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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-02-12

---Logopened Mon Feb 12 00:00:03 2018
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05:36<Samu_>guys, can GS retrieve company colours? I couldn't find anything about it at
05:37<Samu_>or is there a special {STRING] alike to get colors
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05:45<__ln__>national holiday?
05:45<Wolf01>Flu, terminally ill
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06:09<Samu_>how to retrieve company colour now ? :(
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>those are not the colours you are looking for *handwave*
06:25<@peter1138>RGB company colours!
06:25<@peter1138>Someone had a patch for that, 5-6 years ago...
06:27<Samu_>i wanted GS's to find out which colour a company has
06:27<Samu_>main colour
06:28<Samu_>GSCompany.GetColour or something is missing
06:31<@peter1138>Not sure how it would be useful.
06:46<Samu_>it would be useful here
06:46<Samu_>global goals listing, with the nice [##] colour scheme
06:47<Samu_>to quickly identify companies/players/vehicles
07:08<@peter1138>Well, a company colour blob done by company ID would work better than pulling out the company colour directly
07:08<@peter1138>May already be one
07:08<@peter1138>(string ID i mean)
07:08<@peter1138>(Or character)
07:27<@peter1138>{COMPANYCOLOUR} text id thing whatever they're called
07:38<Samu_>i was searching for that, but there isn't
07:38<Samu_>doesn't seem to exist
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07:43<Samu_>looked at strgen_tables.h and string.cpp and control_codes.h
07:45<@peter1138>Yeah, so make a patch. Doing it the string way is better than making the GS retrieve the colours though.
07:46<Samu_>wow, "make a patch", first time i don't see "make a newgrf" coming from devs
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09:20<Wolf01>I feel like the poor trucks at level crossing with maglev :|
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09:38<supermop_work_>this year's strain, same as we have in US wolf?
09:38<supermop_work_>i had it end of december, was brutal
09:38<supermop_work_>never been so sick with a flu before
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09:39<Wolf01>I had been really sick the past year, and I was waiting for this one to hit, I already dodged 3 flus in 3 months
09:41<supermop_work_>i pretty much just laid in bed
09:45<Wolf01>Me too, but I have to move sometimes because everything starts to ache
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09:58<Eddi|zuHause>can't be much worse than my teeth
09:58<Eddi|zuHause>(just returned from the dentist)
09:58<Wolf01>Exceps when all your 31 teeth ache because of fever
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>you don't know how my teeth feel like
10:14<supermop_work_>did the dentist take all of your teeth out?
10:15<Wolf01>Maybe he pushed some more in
10:15<supermop_work_>so wolf, do i need to ask frog for new nml to use no_houses?
10:15<Wolf01>Nah, better ask the cat
10:16<supermop_work_>no binaries from cat, least not yet
10:16<Eddi|zuHause>no, the dentist insisted there's only one tooth at fault, but it sure feels like all of them hurt
10:16<supermop_work_>get a gold one
10:16<Wolf01>Or compile it yourself
10:16<supermop_work_>maybe iridium
10:17<Wolf01>One with a cyanide capsule
10:17<Wolf01>Mmmmh, icecream
10:17<supermop_work_>maybe not in irridium then unless you've got a powerful jaw
10:18<supermop_work_>ice cream capsule in tooth?
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>i never understood those cyanide tooth thing, sounds like something that is way too likely to go off unintended
10:21<supermop_work_>first time i saw that, was reading dune as a kid
10:21<supermop_work_>and i thought 'this doesn't make sense'
10:21<supermop_work_>and sure enough it didn't work
10:21<Eddi|zuHause>i think it was in a james bond movie
10:22<supermop_work_>spoilers for the first dune book i guess
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>i never read the books
10:22<supermop_work_>if you haven't read it in the last 50 years
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>it doesn't matter how old a book is
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>there's always someone who never read it, but intends to
10:23<supermop_work_>i should read them again i guess
10:26<Wolf01>Me too
10:26<Wolf01>Nut only the first 2... the others are too much weird
10:26<supermop_work_>i think i read 6
10:27<supermop_work_>ithink the guys son wrote some more after those
10:27<Wolf01>Yep, I read 6 too
10:27<supermop_work_>yeah the late ones are quite a rabbit hole
10:28<supermop_work_>also come one someone over those 4000 years has to have built himself a little computer somewhere
10:28<supermop_work_>*come on
10:28<Wolf01>They had mentats, why do they needed computers?
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>they have chinese people in the basement remembering numbers?
10:29<Wolf01>Sort of
10:29<supermop_work_>thats like how their galactic economy works
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>well, our global economy works on computers from the 70s running COBOL...
10:30<supermop_work_>most things a computer would do, like accounting or navigation, is just a specialized person raised from birth to do that task
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>isn't one of the central cores of that whole universe that for navigation you need this "spice" drug?
