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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-01-09

---Logopened Wed Jan 09 00:00:13 2019
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04:11<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #4449: [Windows] Fullscreen as borderless window at desktop resolution
04:11<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth closed issue #4449: [Windows] Fullscreen as borderless window at desktop resolution
04:14<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #5859: Calling VehicleEnterDepot for a train frees the reservation of the depot
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05:50<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] lanurmi commented on issue #4449: [Windows] Fullscreen as borderless window at desktop resolution
05:51<LordAro>i'm detecting some sarcasm
06:06<andythenorth>I am moving on
06:06<andythenorth>" as this PR is never going to get merged anyway. "
06:07<andythenorth>I could argue, or I could accept I'll probably be dead 'soon'
06:07<andythenorth>so fuck that
06:08<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #4449: [Windows] Fullscreen as borderless window at desktop resolution
06:12<LordAro>see, i definitely disagree that the issue should've been closed
06:13<LordAro>it's a valid issue, that's even had significant discussion on it since the gh move
06:13<@planetmaker>agreed... closing might be a bit over-zealous.
06:14<@planetmaker>it is an issue, but not yet resolved. And as it looks won't be by the person who contributed the patches since GH move
06:14<LordAro>lock it to contributors by all means
06:14<@planetmaker>but hey, it's andy's activity on the issue which brought it to live again in the first place
06:17<andythenorth>I closed it because it's not going anywhere, and the original contributor is whining
06:17<andythenorth>even before today
06:17<andythenorth>bearing in mind that issues can always be retrieved
06:18<@peter1138>Just hide them a little bit further and pretend they're not there.
06:20<andythenorth>we close about 26 PRs a month
06:20<andythenorth>and add about 31
06:20<andythenorth>so we're not short of things we could already ship
06:20<LordAro>i don't think things should be closed just because they're "not going anywhere"
06:21<andythenorth>@calc 26/31
06:21<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 0.838709677419
06:21<andythenorth>there's about an 83% chance of the PR going through currently
06:21*andythenorth very numbers
06:23<andythenorth>LordAro: I'm not upset if they get re-opened
06:24<andythenorth>I just see a pattern, might be false correlation
06:24<andythenorth>in the last 2 years, the more issues I close, the more nice contributions we get :)
06:24<andythenorth>you can send me the wiki link for 'cargo cult' if you want :P
07:10<Eddi|zuHause>"the more drama i cause, the more activity happens" is maybe not the best correlation out there...
07:11<Eddi|zuHause>it might have well-intended short term effects, but long-term is usually a lot more negative
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08:55<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #7031: Add: squirrel_export.vbs
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09:45<andythenorth>after 4 days work
09:45<andythenorth>I can save time
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10:10<@peter1138>Has andythenorth closed #7031 yet?
10:11<andythenorth>can't close any more
10:11<andythenorth>have to fix my own mess next
10:11<andythenorth>wiki is all very wrong
10:11<andythenorth>oh wait, wikis are always wrong
10:18<nielsm>good it looks like the dumb "security vuln" non-vulnerability thread has died off
10:19<andythenorth> progressive backoff of brute force attempts is fine
10:19<andythenorth>that thread wasn't very helpful though
10:24<andythenorth>what does misc flags bit
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10:35<Eddi|zuHause>did we ever even adress the fact that the passwords are stored in plain text in memory, and a server could just dump and collect them?
10:36<andythenorth>I'll find the issue
10:36<nielsm>and they are transmitted plain text over the network
10:37<andythenorth>this is definitely a thing, different, but a thing
10:38<andythenorth>ok so this is relevant
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10:42<nielsm>if you want to store salted and hashed passwords on the server, you also need an authentication mechanism that protects against replay attacks
10:43<@peter1138>Fortunately it's already closed
10:43<nielsm>IMO it would be more sensible to make it clear that OTTD company passwords are not secure, you should assume the server admin is able to read the password
10:43<Eddi|zuHause>we need to ask people about their phone numbers, email addresses and credit card numbers and store those!! that'll never cause any problems in the future!
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>at the bottom of that issue it's said the passwords aren't sent clear text
10:45<nielsm>then what are they?
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>dunno, i don't think i ever even looked at that part of the code
10:48<Samu>gonna change variable names to make it more clear and easier to read code
10:48<Samu>oh, and I have one question about where to make these checks
10:49<Samu>I can check ealier, in conjunction with HasTileWaterGround or later, right before doing the build command
10:49<nielsm>okay looks like the password is salted md5
10:49<Samu>anyone familiar with town growth code?
10:50<nielsm>the salt is calculated from server id and game seed
10:50<Eddi|zuHause>not that md5 is a "safe" cryptographic algorithm or anything...
10:50<andythenorth>automatic let's encrypt certs for all!
10:50<andythenorth>start openttd server, generate a cert!
10:50<nielsm>you may as well store it plaintext by now
10:51<nielsm>instead of pretending it's secure
10:51<andythenorth>nielsm: well it keeps out 7 year olds
10:51<andythenorth>probably not more
10:51<andythenorth>is all md5 cracked just on reverse lookups
10:51<andythenorth>we used to use it to 'secure' high score tables in online games
10:51<andythenorth>even then it was known vulnerable
10:51<andythenorth>15 years ago
10:52<andythenorth>yeah reverse lookups are a thing
10:53<Gabda>hi everyone
10:54<@peter1138>It's a compromise. For a secure server-side hash, the server doing authentication needs to be sent the cleartext password, which therefore requires transport level encryption (such as TLS)
10:54<Samu> find on this page for HasTileWaterGround and you find 3 places. Tell me if that is the correct place to do growing on water check
10:54<Samu>or if i can do the check later on
10:54<Samu>right before the DoCommands
10:55<@peter1138>What we do 'protects' the password in transit as it is not sent as cleartext.
