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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-10-30

---Logopened Mon Oct 30 00:00:01 2017
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03:17<zermizh>oh hi
03:18<zermizh>i wish i had known about openttd like 10 years ago. i used to play this stuff when i was 6 or something
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04:17<__ln__>hello early wolf
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04:17<PressureLine>haha I remember playing TTO like 20 years ago
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04:48<PressureLine>Why can't I get a 'happy medium' between:
04:48<PressureLine>"so many industries on a map I spend half my time routing trains around them"
04:48<PressureLine>"wtf the 'only' paper mill is 1000 tiles from all the forests"
04:49<Wolf01>Map size and number of towns affect industries
04:53<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: what if the wolf is not early, but the time is late?
04:54<PressureLine>seems a tad excessive for Low/Low on a 512*1024
04:55<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: especially today that is a possibility indeed
04:57<Eddi|zuHause>PressureLine: consider that the map size just multiplies everything from the original 256x256, instead of spacing things out
04:58<PressureLine>just weird is all, that setting the industires to V.Low
04:59<PressureLine>turns the map into a howling wilderness
04:59<Eddi|zuHause>try towns to v.low and industries to low?
04:59<Eddi|zuHause>possibly enabling/disabling multiple of the same industry per town?
05:02<PressureLine>is disabled
05:06<PressureLine>more of a general gripe really.
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08:41<Samu>v3 is posted, also edited the topic
08:41<Samu>to be a bit more clear
08:41<Samu>tell me if it's still confusing
08:46<Samu>Allow non-industry stations to be supplied with cargo supplied by the industry
08:46<Samu>this line is too long
08:46<Samu>must shorten it, any halp!
08:47<Samu>Allow non-industry stations to supply cargo supplied by its industry?
08:48<PressureLine>"When disabled, industries with attached stations can only accept cargo their respective industries demand"
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08:49<PressureLine>"When disabled, industries with attached stations can only accept cargo their respective industries demand"
08:49<PressureLine>so when enabled
08:49<PressureLine>cargodist can route 'other' cargos through the oilrig stations
08:50<Samu>oh, this is not directly related to cargodist
08:51<PressureLine>like if there is a wood carrying helicopter that lands at the rig, it caould drop the wood and the wood be picked up by a ship (or whatever) for onwards transport
08:51<PressureLine>when disabled the wood can not be dropped off at the station?
08:51<Samu>the industry or an industry nearby must accept wood, right?
08:52<PressureLine>with cargodist, not neccesarily
08:52<Samu>i really wish to know how cargodist behaves
08:53<Samu>it may affect cargodist in some way, but i'm not directly making changes to cargodist code
08:53<PressureLine>(not directly realted to settings phrasing but...) the reason I ask is:
08:53<PressureLine>a) to figure out what the setting does
08:54<PressureLine>b) wondering if it might break cargodist in some way
08:55<PressureLine>the idea with cargodist is that it can give an invisible 'transfer' order to all or part of a vehicles load
08:57<Samu>okay let me think. this is a bit confusing even for me if the oil rig station
08:57<PressureLine>so in the screenshot
08:57<PressureLine>the trams have 2 orders
08:58<PressureLine>"Full Load Any Cargo" at Puthwaite Springs Mines
08:58<PressureLine>and "Goto Brindingstone Mines"
08:59<PressureLine>cargodist tells the trams "unload & leave empty" at Brindingstone so that the Iron Ore can be loaded onto the big ore trains that head off to the northwest
09:00<Samu>Brindingstone Mines doesn't accept iron ore, but it's still transferred there, right?
09:00<Samu>i see
09:00<PressureLine>brindingstone doesnt accept anything iirc
09:02<PressureLine>so if you're blocking 'forced' unloading (of non accepted cargos) at intrinsic stations (oil rigs)
09:02<PressureLine>cargodist has to have some way of knowing
09:03<PressureLine>otherwise it may try to route 'other' cargoes through the oil rig station
09:03<Samu>if the oil rig station never provides wood, but an helicopter brings wood there, what is supposed to happen?
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09:04<PressureLine>if, for some reason there is a way for the wood to get from the oilrig to it's eventual destination (other than by staying on the helo)
09:04<PressureLine>it would get unloaded at the oilrig, then get picked up by the next vehicle that gets the wood closer to it's destination
09:05<Samu>in the case of the iron ore transfer, there is another iron ore there
09:05<PressureLine>if the brindingstone iron ore mine closes down
09:05<PressureLine>it will all still work
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09:06<Samu>ok let me test this out, brb
09:06<PressureLine>try with mail.
09:07<PressureLine>go townA->oilrig and townB->oilrig, with separate ships (or helicopters) for each leg
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09:11<Samu>ship 1, town a to oil rig
09:11<Samu>ship 2, town b to oil rig
09:11<Samu>cargo dist enabled
09:11<PressureLine>cargo is mail?
09:12<Samu>oh, mail, sure, i was trying passenger, my bad
09:12<PressureLine>doesn;t matter too much, as long as that cargo type is set to either asymmetric or symmetric
09:12<PressureLine>setting it to manual essentially disables cargodist
09:13<Samu>it's asymmetric
09:13<Samu>i don't think it will make a difference
09:13<Samu>the oil rig always accepts mail
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09:14<Samu>but i dunno how cargo dist work, so let's see
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09:14*PressureLine sighs
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09:17<Samu>i see the ships sometimes do transfer, sometimes do income
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09:19<PressureLine>just scrolled down in the topic and saw the screenshots
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09:19<PressureLine>weird that IOre would stockpile @ the oilrig, guess it has a catchment area just like any other station?