10:31<supermop_work_>but if you just used a damn computer you wouldn't need people out of their minds on spice to do all your calculations
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like a way less interesting universe :p
10:32<supermop_work_>but computers are illegal
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>how can they be illegal if nobody ever built one?
10:33<supermop_work_>they had a jihad some 1000+ years in the past against computers and robots
10:33<Wolf01>Oh they built many, also AIs, that's why they were illegal
10:34<Wolf01>AIs are bad
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know nearly enough lore around dune
10:34<supermop_work_>there is one planet that is basically a secret guild that is hinted to have kept or redeveloped some computers, and which supplies basic technology
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>so this is a post-singularity universe, where the humans won out over the sentient robots
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10:40<supermop_work_>more or less
10:42<supermop_work_>humans are not very unified though, and
10:43<supermop_work_>i think maybe first 3 are worth a shot?
10:43<supermop_work_>4-6 certainly are different
10:43<supermop_work_>and i recall them being depressing
10:44<Wolf01>Poor Duncan
10:44<supermop_work_>this was like 22 or so years ago though
10:44<supermop_work_>so who know
10:46<supermop_work_>though there is a bit more deep space travel in later books
10:52<Samu_>weee. we did it
10:53<Samu_>it works!
10:54<Samu_>i named it {COMPANY_COLOUR} // SCC_COMPANY_COLOUR
10:54<Samu_>still unsure about some variables, need confirmation on this
10:54<Samu_>{"COMPANY_COLOUR", EmitSingleChar, SCC_COMPANY_COLOUR, 1, -1, C_NONE},
10:55<Samu_>those numbers, dunno what they're for
10:56<Samu_>is 1, -1 fine?
10:57<nielsm>the table is declared like this: static const CmdStruct _cmd_structs[]
10:57<nielsm>so it's an array of CmdStruct structs
10:57<nielsm>that type is defined a few lines above
10:58<nielsm>which tells you what each field is
10:59<Samu_>but it's still unclear what it does
11:00<nielsm>"consumes" likely is how many string formatting arguments it uses up
11:01<nielsm>and "default_plural_offset" probably controls which of the arguments the control code takes that controls the plurals generations
11:04<nielsm>so if you want to make a control code that takes a company id as argument and selects a color based on that, it's probably correct
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11:21<Borg>da fuck....
11:21<Borg>spam attack again? so +R was necessary? or what?
11:22<Borg>anyway.. I was obeserwing city growing recently.. in I noticed that algoritm there kinda sucks..
11:22<Borg>like.. replacing large office block w/ park for example..
11:22<Borg>that barelly happens in real live.. ground there is way too expensive
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11:29<nielsm>yes or the classic tearing down a stadium to make way for a single family house
11:29<nielsm>especially bad in small towns where it can often mean your bus stop suddenly loses passenger acceptance
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>well, the algorithm doesn't really understan house types
11:31<nielsm>but it might make sense to implement something like cost of a town expansion, used to weigh different options
11:32<nielsm>and maybe even include age of the building being torn down, if that's not too expensive (memory-wise)
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>you need to make a much broader approach there
11:32<nielsm>most interesting could be if some buildings get preserved forever
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>you need a proper town planner simulation for that
11:35<supermop_work_>Eddi|zuHause: could probably approximate it somehow
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>which brings you deep into "but the game is not about that" territory
11:35<supermop_work_>make towns subject to same removal cost penalties as players
11:35<supermop_work_>so prefer to remove lesser buildings
11:36<nielsm>and maybe not make construction choices that will lower the total population :)
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11:38<Eddi|zuHause>that won't prevent stadiums being replaced by houses
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>while it may prevent hotels or office buildings appearing in the center
11:41<nielsm>I'd think it would be possible to make a general algorithm that prefers building a house on a new plot across the street, rather than tearing down an existing construction, while also recognizing that growth requires building taller in the center now
11:44<Samu_>is this called string control code? formating control code?
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11:48<nielsm>hmm where would I add settings controlling how the performance rating score is calculated, under Accounting would make most sense I think?
11:48<nielsm>or maybe in Environment?
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11:54<Samu_>patch for peter1138, should i post in spraybug site?
11:55<@peter1138>Oh you actually print the name of the colour, haha
11:56<supermop_work_>Eddi|zuHause: i think stadia should gradually move away from centers
11:56<Samu_>yeah, i know it's not pretty, but at least it's something
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12:07<Borg>well... there is house population counter right?
