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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-12-29

---Logopened Fri Dec 29 00:00:26 2017
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00:09<PressureLine><3 drinking on a weekday
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05:19<Borg>any GS gurus around?
05:19<Borg>I need to understand how I can check for specific industry.. in IndustryList
05:19<Borg>is it possible at all?
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05:55<Borg>I cant wrap myself in that GS....
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06:37*Borg cries
06:38<Borg>luicky... standard lame debugging options.. works in GS too
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07:35<m3henry>G'day Alberth
07:35<@Alberth>hi hi
07:35<andythenorth>hi Alberth
07:35<@Alberth>hi andy
07:38<m3henry>I've been looking at SmallVector<T, S> some more and I've noticed some potential issues
07:40<m3henry>The destructor requires that the contained type is trivially destructible to be safely called at any time, however there are uses of Smallvector which contain non-trivially destructible types
07:41<m3henry>ErasePreservingOrder(uint, uint) requires that the contained type is trivially movable (which is fortunately the case for all uses of that method)
07:43<@Alberth>never seen that function :)
07:44<m3henry>Putting a static_assertion on the container for std::is_trivially_destructible<T>::value would be one option, but breaks some uses, alternatively, ensuring the destructor for all remaining elements would prevent a potential resource leak
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07:45<m3henry>Alternatively there is std::vector
07:46<m3henry>Not entirely sure what be the best option
07:49<@Alberth>don't know about is_trivially_destructible at all
07:52<m3henry>is_trivially_destructible means that the underlying memory can be deallocated without calling the destructor
07:52<m3henry>for the particular type T
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07:53<LordAro>Alberth: brace yourself, you're entering the world of template metaprogramming :)
07:53<@Alberth>I would say that switching to standard constructs is more useful than trying to make custom constructs safer
07:54<@Rubidium>except that I remember getting away from such a construct because it slowed some highly used function (in drawing IIRC) down by a few factors
07:54<@Rubidium>just because it kept copying memory around like crazy
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07:56<@Alberth>you got the comment by Rubidium ?
07:57<m3henry>Incase my previous message didn't arrive:
07:57<@Alberth>(13:54:35) Rubidium: except that I remember getting away from such a construct because it slowed some highly used function (in drawing IIRC) down by a few factors
07:57<@Alberth>(13:54:58) Rubidium: just because it kept copying memory around like crazy
08:00<m3henry>Ah yes, ErasePreservingOrder is never used anywhere in the project
08:01<m3henry>oh no, it is, in the last compiled file
08:02<m3henry>But RefitOptions are trivially move assignable, so there's no issue with its use there
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08:05<m3henry>The rationale stated in the file description for SmallVector seems a little odd "Simple vector class that allows allocating an item without the need to copy this->data needlessly."
08:07<m3henry>Is that referring to The allocation policy S being set large enough so that reallocations are unlikely
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08:15<@Alberth>you are aware that the project runs since 2004, and lots of people have contributed code, and left again, right?
08:16<m3henry>I'm just willing to put in a few hundred hours to make it easier for future developers to modify the project
08:16<@Alberth>ie, no idea, I studied the SmallVector interface two times or so, and that's it
08:16<@Alberth>you already know way more than I do
08:17<andythenorth>definitely more than I do :)
08:17<@Alberth>but you may want to start with the more harmless uses
08:18<@Rubidium>m3henry: IIRC it was that you first allocate the memory on stack and then copy that to the vector, instead of just getting a pointer from the stack with the memory address to write the data to
08:19<@Rubidium>but to be brutally honest, it's all vague and fuzzy as it's quite a while ago for me
08:21<m3henry>But yeah, I'd rather not start proposing large changes to the project without first talking about it to gain an idea of what solutions would be most acceptable
08:23<@Rubidium>it might also be that the code that used that is gone by now, but I have no clue
08:23<m3henry>It's heavily used it would seem
08:28<Borg>m3henry: thats kinda strange what u say
08:29<Borg>m3henry: delete value <- this is not trival dealloc... destructor will be called if necessary
08:30<Borg>but.. I might be wrong ;) I got rusty in C++
08:31<m3henry>Ah, the implementation of SmallVector<T,S> uses malloc()/free() rather than new/delete
08:31<Borg>w00t? :)
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08:32<Borg>nice abomination mix I see here ;) mixing malloc() vs new is bad
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08:32<@Alberth>c++ also has malloc :p
08:33<Borg>of course it has.. but as I said.. mixing those 2 is bad idea
08:33<@Alberth>but it's a 300K program converted from C to modern C to C++ in a deade
08:33<m3henry>free doesn't do any destruction of objects deallocated by a call to it, it just makes the memory available to the heap
08:33<Borg>Alberth: ahh :) didnt know it...
