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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-01-15

---Logopened Tue Jan 15 00:00:21 2019
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04:14<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Gabda87 commented on pull request #7047: Add #6887: Highlight tiles within local authority of towns https://git.io/fhcxF
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04:30<@peter1138>Morning.
04:33<andythenorth>moin
05:03<@peter1138>Why is my tummy rumbling? I had breakfast :S
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07:26<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Gabda87 opened pull request #7064: Fix #6438: raising/lowering 'Maximum no. competitors' setting in multiplayer https://git.io/fhCGC
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07:46*andythenorth so hungry
07:46<andythenorth>peter1138: lunch time yet?
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09:22<@peter1138>It was, I'd already eaten.
09:22<@peter1138>But only about 5-10 minutes before-hand.
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09:26<Samu>mirc expires after 30 days?
09:26<Samu>wtf
09:26<Samu>:(
09:27<@peter1138>It "expires", yes.
09:27<@peter1138>But mIRC is pretty shit.
09:33<Samu>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6986#issuecomment-445574298 this guy seems to be a town expert
09:33<Samu>how to persuade him into looking my code?
09:33<Xaroth>Ask him?
09:36<andythenorth>he'll either comment on your PR because it looks interesting, or he won't
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10:00<@peter1138>Should I investigate super-tiles?
10:01<nielsm>as in splitting the map up in blocks of tiles?
10:01<andythenorth>super
10:01<andythenorth>why not eh?
10:01<@peter1138>Not actually splitting.
10:01<nielsm>macro-tiles, to make a comparison to video coding
10:01<@peter1138>Just recording such for open water.
10:02<andythenorth>is this for pathfinding?
10:02<@peter1138>Yes.
10:02<nielsm>yes some kind of optimization for determining water connectivity is likely good
10:03<andythenorth>does it have any relevance to also giving towns blocks of super tile?
10:03<@peter1138>No.
10:03<andythenorth>ok
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10:03*andythenorth deletes all the ships
10:03<andythenorth>"super"
10:04<andythenorth>ha ha last 2 lines peter1138 https://github.com/andythenorth/NotWater/issues/1#issuecomment-289422663
10:05<@peter1138>o
10:15<@peter1138>Maybe I should just test my existing caching patch a bit more. I don't think super-tiles will solve the unreachable tile issue.
10:15<Eddi|zuHause>unreachable will always be the worst case
10:16<@peter1138>It's such a bad worst case though :)
10:16<Eddi|zuHause>you can make region numbers
10:16<@peter1138>Ah well, at least you are less likely to have 5000 ships all concurrently doing it now.
10:16<@peter1138>Hmm. m8 :-)
10:16<@peter1138>Actually m2 is free for water tiles anyway.
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>problem with region numbers is, in case of clearing a tile, you must look whether all adjacent tiles are still connected
10:17<@peter1138>I wonder how to calculate regions efficiently.
10:17<@peter1138>Heh
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>and potentially allocate a new region
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>and on flooding you might have to merge regions
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise, it's just a flood fill
10:18<@peter1138>Merging is simpler than splitting, I think.
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>not really
10:19<Eddi|zuHause>finding tiles that are not yet in any region is a tricky part as well
10:19<@peter1138>Yes really. With merging you have just 1 tile that connects, you can simply mark all the other tiles in that region to the new merged region.
10:19<@peter1138>But for splitting you need to keep track of way more stuff.
10:20<@peter1138>And indeed finding the regions, yes.
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>with splitting the only tricky part is to detect whether it's still connected
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>once you detected that, it's again just a flood-fill
10:20<andythenorth>it's really quite a nice problem
10:20<@peter1138>andythenorth, that sounds like volunteering :D
10:20<andythenorth>nope
10:21<andythenorth>but it's nicely non-trivial
10:21<andythenorth>and also makes piss all difference in most games :)
10:21<Eddi|zuHause>the word you were looking for is "niche" :p
10:21<andythenorth>it's niche
10:22<@peter1138>Alternatively you can finite-size regions, and maintain a list of connected regions.
10:22<@peter1138>+have
10:22<@peter1138>Although that complicates the "can you get from here to there" test.
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>someone did that with placing a bunch of buoys in the center of each region
10:34<@peter1138>Mint Daim bars are pretty damn good. Shame they're all processed sugar :/
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>processed sugar is not worse than natural sugar
10:40<@peter1138>Actually the form-factor of your carbohydrates does affect things.
10:41<@peter1138>But yeah. Shame they're all sugar. :p
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>but the most important thing is the mixture. once the sugar is removed from the original fruit (like, say, fruit juice), you've basically lost
10:42<@peter1138>Fruit juice is basically concentrated sugar. I haven't bought any for ages.
10:45<@peter1138>Over Christmas I bought a load of goodies in lots of moments of weakness :p
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10:45<@peter1138>Working my way through them means I've got high sugar for a bit. I could just bin them but I hate food waste.
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>oh, and the worst part is when you mix sugar and proteins
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>and fat
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>all in one dish
10:48<andythenorth>it is?
10:48<andythenorth>sounds like a cheese toasty with jam to me
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>exactly
10:48<@peter1138>No need for the jam.
10:50<@peter1138>Plenty of carbs in bread, though the sugar is relatively lower.
10:53<@peter1138>Still, the carbs gets turned into sugar anyway.
10:57<nielsm>ah yay, fixed the dumb pcm buffer bug: https://0x0.st/shKd.ogg
10:57<nielsm>now it's making the sound actually correct!
10:58<@peter1138>Hmm, sounds broken to me. Maybe that's my sound.
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10:58<@peter1138>Yeah it's not right.
11:00<nielsm>it's wrong, but it's not chopped up
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11:00<@peter1138>It is choppy for me. Hmm.