10:56<nielsm>but it doesn't protect against replay attacks, just makes it harder for the server admin to guess what the player typed
10:56<Gabda>I found that town indexes are 2 bytes, so storing it for every tile in a cache can be painful
10:57<Samu>Gabda are u familiar with town growth algorithm?
10:57<Samu>the decisions that makes it follow a road, build a road or grow a house
10:57<Gabda>my 11 days of experience does not cover that part yet :D
10:58<Samu>ok, t.t I wanted to know exactly where I should check the GrowingOnWaterTile in the logic
10:59<Samu>so far, I've been making it right before DoCommands or MakeHouse
10:59<Samu>but I noticed there is a HasTileWaterGround check way before
10:59<Samu>this check fails on coast tiles, so I wondered if I do the check next to those
11:00<Samu>would be the correct way
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>that's why a voronoi partition would help, the graph is O(#towns) size instead of O(#tiles)
11:01<Samu>lines 1266, 1315 and 1340
11:01<andythenorth>nielsm: replay attacks are probably relatively hard
11:01<andythenorth>or at least, there are more interesting targets
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>however, it only works with euclidean distance, not manhattan distance
11:01<Samu>I would change them to if (HasTileWaterGround(whatever_tile) || GrowingonWateredTle(whatever_tile) return false;
11:02<Eddi|zuHause>and doing that with integer maths might be a bit tricky
11:02<Eddi|zuHause>(can't use floats, so no "sqrt" function
11:02<nielsm>andythenorth yes, if your intention was to grief an ottd game you probably wouldn't invest in intercepting network traffic to/from the server
11:02<nielsm>(if you could do that you could do much more interesting things anyway)
11:03<Samu>meh, chat is busy, bbl
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11:04<Gabda>and with manhattan distances, one domain can be really long as well, with a few tiles wide channel
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>well, flood-filling the tile cache you could do with euclidean-squared distance
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>that works fine for "which is bigger" comparisons
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>but not the complex algebra needed for voronoi
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>"complex" not in the "complex number" mathematical sense
11:07<Gabda>but as the goal would be to have information on the tiles without calculation, what options do we have aside from storing it for each tile?
11:07<Gabda>to have the answer in constant time instead of O(#towns)
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11:10<andythenorth>nielsm: +1
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>it's not constant, but i don't think it's O(#towns)
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>you could do O(#towns) by a simple loop over all towns
11:13<nielsm>my proposal for "security": 1) allow a TLS wrapped network protocol, 2) server has a secret key it uses to scramble company passwords with to store them in the savegame
11:14<nielsm>with (2) the server will be able to reload the company passwords, but anyone else getting the savegame won't be able to read them
11:14<nielsm>and (1) is just generic expectations
11:15<Eddi|zuHause>actually, i think you can get away with just using the squared euclidean distance
11:16<Gabda>i think i have to look into the graph representation deeper to underwtand what you mean
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>when i scroll through my code, i see a few divisions that might be problematic, but no sqrt
11:18<Borg>are u guys wasting time trying to encrypt company passwords?
11:18<Borg>its game.. a GAME..
11:18<nielsm>Borg apparently yes
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>Borg: that's not the point
11:18<Borg>except that admin can read them.. and u can sniff them.. is there an issue here?
11:18<Borg>Eddi|zuHause: and the point is?
11:18<nielsm>I still hold the best approach is to add a note to the password entry box that the server admin may be able to read anything you enter here
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>Borg: the point is, people are stupid and reuse passwords that they're also using for "important" stuff
11:19<Borg>stop protecting dumbs from natural selection..
11:19<Gabda>limit the password in 5 a-z letters
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>i would kickban you right now if i had op
11:20<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #6967: BaNaNaS: Unhandled exception when uploading new
11:20<Borg>Eddi|zuHause: lucky.. u dont have it
11:20<Gabda>noone has a pass that short, so they would need to think up a new one
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11:21<andythenorth>can borg handle the failure demand then?
11:21<Gabda>and they will feel it is not that secure
11:21<andythenorth>give him the support
11:21<Borg>do NOT do anything.. best idea is nielsm ... a hint: password is NOT stored securly.
11:21<Borg>its damn enough..
11:21<Borg>its game... GAME..
11:21<andythenorth>it's a game with players
11:21<Eddi|zuHause>Borg: people would go crazy
11:21<Borg>then do NOT do anything..
11:22<andythenorth>I am fine with doing nothing
11:22<Borg>just do NOT waste time on such silly issue really
11:22<Borg>but.. of course.. its your right to waste time :) do as you wish
11:22<TrueBrain>security silly? Let me grap my popcorn, this gotta be good
11:22<Borg>TrueBrain: wait...
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>Borg: it's by far the easier apporach to do this properly than to spend the next few years turning down requests about "why does it try to scare me?"
11:22<Borg>we talk about game.. not security..