08:33<Borg>m3henry: I know
08:33<Borg>Alberth: well.. git grep -F malloc
08:33<Borg>is your friend :D
08:34<m3henry>delete and delete[] destroy the object[s] and then make the memory available to the heap
08:34<@Alberth>I know it uses malloc, and I don't see the problem, as long as you use it consistently
08:34<@Alberth>and are aware of the differences, of course
08:35<m3henry>I was clarifying for Borg
08:35<Borg>m3henry: thank you :) but no need to.. I know the basics
08:35<@Alberth>I agree you wouldn't write it in mixed new and malloc if you write a new program, but 300K lines isn't easily converted
08:35<Borg>Alberth: indeed
08:36<@Alberth>and there is code in there that hasn't been touched in ages
08:36<Borg>anyway! OpenTTD time.. time to play w/ my very first simple GS!
08:37<m3henry>And with smart pointers and containers, using new is rarely warrented
08:42<m3henry>I suppose what I'm really asking is, should I invest time in tightening up SmallVector, or moving instances to use std::vector?
08:42<LordAro>Alberth: from machine code to C, as well
08:43<@Alberth>making new obsolete is relatively recent
08:43<@Alberth>LordAro: fair enough :)
08:43<@Alberth>I'd start with the non-time critical cases
08:43<LordAro>Alberth: bits of openrct2 looked far too familiar to refute ottd's origins anymore
08:44<@Alberth>afaik the decoders used openttd as source of inspiration
08:44<m3henry>That sounds like move to std::vector then
08:44<@Alberth>so it would be logical to see bits of openttd in it
08:44<LordAro>m3henry: the latter, imo
08:45<@Alberth>m3henry: for the non-time critical cases, I see no objection to a move to std::vector, do you?
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08:46<@Alberth>no idea how many would remain then
08:46<m3henry>Between std::vector and std::array, custom contiguous containers seem moot
08:47<m3henry>I have no idea how many tens of thousands of hours have gone into ensuring they are optimized and as tight as possible
08:54<LordAro>technically, it depends on your usecase
08:54<LordAro>but i'd imagine ottd covers none of those :)
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09:48<Borg>guys, is that me.. or I cannot find rag_signals_density in config options in GUI anymore?
09:48<Borg>drag_signals_density I mean
09:49<Eddi|zuHause>in the signal gui, probably?
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09:51<Borg>ohh indeed
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10:45<Borg>why this doesnt work in GS:
10:45<Borg>local tab;
10:48<Borg>ahh found it..
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10:50<Borg>its tab.xx <- 1;
10:50<Borg>ugggly syntax ;)
10:51<Borg>or not...
10:51<Borg>holy fuck..
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10:56<Borg>okey, works
10:58<@Alberth>difference between entry creation and assignment of existing entry
10:58<@Alberth>and yeah, it's ugly :)
11:00<Borg>loooks good.. GRF works.. GS works :)
11:00<andythenorth>FIRS 3 was 900 commits so far
11:00<Borg>no... need to find players ;)
11:00<andythenorth>whatever that means
11:10<andythenorth>should I release FIRS 3?
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11:29<andythenorth>so is that tacit consent?
11:30<andythenorth>or tacit refusal? :P
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11:46<Borg>who here said.. that stockpiling is.. bad... ?
11:48<andythenorth>I have...opinions :P
11:49<Borg>of course :)
11:49<Borg>I kinda like it..
11:49<Borg>kinda? nah.. I love it ;]
11:49<Borg>makes production smoother..
11:49<Borg>Of course it depends on GRF I guess
11:49<Borg>Ive done my own stuff here.. and Prod Industries adjust production smoothly.. based on transported ratio + stockpiles
11:50<Borg>so no cry when u start chain from source.. ;) not much is gonna be wasted
11:50<supermop>andy prefers the stockpile a few tiles away to give an excuse for various vehicles to carry the stuff around the industry?
11:51<andythenorth>is it stockpiling + rejection?
11:51<andythenorth>(acceptance limits)
11:51<andythenorth>or just a fixed processing rate?
