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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-01-26

---Logopened Sat Jan 26 00:00:37 2019
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01:29<@Alberth>moin
01:31<Pikka>noim
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02:24<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy updated pull request #7080: Change: Cache stations and links for whole map for linkgraph GUI to eliminate delay when scrolling or zooming https://git.io/fh2LL
02:29<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy updated pull request #7080: Change: Cache stations and links for whole map for linkgraph GUI to eliminate delay when scrolling or zooming https://git.io/fh2LL
02:32<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy commented on pull request #7080: Change: Cache stations and links for whole map for linkgraph GUI to eliminate delay when scrolling or zooming https://git.io/fhKwA
02:33<andythenorth>moin
02:35<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy updated pull request #7080: Change: Cache stations and links for whole map for linkgraph GUI to eliminate delay when scrolling or zooming https://git.io/fh2LL
02:39<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy updated pull request #7080: Change: Cache stations and links for whole map for linkgraph GUI to eliminate delay when scrolling or zooming https://git.io/fh2LL
02:41<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy updated pull request #7080: Change: Cache stations and links for whole map for linkgraph GUI to eliminate delay when scrolling or zooming https://git.io/fh2LL
02:53<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy updated pull request #7080: Change: Cache stations and links for whole map for linkgraph GUI to eliminate delay when scrolling or zooming https://git.io/fh2LL
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03:03<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy updated pull request #7080: Change: Cache stations and links for whole map for linkgraph GUI to eliminate delay when scrolling or zooming https://git.io/fh2LL
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03:19<Wolf01>o/
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03:23<andythenorth>moin
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03:30<nielsm>hm nope, vs2019 still failing build
03:31<nielsm>okay upgrading projects to vs142 toolset makes at least some of them build
03:32<@peter1138>Damn us being economical with savegame versions. Version 182 is covers 3 separate changes.
03:32<@peter1138>-is
03:33<andythenorth>are we worried integers will run out?
03:34<Wolf01>Let's do the no-savegame-bump-on-nrt mistake again!
03:34<nielsm>it's 16 bit, should last a few months at least
03:34<nielsm>and it produces a working build
03:35<nielsm>I'll make a PR for vs2019 project files
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04:06*andythenorth spends hours making group liveries
04:07<nielsm>lol
04:10<andythenorth>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1217769#p1217769
04:14<Gabda>hi!
04:15<Gabda>tiles with the same y coordinate are called row, column or neither (as column is only defined in viewport for 45° rotated directions)?
04:17<Gabda>sometimes it is harder to find a good function name than to write the function...
04:21<@Alberth>don't think we have rows of tiles
04:22<@Alberth>in the viewport, we use north for center top of the screen
04:22<@Alberth>you can use x/y direction
04:22<@Alberth>or x/y row, perhaps
04:24<@Alberth>or x/y axis, which is used in the map code
04:24<Gabda>i want to find an tile while the Y coordinate is fixed (so the return value is the X coordinate)
04:25<Gabda>and I don't know if FindXInRow or FindXInColumn would be better
04:25<Gabda>or something else
04:26<@Alberth>FindYOnXAxis ?
04:27<@Alberth>too many uppercase letters :p
04:27<@Alberth>maybe you want to express the property of the returned tile?
04:27<@Alberth>ie FirstFreeTile or so
04:28<@Alberth>you usually don't look for a random y position
04:30<Gabda>yes, I go through a lot of y positions
04:30<@Alberth>what do you look for?
04:30<Gabda>FindXWHileY, or FindXWithY?
04:31<@Alberth>problem with such a name that it doesn't say what it looks for
04:32<Gabda>given two town, when selecting a row with fixed Y coordinate, find the X coordinate of the last tile that is closer to the fist town than the second
04:32<@Alberth>Do_x_with_y gives you no clues what the purpose is
04:32<@Alberth>where it comes in useful
04:33<@Alberth>find edge of town ?
04:34<Gabda>yes, but with a given y
04:34<@Alberth>that's mostly an implementation detail, a way of finding the edge
04:35<@Alberth>'town' is a bit ambiguous, could also be where the houses end
04:36<@Alberth>farthest town tile ?
04:36<@Alberth>town area tile?
04:36<nielsm>FindTownExtentsY ?
04:36<@Alberth>nice word :)
04:42<Gabda>I agree
04:43<Gabda>FindTownExtentAtY or ...InY?
04:43<nielsm>just Y, no In or At
04:44<nielsm>or do you mean FindTownExtentYatX ?
04:44<Gabda>and it would still imply that Y is fixed?
04:45<nielsm>i.e. given an X coordinate find the extent of a town in Y dimension along that X ?
04:45<nielsm>XatY and YatX
04:45<nielsm>for searching along X with fixed Y, or along Y with fixed X
04:45<Gabda>yes, such a nice description :D
04:47<Gabda>I will with this one, thank you very much :)
04:47<Gabda>*will go
04:49<@planetmaker>moin
04:49<@planetmaker>if you want the influence area of a town, maybe sth with 'local authority'?
04:50<Gabda>I want the whole town area, not just the local authority
04:50<@planetmaker>hu?
04:51<@planetmaker>the area of the local authority is always as big or bigger than the house-covered area
04:51<Gabda>I am making the town Voronoi diagram
05:05<@planetmaker>yes, ok... so what about town radius?
05:05<@planetmaker>or town zone radii?
05:05<@planetmaker>also there is area which does not belong to any local authority
05:08<nielsm>https://i.imgur.com/jXOaFVL.jpg
05:08<nielsm>actual photo
05:15<andythenorth>woo
05:15<andythenorth>china?
05:16<nielsm>turkey
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05:24<andythenorth>ctrl-click arbtitrary counter? :P
05:25<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened pull request #7107: Add: Visual Studio 2019 project files https://git.io/fhK6z
05:29<TrueBrain>Azure Pipelines can even forgot to queue some PRs if it took too long for it to queue ..
05:29<TrueBrain>we had a 12 hour old PR that was not queued
05:29<TrueBrain>but a 2 hour that was
05:29<TrueBrain>very odd
05:29<TrueBrain>I keep trying to find the URL that triggers the building :)
05:29<andythenorth>oofd
05:29<andythenorth>paid azure? :P
05:30<TrueBrain>it doesnt suggest that changes anything
05:33<LordAro>have you asked MS what's going on?
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05:35<TrueBrain>many people have; their answer is that you have to visit their page once a day
05:35<TrueBrain>but .. it is not 24h :P
05:35<LordAro>that is ....not a proper answer for a CI service
05:36<LordAro>i can't possibly imagine the people paying lots of money for pipelines have to do that
05:39<TrueBrain>most also use it for their git and bug tracking, I guess
05:39<TrueBrain>not sure
05:39<TrueBrain>investigation is slow, as I need to wait for it to break to look why it breaks :P
05:39<LordAro>mm
05:43<TrueBrain>so .... I tell DigitalOcean to scale up my k8s ... and nothing seems to be happening. hmmmmmm
05:48<TrueBrain>the overview page does tell me it scaled up, but nothing really happens :D
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05:54<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7107: Add: Visual Studio 2019 project files https://git.io/fhK6z
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05:58<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7107: Add: Visual Studio 2019 project files https://git.io/fhK6z
05:59<nielsm>lots of dumb little mistakes
06:00<nielsm>so how's the cmake conversion going? :)
06:01<nielsm>because I'm tempted to make some of those msbuild projects a bit less hacky
06:01<nielsm>(at least "settings" to have proper dependencies, could possibly also make "version" depend on something)
06:07<TrueBrain>you are going to port things to cmake I hear? Awesome :D
06:07<TrueBrain>here, a head-start: https://github.com/TrueBrain/OpenTTD/tree/cmake
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06:09<nielsm>hah no, don't feel like learning cmake at all
06:10<andythenorth>oof is Horse done yet? :P
06:10*andythenorth running out of motivation :D
06:11<TrueBrain>right
06:11<TrueBrain>going to bring the new website online I guess
06:12<andythenorth>hooray
06:14<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7107: Add: Visual Studio 2019 project files https://git.io/fhK6z
06:15<Borg>fast question.. w/ GCC is best to compile OpenTTD?
06:16<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain opened pull request #40: Release: 1.0.0 https://git.io/fhKPY
06:16<nielsm>Borg, our CI uses GCC 6
06:17<TrueBrain>I am curious what is going to break .. but the only way to find out is to do it, I guess ..
06:17<TrueBrain>andythenorth: should we make a news post about it, before we release it?
06:18<andythenorth>I guess we should :)
06:18<nielsm>TrueBrain imo yes, and make sure to tell users we do want reports about brokenness
06:18<andythenorth>what shall we say?
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06:19<nielsm>"Modernisation of the hosting infrastructure is proceeding, and we have just brought a new version of this main website online. If you find any problems with the new site please let us know at <places>"
06:20<nielsm>?
06:20<TrueBrain>andythenorth: lemme make a draft :)
06:20<TrueBrain>nice nielsm :)
06:23<nielsm>"If you find any trains stuck at signals please let us know, so we can resolve the issue safely without risk of crashes."
06:26<TrueBrain>that is a nice closing statement :D
06:26<TrueBrain>okay, lets see how my news looks ..
06:28<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain opened pull request #41: Add: [posts] new website and nightlies are back https://git.io/fhKP5
06:28<TrueBrain>all from the github interface :)
06:28<TrueBrain>that is pretty nice tbh
06:29<andythenorth>electro-diesel pax units? :P https://www.railengineer.uk/2018/09/27/bi-mode-good-tri-mode-better/
06:29<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain updated pull request #41: Add: [posts] new website and nightlies are back https://git.io/fhKP5
06:30<TrueBrain>andythenorth: anything to add to the post?
06:31<andythenorth>nope :)
06:32<nielsm>angry whistling over from the bird cage... should maybe let them out
06:32<TrueBrain>just one big FYI: adding news and merging it, only makes it show up on staging. A release + tag is needed before it hits production
06:32<TrueBrain>andythenorth: I was hinting that you maybe approve it then :P
06:32<andythenorth>oops
06:33<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/website] andythenorth approved pull request #41: Add: [posts] new website and nightlies are back https://git.io/fhKXc
06:33<TrueBrain>tnx :)
06:34<andythenorth>I approve the 1.0.0 tag?
06:34<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain merged pull request #41: Add: [posts] new website and nightlies are back https://git.io/fhKP5
06:34<TrueBrain>please do
06:34<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/website] andythenorth approved pull request #40: Release: 1.0.0 https://git.io/fhKXK
06:34<TrueBrain>I will wait for this news to land on staging, so we can check if it is really correct :D
06:38<nielsm>actually it just hits me, there is no archive of nightly builds on the website?
06:38<TrueBrain>https://www.staging.openttd.org/news/2019/01/26/new-website-and-nightlies-are-back.html LGTM :)
06:39<TrueBrain>nielsm: only if you know the URL, basically
06:39<nielsm>ok
06:39<TrueBrain>but that is a bit hidden, yes
06:39<TrueBrain>sounds like a nice PR, to show a listing of releases :)
06:39<TrueBrain>https://www.staging.openttd.org/downloads/openttd-releases/1.7.0.html
06:39<TrueBrain>for example
06:39<TrueBrain>we just rather publish links like https://www.staging.openttd.org/downloads/openttd-releases/latest.html
06:40<TrueBrain>as in general, people don't want a specific version
06:40<TrueBrain>just the latest
06:42<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain merged pull request #40: Release: 1.0.0 https://git.io/fhKPY
06:42<nielsm>hmm "supported compilers" in README.md is woefully out of date
06:43<TrueBrain>honestly, many things somewhat are :P
06:46<TrueBrain>can a CNAME point to a NS record?