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11:00<nielsm>before I was mishandling the PCM buffer so half the buffer was filled with zeroes and the other half mixed-up samples
11:02<nielsm>the remaining bugs should be traceable to actual faults in my reimplementation of the decoder, as opposed to dumb mistakes in pcm buffer handling
11:02<nielsm>(wrote 2*n samples to the buffer and incremented pointer by n samples)
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11:30<nielsm>gah okay, I'm doing _something_ bad here, because I'm hitting heap corruption triggers whenever my new code has been running
11:35*peter1138 rides out the sugar crash.
11:36*andythenorth wants a sugar crash
11:36*andythenorth had a no-sugar crash :(
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11:40<AKTheKnight>Is it a day at work if I don't have a crash at some point?
11:41<Samu>i'm experimenting different costs for water stuff
11:41<@peter1138>It's a ssensible day.
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11:42<Samu>if IsWaterTile, add a big cost, so that in essence i'm making the other water tracks cheaper for the pathfinder
11:42<Samu>because they're in less quantity, i wonder if this helps pathfinding along the coast
11:43<@peter1138>Actually I'm probably just tired from lack of sleep, and just sat here no moving :p
11:43*andythenorth just had a nap
11:43<andythenorth>pretty unwanted
11:43<Samu>pathfind in less node searchs
11:43<Samu>what i'm aiming
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11:45<nielsm>https://0x0.st/shPu.ogg almost recognizable now, but still massively broken
11:45<nielsm>and still triggers heap corruption
11:47<AKTheKnight>Can you add that as an actual soundtrack? I kinda like it
11:47<nielsm>:P
11:48<Samu>uh oh i just broke yapf
11:48<Samu>costs are important after all
11:48<Samu>what was a valid path, now became a lost path
11:48<nielsm>the bugs when I was working on the GM decoder for dos music were more interesting :)
11:52<nielsm>AKTheKnight: https://0x0.st/shP_.mkv
11:55<@peter1138>nielsm, lol, after the intro worked so perfectly ...
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12:03<Samu>just tested no penalty for making turns, and it appears yapf does find paths slightly faster, 1 test case though
12:04<Samu>ships dont slow down on turns
12:05<Samu>gonna test with 5000 ships, brb
12:05<Samu>oh wait, this is debug mode, crap
12:14<Samu>meh, with 5000 ships the difference is negligible, not worth the effort
12:15<Samu>penalty for curves apparently does help 1 or 2%
12:16<Samu>@calc 10.40 / 10.20
12:16<@DorpsGek>Samu: 1.01960784314
12:16<Samu>2%
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12:25<andythenorth>bad features
12:25<andythenorth>are TMWFTLB
12:26*andythenorth does it anyway
12:26<Samu>holy crap beguglevel npf=9 is suicide
12:26<Samu>debug
12:32<@peter1138>It's a lot of useful debug information.
12:32<@peter1138>You probably don't want to use it with 5000 ships.
12:33<@peter1138>I love how you just get random ideas and keep plugging away with different variations without really knowing what you're doing :p
12:34<andythenorth>peter1138: I assume you're talking to me ^ :P
12:34<@peter1138>Yes of course :-)
12:34<andythenorth>sounds like UI design
12:34<andythenorth>and newgrfs
12:34<andythenorth>and my entire career
12:34<andythenorth>also children
12:34<andythenorth>very much children
12:35<andythenorth>so I've coded EMUs that are slow-ish
12:35<andythenorth>unless you attach them to an engine
12:35<andythenorth>then they're fast-ish
12:35<andythenorth>worst BAD FEATURE so far?
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>yes
12:35<andythenorth>peak BAD FEATURE
12:36<@peter1138>Is it the R word?
12:36<LordAro>reggae
12:36<andythenorth>reggae sauce
12:37<Samu>horizontal tracks cost 71 on yapf, 70 on npf, is that intended?
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12:37<Samu>horiz/verti
12:37<LordAro>Samu: probably not, but i don't expect it to make any significant difference
12:37<andythenorth>it's like realism, if I controlled reality
12:38<andythenorth>it's not at all like realism otherwise :P
12:38<andythenorth>I might retcon it somehow though
12:38<andythenorth>just amuses me to hide stupid features :D
12:38<@peter1138>Damn, Continuum shaders are kinda slow.
12:38<@peter1138>10 fps :/
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12:39<andythenorth>pedal faster
12:39<Samu>sqrt(2)/2*NPF_TILE_LENGTH =~ 0.7071
12:40<Samu>#define STRAIGHT_TRACK_LENGTH 7071/10000
12:40<Samu>yapf doesn't do any of this math
12:40<Samu>it just says it's 71
12:41<@peter1138>Close enough.
12:43<andythenorth>hmm
12:43<andythenorth>should I also make it change the speed
12:43<andythenorth>if the engine is at the rear of the consist?
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12:49<andythenorth>don't think I have a var for that :P
12:49*andythenorth checks
12:50<andythenorth>nah
12:50<andythenorth>not trivially
12:50<andythenorth>requires pissing around with var 61
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>just check the position in consist in the engine?
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>(works only for lowering speed, not raising)
12:54<Eddi|zuHause>but i still don't think you're going in any sane direction
12:54<andythenorth>I'm seeing if I can count IDs
12:54<andythenorth>without too much nml
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>there's a var for that i think
12:57<andythenorth>there is
12:58<Samu>the real time it takes to walk a tile in axis direction is 16*256* advance speed i think, gonna recheck
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13:09*andythenorth wonders what the worst feature I could add is?
13:10<andythenorth>snail has implemented brake force in french NG set, that's quite interesting
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>in some sense snail is even worse than george :p
13:12<Samu>oops i forked andythenorth notwater stuff by mistake
13:13<andythenorth>it's comprehensive and detailed and works though
13:13<andythenorth>there is a clear theme to it, and a big user guide
13:13<Samu>how to delete a fork?
