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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-04-15

---Logopened Sun Apr 15 00:00:30 2018
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01:57<@Alberth>arahael: Apple considers GPL-based software evil, and does not allow it on its store etc
02:20<arahael>Alberth: I heard that - seems to be a controversal topic.
02:20<@Alberth>in what way?
02:21<arahael>Alberth: I hear mixed reports there, and apparently the actual agreement doesn't mention the GPL specifically. (I still need to read it)
02:21<@Alberth>openttd with loads of other gpl-based software was added in the beginning, and at one day, apple removed it because "not compatible with our TOS"
02:21<arahael>Did they say why?
02:22<@Alberth>I never actually read it
02:22<@Alberth>Apple is too closed source for me to ever consider buying anything from them
02:22<arahael>The actual approval/removal on the app store does seem to... Vary, to put it mildly.
02:23<arahael>Yeah, lets not go there. :)
02:23<arahael>They make nice devices, but apple aren't a computing platform.
02:23<arahael>Even if they are - technically - computers, they might as well not be.
02:23<@Alberth>the crap is that users don't expect that apple controls what software they can run
02:24<@Alberth>so they come here, and ask why etc
02:24<arahael>Just tell it was added, but they got removed as apple didn't like it. :)
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02:25<@Alberth>likely there is a discussion with more details on the forum
02:25<@Alberth>moin andy
02:25<arahael>Yeah, honestly I didn't really want to debate about this, I just wanted a simple yes/no answer - and if yes, which one it was. :)
02:26<arahael>Concerning that you say it was specifically removed due to the GPL, though.
02:26<arahael>Because I was hoping that Gnucash could be ported to it.
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02:27<@Alberth>you may want to read their tos, the answer should be there
02:27<arahael>Alberth: I intend to.
02:28<arahael>Alberth: Worst case comes to worse: Gnucash could be a source-only install. :)
02:28<arahael>Alberth: And ditto for openttd, if it exists with that port.
02:29<@Alberth>given that about 101% of the ipad users can't compile things, that won't do much good :p
02:29<arahael>Alberth: I'm a fairly selfish type of person, I've noticed. ;)
02:30<andythenorth>Apple appear to remove GPL stuff
02:30*andythenorth back to trains
02:31<arahael>andythenorth: That, if true, is going to be very interesting: It implies that the LGPL licence is also bad... And that you therefore can't use Qt or thel ike without really expensive licenses.
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02:31<@Alberth>is ipad even usable for openttd? you need a fast processor for it
02:31<andythenorth>ipad benchmarks are nearly as high as my mac
02:31<SpComb>trains are more fun than apple and GPL
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02:31<andythenorth>insane fast for a piece of glass
02:31<andythenorth>it's ridiculous
02:31<arahael>Alberth: The latest A10/A11 processors are as fast as the intel laptops. It's insane.
02:31<andythenorth>but still a very restricted annoying device
02:31<andythenorth>we have 2
02:31<arahael>Alberth: There are rumours that Apple might be switching to them for their laptops.
02:32<arahael>andythenorth: I actually bought the iPhonef or security reasons - Android is pretty crap there, and is less open than people think.
02:32<andythenorth>the rationale for Apple removing GPL is that App Store ToS violate the GPL
02:32<@Alberth>A10/11 are arm processors?
02:32<andythenorth>rather than the other way around
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02:32<arahael>Alberth: Modified ARM, yes. They have additional changes to them, secure enclave, etcetera, along with other speed enchancements.
02:32<arahael>andythenorth: Thanks for that link!
02:33<andythenorth>Sophie Wilson's design went a long way eh
02:33<@Alberth>ah, I once owned one of the early arms, and with 8MHz beated a 80386 at 40MHz :)
02:34<@Alberth>so yeah, the thing is fast :)
02:34<peter1138>The remaining legacy of British computing success...
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02:37<@Alberth>nice link :)
02:37<andythenorth>but nobody has open-source cloned Chocks Away eh
02:37<arahael>Woo! Awesome - and she's a woman. :)
02:38<@Alberth>andy: I got as far as an empty window at the screen :p
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02:38<@Alberth>so a clone exists, it just isn't very playable yet :p
02:39<andythenorth>I could just ask him on LinkedIn if we can ^^
02:40<@Alberth>hmm, could be a nice project for playing with a game engine
02:40<@Alberth>but need to finish some java first
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02:44<andythenorth>so good
02:54<@Alberth>indeed :)
03:03<peter1138>VR chocks away pls
03:08<@Alberth>haha, would be nice, but not me, too much troubled by motion sickness
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03:13<peter1138>I don't get it in seated games, cos I'm seated.
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04:22<andythenorth>lo TrueBrain
04:22<TrueBrain>first time CI keeps a PR from happening for the right reasons :D
04:44<TrueBrain>so what is on the agenda today .. owh, yeah, I was going to disable svn access :D
04:45<andythenorth>so when are we getting conveyor belts? o_O
04:45<andythenorth>as a transport type
04:45<TrueBrain>wrong game andythenorth :)
04:45<SpComb>no, power grids. It makes no sense for power
04:45<TrueBrain>V453000 would not appreciate that :D
04:46<SpComb>plants to not produce anything!
04:46<andythenorth>it's fine
04:46<andythenorth>conveyors, power grids, cable cars, etc
04:46<andythenorth>they're implemented as vehicles, but with super hax
04:48<andythenorth>it's conceptually hard and we'd probably get it wrong
04:48<andythenorth>which is why we should try :)
04:48<andythenorth>new ways to wreck stuff
04:48<andythenorth>V453000 would agree
04:49<@Alberth>pipe grfs already exist :)
04:49<andythenorth>they have to be used in an interesting way
04:51<andythenorth>far as I can tell, this is the most efficient way to use them
04:51<andythenorth>transfers at 'pumping stations'
04:52<andythenorth>although this also
04:53<@Alberth>looks good, pity about the depots
04:53<TrueBrain>okay, svn is no longer reachable via, but only via
04:53<@Alberth>hmm, enable breakdowns would emite black smoke from the pipe?
04:54<andythenorth>TrueBrain: good, forwards :)
04:54<TrueBrain>that should at least show all things that still used svn :D
04:54<@Alberth>hg patch queues could be imported into git, I guess?
04:55<TrueBrain>git apply <01> <02> <03>
04:55<TrueBrain>possibly even: git apply *
04:55<TrueBrain>never tried more than 1 file :)
04:55<TrueBrain>(best thing about patch queues .. they are patches :D)
04:56<@Alberth>probably against old hgs :p but good, seems like the best solution
04:58<TrueBrain>yeah, that is one thing I did find out .. a lot of people have very old patch-sets etc :D
05:00<TrueBrain>is -Werror not in OpenTTD? Hmm .. that makes the CI a bit less useful
05:01<TrueBrain>andythenorth: do you also have on some fancy shared-edit site, or do you want comments over IRC? :)
05:02<andythenorth>it's in my github fork
05:02<andythenorth>could just PR it :P
05:02<andythenorth>I am going out in about 2 mins btw
05:02<TrueBrain>he's going out
05:02<TrueBrain>he has the world to show
05:02<andythenorth>and other lyrics
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07:21<FLHerne>FWIW: I got shut out of the channel by the user limit yesterday, perhaps it would be a good idea to raise it?
07:21<FLHerne>It's clearly possible to have more than 160 people or so
07:21<FLHerne>Um, now my client says that +l isnt set anymore
07:21<FLHerne>Was there some particular reason?
07:23<peter1138>TrueBrain having fun probably.
07:26<LordAro>FLHerne: it got set to 99 when updating the topic for some reason
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07:55<@Alberth>huh, g++ accepts "-dumpversion" ???
07:56<@Alberth>gnu dropped their gnu option conventions?
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08:01<andythenorth>ok TB I merged TB's changes here
08:01<@Alberth>LordAro: ccache doesn't understand the -dumpversion
08:01<andythenorth>is that structure now correct?
08:01<andythenorth>can just fill out the ALL CAPS BITS?
08:02<@Alberth>not sure you can even detect that though, as it redirects the path
08:09<TrueBrain>Alberth: -dumpversion and -dumpspecs has been working since GCC 2.95 or so
08:09<TrueBrain>one ofthe odd ones :)
08:10<@Alberth>very :)
08:10<TrueBrain>tnx michi_cc, for the comments; was trying to understand what your patch changes that regression failed .. I failed at that :D
08:13<andythenorth>hmm Road Hog vehicles are missing from buy menu
08:13<andythenorth>it's this vehicle expiry stuff again :(
08:13<andythenorth>am I going to remove it for 3rd time?
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08:16<andythenorth>the replacement for this truck has an intro date of 1940
08:16<andythenorth>the model life stuff is supposed to keep this one available until the replacement shows up
08:16<andythenorth>but it fails
08:16<andythenorth>what am I doing wrong? o_O
08:17<TrueBrain>okay, upgrading eints .. how can I do this ..
08:18<TrueBrain>wait, doesnt frosch123 have access to the VM? Can I not just tell him to do it? :P
08:18<TrueBrain>he does! :P
08:18<andythenorth>1910 intro date, 69 year life, 30 year retire early
08:18<andythenorth>should be gone in 1949
08:18<andythenorth>it's gone in 1939
08:18<frosch123>you did stuff with ansible and told me to not change stuff on the vm since ansible resets everything
08:18<TrueBrain>then I stopped using Ansible :P
08:19<frosch123>is ansible uncool these days?