11:22<andythenorth>yo TB
11:22<TrueBrain>Borg: please adjust your tone; it is rather annoying. the capitalization is unneeded. The constant references to "wasting time" is bullshit in an open source community. Be polite. Be a good citizen. Be less abusive. Tnx!
11:22<andythenorth>Borg: are you aware of the context?
11:22<Borg>security for me is: OpenTTD packet handling can be exploited to get a shell... that IS problem
11:23<Borg>TrueBrain: yeah.. and allow idiots to take over the world.. no thank you
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11:23<Borg>first RQ!
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>Borg: you know, these kinds of "get a shell" attacks are usually chains of vulnerabilities that start with "user password is transmitted in plain text"
11:24<Borg>Eddi|zuHause: uh.. did you ever done any security stuff? shell codes? injections.. whatever..
11:24<Borg>belive me.. that vectors have nothing to do w/ password storage
11:24<Borg>this is completly different vector
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>right, we have a winner for secon... third ignore list entry
11:25<Borg>andythenorth: not fully.. but still
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>ah, the quietness
11:26<Borg>lets read
11:26<TrueBrain>hmm ... my own bot refuses to accept my credentials .. this is annoying
11:27<nielsm>grr windows updates again busting my debug symbols cache
11:27<Borg>andythenorth: before I will read futher.. does openttd rcon can exec anything?
11:27<Borg>and.. is it by default disabled?
11:28<andythenorth>I have literally zero knowledge of ottdsec
11:28<Borg>okey.. time to do RTFS then
11:29<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: TrueBrain
11:29<TrueBrain>finally, DorpsGek, took you long enough
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11:30<TrueBrain>sadly, a bit late
11:30<TrueBrain>@calc 60 * 60 * 3600
11:30<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 12960000
11:30<TrueBrain>that is wrong
11:30<TrueBrain>@calc 60 * 60 * 25
11:30<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 90000
11:31<TrueBrain>@kban Borg 90000 I asked nicely. Sadly, I got a not-so-nice-answer. So .. try again in 24h
11:31-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!] by DorpsGek
11:31-!-Borg was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [I asked nicely. Sadly, I got a not-so-nice-answer. So .. try again in 24h]
11:31<TrueBrain>right, that took WAY too much time
11:31<TrueBrain>sorry about that
11:31<TrueBrain>we might not have a CoC, but no need to be a dick
11:31<Eddi|zuHause>doesn't happen often enough to be a reflex? :p
11:32<TrueBrain>yeah .. I lost my touch there :P
11:32<@peter1138>So, er, what was the issue there?
11:32<LordAro>i'm inclined to agree with borg's general point, it has to be said
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>i'm inclined to oppose his "general point"
11:33<TrueBrain>I don't think his point was relevant
11:33<TrueBrain>his way of delivering the message was not ... nice
11:33<TrueBrain>and if someone asks you to be less .... hostile .. the wrong answer is saying "no" to that :)
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>well, that needs no discussion
11:35<TrueBrain>clearly it did :P
11:36<@peter1138>What was hostile?
11:36<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: ^^ :)
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i threatened him with kickban for no reason
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>then TrueBrain appeared and kickbanned him
11:37<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: owh, I didnt even read that part
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: my point is, "it's a just game" is never an excuse to not do it properly
11:37<nielsm>so yeah, anyone opposed to this?
11:37<TrueBrain>that alone would indeed have been reason enough :)
11:38<nielsm>(needs some line breaking)
11:38<TrueBrain>nielsm: I like the pragmatic solution there :)
11:38<nielsm>"don't use a password you care about" basically
11:38<TrueBrain>long overdue
11:39<TrueBrain>we had talks about that months ago already
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>do we also need a GDPR blob?
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11:39<TrueBrain>guess we tried to solve it a bit too complicated :D
11:39<nielsm>that's up the the individual server admin how they manage personal information :)
11:39<TrueBrain>OpenTTD's services are mostly GDPR compliant
11:39<TrueBrain>I say mostly, as there is one more thing I would like to fix
11:39<nielsm>include a default MOTD system via the story book? :D
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11:40<TrueBrain>okay, I only now caught up with what the discussion was about :P
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>i mean more like, when you open the multiplayer window, a popup saying "the servers are not operated by the OpenTTD team, we are not responsible with what the servers do with your data"
11:41<TrueBrain>LordAro: I work for a security company; trust me if I tell you OpenTTD really needs to help people not being stupid :D
11:41<TrueBrain>(IT security company)
11:41<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: feels a bit over the top at first, but I see your point
11:41<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: possibly only the first time you go there or something?
11:41<TrueBrain>"good citizen"
11:41<TrueBrain>good question
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>like a "don't bother me again" checkbox?
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>probably overkill
11:42<TrueBrain>nielsm: btw, last time we talked about passwords, we figured out the best solution was an Authentication Server :D
11:42<nielsm>so, how do I set a maximum width on a WWT_LABEL widget and make it automatically line break?
11:42<TrueBrain>(talking about overengineering)
11:44<nielsm>if I just put a line break in the label text I get this:
11:44<TrueBrain>nielsm: another suggestion that floated by months ago, was instead of setting a password, let the server return a phrase when you want to "protect" your company
11:44<TrueBrain>removing the human factor completely
11:44<nielsm>line 2+ hidden
11:44<andythenorth>save and return
11:44<nielsm>TrueBrain, i.e. server makes a password for you?