13:14<Samu>ah, got it https://github.com/SamuXarick/NotWater/settings
13:16<Samu>wanted to head to my own fork, and instead it did that :(
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13:19<Samu>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/vehicle_base.h#L377 don't you mean in horizontal / vertical, or non-X and non-Y?
13:20<Samu>it's confusing
13:21<Samu>The vehicle speed is scaled by 3/4 when not moving in a DiagDir direction due to the shorter distance I think would be correct
13:22<Samu>or i don't know the meaning of scaled by
13:35<Samu>@calc 16*256
13:35<@DorpsGek>Samu: 4096
13:35<andythenorth>I could add different types of brakes?
13:35<Samu>decelleration formula
13:35<andythenorth>compatibility rules for multi-head engines?
13:35<andythenorth>pikka already did pax train electric supply :P
13:36<andythenorth>and deleted it
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>i imagine so
13:36<Samu>a tile has 16 sublocations, and needs 256 progress units to advance 1 sublocation
13:36<Samu>and vehicle moves at full speed
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>pikka had this minimalist phase where EVERY feature is a BAD FEATURE
13:37<Samu>another tile, has 8 sublocations, and needs 256 progress units to advance 1 sublocation, and the vehicle moves at 3/4 speed
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>"only 10 engines" and such
13:37<andythenorth>pikka need to reset :)
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13:37<Samu>for pathfinder cost penalties, if the first one costs 100, what would the other cost?
13:38<Samu>75 or 37.5?
13:38<andythenorth>so should I do variable running costs for engines, relative to powered-ness on current railtype?
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13:39<Wolf01>o/
13:40<andythenorth>might need a var for 'powered-ness' :P
13:40<Samu>I need a math expert :|
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>*cough*
13:41<Samu>i'm more inclined towards 75 because it makes more sense in my mind, lol
13:41<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z updated pull request #7000: Add: Var 6A, a clone of Var 4A for querying poweredness compared to a… https://git.io/fhI7h
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13:44<Wolf01><Samu> I need a math expert :| -> @calc?
13:44<Samu>75 or 37.5?
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: calculation has nothing to do with maths
13:47<Wolf01>I would use integers
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>aw, i forgot git add :/
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>how do i add just one changeset in a file?
13:50<LordAro>git add <file> :P
13:50<LordAro>Oh, a single changeset: -p
13:52<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z updated pull request #7000: Add: Var 6A, a clone of Var 4A for querying poweredness compared to a… https://git.io/fhI7h
13:54<Samu>the length of a straight track is 50
13:54<Samu>and the vehicle moves at 3/4
13:54<Samu>@calc 50 * 3/4
13:54<@DorpsGek>Samu: 37.5
13:54<Samu>:/
13:54<Samu>cant use decimals, what can i do
13:55<Samu>double everything
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>someone should look over my bitmath and tell me whether i got that right
13:58<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z updated pull request #7000: Add: Var 6A, a clone of Var 4A for querying poweredness compared to a… https://git.io/fhI7h
13:59<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z updated pull request #7000: Add: Var 6A, a clone of Var 4A for querying poweredness compared to a… https://git.io/fhI7h
14:04<Samu>i just made opf ships drunk
14:04<Samu>erm, npf
14:05<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you can issue sparks from somewhere else :P
14:05<Samu>it looks the answer is not 37.5, or i'm not sure i'm visualizing this right
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14:06<andythenorth>maybe I'm wrong, maybe effect vehicles aren't in tthe spec :)
14:07<Samu>a diag track has 16 sub locations, a vehicle needs 256 progress units to advance a sub location
14:07<Samu>a horz/vert track has 8
14:08<Samu>and vehicles move at 3/4 on them
14:08<Samu>which is like saying it needs 256*4/3 ?
14:08<Samu>@calc 256*4/3
14:08<@DorpsGek>Samu: 341.333333333
14:09<Samu>@calc 256/16
14:09<@DorpsGek>Samu: 16
14:09<Samu>@calc 256*4/3/8
14:09<@DorpsGek>Samu: 42.6666666667
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you can move them forwards and backwards
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>but not up and down, or sideways
14:10*andythenorth makes peace with that
14:10<Samu>@calc (256*4/3) / 8
14:10<@DorpsGek>Samu: 42.6666666667
14:10<Samu>this looks so wrong
14:10<Samu>i hate math
14:10<andythenorth>sure I've seen effect vehicles spec somewhere in frosch123 wiki :)
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>plus if you want to make 3rd rail sparks, you also need to know which side the 3rd rail is on
14:10<andythenorth>oof
14:11<andythenorth>let's not?
14:11<andythenorth>tile effects :P
14:11<andythenorth>I tried to add 3rd rail flash to 00 trains once
14:11<andythenorth>with an LED, a reed switch and a magnet
14:12<frosch123>https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/New_Smoke#Custom_effects <- not implemented
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: when andy says "frosch wiki" i'm immediately assuming it's not implemented :p
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>about the railtype speed, i'm somehow questioning the usefulness if that, since you don't know whether that's the currently limiting speed
14:13<frosch123>rude, about 1/4 is implemennted
14:13<andythenorth>the frosch wiki is a happy place
14:13<andythenorth>things go there to ripen
14:14<andythenorth>if yexo was here, more of it would be picked
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: but the implemented parts should also be on other wikis :p
14:14<andythenorth>how do we get a new yexo?
14:14<andythenorth>:P
14:15<frosch123>buy google
14:15<andythenorth>ooo
14:15<andythenorth>I mean it's possible, in theory
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>uhm... need to rethink these last commits
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>i think i took a wrong turn somewhere
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>in albuquerque
14:27<@peter1138>herpderp
14:28<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z updated pull request #7000: Add: Var 6A, a clone of Var 4A for querying poweredness compared to a… https://git.io/fhI7h
14:32<Samu>if npf is similar to yapf, why does it require about 25000 nodes to find what yapf finds in 10000?