08:19<andythenorth>Ansible is Ansible
08:19<TrueBrain>just without a test server, it is very difficult
08:19<andythenorth>it's +/-0 on cool
08:19<TrueBrain>and having a second server for OpenTTD neverhas been worth it
08:19<andythenorth>it's dangerous to develop ansible scripts in production :)
08:20<andythenorth>also sun rises in morning :P
08:20<andythenorth>and other obvs. statements
08:20<andythenorth>so why is model life broken then Eddi|zuHause? :(
08:20<TrueBrain>first I have to understand again how eints worked ..
08:21<frosch123>TrueBrain: <- that's the text i gave you last time
08:22<TrueBrain>you should dockerize it! :D
08:22<@Alberth>haha :)
08:22<@Alberth>hmm, configure believes ccache is a compiler
08:23<TrueBrain>ccache is intended to behave like that
08:23<frosch123>anyway, somewhere you have a hg checkout from
08:23<TrueBrain>completely transparent
08:23<TrueBrain>I just installed git
08:23<frosch123>you need to pull there
08:23<andythenorth>ugh, can I not just have a cb on all vehicles, 'vehicle of ID was introduced' :P
08:23<TrueBrain>do I have to worry about all the .bupNN files?
08:23<andythenorth>and then set availability correspondingly
08:24<frosch123>no, eints always keeps 5 backups of everything or so
08:24<andythenorth>hmm no an availability CB could deadlock trivially :P
08:24<TrueBrain>I have 1 change in stable_languages/spanish_MX.txt
08:24<frosch123>yes, i updated that
08:24<TrueBrain>do I need to keep that, or can I just update?
08:25<andythenorth>A is introduced, B retires, A retires because B was retired, B is introduced because A retired boom circular singularity
08:25<andythenorth>world ends
08:25<frosch123>if it was locally modified at your site, then i also pushed it yesterday
08:25<frosch123>so, pull should give the same
08:25<+michi_cc>TrueBrain: How the hell is the regression test supposed to work? I think I found my error, but when I try to run regression locally, I get totally inconsistent and changing results.
08:26<TrueBrain>regression set simply runs some predefined savegame, and runs a bunch of actions on it, knowing the result (given OpenTTD is deterministic if you set the srand)
08:26<frosch123>michi_cc: i think your changes cause a different calls to random(), so everything changes
08:26<TrueBrain>frosch123: how do I update hg again?
08:26<TrueBrain>hg update didnt do anything, neither did hg pull
08:27<frosch123>hg pull --rebase
08:27<TrueBrain>rebase not recognized
08:27<frosch123>does "hg qapplied" say anything?
08:27<frosch123>if empty, then "hg pull -u"
08:27<+michi_cc>frosch123: I know that, but I get random pass/fails when just running regression multiple times on *unmodified* trunk.
08:27<TrueBrain>unknown command qapplied
08:28<frosch123>ok, then count that as "empty" :p
08:28<TrueBrain>michi_cc: very odd; I dont have that issue, neither does the CI .. dunno :(
08:28<TrueBrain>repository default not found
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08:28<TrueBrain>I really dont like hg anymore :D
08:29<TrueBrain>default =
08:29<@Alberth>too much git-washed :p
08:29<frosch123>well, can you ping that url :p
08:29<TrueBrain>wget on the URL works
08:30<frosch123>fresh clone also works for me
08:30<TrueBrain>ah, I was trying it under root users; that failed
08:31<TrueBrain>switching to right user gives me certificate error :D
08:31<TrueBrain>let me upgrade the cas
08:31<@Alberth>ok, /usr/lib64/ccache/g++ points to /usr/bin/ccache, configure picks up g++, then resolve the real path which gives /usr/bin/ccache, and then tries -dumpversion on it
08:31<TrueBrain>Alberth: what are you trying to do? :)
08:31<@Alberth>run ./configure
08:31<TrueBrain>ccache is quiet a niche thing
08:32<TrueBrain>./configure --with-ccache works out-of-the-box for me btw :)
08:32<@Alberth>I don't even explicitly enable it, although fedora puts it in the path first
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08:32<Brainzman>Hi !
08:33<@Alberth>that configure line breaks for me
08:34<TrueBrain>do you have a compiler installed? :D
08:34<TrueBrain>(what is the error?)
08:34<@Alberth>do you need that??? :p
08:34<TrueBrain>depends on what you want to do :D
08:34<TrueBrain>why do you have ccache installed :P
08:34<@Alberth>/usr/bin/ccache: invalid option -- 'd'
08:35<LordAro>is this my realpath stuff still breaking things?
08:35<@Alberth>and then some /home/alberth/openttd/play/config.lib: line 1378: [: -lt: unary operator expected as the result is empty string
08:36<TrueBrain>so on Alberth's system ccache took over g++?
08:36<@Alberth>apparently with softlinks
08:36<LordAro>i'd suggest it's an issue with your system that it's picking ccache/g++ over actual g++, but it should be handled properly
08:36<@Alberth>fedora adds it as default first in the path
08:36<@Alberth>if you install ccacje
08:36<TrueBrain>ah .. that is not what I would expect a system to do
08:36<TrueBrain>but that does explain indeed :)
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08:38<TrueBrain>the annoying part is, ccache uses "how" you executed it to know what he should run
08:38<TrueBrain>(it is just a thin wrapper)
08:38<TrueBrain>so ccache/gcc symlinks to ccache, but he sess you tried to run ccache/gcc, so it redirects to gcc
08:38<TrueBrain>we now use realpath to find out what things REALLY point to
08:38<TrueBrain>and so it breaks :D
08:38<TrueBrain>so yeah, LordAro, possible your solution breaks more stuff :(
08:39<TrueBrain>you need another way to detect clang :P
08:39<LordAro>PATH=/usr/lib64/ccache/bin/:$PATH ./configure confirmed
08:41<frosch123>can't you use some "--version"
08:41<LordAro>i was going for a simple change
08:41<LordAro>simple change did not work
08:41<TrueBrain>reminds me; frosch123, why doesn't OpenTTD have -Werror? Is there a good reason? It makes the CI a bit less useful :)
08:42<LordAro>easier compatibility with different versions, i imagine
08:42<@Alberth>changes are never simple :(
08:42<LordAro>i.e. there's a warning with latest gcc and a different one with latest clang
08:42<TrueBrain>shouldnt both be fixed? :D Or I can add it to the CIs at least?
08:42<frosch123>TrueBrain: i am not aware we have Werror :)
08:43<LordAro>you could pass it in with CFLAGS
08:43<TrueBrain>frosch123: that is what I say .. we don't; so you awareness is correct :)
08:43<frosch123>makefile stuff was always done by rb and sz, now la :)
08:43<LordAro>since they work now :)
08:43<frosch123>oh, i missed the negation
08:44<frosch123>TrueBrain: in that case i think the 9x farm always had tons of warnings
08:44<TrueBrain>okay, so I will just add in the CIs that they should enable it, for those we care about :)
08:44<frosch123>so, imho first get all targets, then see the implications of enabling Werror :)
08:44<peter1138>Just add it always.
08:45<peter1138>Hmm, yeah, maybe that :p
08:45<TrueBrain>okay, updated the eints box .. hopefully that fixes the certificate issues ..
08:46<frosch123>my test vm had jessie, and that was too old
08:46<frosch123>i updated it to stable
08:46<TrueBrain>right, ignored the certificate
08:46<TrueBrain>I have updated eints :D
08:47<frosch123>i have no rights to delete ~transaltors/eints/openttd_lang
08:48<frosch123>do i need to su to translators or something?
08:48<TrueBrain>lets have 1 person working on 1 job :D
08:48<TrueBrain>if me and you both work for the same goal, shit goes wrong real quick :D
08:48<frosch123>aw, i can't backseat work you?
08:48<TrueBrain>only in a shared screen :)
08:48<TrueBrain>and yes, you need to su to translators for any actions
08:49<frosch123>anyway, eints/openttd_lang can be deleted, eints-svn needs to be replaced with a git clone
08:49<TrueBrain>eints-svn is only of the lang folder .. is that also the case for git?
08:49<andythenorth>@calc 1910 + 69 - 8 - 30
08:49<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 1941
08:49<TrueBrain>or do the scripts takes care of that?
08:49<LordAro>frosch123: screen -x
08:49<frosch123>TrueBrain: i changed that, the scripts now expect src/lang
08:50<TrueBrain>checkout is running
08:51<andythenorth>@calc 1940 + 17
08:51<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 1957
08:51<TrueBrain>frosch123: anything else?
08:52<frosch123> and
08:52<TrueBrain>I did update-from- .. so I can run that now, not?
08:52<frosch123>replace all occurences of "svn" with "git"
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08:52<frosch123>i.e. scrript name is now
08:52<TrueBrain>owh, but eints has to run for that if I remember correctly?
08:52<frosch123>and commands are update-from-git and commit-to-git
08:53<TrueBrain>cool; always happy if things are what I expect them to be :D
08:53<frosch123>yes, it has to run when you run the scripts
08:53<frosch123>you can add a "--dry-run" to "commit-to-git", that will commit but stop before pushing
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08:54<TrueBrain>but let me first get eints up and running again ..
08:54<TrueBrain>it fails to load
08:54<TrueBrain>logs show nothing that helps :(
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08:56<frosch123>do they show anything?