06:46<TrueBrain>seems so
06:49<TrueBrain>okay, TTL of 1 hour .. right
06:50<TrueBrain>okay, it seems to be live
06:50<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7107: Add: Visual Studio 2019 project files https://git.io/fhK6z
06:50<TrueBrain>I cannot really test, as I have to wait for the TTL :D
06:54<Xaroth>on the new site the serverlist points to server.openttd.org, right?
06:54<Xaroth>if so, it works for me.
06:56<TrueBrain>and if not? :P Isn't it more important that the content is correct?
06:56<TrueBrain>:D
06:56<Xaroth>bit silly to test on the wrong environment.
06:56<Xaroth>but it looks correct
06:57<TrueBrain>a few 404s are hitting ..
06:57<TrueBrain>favicon.ico ..
06:57<nielsm>forgot that one? :D
06:57<TrueBrain>no, it is in the /static/ folder
06:57<TrueBrain>but some people always want it from the root folder
06:58<TrueBrain>ah, and the download URL is not correct if you come in from google
06:58<TrueBrain>did not expect things to link to that URL
07:02<andythenorth>live for me :D
07:03<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain opened pull request #42: Fix: also redirect some older URLs to the correct locations https://git.io/fhKyK
07:03<andythenorth>I got 9 links 404ing
07:04<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain updated pull request #42: Fix: also redirect some older URLs to the correct locations https://git.io/fhKyK
07:04<TrueBrain>which are?
07:04<TrueBrain>(fucking cliffhangers)
07:04<andythenorth>making an issue
07:04<TrueBrain>:P
07:04<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/website] andythenorth opened issue #43: 404s https://git.io/fhKyP
07:04<andythenorth>I can improve the issue
07:05<TrueBrain>download-all will no longer be supported; I am fine with that
07:05<TrueBrain>guess I should make the \w\w optional in the redirects
07:05<TrueBrain>my regex foo is not that good
07:05<andythenorth>some of these are links in news post etc
07:05<andythenorth>I can fix the content, or you can fix the paths?
07:06<TrueBrain>lets fix the content of the news articles to point to the new URLs
07:06<andythenorth>I'll start on that
07:06<TrueBrain>ideally, I would like to remove these redirects some day
07:06<TrueBrain>:)
07:06<TrueBrain>tnx!
07:07<TrueBrain>^/\w\w/download-stable/(.*)$ <- how to make the \w\w/ optional .. hmm
07:07<TrueBrain>^/(\w\w/)?download-stable/(.*)$ I guess ..
07:07<LordAro>omg, website happened
07:08<andythenorth>https://www.openttd.org/download-stable -> https://www.openttd.org/downloads/openttd-releases/latest.html
07:08<andythenorth>?
07:09<TrueBrain>yes
07:09<TrueBrain>can someone please review this: https://github.com/OpenTTD/website/pull/42 :)
07:09<andythenorth>https://www.openttd.org/download-testing goes where now? https://www.openttd.org/downloads/openttd-nightlies/latest.html
07:10<TrueBrain>testing is also releases
07:10<TrueBrain>so https://www.openttd.org/downloads/openttd-releases/latest.html
07:10<andythenorth>ta
07:11<TrueBrain> "GET /download-trunk HTTP/1.1" 404 3695 "http://127.0.0.1:4000/news/2009/12/11/graphics-and-sound-replacement-complete.html" <- lol :D
07:11<TrueBrain>referer is funny
07:13<TrueBrain>owh, no robots.txt
07:16<andythenorth>http://www.openttd.org/download-openttd-useful -> ?
07:17<LordAro>releases/latest, probably
07:17<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain updated pull request #42: Fix: also redirect some older URLs to the correct locations https://git.io/fhKyK
07:17<TrueBrain>andythenorth: https://www.staging.openttd.org/downloads/openttd-useful/latest.html
07:17<LordAro>or that
07:17<TrueBrain>(add /en/ between the URL to find out, btw)
07:18<TrueBrain>okay, made the language tag optional for downloads; that should fix all 404s from the outside for now
07:18<TrueBrain>euh .. this is wrong .. lol
07:19<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain updated pull request #42: Fix: also redirect some older URLs to the correct locations https://git.io/fhKyK
07:19<TrueBrain>now it needs a review :)
07:21<TrueBrain>hmm .. this language tag is really annoying :D
07:21<TrueBrain>why did we ever do that? :P
07:22<LordAro>was there anything other than /en ? could just globally remove that then redirect from the "base"
07:22<LordAro>might make things simpler
07:22<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #6682: menu bars disappear if enable windows screen scaling on high dpi monitors https://git.io/fhKSh
07:22<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain updated pull request #42: Fix: also redirect some older URLs to the correct locations https://git.io/fhKyK
07:22<TrueBrain>LordAro: yes; others exist
07:22<TrueBrain>just not as public
07:22<TrueBrain>but I wanted to avoid redirects from the base, as that might make future things annoying as fuck
07:23<LordAro>mm, true
07:23<TrueBrain>for example, old URL is /en/news, new is /en/news/
07:23<TrueBrain>euh
07:23<TrueBrain>for example, old URL is /en/news, new is /news/
07:23<TrueBrain>so I am very picky on which to support without /en/ :P
07:23<TrueBrain>and I am not aiming for 100%
07:23<TrueBrain>but supporting google results sounds useful :D
07:23<andythenorth>some kittens may die
07:31<andythenorth>err
07:31<andythenorth>wtf?
07:32<andythenorth>nvm
07:32<andythenorth>replacing a url in the wrong dir
07:33<TrueBrain>LordAro: mind approviing/rejecting my PR? I really could use some second pair of eyes on it :)
07:33<TrueBrain>I tested it, ofc, but .. meh :P Regex!
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07:36<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/website] andythenorth opened pull request #44: Fix: replace outdated urls, preventing linkrot and 404s https://git.io/fhK9n
07:36<andythenorth>most just find-replace
07:36<andythenorth>one url took 10 mins due to user error :P
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07:37<TrueBrain>hmm .. if we didn't have them prefixed with www.openttd.org, we would have spotted this on staging :D
07:38<TrueBrain>andythenorth: _posts/2009-12-11-graphics-and-sound-replacement-complete.html <- should be nightlies, but meh
07:38<TrueBrain>who cares :P
07:38<andythenorth>nobody
07:39<TrueBrain>but yeah, some day we should just remove the www.openttd.org from all the URLs
07:39<TrueBrain>but no prio there
07:40<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain merged pull request #44: Fix: replace outdated urls, preventing linkrot and 404s https://git.io/fhK9n
07:40<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain closed issue #43: Some news items hit 404s now the website is live https://git.io/fhKyP
07:40<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain merged pull request #42: Fix: also redirect some older URLs to the correct locations https://git.io/fhKyK
07:40<TrueBrain>right, lets yolo this
07:40<andythenorth>I rebased and everything :P
07:40<andythenorth>squashed and reworded
07:41*andythenorth no longer a git clown
07:41<TrueBrain>:D
07:41<andythenorth>still all just branch merges at work though
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07:41<andythenorth>master, milestone, feature <- merges
07:42<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain opened pull request #45: Release: 1.0.1 https://git.io/fhK9z
07:43<TrueBrain>so .. who is going to tweet this ?
07:43<TrueBrain>planetmaker ? :)
07:44<TrueBrain>lol .. I merged too quickly
07:44<TrueBrain>it will first deploy a new version now, than an older :D
07:44<TrueBrain>then
07:44<TrueBrain>ffs
07:45<andythenorth>Pikka poke
07:45<Pikka>pokka huh?
07:46<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain merged pull request #45: Release: 1.0.1 https://git.io/fhK9z
07:46<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain closed issue #36: Screenshot on frontpage is not latest https://git.io/fhr1M
07:47<TrueBrain>okay, this should be online in a few minutes ...
07:51<TrueBrain>there we go
07:51<TrueBrain>andythenorth: run your checker again! :D
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07:55<andythenorth>running
07:55<andythenorth>so...does anyone know how railtypes work? :P
07:55<andythenorth>Pikka: o_O
07:55<andythenorth>TrueBrain: "853 of 853 links checked, 0 bad"
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>so... does anyone know how metaquestions work?
07:55<Pikka>they work... okay?
07:56<TrueBrain>andythenorth: cool, tnx
07:56<andythenorth>I am considering a FEATURE
07:56<andythenorth>industrial rail tracks
07:56<andythenorth>RAIL can go on INRL
07:56<andythenorth>but INRL can't go on RAIL
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>why?
07:56<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN approved pull request #7107: Add: Visual Studio 2019 project files https://git.io/fhK9H
07:57<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: right question but wrong question :)
07:57<TrueBrain>okay, only missing robots.txt now :D
07:57<andythenorth>hooray
07:57<andythenorth>favicons work
07:57<andythenorth>?
07:57<TrueBrain>yup
07:57<Eddi|zuHause>that would only make sense if you could give it some benefits, like behaving like road vehicles (no collision, signals)
07:57<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: yes wouldn't it
07:58<andythenorth>so is it an NRT thing?
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>well, we already have HEQS?
07:59<andythenorth>my goal is specific to FIRS Steeltown currently, i.e. steel mill trains
07:59<andythenorth>but I don't want to have to provide specific engines for the wagons
07:59<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN opened pull request #7108: Feature: Group liveries, and livery window usability enhancements. https://git.io/fhK9F
07:59<andythenorth>if I could have cross-compatible engines, I just need INRL wagons
07:59<TrueBrain>lol ... hits on dowloads.php ... that is 15+ years old ..
08:00<TrueBrain>guess we can just say: fuck this :)
08:00<andythenorth>we get Apache hits all the time for .php paths
08:00<andythenorth>none of them exist, nor ever have
08:00<TrueBrain>mixedfeed.php :P
08:00<TrueBrain>those have existed
08:00<andythenorth>login.php :P
08:00<TrueBrain>YEARS ago :)
08:00<andythenorth>we = work, not ottd :P
08:00<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: just drop .php ending with a redirect?
08:00<TrueBrain>I understood :)
08:01<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: I think I am fine with returning 404s
08:01<TrueBrain>if after 15 years you are still using an old URL .. it is time to make you a bit more aware :P
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>probably some automated script that even the author isn't aware of anymore
08:02<TrueBrain>exactly
08:02<TrueBrain>Tiny Tiny RSS is one
08:02<Eddi|zuHause>so even if the redirect succeeds, the script will probably fail on the different structure of the page
08:02<TrueBrain>and more of those bot-like
08:03<andythenorth>can't have this in your passenger station :P https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0600/7521/products/photo1_6b5a802c-e62a-4a4b-af9b-00bac9746b7f_1024x1024.jpg?v=1419883548
08:03<Pikka>andythenorth: the biggest problem with coding railtypes is the number of people who will whinge at you that you're not using the "standard" labels
08:03<TrueBrain>Load Balancer tells me the average request duration is 50k ms :D (no typo)
08:04<andythenorth>isn't one-way cross-compatibility still impossible?
08:04<TrueBrain>(we use keep alive between Load Balancer and httpd :P)
08:04<@peter1138>Pikka, 64 rail types!
08:04<andythenorth>peter1138 was fixing that for railtypes :D ^^^
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>huh? why would one-way compatibility be impossible?
08:04<Pikka>does adding inrl to the rail compatible rail type list not work?
08:05<Pikka>elrl and rail are one-way compatible :)
08:05<andythenorth>doesn't it make INRL -> RAIL?
08:05<andythenorth>we went round this with NRT
08:05<andythenorth>making ROAD vehicles HAUL compatible makes all HAUL vehicles ROAD compatible
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: your main problem will be loading your railtype alongside a different trackset
08:06<andythenorth>won't be my problem :)
08:06<andythenorth>I don't use tracksets
08:06<andythenorth>mumble mumble https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/5006
08:07<Eddi|zuHause>then it maybe is better that you don't make one :p
08:09<Pikka>personally, I'd just add a steel mill shunter and keep the track types completely separate, if I did it at all
08:09<TrueBrain>okay .. website seems to be doing fine. Traffic is up, no more 404s .. sweet :D
08:09<TrueBrain>tnx a lot andythenorth for all the help with porting it etc :D
08:10<Pikka>I mean, if your goal is to stop people running steel through passenger stations - with rail -> inrl, what's stopping them running their passenger trains through the steel mill?
