57<Samu>I can't make it work
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11:59<Wolf01>Samu, you are redeclaring a variable
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12:08<Samu>fine, i give up
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12:47<LordAro>Samu: there's something to be said about "diving head first" into something you don't understand, but you also need to be able to go back up several levels and work out how a programming language works, how to make things with it, and most importantly of all, how to read and fix error messages
12:47<LordAro>relying on other people is just unfair
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13:30<Samu>sorry about that
13:30<Samu>figured it's more complex than I thought
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14:00<frosch123>is 2500 sprites okay for a single vehicle without cargo types or loading?
14:14<andythenorth>is any cats?
14:14<andythenorth>no cats?
14:18<Samu>how to nerf aircraft properly?
14:22<frosch123>i have to look up nml syntax every time i use it :/
14:24<@Alberth>it's not very intuitive indeed
14:25<andythenorth>I have to look up nml syntax every time I use it
14:25<andythenorth>I even have a long convo saved with Alberth where we designed 50% of a new syntax
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14:36<frosch123>hmm, i may have rendered too few sprites
14:37<V453000>heyo :D
14:38<frosch123>V453000: are 2625 sprites enough for a slug?
14:38<V453000>why would it be that many?
14:38<frosch123>continous bending without any gaps
14:39<frosch123>at least i hope so
14:39<V453000>do you need some test sprites from me? Would just be boxes
14:39<V453000>I will just try to focus on making graphics stuff, and have the 3D scenes ready for more rotations
14:39<V453000>I will even render 24 for now
14:40<frosch123>i already rendered the sprites
14:40<frosch123>currently wondering how to make nml switches for so many sprites
14:40<V453000>running out of switch IDs or whatnot?
14:41<V453000>I guess not, NUTS wagons probably use more than 2500
14:41<frosch123>nah, i feel like andy... should i use pnml, or go to pynml :p
14:41<andythenorth>just rewrite nml :P
14:42<frosch123>i have 50% of a spec for nml2
14:42<frosch123>but likely not worth it
14:42<andythenorth>people seem to do fine with current nml
14:43<V453000>ok I go model a big boy then :)
14:46<V453000>wow it fits 24/8 almost exactly :D
14:46<andythenorth>is there beer here?
14:47<V453000>not here
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15:17<V453000>rocking 0 replies on brix or the 32bpp converter so far on tt-f
15:17<V453000>good shit
15:18<V453000>is there such low activity lately or simply nobody gives a fuck?
15:18<V453000>or both
15:19<V453000>I was even thinking if we reached a point in the Graphics Development section that everybody basically has their own thread and writes there
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15:23<frosch123>i have not read forums in like 2 months
15:23<frosch123>unless linked here
15:23<Wolf01><V453000> rocking 0 replies on brix or the 32bpp converter so far on tt-f <- do you want me to reply "first"
15:26<andythenorth>V453000: what frosch said
15:26<andythenorth>there is activity, but mostly from people creating their own stuff
15:27<andythenorth>or total numpties, of which there are few right now
15:29<V453000>in short fuck forums \o/
15:30<V453000>I kind of started using it as a diary lately, vomitting my progress basically just for myself
15:30<V453000>might end up doing it just locally
15:30<V453000>or even to a notepad pysically
15:31<Gustavo6046>I mean
15:31<Gustavo6046>I pasted it in another channel too (very, very far away...) to a friend of mine. I decided, "it's a MIDI, so why not in #openttd too?".