08:56<TrueBrain>can eints not start without openttd_lang folder or something?
08:56<TrueBrain>process starts, and stops immediatly
08:57<TrueBrain>produces no logs as far as I can spot
08:57<frosch123>openttd_lang folder is only temporary
08:58<TrueBrain>let me try the 'run' thingy
08:58<TrueBrain>that seems to take longer to do something
08:58<frosch123>it reads all the data on start, takes like 10 seconds or so
08:58<TrueBrain>ah, no folder to drop the pid file
08:58<frosch123>when it says something about bottle and ctrl-c, it is done
08:59<TrueBrain>again, it outputs NOTHING
08:59<TrueBrain>it just stops :(
08:59<TrueBrain>pid folder didnt help
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08:59<TrueBrain>stop && start
08:59<TrueBrain>did work now
08:59<TrueBrain>(I hate sysv wrappers)
09:00<TrueBrain>any change sin config.xml needed?
09:01<TrueBrain>okay .. update-from-git finished
09:01<TrueBrain>nothing broke, I think
09:01<TrueBrain>(but also no new strings, so who can tell :D)
09:02<TrueBrain>running commit-to-git with -dry-run
09:02<TrueBrain>where can I see the result for that? :D
09:03<frosch123>in eints-git: git show HEAD
09:03<TrueBrain>can be that there are no changes I guess?
09:03<frosch123>commit-to-git always does a hard reset to origin/master, then adds one commit if something changed
09:03<TrueBrain>so I need a change :D
09:04<TrueBrain>can you see in the interface what is pending btw?
09:04<+michi_cc>Still no idea why I can't run regression reliable; let's just use the CI service for that :)
09:04<TrueBrain>michi_cc: what compiler / OS?
09:04<frosch123>german, dutch and french are up-to-date
09:04<TrueBrain>michi_cc: as I also cannot really imagine why it wouldnt .. it is kinda build to be reliable :)
09:05<frosch123>do we speak any other languages? :p
09:05<TrueBrain>frosch123: I am just going to change a string back and forth
09:05<TrueBrain>creates 2 commits I assume :P
09:05<TrueBrain>(where the second resets the first)
09:06<frosch123>it does a hard reset, so there is always only one commit ahead of origin
09:06<TrueBrain>owh, but if I enable login, people can make real changes too
09:06<frosch123>does not matter?
09:06<TrueBrain>but I still have some things to work out .. namely: how is it going to commit, and more importantly, how does it know to update :D
09:06<frosch123>they are not lost
09:06<TrueBrain>fair enough
09:07<TrueBrain>what is the update_openttd_langs script doing again?
09:07<+michi_cc>TrueBrain: And BTW, you probably didn't find the regression error because you've been looking at the wrong commit :) Off-by-one in the first commit.
09:07<frosch123>TrueBrain: if push notification is too complicated, just make a cronjob :)
09:07<TrueBrain>michi_cc: I was wondering about that, but it looks fine :P
09:08<frosch123>TrueBrain: it creates a shallow clone, and transfers the language defintions from ottd into eints
09:08<frosch123>i..e ottd source is master for language definitions, and that script updates eints
09:08<TrueBrain>ah, yes, it runs every night at 19:00 CE(S)T
09:09<TrueBrain>still impressed by the quality of work here .. no fixes for months, and no complaints either :)
09:10<TrueBrain>trying a commit now .. lets see how it looks ..
09:10<frosch123>on devzone it automaticaly created a ticket when it throws an exception
09:10<TrueBrain>smart :D
09:11<TrueBrain>we can make that for OpenTTD: auto-create-issue-on-crash :D
09:11<TrueBrain>lol, commit failed because there is no and set :D
09:12<TrueBrain>frosch123: your commit_user is .. isnt it translators? (plural)
09:12<frosch123>i took it from the contacts page
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09:13<frosch123> <- i never validated it :)
09:13<TrueBrain>its plural in the git log :)
09:13<TrueBrain>yeah .. translator is for questions
09:13<TrueBrain>translators is for the group
09:13<TrueBrain>the commit message no longer mentions eints; intentional?
09:13<frosch123>i had to adjust it for the commit-hook :)
09:14<TrueBrain>that is just the first word :)
09:14<frosch123>anyway, you can change both at the top of the script
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09:14<TrueBrain>the first I did, but the commit message is a bit up to you ofc :)
09:15<frosch123>Alberth: do you want explicit advertisement for eints? :)
09:15<@Alberth>what does that mean?
09:15<TrueBrain>btw, I somehow dislike: Update: Translations. I rather have: Update: translations (lowercase t)
09:16<TrueBrain>Alberth: eints commits used to read: -Update from eints: ...
09:16<TrueBrain>it mentioned it came from eints
09:16<@Alberth>oh, don't care about that
09:16<frosch123>now it is "Update: Translations"
09:16<TrueBrain>now it is "Update: translations"
09:16<TrueBrain>fuck that capital T :P
09:17<frosch123>"Update: Translations from eints"?
09:18<TrueBrain>without capital T, sure :)
09:18<TrueBrain>Update: translations (from eints)?
09:18<TrueBrain>Update: translations (via eints)?
09:18<frosch123>no parentheses
09:18<frosch123>via/from i don'T care
09:18<TrueBrain>what is corerct english? :D
09:19<TrueBrain>translations, brought to you by the wonderful system called eints!
09:19<@Alberth>+1! :D
09:19<@Alberth>couldn't find the right wording for it
09:19<peter1138>Both work. The translations are from eints, but technically it's the translaters doing them, via eints.
09:19<andythenorth>does anybody understand this? o_O
09:20<frosch123>andythenorth: i had a tool for that, but never finished it
09:20<TrueBrain>Update: translations from eints
09:20<TrueBrain>for now this will have to do :)
09:20<andythenorth>frosch123: :P
09:20<@Alberth>Updated translations from eints ?
09:20<andythenorth>I did degree level engineering maths, but I can't work out the simple arithemtic
09:21<@Alberth>oh, not good commit style
09:21<TrueBrain>owh, commit style also says capital after :
09:21<TrueBrain>it is not the start of a new sentence ffs :P
09:21<frosch123>andythenorth: anyway, set retire_early to some percentage of the engine-livetime
09:22<andythenorth>well pikka gave me some numbers
09:22<andythenorth>and they don't work
09:22<andythenorth>and previously eddi gave me numbers
09:22<andythenorth>and they don't work
09:22<frosch123>andythenorth: that way all freshly purchased engines have full reliability, but the very last ones degrade at the end of their lifetime
09:22<andythenorth>reliability I couldn't care less tbh :)
09:22<andythenorth>I need to remove the vehicle from purchase list reliably
09:22<andythenorth>allowing that replacement is random(17)
09:23<andythenorth>which is hard to handle
09:23<andythenorth>in a static property
09:23<frosch123>TrueBrain: commit checker only checks for space after :, not for capital
09:23<TrueBrain>yeah, but the wiki is clear about the capital there :)
09:23<frosch123>i always put a capital there
09:24<TrueBrain>okay .. so that leaves me figuring out how/when to update, and how to make sure it can write
09:24<TrueBrain>you silly :P :D
09:24<frosch123>rb switched at some pointer from uppercase to lowercase, which annoyed me when writing the changelog
09:24<TrueBrain>just pick one, and stick with it :)
09:24<frosch123>changelog has all uppercase
09:24<TrueBrain>for now, I think I will just make him update every hour or so
09:26<TrueBrain>15 * * * *
09:26<TrueBrain>is when eints update from git
09:26<TrueBrain>the to-git is harder to test without a change
09:26<TrueBrain>so I need a change! :D
09:26<TrueBrain>(a valid one)
09:27<TrueBrain>frosch123: I assume it just does a push?
09:27<TrueBrain>(not a forced one)
09:27<frosch123>also, i pushed the commit-message changes, so you can get rid of the modifies
09:30<TrueBrain>okay .. this should basically "just work"
09:31<TrueBrain>disabled the cron for now, so I can test it out when I am active
09:31<TrueBrain>instead of it happening by acceident :)
09:33<andythenorth>eh it just doesn't work
09:33<andythenorth>oops, more 'it'
09:34<andythenorth>a vehicle introduced in 1915, with model life of 44 should retire in 1959
09:34<andythenorth>it retires in 1963
09:35<andythenorth>the docs are wrong
09:35*andythenorth has to read src :|
09:37<TrueBrain>frosch123: tnx a lot, this all seems to work nicely :)
09:37<TrueBrain>frosch123: can you look at the pull request? It seems good/complete to me
09:38<andythenorth> e->duration_phase_2 = GB(r, 5, 4) + ei->base_life * 12 - 96;
09:39<andythenorth>r seems to be random bits
09:39<andythenorth>is the length of phase 2 randomised?
09:40<andythenorth>maybe I wait Eddi, you are all busy with more important stuff
09:40<andythenorth>maybe I have to account for phase 1 as well
09:44<andythenorth>src so much better than docs :)
09:44*andythenorth could probably help fix that :P
09:47<andythenorth>hmm nope, still broken
09:48<@Alberth>4 bits, starting at bit 5 ?
09:49<@Alberth>@calc 96.0/12
09:49<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 8
09:50<andythenorth>so it's base_life - 8 + random(8)
09:50<@Alberth>so, 'base_life' years, minus 8 year, +/- 8 months
09:50<@Alberth>oh, sorry, + 0..16 months
09:50<andythenorth>trying to retire vehicles is ~ waste of time imho
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09:51<andythenorth>the only safe way to do it is leave them around for a very long time
09:51<andythenorth>in which case, why both?
