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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-10-27

---Logopened Fri Oct 27 00:00:04 2017
---Daychanged Fri Oct 27 2017
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03:41<V453000>_dp_: did you try 8bpp with x4 zoom? :)
03:41<V453000>but seriously, 80MB isn't that bad
03:50<V453000>if you don't want people to download the full thing then you can just point them to use it as static, and use the x4 8bpp version on server
03:50<V453000>might be smarter not to use it a all onserver then and just let them use it as static
03:51<V453000>but yeah there are many options
03:51<V453000>of course making it a base set one day would help
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04:05*andythenorth wrecking FIRS
04:05<andythenorth>total destruction
04:06<andythenorth>users want it
04:06<V453000>which ones? :D
04:06*andythenorth doesn't always do what users want
04:06<andythenorth>but eh
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04:06<andythenorth>there was one called V453000
04:07<andythenorth>and also child #1 here
04:07<V453000>I see
04:07<andythenorth>I have in-house testing now
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04:07<V453000>#1 loves trains so far
04:07<andythenorth>no need for forumz even
04:07<V453000>everything going well
04:08<andythenorth>mostly problem is that cargo graph is ugly
04:08<andythenorth>FIRS design goal is now not gameplay
04:08<andythenorth>is nice graphs
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04:46<andythenorth>probably need to unwreck FIRS now :|
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05:06<andythenorth>can't make nice cargo flow graphs
05:07<andythenorth>delete FIRS?
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05:21<andythenorth>is 'pipeline terminal' a valid industry?
05:22<andythenorth>accepts pipe, supplies petrol, chemicals
05:23<V453000>0 new cargoes to draw
05:23<V453000>is valid
05:32<andythenorth>it's liquids terminal, already in game :P
05:32<andythenorth>just maybe not restricted to coasts :P
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06:39<Samu>i'm trying to make oil rigs to deliver cargo only on oil rig stations
06:40<Samu>let's see if I can do it
06:42<Samu>there's also the exclusivity deal affecting it, so it's gonna be a 2-in-1 fix
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07:46<__ln__>@seen Yexo
07:46<@DorpsGek>__ln__: Yexo was last seen in #openttd 4 years, 47 weeks, 2 days, 22 hours, 30 minutes, and 12 seconds ago: <Yexo> <NGC3982> The station glitches are CHIPS related. I adressed it to Andy the other day, and it seems like it's b0rked in some way. <- it's still in the issue tracker for CHIPS, but I haven't had time to look at it yet
07:56<Samu>i have a question for those familiar with newgrf industries
07:56<Samu>if the industry is built on water, do they always have a station?
07:56<Samu>they're only transported by ships?
07:58<Samu>or can they be on water without any attached station to it?
08:05<Samu>this is starting to complicate, for accepted cargo
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08:14<@Alberth>yes, the only water industry in default set is an oilrig, and all newgrf industries are derived from default set
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09:03<Samu>dealing with cargo acceptance is a bit more complex
09:03<Samu>hi Wolf01
09:04<Wolf01>Fuck space engineers... use the dev channel instead of releasing 3 updates every day... :(
09:04<Samu>so, I want all buildable stations to never accept cargo that an oil rig industry accepts
09:05<Samu>exception is the oilrig station only
09:05<Samu>it's the only station that accepts
09:05<Samu>if you bring passengers or mail to an oil rig inudstry, only the station it provides accepts it
09:06<Samu>all stations you build around, won't accept it
09:06<Wolf01>Oh, ok
09:06<Wolf01>Makes sense, you don't deliver engineers by train to an oil rig
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09:07<Samu>i'm trying to figure a way
09:07<Wolf01>Also you don't deliver 3450 tourists to an oil rig
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09:08<Samu>to make only 1 station accept it, while the others, even being within acceptance range, not accept them, it's hard
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09:46<frosch123>vehicle alignment is horrible
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10:01<@peter1138>So, Catalonia
10:03<Wolf01>I've heard something about it from a doubtful source (9gag), newspapers here don't say anything, what happened?
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10:21<LordAro>they did a thing (again)
10:23<Wolf01>We did it too last Monday
10:23<Wolf01>Or at least we tried...
