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#openttd IRC Logs for 2018-07-09

---Logopened Mon Jul 09 00:00:27 2018
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04:25<TrueBrain>omg, social people, wtf is this?! :D
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04:44<Eddi|zuHause>typing 7 instead of / is such a german mistake
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05:11<TrueBrain>meh; the moment you cannot make a Docker out of your GitHubApp because it wants a C compiler to compile a dependency #nothankyou
05:12<TrueBrain>so now the question is, why doesnt it use the whl that is available ...
05:14<peter1138>Surely Germans don't make mistakes.
05:14<peter1138>And yes, o7 is deliberate.
05:23<Eddi|zuHause>well, yes, i'm assuming you don't have a keyboard where 7 and / are on the same key and thus easily swapped :p
05:24<Eddi|zuHause>i'm just mentioning it because my brain wanted to swap the two :p
05:25<TrueBrain>and you think he is the weird one ..... ;) :P
05:25<Eddi|zuHause>when did i ever think that? :p
05:28<Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> eh, why was __ln__ banned? :-O <-- what it looked like from here, __ln__ has this weird and cryptic way to express himself that gets on your nerves when you're not in the right mood/state of mind, so i guess this was the straw that broke the camel's back
05:29<TrueBrain>nice summary
05:34<peter1138>When that last happened, he left by himself :p
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05:52<TrueBrain>hmm .. I want to run 'docker build' on test, to validate the dockerfile is still valid
05:52<TrueBrain>but ... that leaves a dangling image :D
05:52<TrueBrain>which is not optimal
05:54<LordAro>not especially
06:04<TrueBrain>okay .. Travis also allows this
06:04<TrueBrain>bit dirty in my opinion, but what can you do
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06:22<TrueBrain>okay, I guess I should move this into OpenTTD space before I accidentially push stuff to master ..
06:25<TrueBrain>LordAro: if you happen to have some idle cycles, I could sure use another look at my PR :)
06:25<LordAro>TrueBrain: i'll see what i can do
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07:51<TrueBrain>okay ... so now I have a Docker that is a GitHub App .. now how am I going to run it .. mm
08:02<peter1138>Oh, I saw "cycles" and thought someone was discussing bikes ;(
08:03*andythenorth tanks
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08:21<SpComb>review my cycle
08:22<LordAro>how many wheels does it have?
08:26<TrueBrain>LordAro: I run flake8 over the code :P
08:26<TrueBrain>its in !
08:40<LordAro>TrueBrain: maybe there's an additional flake8 setting to...*
08:41<TrueBrain>I have no clue what you consider 'inconsistent', so I cannot help with that :)
08:42<TrueBrain>tnx a bunch for the comments; especially the 'diff' was nice to know :D
08:45<LordAro>TrueBrain: i mean varying usages of '' vs ""
08:46<TrueBrain>I should have " everywhere ..
08:46<LordAro>you do not :>
08:46<TrueBrain>sadly, in the Python world, that is not a coding style issue .. which I still hate
08:47<TrueBrain>only 3 places
08:47<@planetmaker>what PR do you talk about? Hi also :)
08:47<TrueBrain>owh, whole got generated with '
08:49<TrueBrain>planetmaker: OpenTTD-DorpsGek under my user
08:49<LordAro> looks like a thing
08:50<TrueBrain>LordAro: problem is, there can be very good reasons to use one for the other, etc
08:50<TrueBrain>validating it .. is .. nasty
08:51<TrueBrain>than they do take those cases into account too
08:51<TrueBrain>guess I can just install it, and see how long it takes before it annoys the fuck out of me
08:55<TrueBrain>there we go
08:58<TrueBrain>I really do miss you can not see the diff on GitHub .. I would love to see that .. well, force pushing is evil I guess
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09:05<TrueBrain>okay, so now to crack this egg on deployments ...
09:06<TrueBrain>I have to start this docker somewhere .. that is the easy part
09:06<TrueBrain>redirect nginx so it knows where to find it .. bit more difficult ..