09:51<@Alberth>just make base_life long enough :)
09:51<andythenorth>then they don't disappear from buy menu for a very long time
09:51<andythenorth>seems pointless :)
09:51<andythenorth>doesn't help the player at all
09:52<@Alberth>I always hide vehicles that have become obsolete
09:52<andythenorth>that hide button is very helpful
09:53<@Alberth>just make it equal to the time until the next vehicle?
09:53<@Alberth>or +1 year extra
09:53<andythenorth>I added 1 for safety
09:53<andythenorth>and some other offsets 'for safety'
09:54<@Alberth>if you don't want retirement, enable 'never expires' :)
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09:55<@Alberth>the alternative is the V approach, set it to 255 years :)
09:57<andythenorth>maybe I should have left this open :P
09:57<TrueBrain>NO! BAD andythenorth! NO! No takebacks! BAD! :)
09:57<TrueBrain><3 :)
09:57<frosch123>TrueBrain: readme looks good
09:58<frosch123>some stuff is always outdated, but from a markdown point of view i like it
09:58<TrueBrain>okay; I will take it up with him to get his PR mergeable :)
09:59<frosch123>i would like if the commit would contain a "git mv readme"
09:59<frosch123>so the history is kept
09:59<TrueBrain>how wouldnt it otherwise?
09:59<TrueBrain>owh, euh, I see what you mean
09:59<TrueBrain>git figures these things mostly out himself
09:59<TrueBrain>git mv rarely really does anything :P
09:59<TrueBrain>git rm and git add has the same result :P
10:00<TrueBrain>but yeah, lets see if we can get the author do just that :)
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10:05<TrueBrain>frosch123: these are the moments I wish I could just bypass the commit-message check and squash the whole commit; take the git complexity away from the author .. but I can see that go wrong real quick in other situations, so I tried to ask the author :D
10:06<frosch123>funnily you can break the rules by entering a bad message when squashing :p
10:06<TrueBrain>frosch123: yup :D
10:06<TrueBrain>andythenorth: we need CONTRIBUTION :P
10:06<TrueBrain>agentw4b: your issue report is way too short :(
10:10<TrueBrain>basically, just repeating the title is rarely a good bug report :)
10:10<TrueBrain>what version are you running, do you have an example snippet, what did you do, what did you expect, screenshot, anything more basically :)
10:10<TrueBrain>help us help you
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10:39<_dp_>yay for github xD
10:39<_dp_>I'll do PRs for my patches someday so no need to bother with those I guess
10:45<_dp_>what's the point of "good first issue" on a patch?
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10:48<frosch123>the hope is that someone else does the work :)
10:49<frosch123>oh, on a patch... no idea
10:51<_dp_>well, I guess it's a good first issue to learn how to do PR xD
10:56<andythenorth>forgot the game has level crossings :P
11:01<TrueBrain>I put some good-first-issues on very small existing patches
11:01<TrueBrain>that someone needs to pickup and make a PR out of :)
11:01<TrueBrain>frosch123: what prefix for the README stuff?
11:01<TrueBrain>(in commit message)
11:01<TrueBrain>Doc I guess?
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11:03<tyteen4a03>Are there any plans to bring 64bit builds to osx?
11:05<TrueBrain>good question; we are cross compiling for OSX, which is sub-optimal
11:05<frosch123>Doc, Update, Change, all fine
11:05<TrueBrain>hopefully we can get it to work, but .....
11:05<TrueBrain>frosch123: k k :) Tnx
11:05<TrueBrain>tyteen4a03: so if you have any experience with cross compiling and Docker :D
11:05<tyteen4a03>I have experience in docker but not for cross-compliation unfortunately
11:07<TrueBrain>so yeah .. we are currently rebuilding how we produce binaries; we will try to get the 64bit going; in you can see earlier work (dockerfiles/Dockerfile-OSX). But no promises :)
11:07<andythenorth>can I switch my local compile to 64bit?
11:07<TrueBrain>you should
11:07<TrueBrain>btw, I do need the 10.12 sdk and 10.13 sdk (does 10.14 exist?)
11:08<andythenorth>10.14 not afaik
11:08<TrueBrain>I used to have a Mac so I could do that myself ... but not anymore :D
11:09<TrueBrain> , under Packaging the SDK
11:09<andythenorth>I probably have them somewhere
11:09<TrueBrain>owh, he made it possible to do it on Linux these days
11:09<TrueBrain>means I only need Xcode with those SDKs in there :)
11:10<TrueBrain>so nevermind, I can do this :D
11:10<TrueBrain>if I remember my AppleID...
11:10<TrueBrain>owh dear
11:12<TrueBrain>I wonder if you can run OSX on XenServer these days .. that would solve so much :D
11:14<TrueBrain>last time it all worked, except for the clock .. it went too quick :D
11:14<andythenorth>seems VMWare can host virtualised OS X allegedly
11:14<TrueBrain>owh well: FOOD!
11:15<_dp_>TrueBrain, btw, is it still not possible to use your compile farm for our patchpack?
11:15<andythenorth>not yet
11:15<andythenorth>TrueBrain: I considered buying us one of these :P
11:16<_dp_>I'm so fed up compiling it myself that even skipped 1.7.2 xD
11:17<_dp_>if I use your docker containers, does it at least compile for windows?
11:17<frosch123>andythenorth: TrueBrain: LordAro: Alberth: <- want to PR some changes/additions? :)
11:20<LordAro>not sure how patches/patchpacks could work through bananas
11:20<LordAro>there would have to be some sort of intermediate launcher program
11:20<frosch123>there is a details section after the summary
11:21<LordAro>i'd read all of that except the last sentence :p
11:21*andythenorth reading
11:22<andythenorth>frosch123: no changes from me
11:22<andythenorth>I wonder if we really need a moderator layer
11:22<andythenorth>but eh
11:24<frosch123>yes, kamnet :)
11:24<frosch123>someone who crawls through all stuff and assigned labels consistently
11:29<frosch123>also the option to comment may open gates to hell
11:29<andythenorth>which python framework shall we try next? o_O
11:31<_dp_>andythenorth, which have you tried?
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11:36<andythenorth>zope, pyramid, bottle, and very very briefly, django
11:39<_dp_>andythenorth, flask then :p
11:39*_dp_ absolutely loves flask
11:42<_dp_>though I almost have my own one on top of it already xD
11:43<andythenorth>that's kind of the point :P
11:46<@Alberth>I wonder about presets without versions
11:47<@Alberth>technically one may want to have some form of range of versions, but that may be too complicated
11:47<@Alberth>"major version" would be likely useful?
11:49<andythenorth>I change grfid when changing major version
11:49<andythenorth>dunno about others
11:49<@Alberth>could work too
11:49<_dp_>damn, got an unexpected problem doing PRs... I forgot C++ xD
11:50<@Alberth>but having a version for everything, and a 63 entries long grf list explodes a bit
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11:58<@Alberth>preset is now a list of grf filenames + parameter settings, it seems
11:58<@Alberth>no version whatsoever, unless you parse the filename
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12:02<frosch123>i would not think that you download multiple versions of a preset
12:02<frosch123>it's more about offering a version that matches your version of ottd
12:03<@Alberth>I mean version of grfs
12:03<frosch123>well, they have a md5sum
12:03<frosch123>you can update them in-game
12:04<@Alberth>"...usually contain updated references to the NewGRF versions." <-- if all 63 entries change regularly, the number of preset files explodes
12:04<frosch123>just that noone knows whether the parameters still work the same :)
12:06<@Alberth>so you can make a preset with some grf names and a non-existing md5sum, and in ottd you can update?
12:07<@Alberth>maybe not relevant enough
12:08<frosch123>ok, maybe only one version of preset, but the preset gives a range on the grf versions it works with
12:10<_dp_>hm, how do I add PR for an issue? just open a new one like this?
12:11<frosch123>_dp_: go to the branch of your fork
12:11<frosch123>press the "make pr" button at the top
12:12<frosch123>for an issue, just reference the issue in the commit message
12:12<_dp_>frosch123, yeah, that's what i did. mentioned in pr description though instead of commit
12:18<_dp_>oh, it checks commit messages o_O
12:18<_dp_>can I edit message on a commit somehow?
12:19<@Alberth>interactive rebase allows "rewording" of commit messages
12:20<@Alberth>if only the top commit, git ci --amend will work
12:20<@Alberth>obviously the hash changes, so anything relying on that breaks
12:21<@Alberth>"ci" == "commit"
12:22<_dp_>Alberth, yeah, now it tries to merge...
12:23<_dp_>guess I'll just have to close that request and create a new one
12:23<LordAro>learn to rebase
12:24<@Alberth>merge? rebase exists in 2 flavours
12:24<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> so why is model life broken then Eddi|zuHause? :( <-- what excatly is your problem?