10:23<Wolf01>The answer was "shut the fuck up"
10:24<Wolf01> uhm, could be a nice purchase
10:25<Samu>I just got myself into another headache :(
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10:26<Samu>for cargo supplied, this was easy
10:26<Samu>for cargo accepted, this is ... hell
10:29<Samu>i need to pass around, the source of the acceptance
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10:48<Samu>cargo accepted by industries built on water are to become only accepted at the industry's own station
10:49<Samu>cargo accepted by anything else around the industry are no never be accepted at the industry's own station
10:52<Samu>i was able to make an oil rig station accept coal :(
10:52<Samu>this can't be
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11:27<Samu>here's the problem
11:27<Samu>the oilfield should not accept coal
11:28<Samu>the oilfield should also not provide iron ore
11:28<Samu>the docks should not accept passengers, nor mail
11:28<Samu>the docks should not provide coal
11:28<Samu>oops oil
11:30<Samu>i've already fixed the "providing"
11:31<Samu>but i'm a bit lost about "acceptance"
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11:47<__ln__>catalonia did it now, finally
11:50<Wolf01>What they want to do now? Put the entire population in prison?
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12:33<Samu>finally got the official catchment area of the heliport at the oilrig
12:33<Samu>it's 4
12:33<Samu>the dock catchment area is 5
12:34<Samu>game picks whichever is higher and uses that
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12:38<Samu>CargoArray GetAcceptanceAroundTiles(TileIndex tile, int w, int h, int rad, uint32 *always_accepted = NULL);
12:38<Samu>this needs to pass one more detail
12:38<Samu>i'm getting somewhere, nice
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12:47<@Alberth>isn't it dependent on the station catchment area?
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12:59<Samu>dauym, got to change a lot :(
13:01<Samu>AddAcceptedCargo_Industry, AddAcceptedCargo_Object, AddAcceptedCargo_Town
13:01<Samu>only 3, lucky me
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13:10<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: probably dissolve the parliament, and put the head of government in prison. possibly use some force
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13:12<Eddi|zuHause>overall, i don't see anyone "winning" in this situation, but the spanish government probably has the longer lever
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13:20<Samu>AddAcceptedCargo_Town is my new headache :(
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13:21<Samu>hmm... :(
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13:22<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: it does seem to have reached a no win situation from a pr standpoint at least
13:24<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: obviously we need a new country, created from catalonia, basque, bavaria, ... ruled by the belgians
13:25<Wolf01>And the Serenissima republic
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: is that one of those micronations?
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>like the guy who declared his own state in a roundabout?
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>that is slightly less micro :p
13:26<Wolf01>We tried to declare independence too :P
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>yeah. i think there was some news recently
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>about more autonomy or something
13:27<Wolf01>Yes, economic autonomy... which was soon taken as a trampoline for the independence XD
13:28<Wolf01>Not that I give a fuck about independence, but I'm fine with the economic autonomy
13:30*andythenorth is living in a newly independent nation
13:30<andythenorth>no longer ruled from Brussels
13:30<andythenorth>now ruled by some other people, that strictly, we didn't all vote for
13:30<andythenorth>all is for the best in the best of all possible worlds
13:30<supermop>'Belgian Empire' would have been maybe more catchy
13:30<frosch123>andythenorth: you live in a *united* kingdom, that's the opposite of independent, isn't it? :p
13:31<supermop>frosch123: holding out hope for Free City of London?
13:31<andythenorth>well at least we're free of the EU :P
13:31<andythenorth>that Irish border might prove tricky though
13:31<supermop>Imperial Belgian Exclave?
13:32<frosch123>supermop: belgium is like the least-united country
13:32<Samu>changing 1 function forces me to change all the involving functions like a chain reaction, :( this is boring
13:32<supermop>andythenorth: the irish border is so boneheaded - seems evidence that many brexiteers never stopped to think about it
13:32<Wolf01>That's why it was chosen to represent the EU
13:32<frosch123>not sure how many people living in belgium acknowledge its existence
13:32<andythenorth>how do I fix FIRS then?
13:32<supermop>frosch123: thats what makes the Belgian Empire so funny
13:33<supermop>to those of us with no post-colonial trauma
13:33<Samu>AddAcceptedCargoSetMask must be changed too
13:33<supermop>andythenorth: with convoluted border tariffs?