08:12<@peter1138>andythenorth, yeah could do it now
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>i'd just add the steel wagons to HEQS in both tram and rail style, and leave the player with all the options
08:13<LordAro>TrueBrain: huzzah
08:13<@peter1138>I'm off to visit the MiL in hospital again, will be able to fiddle in the evening on the laptop.
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>and if you want to make industrial rail, make it visual only, fully compatible with RAIL (and fully optional)
08:14<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on issue #5006: Railtypes: 'hide railtype' flag https://git.io/fhKHZ
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08:25<andythenorth>so the main thing I want to solve
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08:26<andythenorth>is 100mph torpedo wagons http://www.trainweb.org/pbne/images/hot%20metal%20cars/65.01.jpg
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08:26<andythenorth>lots of Horse is fake, but it seems 1 fake too far
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08:27<SomeIndianGuy_>Ani
08:28<Wolf01>andythenorth, why you don't make 2 different grfs?
08:29<Pikka>"solve" in what way, andy? wagon speed limits aren't enough?
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08:33<andythenorth>they are, but then my network is messed up by slow trains :P
08:33<andythenorth>in my happy fantasy world, these wagons are like Horse metro trains
08:33<andythenorth>slower than normal, but insane capacity per tile
08:34<andythenorth>but eh, I can't be arsed to draw a full set of wagons and stuff just for that
08:41<Eddi|zuHause>i don't understand the problem
08:42<Eddi|zuHause>you can build separate lines for slow trains even without there being a separate track type
08:42<Eddi|zuHause>also, like i said, put the wagon into HEQS instead of horse, it fits much better there
08:43<TrueBrain>11 people already downloaded the latest nightly! :P
08:44<andythenorth>:)
08:44<Wolf01>Oh, nightlies!
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: might be time for an announcement?
08:44<andythenorth>oof I think my requests for steel mill trains in UKRS are why pikka made Pineapple and deleted all the trains :P
08:45<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: yeah ... you properly want to go to www.openttd.org .... :P
08:45*andythenorth might be mis-remembering
08:45<Pikka>doesn't ring a bell
08:45<Wolf01>It seem I should compose a new riddle for the announcement
08:45<nielsm>https://twitter.com/ppathole/status/1088844771966238721?s=21
08:45<Pikka>steel mill trains are odd though
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: it's not april 1st yet
08:46<Pikka>they're really part of the industry rather than "transport"
08:46<andythenorth>I broke that with FIRS Steeltown :)
08:46<andythenorth>you get to move stuff around between parts of the process
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>i'll maintain that HEQS is the place for specialized transport methods like this
08:47<TrueBrain>hmm .. I have no clue how to run something like webalizer over the new logs ..
08:47<TrueBrain>and google is not helping :(
08:47<andythenorth>are they not just apache logs?
08:47<TrueBrain>somewhat, but yeah
08:48<TrueBrain>just you would think others have foundout how to do that best on k8s
08:48<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I re-phrase my problem....
08:48<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7108: Feature: Group liveries, and livery window usability enhancements. https://git.io/fhKQR
08:48<andythenorth>- given a train grf that has a vehicle-and-railtype schema that appears to work....
08:49<andythenorth>- where else can I insert more fun stuff without degrading the overall playability? :P
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08:49<andythenorth>that is really the question
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>how would that change my answer?
08:49<andythenorth>might not
08:49<andythenorth>I can't see how to make industrial stuff work except via NRT
08:50<andythenorth>I manged to jam high speed trains into Horse though, with care
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>maglev?
08:50<andythenorth>no
08:50<andythenorth>conventional rail, no new types
08:50<andythenorth>but I reset the speeds lower down the roster
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>high-speed as in TGV/Eurostar?
08:50<andythenorth>yes
08:51<andythenorth>required rebalancing lots of other stuff, but works
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>a 1990 version and a 2020 version?
08:51<andythenorth>yes
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>sounds fine to me so far
08:51<andythenorth>yeah, but industrial rail is unconvcing
08:51<andythenorth>so I think I put it out
08:52<Eddi|zuHause>i'd say scrap all your ideas for industrial rail
08:52<andythenorth>so is NRT done yet? o_O
08:52<Eddi|zuHause>make your wagons generic enough to carry all cargos in each generation
08:53<andythenorth>NRT PR is stale, and should really be closed https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6811
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08:54<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i'd say keep off on that until after release dust settled and people got time to consider bigger PRs
08:55<andythenorth>so do we have a changelog for nightly vs. 1.8.0?
08:55<nielsm>https://www.openttd.org/contact.html <- are the mirrors still relevant?
08:55<nielsm>with the new infra
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think the mirrors have changed
08:56<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #7107: Add: Visual Studio 2019 project files https://git.io/fhK6z
08:57<andythenorth>LordAro: you started a changelog for 1.9.0?
08:58<LordAro>andythenorth: https://gist.github.com/LordAro/71085728a63bb7cb2e07b4f222e3fefd
08:58<LordAro>still needs signficantly cutting down, imo
08:59*andythenorth considering a forum post about what's in the nightly
08:59<andythenorth>features
09:00<LordAro>and some changes, probably
09:01<nielsm>and a crash bug in mapgen?
09:01<andythenorth>I'm going to pick out a TL;DR headlines
09:02<Eddi|zuHause>"Remove: PSP, WinCE support"
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>dangit, i wanted to try putting it on a WinCE device :p
09:03<nielsm>hm do I still have a phone running windows mobile 7?
09:03<nielsm>:)
09:09<LordAro>andythenorth: updated gist slightly to update it up to today
09:11<nielsm>maybe put the added currencies together
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09:12<LordAro>oh, forgot about the other one
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>not having looked over the list, remember to cut out "fix"es for things that weren't broken in 1.8.0 yet
09:13<LordAro>it's not verbatim :p
09:13<LordAro>i think i caught most of those already
09:15<TrueBrain>14:55 <nielsm> https://www.openttd.org/contact.html <- are the mirrors still relevant? <- for now, yes. I have yet to move everything from the mirrors to the CDN
09:15<TrueBrain>will take a few weeks before I get to that
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09:18<andythenorth>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1217791#p1217791
09:19<andythenorth>oof, isn't there an axle load feature in railtypes? o_O
09:22<nielsm>oooh, idea for how to waste a lot of the free landscape array space for rail tiles: count how much load has travelled over the piece of rail, and on tile ticks that calculate maintenance costs include that load amount in the calculation
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09:22<Pikka>only in the "standardized railtype scheme" D:
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09:23<Pikka>"Still not convinced? Feel free to use railtype labels of your own, but know that you will likely come to regret that at some point in the future."
09:26<Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> oof, isn't there an axle load feature in railtypes? o_O <-- not as a property, it's all "fake"
09:27<andythenorth>ha ha
09:27*andythenorth briefly considered a really over-powered version of narrow gauge
09:31<Pikka>monorail?
09:31<Pikka>the narrowest of gauges
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09:33<nielsm>is monorail infinitely narrow or infinitely wide?
09:34<andythenorth>both
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>have you ever looked at a monorail? it is narrow, but far from "infinite"
09:34<andythenorth>the gauge though
09:35<nielsm>and are those suspended monorails actually monorails or more like one-and-a-half rail maybe
09:35<nielsm>and is a cable lift up a mountainside a rail?
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10:35<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] alexanderweiss commented on issue #6800: [OSX] NSScrollWheel event handling for 2D scrolling should use scrollingDeltaX/Y https://git.io/fhKFE
10:44<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] alexanderweiss opened pull request #7109: [OSX] Use high-precision scrolling properties for 2D scrolling https://git.io/fhKFD
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10:47<supermop_Home>yo
10:48<andythenorth>yo
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10:52<Pikka>yoyo
10:55<Borg>techno electro.... yo yo yo.. ;)
10:57<TrueBrain>so I see a 404 ... "GET /xmlrpc.php HTTP/1.1"
10:57<TrueBrain>so I look at the UA
10:57<TrueBrain>"Gecko/20100101 Firefox/4.0.1"
10:57<TrueBrain>yeah .... we are not the only one who can be slow in updates :P
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10:58<nielsm>TrueBrain, I think that's someone trying to exploit wordpress :)
10:59<TrueBrain>we used to have that xmlrpc.php
10:59<TrueBrain>it was used to communicate with the IRC bot
10:59<TrueBrain>just no clue why any Firefox would ever reach out for it :P
10:59<TrueBrain>especially one from 2010 :P
11:00<nielsm>https://0x0.st/sCY0.ogg <- left channel ttd dos in dosbox, right channel my reimplementation of the adlib music driver
11:00<nielsm>timing is _almost_ correct
11:00<TrueBrain>okay .. now I want IRC notification when a new nightly is produced ...
11:01<nielsm>and it also seems to sound right
11:01<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #7110: Add: more options for translators https://git.io/fhKba
11:01<TrueBrain>nice :D
11:01<+glx>that's something I noticed yesterday while working on newgrf window
11:02<TrueBrain>nielsm: timing gets more and more off the longer it goes on :P
11:02<TrueBrain>which gives a nice tune to it, tbh :P
11:02<nielsm>TrueBrain yes my tempo is slightly wrong
11:03<TrueBrain>nobody would ever notice it, if they dont put it side to side
11:03<TrueBrain>but yeah :P
11:04<+glx>sounds nice too me
11:04<+glx>*to
11:05<andythenorth>hmm
11:05<nielsm>@calc 77.748 / 77.916
11:05<@DorpsGek>nielsm: 0.997843831819
11:05<andythenorth>Pikka: got any super zoom train progress then? o_O
11:05<nielsm>ratio
11:05<nielsm>mine is too slow by
11:05<+glx>by almost nothing
11:06<nielsm>uh too fast by
11:06<+glx>less than 1%
11:06<+glx>good enough I'd say
11:07<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7108: Feature: Group liveries, and livery window usability enhancements. https://git.io/fhKbH
11:08<Pikka>only bits and pieces, andythenorth
11:08<Pikka>only one more freight wagon to go and they're all at least partially done :D
11:08<andythenorth>I am trying to get inspired to finish the Horses
11:11<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7110: Add: more options for translators https://git.io/fhKbd
11:14<nielsm>but yeah I'm considering to attempt to make/find a full general midi patchset for opl3 synth and letting my adlib music patch also play back regular midi files
11:14<nielsm>for the heck of it
11:14<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7110: Add: more options for translators https://git.io/fhKNe
11:17<supermop_Home>group livery huh
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11:21<andythenorth>why doesn't the clone button show on vehicles if game is paused? o_O
11:23<Samu>I don't feel confident of my code :|
11:24<Samu>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pungzsg9l
11:25<Samu>i guess i'm multi purposing the function too much
11:27<Samu>if helicopter doesn't need automatic servicing but has a pending replace and service at helipad is enabled...
11:28<andythenorth>where is V453000? :P https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1217795#p1217795
11:29<Samu>... then search for a hangar
11:30<Samu>if helicopter needs automatic servicing but doesn't have a pending replace and service at helipad is enabled...
11:30<LordAro>@seen V453000
11:30<@DorpsGek>LordAro: V453000 was last seen in #openttd 3 weeks, 4 days, 1 hour, 19 minutes, and 22 seconds ago: <V453000> :0
11:31<Samu>... and if there are helipads at the station, then don't search for a hangar, service at helipad
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11:32<Samu>if I'm not a helicopter, I am assuming that airports have hangars
11:33<Samu>... go to the hangar of the airport i'm heading to in the current destination
11:34<supermop_Home>should I get an external dvd drive for my surface so I can install 10 year old version of photoshop?