12:08<Borg>for every building... aka capacity
12:08<Borg>replace only buildings w/ lower capacity
12:08<Borg>so.. town will slowly grow from center to outside
12:08<Borg>like in real world.. where suburbans areas are filled first w/ small housing
12:08<supermop_work_>borg, sometimes towns shrink, or sprawl to become less dense, which might also be desirable
12:08<Borg>and center w/ skycrappers.. because land cost is biiiig
12:09<Borg>how town can shrink actually?
12:09<supermop_work_>in game or in real life? it can in both
12:09<Borg>except of course.. due to current alrogitm being dumb.. and demolish sky crapper for statue or park
12:09<Borg>no no.. I mean in game..
12:09<Borg>in real life.. small towns can die off.. like mining towns
12:10<supermop_work_>in game by replacement with lower buildings, and also by influence of GS
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12:10<Borg>GS is different story.. lets not involve it right now
12:11<supermop_work_>people move out of cities into suburbs, or to other regions
12:11<Borg>of course..
12:11<Borg>but as I said.. removing sky crapper for park looks.. kinda weird.. especialy. when there is plenty of place or bare land around
12:12<supermop_work_>most planners would consider the trends of late 20th Century american urban development a mistake, but might be interesting in a game
12:12<supermop_work_>well i agree that the current town grown method is too clumsy
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12:13<Borg>supermop_work_: wait a min.. we are not discussing real world problems here :)
12:14<Borg>I agree that current city planners sux ass... money.. nothing else matters here
12:14<Borg>but we are not on #solving_world_urban_problems
12:15<nielsm>a town enter _should_ have parks and plazas, but those should generally be ones that have "always" been parks or plazas
12:15<supermop_work_>Borg: on the contrary current city planners work hard to correct the mistakes made from 1950s-90s, and really do not make much money
12:15<supermop_work_>but my arguement is a shrinkin, sprawling city would be desirable in game
12:15<Borg>supermop_work_: maybe in place where u living..
12:16<Borg>supermop_work_: yeah.. but how make city to actually shrink? openttd doesnt support that at all? except mistake like: we want to city to grow.. lets find a place to plant some.. oh wait.. that skyscrapper looks old.. boom.. and we have park here
12:16<nielsm>when a town grows its core area and starts replacing buildings with higher density ones, it should convert a small percentage to parks/plazas, and those should have a very high "cost" to be replaced with other buildings
12:17<supermop_work_>one reason public transit is so bad in the US, despite being very good from 1900-1950, are these urban changes and the ifficulty adapting -- it would be a fun challenge to try to 'beat' the historical scenario
12:17<supermop_work_>Borg: i think cities might periodically remove old buildings anyway
12:18<Borg>public transit is bad.. because probably its the same like here... spliting towns in areas: living, commerce, industrials.. etc
12:18<supermop_work_>if you remove the center road piece, houses will disappear slowly, and no new ones will grow
12:18<Borg>supermop_work_: of course.. its ok.. to remove buildings.. and place similar in place.. a bit smaller/same/a bit larger
12:18<supermop_work_>so some method must be removing those old houses
12:19<Borg>but... not to plant fucking statue.. because land cost on that building is already astronomical.. noone would waste it :) close to center.. but its just my opinion
12:19<Borg>supermop_work_: ahh.. didnt know that.. never was doing extensive City tests
12:20<Borg>anyway.. thats all.. it was my 2 cents :) u do what u see fit..
12:20<supermop_work_>borg, outside of gs city should be able to replace skyscraper with park or even nothing, just with tiny probability
12:21<supermop_work_>as if town had some limited 'capital' each month based on how much it is growing
12:21<Borg>I would rather replace small houses to park.. instead of sky crapper.. ;) but ok
12:21<supermop_work_>so just like for player, removing an expensive building is less preffered than building on bare land
12:22<supermop_work_>Here in NYC, sometimes a 10-20 floor building is replaced with a park, so that the building next door may be made taller
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>in my city, which has been shrinking for decades now, lots of houses have been torn down with no replacement, and also some "skyscrapers" have been nocked down with small or no replacement
12:23<Borg>taller.. so park gets less light.. and then.. dies off.. smart
12:23<Borg>Eddi|zuHause: of course.. it HAPPENS...
12:23<Borg>okey. no futher comments :)
12:24<supermop_work_>Borg: the parks are there because only a certain percentage of a block can be so tall, to allow light down to street level
12:24<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know what you want, though. something that happens in the real world happens also in the game.
12:24<Eddi|zuHause>where's the problem, other than the game is really "dumb" about it?
12:24<Borg>Eddi|zuHause: I noticed that freshly made buildings.. bigger one.. who start accepting goods..
12:24<supermop_work_>such parks are usually benches, pavements, shade tolerant plants, not soccer pitches
12:24<Borg>are later on.. replaced by statue.. or park..
12:25<Borg>even when u ask to build new commercial building
12:25<Borg>thats not ok.. in my opinion :)
12:25<Borg>but... leave it as it..