13:33<andythenorth>supermop: I read that as 'post-colonial trams'
13:34<andythenorth>I should find my glasses :|
13:34<supermop>haha that too
13:34<supermop>america has been largely tram-free in the post colonial era
13:35<andythenorth>what steeltown might need...
13:35<andythenorth> more esoteric cargos
13:35<andythenorth>I added a builders yard, but it doesn't accept Pipe :P
13:36<supermop>no indoor plumbing in steeltown?
13:36<frosch123>andythenorth: add more metal types
13:37<frosch123>copper, brass, ...
13:37<supermop>obviously Europe needs to revert to a 9th century level of princely states, fiefdoms, and walled cities
13:37<andythenorth>frosch123: I did have more, then I knocked them out
13:37<andythenorth>there was zinc, for galvanising
13:37<Wolf01>Because builders yards use concrete or plastic pipes
13:37<andythenorth>I saw a galvanising truck an hour ago
13:37<andythenorth>Wolf01: probably that, yes
13:38<supermop>andythenorth: pvc factory
13:38<frosch123>metal tools use various alloys
13:38<supermop>i feel like if you are going to have multiple types of metal making facilities might as well have many metals
13:39<frosch123>chrom-vanadium-steel and stuff
13:39<supermop>magnesium for some sweet mag wheels to go on those vehicles
13:39<andythenorth>worth considering
13:39<supermop>chrome for plating the trim on the vehicles
13:39<andythenorth>I think this is a case where maybe I need to take V's advice
13:39<andythenorth>V has 2 kinds of advice
13:39<andythenorth>1. more slugs
13:39<andythenorth>2. make a clear schema for cargo glow
13:39<andythenorth>flow *
13:39<supermop>leather hides for upgraded seates
13:40<andythenorth>the current 'problem' is that to get ENSP you need pretty much the full steel chain running
13:40<andythenorth>and to get enough steel, you need ENSP
13:40<andythenorth>then once you have ENSP the whole chain scales up production by 200%, and there's nothing left to do in the game
13:42<supermop>andythenorth: scramble to accomodate all the extra stuff?
13:42<andythenorth>nah, it's kind of boring
13:42<andythenorth>I have like 3 play testers reporting same (including me)
13:42<supermop>extra capacity goes towards improving the standard of living
13:42*andythenorth wonders if newgrf can set town growth cargos
13:42<frosch123>andythenorth: so more chains, less deep
13:43<supermop>make cars to send to your happy capitalist townsfolk
13:43<frosch123>andythenorth: it's called "town effect"
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13:43<andythenorth>oh yeah :)
13:43<supermop>i think thats why people still like extreme
13:43<andythenorth>it's max 2 cargos, unless I use GS?
13:43<frosch123>you can give multiple cargos the same effect
13:43<supermop>things are all related, but can work separately
13:43<frosch123>that makes town require either of them (not all of them)
13:44*andythenorth didn't know that
13:44<supermop>and you can have many varied challenges, rather than just SteelQuest TM
13:44<andythenorth>it would be nice if towns could grow with goods, vehicles, food, building materials
13:44<supermop>(in extreme)
13:44<supermop>andythenorth: they can?
13:44<supermop>why not
13:44<andythenorth>never explored it
13:44<andythenorth>years ago someone else set the town effects in FIRS
13:45<andythenorth>I left them alone
13:45<supermop>write a firs GS
13:45<Samu> /* static */ int32 ScriptTile::GetCargoAcceptance(TileIndex tile, CargoID cargo_type, int width, int height, int radius)
13:45<supermop>brb lunch
13:45<Samu>is this for AI's?
13:45<Lee14141>Evening everyone
13:46<Samu>i'm unsure how it works
13:46<Samu>is the AI querying a tile, or building a station?
13:46<Samu>anyway, it doesn't matter, it's always false
13:46<Samu>can't build oil rigs
13:50<andythenorth>so if I set TOWNGROWTH_WATER for two cargos, which will be reported as required?
