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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-02-03

---Logopened Sat Feb 03 00:00:51 2018
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04:32<stefino>hi, one engine tick is 27ms? thx
04:47<@planetmaker>moin. 0.030s
04:49<stefino>thanks :)
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05:02<Wolf01>andythenorth: I'm trying to fix the proble to convert town roads to ELRDs... that thing bothers me
05:03<andythenorth>I pushed the CC fix
05:03<andythenorth>I brb
05:07<Wolf01>supermop_work: ping
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05:08<Wolf01>I'm trying to understand why asphalt road + catenary isn't compatible with asphalt road
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05:18<andythenorth>in game or SE?
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05:19<Wolf01>Game, but it seem that asphalt misses the "has power on asphalt+catenary"
05:20<Wolf01>As stone is compatible, so there isn't a problem in the code
05:21<Wolf01>Yes, I can't even run vehicles on asphalt
05:24<Wolf01>Mmhhh no, they can, it's just the asphalt+catenary which is not compatible with other roads, it doesn't even connect
05:26<Wolf01>Ok, the code already works, the grf needs some fix
05:27<Wolf01>Ok, next?
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05:28<Wolf01>As I said previously, my code doesn't have bugs XD
05:30<Wolf01>Now I need frosch
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05:35<stefino>can someone explain to me how to write part of code for sound events? It is in callbacks paragraph but it doesn't work in my nml
05:36<andythenorth>Wolf01: have we got a burn-down list of what's left to do?
05:36<Wolf01>andythenorth: could you play test the can-build-vehicles-infrastructure branch to be sure everything works fine? It should disable not available roadtypes and fixes the editor too
05:37<Wolf01>Ok, I'll make some issues to keep track of the work
05:37<andythenorth>ok playtesting
05:38<andythenorth>if there's only small things, put them all in one issue
05:41<andythenorth>Wolf01: how did you test the can-build... branch?
05:41<andythenorth>I guess I need a grf with roads but no vehicles for it
05:41<Wolf01>Yes, or just check if the roadtype is available before the introduction date (it shouldn't)
05:42<Wolf01>Also a roadtype must be available if expired but you still have vehicles
05:43<andythenorth>works for me
05:43<andythenorth>lacking enough types to test with
05:43<andythenorth>not comprehensive :P
05:43<Wolf01>SE trams work?
05:43<andythenorth>that's one to ship and await player reports
05:43<andythenorth>SE trams work for everything I could think of
05:44<Wolf01>Should we merge it?
05:44<andythenorth>merge all branches, get nightlies tested
05:45<Wolf01>We could merge no-houses, can-build
05:45<Wolf01>Maybe no-junctions too
05:45<Wolf01>I have it ready
05:45<andythenorth>no-junctions is hard to take away if there are problems :P
05:45<andythenorth>is it tested?
05:46<Wolf01>No, it needs more testing, but for the basic feature it just does its job
05:47<Wolf01>It's a bit difficult to use as you need to remove roadbits to change direction, but nothing can help here
05:53<stefino>problem solved...
05:54<andythenorth>ok so we need an nml patch for no-houses
05:55<andythenorth>there's also the frosch spec
05:56<Wolf01>Yes, I linked that, I took the entries from the TODO
05:59<Wolf01>Merged no-houses
05:59<andythenorth>not sure about names yet
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06:06<frosch123>we need gps vehicle tracking for openttd
06:07<Wolf01>We need to merge branch stuff into NRT, I've just merged no-houses, next is the can-build-veh-infra
06:12<Wolf01>Do you have any suggestion for
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06:33<andythenorth>"Non-constructible rail-/road-/tramtypes to model vehicle compatibility/poweredness"
06:33<andythenorth>do we need that before a trunk merge?
06:33<Wolf01>Maybe not
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06:38<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i'd say no, but it might be something to add to road and railtypes later
06:38<Samu>i figured how to make tortoisehg patches to work with tortoisesvn
06:39<Samu>got to edit in a text editor and remove 'a/' and 'b/' from every file that is changed
06:40<Samu>notepad++ is handy
06:42<LordAro>still say you don't need to switch back to tortoisesvn
06:44<Wolf01>Mmmh, my tortoisesvn applied git patches to svn without problems, which version do you use?