14:33<@peter1138>They're both A*
14:33<andythenorth>why did yapf 'replace' npf? o_O
14:33<@peter1138>Optimisations affect how it works.
14:34<frosch123>yapf has a cache
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>yapf was written by a crazyperson
14:34<frosch123>npf visits every tile whenever searching
14:35<frosch123>yapf caches segments and their cost between junctions
14:35<Samu>for ships there is no cache, if i'm not mistaken
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14:36<frosch123>which works well if you have more track than junctions
14:37<LordAro>so turning large sections of open water into "segments" would work well then!
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: that's where the supertiles would come in
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>not quite the same thing, though
14:38<andythenorth>implicit bouys
14:39<frosch123>ships have two issues
14:39<frosch123>1. there are junctions everywhere, so pathfinder has lots of options. 2. there are junctions everywhere, so the ship has to redecide on every tile
14:39<Samu>yapf is better for ships, but I don't know why, can't figure the reason myself
14:39<Samu>tested
14:40<frosch123>somewhen i tried to address (2), by remembering how many tiles a ship won't change direction before searching next time
14:40<frosch123>but did not finish :p
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>was just about to ask how far that got :p
14:41<@peter1138>Why do you think there is no cache?
14:41<Samu>there is a cache that always returns false
14:41<Samu>so it's not enabled where i tested?
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14:43<Samu>seems to be a thing for roads and rails using pfs if I recall
14:44<Samu>caches the entire road segment until it finds a turn
14:44<Samu>for ships... i can't see anything
14:45<andythenorth>do ships really pathfind on every tile? :o
14:45<andythenorth>instead of caching a vector?
14:49<Samu>every tiles
14:49<Samu>maybe except aqueducts
14:49<Samu>not sure
14:57<andythenorth>what is the problem with ships?
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>there is no problem with ships, everything works fine
14:57<andythenorth>why do they need all these changes then? :P
14:58<andythenorth>I just use ships in my game
14:58<andythenorth>and if I use it a lot, it gets slow
14:58<andythenorth>[shrug]
14:58<nielsm>hmm in its current broken form, the adlib player takes about 3 ms to produce 8192 samples at 44.1 khz
14:58<nielsm>in a release build
14:58<nielsm>(on my machine)
14:59<+glx>and 8192@44.1 time lenght is ?
15:00<nielsm>so about 16 ms out of every second is spent on music?
15:00<nielsm>(which runs on a separate thread)
15:01<@peter1138>Seems ok.
15:01<@peter1138>There's a reason these things were done in hardware back in the 90s.
15:01<nielsm>yes :)
15:01<nielsm>and besides the hardware synth is analog signal generators with digital controls
15:02<+glx>it should be possible to prepare a sample batch while another is actually played
15:02<nielsm>true
15:02<nielsm>that just requires some synchronization I'm not into doing right now
15:03<nielsm>wow something breaks completely in sawyer's tune
15:03<@peter1138>That shouldn't be necessary.
15:03<nielsm>a few places it hangs weirdly
15:03<@peter1138>The audio is already buffered, so it already is being played concurrently with generation.
15:03<+glx>fill the buffer, wait for mixer to ask for the buffer
15:03<+glx>give it and prepare the next batch
15:04<+glx>you'll still need to copy your buffer into the mixer provided buffer
15:07<nielsm>sinister... and not deterministic! https://0x0.st/shNi.webm
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15:10<Eddi|zuHause>very 80s
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15:23<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z updated pull request #7000: Some NewGRF variables concerning railtypes https://git.io/fhI7h
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>i think this is how far i can sensibly do it righ now, the parts about what's the speed limit and what's the cruising state is a bit more elaborate
15:26<andythenorth>I missed those proposals in the comments
15:26<andythenorth>but they're very interesting
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>still unsure about the speed limit thing in var 4A
15:28<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #6947: A new variable Vehicle is loading required https://git.io/fhCj1
15:29<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #7000: Some NewGRF variables concerning railtypes https://git.io/fhCjH
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>speed limit thing might be something for GroundVehicle rather than Train?
15:31<andythenorth>so
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>planes could also have speed limit while taxiing
15:31<andythenorth>I could make a dual-mode 3rd-rail and overhead AC loco? :P
15:32<andythenorth>planes with a pushback tug :P
15:33<andythenorth>not sure what I'd do with the speed limit var, but I'm not george or snail et al
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15:37<Eddi|zuHause>i'm thinking a "speed_limit" variable, and a "speed_limit_flags" variable in Vehicle, and the acceleration/movement code sets this appropriately. on every line that sets the speed_limit variable, it is compared with the current speed_limit value, and if lower, speed_limit_flags is cleared and new bit is set (depeding on line), if equal, lime-bit is added to the current flags, and if higher, nothing is done
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>*line-bit
15:38<@peter1138>Hmm, right, maybe I should work on some things I promised, or have already started on.
15:38<@peter1138>I wonder why gitg removed its stash viewer. That was really useful.
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>"speed_limit_flags" might be "vehicle", "track", "bridge", "station approach", "timetable", ...
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>"power exhausted"?
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>(i.e. acceleration was 0)
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>or "te exhausted"?
15:41<andythenorth>peter1138: work on new things!
15:41*andythenorth always does
15:41<@peter1138>:/
15:41<andythenorth>way more fun
15:41<@peter1138>Hmm, ships stopping in locks...?
15:41<andythenorth>no need for docs and making the test pas
15:41<@peter1138>That's about 10 years old.