13:50*andythenorth tries it
13:50<frosch123>i think it's supposed to list both
13:50<frosch123>not sure whether i finished that patch
13:50<frosch123>but i was working on it about 7 years ago
13:51*andythenorth testing
13:52<andythenorth>Alberth: FIRS compile keeps getting DoSed by broken Polish translations via eints, anything I can do?
13:53<andythenorth>frosch123: seems to just report one of the cargos, probably the first :)
13:53<andythenorth>(lowest ID afaict)
13:55<@Alberth>remove the offending polish translations would work
13:56<@Alberth>maybe nml should be more tolerant?
13:57<andythenorth>I keep removing the strings and pushing them back
13:57<frosch123>what is broken about them?
13:58<andythenorth>nmlc ERROR: "src/lang/polish.lng", line 772: A gender choice list {G} has to be followed by another string code or provide an offset
13:59<frosch123>ok, so eints should have rejected the translation
13:59<frosch123>andythenorth: replace the "{G..}" with an "y"
13:59<frosch123>if you just remove the line, eints will add it back
13:59<andythenorth>it does yes :)
13:59<frosch123>if you provide a new translation, eints will take your new one
14:02<andythenorth>done, thanks
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14:32<andythenorth>"frosch123: andythenorth: so more chains, less deep" <- more shallow chains, but steel still deep
14:33<andythenorth>dunno about the scrap metal -> steel chain
14:33<andythenorth>also ENSP might as well be abundant
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14:38<Samu>I think I did this... almost there, must test towns a bit better
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14:40<frosch123>imho add more metal and alloy types
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14:40<frosch123>allow each of them to be either processed into goods directly, or to be fed into the big vehicle chain
14:41<Samu>if this ship i'm staring at, is able to load mail at the oilfield station, I failed
14:41<frosch123>basically many short chains to start with, but then you can switch over a share of the products into the big chain
14:42<Samu>it's not loading mail!
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14:42<Samu>I win
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14:54<Wolf01>Are you sure the surroundings of the oil rig produce enough mail?
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15:02<andythenorth>frosch123: probably works
15:02<andythenorth>what metals do we like?
15:02<andythenorth>copper exists
15:02<andythenorth>zinc exists
15:03<Wolf01>Offshore manganese nodules mine
15:04<frosch123>andythenorth: brass, bronce are obvious continuations from them
15:05<frosch123>then you need more exotic metals, like chrome, silver, ...
15:07<V453000>I have had many reports from people since I made YETI that they downloaded a newgrf from bananas and they see ? instead of some sprites ... yet apparently the grf runs properly
15:07<V453000>is it possible to do something about that so that the game makes better sure that it's downloaded whole and functional?
15:07<Wolf01>Better than crc check?
15:08<frosch123>broken bananas downloads have been a mistery since the beginning
15:10<V453000>ok was just wondering what's up with it
15:10<V453000>reports restarted with brix :P
15:10<frosch123>problem is that ottd does not notice when files get truncated
15:10<frosch123>the important stuff is at the beginning of the file
15:12<Wolf01>Make banana create tars with md5 of the content so OTTD could check it
15:12<frosch123>make bananas2 :)
15:12<Wolf01>Yes :P
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15:17<V453000>BTW I was kind of surprised how well does YETI fit BRIX :)
15:17<V453000>the resolution has it's merits
15:17<V453000>andythenorth: FIRS EZ tomorrow?
15:25<V453000>don't need 32bpp but just draw 16 times more pixels
15:25<frosch123>100 MB for a grf with a single vehicle is fine, is it?
15:25<V453000>how are you doing frosch123 ?
15:25<frosch123>currently i broke everything
15:26<V453000>well that sounds like a good start
15:26<frosch123>i made rgba eater 7 times faster though
15:26<V453000>just by making proper code instead of my heap of shit?
15:26<frosch123>i only changed a few lines
15:27<frosch123>1. disable the threading, there is nothing that can be run in paralel, it just locks everything down
15:27<frosch123>2. use getdata/putdata instead of get/putpixel
15:27<V453000>2. was already suggested to me at some point yeah :0
15:27<frosch123>3. use dictionary lookup for already known rgba values
15:27<V453000>that's one thing that is very high on my schedule to learn :)
15:27<V453000>dictionaries and classes
15:28<V453000>using a json as a dictionary at work now for some stuff
15:28<V453000>I'm surprised the threading isn't helpful for you
15:28<frosch123>what would run in parallel?