09:20<@peter1138>fix it samu
09:20<Samu>it is fixed
09:21<PressureLine>massive brain fart
09:21<PressureLine>just realised that 'accept' has a very specific meaning in regards to OpenTTD stations
09:22<Samu>i take it my descriptions are still confusing
09:22<PressureLine>is in "accept = i will recieve payment for cargo of this type unloaded here"
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09:24<PressureLine><Samu> i take it my descriptions are still confusing
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09:24<PressureLine>a little, yes
09:24<PressureLine>what is the difference between:
09:25<PressureLine>"When disabled, stations attached to industries, such as Oil Rigs, won't accept cargo that is not accepted by the industries these stations are attached to"
09:25<PressureLine>"When disabled, industries with attached stations can only accept cargo their respective industries demand"
09:27<Samu>for the first, if the oil rig accepts passengers, and a power station that accepts coal, the oil rig station won't accept coal
09:29<Samu>yeah, even myself get confused
09:29<PressureLine>i get it
09:29<PressureLine>so if you have a tain station, whose catcchment area covers the oil rig
09:30<PressureLine>it will get [a portion of] the oil generated
09:30<PressureLine>if the setting is 'Enabled'
09:30<Samu>if enabled, it behaves as of 1.7.1
09:31<Samu>that is about cargo supply
09:31<PressureLine>so the passengers the oil rigs accept
09:32<PressureLine>if i have a train station, whose catchment area covers the rig
09:32<PressureLine>even if the train station covers nothing else
09:32<PressureLine>it will accept passengers
09:32<PressureLine>[with the setting set to 'Enabled']
09:33<Samu>yes, the 2nd setting
09:33<PressureLine>dangerous setting
09:33<PressureLine>-fringe case-
09:33<PressureLine>i make a new industry newgrf
09:33<Samu>train station is a non-industry station
09:34<PressureLine>it is a steel mill, with a *built-in* train station
09:34<Samu>allow train station to accept cargo accepted by the industry
09:34<PressureLine>(idk if that is even possible, but whatever)
09:34<Samu>if enabled, the train station will accept passengers
09:34<Samu>if disabled, the train station won't accept passengers
09:35<PressureLine>if i 'disable' that setting (because it makes sense for oil rigs)
09:35<PressureLine>it would mean that I would *only* be able to unload IOre at the built-in station
09:35<Samu>are there steel mills with built-in train stations?
09:35<Samu>damn, i need that grf
09:36<PressureLine>like i said, i don't know if that is even *possible*
09:36*PressureLine gasps
09:36<PressureLine>even worse
09:37<PressureLine>steel mill with a helipad
09:37<PressureLine>now can only accept steel landed on the roof by helicopter
09:37<Samu>as long as the station is of type OIL_RIG
09:37<Samu>my code should still work
09:38<PressureLine>in the case of my steel mill helipad
09:38<PressureLine>i think the station type would probably *have* to be OIL_RIG
09:39<Samu>+bool HasIndustryStation(const Industry *i)
09:39<PressureLine>more descriptive desriptions!
09:39<Samu>it iterates over all industry tiles
09:39<Samu>looks for the Gfx 24
09:39<PressureLine>for setting #2
09:40<Samu>i think gfx 24 is special
09:41<Samu>two of them arranged together, will make one to transform itself into an OIL_RIG station
09:41<PressureLine>"When disabled, industries with attached stations, such as Oil Rigs, can only recieve [accept?] goods from their attached station."
09:42<PressureLine>Goods *is* a cargo lol
09:43<Samu>can only accept goods their industry with an attached station accepts, lol
09:44<PressureLine>2nd Setting: Title: "Allow other stations to accept cargo accepted by the industry"
09:45<PressureLine>better but still lacking. I tell my wife off for saying things like that.
09:46<PressureLine>because it is very unclear which industry(ies) it is actually talking about
09:49<PressureLine>2nd Setting: Title: "Allow other stations to accept cargo accepted by industries with attached stations"
09:49<supermop>found another alignment issue
10:04<Samu>2nd setting tittle: "Allow other stations to accept cargo accepted by industries with attached station"
10:04<Samu>yeah, like that
10:05<Samu>but then it becomes gigantic line
10:05<PressureLine>yeah :/
10:06<Samu>we need a master english
10:07<Samu>"allow train station to accept passengers when the attached station of an industry accepts passengers"
10:07<Samu>pretty hard to shorten this
10:08<Samu>allow non-industry stations to accept cargo accepted by the attached industry?
10:08<Samu>by the industry'
10:08<PressureLine><Samu> we need a master english
10:09<PressureLine>considering that English is the *only* language I speak
10:09<Samu>oh, I'm sorry
10:09<PressureLine>In theory, I should be a master
10:09<PressureLine>in practice... not so much :D
10:11<Samu>allow other stations near an industry to accept cargo
10:11<Samu>accept the cargo
10:12<Samu>accept its cargo?
10:12<PressureLine>but it needs to be clear that it is only for industries with an attached/integral station
10:13<Samu>allow other stations near an indunstry station to accept its cargo
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10:14<Samu>Allow other stations near an industry station to accept its cargo
10:14<Samu>accept the cargo
10:15<PressureLine>wow. 3am
10:15<Samu>2pm here
10:15<PressureLine>and out of cigarettes >_<
10:16<Wolf01>I'm out of biscuits again
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10:16<andythenorth>Computer terminals report some gains in the values of copper and tin
10:16<andythenorth>While American businessmen snap up Van Goghs
10:16<andythenorth>For the price of a hospital wing
10:17<Samu>Wolf01: :(
10:18<PressureLine>leave them like that
10:18<LordAro>andythenorth: i've not heard that in quite some time
10:18*andythenorth adding tin to Steeltown
10:19<andythenorth>are Big Country related to Delamitri?
10:19<PressureLine>STR_CONFIG_SETTING_ACCEPT_NONINDCARGO_AT_INDSTATION = "Accept non-industry cargo at industry station"
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10:19<andythenorth>both Scottish eh :P
10:19<PressureLine>ohh... andy
10:19<PressureLine>damn. where did that screenshot go
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10:20<andythenorth>hey look, a supermop connection
10:20<andythenorth>and Pikka
10:20<andythenorth>maybe Steeltown is Destiny
10:21<supermop>hmm i have never heard of that band
10:21<PressureLine>ive noticed some of the trams in Road Hog aren't aligned to the 'standard' tram tracks?
10:21<andythenorth>looks like a bug
10:21<PressureLine>does indeed
10:21<supermop>PressureLine: i have noticed the same on some of my trams
10:22<PressureLine>idk if it's just the default tram tracks being'too' narrow gauge
10:22<supermop>if you dont mind looking at them to find other alignment issues -
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10:23<Samu>gonna rename to "Accept non-industry cargo at industry station", if it's clearer than "Allow industry stations to accept cargo to other destinations"
10:23<supermop>PressureLine: i find they are aligned on one side and not on the other, so i worry that fixing it in template would mean the alignment no longer works when driving on other side
10:23<supermop>Andy draws for drive on left, so you could try that and see if the problem remains???
10:23<PressureLine>i think i've only been using them in 'drive on right'
10:24<supermop>otherwise, it might be better to 'fix' the track spacing
10:24<supermop>i can't decide if i am going to fix the trams or the tracks - i need to test more with other sets and with drive on left
10:25<Samu>that's it, gonna rename the things
10:26<Samu>make it like the string
10:26<Samu>it needed to be shorter anyway
10:26<PressureLine>looks like for road hog its a 'drive on right' thing
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10:29<PressureLine>great set though!