15:41<andythenorth>and all that crap
15:41<andythenorth>multi-docks :P
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: newgrf statemachines
15:42<@peter1138>Not sure that was something I ever planned, Eddi|zuHause;
15:42<andythenorth>newgrf station tiles that can show more than one cargo (across the whole station)
15:42<andythenorth>flat docks
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>(would cover ship locks, drawbridges, highways/onramps, airports)
15:42<andythenorth>flat docks are allegedly in the spec already, mumble mumble TTDP
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>(tram turning loops)
15:42*andythenorth didn't check
15:43<andythenorth>unrelated: anyone know how physics works?
15:43*andythenorth wonders about an acceleration factor, it's a proxy for gearing, peak torque etc
15:43<andythenorth>TE isn't the same
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>?
15:44<andythenorth>TE has almost no effect unless you add enough weight to a train that it's on it's knees on a slope
15:45<andythenorth>the significant property for train performance in game is purely HP, except for pathological combination of weight + slope
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>train needs a startup force? won't move unless TE > that force?
15:45<andythenorth>yes, but if TE is 'enough' there isn't much more observable difference
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>yes.
15:45<andythenorth>I did learn how TE works once, and I believe that's correct
15:46<andythenorth>whereas acceleration depends on the rate of work or so
15:46<@peter1138>problem is we use the max TE all the time, which in reality would result in an... uncomfortable and inefficient acceleration.
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>TE is the limiting factor on very low speeds (<20km/h or so)
15:46<andythenorth>yes
15:46<andythenorth>for acceleration, mechanical or electrical factors like gearing, wheel size, or max watts on the motor are the factors
15:46<@peter1138>yes
15:46<andythenorth>TL;DR I'd like to be able to make some trains suited for many stops
15:46<andythenorth>and some for few stops
15:47<andythenorth>it's hardly necessary
15:47<@peter1138>basically the only way to have slow acceleration is to have very underpowered trains
15:47<andythenorth>but currently I have to piss around with quite fine adjustments of HP
15:47<andythenorth>fast trains that have enough HP to achieve max speed are quite OP for all other cases
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>other than braking force, i don't see what you can really change there
15:48<andythenorth>I read the code, and I didn't see an obvious thing to try
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>or ridiculously high running costs
15:48<andythenorth>but there's probably a rate of acceleraion that could have a factor applied
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>"real" trains are also probably scheduled about 80% of their max speed
15:49<andythenorth>yes
15:49<andythenorth>acceleration out of stops is a key issue IRL
15:49<andythenorth>for pathing and performance
15:49<andythenorth>not sure that matters in game
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>you don't have enough controls to handle that properly
15:50<andythenorth>but in Horse, unless you load the weight up enough to put the train on its knees, you are usually better off choosing the expensive pax engine
15:50<@peter1138>Add the controls.
15:50<andythenorth>it will beat the equivalent sized freight engine over the same tile route
15:50<andythenorth>it will cost more, but there's less network contention
15:50<andythenorth>and network contention >>>> money
15:51<@peter1138>Hmm, should I make this patch a setting? :p
15:51<andythenorth>accelerating out of signal stops is quite a big deal in the kind of crap ottd networks I build
15:51*andythenorth is not coop style
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>settings are evil
15:51<@peter1138>Yes but gameplay changes are ... hmm ...
15:51<andythenorth>JUST DO IT!
15:51<andythenorth>PeterPP
15:51<andythenorth>what changed? :P
15:52<@peter1138>I considered that but it's too much work.
15:52<@peter1138>I just resigned from being the local CTC ride coordinator because I'm too lazy to do it once a month.
15:52<@peter1138>andythenorth, this is my patch that makes ships turn slowly instead of instantly.
15:53<@peter1138>It's quite an invasive patch for something that isn't seen very often :/
15:53<@peter1138>Maybe we need tugs :p
15:54<@peter1138>https://github.com/PeterN/OpenTTD/commits/ship-tweaks-redux
15:55<@peter1138>^ It's that last change.
15:56<andythenorth>I hate it
15:56<andythenorth>do it anyway? o_O
15:56<andythenorth>forums always blame me
15:56<andythenorth>or someone innocent, never you
15:56<@peter1138>You hate it? Did you... what?
15:56<andythenorth>of course I didn't
15:57<andythenorth>hmm
15:57<andythenorth>do I have you upstream?
15:57<andythenorth>yes
15:58<andythenorth>hmm where is acceleration stuff, ground_vehicle_cmd maybe?
16:00<@peter1138>Fitbit says I can eat another 1000 kcal, despite have a pizza and garlic bread for dinner. Madness. Is cheese a good idea?
16:01<andythenorth>peter1138: how do I test the reversing?
16:01<@peter1138>Basically when ship heads into a dock head on, when it leaves it will turn instead of just flipping around.
16:02<andythenorth>and if I reverse it en-route (change order)?
16:02<@peter1138>Now I think about it, this is massively over engineered for something that is barely visible :s
16:02<@peter1138>Yeah that should too.
16:02<andythenorth>no actually I love it
16:02<@peter1138>And 90 degree turns will have an intermediate step.
16:02<andythenorth>it's a lot more like real ships
16:02<andythenorth>it's a bit ponderous
16:03<@peter1138>It makes ships worse, just what we need :D
16:03<andythenorth>I thought it might be annoying in a game, but it's a small-big-improvement
16:03<andythenorth>looks like they're maneouvering
16:04<andythenorth>yeah that 180 deg dock flip :P
16:04<andythenorth>I won't miss that
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16:05<andythenorth>hmm if we have air drag
16:05<andythenorth>and curve speed
16:05<andythenorth>we can probably accomodate a proxy for gearing / etc
16:05<andythenorth>dunno what the technical term would be
16:05<andythenorth>is it some kind of torque co-efficient?
16:06<andythenorth>it applies during acceleration, rather than cruise
16:08<@peter1138>just have a callback, called every tick, to have the vehicle calculate its own acceleration :p
16:08<andythenorth>lovely
16:08<@peter1138>Biscuits & cheese?