09:06<TrueBrain>but mostly I want that when I push a new version to master, staging is automatically updated
09:06<TrueBrain>so I need somewhere to build the image
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09:11<Eddi|zuHause>i find myself frequently starting strings with ' and ending with " or the other way around
09:12<Eddi|zuHause>and what's worse, i use this other language where "" vs. '' means char-string vs wchar-string
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>and i never remember which is which
09:15<FLHerne>TrueBrain: PEP-8 does say "Pick a rule and stick to it.", so it's a coding-style issue if they're completely arbitrary
09:20<TrueBrain>coding style requires consensus .. getting a consensus on ' vs " is .. ugly :P
09:20<TrueBrain>most projects I know just leave it to who-ever-is-writing-it :)
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>there's no difference small enough that it couldn't spark a religious war
09:21<FLHerne>FWIW, my preferred rule is to use "" for actual string values that get printed/written or compared to things that are, and '' for stringly-typed things like fake enums, regexes, format codes
09:21<TrueBrain>that sounds rather arbitrair :D
09:21<andythenorth>my preference is to overlook it
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>i honestly never cared
09:22<andythenorth>I use '' because it doesn't require shift key
09:22<andythenorth>unless it contains ' then I use ""
09:22<andythenorth>it's a fairly stupid rule tho
09:22<TrueBrain>I always have a good laugh with myself ... as I constantly mix them .. I seem to completely fail in picking one or the other :D
09:22<andythenorth>it's because you know it doesn't affect real quality
09:22<TrueBrain>which annoys the OCDer in me :D
09:22<andythenorth>many small things do affect real quality
09:23<andythenorth>this one isn't one of them
09:24<TrueBrain>LordAro: I also now really tested it .. :P (it didnt work before ! I failed to test my own work .. how horrible!)
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>both ' and " use shift for me, but one is right-handed and the other left-handed
09:25<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: So you use either one depending on the last key you pressed? ;-)
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>swapping dominant hand mid-typing might be the reason why i always confuse them :p
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: yeah, maybe. i never consciently followed it
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10:06<LordAro>TrueBrain: haha
10:06<LordAro>i personally like to use "" for strings and '' for chars, but that's the C coming out :)
10:07<LordAro>but i will of course conform to whatever style is already in place
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10:11<@Alberth>hi hi
10:13<LordAro>an interesting bug report
10:13<LordAro>i suspect the answer is "you're still playing 1.8.0, nothing has changed"
10:13<LordAro>"it's your system"
10:17<nielsm>I suspect it might have to do with swapping in some way
10:18<LordAro>that too
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10:35<@Alberth>4GB sounds like practically nothing for todays windows, doesn't it?
10:37<peter1138>Blame Spectre :p
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>"Baidu Antivirus" sounds like an even worse attempt at getting government spyware backdoors on computers as "Kaspersky" </conspiracy>
10:42<nielsm>having AV installed at all might be as much a problem as anything else
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10:45<nielsm>slightly tempted to backport the fps-meter to 1.8 to make a "diagnostic build"
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10:51<Eddi|zuHause>not sure that does tell you much if the system is swap-locked
10:52<Eddi|zuHause>interesting values there would be size of the uncompressed savegame (x2 for saving), and sprite cache usage
10:53<Eddi|zuHause>my first thought would go to 32bpp newgrfs
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11:05<@Alberth>I am guessing another application is running
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>ah steam... "Cost of individual products: 40€" "Cost of bundle: 120€"
11:10<nielsm>but anyway no, not seeing any issues when I load that savegame
11:11<nielsm>(in a 32 bit debug build on fps-meter branch)
11:12<nielsm>but then, my system is rather different, more modern CPU, 24 GB ram, 64 bit win10
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11:15<nielsm>can run at 10x speed when I move the view somewhere uninteresting
11:16<nielsm>but yeah it uses around 80-140 MB private memory
11:16<nielsm>and when not in ffwd mode counts as 0% cpu
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11:18<nielsm>oh neat! his train network deadlocks :D
11:20<nielsm>some time before 1982 if you just let it run
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11:27<nielsm>mostly because of an all too tight station construction, merging before branching
11:28<nielsm>and too many signals (and pre-signals instead of path signals)
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11:35<Eddi|zuHause>i've had MiniIN games that severely slowed down whenever a deadlock occured, with the old PBS
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11:37<@Alberth>people seem to just love signs, the more the better :)
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13:10<Arveen2>damn, Factorio is in Steams best selling games list for 2018
13:11<SpComb>not bad for a game released on steam in 2016
13:12<SpComb>> As of July 2017, the team consists of 15 members
13:17<frosch123>hmm, i am used to popular media reporting stuff that was written in technical media months ago. but when the subtitle says "manufacturer fixes swiftly" it gets even more weird
13:18<SpComb>> Improved Factorio link time in Visual studio. This was done by Rseding91, who provided the visual studio guys with Factorio sources and kept bothering them until they tested that and improved C++ link time in the 15.5 Visual studio release. The final release of Factorio with all optimisations and link time code generation took 45 minutes to compile and link, and now it takes 3.5 minutes. This sped up our release time quite a bit.
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13:19<frosch123>in this case spcomb acts as the popular media
13:23<TrueBrain>as long as it isn't fake news :P
13:23<Wolf01>OpenTTD 2.0 release date will be...
13:23<andythenorth>What's in 3.0?
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13:24<TrueBrain>let me rebrand 1.8 to 3.0
13:24<frosch123>Wolf01: 2020-04-01
13:25<Wolf01>What if we switch major and minor versions?