06:45<Samu>they were hg patches
06:45<Samu>never seen a git patch in my life yet, or maybe I did but didn't realise it
06:45<Wolf01>It shouldn't be a problem, git patches have a/ b/ too
06:46<Samu>TortoiseSVN 1.9.7, Build 27907 - 64 Bit , 2017/08/08 19:34:38 Subversion 1.9.7, -release apr 1.5.2 apr-util 1.5.4 serf 1.3.9 OpenSSL 1.0.2l 25 May 2017 zlib 1.2.8 SQLite 3.14.1
06:46<Wolf01>Lol, I have 1.9.4
06:48<Samu>ok, test this patch
06:48<Wolf01>I had the other problem: when creating a patch I had to remember to create it as a git patch or only svn users were able to apply it
06:48<Samu>from HackALittleBit
06:49<Samu>for me, it creates a 'b' folder :(
06:51<Wolf01>Ok, it does that for me too
06:54<Wolf01>From command line it works with --strip
06:54<Wolf01>E:\progetti\OpenTTD\trunk> svn patch --strip 1 ..\svn_27967_ship_collision_v7.patch
06:55<Samu>there is a command line huh
06:56<LordAro>we explained this to you quite some time ago
06:56<Wolf01>Lunch time
06:57<Samu>for hg, not for svn :(
06:59<Samu>there is no svn.exe on my system :(
07:00<LordAro>that seems unlikely
07:01<stefino>did anyone sounds for vehicles? for start, running and stop vehicle?
07:01<LordAro>Samu: stop
07:01<Samu>all exes
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>some old pikka sets had running sounds
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>they were removed in later versions
07:03<stefino>mmm, I'm trying to find right length of sound track
07:05<Samu>so git patches is compatible with hg patchers?
07:05<@planetmaker>of course
07:05<@planetmaker>patch is independent of VCS basically
07:06<Samu>link me to a git patch plz
07:06<stefino>wiki says that sound will be generate every 16 ticks - in case of 30ms it is 0,48s per one track. But in game it sounds like that ticks are not in periodic
07:08<Eddi|zuHause>i can't really help you with that as i've never looked into sounds
07:09<stefino>:) np
07:09<Wolf01>Samu: if you open a command line and type "svn help" what does it say?
07:10<Samu>'svn' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.
07:10<Wolf01>Ok so you didn't install the tools when the installer let you choose that
07:11<Samu>oh, so those were it?
07:11<Samu>reinstalling, brb
07:13<Samu>command line client tools?
07:13<Samu>i usually do next next next
07:13<Wolf01>You usually don't read
07:14<Samu>usage: svn <subcommand> [options] [args]
07:14<Samu>yeah, i see it now
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07:16<Samu>ack, pathnames in command line programs are so daunting
07:16<Wolf01>You have the TAB key on the keyboard, learn how to use it
07:17<Wolf01>And everything you need to know is that ../ means "the parent folder" and ./ means "the current folder"
07:18<Wolf01>Everything else runs on the folder you are on (unless you start with / which is the root)
07:19<Samu>svn patch --strip 1 "C:\Users\Ricardo\Downloads\svn_27967 settings.patch" D:\OpenTTD\trunk
07:20<Samu>and i'm lucky svn runs directly from anywhere
07:20<Samu>it's usually not the case
07:20<peter1138>You know what PATH is, right?
07:21<Wolf01>With a bit of knowledge you can also make the calculator run from everywhere
07:22<peter1138>Hmm, earl grey or plain tea?
07:22<Samu>oh, so the program ruined my path variable? :(
07:22<Wolf01>Earl grey thank you
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07:22<Samu>feels like going back to DOS era
07:22<peter1138>s/ruined/just added something to/
07:22<peter1138>Good call Wolf01
07:23<peter1138>Hmm, wonder if I have any decent missions on E:D at the moment
07:23<peter1138>Boom time delivery of 4 units of tea
07:23<Samu>i wonder what will happen if i uninstall it
07:23<Samu>is path reverted back?