16:08<andythenorth>I threw out more mouldy cheese
16:08<andythenorth>it was sad
16:08<@peter1138>I got a big wedge of stilton now.
16:09<AKTheKnight>Favourite cheese?
16:09<andythenorth>cheese boats!
16:09<andythenorth>I tried cheese in FIRS
16:09<andythenorth>didn't quite work, but eh
16:09<@peter1138>AKTheKnight, all of it.
16:10<AKTheKnight>Haha if you had to pick one?
16:10<@peter1138>Impossible :/
16:10<andythenorth>so newgrf acceleration? :P http://evilgeniustech.com/idiotsGuideToRailroadPhysics/HorsepowerAndTractiveEffort/
16:11<@peter1138>Oh yeah I got a big wedge of mature Gouda too.
16:11<andythenorth>newgrf can then do all the things like phase transition :P
16:11<AKTheKnight>Oooh, I love Gouda
16:11<andythenorth>efficient use of regulator / controller :P
16:11<andythenorth>coasting
16:11<AKTheKnight>Mont d'Or has gotta be my all time favourite though
16:12<@peter1138>Baked Mont d'Or is good
16:12<@peter1138>Bloody hell, cheese is so good.
16:13<@peter1138>Why does it have to have so much unhealthy fat :(
16:13<andythenorth>:P
16:13<@peter1138>Mind you kinda like Philidelphia too, but that's pretty bad cos it's not really cheese.
16:14<AKTheKnight>Bagels, cream cheese, smoked salmon
16:14<AKTheKnight>Perfect breakfast
16:14<@peter1138>Carbs ;(
16:14<AKTheKnight>You trying to go low carbs?
16:14<AKTheKnight>I really should care about what I eat, but for now I'm alright
16:15<@peter1138>Not currently, but I cut back on carbs a bit for a few months last year and felt a lot better. Lost a shed load of weight too, probably not a coincidence.
16:16<@peter1138>I want to cut back a bit now as I had fuck loads over christmas and they're kinda self-fulfilling. You want more while you're having them.
16:16<AKTheKnight>That makes sense. I'm cutting back on takeaways/unhealthy and trying to lower my portion sizes a bit too
16:17<@peter1138>Carbs leads to be snacking, which results in overeating.
16:17<@peter1138>s/be/me.
16:18<AKTheKnight>Yeah I've cut back on snacking a bit, keeping myself busy at work helps with that
16:18<@peter1138>Although there's a balance, I became a bit too underweight which is also not great.
16:19<@peter1138>As a previously fat person who thought "bah, how can you be underweight, just eat" ... well, it's not that simple :)
16:19<AKTheKnight>Yeah I'm trying to avoid putting on anymore weight and being the fat person
16:22<@peter1138>3 years of solid cycling helped too!
16:23<AKTheKnight>I need to get into doing more exercise. Think I'll try and do some running and cycling again once it warms up
16:24<nielsm>that's a funky waveform https://0x0.st/shN3.png
16:25<+glx>saturation ?
16:26<@peter1138>Hmm, lots of HF noise?
16:26<@peter1138>or is that LFO gone mad?
16:26<@peter1138>Ah, just saw the time scale.
16:26<@peter1138>It's an LFO gone mad.
16:26<nielsm>yes looks like around 0.25 hz
16:27<@peter1138>In an analogue system that DC offset would be lost due to output capacitors filtering it.
16:27<@peter1138>(And indeed, it will be)
16:27<nielsm>but anyway it's sounding a bit more like it: https://0x0.st/shNg.ogg
16:27<nielsm>mostly the percussion is bugged
16:28<nielsm>and then something about the delays
16:29<nielsm>though this is with the dual channel/dual track code disabled, since that causes a bunch of issues right now
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16:30<@peter1138>andythenorth, shall I PR it?
16:33<@peter1138>Zoolook is energetic. Maybe not the best music to be listening to before bed.
16:35<@peter1138>Mmm, that gouda has a lovely flavour.
16:36<andythenorth>peter1138: PR it!
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>bed?
16:37<@peter1138>Bed soon, rather than, say, 3am like last night.
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>that never worked when i tried
16:37<andythenorth>PR and run
16:38<andythenorth>oh look in my diary
16:38<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, I'll get the kindle out for a change, instead of playing on the phone.
16:38<andythenorth>'risk register review'
16:38<andythenorth>my glamorous life
16:38<andythenorth>peter1138: I am reading Biggles :P
16:38<andythenorth>for random reasons
16:43<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN opened pull request #7065: Change: Make ships stop and change direction slowly instead of instantly turning. https://git.io/fhWk0
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>that immediately pops a bunch of thoughts in my mind
16:44<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7065: Change: Make ships stop and change direction slowly instead of instantly turning. https://git.io/fhWkK
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>like, river ships making 45° turns more quickly and stuff
16:45<andythenorth>o_O
16:45<LordAro>andythenorth: giv video
16:46<andythenorth>oof
16:46<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, turn speed could be a property, currently it's fixed.
16:46<andythenorth>acceleration :P
16:46<andythenorth>draft
16:46<andythenorth>air draft? o_O
16:46<@peter1138>(And not entirely predictable, as it uses the vehicle tick counter, so may not be starting from zero)
16:46<@peter1138>Draft beer?
16:47<andythenorth>air draft is quite important for ships https://maritimecyprus.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/air-draft.jpg
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>also unrelated: rivers need a flowing speed, so you can go faster downstream than upstream
16:47<@peter1138>They also need a direction, then.