11:45<TrueBrain>6 numbers
11:45<TrueBrain>or 6 letters
11:45<TrueBrain>or something like that
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>nielsm: there might be a "write multiline string" function?
11:45<Samu>maybe dont call it password
11:45<TrueBrain>you can save this easily in savegames, etc
11:45<Samu>call it ... hmm pin, or so
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: how are people supposed to remember random strings thrown at them?
11:45<TrueBrain>passphrase, pin, ...
11:45<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: write them down ? :D
11:46<TrueBrain>it is not a security thingy
11:46<TrueBrain>so that is safe :P
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like something unlikely to happen
11:46<TrueBrain>that is indeed the biggest drawback of that method
11:47<TrueBrain>(third time I agree with Eddi|zuHause today; shit is happening!)
11:47<TrueBrain>so I like the pragmatic solution nielsm is proposing :)
11:48<TrueBrain>and indeed what Samu suggests .. don't call it password .. and possibly don't even mask it
11:48<TrueBrain>that should give so many hints :P
11:48<nielsm>it's not being masked during entry
11:48<TrueBrain>good :)
11:48<Samu>"access code"
11:48<TrueBrain>Set the name of your animal
11:49<nielsm>secret handshake
11:49<Sacro>Just use Kerberos
11:49<TrueBrain>public secret handshake :P
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>your mom's maiden name
11:49<TrueBrain>Sacro: I await your patch :D
11:49<TrueBrain>but yeah, some Authentication Server moes the trust to a single entity
11:49<TrueBrain>instead of any server :P
11:49<nielsm>yeah you should submit your public key to the server and authenticate your company with your private key
11:50<TrueBrain>so TLS? :D
11:50<TrueBrain>(with client-side certificate)
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>introduce people to letsencrypt?
11:50<TrueBrain>we can make an index of the public keys :)
11:50<TrueBrain>and we are back to overengineering the shit out of this :P
11:51<andythenorth>just don't run a server?
11:51<TrueBrain>remove multiplayer!!
11:51<andythenorth>do clients have any ports open etc?
11:51<andythenorth>if not running server?
11:51<TrueBrain>I remember the time I added code to track players ... for some reason this was not a like addition to the game :P
11:51<TrueBrain>I was so naive back then
11:51<andythenorth>I don't get any warnings from my OS about OpenTTD trying to use network services, but eh
11:51<TrueBrain>andythenorth: clients never have ports open; servers do :)
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>now for something completely differences, i have two annoyances with the CI: 1) in the log of the failed task, the whole log is repeated with [error] instead of the actual error message, and 2) the error message is not propagated to the github PR
11:52<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: 1) can be solved, but someone has to do that :)
11:52<TrueBrain>2) they do, but only for Windows atm
11:52<TrueBrain>I am not sure we did something wrong, or Azure Pipelines are not there yet
11:52<TrueBrain>but yes, it is annoying as fuck
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11:53<TrueBrain>hi glx :)
11:53<andythenorth>so we started trying to understand how to 1
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>and possibly we should run the commit checker first, and only run the other tasks after that one came out ok? for earlier failure abort
11:53<andythenorth>triggered by
11:53<Sacro>Disable port fowarding except via SSH tunnel
11:53<Sacro>require pub key to ssh tunnel, bingol
11:53<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: good point, hmm .. will look into that
11:53*Sacro solves the day
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>Sacro: we'll have about 3 players after that change.
11:54<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: I removed that part, as I thought: if we run it all at once, it is done quicker. But that is only for when it succeeds :D
11:54<Sacro>how many more does a server need?
11:54<+glx>and of course a better error message TrueBrain ;)
11:54*Sacro wonders if he could pay OpenTTD at work
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: i assume the commit checker is the one failing the most often
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: also i noticed some random task failing because it couldn't get opengfx from mirror
11:55<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: yeah .. I think we should make it two CIs
11:55<TrueBrain>one for the commit checker, the other for the rest
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11:55<TrueBrain>that ... should never happen
11:55<TrueBrain>link me the logs in PM please
11:55<TrueBrain>sadly, I have to go now, so I will look into that this weekend
11:55<TrueBrain>but please tell me about these things :)
11:55<TrueBrain>cannot fix what I cannot see :)
11:56<andythenorth>file an issue
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>uhm, have to dig for that
11:56<andythenorth>we have room now
11:56<TrueBrain>owh, I was going; ciao!