10:32<PressureLine>I'd actually been thinking of getting Foobar's tram tracks, but since I mostly do cargo games, and usually only use trams and trucks for short feeders it's never been enough of an issue for me worry about it too much
10:34<Samu>peter1138: do you english?
10:34<Samu>maybe you could help
10:34<PressureLine>anyway. better get some sleep so i can be of *some* use at work tomorrow
10:34<PressureLine>erm... later this morning i guess.
10:34<Samu>take care
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10:41<Samu>it's shorter!
10:41<Samu>and probably more misleading
10:41<Samu>but it's shorter
10:43<@peter1138>So many settings :S
10:44<Samu>only 4
10:44<Samu>but describing them in a short manner is the biggest issue
10:44<@peter1138>Why does it need four?
10:44<Samu>because they're 4 behaviours
10:46<Samu>it needs 4 because supermop wanted customization
10:46<Samu>and it makes sense to be 4
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10:48<Samu>even explaining each is hard
10:49<Samu>accept non industry cargo at industry station
10:49<Samu>industry station in this case is "oil rig station"
10:49<Samu>accept non industry cargo means, for example
10:50<Samu>accept coal which a nearby station, other than the oil rig station, accepts
10:50<Samu>if the catchment area of the oil rig reaches the power plant, the setting lets you the oil rig accept coal or not
10:51<Samu>looks like my explanation is bad too
10:51<Samu>accept coal which a nearby industry, other than the oil rig industry, accepts*
10:51<Samu>oil rig station
10:51<Samu>OMG FU :o
10:53<Samu>accept coal which a nearby industry accepts, instead of accepting it at the oil rig station when it's catchment radius reaches the other industry?
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10:53<Samu>see? this is why it's hell explaining
10:53<Samu>Alberth: do you english more than peter1138 ?
10:54<@Alberth>don't know
10:55<Samu>ok, a quick look at these 4 settings, do they look clear to u
10:55<LordAro>peter1138 doesn't know any English
10:57<@Alberth>what is a non-industry cargo?
10:57<@Alberth>all cargo comes from industry, doesn't it?
10:58<Samu>non-industry cargo is for example, coal
10:58<Samu>if coal is accepted at the oil rig station catchment area
10:59<Samu>because a power plant is nearby
10:59<@Alberth>I am pretty sure a coal-mine is an industry
10:59<Samu>ok, explaining is the hard part
11:00<supermop>Alberth: he means it is not for the industry of which the station is a part
11:00<Samu>yes, plz help me, i need help indeed
11:01<Samu>oil rig, the industry, accepts passenger and mail
11:01<Samu>oil rig, the station, can accept more than that
11:01<@Alberth>coal mine also accepts passengers iirc
11:01<Samu>if there is for example, a power plant within catchment radius
11:01<@Alberth>although you need more than one to acceptance, iirc
11:03<Samu>the setting makes so that the oil rig, the station, only accept that which the oil rig industry, accepts
11:03<Samu>because it's attached to it
11:03<@Alberth>text doesn't say anything specific about that station, just stations in general
11:04<@Alberth>and those are not related to industries at all, afiak
11:04<Samu>i needed a generalistic approach
11:04<Samu>because of newgrfs, re-using oil rigs
11:04<@Alberth>water-based industry would do, imho
11:04<Samu>firs uses dredge site, sandbank
11:05<Samu>it can't be water-based industry, either
11:05<Samu>there are some firs water based industries without neutral stations
11:06<Samu>fishing harbout i think
11:07<Samu>the settings are related to industries with attached stations
11:07<Samu>it made more sense to me to group them into Environment/Industries
11:08<Samu>but they're also station related
11:08<Samu>so, it's a mix of both station and industry
11:08<Samu>not sure where i would put them
11:11<Samu>so it's not clear
11:12<@Alberth>ports are not water-based, you can't build them in the water
11:12<@Alberth>neither is harbour
11:13<@Alberth>by generalizing, you include all stations, which is not what your patch is doing, afaik
11:13<Samu>oh :(
11:14<Samu>the patch affects both stations
11:14<Samu>oil rigs, and "not oil rigs"
11:15<Samu>setting 1 and 3 is for oil rigs
11:15<Samu>setting 2 and 4 is for other stations nearby
11:17<@Alberth>you should probably not talk about stations in context of oilrigs, as there is no station drawn
11:17<@Alberth>ie what happens technically is not always what a user sees.
11:19<@Alberth>to a user, the industry itself handles cargo transfer
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11:21<Samu>are there water based industryies without a neutral station?
11:22<Samu>some newgrf or such?
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11:24<@Alberth>not that I know
11:25<Samu>for me it isn't obvious that ports are not water based
11:26<Samu>most of it is on water :(
11:26<Samu>if it can be generalized to "water-based industries", wouldn't it be confusing?
11:29<Samu>hmm oilrigs don't have a station drawn
11:29<Samu>hmm,,, think
11:29<Samu>water-based industry
11:33<Samu>"accept non-industry cargo at industry station" = "allow water-based industries to accept cargo accepted by the nearby industries other than this"
11:33<Samu>sometimes it's not even nearby industries, but towns
11:35<Samu>"accept cargo accepted by the surroundings at water-based industries"
11:36<Samu>english is the biggest issue here
11:36<Samu>cus the patch is doing it's work correctly
11:39<@Alberth>allow water-based industries to accept other cargoes than their own
11:40<@Alberth>or "... than what they need"
11:41<Samu>"Allow water-based industries to accept other cargoes than what they need"
11:41<Samu>looks big
11:43<@Alberth>it's just a suggestion
11:43<Samu>"Water industries accept other cargoes than what they need"
11:43<Samu>yes, it's just that it may need horizontal scrolling
11:45<Samu>woah, it fits, it's nearly in the limit
11:46<@Alberth>"Water industries accept other cargoes"
11:47<@Alberth>window size doesn't mean much. Pick another font or another size, and it fails
11:47<Samu>"water industries accept other cargoes"
11:48<Samu>may mislead
11:48<Samu>it's not exactly the industry accepting it, but something near the industry that accepts it
11:49<Samu>near the station, that is
11:49<Samu>oil rig station
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12:06<Samu>"industry stations can accept cargoes not destined to the industry"
12:06<Samu>"water industries can accept cargoes with other destinies"?