11:35<nielsm>hmm :P
11:35<nielsm>I'd first look into capturing an image of the disc somewhere else and transferring it over network
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_Home: external DVD drives is for noobs, i once installed win95 from a CD onto a computer with no CD drive, by copying the install files onto diskettes swapping back and forth with a computer that had one
11:37<+glx>yeah make an iso of the disc and get it via network, windows natively support iso
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11:42<Samu>what should be the behaviour of helicopters that needs to service but have no pending replace and their closest hangar is in the other side of the world?
11:43<Samu>assume service at helipads is disabled
11:43<+glx>destination too far, abort
11:43<+glx>and blame the player ;)
11:43<Samu>ok, then I'm in the right direction after all
11:44<Samu>current behaviour makes them go to the other side of the world to service
11:45<Samu>now a similar question
11:45<Samu>what should be the behaviour of helicopters that have a pending replace and their closest hangar is in the other side of the world?
11:46<andythenorth>too far
11:46<+glx>same, if the hangar is out of range, it's too far
11:46<Samu>oh, but it's a one-time service
11:46<+glx>the player should place the hangars correctly
11:47<nielsm>if the aircraft has a route between stations with no hangars, it can receive no service
11:47<nielsm>very simple
11:47<Samu>you're aware that autoreplace/autorenew would never happen then
11:47<nielsm>yes that sure sucks for the player
11:47<nielsm>they should have been less dumb
11:48<+glx>helistations exist for a reason ;)
11:50<Samu>hmmm but one could argue that aircraft can go anywhere
11:50<Samu>and this a one-time service, it not going into a service interval
11:51<Samu>of 100 days
11:51<Samu>but of 20 years or whatever their lifetime is
11:52<nielsm>don't make vehicles go somewhere the player didn't want them to
11:53<Samu>considering the current behaviour, it's gonna be a shift
11:53<Samu>on master, they will go to the other side of the world for service/autorenew
12:04<nielsm>if it was still possible to build a dos version of ottd (I'm not sure djgpp is updated with c++11?) I wonder if it would be possible to have it load and call the original music drivers...
12:04<nielsm>(for the heck of it)
12:04<Samu>hum... the helicopter situation is very delicate
12:05<LordAro>i have no issues with weird situations (i.e. the only depot is on the other side of the map), if just should be consistent
12:06<LordAro>if there was only one train depot on the whole map, you wouldn't be surprised when the train made a massive detour to go to it
12:07<LordAro>repeat for all transport types
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>IIRC servicing is skipped if the depot is too far away for trains
12:07<Samu>but trains automatic servicing has a max cost
12:07<Samu>yes what Eddi|zuHause said
12:08<LordAro>well ok, aircraft should do the same
12:08<LordAro>depending on what determines "too far"
12:08<+glx>I think too far should be the same as the distance check between airports
12:09<Samu>it involves a lot of variables... the aircraft's own max range, the service interval being too short or too lengthy, the service at helipad setting, breakdowns enabled
12:10<Samu>it's a mix of variables that would have to present an elegant behaviour
12:10<LordAro>i don't think any of that is really relevant
12:10<LordAro>just look at what trains do, and replicate it
12:11<nielsm>step 1: ignore the "service at helipad" setting, pretend it's always disabled
12:11<Samu>the own station having hangar or not
12:11<nielsm>it's a bad hack introduced by ttdpatch which nobody should be using for new games
12:11<LordAro>could remove the setting :>
12:11<LordAro>everyone's always saying how there are too many settings
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12:12<nielsm>you can still have landing at helipads reset the service counter if the setting is enablæed, just don't take the setting into account for service planning
12:12<nielsm>i.e. don't send a heli to a helipad (with no hangar) for service
12:13<+glx>yeah makes sense
12:13<+glx>service order should need a real service
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12:19<andythenorth>hmm
12:19<andythenorth>could add high-speed railtype
12:19<andythenorth>curve speed bonus
12:19<andythenorth>fancy appearance
12:19<andythenorth>TMWFTLB? o_O
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: just use nutracks?
12:25<andythenorth>that too
12:26<andythenorth>outsourcing
12:26<andythenorth>unrelated: why does the aircraft stuff need changing?
12:28<Samu>to fix #6493
12:30<Samu>more specifically, what peter1138 wrote there
12:30<Samu>the service interval is the cause
12:31<Samu>but more problems arise when the service interval is no longer the issue, like going out of the way to depots on the other side of the world
12:35<Samu>i'm more inclined into allowing them go around the world if it's a pending replace, but if it's only a service, keep them in-place unserviced
12:36<Samu>or service based on DistanceSquare
12:37<Samu>line 51 and 53 https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pungzsg9l#line-51
12:38<Gabda>I've managed to do the town voronoi "map" :)
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>via flood fill or via triangulation?
12:39<Gabda>all that is left is make the code presentable, which is about twice the effort of the coding...
12:39<andythenorth>oof
12:39<Gabda>a type of floodfill
12:39*andythenorth has had a horrible idea
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>just one?
12:40<andythenorth>well
12:40<Gabda>I cannot find the method of triangulation on Manhattan distances
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>Gabda: voronoi really only works with euclidean
12:41<andythenorth>so one idea was that we just be done with ship pathfinding nonsense on open water
12:42<andythenorth>and add tile-based sea routes
12:42<andythenorth>we can already build canal on water, so eh :P
12:42<andythenorth>but do them like roads, so companies can share
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12:42<Gabda>you have pay to pacify the ocean?
12:42<Gabda>(on specific tiles)
12:43<andythenorth>kinda
12:43<andythenorth>that wasn't the horrible idea though
12:43<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that would work, but you would give up the really nice property of "just slap down docks and go" of ships
12:44<andythenorth>yes
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>which i would give -1
12:44<andythenorth>it would only work if there was some kind of polyline tool, which I tried the patch for on rails, and dislike
12:46<Gabda>Eddi|zuHause: I used something like the Fortune's sweep line algorithm
12:46<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it could work implicitly, upon changing ship orders, it calculates a path and then "builds" the ship path, then pathfinding only works on ship path tiles instead of open sea tiles
12:48<Gabda>but I only kept the sweep line part
12:48<Samu>pretending serviceathelipad doesn't exist is difficult... it is the main cause of this fix
12:48<Gabda>fill everything where the line swept, and if a new town gets in, floodfill the already swept area
12:49<Gabda>what functions should I use to measure the time of the filling?
12:49<Samu>of this bug, i meant
12:50<nielsm>Gabda: https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/framerate_type.h
12:50<nielsm>you can add a temporary performance element there for your own testing
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12:51<Samu>canal water is too alike sea water
12:51<Samu>would be hard to distinguish
12:51<Samu>visually
12:52<Gabda>nielsm: it works with one time events as well?
12:53<Gabda>I only want to print a runtime into the console
12:53<andythenorth>so the actual horrible idea
12:54<andythenorth>give train + road + sea tiles a 'wear factor' byte
12:54<andythenorth>degrade it statistically as vehicles pass over it
12:54<andythenorth>and in the spec, allow for vehicles with a negative wear factor
12:54<andythenorth>allow maintenance cost to read the wear factor
12:55<andythenorth>and provide optional tables for things like speed limit vs. wear factor
12:55<andythenorth>also allow modifying a consist breakdown chance on wear factor :P
12:55<andythenorth>so 'normal' vehicles increase wear, but maintenance trains, snow ploughs, dredgers ettc reduce it
12:56<Gabda>and wear factor for rail signals, and after some time, they give a wrong signal?
12:56<andythenorth>:P
12:56<andythenorth>I prefer nielsm's idea of requiring signal boxes :)
12:57<Samu>buoys
12:59<Gabda>Samu: how did you measure the time when you sent the ~5000 ships to the depot?
12:59<nielsm>Gabda ah if it's not a repeating thing just do whatever I guess
12:59<Gabda>with the built in framerate?
12:59<nielsm>the <chrono> std header is decent
12:59<Gabda>ok, thanks, I'll look into it
12:59<nielsm>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/framerate_gui.cpp#L196
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13:10<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy commented on issue #7042: Use intrinsics for bit twiddling? https://git.io/fhKhm
13:10<supermop_Home>why do lime kilns keep building on top of hills
13:14<supermop_Home>andythenorth: give lime kilns an owner byte - every tick that the lime kiln is on top of the mountain increases a counter, when it reaches some value the manager has a nervous breakdown because he built his kiln in an inaccessible wilderness
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13:15<andythenorth>oof
13:15<andythenorth>supermop_Home: build canal locks up to them :P
13:15<andythenorth>ships don't feel the gradient
13:19<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #7111: Codechange: Rework automatic service for helicopters (#6493) https://git.io/fhKhu
13:19<Samu>i tried to explain the best I could
13:19<Samu>what do you say?
13:21<Samu>my english needs fixing
13:21<Samu>i be
13:21<Samu>lieve
13:21<Samu>yeah, terrible terrible english
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>Gabda: we used to have TIC and TOC
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13:28<Samu>just edited with better english, hopefully it's clearer
13:28<nielsm>made some more recordings from dosbox and my code and aligned them: https://0x0.st/sC6_.ogg
13:28<nielsm>also timestretched my output a bit to match them better
13:29<nielsm>I think they're close enough to identical, so might clean up for PR soon :P
13:29<supermop_Home>I really just need PS, ID and illustrator for a couple days to put together this donut kiosk design package
13:30<supermop_Home>i guess i could just do it after hours at the office
13:31<Samu>damn it, i always forget this aircraft_cmd.cpp:448:139: warning: '&&' within '||' [-Wlogical-op-parentheses]
13:33<nielsm>it's a warning because nobody can ever remember which of those binds tighter
13:34<nielsm>so everyone puts parentheses around the subexpressions to make their own intention clear and make sure they don't get bugs for misremembering
13:35<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7111: Codechange: Rework automatic service for helicopters (#6493) https://git.io/fhKhu
13:36<Samu>fixed
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13:38<Simons_Mith>Looking at interest rates/inflation...
13:38<Simons_Mith>It says:
13:38<Simons_Mith>void StartupEconomy() { _economy.interest_rate = _settings_game.difficulty.initial_interest; _economy.infl_amount = _settings_game.difficulty.initial_interest; _economy.infl_amount_pr = max(0, _settings_game.difficulty.initial_interest - 1);
13:39<@peter1138>Evening.
13:39<Simons_Mith>In english, inflation rate in% = interest rate in %, inflation rate for payments = interest rate -1 in %
13:40<Simons_Mith>So if you've got an interest rate of 2%, doesn't that make the game harder than if you had interest rate of say 8%
13:40<@peter1138>Yes.
13:40<Simons_Mith>That doesn't seem fair
13:40<nielsm>harder in the late game, easier in the early game
13:41<nielsm>since interest rate usually only matters in the first few years
13:41<@peter1138>It's a bug in the original game, I guess. Easy settings make inflation hard, hard settings make inflation easier...
13:42<Simons_Mith>When do you count 'late' game as starting?
13:42<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7108: Feature: Group liveries, and livery window usability enhancements. https://git.io/fhKjn
13:42<Simons_Mith>I'd have said after 75 years at least
13:43<@peter1138>model name : Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU P7450 @ 2.13GHz
13:43<@peter1138>I could do with a better laptop :/
13:44<Simons_Mith>I just tried a 1800s game with 2% interest rates and inflation on, and those settings started to hurt after just 25 years
13:44<@peter1138>Yup.
13:44<nielsm>I should probably go import the dbopl.cpp emulator instead, it doesn't make stupid DC offsets the ken silverman one does... https://0x0.st/sC6Y.png
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, don't play with interest rates before 1920
13:44<@peter1138>nielsm, you can filter the DC offsets quite easily, IIRC.
13:45<@peter1138>Most people play with inflation off.