15:29<frosch123>it's all python, and there is only one python thread
15:29<V453000>strips of images
15:29<V453000>it utilizes all of my threads
15:29<frosch123>well, run it with -t 1 and compare the times
15:29<V453000>I split the image into strips in the temp folder, and merge them after all processing is done
15:29<V453000>I tried many -t values
15:30<V453000>in general 16 threads compared to 1 thread were 8 times faster
15:30<frosch123>for me all -t values are the same until i hit num-cores, then it gets slower
15:30<V453000>and in consistent manner, 8 threads would be 4 times faster
15:30<V453000>could it be some linux vs windoze bs?
15:33<frosch123>afaik the python interpreter lock applies to all python implementations
15:33<frosch123>alberth may know better
15:34<V453000>well people warned me about some similar stuff, and I won't even pretend to understand this stuff
15:34<V453000>but my results were clearly positive
15:38<frosch123>ah, i see, using get/putdata i actually broke the threading :p
15:39<frosch123>every thread processed the whole image, instead of only the strip
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15:42<frosch123> <- anyway, so far for 3
15:42<frosch123>it's faster the more pixels have actually the same color
15:42<frosch123>which are quite a lot in my case
15:49<_dp_>are you using pypy?
15:49<_dp_>because if not you probably should, it generally is few times faster than cpython
15:50<frosch123>"times" is a strong word, do you mean "percent"? :p
15:51<_dp_>was "times" last time I checked :p
15:51<Samu>who can revise this?
15:51<_dp_>and it's good at optimizing computations
15:52<Samu>i wonder if the name "oil_rig" is confusing
15:52<Samu>should it be named "accept_on_water"?
15:52<Samu>or something like that
15:54<Samu>maybe just "on_water"
15:59<Samu>anyone? :(
16:01<Samu>what is patch do is... screw everyone who builds trains to transport oil from oil wells, essentially this
16:01<Samu>oil rigs, I mean
16:02<Samu>i have no idea how it will work with newgrfs
16:05<Samu>ST2: do you have an opinion?
16:05<ST2>not following, but we manage that differently
16:06<andythenorth>pypy is only faster for certain cases
16:06<andythenorth>some of the common web libraries / stacks are slower on pypy, from results I've seen :)
16:08<Samu>ok, preparing the patch, just renaming oil_rig to on_water, seems to make sense in a broader way
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16:15<andythenorth>such train
16:19<andythenorth>split foundry sand and glass sand?
16:21<andythenorth>what are plastics made from?
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16:33<frosch123>andythenorth: chalk, starch, cellulose, wood flour, ivory dust and zinc oxide.
16:33<frosch123>the "ivory" part looks weird to me
16:33<andythenorth>oil much? o_O
16:33<frosch123> <- i guess those things make it interesting
16:34<frosch123>since they overlap with other products
16:34<frosch123>oil is too isolated
16:34<andythenorth>I tried Kaolin yesterday
16:34<andythenorth>wondering if I can remove generic chemicals
16:34<andythenorth>generally steeltown seems to reward more specific cargos
16:39<frosch123>if you ever want a chemical-centered economy, look into resin:
16:45<andythenorth>coal tar also? o_O
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16:51<andythenorth>not sure this is better yet :P
16:53<andythenorth>need more simple cargos to dump into ports
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17:24<Samu>test for bugs plz, or revise
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17:44<Wolf01>Ok, that could be one of the best things you could have done
17:50<Samu>i haven't really tested the exclusive transports right thingy yet, but i suppose it's working as I expect
17:50<Samu>will test now
17:51<supermop>Samu: neat idea, but some people may dislike how it forces you to use ships
17:52<supermop>any ai that cannot use ships, or if a ship newgrf that for some reason doesn't support the water bourne cargo is used...