11:57<andythenorth>I really want to close this
11:57<andythenorth>but there's a patch, it's long-standing, it's in JGRPP
11:57<+glx>TrueBrain: builds 153 and 173 for example
11:57<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #1743: Scenario Editor: new house feature
11:58<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth closed issue #1743: Scenario Editor: new house feature
11:58<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #3000: Allow train to find depot along reserved path
11:58<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth closed issue #3000: Allow train to find depot along reserved path
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>yeah the win64 task
11:59<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #5753: Game Script: GSText in info.nut's GetSettings() method
11:59<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth closed issue #5753: Game Script: GSText in info.nut's GetSettings() method
12:01<+glx>and the win32 task failing on the dependencies
12:01<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #5875: Bananas: online content doesn't stop downloading when canceled
12:01<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth closed issue #5875: Bananas: online content doesn't stop downloading when canceled
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12:02<Eddi|zuHause>i need an IRC client that could filter the DorpsGek_II messages and display them in a different font/colour/size
12:02<andythenorth>font-size: 0
12:02<+glx>I modified my event handler to not ding on DorpsGek_II :)
12:02<Sacro>font-size: 64
12:03<Sacro>prefix with /rainbow
12:03<Sacro>Or was it /rsay
12:03<+glx>all the ding ding spam was annoying
12:04<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #6095: File failed to decompress - Error window not on top
12:04<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth closed issue #6095: File failed to decompress - Error window not on top
12:04<+glx>because each issue closing means 4 dings ;)
12:05<+glx>as I'm in .notice too
12:05<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #6226: Crash when no baseset en invalid font in configuration
12:05<+glx>and andythenorth I suggest you /nick ;)
12:05-!-andythenorth is now known as andythenorth_stop_ping
12:07<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #6383: Bananas: "Select upgrade" for content tries to download old versions
12:07<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth closed issue #6383: Bananas: "Select upgrade" for content tries to download old versions
12:07-!-andythenorth_stop_ping is now known as andythenorth
12:09<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #6452: Locked GS parameter value can be reseted to default value
12:09<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth closed issue #6452: Locked GS parameter value can be reseted to default value
12:10<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #6524: Crash: passwording company
12:10<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth closed issue #6524: Crash: passwording company
12:11<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #6539: "Load scenario" dialog remains focusable while downloading missing online content for a scenario
12:11<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth closed issue #6539: "Load scenario" dialog remains focusable while downloading missing online content for a scenario
12:11<andythenorth>just 120 left to go
12:12<andythenorth>apply now, limited stocks!
12:14<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #6931: Change: Prevent town growth from blocking ships
12:16<Samu>changed some variable names
12:17<Samu>and with that the code seems more readable :), also made the checks to happen earlier rather than later
12:17<Samu>I know I said this before, but now I believe the code is ready for review *cross fingers*
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12:20<Samu>well, the pipeline azure dude isn't building...
12:21*andythenorth should patch to enable flipping articulated vehicles
12:21<andythenorth>but newgrf author has to handle *all* of it except the bit flip
12:22<Samu>why doesn't it build? I did exactly as told
12:22<Samu>git fetch upstream
12:22<Samu>git rebase -i upstream/master
12:22<Samu>git push --force
12:23<nielsm>because the pipeline is busy building other things
12:24<nielsm>appears not
12:25<Samu>the last build was yesterday night
12:25<Samu>i just pushed 10 mins ago
12:26<Samu>OpenTTD CI In progress — This check has started...
12:26<Samu>ah nice
12:26<Samu>took him some time
12:26<andythenorth>after 4 days work on my pixel generator
12:27<andythenorth>I am ready to draw 3 trains with it
12:27<+glx>ah you had time to do other stuff ?
12:27<andythenorth>not really
12:27<andythenorth>24 / 7 slaving over python
12:28<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #6548: Buoys can prevent oil rig spawns
12:28<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth closed issue #6548: Buoys can prevent oil rig spawns
12:29<@planetmaker>what about... "good first issue". Such issues are relatively simple
12:30<@planetmaker>at least I'd think so :D
12:30<@planetmaker>I might completely err
12:30<andythenorth>I might go re-open some later
12:30<andythenorth>I think to fairly encourage 'first issue' PRs
12:31<andythenorth>we have to be reviewing PRs
12:31<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on issue #6548: Buoys can prevent oil rig spawns
12:31<andythenorth>otherwise it's a bit misleading
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12:31<@planetmaker>that's way more important
12:32<andythenorth>let's review a frosch123 PR!
12:32<andythenorth>it's good to encourage new contributors!
12:32<@planetmaker>it might simply leap into the water :)
12:32<andythenorth>I tested this, it works
12:32<andythenorth>I can't comment on the code, or the savegame implications
12:32<andythenorth>or the MP implications
12:32<andythenorth>or the pathfinder risks
12:33<andythenorth>but I can do maths :P
12:35<andythenorth>'probably fine'
12:35<@planetmaker>I don't understand how that fixes it. But I don't see how fixing that has any implications on anything relevant
12:36<@planetmaker>except that the game becomes more visually appealing
12:36<andythenorth>the vehicle has no forward motion
12:36<@planetmaker>(the last 'e' in the sentence is relevant) :D
12:36<andythenorth>in the fixed version
12:36<andythenorth>in the non-fixed version, there is some acceleration, but the vehicle can't actually move
12:36<andythenorth>so the motion counter increases
12:37<andythenorth>I can't approve my own PR :P
12:37<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] planetmaker approved pull request #7018: Fix: Don't increase motion counter while train is waiting at non-path…
12:37<andythenorth>thx :D
12:37<andythenorth>LordAro: such merge?
12:38<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] planetmaker merged pull request #7018: Fix: Don't increase motion counter while train is waiting at non-path…
12:38<@planetmaker>oh :P Was it reserved for him?