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>you need technological advancement to combat the inflation
13:45<nielsm>peter1138 sure, but the dbopl emulator is probably more accurate regardless
13:45<Gabda>Eddi|zuHause: TIC TOC works fine. How can I interpret the outcome? 5,3 million is small?
13:45<@peter1138>It should probably be changed to be more useful.
13:45<Simons_Mith>Indeed. Or fix the bug.
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>Gabda: no idea
13:46<Borg>peter1138: what inflation is suppose to do? to the gameplay?
13:47<Samu>inflation is fine if every company starts at the same date
13:47<Samu>but if one picks up in the middle of a game session, it sucks
13:47<Borg>I never use it personaly...
13:47<Simons_Mith>I was pondering making interest rates variable in-game, y'see.
13:47<Simons_Mith> I also know about the 170-year cutoff, because prices get too out of whack
13:48<@peter1138>Bah, laptop powered off :/
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>@calc (1.04/1.03)**170
13:48<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 5.16820201339
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>@calc (1.02/1.01)**170
13:48<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 5.33821002416
13:48<@peter1138>Borg, it adjusts costs to make the game harder later.
13:48<Simons_Mith>But if youtook out the -1 in the infl_amount_pr, payments and prices would grow at the same rate and inflation would be mostly cosmetic#
13:49<@peter1138>Simons_Mith, quite.
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>the long term difference isn't really that big
13:49<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 requested changes for pull request #7110: Add: more options for translators https://git.io/fhKjr
13:49<@peter1138>I think it could be fixed by making one of the rates fixed, and the other variable.
13:49<@peter1138>So the difference is larger on hard settings.
13:49<Borg>peter1138: hmm an idea.. instead of inflation... reduce payments slowly?
13:50<@peter1138>Although, I don't think those easy/hard settings exist any more :p
13:50<Borg>so prices will stay the same... but game gets harder and harder
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>there should also be a loan interest that is higher
13:50<@peter1138>Yeah, loan interest is silly.
13:50<nielsm>nah you do want to increase costs rather than decrease payments, otherwise you get rounding errors becoming significant in payments
13:51<@peter1138>^
13:51<@peter1138>Yeah, our money values are integers.
13:51<Borg>ah..
13:51<Borg>ok
13:51<@peter1138>You'd end up earning nothing.
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>there was once a stock market in milan which crashed, because they used round down on everything, instead of common "balanced" rounding rules
13:52<Simons_Mith>Can gamescripts change interest rates yet?
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>don't think so
13:52<nielsm>if you have inflation in costs and inflation in earnings pulse around an average at different rates maybe you'd get something slightly more interesting?
13:53<nielsm>(~~biorhythms~~)
13:53<@peter1138>Yeah, variable rates would be cool.
13:54<Simons_Mith>Yeah.
13:54<@peter1138>The only thing is that in the real world, the transport company decides how much to charge.
13:54<frosch123>LordAro: nielsm: when you add newgrf stuff, please document it: https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Main_Page
13:55<nielsm>did I ever manage to get a working login...
13:55<Simons_Mith>I think I'd also increase the granularity on the interest rates to 1/4%.
13:55<nielsm>not sure
13:55<@peter1138>Interest rates could probably be based on 100x values?
13:55<@peter1138>So 1 = 0.01
13:56<@peter1138>Pretty fine grained then, maybe too much.
13:56<nielsm>ppm
13:56<nielsm>or just promille
13:56<Simons_Mith>We use 1/4s nowadays, that probably fine enough
13:56<@peter1138>We do for bank interest rate, but if you wanted something based on stock markets...
13:57<Simons_Mith>I was thinking, start a game in the 1800s, interest rate 1-2%, inflation 1+1/4 to 2+1/4
13:57<Simons_Mith>Interest rates change only every few decades, maybe
13:57<Simons_Mith>Then things speed up a bit after 1950 say
13:57<Simons_Mith>and theres more and finer fluctuation
13:58<nielsm>I'd say fixed values throughout the game, but a GS API to control them
13:58*peter1138 recompiles and hopes the laptop doesn't turn off this time.
13:59<@peter1138>nielsm, agreed.
13:59<Simons_Mith>But can't you only have one Gamesctript? Shame if you want Villages is Villages and 'realistic' interest
13:59<@peter1138>Yeah, that's a slight bummer.
13:59<@peter1138>GS is the right way forward though.
14:00<Simons_Mith>Oh, that reminds me, on Gamescripts
14:00<Simons_Mith>You can only have one GS, because we assumme there's a risk they'll conflict
14:00<frosch123>Simons_Mith: when gs was designed, we expected people would start to combine multiple gs into one, like a "gs pack". but noone ever did that
14:01<Simons_Mith>What if you could suspend a GS and then turn another one on?
14:01<@peter1138>if it's possible to run multiple GS, maybe we should allow it, but let users pick up the pieces? :p
14:01<Simons_Mith>Say you run Villages is villages 11 months out of the year
14:02<Simons_Mith>in the 12th month you run the mission GS or something
14:02<@peter1138>Not really the point, you'd still have one GS fiddling with things the other GS doesn't know about.
14:02<@peter1138>It's not that they can't run concurrently.
14:02<Simons_Mith>Yeah, but if you have a GS that only fiddles with one tiny thing, then it can fiddle, then go back to sleep again
14:02<Gabda>Eddi|zuHause: tried chrono as well, although it is subjective, the creation of the "closest town map array" it took: 512x512 map (400 towns) 1.8 ms; 1024x1024 (800 towns) 8 ms; 1024x1024 (1600 towns) 17 ms.
14:03<@peter1138>You can do that with them running at the same time.
14:03<Simons_Mith>Not all GSs would conflict
14:03<@peter1138>AIs are capable of running 'concurrently'
14:03<@peter1138>Woo, it built this time :D
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>Gabda: that sounds fine, if it doesn't have to be fully recalculated during the game
14:03<nielsm>there's no way to know whether two GS would conflict, apart from some terrible kind of "capabilities declaration"
14:04<nielsm>and that would probably also cause false positives and false negatives
14:04<Gabda>it only have to be corrected when a new town is founded (but not recalculated)
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>Gabda: main problem is usually adding/removing towns, mostly in the scenario editor
14:04<Simons_Mith>Give AIs greater powers? that does blur the difference between an AI and a GS though
14:04<@peter1138>AIs are players, though.
14:04<Gabda>and I don't know if it is possible, but it have to recalculated if a city gets deleted
14:04<nielsm>an AI must not be able to do anything a human player can't
14:05<Gabda>so it is possible
14:05<Simons_Mith>Why not?
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>Gabda: but a voronoi partition can be done incremental, so adding/removing only affects a small area
14:05<Simons_Mith>Actually, humans can cheat, so AIs should be permitted to as well
14:05<@peter1138>They're AIs, they play a company.
14:05<@peter1138>If you want an "AI" that modified the game behaviour, then we have that, but we call them gamescripts.
14:06<Simons_Mith>But you can only have one Gamescript at a time
14:06<@peter1138>Yes.
14:06<@peter1138>It's better to allow multiple GS than to mess about allowing AI to do things players can't do.
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>Simons_Mith: you must modify the gamescripts into libraries to run multiple
14:06<nielsm>a gamescript controls the rules of the game, an AI plays by the rules set forth
14:06<@peter1138>Ultimately, allowing the AI to do these things will just end up with AIs conflicting as well.
14:07<Simons_Mith>We already have e.g. TownCars, a trees AI and so on,
14:07<Simons_Mith>There are a reasonable number of non-competing AIs with tighly-defined behvaours
14:07<@peter1138>Yeah but that's all stuff players CAN do.
14:07<Simons_Mith>And you have to manually cheat them cash so they can do their thing anyway
14:08<@peter1138>That makes it worse, not better.
14:08<Simons_Mith>I'm just want to automate the cheating part
14:08<@peter1138>I'd like to see a PR that allows multiple gamescripts.
14:08<@peter1138>(Not saying it'd be accepted)
14:09<@peter1138>But that's definitely preferable to mucking about with AIs.
14:09<Simons_Mith>OK, but let's pick Towncars as an example
14:09<nielsm>it plays by the rules of the game, it just doesn't play to win
14:10<Samu>PeterN commented 2 days ago
14:10<Samu>I think this is too big with too many changes. Should be split into separate PRs.
14:10<Samu>but then... andythenorth exists
14:10<Samu>:|
14:10<Simons_Mith>Why not: Turn cheat mode on for TownCars, than let TownCars give itselfs 10,000,000s?
14:11<Simons_Mith>This is kind of a halfway house between a GS and an AI
14:11<Simons_Mith>Not suitable for competitive AIs, but quite useful for e.g. Towncars, road builder AIs etc.
14:11<@peter1138>Why not improve GS, instead of adding bodges for AIs.
14:11<Simons_Mith>There's more AIs already written
14:12<andythenorth>co-operative multi-tasking GS :P
14:12<andythenorth>oof
14:12<@peter1138>Have a GS that dishes out money to a TownCars AI, for example...
14:12<andythenorth>did I miss a memo?
14:12<Gabda>Eddi|zuHause: deleting a town seems trickier. the info on closest town is important in the scenario editor as well?
14:12<@peter1138>andythenorth, just trying to work out a solution that isn't a bodge.
14:12<Simons_Mith>but you still need two GS script slots - one for the Sugar Daddy GS, one for whatever else.
14:13<@peter1138>Yes, so?
14:13<@peter1138>19:08 <@peter1138> I'd like to see a PR that allows multiple gamescripts.
14:13<andythenorth>GS is pretty crippled
14:13<andythenorth>due to only one
14:13<andythenorth>and more than one is crippled
14:13<andythenorth>due to you know
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>Gabda: a scenario is a savegame, so it should contain all the information
14:13<andythenorth>computing
14:13<andythenorth>scope
14:13<andythenorth>proper domain
14:13<andythenorth>etc
14:13<Samu>create GS's like they're libraries
14:14<@peter1138>andythenorth, you could've made a quick screenshot of the livery window changes while you were at it, eh?
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>Simons_Mith: really, just convert the GS into a library, then you can make a "Master" GS that calls both GS, and all the conflict resolution is in the hands of the programmer
14:15<@peter1138>andythenorth, instead of forcing me to download and compile it here, in gloomy Wiltshire...
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14:15<andythenorth>Wiltshire is lovely
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14:15<andythenorth>you want me to screenshot?
14:15<andythenorth>I'm only playing tanks
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>Simons_Mith: do not burden the user with figuring out whether two GS can be run combined
14:15<@peter1138>Ok, group-livery is not actually working properly at the moment. Damn it, wtf.
14:16<andythenorth>what broke?
14:16<Simons_Mith>Eddi: Currently that burden is avoided by not letting 'em do it at all.
14:16<nielsm>the solution is to make a GS library that knows how to recognize silly AIs and to give them free money, and then petition other GS authors to call that GS lib
14:17<@peter1138>Urgh, I hadn't fetched from my origin, so it grabbed an ancient version :/
14:17<nielsm>letting AIs cheat on their own volition is not acceptable and I will fight any PR that wants to allow that
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14:17<@peter1138>And wouldn't be allowed in multiplayer.
14:18<Simons_Mith>neilsm Quite a lot of people use AIs as helpers,
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14:18<nielsm>yes and so what?
14:18<Samu>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/6452 gonna try work on a better fix than just disabling the reset button
14:18<nielsm>changing the rules of the game is the domain of game scripts
14:18<Simons_Mith>Unfair and inappropriate to lump 'Helper' AIs with competing AIs.
14:19<Simons_Mith>They are a halfway house between a GS and an AI
14:19<@peter1138>I don't understand why it's better to add bodges for AIs instead of improving GSs.
14:19<nielsm>AI should not have been a scripting system running inside the game engine, but a separate network client that connects to a network server
14:19<nielsm>so they can do nothing but play by the rules of the game
14:19<@peter1138>nielsm :)
14:19<andythenorth>bot
14:20<@peter1138>Only issue with that is knowledge of game state.