12:25<Borg>anyway.. what about PAX generation? u really touching it?
12:25<Borg>because I saw ppl bitching off that dense city produce way too much passengers..
12:26<supermop_work_>it is dumb at the atomic level, but overall towns do trend to denser and bigger
12:26<Borg>supermop_work_: yeah.. after a while they grow indeed..
12:26<Borg>so. maybe not a big problem after all
12:26<Borg>just observation
12:26<supermop_work_>another problem is that the vanilla houses have many 'park' type buildings for the center zone 5, with a high probability
12:27<supermop_work_>with some other sets like swedish houses or japanese houses, you end up with a much higher percentage of big buildings in the center
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12:52<snail_UES_>guys, question for you… anyone knows what are the labels used by Japanese tracks?
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13:02<frosch123> <- it lists some
13:02<frosch123>no idea whether they are correct
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13:03<snail_UES_>this might be outdated...
13:05<frosch123> <- or check that
13:15<supermop_work_>hi frosch123, sorry to bug, but will nml get built with latest NRT changes?
13:15<frosch123>i think there is no automatism :p someone has to do it
13:17<frosch123>hmm, has been ages since i did that..
13:24<frosch123>supermop_work_: i guess that will take a while
13:24<frosch123>i do not have a readily available compile environment for it
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14:43<supermop_work_>will need to make a few ore Bufo trucks
14:45<frosch123>hmm, i bought the wrong kind of apple
14:51<supermop_work_>granny smith instead of macbook pro?
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14:52<frosch123>no, gala tenroy instead of braeburn
14:56<supermop_work_>neither of those i would consider baking apples
14:56<supermop_work_>what are you going to do with them
14:56<frosch123>eating raw?
14:57<frosch123>but gala tastes really boring
14:57<supermop_work_>indeed i agree with you there
15:11<Borg>uh oh.. eat them while you can.. ;)
15:11<Borg>when bees will extinct.. you will dream to eat any of those ;)
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21:07<Andy1233>Ok, so wasnt expecting this to still be going
21:08<Andy1233>guys, is there any way to force a save or scenario to load without the GRF it's missing
21:09<Andy1233>Of all things it is "town-buildings.grf" - 42650104
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21:28<Andy1233>anyone? I have a save and a scenario that are missing "town-buildings.grf - 42650104" GRF, It's not appearing in the online finder and I can't find it manually. Can I edit the scenario with a new GRF for building or brute force it not to look for the new one?#
21:28<Eddi|zuHause>yes. but we don't talk about it
21:29<Eddi|zuHause>lots of things will probably break if you remove a newgrf
21:30<Eddi|zuHause>you'll have to enable the secret "scenario_developer" setting
21:33<Andy1233>why would it now revert back to default town buildings?
21:34<Eddi|zuHause>it might
21:35<Eddi|zuHause>but there might be existing buildings with invalid layouts and stuff
21:35<Eddi|zuHause>and the grf might have changed other things
21:35<Eddi|zuHause>there's a reason we have hidden this setting
21:36<Andy1233>console command?
21:38<Eddi|zuHause>i've already said more than i should
21:41<Andy1233>Why would you hide it? Just have a massive disclaimer
21:41<Andy1233>set newgrf_developer_tools 1
21:42<Andy1233>Thank you, at least the map is loading...only took an hour
21:45<Andy1233>As some feedback...I find it hard to believe that if there's a missing GRF there's not a way to revert it to a basic in built one...especially if the ID is working and would allow it to be compared to another GRF....missing XXXXXX.GRF is a train but is missing so just use YYYYYYY.GRF instead...yeah the design will be different but would at least allow the scenario to run
21:46<Eddi|zuHause>Andy1233: we used to have a giant disclaimer, but people generally clicked through that without thinking about it
21:46<Eddi|zuHause>Andy1233: and grfs can change way more of the core game mechanics than just the look of the train
21:46<Eddi|zuHause>Andy1233: it's impossible to know what a GRF did if that GRF is missing, so we cannot always detect how to revert the changes to a valid game state
21:47<Eddi|zuHause>Andy1233: if you're "lucky" it just crashes right away, but most of the times you don't notice how broken the game is until like 10 to 20 years later, when it's impossible to fix even if you found the newgrf again
21:48<Eddi|zuHause>Andy1233: basically we were drowning in hard to reproduce bug reports from people ignoring the disclaimer, so we had to hide the setting
21:51<Andy1233>Ok, thanks for the 'secret' console command anyway
21:56<Eddi|zuHause>Andy1233: just a short list of things that are probably not safe: removing train/truck/whatever sets while you have any trains/trucks/whatevers. removing/adding industry sets. changing the order of station sets
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---Logclosed Tue Feb 13 00:00:05 2018