12:38<@planetmaker>sorry, should that have been the case
12:38<andythenorth>oh you have merge rights too :D
12:39*andythenorth didn't get the memo sorry
12:39<@planetmaker>I may not know much about github. But I could do much :P
12:40<andythenorth>I like this one
12:40<andythenorth>I might even use it if it's added
12:40<andythenorth>new contributor also :)
12:43<@planetmaker>I actually would like it to read "Default company colour" as well. But feels a bit like bike shedding
12:44<andythenorth>Could go on for days :)
12:44<Eddi|zuHause><planetmaker> I don't understand how that fixes it <- imagine you are blind and run into a wall, that wall bounces you back 100 distance units and disorients you so you don't remember there was a wall. now you have 100 distance units to cover some acceleration, and inevitably hit the wall again, at a non-zero speed
12:44<andythenorth>nice analogy Eddi|zuHause :P
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>now with the "fix" you don't bounce 100 units back, and every attempt at accelerating will now just push against the wall
12:44<andythenorth>planetmaker: this was your request originally :)
12:44<andythenorth>I think it makes nicer desert rivers
12:45<@planetmaker>you made PR out of all of those? :)
12:45<andythenorth>I am not *just* closing issues :)
12:46<andythenorth>I am trying to get some patches through
12:46<andythenorth>but I can't review if I open them
12:46<andythenorth>there is a little bit more complaining about ticket closing here
12:46<andythenorth>than there is making and reviewing PRs :P
12:46<andythenorth>I guess irc is cheaper
12:46<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] planetmaker approved pull request #7015: Change: Desert tiles are now half-desert if a neighboured tile is non…
12:48<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] planetmaker merged pull request #7015: Change: Desert tiles are now half-desert if a neighboured tile is non…
12:48<@planetmaker>cleaning issue list like this is... lazy and convenient :P
12:48<@planetmaker>for me at least ;)
12:50<andythenorth>much easier for small things
12:50<andythenorth>than curl patch, blah blah
12:52<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth approved pull request #6998: Feature #4115: default company colour setting
12:52<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] planetmaker commented on pull request #6998: Feature #4115: default company colour setting
12:53<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #6848: Feature : New Trees Placement Algorithm "Forest".
12:53<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth closed pull request #6848: Feature : New Trees Placement Algorithm "Forest".
12:54<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #6846: Feature: Allow flip of train vehicles in depot independently of NewGRF property
12:54<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth closed pull request #6846: Feature: Allow flip of train vehicles in depot independently of NewGRF property
12:55<andythenorth>Samu: you going to rebase this one? o_O
12:55<andythenorth>personally I think these checks are boiling the ocean
12:55<andythenorth>but nielsm approved it ages ago
12:55<andythenorth>it just didn't get merged
12:56<andythenorth>are we also going to check road construction for blocking vehicle routes?
13:01<Samu>[17:55] <andythenorth> uhm, someone didn't like it
13:02<@planetmaker>someone on the internet is always wrong. Anotherone likely right
13:02<andythenorth>Samu: JJ isn't a reviewer currently
13:02<andythenorth>I happen to agree with JJ though
13:02<andythenorth>these checks are not winning anything
13:04<andythenorth>IMO: *either* fix the upstream issue (ships have no routes of any kind)
13:04<andythenorth>*or* fix the downstream issue (AIs can't handle failure)
13:04<Samu>that change is more geared towards AIs indeed
13:05<@planetmaker>it's somewhat an anti-griefing change
13:06<Samu>a dock can still be blocked by other means, in that regard it's not complete
13:06*planetmaker --> food
13:06<andythenorth>there are 3 or 4 of these PRs
13:06<andythenorth>I don't want to just reject them, because I don't want to disappoint
13:07<Samu>well, i was told to make separate patches for every issue. this is one of the cases where everything makes sense together and little sense alone
13:08<andythenorth>that happens
13:08<andythenorth>I guess I just go up a level and ask 'why fix this at all?'
13:09<Samu>yeah... seems that no matter what I explain, it will seem lacking
13:10<andythenorth>well you learnt a lot of code :)
13:10<Samu>EnsureNoDocking would need to be checked on a global level if it is to have any real meaning
13:10<Samu>currently, it's only doing that check when building docks only
13:11<Samu>because that's where I saw AI's getting most problems
13:11<andythenorth>I can only think that we do something like allowing players to buy sea tiles
13:11<Samu>they would block each other's docking tiles
13:11<andythenorth>which negates the problem, via ownnership
13:11<Samu>with their own docks
13:11<andythenorth>but owning tiles just allows more ways to block
13:11<andythenorth>so eh
13:12<andythenorth>why do we need to protect the AIs from each other? o_O
13:12<Samu>from themselves as well
13:12<Samu>but yeah, AI authors could do better :o
13:13<andythenorth>it's probably very hard for an AI to understand why a ship is lost
13:17<@DorpsGek>Xaroth19: I don't recognize you.
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13:17<Samu>ask nielsm what to do
13:22<Xaroth>quick, run, before TrueBrain is back.
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13:22<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think that was right
13:24<Samu>my next step would be making it global
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13:25<TrueBrain>sodd off Xaroth :p
13:25<Xaroth>:D :D :D :D
13:25<Samu>so, im unsure what to say atm
13:25<andythenorth>I can think of literally no viable solution
13:25<andythenorth>that reduces AI accidents or griefing
13:25<andythenorth>without also increasing AI accidents or griefing
13:26<andythenorth>we could store 'a ship has used this tile' in every water tile
13:26<andythenorth>but when would we clear it?