12:26<Eddi|zuHause>model life is a bit weird
12:26<Eddi|zuHause>because there's a phase 1, phase 2 and phase 3 which add some random offsets
12:26<@Alberth>no need to close the request, just force-push an update
12:27<@Alberth>after you're done and happy :)
12:28<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: it was the random offsets causing problems
12:29<andythenorth>it's non-obvious that one has to account for phase 1 as well
12:29<andythenorth>and there seems to be a need to add 1 year for luck
12:29<andythenorth>I did read ottd src in the end, much clearer there
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>i did have some magic number in CETS for exactly this problem
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>i never really tested it though
12:30<andythenorth>you did, but when I tried it in Squid it didn't work for me
12:30<andythenorth>pikka gave me a number also that didn't work :)
12:30<andythenorth>I did the maths with paper + pencil in the end :P
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12:32<Eddi|zuHause>i think the number in CETS i just pulled out of thin air with the intention to properly test it one day and adjust it, but i never did
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12:33<TrueBrain>frosch123: seems the commit-checker has issues with utf-8 :D
12:33<_dp_>where can I find a list of sections to use in commit message?
12:33<_dp_>: ([<section])? <Details>'
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>there was a link posted a few days ago
12:34<TrueBrain>_dp_: anything, basically. Not always needed too
12:35<TrueBrain>most common it is used for stuff like NoAI, OSX, ..
12:35<TrueBrain>frosch123: would you mind taking a look at why 6725 fails on the commit checker exactly?
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12:36<frosch123>commit-checker only allows ascii
12:36<TrueBrain>frosch123: check-diff too
12:36<Eddi|zuHause>"Codechange, Cleanup" <-- i'd say "Codechange" is for things like refactoring, and "Cleanup" is for things like codestyle
12:36<TrueBrain>which is a bit odd, given we said source files can ben UTF-8 :)
12:37<@Alberth>they can?
12:37<@Alberth>c++ allows that nowadays?
12:37<TrueBrain>commentts etc
12:37<TrueBrain>but editorconfig says it can be utf-8 :D
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>do we really want that?
12:37<frosch123>hmm, anyway, that's not the error it is supposed to give
12:37<TrueBrain>in this case, README :)
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>for strings we have langfiles
12:38<frosch123>TrueBrain: we do english, so what special chars are there?
12:38<frosch123>also source has always been ascii with \u escapes
12:38<@Alberth>you get loads of problems with file encoding
12:38<TrueBrain>I dunno; it was asked when owen added editorconfig and the answer was a clear: utf-8 :)
12:38<TrueBrain>so something went wrong in that communication :D
12:38<frosch123>oi, though maybe i barfed on language files :p
12:38<TrueBrain>either way, README needs utf-8, as it has peoples name in it :)
12:38<frosch123>oi, people names :)
12:39<frosch123>yes, i'll change it to source files only
12:39<TrueBrain>thank you :)
12:39<TrueBrain>(and we will find many more small issues over time :D)
12:40<LordAro>pretty sure C++ doesn't have any ascii related restrictions
12:40<TrueBrain>frosch123: also means we have to update .editorconfig to reflect that btw :)
12:42<frosch123>there was no option for ascii
12:42<frosch123>not sure whether i complained loud about that
12:43<LordAro>i see no reason to disallow non-ascii, tbh
12:43<LordAro>not in the checker, anyway
12:46<_dp_>It's kind of weird to have commit checker on PR considering it would likely be squashed on merging anyway
12:46<_dp_>message format is pointless if it's just a history of fixing same issue
12:46<@Alberth>i'd hope it doesnt
12:47<@Alberth>having many small commits helps a lot in figuring out what the heck was done
12:50<TrueBrain>damn, you work fast
12:51<frosch123>it's the third time i rename the "checktabs" variable :p
12:51<TrueBrain>yup :D
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12:53<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: i think it's still a bit open whether the policy will be to "rebase" or to "squash" on merge, but the tendency was towards "rebase"
12:54<frosch123>Alberth: c++11 added utf-8/16/32 literals for strings and (wide) characters
12:54<frosch123>funnily c++17 added a utf-8 literal for regular characters
12:54<frosch123>which is essentially an ascii check
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>you're kind of in trouble when trying to fit a non-ascii utf8 character into a char variable :p
12:56<TrueBrain>frosch123: just as a reminder, if you allow multiple versions of a BaNaNaS uploaded entry, the ToS also needs changing; explicit it was added that this is not allowed, because a few (count: 2) didnt want that for their newgrfs
12:56<@Alberth>you may be lucky to have a weird processor, or a compiler with unsigned characters
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>like you're trying to fit a dangling multiform blob through a square hole
12:57<frosch123>TrueBrain: yes, but i consider that only as a matter of data migration and defaults
12:57<TrueBrain>an updated ToS means people have to re-accept it :)
12:57<TrueBrain>that is more what I aim at :)
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12:58<Eddi|zuHause>like an email sent out to everyone with "if you don't reply within 2 weeks we assume you agree"
12:58<frosch123>also doing PR just for updating the submodule hash is annoying
12:58<TrueBrain>no; that is very very very very wrong Eddi|zuHause
12:59<frosch123>my intention is to allow configuring a project like it was before
12:59<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, hm, ok. I guess I like squashing more
12:59<frosch123>and default migrated items to that
12:59<TrueBrain>the details we can work out fine :) I just wanted to make you aware it is against the current ToS :)
13:00<frosch123>yes :)
13:00<TrueBrain>(and to be clear, I am not against changing it :) )
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: squashing might be a option for smaller things, but if you're getting to the scale of NRT or cargodist or something, you probably don't want squash
13:01<TrueBrain>frosch123: your overview mostly describes what is changing; not what is currently offered. Possibly it is good to make a total picture, not the diff? :)
13:01-!-Guest39 is now known as Brainzman
13:01<frosch123>also i arrived at a state where i randomly try to use "svn pull", "hg pull" and "git update" :p
13:02<frosch123>TrueBrain: yep
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: edit your prompt so it says what kind of repo you're in right now?
13:02<peter1138>Openttd was the last thing I used svn for.
13:02<frosch123>i have svn at work, and that won't change for years
13:03<TrueBrain>frosch123: looks nice, BaNaNaS2 :)
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: well you could use git locally and nobody will ever notice :p
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: alternatively, just alias svn/hg/git to a script that checks what repo you are in, and does The Right Thing (tm)
13:05<peter1138>TrueBrain, damn, this reviewing PR things is awesome.
13:05<TrueBrain>much better than writing in a bug ticket, not? :D
13:05<peter1138>I'd probably have not looked at the patch before :p
13:05<TrueBrain>ty frosch123 :)
13:06<peter1138>I had svn at work but switched to git years ago, cos... well, nobody else was using it.
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>i was at the point where i could decide for myself what i use, and after trying a bit i decided for hg, because it has a better GUI on windows
13:08<TrueBrain>frosch123: and it picked up trailing whitespaces :D \o/ nice!
13:17<frosch123>TrueBrain: anyway, main thing why i wrote that thing today was to point out, that i think bananas2 should be used to offer patchpacks
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13:17<TrueBrain>go big or go home :)
13:18<TrueBrain>I like you too can write a lot of text :D
13:18<andythenorth>so we distribute binaries via bananas? o_O
13:18<TrueBrain>that is the next step
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>something in me says you shouldn't offer binary code from external sources
13:18<andythenorth>if we're doing ponies, can I distribute unreleased grfs via bananas?
13:18<frosch123>both is on the list
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>it's a disaster waiting to happen
13:18<__ln__>*both are
13:19<frosch123>oh, and there won't be a spell checker role
13:19<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause how else can I get a coin miner? :P
13:19<TrueBrain>frosch123: I think it is a sensible step, so yeah
13:19<TrueBrain>frosch123: honestly, I initial read it that you can offer grfs that only work in patchpacks :)
13:19<TrueBrain>but this makes a lot more sense tbh :)
13:20<TrueBrain>I emailed AWS again with my request for sponsor .. this time to yet another address
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>also, only way i can see bananas offering platform-independent "binary mods" will be if we port the game to mono/.net or java
13:21<TrueBrain>frosch123: also gives some room to fix mirroring a bit better .. currently the mixing of 2 sources is a bit iffy
13:21<@Alberth>lots of stuff runs at the jvm Eddi :p
13:22<LordAro>some sort of central download service sounds reasonable, but i'm pretty sure it shouldn't be integrated with "bananas"
13:22<LordAro>the code for it would have to be almost entirely separate anyway
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>also, the game should be better split into a "core" and a "gameplay" module, so patchpacks effectively only have to replace the gameplay section, and the core is basically just reduced to a launcher
13:22<TrueBrain>I think you mistake what BaNaNaS is LordAro :)
13:23<TrueBrain>BaNaNaS is, by every definition, a download service; it just has some meta data :)
13:23<TrueBrain>and all custom
13:24<TrueBrain>@calc 4 / 1053
13:24<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 0.00379867046534
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13:24<TrueBrain>lol .. 99.7% is downloaded over http :)
13:25<TrueBrain>frosch123: mostly I am really happy with NewGRF presets
13:25<TrueBrain>I remember I was bitching about that years ago :P
13:25<frosch123>ottd also downloads via http
13:26<LordAro>andythenorth: TrueBrain: ^
13:27<TrueBrain>LordAro: I already did my 2 cents :)
13:27<LordAro>well you can keep doing it :p
13:27<LordAro>and so can everyone else
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13:32<TrueBrain>I just tried to see how much OpenTTD would cost if we run it on AWS .. it tells me 1100 dollar per month ..