14:20<andythenorth>well that's easy
14:20<andythenorth>just run them in an openttd client, but using a special scripting API
14:20<andythenorth>solved
14:20<@peter1138>andythenorth, you could run them in an already running openttd instance, maybe.
14:20<Simons_Mith>Twenty minutes' work, right?
14:20<andythenorth>that was my thinking peter1138
14:21<andythenorth>why do we need helper AIs?
14:21<andythenorth>peter1138: also snow on tracks and crap
14:21<andythenorth>unrelated idea
14:21<@peter1138>We've wasted longer than 20 minutes arguing against meddling with AI abilities.
14:21<andythenorth>snowploughs, dredgers, etc
14:21<@peter1138>Hidden railtypes?
14:21<andythenorth>'wear and tear' counter
14:21<@peter1138>Hmm, should I go get a cider?
14:21<andythenorth>probably
14:21<@peter1138>It's 750ml.
14:22<@peter1138>But it's from Aldi, so it's probably naff.
14:22<Simons_Mith>Cider doesn'ty go with popcorn
14:22<nielsm>Simons_Mith exlain why an AI assiting a player in some way should be allowed to do thing the player would not be able to (assuming the player is not touching ctrl-alt-c)
14:22<andythenorth>vehicles have a wear and tear factor, can be +ve or -ve
14:22<andythenorth>save it in the tile
14:22<@peter1138>I didn't bring any popcorn, though I almost did :/
14:22<andythenorth>use it for silly things
14:22*andythenorth very tanks
14:22<Simons_Mith>neilsm: because many people play OpenTTRD as a sandbox
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14:23<@peter1138>So now I'm recompiling with the current version of group-livery, to make a screenshot, cos andythenorth didn't ;(
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14:23<nielsm>those players can write their own gamescript then
14:23<@peter1138>Seriously we will not ever add features to allow the AI to cheat.
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>Simons_Mith: "sandbox" is easy: load a price newgrf and set all factors to 0
14:23<@peter1138>But GS improvements are welcome.
14:23<@peter1138>^
14:23<nielsm>if you're playing sandbox then use basecosts grf to set all costs to zero
14:24<Simons_Mith>How does cost=0 let you bulldoze an industry?
14:24<Simons_Mith>How does cost=0 let you make change over a large map?
14:24<@peter1138>Woah, where did bulldozing an industry come into it?
14:25<Simons_Mith>Kind of thing you might be doing in a sandbox game, and want an AI to help you with
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>Simons_Mith: there is no way, ever, that an AI will be allowed to destroy industries
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>Simons_Mith: if you want to do that, just press ctrl+alt+c
14:25<Samu>AIs can't really do everything humans do
14:26<Samu>they can't retrieve refitted capacity of engines
14:26<andythenorth>peter1138: it's a hard knock life, but you have Lidll cider, right?
14:26<andythenorth>and I did offer :P
14:26<@peter1138>andythenorth, please do it. This laptop is shit.
14:26<Samu>but they can if the vehicle actually exists (bought vehicle)
14:26<andythenorth>ok
14:26<@peter1138>And it's Aldi.
14:26<andythenorth>should I cook chicken
14:26<andythenorth>?
14:27<@peter1138>Unless you prefer it raw?
14:27<@peter1138>Samu, issue/PR? :p
14:27<andythenorth>oops I need a new game
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>can Aldi and Lidl even survive brexit?
14:27<andythenorth>my groups are called 'Red', 'Orange' etc
14:27<andythenorth>which is confusing
14:27<andythenorth>peter1138: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1217795#p1217795 :P
14:27<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, of course, we'll just have to pay more.
14:28<@peter1138>andythenorth, yeah... I need the livery window itself :p
14:28<andythenorth>I know, I just wanted to show off the rainbow
14:28<Samu>AIs can't plan in advance, and most of what AI's do is plan in advance
14:28<andythenorth>'skittles patch'
14:28<@peter1138>:D
14:28<andythenorth>'taste the rainbow'
14:28<@peter1138>Why can't AIs plan?
14:28<Samu>well they can, but not as well as humans
14:29<@peter1138>That's down to the ability of an AI writer to actually write an AI.
14:29<@peter1138>Of course, that's Hard problem, which is why we delegated it to user scripts :p
14:29<Samu>because they can't retrieve correct costs, correct cargo capacities,
14:29<@peter1138>Ok
14:29<@peter1138>I'm glad all these deficiencies are documented and reported.
14:29<Samu>i can't get the cost of an engine refited to xx cargo
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: but not paying more is the entire point of these things?
14:29<Samu>unless i buy the vehicle and refit it
14:30<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, no, the point is BREXIT MEANS BREXIT AND WE'RE LEAVING
14:30<@peter1138>Or something
14:30<Samu>but if i buy the vehicle, im no longer planning, im wasting money
14:30<@peter1138>I dunno.
14:30<@peter1138>SOVERIGNTY!
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>because of a <2% margin?
14:30<@peter1138>Samu, how does a player know how much it'll cost to refit without buying?
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>which is technically smaller than the measurement error?
14:31<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE
14:31<Samu>players know in advance
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>also, the referendum wasn't binding in the first place
14:31<@peter1138>MAJORITY SPOKE!
14:31<nielsm>show me where it's displayed
14:31<@peter1138>Samu, why? How do they know?
14:32<Simons_Mith>Yes, all 70% of 52%!
14:32<Samu>by memory
14:32<Samu>not really by the game telling it to you
14:32<nielsm>you mean to say an AI cannot remember things?
14:32<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, I'm obviously being sarcastic, I have no answer for you.
14:32<@peter1138>Pretty sure AIs can remember way more stuff than I can.
14:33<Simons_Mith>Some poor blighter has to code it though
14:33<nielsm>the AI would just have to check if it has seen the refit costs for a vehicle before, and work with that knowledge if it has it, and otherwise take a gamble
14:33<nielsm>(and learn)
14:33<@peter1138>Hmm, what to have for dinner.
14:33<@peter1138>I'm thinking fish & chips (oven cooked from the freezer, not a takeaway)
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>i have leftover bolognese
14:33<Samu>yes, but they have to buy the vehicle in the first place
14:33<Samu>humans don't have to
14:33<nielsm>yes humans do
14:33<@peter1138>Samu, what do humans do instead?
14:34<Simons_Mith>Teahing an AI o read the OTTD wiki would be a real challenge
14:34<@peter1138>Or do you mean we're able to remember it from a previous game?
14:34<@peter1138>(Cos I bloody well don't)
14:34<Samu>well humans know in advance that for example, an aircraft reffited to goods, will have 1/4 capacity
14:34<@peter1138>Samu, is that always the case?
14:34<@peter1138>If it is, then why can't an AI know that?
14:34<Samu>if an AI wanna get the reffited capacity of an aircraft to goods, it can't know in advance
14:35<Simons_Mith>If I was coding an AI, I think I'd buy-refit-sell and get the price that way
14:35<Samu>because of NewGRFs which could alter these per vehicle set
14:35<@peter1138>Damn it, I should've brought that popcorn.
14:35<Simons_Mith>If you sell a vehicle immediately you get pretty much full money back
14:36<@peter1138>Samu, but how would the player know that in advance then?
14:36<Samu>by having played in previous games, oh come on
14:36<Samu>you know what I mean
14:37<nielsm>the AI needs to be coded to take a gamble that it will get a useful result
14:37<@peter1138>What if they've never played that set before?
14:37<nielsm>and whether it's useful or not, keep whatever it learned in memory
14:37<@peter1138>What if they've not played it for a while and simply don't remember it all?
14:37<Simons_Mith>What if it's changed since last time?
14:37<Samu>:|
14:37<nielsm>let the AI access the readme.txt and parse it!
14:37<@peter1138>Samu, btw, I'm not saying the AI shouldn't be able to get these costs.
14:38<nielsm>oh wait, nobody ever puts useful info in readme.txt
14:38<@peter1138>nielsm, usually not :-)
14:38<Simons_Mith>TBH, if the AI could get all that stuff, I'd like to have an AI that extracted all the info and gave it to ME
14:38<@peter1138>Samu, but you know, maybe make some feature requests.
14:38<@peter1138>And yeah, if the AI can get the costs, then it'd be useful for players too.
14:39<nielsm>afaik newgrf can control the refit costs of a vehicle based on CB can't it? so they may vary from time to time
14:39<@peter1138>I'm not sure if it's possible due to how the callbacks work, mind you.
14:40<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7108: Feature: Group liveries, and livery window usability enhancements. https://git.io/fh6vZ
14:41<andythenorth>^^
14:41<andythenorth>profit
14:41<Samu>there is an AI library that "learns" engine capacity, refit costs of vehicles, but what it actually do is waste money... it needs money in advance to learn them
14:41<andythenorth>that livery icon...sucks :P
14:41<Samu>it's a meh... method imo
14:41<Samu>if money is of concern for planning, this is a bad solution
14:42<Borg>Samu: wait.. does GS doesnt have Test mode? with will return how much it spent?
14:42<nielsm>so write an AI that takes a gamble the first time it sees a potentially useful vehicle!!
14:43<nielsm>because that's sure what I do
14:43<andythenorth>AI json manifest
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14:43<Samu>yes, but that test mode for refit, for example, requires you to already have it bought
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>machine-readable AI-Wiki interface
14:44<Samu>and to learn the new capacity, you really have to pay the refit cost, if you sell it after, the refit cost will ... cost you
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>TODO: figure out how to add cloud and blockchain
14:45<Samu>not good for planning mode
14:45<Simons_Mith>If you buy and then sell straight back, you get pretty much a full refund, don't you?
14:45<nielsm>Samu: you're just completely ignoring what I'm suggesting aren't you?
14:45<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: data lake
14:45<Simons_Mith>What proportion of refits have non-zero cost>?
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>of course, wiki interface doesn't only mean reading, but also writing
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14:46<Samu>what am I ignoring, sorry must have missed it
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>Simons_Mith: i'd say most of them, unless the set was designed for autorefit
14:47<nielsm>Samu: you're ignoring my suggestion that an AI should buy a vehicle on the chance it is useful, and then make the best possible of it even if it's not the very best choice
14:47<nielsm>human players do that all the time
14:48<nielsm>not buying it to learn the refit costs but buying it to use it to actually run the route
14:48<nielsm>and learn the refit costs/etc along the way
14:48<nielsm>(the purpose of buying that model is not to learn about it but to use it)
14:48<Samu>hmm the usual problem is starting up, but I see what you mean
14:49<nielsm>"this looks good enough"
14:49<nielsm>"perfect" is the enemy of "good enough", or however you say
14:50<Samu>was trying to make the best out of a budget of £100k
14:50<Samu>loan
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14:53<Simons_Mith>Eh, time for fud I think. Before I go, neilsm: "<nielsm> letting AIs cheat on their own volition is not acceptable and I will fight any PR that wants to allow that"
14:53<Samu>it was when I discovered the refit issues. my ai at the moment is starting suboptimal with aircraft mail cargo
14:54<Simons_Mith>But presumably if there was a checkbox /controlled by the player/ that said, 'Permit this AI to use cheats'. that'.... merely ugly?
14:54<nielsm>no, write a gamescript for it
14:55<Simons_Mith>many gamescripts, then
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>i feel like we're going in circles.
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>and you're requesting things that are already possible, just not in the exact way you want it
14:56<nielsm>I don't think it would be a difficult change to let multiple GS be loaded at once (except perhaps contention for storybook and goals?)
14:58<Simons_Mith>I'm looking at writing this stuff myself, but thre's no point if it's too far at variance with the preferences of the key devs
14:58<Simons_Mith>You've been helpful in that repsect
14:59<Simons_Mith>GS extenstion is probably beyond my current skill tho
14:59<Simons_Mith>As is correct typing
14:59<nielsm>yes you're spelling my name wrong :(
14:59<Simons_Mith>[cold hands]
15:00<Simons_Mith>Sorry!