15:33<V453000>I think I'm just spoilt with factorio, I post anything on factorio and people lose their shit ... I even like the fact that here people don't care so much which lets there be no real stress "RELEASE ASAP OR RIOT", maybe I'm just frustrated that coop is very quiet :) all is fine in the end
15:34<V453000>and the main people I care about already told me their opinions, so :)
15:34<V453000>can't really complain
15:34<Gustavo6046>>Can't really complain
15:34<Gustavo6046>>Posts a huge wall of text
15:35<Gustavo6046>>it's all rantin
15:36<frosch123>Syntax error, unexpected token "[" <- if the line just had less than 10k chars
15:36<V453000>ut wot m8
15:38<Gustavo6046>Just kidding bro
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15:39<V453000>I know
15:39<V453000>well the conclusion is that I'm modelling trains so can't get much better
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15:41*andythenorth wonders how long before JGR gets bored of being sole maintainer
15:41<andythenorth>* sole maintainer of people's hopes, dreams and wishes :)
15:42<V453000>when andythenorth and V453000 are bored of forever catching the perfect newgrf
15:44<frosch123>now i need RGBA EATER
15:46<V453000>let me know if it was user friendly enough :D
15:46<V453000>I think currently you need to use it in the specific folder setup it has in the zip
15:46<V453000>unless you edit the py
15:46<frosch123>uppercase stuff always sucks
15:48<V453000>:D WHAT
15:51<frosch123>it reminds me of the python wiki bot
15:52<frosch123>it's also python, and it's also written by window people
15:52<frosch123>50% of the source is fighting with windows or so
15:53<frosch123>they always need to invent stuff like /tmp
15:54<frosch123>or input/output directories
15:54<V453000>fucking scum
15:54<V453000>ban windows
15:55<frosch123>V453000: do you have an example of how to run it
15:56<frosch123>the readme floods me with 50+ options to tune stuff i don't understand, but there is no example
15:56<V453000>like the command?
15:56<frosch123>do i need to copy my input into the 32bpp folder?
15:56<V453000>yes put input into 32bpp folder
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15:57<V453000> -n TRACKS_OUTPUT_0000 -e ALL CC1 CC2
15:57<V453000>basic command to run it
15:57<V453000>-n for filename
15:57<V453000>-e allowed colour types
15:57<V453000>don't put CC1 and CC2 there if you don't want those :P
15:57<V453000>I guess not using -n should just take all files in the directory
15:57<V453000>but eh :P is why version 2 eventually
15:58<V453000>a straight forward how to would be useful I see :) makes sense
15:58<frosch123>it mentions the input/output directories nowhere, i only guessed that :)
16:01<V453000>I guess :)
16:01<frosch123>hmm, 1:30 for 5kx3k image, mostly transparent
16:01<frosch123>but, worked :)
16:02<V453000>5k x 3k is big as fuck
16:02<V453000>admittedly brix has bigger spritesheets but yeah
16:02<frosch123>i have 25 sprite sheets of that size
16:02<frosch123>for a single slug :p
16:02<V453000>with some cuda python or shaders it would be faster yeah
16:04<frosch123>does it decide the resulting color based on the rgb value of a single pixel?
16:04<frosch123>or does it combine multiple pixels?
16:04<V453000>single of course
16:04<frosch123>ok, i might write a faster version then :p
16:05<V453000>I'm sure you would write a much faster version
16:05<V453000>but wouldn't combining multiple pixels just mean worse results?
16:06<frosch123>i only asked that to guess the complexity of the task
16:07<frosch123>but if it is essentially a table lookup (r,g,b)->index for each pixel, it shouldn't take that long
16:07<V453000>well I'm sure as hell that you can write it faster
16:07<frosch123>i wondered about integrating it into nml directly
16:08<frosch123>just that i have no idea whether every artist would have their own opinion about the RIGHT CONVERSION
16:08<V453000>for comparison my first version would do such a thing in 50 minutes, Alberth's simplifications and what to me seemed just stylistic changes managed to drop to to about 15 minutes
16:08<V453000>and this is again my code so I am sure you can make it a lot faster since you know what you are doing :P
16:09<V453000>idk about RIGHT CONVERSION but you can always disallow indexes
16:09<V453000>regarding different comparing mechanism, I think this algorithm is correct
16:09<V453000>it's exactly what photoshop does seemingly, and it makes sense
16:10<frosch123>how long does photoshop take?