13:33<TrueBrain>storage is only 10 dollar a month
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13:37<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, it's more like "core" and "launcher" then, hardly any patchpack is limited to just "gameplay"
13:39<andythenorth>AWS scales up fast
13:39<andythenorth>it's ok if you only use spot instances
13:39<TrueBrain>they cost 25 euro per 1mbit/s
13:39<andythenorth>then costs do some kind of hockey stick curve
13:39<TrueBrain>that is a price I havent seen in a long time :)
13:39<TrueBrain>I understand where the price comes from .. but damn
13:39<TrueBrain>OpenTTD uses 10+ mbit/s 24/7 ..
13:40<TrueBrain>well, this is only the cost of pushing the bytes to our players :)
13:41<TrueBrain>pushing 4 TB doesnt sound like a lot, but for a CDN it clearly is not cheap :)
13:41<TrueBrain>so happy with the mirrors we have :)
13:46<LordAro>ooi, when was the last time someone used ICC to compile OTTD?
13:46<TrueBrain>when was it you tried that last?
13:46<LordAro>well i've never tried it
13:46<TrueBrain>so there you go
13:47<LordAro>don't you have to pay lots of money for ICC?
13:47<TrueBrain>is ICC still a thing?
13:48<LordAro>ICC 18 appears to largely support C++17
13:50<LordAro>oh no, apparently you can get it free for OSS purposes
13:50<TrueBrain>there you go :)
13:50<TrueBrain>they also only do that for Linux :P
13:51<TrueBrain>you do need to register :)
13:52<TrueBrain>invalid password format
13:52<TrueBrain>without telling what the format is
13:52<TrueBrain>at least one special character
13:52<TrueBrain>no more than 15
13:53<TrueBrain>the restriction of 15 is ... because you are not hashing it?!
13:53<TrueBrain>for a hash?!
13:53<TrueBrain>I always worry about such restrictions .. seems they dont know what they are doing
13:54<TrueBrain>no matter what I do, the password format is invalid
13:54<LordAro>well, i've registered
13:54<LordAro>for some reason
13:55<TrueBrain>14 characters!
13:55<TrueBrain>not 15 .. 14!
13:55<LordAro>@calc 14*13*12*11*10*9*8*7*6*5*4*3*2*1
13:55<@DorpsGek>LordAro: 87178291200
13:55<TrueBrain>2 business days .. right
13:57<TrueBrain>"This is to inform you that $15,073.92 has been deposited into your bank account this morning."
14:03<peter1138>Hmm, we're up to 21 forks now. Nearly half-way to what the old repo had.
14:04<TrueBrain>GitHub just replied; we were not the only one with this issue, and they have no clue yet what is causing it
14:06<TrueBrain>but it seems to me at least what didnt work friday, works fine now, so meh :)
14:06<TrueBrain>having a workaround is half the work :)
14:08<_dp_>there is a special place in hell for people who do restrictions on passwords
14:08<TrueBrain>Wolf01 had a nice link about TMobile Austria and their idea of security
14:09<TrueBrain>there are worse ways of doing it
14:09<TrueBrain>(they could see the first 4 letters of your password)
14:09*_dp_ sick tired of constantly using password restore on every stupid site
14:11<peter1138>Well, some restrictions are necessary.
14:11<TrueBrain>at neast N is very much required, yes :)
14:12<TrueBrain>neast, yes, neast
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14:15<_dp_>I hate sites that have N > 6 since it's more than my garbage password has :p
14:15*peter1138 wonders if _dp_ needs introducing to password managers.
14:16<_dp_>and many sites don't deserve any better password :p
14:17<_dp_>I don't rly like password managers, they are a unsafe for anything that matters and an extra hassle for anything that doesn't
14:18<peter1138>Unsafe. Riiiight.
14:18<TrueBrain>this should be interesting: why do you think they are unsafe? :)
14:20<frosch123>there are certainly some that are unsafe :)
14:21-!-Thedarkb-X40 [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
14:21<_dp_>coz they still store passwords in some way or other
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14:21<TrueBrain>and you think you cannot store passwords in a safe matter?
14:22<TrueBrain>I can give you my password manager database, and not even with a milion dollars you will get any passwords out of it
14:22<andythenorth>maybe with $5m
14:22<andythenorth>how many GPUs can I buy?
14:22<TrueBrain>so I am not sure if you base your conclusion on the right facts :)
14:22<andythenorth>they're not safe
14:22<TrueBrain>no GPU in the world would help you :)
14:22<andythenorth>I doubt it
14:22<andythenorth>but it's relative risk
14:22<TrueBrain>for brute forcing you need to know what you are looking for :)
14:22<TrueBrain>finding data in a binary blob is difficult :)
14:22<andythenorth>is it safer than post-it on your screen?
14:23<Thedarkb-X40>Turns out ctrl+R inverts text on HexChat.
14:23<andythenorth>is it safer than 'Dropbox/my_stuff/passwords.txt'
14:23<TrueBrain>but given, if you know some of the data in it, you can brute force it :)
14:23<andythenorth>is it safer than using things like 'password1'
14:23<_dp_>TrueBrain, what is it encrypted with, master password?
14:24<TrueBrain>it has a master password yes; but the file itself is AES encrypted
14:24<_dp_>TrueBrain, then you only have one master password for everything instead of multiple passwords
14:25<TrueBrain>yup; I only have to remember one complex password :)
14:25<TrueBrain>but you said that password manager were UNSAFE
14:25<TrueBrain>about which I wonder how you got to that conclusion
14:25<_dp_>TrueBrain, also what happens if you loose your db? I know, backups, but what if you need a password when you cant access your db?
14:26<TrueBrain>so you now switched to the usability and social aspect
14:26<TrueBrain>which is fine; but it has nothing to do with the password manager being unsafe
14:26<TrueBrain>but my phone is a fine place to carry such information with me
14:26<TrueBrain>always there, never lost
14:26<_dp_>TrueBrain, ok, safety, what happens if your master password gots keylogged?
14:26<TrueBrain>if my machine is keylogged, my masterpassword is the least of my worries :)
14:27<_dp_>TrueBrain, if you machine is safe from keyloggers you can as well do passwords.txt :p
14:27<TrueBrain>huh? That is a serious weird jump there
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14:27<TrueBrain>I cannot even begin to tell you why those two have nothing in common ... :o
14:28<TrueBrain>and just to be clear, I have no issues with you doing your passwords your way; just don't be illinformed thinking password managers are unsafe
14:28<LordAro>well if you switch keyloggers with "anyone else ever looking at anything on your computer"
14:28<TrueBrain>than NOTHING MATTERS :D
14:28<andythenorth>repeat after andythenorth: "infosec is a triangle, balancing three kinds of risk"
14:28<andythenorth>well all the computers are owned anyway
14:29<andythenorth>as chips are made overseas
14:29<andythenorth>stands to reason eh?
14:29<TrueBrain>not all chips :)
14:29<_dp_>TrueBrain, well, I can agree they are somewhat safe if that makes you happy :p
14:29<_dp_>Still like my way more
14:29<LordAro>can't hack brains
14:29<TrueBrain>and that is fine :) Just understand how keymanager store their database is more secure than most websites are :D
14:29<andythenorth>TrueBrain: I was once asked to verify that we had full chain of custody on hosting hardware, all way from production source
14:30<andythenorth>for infosec part of procurement
14:30<andythenorth>including all sub-assemblies and components
14:30<andythenorth>it was a pass/fail thing, not a risk score
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14:31<TrueBrain>but, just for shit and giggles:; in case you think keyloggers are the issue :D
14:32<TrueBrain>andythenorth: with the GDPR coming, we have been part of risk-assesement of all systems in use .. I imagine your answer was as red :)
14:32<andythenorth>we are not bad
14:33<andythenorth>we have what we consider legacy systems, but they aren't legacy by enterprise standards
14:33<andythenorth>and we designed with privacy principles in mind from start
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14:34<LordAro>michi_cc: what was the issue with the RNG?
14:34<TrueBrain>yeah .. the company itself rarely is the issue :)
14:34<andythenorth>there are a few things where e.g. right to be forgotten clashes with legal oblifation of customers to be able to defend a court case
14:34<TrueBrain>more the subparts etc
14:34<andythenorth>but mostly we are fine, and we are data processor not owner
14:34<andythenorth>so it's not too bad
14:34<TrueBrain>andythenorth: no, that is pretty clear and not an issue; if you can show why you needed to store the data, it is fine :)
14:34<andythenorth>cookie law was a much bigger drama for us
14:35<TrueBrain>part of the company I work for, does fraud detection; and indeed, it is only a data processor. So it is easy for us. But I have seen evaluations of other companies .. owh booooyyyyyyyyy :D
14:35<TrueBrain>"right to be forgotten" for a fraud system is a bit silly, we found out :D
14:36<TrueBrain>"Yes, I just broke in your system, but now I would like you to remove my information" :D
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14:36<+michi_cc>LordAro: Off-by-one in SmallVector
14:37<TrueBrain>never really had to deal with cookie law .. my old boss never wanted to hear about it
14:37<andythenorth>I wish I crashed ottd less
14:39<TrueBrain>and I wish I could find a powercord I have been looking for the last week
14:40<andythenorth>@seen supermop
14:40<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: supermop was last seen in #openttd 5 days, 4 hours, 28 minutes, and 36 seconds ago: <supermop> should look good out of the box
14:40<TrueBrain>I hope you werent talking about cats :D
14:40<_dp_>Even if someone sees me typing my password it would still be quite hard for him to repeat :p
14:41<_dp_>I type fast, have custom layout and never give my keyboard to anyone :p
14:41<TrueBrain>the URL I linked above, shows you dont need to see someone typing .. you can just monitor the data from a distance :P
14:42<TrueBrain>owh, and screens .... SCREENS .. they emit so much more data ..