17:53<supermop>currently a dock on land near the rig can act like a 'pipe line'
17:53<supermop>also sometimes i start a game with FIRS and forget to use a ship set
17:54<supermop>default ships can't carry fish, so then the only way i can get fish is by truck from a station or dock on land near a fishing grounds
17:55<Samu>hmm so... it needs a game settings, is what u say
17:55<supermop>also... at least currently, a station can't get 100% of an industry's cargo
17:55<Samu>to enable or disable this behavioir
17:55<supermop>even if it is the only station at the industry
17:55<supermop>samu, it needs an on/off at least, but possibly granularity
17:56<supermop>so you could prevent the rig from producing iron ore, but allow the dock to produce oil
17:56<Samu>I see
17:57<Wolf01>Yes, at least to not break old games
17:58<Samu>i thought all waterborne industries had a station
17:58<Samu>a neutral station
17:58<Wolf01>Yep, but some weird individuals use normal stations to load from those industries
17:59<Samu>what about the newgrfs
18:00<Samu>do you know of any grf with water industries that don't have a neutral station? that might be a problem
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18:08<FLHerne>Samu: I don't think that can happen
18:09<FLHerne>No, I'm wrong
18:10<FLHerne>And yes, this would break many existing savegames, but I still like it :-)
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18:11<Samu>i failed to understand how exclusive transport rights work,
18:13<TT_>Is there any progress toward fixing the RMB in viewport?
18:15<FLHerne>What's the problem with it?
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18:16<TT_>It doesn't allow to move the viewport with the RMB after windows 10 update
18:16<ST2>it stutters... a loooot xD
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18:16<ST2>gets unplayable
18:16<TT_>Yup, I'm unable to play with that
18:17<ST2>there's a couple workarounds in
18:18<ST2>but you need to compile it yourself :S
18:18<TT_>I've seen them so far, but still waiting for the patch to come out
18:19<Samu>nevermind, i bought exclusive transport rights in the wrong town lol
18:21<Samu>it's werking!
18:22<Samu>a minor nuisance though, the message "company x has bought exclusive transport rights on this town" still being displayed, on the neutral station
18:22<Samu>gotta take that out
18:25<FLHerne>Oh, ok
18:26<Samu>alright, need to create some settings
18:27<Samu>make this feature more configurable
18:27<Samu>per supemop request
18:27<Samu>rip savegame compatibility
18:31<supermop>Wolf01: when the rig is as close to land as in the picture, it seems weirder to use boats than to not.
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i have this mission to test an engine at 13km altitude at 1000m/s speed... any (cheap) ideas?
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18:37<Samu>just removed the exclusivity message from being displayed on oilrig stations
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18:59<Wolf01>supermop: yes, but meh, a rig shouldn't be so close to land
18:59<Wolf01>Also bed, need to do 150km in the morning to get some lego
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20:30<supermop_home>Eddi|zuHause: go up a tall mountain and shoot a rocket?
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21:09<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_home: thing is, any rocket i come up with is way too high by the time it reaches that speed
21:10<Eddi|zuHause>so, i need a supersonic plane
21:10<supermop_home>that's why you need to find a 13km tall mountain and shoot it horizontally
21:11<Eddi|zuHause>sure, if you find me one of those... :p
21:13<supermop_home>so I have a three track terminus with some double headed electric expresses that leave every 48 days, and two other branches to serve
21:13<supermop_home>not sure if I want one of them going twice as frequently as the express
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21:19<supermop_home>celadon color line doesn't run at all yet, trying to figure out how orange will relate to the blue express to create a slot for the new line
21:26<Eddi|zuHause>wtf is a celadon color?
21:26<supermop_home>color of celadon?
21:27<supermop_home>although I guess that shade is bit too vibrant
21:27<supermop_home>'light cyan-ish green'?
21:28<Eddi|zuHause>+5 most helpful answer.
21:29<supermop_home>idk I thought 'celadon' would be more common across languages than some marketing bullshit like 'seafoam'
21:32<supermop_home>based on sounds from other room suddenly everyone in the cowboy show my wife is watching now has SMGs
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21:38<Eddi|zuHause>Sarah Michell Gellars?
22:00<supermop_home>turns out it was P90s
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23:44-!-Biolunar is "Biolunar" on #openttd #suckless
23:51-!-Biolunar_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:57-!-cHawk [~chawk@] has joined #openttd
23:57-!-cHawk is "realname" on #openttd #tor-project #tor
---Logclosed Sat Oct 28 00:00:58 2017