07:24<Samu>or was that ruined forever?
07:25<Samu>C:\WINDOWS\system32;C:\WINDOWS;C:\WINDOWS\System32\Wbem;C:\WINDOWS\System32\WindowsPowerShell\v1.0\;C:\Program Files (x86)\AMD\ATI.ACE\Core-Static;C:\Program Files (x86)\ATI Technologies\ATI.ACE\Core-Static;C:\Program Files\Microsoft SQL Server\120\Tools\Binn\;C:\Program Files\Microsoft SQL Server\130\Tools\Binn\;C:\Program Files (x86)\Windows Kits\10\Windows Performance Toolkit\;C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft SQL Server\110\DTS\Binn\;C:\Pr
07:25<Samu>damn my path looks ugly as hell
07:25<Wolf01>Mmh, I lost my first game on Stellaris, I don't know if I want to retry or loose myself on factorio for the entire weekend
07:26<Wolf01>Samu, it's a fucking path variable, not a desktop wallpaper, you don't need to stare at it every second
07:26<Samu>C:\Program Files\TortoiseSVN\bin
07:26<Samu>there it is
07:26<__ln__>Wolf01: *lose
07:27<Samu>in the dos era, i tried to keep this as clean as possible
07:27<Wolf01>I always have problems with 'oo's
07:27<Samu>feels like going back in time
07:28<Wolf01>CLI is the future
07:29<Samu>well thx for the help
07:29<Samu>i still think i prefer to edit a/ and b/ out with notepad++
07:30<Samu>full pathnames are a headache
07:31<LordAro>you need to get into your head that development involves the commandline
07:32<LordAro>and actually use it
07:35<Samu>gonna google online patch converter
07:36<Samu>meh, i was looking for a web browser tool
07:37<Samu>i would submit the hg patch, the web does its magic, and gives me back a svn patch to download
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07:38<LordAro>i reiterate, why do you want to convert between them
07:39<Samu>to be able to right click > TortoiseSVN > Apply Patch...
07:40<LordAro>why use svn at all
07:40<Samu>because it's smarter, well integrated with windows explorer
07:41<LordAro>don't bullshit me
07:41<Samu>right click a folder or a patch file in the explorer, and tortoisesvn is all there, create patch, revert, update to, etc...
07:42<LordAro>1) svn is not smart, hg/git are smarter
07:43<LordAro>2) all tortoises have explorer context menus
07:43<Samu>eh, tortoisehg didn't have that, not even close :(
07:43<LordAro> the documentation disagrees with you
07:44<Wolf01>The problem is not SVN itselv, which I still consider a valid thing, but the UI tools aren't always as good as we want
07:44<Samu>it doesn't let me create patch or apply patch from there
07:45<Wolf01>Samu, go in config and enable the menu items
07:45<Samu>meh, it's not installed :(
07:45<Samu>i don't feel like installing it again
07:46<Samu>also, it creates weird openttd versions with visual studio
07:46<Samu>svn is more clear about it
07:47<Samu>if it's r27967, then it's r27967M, not gf89dgfsd9gh3 or whatever
07:48<Wolf01>Use git so you can see the branch name on the title
07:50<Wolf01>The main problem about SVN is that sequential number which mislead you on everything, it's like the autoincrement primary key on SQL databases
07:50<Wolf01>Use GUIDs everywhere and you solve everything
07:51<andythenorth>they're just changeset hashes
07:51<andythenorth>not incremental version numbers
07:51<Wolf01>r27967 is incremental
07:52<Wolf01>You can easy tell if one version is older than another
07:53<LordAro>that is the one advantage to svn
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>you buy the advantage with a heap of inflexibility
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>that's why SVN is only used for the main repo, anyone who seriously works on developing patches uses hg or git
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08:05<peter1138>s/hg or //
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08:33<Samu>woah, git patches are even worse
08:33<Samu>unless i failed to identify a git patch
08:33<Samu>can someone link me to a real git patch?
08:37<LordAro>hg patches are basically the same as hg patches
08:37<LordAro>what did you find?