14:42<TrueBrain>if that type of security is your worry .. :D
14:42<andythenorth>listening through windows
14:42<andythenorth>OR EVEN READING YOUR MIND
14:42<andythenorth>get a hat
14:42<TrueBrain>tempest attacks on your brain :D
14:42<TrueBrain>I will ask tomorrow if they tried that :)
14:44<andythenorth>or you can just drive-by me with a fake flash player update and a password prompt
14:44<andythenorth>remarkably common
14:44<_dp_>I'm mostly concerned about usual stuff like cameras, wifis, viruses
14:44<_dp_>physical attacks are a bit too exotic to worry about
14:44<andythenorth>have you glued your USB ports closed?
14:45<TrueBrain>physical attacks exotic?
14:45<TrueBrain>isnt that the #1 way they get in companies?
14:45<andythenorth>I heard it was device loss + malicious employees top causes
14:45<TrueBrain>is what I would do .. fake AP, remote microphone .. just walking in and plugging in a device ..
14:46<TrueBrain>andythenorth: okay, so #2 :P
14:46<TrueBrain>I am much less worried about attacks over the internet tbh :D
14:46<_dp_>I'm a freelancer and work from home, so my usb ports are safe enough :p
14:46<TrueBrain>but yeah .. something about a balance between all factors :)
14:47<andythenorth>_dp_: but you plug in USB devices?
14:47<TrueBrain>still havent found a powercord ... if it is in none of these boxes ... did I forget to move a box or something ....
14:47<andythenorth>TrueBrain: the powercord probably has malware in anyway
14:47<TrueBrain>andythenorth: owh, those USB disks which also are a wifi, keyboard and mouse :D
14:47<TrueBrain>that was a briliant concept :)
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14:48<andythenorth>I was thinking about Bad USB and friends
14:48<TrueBrain>you plugin the USB thinking it only has storage .. and when you are away, they take over your machine :D
14:48<andythenorth>you know the 'sealed' blister packaging USB sticks come int?
14:48<_dp_>andythenorth, yes, but they are my devices
14:48<andythenorth>there's apparently a whole mini-industry of opening those packs and installing malware
14:48<andythenorth>[I have no sources]
14:49<andythenorth>or just doing at source in the factory
14:49<andythenorth>or leaving 'lost' USB sticks in car parks and cafes
14:49<TrueBrain>if you want to keep your shit safe, you dont connect it to the internet :P
14:49<andythenorth>'hey lucky me, a free USB stick'
14:49<andythenorth>USB-C adds fun
14:50<andythenorth>my powercord now has DMA, including reading the encryption keys for my disks
14:50<andythenorth>'great feature'
14:50<TrueBrain>but yes, social attacks are great :) Humans are stupid :)
14:50<andythenorth>and everyone has password1 anyway
14:50<andythenorth>my burglar alarm used to be 1234
14:51<andythenorth>it isn't any more, obvs :P
14:51<TrueBrain>now it is 6789? :D
14:51<andythenorth>it contains numbers
14:51<andythenorth>is all
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14:55<andythenorth>where is mop :P
14:56<andythenorth>I need someone who cares about 1950s-1990s British pax coaches
14:56<andythenorth>and knows about colours and stuff
15:01<FLHerne>I do ;-)
15:10<V453000>such horse
15:10<andythenorth>I need coaches for 1930 and 1960
15:11<andythenorth>I think 89 is better for 1930
15:11<V453000>I like the picture :)
15:11<andythenorth>and I should improve 90 for 1960
15:11<andythenorth>I have a height issue going on too :P
15:13<frosch123>V453000: back in europe?
15:15<frosch123>andythenorth: 1950-1990 coaches should look like
15:15<andythenorth>frosch123: :P
15:15<andythenorth>32bpp, 256 browns
15:23<andythenorth>basically, give or take realism...
15:23<andythenorth>this for 1960?
15:23<andythenorth>or this?
15:25<frosch123>round edges, and windows that can be opened
15:26<frosch123> <- too old?
15:26<andythenorth>the challenge is how many pixels I get for windows
15:26<andythenorth>maybe I should 2x it all :)
15:27<andythenorth>fortunately realism is secondary here
15:28<andythenorth>realism says do this, which is very untidy :)
15:29<peter1138>DO IT.
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15:30<V453000>frosch123: yeah
15:30<V453000>not leaving it for a while now :P
15:32<andythenorth>peter1138: you actually can do it in Horse if you mix up wagon generations :P
15:33<andythenorth>I have covered people who want this
15:33<andythenorth>as well as people like me who want a neat block train on integer lengths :P
15:41<andythenorth>train 89 windows look nice, but camera angle is now wrong eh?
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>there isn't really a defined angle
15:43<andythenorth>I've got 138 variants of these to draw, so I need to get this right before I go too far :)
15:43<FLHerne>andythenorth: I think it's the roofline that looks wrong, MkII/III have domed ends that look very distinctive compared to older stock
15:43<andythenorth>my concern is the proportion of window to body depth
15:44<andythenorth>and with a higher camera, you would notice proportionally more of the roof curve
15:44<TrueBrain>LordAro: but does this now work with ccache and llvm?
15:44<andythenorth>I also think my starting sprite is lit wrong at the tumblehome
15:44<LordAro>TrueBrain: should do
15:44<LordAro>resolves symlinks to check names only, everything else goes through the original symlink
15:44<LordAro>which ccache uses to fake a compiler
15:45<FLHerne>andythenorth: That one depends if you're looking at early Mk2s (with small sliding windows above the main ones) or Mk2d and later (air-con, so no vent windows)
15:45<TrueBrain>LordAro: if I have ccache and llvm, the CC would be /usr/lib/ccache/clang, but the realpath will be /usr/bin/ccache
15:45<TrueBrain>in result, it breaks :(
15:46<TrueBrain>basically, the realpath trick doesnt work :(
15:47<LordAro>if i knew what the format of icc --version was, i could probably make it work
15:47<andythenorth>FLHerne: they could be mk2s, mk3s, pullmans, it doesn't really matter
15:47<andythenorth>I think for 1960 they should flip to smaller windows though
15:47<TrueBrain>LordAro: in a few days we should have access :)
15:48<FLHerne>andythenorth: Well, they do look quite different
15:48<FLHerne>Air-con stock before 1970-odd would look odd
15:49<andythenorth>I assumed the windowline moved down, but it actually moved up
15:49<andythenorth>which is why I tried the train 89 style
15:49<FLHerne>It did both, I think :P
15:49<andythenorth>I think it distorts the angle though
15:50<FLHerne>Early Mk2s are from ~1966, aircon ones not until 1972 or something
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15:51<FLHerne>andythenorth: FWIW, in your Crewe pic the set isn't actually that random ;-)
15:51<andythenorth>mk1 BG, mk3, mk2f, mk2b
15:52<andythenorth>not random, but 4 types
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15:52<FLHerne>But that's because there were never any Mk2 catering vehicles or full-brakes
15:53<andythenorth>there are in horse :)
15:53<FLHerne>Well, the odd Mk3 FO is a bit random
15:53<andythenorth>as much as anything in horse is a real type
15:53<andythenorth>for some reason horse – sprites are 2 shades darker than Hog
15:53<andythenorth>that should be...adjusted :P
15:54<andythenorth>it limits the highlights
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so from what i gathered looking at the pictures you posted, there's two wagon types, one with smaller windows and the other with larger windows. you're trying to draw the one with the smaller windows?
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think there's too few pixels to accurately depict the differences in windows
15:57<andythenorth>I agree
15:57<andythenorth>but the difference can be used between generations
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>it could work in x2
15:58<peter1138>draw in x4!
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>you could draw it in x2 or x4 and try downscaling it with some good AA
15:58<peter1138>it's only 4x the number of pixels! (yes, I know)
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16:01<LordAro>TrueBrain: doesn't even work on my system currently, as clang is -> clang-6.0
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16:02<peter1138>andythenorth, why is "electrified road" an "original road type"?
16:02<peter1138>andythenorth, and non-electrified tram, for that matter.
16:03<andythenorth>just because frosch specified that
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16:04<peter1138>Hmm. I dislike providing defaults beyond what was originally there, if newgrf can provide them.
16:05<andythenorth>it's basically catenary-or-not
16:05<TrueBrain>LordAro: I found another bug in my Jenkinsfile .. I guess we both started a change which only results into more issues than we tried to solve :D
16:05<andythenorth>I am on the fence about it, but I imagine it had a rationale
16:06<LordAro>TrueBrain: eh, they're expected with CI stuff though :p
16:07<TrueBrain>as with build systems :)
16:08<TrueBrain>now battling bash an quotes ......
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16:08<TrueBrain>which is another hilarious issue
16:08<LordAro>oh no
16:09<TrueBrain>I am trying to make a variable in which 2 parameters for an application are
16:09<TrueBrain>but that seems impossible
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16:09<peter1138>andythenorth, i know it's "just road types"
16:10<LordAro>TrueBrain: i tried to trick godbolt into giving me the icc --version output, but it wouldn't let me :(
16:11<andythenorth>peter1138: if they need dropped for logical reasons, it makes no difference to players / authors
16:11<TrueBrain>BEHOLD! A proper :D
16:12<peter1138>well, unless authors come to expect it.