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12:09<Samu>"water industries can accept cargoes for the neighbourhood"?
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12:13<Samu>"stations can accept cargoes destined to water industries"?
12:14<Samu>"water industries can supply cargo at stations"?
12:15<Samu>implying that water industries aren't stations is so confusing for me
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12:17<Samu>"stations can supply cargoes originated from water industries"?
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12:26<Samu>how do i use the word nigh in this context?
12:26<Samu>"water industries can accept nigh cargoes" "cargoes for the nigh"
12:27<supermop>should not use nigh in any modern or technical case
12:27<Samu>dear supermop, halp me a bit
12:27<supermop>it is an archaic word used only for extreme effect or mood
12:27<Samu>oh, oki
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12:28<supermop>eg speaking about a religious apocalypse
12:29<Gustavo6046>let me fix something
12:29<Gustavo6046>wrong link
12:29<Samu>i need 4 strings and their descriptions
12:29<Gustavo6046>like, double save
12:29<Samu>can u do that for me supermop :p
12:29<supermop>oooh is this a pathfinder thing?
12:30<supermop>samu: maybe after lunch
12:30<Samu>really? woah, thx
12:31<supermop>Gustavo6046: it made like a dick
12:31<Gustavo6046>I need to fix something
12:31<Gustavo6046>like a dick? lmao it's a train
12:31<supermop>but the pathfinder then drew a dick
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12:51<Samu> that 4th setting requires horizontal scrolling :8
12:51<Samu>grrr grgrgrfgnaingfap i hate myself
13:10<Wolf01>I think that those settings belong to "infrastructures" and not to "industries", as you are speaking about "stations", also you can drop the "allow" and put it in place of the "on / off" string
13:11<Gustavo6046>Vanilla OpenTTD settings are already grouped very unintuitively, so I think he does not need to worry about that, Wolf01.
13:12<Wolf01>Then just add settings where you want and create more chaos instead of try to fix at least what you are adding now?
13:15<Wolf01>Also I think that 2 of those settings belong to the stations directly and not globally (the non-industry stations), for the industry stations global could be ok as you don't have control over them
13:22<Samu>there is no Infrastructure group
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13:22<Samu>there's a Limitations group, do you mean that?
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13:24<Wolf01><Samu> there is no Infrastructure group <- add it?
13:26<Samu>in my opinion, they're all related to industries
13:26<Samu>why split in half
13:28<Wolf01>Ahahaah Vodafone decided to go back to monthly subscription (they passed from 30€/month to 30€/28 days, so getting 30€/year more), now for sure they won't charge 32.50€/month but round to 33€/month (32.99) so they will get 36€/year more!
13:28<Wolf01>Double win.
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13:31<Samu>Water industries can accept cargoes destined for the neighbourhood
13:31<Samu>is this good englisho?
13:35<Samu>attempt #9000+
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13:52<supermop>samu, it's fine grammar but it's not quite clear to maybe the uninitiated user what exactly it is referring to
13:53<supermop>and like someone said, a casual user might not ever really think about the distinction between an oil rig and its built-in station
13:53<supermop>so need to be careful that you dont suggest that that the oil rig might start 'consuming' other cargo
13:54<Cubey>It's not ungrammatical but I have no idea what it means
13:54<Cubey>Or any of the new options in that screenshot, really
13:55<Cubey>What are "water industries"? Not clear to me if that means oil rigs, water towers in tropic climate, or something else
13:56<Samu>water industries are those built on water, per Alberth
13:57<Cubey>There might be a more clear term for that
13:57<Samu>and if they're built on water, they got a station
13:57<Cubey>But also the behaviors described don't mean anything to me
13:57<Samu>it must imply that it's an industry on water with an attached station, but without actually saying this all
13:57<Cubey>What does it mean for a station to "Accept cargoes destined to nearby industries"
13:57<Cubey>Is the purpose of that setting to prevent players from building a train station with an oil rig in its cachement area?
13:59<Samu>where did you read that "Accept cargoes destined to nearby industries", that is misleading if it's written like that
13:59<Cubey>It seems like the actual functionality of these settings is to control whether water-based industries (or industries that can be approached by ships) use only their built in station, or can also interact with other nearby stations as ground-based industries do
13:59<Cubey>I left out the word water
14:00<Cubey>The phrasing "cargoes destined to" is impenetrable though
14:01<Samu>yes, it is used for controlling, like you said
14:01<Cubey>Why does this have to be broken out into so many options? Why not just a single toggle for whether "water industries" can be serviced from user-built stations
14:01<Cubey>Or two options, one "water industries can accept cargo from user built stations" and another "water industries can supply cargo to user built stations"
14:01<Samu>it is just for customizability
14:02<Cubey>What is the difference between the last two options then?
14:02<Cubey>In the screenshot
14:02<Samu>water industries can also supply cargo at stations, means that an oil rig producing oil, can also supply oil to a train station
14:03<Samu>wait a minute, im so confused lol
14:03<Cubey>See! It is confusing
14:04<Samu>let me copy paste my helptext
14:04<Samu>STR_CONFIG_SETTING_SUPPLY_NONINDCARGO_AT_INDSTATION :Water industries can also supply cargoes at stations: {STRING2} STR_CONFIG_SETTING_SUPPLY_NONINDCARGO_AT_INDSTATION_HELPTEXT :When disabled, stations attached to industries can only provide cargoes from the industries they're linked to
14:04<supermop>what cubey is saying, is why not have like a simple on/off for the patch
14:04<Samu>STR_CONFIG_SETTING_SUPPLY_INDCARGO_AT_NONINDSTATION :Stations can also supply cargoes from water industries: {STRING2} STR_CONFIG_SETTING_SUPPLY_INDCARGO_AT_NONINDSTATION_HELPTEXT :When disabled, industries with attached stations can only provide cargoes to the industries they're linked to
14:05<supermop>"Allow User Stations to Service Industries with integral station"?
14:06<Cubey>Maybe these controls make more sense from a programmatic point of view, in that they reflect more closely how the game works
14:06<Cubey>But there needs to be another layer of abstraction between the program and the user in this case
14:06<Cubey>The use case for this is "I don't want players to be able to build islands with train stations next to oil rigs"
14:07<Cubey>If I wanted that, I would not know what to do given the four options in the screenshot
14:07<Cubey>I guess I would turn them all off
14:07<Samu>but oil rigs can also supply cargo and accept cargo from the neighbourhood
14:07<Cubey>I don't know what "the neighborhood" refers to either
14:08<Cubey>Does that mean the cachement area?