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08:40<Samu>instead of a/ or b/
08:40<Samu>i need to remove a/trunk/ and b/trunk/
08:40<Samu>and also remove the diff --git something something
08:40<Wolf01>--strip 2
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08:45<LordAro>Samu: ok, so it was just created from another directory
08:46<LordAro>as Wolf01 says, this is quite easy to solve
08:46<LordAro>and i'm pretty sure even svn can cope with diff --git
08:46<LordAro>hell, it can generate them
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09:08<Samu>diff --git a/trunk/src/lang/english.txt b/trunk/src/lang/english.txt --- a/trunk/src/lang/english.txt (revision 27967) +++ b/trunk/src/lang/english.txt (working copy)
09:08<Samu>seems to me that tortoisesvn can't make a decent git patch
09:09<Samu>it can't apply what it created
09:09<Samu>can't apply patch*
09:10<Samu>Wolf01: show me one of your git patches, plz
09:10<Wolf01>I use github directly now, no patches
09:14<frosch123>stefino: what is there to ask about vehicle sounds?
09:14<stefino>frosch123: this
09:14<supermop>is a curtain-sided boxcar a thing?
09:16<frosch123>stefino: you cannot create a continuous running sound
09:16<frosch123>the timing when executing newgrf is not precise enough
09:16<stefino>so in this case are these events quite useless or not? :D
09:16<andythenorth>supermop: not really, but it's a game
09:17<andythenorth>so eh
09:17<andythenorth>they do exist
09:17<supermop>looks better for modern industrial trams
09:17<supermop>so i'm drawing
09:19<supermop>though nowmeans have to draw the cargo inside
09:21<frosch123>stefino: the currently available stuff is probably good enough for starting steam engines, which have some silence between iterations, but it does not work for combustion engines
09:22<frosch123>andythenorth: do you know a more recent essay similar to "the cathedral and the bazzar"?
09:22<stefino>frosch123: yes I'm trying it on car atm.
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09:23<andythenorth>no on similar subjects no
09:24<frosch123>ok, at least my guess was correct that you know the essay :p
09:25<andythenorth>also the guy who invented Lisp has a lot of stuff on architecture, and why 'worse is better' beat Lisp
09:25<supermop>hmm stack deck, then cargo, then whole upper structure, or deck+ends+roof, then cargo, then curtains
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>i've heard of "the cathedral and the bazaar" but i have no clue what it's about
09:25<andythenorth>it's about 'good enough'
09:25<andythenorth>and why letting things grow as a mess still gets results
09:26<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: there is a 30 page essay on the internet
09:26<Eddi|zuHause>that's how evolution works... it grows as a mess, and the more successfull messes stick around longer
09:26<frosch123>and some book with 240 pages, which i am currenly wondering about how it relates
09:26<supermop>stacking whole upper part of boxcar on top means can reuse flatbed cargo sprites
09:27<frosch123>ah, the book is a collection of stories
09:27<frosch123>and the catb is only one of them
09:43<supermop>i wonder if random 1cc +2cc accent vs 2cc +1cc accent is bad design
09:44<supermop>as players are likely to choose 2cc to be a bolder accent color in general
09:44<supermop>so getting an all bright boxcar with drab stripes would look dumb
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10:38<andythenorth>hi Snail
10:38<Snail>hi andytthenorth
10:43<andythenorth>Wolf01: allowing towns to choose roads?
10:43<andythenorth>that would need a heuristic
10:43<andythenorth>or GS or newgrf
10:43<andythenorth>one option would be a newgrf cb
10:43<andythenorth>for 'town is building a road tile'
10:44<andythenorth>but I dunno
10:44<andythenorth>if there are multiple NRT grfs, who handles the cb?
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11:22<supermop>andythenorth: some value per road type that indicates town attractiveness
11:22<supermop>the available roadtype with highest value is chosen?