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>man, my sense of time is totally broken today
15:01<frosch123>nielsm: there are many things which are currently global, but would to be per-gs
15:01<frosch123>like cargo-monitors, storybook, goals, ...
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15:06<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #7110: Add: more options for translators https://git.io/fhKba
15:10<andythenorth>so is there a var for CC being used?
15:10*andythenorth looks
15:14<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 approved pull request #7110: Add: more options for translators https://git.io/fh6fS
15:15<nielsm>hmm this is annoying, the first time the music loop is called, the client settings config is not loaded so _settings_client.music.playing is false by default so music never starts on title screen
15:16<nielsm>is there a way to detect if config is actually fully loaded? >_>
15:16<andythenorth>hmm, no documented var for vehicle colour
15:17<andythenorth>80+ o_O
15:17<andythenorth>nope, no var
15:17<frosch123>nielsm: there is a bool parameter to LoadFromConfig
15:17<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #7110: Add: more options for translators https://git.io/fhKba
15:17<frosch123>andythenorth: var 43 iirc
15:17*andythenorth trying to make custom liveries, selected by the group livery
15:18<nielsm>frosch123 but that's not where I am, I'm inside MusicLoop()
15:18<andythenorth>oh yes var 43 :)
15:18<nielsm>between the calls to LoadFromConfig(true) and LoadFromConfig(false)
15:19<andythenorth>so maybe this is the way to do liveries :)
15:19<frosch123>nielsm: maybe _window_system_initialized ?
15:20<andythenorth>I can't find a single person who says more than 'no' to my ctrl-click counter idea :P
15:20<TrueBrain>hell no
15:20<TrueBrain>there you go
15:20<andythenorth>so choosing the livery can set the gearing on the train :D
15:20<andythenorth>makes sense, right?
15:20<andythenorth>red faster than blue
15:20<frosch123>andythenorth: try to find a solution that works for more people than just you
15:20<andythenorth>frosch123: I don't know any other people :P
15:21<andythenorth>I'm also all out of modifier keys :P
15:21<TrueBrain>if things are red, it just means they are moving away from you. Blue means they are approaching (most likely rapidly)
15:21<TrueBrain>not sure what you are on about :P
15:21<andythenorth>I just want to click on a train and have it cycle through sprite options :P
15:21<andythenorth>somehow
15:22<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #7109: [OSX] Use high-precision scrolling properties for 2D scrolling https://git.io/fh6JY
15:22<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7109: [OSX] Use high-precision scrolling properties for 2D scrolling https://git.io/fh6JO
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: there was once a question: "how fast do you need to go so a red traffic light appears green to you?"
15:24<TrueBrain>simple, never; as by the time you reach speeds that would cause that, you created tons of other problems that most likely would mean the end of life as we know it :P
15:24<andythenorth>hmm
15:24<andythenorth>so if modifier-click is not going to happen
15:24<andythenorth>how about a dropdown menu on every vehicle?
15:24<andythenorth>I'll mockup
15:25<TrueBrain>oh-oh
15:25<+glx>nielsm: you can make the loop wait for a signal maybe
15:28<andythenorth>here we go, let's do this https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9258/vehicle_options.png
15:29<andythenorth>dunno what's on the menu options
15:29<andythenorth>all the important things I guess
15:29<andythenorth>sprite, cb36 stuff etc
15:29<+glx>how long does it take for eints to detect an new english.txt ?
15:29<andythenorth>still needs some kind of counter byte so it knows what sprite to use :P
15:29<andythenorth>there are some user bits somewhere?
15:39<@peter1138>Well, that was silly. Turns out there was no fish after all.
15:40<+glx>only chips ?
15:40<andythenorth>oh dear
15:40*andythenorth found chicken nuggets
15:41<@peter1138>I went out and got some, heh.
15:41<@peter1138>There was some fishcakes but they're pretty horrible I find.
15:42<@peter1138>Thanks for the screenshots andythenorth.
15:43<@peter1138>And then RGB colours ;)
15:43<Pikka>mmm, fish
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15:44<andythenorth>pikka never sleeps
15:44<@peter1138>Oh well. At least we won't be bodging AIs tonight.
15:44<andythenorth>we can bodge this instead? o_O https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9258/vehicle_options.png
15:45<@peter1138>Oh gods...
15:45<@peter1138>So anyway, the chips in the freezer, a portion size is 125g. However they are chunky chips.
15:45<+glx>per vehicle livery ?
15:46<@peter1138>So I measured out a portion, and it was... about 3 chips.
15:46<@peter1138>So I said screw that and filled half the baking tray instead.
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15:46<Eddi|zuHause>these "portions" never seem to make sense
15:46<andythenorth>per vehicle arbitrary settings
15:46<@peter1138>This is not good for calorie control, I might as well have got takeaway.
15:46<andythenorth>add lettuce
15:47<andythenorth>very filling, not much calorie
15:47<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, they usually very small. As if intended to make everything look healthy.
15:47<Samu>peter1138 did you find your helicopter service fix?
15:47<@peter1138>Samu, no.
15:47<Samu>ok :| take a look at mine if you have time :o
15:47<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, like popcorn. Who buys a small bag of popcorn, and then divvies it out into 7 tiny portions?
15:47<andythenorth>I think those new dropdowns look very nice
15:47<andythenorth>they will enhance the depot view a lot
15:47<@peter1138>We'd need a lot of popcorn this evening.
15:48<andythenorth>I have two kinds
15:48<andythenorth>salted, salt + sugar
15:48<@peter1138>I have "gourmet". It has chocolate on it.
15:48<@peter1138>Also I have cider.
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know how it came to be, but "popcorn" usually means "sweet" over here
15:49<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, have you ever measured out a "portion" of breakfast cereal?
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: no
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: it's always been "make this bowl look somewhat full"
15:49<@peter1138>Unless it's puffed wheat, you end up with a thin layer of dust on the bottom of the bowl.
15:50<@peter1138>(Except Weetabix)
15:50<+glx>it's for 20cl of milk anyway
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>i've never cared for the "1 portion" thing on anything, ever...
15:50<@peter1138>But it's okay. These portions are all green in the RDA boxes!
15:50<Samu>meanwhile, I'm gonna "fix" this https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/6452
15:51<@peter1138>Hmm, NRT...
15:52<Samu>anchorable settings
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>weren't you busy with hiding railtypes?
15:54<@peter1138>Uhm, I was busy visiting the MIL in hospital.
15:54<@peter1138>And then trying to eat her food.
15:54<andythenorth>ketchip with rice?
15:54<@peter1138>No.
15:55*andythenorth tries it anyway
15:55<andythenorth>sweet and sour sauce is basically ketchup
15:55<@peter1138>But okay, that's probably easier than fiddling with NRT right now.
15:55<@peter1138>Just approve group-livery already ;)
15:55<@peter1138>Erm, I mean review it and check it's all good.
15:55<andythenorth>does eddi have approve rights?
15:56<@peter1138>I suspect you are too biased on this one.
15:56<andythenorth>I am not approving it :P
15:56<andythenorth>I have play-tested it, but I can't review
15:57<andythenorth>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7108
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>why would i have approve rights?
16:00<andythenorth>given that I do
16:00<andythenorth>why wouldn't you?
16:03<frosch123>glx: TrueBrain: looks like the eints-pull trigger is broken. or did we forgot to install it after gh move? the working copy is still on 19:45
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16:04<TrueBrain>frosch123: isnt it on a crontab?
16:04<TrueBrain>didnt we settle on: just update it once a day?
16:05<TrueBrain>ah, no, 15 * * * *
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>so once an hour?
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>but how would that result in 19:45?
16:06<TrueBrain>magic
16:06<TrueBrain>:P
16:06<TrueBrain>nah, it commits on 19:45
16:06<TrueBrain>so it does things with the git around that time too
16:06<frosch123>ok, so glx missed by 2 minutes :p
16:06<frosch123>let's see in 9
16:07<TrueBrain>'git log' confirms that hypothesis :)
16:07<TrueBrain>(a hook is currently not possible to make this instant, as there is no way to get from the outside to in that vm)
16:10<andythenorth>shall I make some more examples for group liveries? o_O
16:11<andythenorth>I should finish drawing this eh :P http://www.railpictures.net/photo/685318/
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16:20<frosch123>1 outdated, 6 missing, sounds right :)
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16:23<+glx>yup I can start to fix french
16:24<andythenorth>so eh, vehicle IDs aren't in short supply...how about some kind of vehicle subtype choice via the buy menu? o_O
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16:31<@peter1138>How about it, eh?
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16:32<@peter1138>I mean, I'd like to.
16:33<@peter1138>Let me work on hiding railtypes.
16:33<@peter1138>That's probably a bit more reasonably on this shitty laptop.
16:33*andythenorth tries to do a draw
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16:40<@peter1138>Alright, I think this patch is done.
16:40*peter1138 ponders finding an old i5 laptop.
16:40<@peter1138>Lenovo X230, i5, 16GB...
16:42<@peter1138>Oh, 8GB, 320GB HDD... £170, not too bad.
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16:47<andythenorth>peter1138: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9259/very-groupy.png
16:47<@peter1138>Hmm, probably ought to disallow building of hidden railtypes too.
16:48<andythenorth>dunno about how it all works
16:48<andythenorth>I just drew something
16:49<+glx>"sprites complete: Yup"
16:50<nielsm>peter1138: remember to watch out for display resolution/quality on laptops, I rather regret getting one with 1366x768 last time
16:50-!-Borg [~borg@87-99-43-52.internetia.net.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving]
16:50<andythenorth>ha ha project management stuff glx
16:50<nielsm>(otoh anything better would have been a massive increase in price)
16:50<@peter1138>Yeah, I miss my (even older) laptop's 1400x1050 display.
16:50<@peter1138>That's a P4...
16:52<nielsm>(also where are the laptop and desktop OLED computer displays, has it become physically impossible to manufacture OLED displays in sizes greater than 10 and smaller than 55 inches?)
16:52<@peter1138>Yeah, this X230 is that shitty 1366x768 :(
16:53<@peter1138>This one is 1440x900.
16:54<+glx>a little better
16:54<Eddi|zuHause><peter1138> Hmm, probably ought to disallow building of hidden railtypes too. <-- also hide them from the AI
16:55<nielsm>does hidden railtype imply it doesn't actually exist? or just that it isn't buildable as-is for some reason, but may appear for special reasons?
16:55<@peter1138>It's something to do with compatible/powered railtypes.
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>nielsm: mostly for providing hybrid vehicles
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>like combined electric and 3rd rail
16:56<@peter1138>Okay, maybe this is not quite so easy ;(
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>(although for those it might be useful to not hide it)
16:56<@peter1138>I'm not sure where it needs to be available and not.
16:56<@peter1138>andythenorth, nice work, is there a PR? ;)
16:57<andythenorth>nearly
16:57<@peter1138>Sprites Complete: Yup
16:59<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Tahvohck opened issue #7112: Commit fef8b83 broke GSTown.SetGrowthRate https://git.io/fh6LW
16:59<andythenorth>they don't all say 'yup' :(
16:59<andythenorth>mumble mumble
16:59<andythenorth>trucks that can go on mine roads
17:00<andythenorth>without needing a special combined roadtype in build menu
17:05<@peter1138>Heh, GetBestRailtype falls back to RAILTYPE_RAIL, even if it's not available ;(
17:06<@peter1138>Hmm, might as well finish off this cider.
17:20<Samu>i dont know how to iterate on visual studio
17:20<Samu>i know how in squirrel
17:20<+glx>iterate what ?
17:20<Samu>c++
17:20<+glx>ah you need an iterator and a for loop
17:21<Samu>erase(it) does the erase, but then the loop becomes broken
17:21<Samu>asserts
17:21<+glx>yes iterators don't like that
17:21<nielsm>removing items from a collection you're iterating is recipe for trouble
17:22<Samu>how would I erase the 'it', then
17:22<nielsm>depends on what you're doing
17:22<Samu>it's a list of settings
17:22<Samu>i wanna remove an item from the list
17:23<+glx>just one ?