16:10<V453000>seconds :)
16:10<V453000>if even that, not sure
16:10<V453000>it's fast
16:10<frosch123>ok, so my expectations are not that far off :p
16:10<V453000>my aim wasn't to make it as optimized as possible, I can't do that with my knowledge :)
16:10<V453000>I just needed something automatable and controllable
16:11<V453000>the multithreading helps a lot already
16:11<frosch123>well, you started with threading, and then wanted to throw CUDA at it :p
16:11<V453000>sure, faster to some degree
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16:11<V453000>I learned how to throw 16 threads at it, didn't learn how to optimize code to make it faster
16:13<frosch123>as usual, opposite to andy :)
16:14<andythenorth>I threw multiprocessing pool and partial compiling at my slow compiles
16:14<andythenorth>then I got bored of the headaches, and made the actual compile faster :P
16:15*andythenorth trod a well-trodden path :P
16:15<frosch123>you didn't buy a bigger machine though
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16:18<V453000>see, fast :P
16:18<frosch123>faster than working to make it faster :)
16:18<Wolf01>/me is trying BRIX now.. it's like playing on a moquette
16:19<Wolf01>The tile noise is driving me mad :D
16:19<V453000>interesting comparison Wolf01 :D can't say it's wrong
16:20<milek7>hmm, for 5kx5k image gimp takes 60 seconds
16:20<milek7>surprisingly slow
16:20<milek7>(single threaded)
16:20<Wolf01>My eyes try to cross like when you look at those stereogram pictures
16:23<V453000>milek7: :0
16:23<V453000>Wolf01: :D wow
16:23<V453000>is just noise
16:24<Wolf01>My brain interpretes it as random dot stereogram and it's not a pleasure to stare at it continuously :D
16:24<Wolf01>I need to avoid to zoom in
16:25<V453000>the 8bpp graphics are also noisy though?
16:25<Wolf01>I'm using the 8bpp ones
16:25<Wolf01>You could generate slugs stereograms in tiles
16:26<V453000>did you try 32bpp first? :D
16:26<Wolf01>Mmmh, no
16:26<V453000>the tiles are basically identical in 8bpp though
16:26<V453000>:D k
16:29<frosch123>V453000: any reason you went for YES/NO dropdowns, instead of the red/green buttons?
16:29<Wolf01> try this, and then stare at BRIX
16:30<Wolf01>(better results with sea)
16:32<frosch123>i have no issue with the terrain
16:32<frosch123>2x looks a bit weird, but 1x and 4x are fine
16:36<Samu>what did I just watch?
16:36<Samu>was searching how to sort :(
16:37<Wolf01>That's how sorting algorithms work
16:37<frosch123>it's amazing how little glitches BRIX has at 4x zoom compared to zbase
16:40<LordAro>frosch123: i'm not actually sure how to go further with the Layouter splitting
16:40<frosch123>did you succeed in splitting it?
16:41<LordAro>all except in the Layouter constructor
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16:41<frosch123>i remember there was some template magic
16:41<LordAro>and the icu stuff doesn't compile :p
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16:42<Wolf01>Bogo sort...
16:46<andythenorth>so how do I fix FIRS then?
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16:51<Wolf01>What do you need to fix?
16:53<andythenorth>is totally borked
16:53<andythenorth>all users hate it
16:54<frosch123>does that include you?
16:54<andythenorth>good q
16:54<andythenorth>I don't hate it
16:55<Wolf01>I should try it first
16:55<frosch123>switch users?
16:55<andythenorth>but I agree with their diagnosis of problem
16:55<andythenorth>also FIRS is way more fun when supplies don't get 4x production
16:56<andythenorth>I am playing a game with 1.5x and 2x (gung ho)
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16:57<andythenorth>not sure if it's fun because better, or fun because different
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>make it a setting
17:00<andythenorth>it is :)
17:00<andythenorth>I just never used it before
17:00<andythenorth>I assumed 4x was some winning value
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>change the (default) settings in incompatible ways during versions, to make updating "fun" :p
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>also, if you make it x1.5, you should make it x2.25
17:07<andythenorth>general feedback
17:07<andythenorth>- vehicles should go to towns
17:08<andythenorth>- should be a goods chain
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>i can't read anything in this graph
17:08<andythenorth>that's usually a sign of a bad economy
17:09<andythenorth>I've started refactoring FIRS gameplay to suit the dot algorithm in graphviz :P
17:09*andythenorth not even joking
17:09<frosch123>[23:07] <andythenorth> - vehicles should go to towns <- sin't that the case?
17:09<frosch123>supply yard is not in towns?