11:22<supermop>if tie, the type defined earlier wins
11:23<supermop>spent the last hour drawing cardboard boxes to go into curtain siders
11:23<andythenorth>'probability of being built by town' :P
11:24<andythenorth>towns choose a random roadtype
11:24<supermop>with nice variation in the stacks between 'tan' and 'slightly darker tan'
11:34<Samu> no details :(
11:35<Samu>but uhm... i think i managed to crash openttd with nocab once
11:35<Samu>start a 4096x4096 map with 12k towns and 20k industries
11:35<Samu>start the ai... wait a while, and suddenly... crash
11:36<Samu>nonocab limits towns to 1000 and industries to 2000, so ... maybe his crash is different
11:37<supermop>i wish ps would let me have two different things in clipboard
11:37<Samu>i think the crashes are more prominent on 32-bit of openttd... probably mem allocation issues? out of memory?
11:37<supermop>and choose which to paste by some modifier key
11:37<supermop>is that possible andythenorth ?
11:38<Wolf01>andythenorth: when we'll get a common point for that I could start looking at the code, honestly I don't even have an idea of how it should work
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11:40<supermop>Wolf01: andythenorth focus on other flags first?
11:40<Wolf01>no-houses is merged
11:40<Wolf01>I published the no-junctions branch, so it could be tested
11:41<andythenorth>supermop: you can have multiple clipboards on mac, but only with 3rd party apps
11:41<andythenorth>and it's a security risk, they can read passwords etc
11:42<supermop>oh well. i just want 'paste the tan box' and 'paste the dark tan box'
11:48<Wolf01>Paste all the tan boxes first and the dark tan ones later
11:48<Wolf01>And if you need different combinations, do them before and paste the combinations :P
11:48<supermop>some need to go in front of dark tan boxes, some need to go behind
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11:49<Samu>i still have no feedback about this :(
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11:49<Wolf01>Draw white boxes, arrange them as you want, add colour, add shading :P
11:50<Samu>feels like I did that for nothing :| /foreveralone
11:50<Wolf01>The hard life of a developer
11:51<Samu>well, i had some feedback, about filenames being too long
11:51<Samu>but, other than that, i dunno if ppl can use those patches
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12:03<supermop>ok boxes done
12:09<andythenorth>no feedback is still feedback
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12:36<supermop>andythenorth: what about random variant grey with 1cc as alternate for 1cc with 2cc
12:37<supermop>i guess i can recolor or something
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12:39<supermop>yellow boxcars look odd
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12:53<andythenorth>Wolf01: disabled construction of drive-in stops?
12:53<andythenorth>that's another flag?
12:54<andythenorth>what are Roadsides and Underlay?
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12:54<andythenorth>so basically the core is done?
12:54<andythenorth>there's a bug in SE?
12:54<Wolf01>Yes, at least until I merge the other branch
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13:51<andythenorth>so what next?
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13:58<Wolf01>Merge can-build-too-long-name, decide how to implement roads built by cities
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13:59<Wolf01>No, that's point 4, before there is "???"
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14:18<Samu>i just realized something
14:18<Samu>forbid 90 degrees has a positive impact on yapf
14:18<Samu>less nodes to search
14:19<Samu>at least in theory
14:20<Samu>when entering a new tile, coming from a diagonal with forbid 90 degrees, there's only 2 choices, not 3
14:22<Samu>i'm speaking about water tiles, mind u
14:27<andythenorth>forbid 90 degress causes lost ships
14:28<andythenorth>with yapf
14:28<andythenorth>they get stuck in dead ends
14:28<andythenorth>and near some docks
14:33<Samu>testing my theory
14:35<Samu>2 days on debug x64 build with 5000 ships: 17.532 seconds, 16.981 seconds
14:37<Samu>with forbid 90 degrees: 17.152 seconds, 17.063 seconds
14:37<Samu>meh .-.