14:08<Samu>yes, catchment area
14:08<Cubey>Or catchment area, however it is spelled
14:08<Cubey>You should probably use consistent terminology with the rest of the settings there at least
14:09<Cubey>But more importantly, in what use cases would the user want to enable some of these options but not all
14:09<Samu>the wording of setting 3 and 4 is confusing indeed
14:09<Cubey>I'm not sure they are meaningfully distinct from a gameplay point of view
14:09<supermop>then in the description you can write something like, "Industries with built-in stations, like Oil Rigs can supply and receive cargo from user built nearby stations. Stations at such industries can supply and receive cargo from other nearby industries."
14:10<Samu>setting 3 is for the industry station, if it is allowed to provide cargo from neighbouring sources (catcment area)
14:10<Cubey>So you're saying is that if there is like an oil rig next to a fishing ground, you could load fish at the oil rig's built in station?
14:10<Samu>setting 4 is for your station, let's say, a train station, if it is allowed to provide cargo from the industry
14:10<Cubey>And one of the settings disables that
14:11<supermop>Samu: do you think a user needs all 4 options, or just on/off?
14:11<supermop>personally, i would always use 'off', and it sounds like you would use 'on', is there a need for any other option in between?
14:11<Samu>supermop needs
14:12<Cubey>I think it's either one choice or two choices
14:12<Cubey>But not four meaningful choices
14:12<supermop>Samu: all i would need would be a method to maintain the current trunk behavior
14:12<Samu>current trunk behaviour is enabling them all
14:12<supermop>like my wording above
14:12<Samu>but ok, i'll see if i can reduce this to 2 settings
14:13<supermop>basically you have two behavior changes; 1) for the industry and 2) for the built in station
14:13<Cubey>If it's two settings, one of those corresponds to some combination of the existing four being in a mixed state
14:13<Cubey>Yeah, I agree with supermop
14:14<Cubey>The useful mixed state is "I want this behavior turned off for user stations but not for the oil rig station"
14:14<Cubey>Or vice versa
14:14<supermop>so you just need to decide 1) do other regular stations work with the industry, and 2) does the station work with other regular industies
14:15<Samu>setting 3 is really misleading though, thx for bringing it up
14:15<supermop>with those two choices you get a lot of nuance, i am not sure anyone would turn 1 on and 2 off, or vis-versa
14:15<Cubey>It seems to me like 1&2 and 3&4 should be combined
14:16<supermop>so you might be able to combine it into 1
14:16<Cubey>Oh no wait maybe it's 1&3 and 2&4
14:16<Samu>lel :)
14:16<Cubey>I'm not even sure because it's so confusing
14:17<Cubey>Yeah I think you would always want the value of 1==3 and 2==4
14:18<Samu>install the patch, and try this savegame
14:18<Samu>see how acceptance, suppliance changes
14:18<Samu>let me post savegame
14:21<Samu>there's 2 ships, one is oil ship, the other is iron ore ship
14:21<Samu>both ships visit both stations
14:21<Samu>it's the savegame i used to create those screenshots
14:22<supermop>Samu: here is my question, conceptually
14:22<supermop>here we have 3 stations
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14:23<supermop>one for a town, one at the mine, and one by the oil rig
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14:24<supermop>why should the dock near the rig not catch the oil, but the station by the mine does catch the ore from the mine
14:24<supermop>and the dock near the town does catch the passengers from the town
14:25<supermop>why should the dock at the far right behave differently with respect to the oil, than the other two stations do?
14:25<@peter1138>Hmm, Saturn V on backorder?
14:25<Samu>it's because the difference is the existance of the neutral station. the idea was to use it
14:26<Samu>but i understand your point
14:26<Samu>it's not really because it's crossing water
14:28<Samu>well, it is, depending on the point of view, so that's why I welcome customization
14:29<Samu>the wording again... "water industry" comes into play
14:30<Samu>what the code is doing is looking for industries with an attached station. it just so happend that the attached station is OIL_RIG, and the industry is on water
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14:35<Samu>if the oil rig on your screenshot had no station
14:36<Samu>attached to it
14:36<Samu>the code would treat that oil rig industry as a normal one, that dock would always accept passengers and engineering supplies
14:36<Samu>regardless of your setting
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14:39<Samu>if u know of any newgrf with water industries without stations, then yes, the wording "water industry" is wrong, because the way it is put right now, is assuming all water industries to have an attached station
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14:40<Samu>blame Alberth
14:43<supermop>how does the neutral station affect gameplay differently? (it does, but i'm not sure to a degree that warrants a change)
14:44<supermop>if the issue is that a player owned station with better rating would 'steal' oil that would otherwise be available to all players at the neutral station, i am not sure that is a compelling reason
14:44<supermop>as this is what happens at every other industry
14:45<supermop>conversely (i think), a player could serve the oil rig well for years, building up good ratings and high production, and then another player can dock a ship at the rig and take the oil without having done the initial 'work'
14:46<Samu>oh, the oil produced at the oil rig is always available at the oil rig station
14:46<supermop>so if it is a competitive server, neutral stations might actually be worse than 'selfish' land based stations
14:47<Samu>what you disable is the oil being available at a dock
14:47<Samu>it's not disabled at the oil rig
14:47<supermop>because if two players have separate docks near the rig, at least the player with better service gets more oil
14:48<supermop>samu, i know it is available at the rig, but in the game, if the land based dock has higher rating, it gets more oil - is that what you are trying to prevent?>
14:48<supermop>my question is, what is the need to prevent oil from appearing at the dock
14:49<frosch123>andythenorth: building materials are meh
14:49<Samu>it's just so that the player is forced to use the oil rig station instead
14:49<supermop>Samu: why
14:49<supermop>why force them
14:49<frosch123>slag plant -> trading post is about the same two cargos
14:50<Samu>because uhm... the industry provides a station, it's just because of this
14:50<Samu>use it, don't make your own station if there's a neutral one
14:50<supermop>if i serve the oil rig with a dock or train station, how does that ruin or hurt gameplay to the extent that it must be banned
14:51<supermop>if i have my own station, i can control the rating there with advertisements etc
14:51<supermop>a neutral one i cannot
14:51<supermop>at a neutral one, a competitor can dock a huge boat 1 day before my boat arrives, and take all the oil
14:52<supermop>at a neutral helipad, a competitor can park a helicopter and prevent mine from ever landing
14:52<Samu>ah, i see, griefing
14:52<supermop>no, not necessarily
14:53<supermop>what if the other player simply is afk and forgot to restart the helicopter
14:53<Samu>call an admin, i dunno, really didn't think about that
14:53<supermop>what i am saying is, there might be a reason here, but i am not sure it is worth it
14:54<supermop>basically you are creating a division, where all normal cargo has a particular ruleset around it - build your own station, provide the best service, and you get the most cargo.