11:51<Borg>stockpiling + rejection.. and processing rate is not fixed
11:51<Borg>it adjust itself
11:51<andythenorth>yeah I dislike stuff that messes up the network :D
11:51<andythenorth>and make GS goals impossible
11:52<@Alberth>make 3.0.0 before next year!
11:52<Borg>I wonder how it can interferre with GS goals..
11:52<andythenorth>I did try cargo rejection in FIRS, but it was quickly removed :)
11:53<Borg>andythenorth: why? :) complains?
11:53<Borg>also.. I use temporary cargo reject...
11:53<@Alberth>"give factory X lots of cargo in little time"
11:53<Borg>so.. its dumped.. but no payment ;D
11:53<Borg>so.. its funny to see how overloaded factory gives u no profit or even costs! if you have transfers
11:53<@Alberth>"make X money by bringing cargo to Y factory in little time"
11:54<Borg>Alberth: ahh :)
11:54<andythenorth>so it doesn't stop accepting at station?
11:54<Borg>andythenorth: nope.
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11:54<andythenorth>stopping acceptance messes with cdist
11:54<andythenorth>and AIs
11:55<Borg>yeah.. also would be annoying to me.. to get info that cargo is not accepted w/o serious reason
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11:55<@Alberth>I'd just introduce a delay in giving output, process "current waiting input / 10" and give that as output
11:55<@Alberth>means you get what you provide, but not instantly
11:56<Borg>Alberth: nah.. cargo drop is instant
11:56<Borg>cargo output is not... so it should not mess w/ simple target
11:56<@Alberth>cargo drop is, cargo output is not
11:56<Borg>yep.. so if you have cargo output GS.. then yes
11:56<Borg>it can mess with it
11:56<andythenorth>it's not a problem
11:56<andythenorth>my prejudices aren't golden rules :P
11:57<@Alberth>it can't, GS has no influence on output of industries
11:57<@Alberth>we fork andy, and change him :)
11:57<@Alberth>hmm, perhaps better fork firs 3 :p
12:05<m3henry_>If I wish to submit a fix which closes an issue, should I request closure of the issue after adding the patch in a comment?
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12:10<@Alberth>just mention that it fixes the issue
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12:44<Borg>I reduced distance between signals to 6 tiles...
12:44<Borg>looks and plays better.. but I feel... bad.
12:47<@Alberth>openttd is not a simulation of reality :)
12:47<Borg>I know.. but still ;)
12:47<m3henry_>Fair enough, I was just wondering if I'd missed something when fixing FS#6642
12:47<Borg>but anything below that.. is profanation. imo..
12:49<@Alberth>slightly longer than the train length seems best to me, but others disagree :)
12:49<Borg>well.. in my case its not an option ;D as I can have 14 tiles long trains here and there
12:49<Borg>I used 8 tiles distance
12:50<Borg>but on curves. calcs were annoying
12:50<Borg>w/6 are much better to perfome.. counting to 5.. and next semaphore
12:51<LordAro>@fs 6642
12:52<LordAro>m3henry_: looks fine, you just have to get someone to notice now
12:55<m3henry_>If it gets left along for a week I'll prod <insert name to prod>
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13:01<LordAro>m3henry_: why wait? Alberth is right here? :p
13:01<@Alberth>he is?
13:04<m3henry_>*Falls off chair*
13:06*m3henry_ checks if this is the cmd for this
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14:25*Wolf01 is counting lego parts from the last order
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14:41<@Alberth>1, 2, 3, many
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15:48<Wolf01>Yes, many
15:48<Wolf01>Just finished counting
15:49<Wolf01>I miss 1 really common part (a technic pin, 39 instead of 40, I needed 27 of them) but I have 1 more of the new quarter round tiles :P
15:51<+glx>what else ? ;)
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16:42<Wolf01>It seem I started a constructive discussion for NRT in the forum
16:43<Samu>bah, my poe character died
16:43<Samu>time to play openttd
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17:06<Guest722>question: I'm playing UK v3 scenario with Japanse v3.3 trainset but I don't have multi-carriages for the Shenkansen
17:06<Guest722>how can I fix this?
17:07<Guest722>I tried the trainset add-on but that had version 3.1 orso and gives a conflict
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17:27<pietje>has anyone played the UK v3.04a4 scenario? Which trainset works the best?
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18:16<Eddi|zuHause>pietje: the japanese trainset probably needs an accompanying trackset to work fully
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---Logclosed Sat Dec 30 00:00:27 2017