13:25<Wolf01>OpenTTD 8.1.0
13:25<andythenorth>what if we just release 7899213214
13:26<Wolf01>What if we merge NRT?
13:26<TrueBrain>and the next one will be 7988123213
13:26<andythenorth>2.0 is when we can break all newgrf, eright?
13:26<andythenorth>Wolf01: imagine if we did
13:27<Wolf01>BTW, I need to sort 2kg of lego technic I purchased this weekend
13:28<+glx>just use openttd 10 like others ;)
13:28<andythenorth>Wolf01: mostly I try to sell Lego now :P
13:29<nielsm>allow GS to implement anything newgrf can (and more)
13:29<nielsm>then allow GS to download sprites to the client
13:29<andythenorth>can we also all smoke crack? :)
13:29<nielsm>and bam you have a cloud-driven OTTD!
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>nielsm: first you must reimplement GS in a modern language
13:31<TrueBrain>Squirrel is very modern
13:31<nielsm>let's just import node
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13:31<TrueBrain>(compared to Fortran, for example)
13:32<frosch123>you can identify modern languages, when they can compute "[] + {}"
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13:41<Wolf01>Use brainfuck
13:42<@Alberth>swedish chef
13:45<@Alberth>or a visual language like Piet
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13:57<frosch123>i saw that one before. but i can only imagine it being linked from here :)
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14:04<@Alberth>likely :)
14:06<nielsm>really just make it a lisp, very simple, anyone can learn the syntax in a few minutes
14:13<nielsm> <-- anyone with more experience who can spot points of interest in his config?
14:14<frosch123>ottd can draw in different video modes
14:14<frosch123>if ottd draws in 8bpp, the os does the conversion to 32bpp
14:14<frosch123>it ottd draws in 32bpp, it does it itself
14:15<nielsm>where is the opengl renderer with pixelshaders for pallette conversion and animation?
14:15<frosch123>i think there are at least two
14:15<FLHerne>nielsm: Very short CDist recalc_interval can't help
14:16<FLHerne>I wouldn't think it would hurt /that/ much though
14:19<FLHerne>`scenario_developer = true` is suspicious, has the affected savegame had its grfs hacked about?
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14:24<FLHerne>No, seems not
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14:57<+michi_cc>Testing and ports for Linux/OSX welcome :)
14:58<andythenorth>I'll clone it
14:58<andythenorth>no PR? o_O
14:59<andythenorth>oh I see, ports needed :)
14:59<andythenorth>missed that bit
15:00<+michi_cc>And tests that indicates it works for anything else than my own machine.
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15:00<peter1138>michi_cc, have you considered using glfw as the base driver layer, instead of porting for each platform?
15:02<nielsm>okay now make a format that allows a "blitter" to just construct an operations list which is then fed to the video driver which turns it into actual draw calls!!
15:03<+michi_cc>The porting that needs to be done is the window/context creation, not sure using anything else improves stuff without writing new video drivers for each platform.
15:04<peter1138>That's the point. glfw handles window/context, along with input handling, on the common platforms.
15:04<+michi_cc>And using OpenGL only isn't really an option on Windows as some Intel graphics drivers are be default installed without OpenGL.
15:05<peter1138>SDL is really shitty for stuff like window resizing.
15:05<LordAro>not that i've noticed if SDL2 is any better
15:06<nielsm>doesn't SDL2 also have a way to create a working GL context built in`
15:06<LordAro>it does
15:06<LordAro>but that's not new afaik
15:09<peter1138>You're still stuck with the shitty resizing.
15:09<+michi_cc>Is getting OpenGL on Linux that complicated? The extra Windows code for a context are like 7 "real" lines (more in the branch because of pretty formatting).
15:10<peter1138>No, it's just SDL is crap :)
15:11<peter1138>But okay, out of scope
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15:48<peter1138>Anyway, last time I tested it, there was a crash somewhere, but I don't remember what I was doing at the time :S
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16:07<andythenorth>but is NRT? o_O
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16:42<TrueBrain>michi_cc: I see you are enjoying yourself :D OpenGL \o/
16:48<+michi_cc>Somebody has to have a patch for that™ :)
16:49<TrueBrain>okay, I really like the GitLab CI language .. guess I will make my own implementation based on the definition of that language :D
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17:08<LordAro>TrueBrain: ...yaml? :p
17:08<TrueBrain>yaml is awesome
17:08<TrueBrain>in so many ways
17:08<TrueBrain>that it would be yaml, was already set and known
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17:41<TrueBrain>bit annoying, as currently it looks I am building my own CI :P
17:41<TrueBrain>but okay .. because of dockers, it appears to be very trivial
17:41<TrueBrain>more tomorrow!
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---Logclosed Tue Jul 10 00:00:28 2018