14:55<supermop>if a competitor wants to take cargo from there, they have to compete for it, by providing a better (or at least almost as good) service
14:55<andythenorth>frosch123: I agree building materials are meh
14:56<andythenorth>if there were town effects...
14:56<andythenorth>the less so
14:56<supermop>but you are making a distinction at the oil rig, by saying that oil at the oil rig is special case
14:56<supermop>that you cannot use the normal rules of good service = more cargo here
14:57<Samu>i think it's a matter of taste now, you turn 4th setting off if you want the vanilla behaviour
14:57<supermop>that this cargo is only available on a first come, first served basis
14:58<supermop>anyone can take it, and there is nothing you can do to secure a particular share for yourself
14:58<Samu>it rotates between all vehicles, as long as they don't park
14:58<supermop>and all of that is fine - but it is a very deliberate departure
14:58<supermop>what i want to know, is, is there a demand for that?
14:58<Samu>yes, I demand it
14:59<Samu>I demanded it so much I created a patch
14:59<supermop>ok then, i want to know why, for you, enforcing that behavior makes the game better
14:59<supermop>because understanding that gameplay angle probably helps inform the patched behavior itself
15:00<Samu>well, first because I hate to see trains going there taking oil instead of using ships. there's btpro servers with a fugly workaround the issue, so yes, i think there's demand other than myself
15:01*andythenorth hasn't read logs
15:01<andythenorth>if the issue is banning neutral stations, then remove them in newgrf
15:01<andythenorth>just don't include the tile
15:01<andythenorth>what do I miss?
15:02<supermop>andythenorth: opposite of banning neutral stations
15:02<Samu>andythenorth: are u familiar with newgrf industries? does Gfx 24 ring a bell, or 1C?
15:02<supermop>banning servicing of any industry with a station by player built stations
15:03<Samu>exactly that
15:03<supermop>Samu: why do you hate to see trains going to the rig? what if the rig is right next to land?
15:04<Samu>well, i still prefer to see ships going there
15:04<supermop>also, how is trains at rigs non-competitive/griefing such that it needs to be banned
15:04<Samu>it's my own preference
15:04<supermop>Samu: most rigs in real life send their oil to shore by pipeline, not ships
15:05<supermop>tankers going back and forth over a short distance arguably looks more weird than some installation on shore receiving the oil
15:06<supermop>why do those servers ban the trains going there?
15:06<Samu>for competition issues
15:06<supermop>if it is for competitive reasons, it seems that just creates a situation that then needs extra enforcement by admins
15:07<supermop>how is the neutral station better for competition?
15:07*Samu summons ST2
15:07<supermop>it doesn't allow one company to develop a better rating for cargo than the others
15:07<Samu>they're on equal footing then
15:07<Samu>sounds good imo
15:08<supermop>how are they on equal footing?
15:08<andythenorth>banning pickup from player-owned stations makes absolutely no sense to me
15:08<andythenorth>so I'll duck out :)
15:08<ST2>in a competitive game, players raising land to make stations/tracks blocks the access to industry to other players - we have disable join distant station parts
15:08<supermop>andythenorth: same
15:10<Samu>basically the reason of my patch is fundamentally because the industry has its own station and I wanted players to make use of them
15:11<Samu>but the behaviour can be turned on if you really wish the vanilla behaviour
15:11<Samu>it's a matter of preference
15:11<Samu>i wanted to discourage players from raising land on water and place their big fat train stations right next to oil rigs
15:12<Samu>it's ... ugly, but that's just my preference
15:12<supermop>Samu: then make the oil rigs spawn only far away from land, or better yet, make raising ocean land very expensive
15:13<ST2>that would be give exclusivity of those raises only to rich companies
15:13<ST2>not very fair ^^
15:14<supermop>how about the exclusivity to the player who can send a ton of boats to the oil rig that the small player has been trying to increase the rating at
15:14<ST2>Samu: if vanilla behaviour is the default one, I even like the idea of giving server owners that choice :)
15:15<ST2>boats don't jam and only one loads at once (I think per company) - so, I see no point
15:15<Samu>i don't find it fair when one player uses ships, then comes another raising land and building train right next to it
15:16<supermop>ST2: what about if the oil is on land
15:17<Samu>if the oil is on land, the patch has no effect
15:17<Samu>on or off, no effect
15:17<ST2>guess the discussion it's about oil rigs, or we'll go to any other industry
15:17<supermop>but that player is still 'blocking' the industry
15:17<ST2>or better, water-bourne industries
15:17<supermop>why do oil rigs get different rules on competition
15:18<ST2>because they spawn on different way that other industries, when mulple per town
15:19<ST2>more a reason to be treated differently
15:19<andythenorth>so are you patching move-cargo-to-station or something?
15:19<supermop>that argument has nothing to do with 'blocking' or competition
15:20<Samu>i'm patching uint MoveGoodsToStation(CargoID type, uint amount, SourceType source_type, SourceID source_id, const StationList *all_stations, bool on_water)
15:20<Samu>bool on_water is my invention :p
15:20<supermop>oil rigs are different because CS thought they would be cute and novel to add a new gimmick to the later game
15:20<andythenorth>you're not just checking for the station tile in the in the industry?
15:21<andythenorth>industry layout has a tile in it
15:21<andythenorth>can't remember the ID but it's special-cased
15:21<supermop>there is basically no compelling reason to send helicopters there other than customers of the game might find it fanciful to see helicopters flying around, and there was no other case in which they have a use
15:22<supermop>andythenorth: the patch seems to work
15:22<supermop>question is not how, but why
15:22<Samu>andythenorth: here's my patch you can see what it changes
15:23<ST2>example: the Fishing grounds - makes more sense to a boat go there that a train load it some tiles away
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15:25<supermop>samu was concerned about the wording of the strings for options to control patch behavior, and my contention was that there were too many options, and that you would need a clear picture of how the patch would be used to better inform what settings to provide
15:26*andythenorth back to Steeltown
15:26<supermop>ST2: if you content that the transport company must go do the fishing themselves, then shouldn't the transport company also send carts down into the mineshafts?