17:09<andythenorth>vehicles -> ports, vehicles -> supply yard
17:09<andythenorth>need a vehicle dealer industry I think
17:11<frosch123>there are goods
17:11<frosch123>or do they mean that vehicles should be goods?
17:11<andythenorth>they want vehicles -> vehicle dealer
17:11<andythenorth>and steel -> goods
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>vehicles with TE_GOODS?
17:12<frosch123>steel -> goods feels wrong in steeltown context
17:13<frosch123>there are all these detailed vehicle related cargos produced from steel
17:13<frosch123>just goods is stupid
17:13<andythenorth>that's why it's not there
17:13<andythenorth>I have a split of user opinion on the goods question
17:13<andythenorth>vehicles, they are united :P
17:14<frosch123>well, i don't know who would want less engsup
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>if the opinion is split, means you can ignore it :p
17:14<frosch123>but other than that a vehicle dealer does not hurt
17:14<andythenorth>there is quite enough ensp
17:14<frosch123>about goods: there are already two sources
17:14<andythenorth>the only way to get enough vehicles is to put enough ensp into the chain
17:15<andythenorth>the amounts of raw materials to make 1 vehicle are so high
17:15<andythenorth>ensp is a pre-requisite, rather than a useful output
17:16<frosch123>so you have complains that it is too hard :p
17:16<frosch123>definitely ignore those
17:21*andythenorth moves everything around
17:21<andythenorth>to see if dot looks good
17:33<andythenorth>maybe tomorrow is better :D
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17:35<frosch123>down to 18 seconds
17:39<frosch123>somehow V's spritesheets must be different
17:39<frosch123>single thread is way faster for me
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>when i split CETS into multiple compiles, i ended up with so many files that the overhead of starting up nmlc instances and reading in the files totally ate up most of the benefits of multithreading
17:45<frosch123>yes, andy had the same effect
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>well, i had the original problem that full CETS would kill nmlc with OOM
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>which was an actual problem, not just one of andy's mild annoyances :p
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18:24<_dp_>omg, I just noticed there is a huge blog post about brix
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18:44<_dp_>oh, and even 8bpp-1x version! definitely missed that
18:44<_dp_>V453000, but it on bananas, it's actually something that can sanely be used on servers
18:44<_dp_>tracks look awful in it though :(
18:45<_dp_>is it possible to make default tracks use brix ground sprite?
18:46<_dp_>not sure if rails will be visible on it though. but maglev and mono should be fine
18:48<frosch123>_dp_: md5sum of 32bpp and 8bpp grfs are identical
18:48<frosch123>you can only have one on bananas
18:48<frosch123>but client and server can have different grfs
18:48<frosch123>also brix has a ton of switches to disable various things
18:48<_dp_>frosch123, wut? you mean grfid?
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18:49<frosch123>the md5sum is only computed for the logical part of the grf, not for the sprite data
18:49<frosch123>this allows you to use different 8bpp/32bpp grfs on clients and servers compatibily
18:51<_dp_>but it doesn't allow server to select 8bpp as default version :(
18:52<frosch123>the 8bpp version of brix is created using "grfstrip" which removes selected bpp and zoom levels from a grf without changing the md5 of the logical part
18:52<frosch123>_dp_: that's kind of the intention
18:52<frosch123>anyway, it's a static newgrf
18:52<frosch123>servers shouldn't use it anyway
18:54<_dp_>why not? if I want to combine it with other grfs that look good together
18:54<_dp_>but 80meg download is just not an option for a regular server
18:54<_dp_>1meg for 8bbp is fine
18:55<_dp_>and if people want 32 they can always download it manually
18:55<frosch123>well, there can only be one default :p
19:01<_dp_>there is always an option to use another grfid for different default
19:02<_dp_>why does even static grf even has to be compatible by md5 or grfid?
19:02<_dp_>it will redefine sprites regardless
19:04<_dp_>allowing people to download different "compatible" version is just another way to select static grf
19:05<_dp_>hm, well, I guess it's not exactly the same as it only "activates" if grf is selected
19:06<_dp_>still a feature that hardly anyone well ever use
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---Logclosed Fri Oct 27 00:00:04 2017