13:26<andythenorth>I have savegames with ships that take months or nearly a year to run a route
13:26<andythenorth>then I can 'own' islands by running ships around them
13:27<andythenorth>we could require players to buy water tiles
13:27<andythenorth>but then I can trap competitor ships by buying the water
13:27<Samu>i mean global, but not in that manner
13:28<Samu>have all other building methods to check for DockingTiles
13:28<Samu>don't think it's required to store whether a ship used a tile
13:29<andythenorth>what are DockingTiles?
13:29<Samu>tiles that "belong" to a dock where the ship stops to load/unload
13:30<andythenorth>I see
13:30<andythenorth>how does that stop ships getting trapped or blocked?
13:30<andythenorth>is it 2 different issues?
13:30<Samu>sec, let me create a situation
13:32<Samu>most AIs like to build like that
13:33<Samu>the EnsureNoDockingTile would prevent it
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13:34<andythenorth>ok so that's a specific issue
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13:35<Samu>it's what the function does, but atm, it's only checked when placing docks, and not when doing any other thing
13:35<Samu>like terraforming, etc...
13:35<andythenorth>AIs should try harder
13:36<Samu>there could be the case where the dockting tile could belong to two different owners
13:36<Samu>or even 3
13:36<Samu>3 different docks
13:36<Samu>that's what stopped me from pursuing further checks
13:37<Samu>i wouldn't know how to make terraform work
13:37<Samu>in such situations
13:38<Samu>there's also docks being build on land, the 3rd tile may not necessarily contain water (yet), until I build a canal there
13:38<Samu>in front of it
13:38<Samu>who would own the docking tile?
13:39<Samu>the dock owner?
13:39<Samu>the canal owner?
13:40<Samu>would i automatically enforce the 3rd tile to become a "docking tile" even if it doesn't have water (yet)?
13:41<Samu>and would i prevent someone else from building a road there, for instance?
13:42<Samu>so, yeah, i'm not entirely confident to pursue a global feature
13:42<Samu>unsure how I'd go at it
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13:51<andythenorth>recognise ocean boiling
13:53<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Ufiby commented on issue #6967: BaNaNaS: Unhandled exception when uploading new
13:58<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #6931: Change: Prevent town growth from blocking ships
14:23<Samu>crap! i found a bug
14:24<Samu>and i said ready for review, i hate myself
14:24<Samu>i need to change a x into an y
14:25<Samu>does it need rebase again?
14:26<andythenorth>when do we get concerned about action 2 / varaction 2 performance? o_O
14:26*andythenorth is making switches as though they have zero cost
14:28<Samu>oh god I feel so bad when I fail
14:28<Samu>hope no one was reviewing it yet
14:29<Samu>tile_2 wasn't using diffc.y for the y coordinate
14:29<Samu>was using diffc.x because i'm blind
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: main question there is how often the callback is called
14:30<andythenorth>I suspect the impact is worse for me, compiling, than for OpenTTD
14:31<andythenorth>fundamentally I'm adding a lot of branches, but the depth probably isn't that great
14:31<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #6931: Change: Prevent town growth from blocking ships
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if you ever are at a situation where you can optimize the run time at a cost of increased compile time, do that.
14:31<andythenorth>sounds awful :D
14:32<andythenorth>it's kind of utilitarian though
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14:32<Samu>do I have to rebase force push again?
14:34<andythenorth>when there are complex rules for which vehicle sprite to show
14:34<andythenorth>then there are layers
14:35<andythenorth>multiplication kicks in :P
14:35<Samu>I guess I know the answer already
14:35<Samu>even for a typo, i need a rebase
14:37<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #6931: Change: Prevent town growth from blocking ships
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>the callback depth is probably most important, also the complexity of the variable calculations. the number of choices in each switch is probably irrelevant for performance
14:38<andythenorth>if only we had an FPS meter....?
14:39<@planetmaker>we have an FF speed-o-meter
14:40<andythenorth>we do
14:41<andythenorth>what I could do with Eddi|zuHause is a var to compare current railtype and powerered-ness on ELRL :P
14:41<andythenorth>thart would be very helpful in 1.9.0
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>i guess i should start to implement the suggestions from the ticket
14:43<andythenorth>I should finish pantographs for EMUs
14:43<andythenorth>I blame Eddi|zuHause and nielsm
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: we have a performance dislpay now
14:43<andythenorth>I know, I was being silly :)
14:44<andythenorth>what's the near-equivalent to sunk cost fallacy?
14:44<andythenorth>when the effort will return
14:44<andythenorth>but if you'd known in advance
14:44<andythenorth>you might not have bothered :P
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>but sometimes the effort to find out how much effort it would be is the same as just doing it
14:45<andythenorth>might be a variant of
14:46<andythenorth>making automatically generated, railtype responsive pantographs in 3 variants
14:46<andythenorth>was a lot of work
14:48<andythenorth>OTOH it's a solid use case for sprite layers
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>"we put all this effort into sprite layers, now we must use them for something" is almost definitely a fallacy
14:53<andythenorth>if the pantographs didn't have up / down states, I'd have rendered them into the vehicle sprite
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14:54<andythenorth>so what about user bits for train vehicles then? o_O
14:54<andythenorth>need to be get / set on cb
14:55<andythenorth>oh and I want a cb for 'vehicle was flipped by player' :P
14:58<@planetmaker>hahaha. That would solve the problem: you could then visually flip-back the vehicle and make it like it was never flipped :P
15:02<andythenorth>I would count the number of flips, in a store
15:02<andythenorth>mod(2) would give the actual flip state :P
15:05<andythenorth>oh we didn't patch nml for 64 railtypes? o_O
15:06<andythenorth>looks fine to me
15:06<andythenorth>drive-by-contributions :D
15:06<@planetmaker>CI has not been setup?