15:26<ST2>some months ago found a weird behaviour when IsOilRig(tile) returned true on bridge heads (endings)
15:26<andythenorth>I want another cluster like this, but late-game
15:26<andythenorth>so further up the Steel chain
15:26<supermop>maybe a dock next to the fishing grounds is where the local fishermen bring their catch ashore
15:26<andythenorth>vehicles does't deliver that
15:27<Samu>supermop seems to want more settings :)
15:27<supermop>and the contract with you to take it by reefer truck into the packing plant
15:27<supermop>Samu: nope
15:27<supermop>2 at most, preferably 1
15:28<Samu>do the behaviour "x", except for docks or helistations
15:28<Samu>so you're allowed to make dock station but not a train station :)
15:29<supermop>ST2: also we dont have mail trucks stop at every house in town, only enough central locations to cover the town
15:29<supermop>Samu: that would never work - what if my station has both dock and train?
15:30<supermop>what if the train is there but does not collect oil but some other cargo
15:30<ST2>personally I don't like the join distant station parts feature - but, gladly, there's a setting to enable/disable it ^^
15:30<Samu>then i would need to go further deep in the code and make trains unable to load it
15:30<Samu>why complicate :(
15:30<supermop>i think you only need on and off
15:31<Samu>ok, i can do that, 1 setting to rule them all
15:31<supermop>why should one be different than the others?
15:31<Samu>rip customization
15:32<andythenorth>3 kinds of steel :P
15:32*andythenorth looking for ideas
15:32<supermop>Samu: proliferation of options and settings just makes things more confusing
15:32<Cubey>How about one setting to control the behavior of water industries' built-in station and a second to control user built station near water industries
15:33<Samu>i see, will try to reduce from 4 to 2
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15:33<supermop>either leave patch turned off, and players enforce their own constraints on their play style, or turn patch on, and enforce exclusive use of the built-in station
15:34<Cubey>But what about controlling whether the built in station also draws cargo from nearby industries?
15:34<Samu>two oil rigs together
15:34<Samu>gotta test that
15:34<supermop>Cubey: if you care about 1, you likely care about the other
15:35<supermop>what i was prodding samu about, to explain his reason for the patch, was to see if there was actually any need at all for that nuance
15:35<andythenorth>what about transfers?
15:35<Cubey>Yeah like you said for the options to make sense, it's the use cases you need to think about
15:35<ST2>only myself would put 27 servers using it :P
15:36<supermop>if samu and ST2 say 'force use of the neutral station' and andy and i say 'allow player to build as they please'
15:36<ST2>I didn't say to force
15:36<ST2>for me, the default it's as it's now
15:37<supermop>does anyone say 'force use of the neutral staion for case x, but not for case y'?
15:37<ST2>but make it an option
15:37<supermop>if no one needs that middle 3rd way, samu only needs 1 setting, not 2 or 4
15:37<Cubey>I think the issue of neutral stations having a catchment area like normal stations is a separate question from whether the user is "forced" to use neutral stations or not
15:37<ST2>there I'm not inside the details ^^
15:37<supermop>saves a lot of string writing
15:38<Cubey>One or two options would both be better than four
15:38<supermop>Cubey: it is a separate issue, but is there a use case for it having a separate setting?
15:38<ST2>but yeah, I'll go with the KISS approach :D
15:38<Cubey>Let's say I've already decided to prevent normal stations from being able to catch oil rigs' oil, so I enable that setting in the patch
15:39<supermop>also yes, like andy said, there is the age old 'transfer hack'
15:39<Cubey>Now I still have to decide whether I want oil rigs' neutral stations to catch fish from nearby fisheries
15:39<Cubey>Personally I just wouldn't touch that option, I see no reason why you'd ever need to change it from the default behavior
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15:40<supermop>i think if you think it looks wrong for a dock on shore to get oil, you probably think it looks wrong for fishing boats to stop at an oil platform
15:40<Cubey>But it seems like Samu wanted this patch to also provide an option to change that behavior
15:40<supermop>Samu: what happens if i want to unload a bunch of iron ore at an oil rig, for another boat to pick up
15:41<Samu>do you mean with cargodist enabled?
15:41<supermop>no, without
15:41<Samu>you can unload there, it stays in the station
15:41<Cubey>That seems to have nothing to do with this patch, which only controls what cargos are supplied and accepted by which stations
15:41<Samu>some other player however, can go pick it up
15:42<Samu>it's shared :8
15:43<supermop>it might be better to remove the dock from oil rigs entirely
15:43<supermop>and let players build their own moorings
15:43<supermop>ie patch in a dock that is built at sea, like abouy
15:44<supermop>that way player has their own control over station rating
15:44<supermop>but would not block others
15:45<Samu>"claim this industry for me"
15:45<Samu>"oh, but not really just for me"
15:49<Samu>first come first served - first company sending a vehicle arriving at a neutral station will claim the station as theirs
15:50<Samu>sounds like a neat idea, for another patch
15:50<Samu>a bit drastic, though
15:51<Samu>but... seems possible to do
16:00<Samu>looks like i found a possible bug
16:00<Samu>2 oil rigs with the setting disabled, with a ship loading at one of them, will trigger production on both oil rigs
16:00<Samu>let's see if i can split it appart
16:01<ST2>known, because it has a station so, coverage too
16:01<ST2>not no idea if intended ^^
16:02<Samu>my idea was to only make the ship trigger production on the industry it's on
16:02<Samu>kinda like i did for acceptance
16:03<Samu>if I did for acceptance, i should also do it for production
16:07<Samu>MoveGoodsToStation needs moar editing
16:08<Samu>i need to pass around the IndustryIndex to MoveGoodsToStation
16:08<Samu>hmm wondering how am i doing tat
16:11<Samu>or maybe FindStationsAroundTiles
16:11<Samu>make it not find certain station
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16:40<andythenorth>what could go in an electrical chain?
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16:45<andythenorth>want something like this
16:45<andythenorth>that then combines with steel
16:46*andythenorth has been persuaded against chemicals chain :P
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16:50<zerm>Is there a way to get apt-get repositories to automatically update to 1.7.1? I'm new to linux (currently using lubuntu LTS 16.10), not sure if using sudo apt-get remove openttd* was sufficent to uninstall 1.5.3... my goal is to completely erase the game and all components and reinstall to latest version. Also, if I have to use binary, do I have to move the binary to where I want to install it before running commands?
16:51<zerm>I know it's a rediculous question. Using as guide and have googled other stuff. Wondering if there's a updated repository I can point to.