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>i meant a speed vector
16:47<dwfreed>you mean a velocity
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>same thing
16:48<dwfreed>:P
16:48<dwfreed>use the right physics term so we understand what you mean
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>when you stop trying to make two words that mean the same thing into meaning different nuances
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>that are entirely arbitrary
16:49<dwfreed>physics has had these definitions for many, many years
16:50<andythenorth>a velocity isn't a speed vector? :o
16:50<dwfreed>I mean, it is, but a "speed vector" is a confusing way of saying it, when "velocity" already exists
16:51<andythenorth>do rivers need a direction?
16:51<andythenorth>can we give them some track bits
16:51<andythenorth>?
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>dwfreed: how come "velocity vector" is then a word i find in my dictionary?
16:51<andythenorth>oh we can do the direction as a byte?
16:52<andythenorth>there are 8 directions?
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>"velocity" in no way implies being vectorized any more than "speed" does...
16:52<andythenorth>I was taught differently in physics eddi :o
16:53<dwfreed>Eddi|zuHause: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocity
16:53<dwfreed>"Velocity is a physical vector quantity"
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>just the english language has this habit of making up two words for the same thing
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>like Beef and Cow
16:53<@planetmaker>o/
16:53<Samu>im changing opf to be more intelligent at being bad
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>and then pretending they don't mean the same thing
16:53<andythenorth>except in a physics exam, I would usually specific 'velocity, as a vector'
16:53<andythenorth>in plain speech
16:53<andythenorth>because velocity and speed are used interchangeably in plain speecvh
16:54<andythenorth>typing fail
16:54<andythenorth>so ship has upstream and downstream speeds?
16:54<AKTheKnight>Beef vs cow was because of the normans
16:54<AKTheKnight>Beef was what you ate
16:55<AKTheKnight>Cow was the live animal
16:55<@peter1138>And that ... was a nice soft cheese.
16:55<andythenorth>cow is female
16:55<andythenorth>beef is often steer
16:55<andythenorth>or bullock
16:55<Samu>opf is using track to increase it's depth
16:55<@peter1138>https://www.cawscenarth.co.uk/product-page/golden-cenarth
16:55<dwfreed>often times farmers refer to their cows as "beef" when that's what they intend to turn them into
16:55<@peter1138>^ One of them :D
16:56<Samu>now i'm changing it to trackdir instead
16:56<@peter1138>Although I only had a small piece obviously, not the whole cheese.
16:56<AKTheKnight>"small piece"
16:56<AKTheKnight>Sounds like you ate the whole thing to me
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>dwfreed: in original french, "boef" means both the animal and the meat
16:56<Samu>should go at greater depths now on horz/vert tracks
16:57<Samu>if that results at it being smarter, is what's i'm gonna discover now
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>in german it's slightly more complicated, because both the term "Kuh" and "Rind" exist
16:57<@peter1138>AKTheKnight, about 30 grams, so not a lot.
16:58<AKTheKnight>Thats not bad peter1138, I'm snacking on a bit of this now: https://www.nealsyarddairy.co.uk/products/keens-cheddar
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16:59<@peter1138>Ooh decent looking cheddar.
16:59<@peter1138>Gotta admit I tend to just go with the supermarket stuff for cheddar but maybe I should change.
16:59<@peter1138>Nothing really special about the premium brands in supermarkets.
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>dwfreed: anyway, that wikipage is in no way a convincing argument that "speed" always means scalar and "velocity" always means vector...
17:00<AKTheKnight>Well tbh I took this from my parents after Christmas. I've got the Waitrose version not the neals yard one
17:00<@peter1138>Mine is from Tesco :p
17:01<AKTheKnight>Haha I usually get an asda shop, they're not known for their premium cheese :P
17:02<@peter1138>Hmm, the other cheeses from that link look nice too.
17:02<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: in plain English, they're used interchangeably
17:02<andythenorth>but if you did an A-level Physics exam paper, you would be expected to treat one as scalar, and one as vector
17:02<AKTheKnight>Yeah I think their only shop is next to borough market, they do some fancy cheese
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: and we're not using plain english here?
17:02<andythenorth>it's contextual
17:03<andythenorth>it's on a par with the stupid BODMAS rules or whatever they're called
17:03<andythenorth>for order of operations
17:03<andythenorth>people who do it 'correctly' are adamant there is only one way
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>in a scientific paper/exam i can make an arrow above the v symbol to make it clear i'm talking about the vector
17:03<andythenorth>and then there's everyone else
17:03<andythenorth>similar to the order of ops rules
17:03<andythenorth>anyone doing engineering would put in the brackets
17:04<andythenorth>and stop relying on people remembering dumbass acronyms
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>people who think there is only one order of operator precedences haven't switched between programming languages enough
17:04<@peter1138>Right, night night.
17:04<andythenorth>cheese grommit!
17:04<AKTheKnight>night
17:04<@peter1138>MORE CHEESE
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>i don't understand cheese
17:04<@peter1138>Why do my passions have to be unhealthy?
17:05<milek7>v⃗
17:05<andythenorth>peter1138: don't expand that further pls :P
17:05<dwfreed>andythenorth: PEMDAS
17:05<andythenorth>I was made to feel stupid once for putting the brackets in
17:05*andythenorth is still bitter
17:05<@peter1138>LEOBODNAR
17:05<dwfreed>"Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally"
17:05<andythenorth>I was told it was redundant, and wasted space
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>mnemonics for stupid rules are even worse than the stupid rules themselves
17:06<andythenorth>except for SOHCAHTOA
17:06<andythenorth>the best
17:06<andythenorth>trig is the best maths
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>you haven't done functional analysis then :p
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>"let's take all these concept about vectors and dimensions, throw it all out, and redefine it in counterintuitive ways to make it work for infinitely many dimensions"
17:09<andythenorth>no I haven't
17:09<andythenorth>I sat next to someone who did :P
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>"what do you mean these spheres have all right angles on every surface point?"