15:06<andythenorth>not yet
15:07<@planetmaker>oh, nml, not OpenTTD
15:07<andythenorth>should maybe have CI
15:08<andythenorth>runs make test?
15:13<@planetmaker>it would be no issue to run it on the existing CI I have for NewGRF (that's the plan - it also has tests for nml there)
15:14<@planetmaker>but curse V. I need to complete a factory :P
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15:26<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #6988: Change: AI/GS ScriptBridge::GetName takes one extra parameter to refer the vehicle type
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15:56<frosch123>LordAro: function overloading and default parameters do not work in the squirrel api
15:56<frosch123>the api wrapper can't handle that
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16:51<Samu>oh, really?
16:52<Samu>I was going to try
16:53<andythenorth>boom boom
16:53*andythenorth made EMUs
16:53<andythenorth>5 days
16:53<andythenorth>'over-engineered much'
16:54<@planetmaker>I guess NML is just really missing the appropriate trigger at the repo... building on DevZone works...
16:56*andythenorth wonders if electric steam engines are now one line change
16:58<andythenorth>apparently they are
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17:08<@planetmaker>is that another name for fuel cell trains? ;)
17:09<@peter1138>" Today, I can still eat: 2707 out of about 5000 cals"
17:09<@peter1138>fitbit, why you so mad
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17:30<Eddi|zuHause>oh, i totally forgot we have the user bits on vehicles...
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>that's one of those too-specialized-to-be-useful features of NewGRFs
17:33<Samu>I'm looking at nielsm suggestion
17:33<Samu>it doesn't handle service at nearest depot
17:34<Samu>what if there are 500 ship depots ? :(
17:34<Samu>it will only check next depot every tile it walks into a new tile
17:35<Samu>every time*
17:36<Samu>i'm unsure how's this list kept refreshed, seems magic
17:38<Samu>or maybe im seeing this wrong, brb
17:41<Samu>ah, it pathfinds for every depot
17:41<Samu>huge stalls
17:41<Samu>doesn't look like a good solution
17:42<Samu>i dont know about my solution stallness either, must check
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18:00<Samu>can't rebase
18:01<Samu>i hate command line interface, i have no idea where to look at
18:01<Samu>someone edited NPF code recently
18:02<Samu>now my old stuff conflicts
18:02<Samu>on svn i would know how to handle this
18:02<Samu>but on git, i have no idea
18:06<Samu>it tells me to resolve conflicts
18:07<Samu>i dont even know what's conflicting
18:07<Samu>well i know, but i don't have a file, or something i can see
18:26<Samu>how do I see the conflicts?
18:56<LordAro>also and various other pages i'm sure you can manage to google yourself
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19:07<Samu> i reached this point so far, at least i can see what's conflicting, but i don't know how to proceed
19:09<Samu>do i edit the one to the left or the one to the right?
19:10<LordAro> something involving this, probably
19:10<Samu>the one on the left is my edits, the other on the right is the upstream/master
19:15<Samu>You may want to keep the changes in the master branch, the bugfix branch, or some combination of the two
19:15<Samu>my case is "some combination of the two"
19:27<Samu>ah i didn't have visual studio as the diff / merge editor
19:28<Samu>i see a 3 way merge in front of me
20:03<Samu>I think I did it. thx LordAro
20:04<Samu>juanjo implemented the same 2 parameters as me, but in different order, then it conflicted
20:07<Samu>wow, the end result became much much cleaner
20:07<Samu>i have a feeling juanjo had the same ideas as I
20:08<Samu>with the exception of those bug fixes to road depot stuff
20:08<Samu>i didn't touch that
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20:15<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #6928: Fix #5713: Use pathfinder to find closest ship depot
20:17<Samu>J0anJosep is juanjo, right?
20:19<Samu> much cleaner npf.cpp after all conflicts were resolved
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20:38<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #6928: Fix #5713: Use pathfinder to find closest ship depot
20:48<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #6928: Fix #5713: Use pathfinder to find closest ship depot
20:49<Samu>it's not building, I don't get it
20:50<Samu>what am I doing wrong
20:52<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Epicus7 opened issue #7032: Ugly regular font after FreeType update
20:56<Samu>it's not queued either
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21:01<Samu>well, cyas goodnight
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21:25<Eddi|zuHause>didn't see a "my font looks ugly now" screenshot a few days ago?
21:25<Eddi|zuHause>*didn't i already*
21:25<+glx>it was here only
21:26<Eddi|zuHause>did we get to a conclusion what happened?
21:26<+glx>but the report is nice because he researched for the cause
21:26<Eddi|zuHause>haven't read it
21:27<+glx>basically the updated version of freetype is the problem
21:27<Eddi|zuHause>never update anything, but also keep everything up to date...
21:28<+glx>we updated "by accident" when switching to vcpkg
21:28<+glx>openttd-useful package was quite old anyway
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---Logclosed Thu Jan 10 00:00:14 2019