16:12<peter1138>electrified road is a really weird name too :p
16:14<andythenorth>one way of looking at is that it just completes the 2x2 matrix
16:14<andythenorth>otherwise it's weird that tram defaults to catenary
16:14<andythenorth>for historical reasons
16:14<andythenorth>or that could just be tidy mind problem
16:14<TrueBrain>I so hate shell scripts ... docker sees something else than echo shows ... just because spaces are handled differently ... ugh
16:15<TrueBrain>tnx glx :)
16:16<+glx>I don't know if we can self approve
16:16<TrueBrain>we cannot :)
16:16<TrueBrain>something that can be enabled, but .. it rarely results in a good quality :)
16:16<+glx>seems sane to not self approve
16:17<LordAro> > ln -s /usr/bin/gcc notclang
16:17<LordAro> > ./notclang --version
16:17<LordAro>notclang (GCC) 7.3.1 20180312
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16:21<TrueBrain>dont you just love it :)
16:22<LordAro>helpfully, clang does not use argv[0]
16:22<LordAro>no idea about icc, of course
16:26<TrueBrain>check how cmake does it :)
16:26<LordAro>i'd rather not :p
16:26<TrueBrain>mostly pretty readable tbh
16:27<TrueBrain>I tihnk it compiles a small c file
16:27<TrueBrain>and checks the resulting binary for something
16:28<LordAro> seems so
16:28<LordAro>why is cmake itself so unreadable :(
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know if i said anything previously about the matter, but i would just provide one roadtype called ROAD and one tramtype called TRAM as default
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>i find ELRL confusing as it overlaps with rail
16:30<+glx>LordAro: equivalent to autoconf for me :)
16:30<TrueBrain>seriously, why did they make shell parameters impossible
16:30<TrueBrain>I just want to pass some docker build commands ...
16:35<TrueBrain>okay, after enough "" it seems to work ......
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>if escaping is not working, you're not using enough of it :p
16:36<TrueBrain>its so insane
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16:37<andythenorth>TrueBrain: I just leave you this about feature requests btw :)
16:38<andythenorth>sad times, I link to someone's pirated copy of my own video
16:39<TrueBrain>that is sad
16:40<TrueBrain>today closed the first ticket because it contained nothing .. hope that it is not constantly like that :D
16:42<TrueBrain>To: ''
16:42<TrueBrain>Subject: RE:
16:42<TrueBrain>Need to talk to you privately. Reply for more details.
16:45<TrueBrain>bad LordAro! Sneaking shit in ... pfft :D
16:46<TrueBrain>LordAro: and while you are fixing that, please rebase :D
16:46-!-Stimrol [~Stimrol@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:46<TrueBrain>(after that, rebasing is no lnger a real requirement .. but the fix is after your parent :D)
16:47<LordAro>TrueBrain: awh, you noticed :p
16:47<TrueBrain>you are surprised I really do review? :P
16:47<TrueBrain>the problem with accepting vim statements
16:47<TrueBrain>that next commit will be nano
16:47<LordAro>but vim keeps thinking the file is cobol
16:47<TrueBrain>followed by joe
16:47<TrueBrain>and than emacs
16:47<TrueBrain>I mean .. it really never stops
16:47<andythenorth>has anyone finished yet?
16:48<andythenorth>I have to redraw 36 pax coach roofs
16:48<andythenorth>and 60 mail coach roofs
16:48<TrueBrain>priorties andythenorth :)
16:48<TrueBrain>I too have better things to do :P
16:48<andythenorth>on the other hand, it's one sprite and then PIL :P
16:48<TrueBrain>how do I open .xip files .. freaking OSX ..
16:49<andythenorth>wtf is a .xip
16:49<TrueBrain>something you have on OSX
16:49<andythenorth>zip with a signature
16:49<andythenorth>want me to open it?
16:50<andythenorth>it's xar containing gzip allegedly
16:50<TrueBrain>I was trying to extract SDKs
16:50<TrueBrain>glx: can you test PR 6727 ? :)
16:50<andythenorth>oh some shit about xip can only be opened by Apple
16:51<TrueBrain>yeah ... I might ask you after all to get me 10.12 and 10.13 SDKs :)
16:51<TrueBrain>but osxcross doesnt tell if it works
16:51<TrueBrain>so that always makes it a bit harder to ask :)
16:52<V453000>Uhm, so I released latest PURR like 4 months ago and today a guy reported to me that 8bpp version is basically borked AF :D
16:52<V453000>such development, much fast
16:53<V453000>how iz andythenorth ?
16:55<peter1138>Should I buy a new bike?
16:55<V453000>You probably already know the answer :P
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16:58<peter1138>I have a suspicion.
16:59<+glx>TrueBrain: I let you approve :)
17:00<TrueBrain>tnx glx!
17:00<+glx>as you were the one requesting changes
17:01<+glx>btw LordAro, please stop touching config.lib it forces to rebuild everything ;)
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17:04<TrueBrain>yippie, extracting Mac files on Linux
17:04<TrueBrain>I love how so many people wrote tools to do that :D
17:05<+glx>I remember using 7zip to open .dmg on windows
17:05<TrueBrain>yeah .... they changed shit again
17:05<TrueBrain>they now use 'zip'
17:05<TrueBrain>but .. WITH A TWIST
17:06<+glx>I guess 7zip will be able to do it one day
17:06<LordAro>glx: sorry :>
17:06<+glx>np :)
17:07<+glx>we all hate when everything needs to be rebuilt
17:07<LordAro>i have to do it semi-regularly at work due to a dodgy build system
17:07<LordAro>and that takes 30 minutes to rebuild with 8 cores
17:08<TrueBrain>first thing I try to do in new projets .. fix the fucking build system
17:08<andythenorth>peter1138: it's probably time
17:08<peter1138>For bed, yes.
17:08<andythenorth>and bikes
17:08<LordAro>TrueBrain: oh, it used to take 50 minutes
17:09<TrueBrain>okay .. I now see the 10.13 SDK
17:09<TrueBrain>not the 10.12 yet, but that will be similar, I guess
17:09<TrueBrain>need to find last XCode to support 10.12
17:09<TrueBrain>but that isnt the biggest issue :)
17:09<andythenorth>ok as you are wading through OS X shit I will do some more CONTRIBUTING :P
17:09<TrueBrain>I do have to extract it on a different volume .... having 0777 for all files is dodgy :D
17:10<TrueBrain>curious if osxcross works for 10.12 and 10.13
17:10<TrueBrain>as we are dropping older targets left and right, I think I am only going to support 64bit
17:10<TrueBrain>I doubt 1.9 will work on Win98 :P
17:11<+glx>I could try a no unicode build
17:11<TrueBrain>as I think we will have x14 shit before I can say LOOKATTHIS
17:11<TrueBrain>maybe mingw can still target win98
17:11<+glx>I should have a win98 VM somewhere
17:11<TrueBrain>we will see :)
17:11<TrueBrain>but for OSX I am not going to try :)
17:11<TrueBrain>andythenorth said: n and n-1
17:11<TrueBrain>so .. yeah :P
17:12<andythenorth>I did
17:12<TrueBrain>what is difficult about OSX, that their XCode contains 1 or 2 SDKs ... which supports 1 or more versions
17:12<LordAro>at what point is it acceptable to say "we'll accept PRs for this platform, but we're not supporting it ourselves" ?
17:12<TrueBrain>we always accepted patches for platforms without really supporting them
17:13<TrueBrain>as long as they are not a maintainers nightmare
17:13<TrueBrain>I mean, there is support for PSP
17:13<TrueBrain>BeOS used to work
17:13<TrueBrain>stuff like that
17:13<TrueBrain>WinCE ...
17:13<+glx>hmm I have a win98 VM but its for virtual PC and I no longer have it
17:13<TrueBrain>but all those mobile patches
17:13<TrueBrain>those are not something you want in core OpenTTD
17:13<TrueBrain>they need to do a lot of tricks to make it somewhat playable on your mobile
17:14<TrueBrain>and I do not see why people want to ... at all
17:14<TrueBrain>I think that is typical something for a patchpack
17:14<LordAro>i'm not convinced, i think a mobile (tablet) version could work really well
17:14<TrueBrain>so LordAro, it is not a matter of what we support or not .. more if the PR is in line with our current vision :)
17:14<TrueBrain>I havent seen it
17:14<TrueBrain>but for that we are Open Source .. people can surprise me :)
17:15<TrueBrain>also maybe a better addition to what I said: OpenTTD might compile fine for OSX 10.6
17:15<TrueBrain>but .. our releases we build for 10.12 and 10.13
17:15<TrueBrain>yet we do not officially support OSX
17:16<TrueBrain>(its not black, its not white! Just a LOT OF GREY)
17:16<LordAro>which is the oldest OSX that apple support?
17:17<andythenorth>they don't have a published policy afaict
17:17<TrueBrain>I am off to bed; night guys :D Nice going this week :)
17:17<andythenorth>it's usually n-2, except for critical security updates
17:17<andythenorth>bye TrueBrain
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17:34<Eddi|zuHause>wait, we support wince?
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>maybe i should install this on one of my machines :p
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>they run WEC7 on an ARMv7 processor with about 1GHz
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17:48<+glx>I think it used to work on wince, but it's probably broken now
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21:06<arahael>LordAro: That's 10.13.4, I think. :)
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---Logclosed Mon Apr 16 00:00:32 2018