16:52<andythenorth>chemicals chain would give pvc, combined with copper for wire, then steel for machines
16:54<Wolf01>Silicon, a lot of silicon
16:54<Wolf01>Also rare earths
16:55<Wolf01>And now, /me -> bed, tomorrow I need to get up early to sign the job contract
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16:56<andythenorth>job contract :o
16:56<andythenorth>wolf01 has left the building :)
16:57<andythenorth>frosch123: PVC isn't yogurt pots, right? o_O
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16:59<zerm>i got it, thanks guys!!!
17:02<frosch123>andythenorth: or bakelite?
17:03<andythenorth>bakelite is resins?
17:03<frosch123>it's the first plastic from syntetics
17:04<andythenorth>I want to try two big complex chains
17:04<andythenorth>there's enough room in cargos
17:05<andythenorth>I don't think FIRS justifies another heavy industry economy, so it has to be this one :)
17:05<andythenorth>chain 1, chain 2 -> goods, vehicles, maybe BDMT
17:05<andythenorth>maybe packaging
17:06<andythenorth>ports are fed by side products from the long chains
17:06<andythenorth>ensp is a problem, it's a terrible pinnacle cargo
17:08<andythenorth>need a primary that produces ensp :P
17:13<supermop>buldozer farm
17:14<supermop>lately i don't even use ensp
17:14<supermop>= too much cargo to use
17:19<andythenorth>interesting point
17:20<andythenorth>ensp can be a helpful design constraint, but it's also a total pain in the arse :)
17:20<andythenorth>plastic tankers
17:25<andythenorth>supermop: does this fit steeltown aesthetic, or no?
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17:41<supermop>andythenorth: largely
17:41<supermop>has enough rust color
17:41<supermop>smoke stacks look a bit modern
17:42<supermop>force CC to dark grey before 1940?
17:42<andythenorth>maybe :P
17:42<supermop>distillation columns look good bolt-y
17:43<andythenorth>coke oven -> coal tar -> medicine -> port/town?
17:43<andythenorth>coal tar is on the World Health Organisation's list of essential medicines :P
17:43<supermop>haha will you enforce acetaminophen/paracetamol/whatever aussies call it by region?
17:44<andythenorth>got en-us and en-au :P
17:45<supermop>i remeber it being different that uk or us
17:49<andythenorth>brand names
17:49<supermop>huh. i could have sworn acetaminophen came from coal tar, but wikipedia doesn't mention it
17:49*andythenorth took paracetamol and acetaminophen together for a period of time
17:49<supermop>maybe was thinking of aspirin or something
17:49<andythenorth>it's on the coal tar page
17:50*andythenorth just closed it
17:50<supermop>paracetamol has nothing about the industrial synthesis
17:51<supermop>even the historical note is not very informative
17:53<supermop>creosote+wood = ensp + bdmt
17:54<supermop>i guess that is just like the lumber yard tho
17:55<supermop>coal tar distillery - > medicine, shampoo, parking lot sealant, railroad ties
17:55<andythenorth>that is the lumber yard :)
17:55<andythenorth>it has a creosote kiln
17:57<supermop>i had always assumed the 'chemicals' were either glue for plywood, or the green stuff they permeate 4x4s with to make deck posts
17:57<andythenorth>could be any of those
17:57<supermop>althought that green stuff is essentially creosote by use
17:57<andythenorth>chemicals industry boggles my brain
17:57<andythenorth>so many processes
17:57<supermop>the stuff that comes from the lumber yard is not brown though - its blond like plywood
17:58<andythenorth>this is true
17:58<supermop>so is the suff that gets delivered there though
17:58<andythenorth>doesn't do much eh
17:58*andythenorth must sleep
17:58<andythenorth>ultimate Steeltown must wait...again
17:58<supermop>blond wood + chemicals = blond wood
17:58<andythenorth>*superior* blond wood
17:59<supermop>the chemicals are the brand labels they attach
17:59<andythenorth>discussion of material honesty will have to wait for another day
17:59<supermop>later dude
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19:27<Samu>I did it
19:27<Samu>ship is loading oil from only one oil rig, it doesn't trigger production of the other oil rig
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19:28<Samu>ST2: supermop :)
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19:33<Samu>this one is tricky, because it is both the "oil rig" station and the "other station" at the same time
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19:35<Samu>it's both settings 3 and 4
19:36<Samu>i need to cut this to 2 settings
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21:07<newgrfquestion>hi. is there someone here that knows about newgrf parameters for a dedicated openttd server?
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21:30<newgrfquestion>is there a wiki or any other website that can help one set up newgrf parameters without a gui?
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21:36<Eddi|zuHause>the easiest way is to set it up with a gui, and then copy either the savegame or the config section over to the headless server
21:39<newgrfquestion>yeah thats the problem,
21:39<newgrfquestion>the server is on a vm and he doesnt have access to a gui. he says it has to be all cmd line
21:39<newgrfquestion>so is there an rcon command to change the parameters?
21:39<newgrfquestion>he changed the openttd.cfg file but that apparently doesnt list the newgrf parameters
21:41<Eddi|zuHause>it does, but only if they differ from the default, i guess
21:42<newgrfquestion>so how would would change the parameters for FIRS?
21:43<newgrfquestion>is it possible just thru the openttd.cfg? i didnt see a listed for parameters there
21:43<newgrfquestion>only a basic list of newgrfs currently running
21:44<Eddi|zuHause>i don't have a [newgrf] section, but in the [preset-<whatever>] sections it's something like this: "nutracks-1.1.1/nutracks.grf = 0 2 0 0 80 125 180 230"
21:45<Eddi|zuHause>the [newgrf] section also includes the md5 sum of the grf, i think
21:46<newgrfquestion>have you used FIRS before?
21:46<newgrfquestion>i just need to figure out which number changes the economy
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21:51<newgrfquestion>Eddi|zuHause: thanks! also, do you know of an alternative to the openttd wiki that lists more information too?
21:52<Eddi|zuHause>which parameter does what you need to check in the specific newgrf documentation
21:54<newgrfquestion>well from the string of numbers, is it the first one that determines the economy in FIRS?
22:01<Eddi|zuHause>order should be the same as in the parameter gui
22:16<newgrfquestion>i see
22:25<Cubey>The openttdcoop wiki has a lot of information but some of it is specific to their server
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22:32<newgrfquestion>do you know of a more generalized wiki for openttd besides the default one?
22:32<newgrfquestion>the old openttd wiki has too many holes in it
22:33<newgrfquestion>this is the old one:
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