17:09<andythenorth>n-dimensional vectors in non-euclidean geometries
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>no no
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>n-dimensional is not infinite-dimensional :p
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>you can make this even worse :p
17:10<andythenorth>yes I see now
17:10<andythenorth>that raises the game
17:10<andythenorth>finitely, but also infinitely
17:11<andythenorth>it's a single step from finite to infinite
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>not to mention that there are different levels of infinite
17:11<andythenorth>that can only be discussed in Thursdays
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17:11<andythenorth>child #1 watches videos about it
17:12<andythenorth>why did I do Hilbert spaces in philosophy?
17:12*andythenorth can't remember
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>maths is the highest form of philosophy
17:13<andythenorth>something about complex numbers and hilbert spaces
17:13*andythenorth didn't really pay attention at the time
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>you can also extend hilbert spaces to infinite dimensions
17:14<andythenorth>something to do with decomposing the imaginary part
17:15<andythenorth>my maths isn't as strong as it should be :P
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>one of the "fun" bits about functional analysis: in "regular" maths you can make sums over infinitely many parts, as long as the "infinite" thing is countable. but in functional analysis you can generalize that even further, to sum over an uncountable infinite set, as long as only countably-many elements are non-zero
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17:17<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: complex numbers are a very easy special case of a hilbert space
17:20<andythenorth>right bedtime
17:20<andythenorth>bye
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17:41<Samu>i think i made opf too smart now lol
17:41<Samu>it's fun to test things on it
17:43<Samu>im impressed
17:43*LordAro tempted to make a PR removing OPF
17:44<LordAro>:p
17:44<Samu>no, i mean this tweak seems to have good results
17:44<Samu>let me try the 5k ship map
17:47<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro updated pull request #7057: Fix: A few minor compile warnings under MinGW https://git.io/fhn6E
17:47<Samu>i changed Track into Trackdir and adjusted accordingly, now it can increase it's search depth on horizontal and vertical, not just on diagonals
17:48<Samu>the results are surprising me
17:48<Samu>didn't expect anything of it, but it almost looks smart
17:49<Samu>the way is was doing the searchs before were more fitting of a road vehicle
17:49<LordAro>peter1138: #7065 needs rebasing to get CI results, btw
17:54<Samu>uh oh, bad news, this "tweak" made it much more cpu insensive
17:55<Samu>I used to get 90 ms avg, now it's 220 ms avg
17:56<Samu>it goes through many asserts, i guess if i skip the asserts, it may be faster?
17:58<dwfreed>asserts are generally removed in optimized builds
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18:03<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep commented on pull request #7065: Change: Make ships stop and change direction slowly instead of instantly turning. https://git.io/fhW3c
18:03<Samu>testing without asserts, keks
18:05<Samu>many of the asserts were repeating in similar functions
18:06<Samu>looks like it wasn't the asserts
18:06<Samu>it's still slow, oh well, I tried
18:07<Samu>I wonder why
18:07<Samu>because it can search deeper?
18:08<dwfreed>this is where profiling comes in handy
18:10<Samu>remaining depth was usually quickly decreased from 4 to 2 when heading into coasts
18:11<Samu>it's not quickly decreased now, I suspect I "doubled" its depth, by letting it search deeper on more directions
18:11<Samu>ok let's try a depth of 2 then, brb
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18:14<Samu>holy smokes, what a huge difference
18:15<Samu>from 220 ms avg to 4 ms avg
18:15<Samu>looks like i still dont understand depth
18:17<Samu>many lost ships now, gonna try 3
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18:21<Samu>depth 3 also with lost ships
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18:34<Samu>nevermind, it's worse than i though
18:34<Samu>clearly i dont get depth
18:41<Samu>IsTileFlat is somewhat expensive for no apparent reason
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19:07<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7000: Some NewGRF variables concerning railtypes https://git.io/fhWn9
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19:15<Eddi|zuHause>i should have noticed that
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>also... why did my rebase just eat a commit?
19:16<LordAro>it'll eat empty commits
19:23<Eddi|zuHause>the entire length of this page is just examples on why i hate git... https://stackoverflow.com/questions/4114095/how-to-revert-a-git-repository-to-a-previous-commit
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>10 answers to... something... that are either not the original question or "let's look at the internals first"
19:25<Samu>recycle bin
19:25<Samu>for me
19:25<LordAro>http://justinhileman.info/article/git-pretty/ is my personal favourite
19:25<LordAro>Samu: i know you think you're bragging, but you're really not
19:27<Eddi|zuHause>but... what i actually wanted to know... after i checkout or --reset hard an older commit, how do i point my branch back to that commit?
19:30<LordAro>with difficulty
19:31<LordAro>oh, not that difficult
19:31<LordAro>https://stackoverflow.com/questions/7310177/how-do-i-make-a-branch-point-at-a-specific-commit
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i thought i did that
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>must have been that wrong turn at albuquerque again
19:37<Eddi|zuHause>it did it again?
19:37<Eddi|zuHause>i don't understand it...
19:40<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z updated pull request #7000: Some NewGRF variables concerning railtypes https://git.io/fhI7h
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19:41<Eddi|zuHause>apparently in a rebase -i if you "edit" a commit, you must use commit --amend, but if it has a conflict at a "pick" you must not use commit --amend
19:42<Eddi|zuHause>who comes up with this?
19:43<LordAro>do not question the great Linus
19:44<LordAro>though i'm pretty sure Linus handed git off long before rebasing was implemented
19:44<LordAro>and he never uses it anyway
20:10<+glx>LordAro: manually moving -lstdc++ from the begining of LDFLAGS to the end of LDFLAGS allow to compile with freetype on MSYS2
20:13<dwfreed>makes sense; stdc++ should be at the end anyway
20:34<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7057: Fix: A few minor compile warnings under MinGW https://git.io/fhW4k
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---Logclosed Wed Jan 16 00:00:23 2019