14:37<Samu>there goes the theory
14:38<Samu>i don't have a decent way to test this
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14:47<Eddi|zuHause>that setting should be split for trains and ships
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>and movement for ships maybe should be completely reworked
14:49<Samu>Eddi|zuHause: i did that
14:56<Samu>dbg: [yapf] [YAPFw]- 1- 3288 us - 125 rounds - 79 open - 124 closed - CHR 0.0% - C 1823 D 0 - c0(sc0, ts0, o0) --
14:56<Samu>dbg: [yapf] [YAPFw]- 2- 3333 us - 130 rounds - 80 open - 129 closed - CHR 0.0% - C 1823 D 0 - c0(sc0, ts0, o0) --
14:56<Samu>1 is with forbig 90 deg
14:56<Samu>2 is without
14:57<Samu>less rounds = more time? that's confusing
14:57<Samu>ah, no less rounds = less time, that's correct, my bad
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15:02<Samu>tested on another scenario, i got a different result
15:03<Samu>dbg: [yapf] [YAPFw]- 1- 20831 us - 2161 rounds - 1485 open - 2160 closed - CHR 0.0% - C 8823 D 0 - c0(sc0, ts0, o0) --
15:03<Samu>dbg: [yapf] [YAPFw]- 2- 18637 us - 1743 rounds - 1017 open - 1742 closed - CHR 0.0% - C 8823 D 0 - c0(sc0, ts0, o0) --
15:03<Samu>1 with forbod 90 deg
15:03<Samu>2 without
15:05<Samu>looks like I can't prove my theory, but at least, I know that forbid 90 degrees setting impacts the pathfinder performance somehow
15:06<@Alberth>that would be expected, as there are a different number of feasible paths
15:06<andythenorth>lo Alberth
15:06<@Alberth>lo andy
15:07<@Alberth>for ships it hardly matter though, as it's a sea of paths literally, so dropping 50% of them has little impact
15:07<@Alberth>you still have to visit the same number of tiles
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15:12<andythenorth>Wolf01: shall I merge long-branch-name?
15:14<Wolf01>If your tests passed, then yes
15:14<Wolf01>So we'll let other user test it more
15:14<andythenorth>ok pushed
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15:41<Wolf01>supermop_work: there is something to fix on asphalt road+catenary on unspooled
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16:23<stefino>last question about sounds. If road vehicle go out from bus stop or freight station( type where vehicle goes through), why there is no outgoing sound and it is only in "end" station. It was too poisonous in city?
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16:36<Samu>Wolf01: since you're working with roads, do you know the inner workings of how/when towns expand with roads?
16:36<Samu>town growth code
16:36<Wolf01>A bit
16:39<Samu>alright, i'd like you to take a look at this piece of code when you have time
16:39<Samu>sec, searching
16:41<Samu>I question whether I made the checks in the correct locations in code
16:42<Samu>sometimes I get a feeling the towns could grow more, and just don't grow
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16:44<Eddi|zuHause>i remember towns that went "ding" constantly
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>from an early version of german tram set
16:50<stefino>Eddi|zuHause: so it was removed due this ?
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>i don't remember it being removed
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16:54<Wolf01>Samu, if you limit the places where towns grow then it takes more time to grow in other places (they don't check continuously where to grow if failed to do it)
16:55<Wolf01>You can try it in scenario editor, expand towns, it will take more clicks to get the same size of the original version
17:02<Samu>they appear to reach a situation where no matter how many tries, it just won't grow anymore
17:03<Wolf01>Maybe they lock in? They shouldn't be able to build houses where roads go, but I can't be sure
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17:26*andythenorth bed
17:26<andythenorth>Wolf01: maybe more tomorrow?
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18:32<nielsm>hi I'm toying around with making a patch that adds a "cargo-tiles delivered" statistic to vehicles, as an alternate measure of vehicle usefulness than profit
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18:33<nielsm>the basic idea being that while vehicles in slow legs on feeder routes can end up showing a "false loss", it's still useful to know whether they're actually moving cargo around
18:35<nielsm>(my dream is to replace the "min profit" component of performance rating with something that can actually be achieved when playing with cargodist for passengers, without making unrealistic routes where buses never link up with planes, etc.)
18:36<nielsm>does this sound viable/something worth keep working on?
18:37<nielsm>my current changeset, based on svn 27967:
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23:51<Flygon>Damn you OpenTTD.
23:51<Flygon>I'm suppose to be working on productive stuff but
23:51<Flygon>My body just really wants to OpenTTD.
---Logclosed Sun Feb 04 00:00:52 2018