17:23<nielsm>and how long the collection is and how much of it you expect to remove
17:23<Samu>no, not just one
17:23<Samu>could be multiple, or none, or 1
17:24<+glx>what's the container ?
17:24<nielsm>std::remove_if() in <algorithm> might be the choice to go for
17:25<nielsm>or well maybe not
17:25<+glx>need more info :)
17:26<Samu>yeah, i'm unfamiliar with that lingo :(
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17:27<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep opened pull request #7113: Codechange: Use track functions. https://git.io/fh6tP
17:28<LordAro>Samu: start by googling what look like keywords
17:28<LordAro>then read what comes up
17:29<LordAro>if we're lucky, you might learn something
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17:30<Samu>+ settings { size=1 } std::map<char const *,int,StringCompare,std::allocator<std::pair<char const * const,int> > >
17:30<Samu>not sure what I'm copying
17:31<Samu>it has size=1, if I wanna erase it, it becomes size=0, but the iterator is then broken :|
17:31<andythenorth>so this vehicle buy menu group
17:31<andythenorth>how does it work? :P
17:31<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #7112: Commit fef8b83 broke GSTown.SetGrowthRate https://git.io/fh6tQ
17:31<LordAro>Samu: don't blindly copy
17:31<LordAro>read
17:31<andythenorth>it's 100% independent vehicles, except for one prop creating a group on number or keyword?
17:32<LordAro>cppreference.com has search functionality
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: each NewGRF vehicle sets a property which should be the "Master" vehicle, and group them if more than one
17:32<andythenorth>yup
17:32<andythenorth>order control?
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: some magic default value meaning "no master"
17:32<andythenorth>group name?
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>no group name?
17:33<andythenorth>can't see why one is needed
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>just the master vehicle
17:33<andythenorth>prop for forcing simultaneous intro dates?
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>yes
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>independent from group
17:33<TrueBrain>yippie, logs on k8s are now also stored for a bit longer; so I can at least trace issues if they happen :)
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>so you can make wagons appear at the same time without grouping
17:33<TrueBrain>that was totally not simple in k8s world :(
17:34<TrueBrain>people suggest using an ELK .. which costs ~1GB of RAM
17:34<TrueBrain>we only have 4 ..
17:34<+glx>TrueBrain: but it's easier to ignore issues if there's no logs
17:34<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so date is unrelated?
17:34<TrueBrain>25% for logging sounds ....
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yes
17:34<andythenorth>force-date is a new prop, totally independent of groups
17:34<TrueBrain>glx: true .. but if there is a security incident, I would like to crawl logs :)
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: e.g. making new liveries available at other dates
17:34<+glx>pff sysadmins
17:34<andythenorth>order in group is determined by order in buy menu
17:34<TrueBrain>:D
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but hide prototype offer for grouped vehicles
17:35<andythenorth>my assumption is that groups contain highly similar vehicles
17:35<@peter1138>Ok but castello blue cheese.
17:35<andythenorth>but one *could* create a group like 'buses' or whatever :P
17:35<andythenorth>people create those weird separator newgrfs :P
17:36<@peter1138>They do, but we ignore them.
17:37<@peter1138>They're the sort of people who think that reimplementing TCP using UDP is a good idea.
17:38<Samu>https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/container/map/erase
17:38<Samu>I have no idea how to interpret what I'm reading
17:39<@peter1138>Which bit?
17:39<Samu>clear() is not the correct one
17:40<Samu>erase(it) would be correct, but can't use inside a for loop :|
17:40<nielsm>std::map::erase() returns a new iterator at the position you removed from
17:40<nielsm>since we're using C++11 now
17:41<nielsm>so maybe it=map.erase(it); it enough
17:41<@peter1138>Yeah, looks like you can do it = erase(it); but you probably need to make sure it is not incremented in the loop?
17:41<andythenorth>ok so that's buy menu groups all done then
17:41<andythenorth>use the yellow +/- things?
17:41<nielsm>yes there is even an example at the end of the page :)
17:41<@peter1138>Ah yes.
17:42<@peter1138>That does simplify things a lot, returning a new iterator.
17:43<andythenorth>buy menu groups for 2.0
17:43<@peter1138>Oh :(
17:43<@peter1138>I'm compiling, but I can't remember what.
17:44<@peter1138>Hmm, more cheese?
17:44<andythenorth>usually
17:44<@peter1138>Gotta say, blue cheese on a fairly sweet ryvita is not quite right :/
17:44<@peter1138>Maybe I should open the MIL's crackers.
17:45<Samu>Expression: cannot increment end map/set iterator
17:45<Samu>i fail at this
17:46<LordAro>Samu: we're not going to give you answers for every single compile error you get
17:46<LordAro>work it out yourself
17:46<Samu>ok
17:46<nielsm>it sounds like you should research how C++ has defined the concept of iterators
17:46<@peter1138>Think about what an end map/set itaerator is.
17:47<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN approved pull request #7113: Codechange: Use track functions. https://git.io/fh6qK
17:47<nielsm>and how you use them in general and in specific for the various standard containers
17:47<andythenorth>we need dedicated samu channel
17:48<Samu>gonna try mimic the example
17:49<Samu>ah, i think i see, it's the for line, doesn't have it++ there
17:49<Samu>it++ is in the else
17:50<@peter1138>I mentioned that exact thing, approximately 8 minutes ago.
17:50<LordAro>Samu: like i said, don't just (mis)copy, read it
17:50<LordAro>and try to understand what you're reading
17:51<+glx>for (init; test; next)
17:52<Samu>yep, it works now, thx all
17:52<@peter1138>Balls, out of cider :(
17:53<andythenorth>how do we have 2 pages of PRs open :(
17:53<LordAro>peter1138: i suggest whisky
17:53<LordAro>andythenorth: because you've been lazy!
17:53<@peter1138>Totally out of alcohol now.
17:53<+glx>but I guess your code was "if (need_remove) remove else it++" and that's clearly wrong
17:53<@peter1138>This was a bottle I brought with me, anything else in this house is... removed due to... reasons.
17:53<andythenorth>@calc 14/39
17:53<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 0.358974358974
17:54<andythenorth>more than 1/3 of OpenTTD contributions are from samu
17:54<+glx>usually you don't want to increment inside the loop, unless you exactly know what you do
17:54<+glx>especially with iterators
17:55<andythenorth>just increment past the close point
17:55<andythenorth>what could go wrong?
17:55<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN merged pull request #7113: Codechange: Use track functions. https://git.io/fh6tP
17:56<@peter1138>Well, you'd get an error saying something about "Expression: cannot increment end map/set iterator"...
17:57<andythenorth>I once employed someone who wrote a loop that needed to be closed with a break
17:58<+glx>we call it infinite loop
17:58<andythenorth>and did something like "if i == 100; break;"
17:58<andythenorth>that hung a server up nicely
17:58<+glx>oups
17:58<andythenorth>oops
17:58<andythenorth>not as fun as the day we learnt about locking sql tables for specific writes
17:59<andythenorth>to avoid concurrent access when you really don't want it
17:59<+glx>without unlocking after ?
17:59<andythenorth>like...giving away the one prize in a prize draw
17:59<andythenorth>instead of the 7 prizes
17:59<andythenorth>that you actually have to give away
17:59<andythenorth>if you don't lock
17:59<@peter1138>hehe
18:00<@peter1138>nielsm, is that enough screenshots in 7108 now? ;)
18:00*andythenorth wonders if PRs need stricter criteria
18:00<@peter1138>What do you mean?
18:01<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7108: Feature: Group liveries, and livery window usability enhancements. https://git.io/fh6m3
18:01<andythenorth>like a quota or something :P
18:01<andythenorth>proof that you can program
18:01<andythenorth>dunno
18:02<LordAro>PRs would still end up getting opened
18:02<LordAro>unless you're planning on blocking people, which seems ultimately pointless
18:02<andythenorth>the problem I have is that I closed some, which didn't have viability
18:02<andythenorth>and now they're just back, split up
18:02<andythenorth>so now we have more PRs, not fewer
18:03<andythenorth>and they're still going nowhere
18:03<andythenorth>oof, bedtime :)
18:03<LordAro>i don't think they're back as such
18:04<LordAro>just that the large one has been split up into multiple, as was asked
18:05<andythenorth>ok
18:06*andythenorth should test the mac thing
18:06<andythenorth>also bed
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18:06<supermop_Home_>buy menu groups?
18:11<@peter1138>Some feature that was pondered a few months ago, but has not seen any coding yet.
18:13<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep opened pull request #7114: NPF bails out when source tile is also a destination tile https://git.io/fh6mK
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18:30<Samu>success!
18:30<Samu>resets non locked settings now
18:31<Samu>instead of just plain out disabling the reset button
18:32<@peter1138>Well
18:34<nielsm>nice city https://0x0.st/sCDm.jpg
18:38<@peter1138>Why does my game run at 1.02x consistently?
18:39<Samu>hmm, i guess the reset button could be disabled if all settings are locked, what do you think?
18:39<@peter1138>I thought it was just an oddity because I was running in a Hyper-V VM and displaying via VNC.
18:39<@peter1138>But this laptop also runs at 1.02x
18:39<nielsm>the timing calculation is slightly broken in possibly every video driver
18:40<nielsm>the win32 one tends to run at 0.98x
18:40<@peter1138>I remember having a patch to use the std hrtimer.
18:40<nielsm>SDL one tends to run at 1.02x
18:40<nielsm>yes :)
18:40<Samu>I have a dilema: should reset button also reset invisible settings
18:40<@peter1138>Hmm, I wonder where that went.
18:40<Samu>what to do?
18:40<nielsm>or otherwise do something to make up the difference
18:40<@peter1138>I have a patch that should allow catch-up, but when it runs at 1.02x that doesn't achieve much.
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18:44<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #7090: Query box sets value to hidden parameters https://git.io/fh6YX
18:44<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #7091: Dropdown menu can set value to a parameter of a different AI https://git.io/fh6YM
18:45<+glx>yes same message but it's to double link :)
18:47<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nikolas updated pull request #7086: Change #6173: Update SDL driver to use SDL 2.0 https://git.io/fhamZ
18:47<Samu>what to expect from a button that says "Reset"
18:48<Samu>https://imgur.com/Uu785pj
18:48<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7092: Fix #7091: Close dropdown menu windows after rebuilding AI/GS settings https://git.io/fh6Yd
18:49<@peter1138>1.00x using the high resolution clock.
18:49<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7093: Fix #7090: Close Query String window after rebuilding AI/GS settings https://git.io/fh6YA
18:49<@peter1138>Well, 1.00x - 1.01x
18:49<nielsm>peter1138 that would be better yes :)
18:49<nielsm>and then using the same algo for timing on all platforms
18:50<nielsm>(maybe splitting it out to a class of its own)
18:50<+glx>fixing #7090 and #7091 will require a global look at AI windows like I did with https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7106
18:52<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nikolas commented on pull request #7086: Change #6173: Update SDL driver to use SDL 2.0 https://git.io/fh6Of
18:52<Samu>don't over-close it
18:52<@peter1138>Back to 1.02x when I use only milliseconds.
18:52<+glx>hey they are not closed Samu
18:52<@peter1138>I guess it needs sub-millisecond accuracy.
18:53<Samu>part of my ai gui rework was making it not close windows unless it's really necessary
18:53<+glx>but I think it will be better to fix all problems at the same time
18:54<Samu>it currently closes too much
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18:54<Samu>(it was also not closing in situations it would crash, of course)
18:54<+glx>well for now when I click on a different line, the settings are still showing the previous selected line
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18:56<nnyby>anyone who is looking for something to test, try out this branch and i'd love some feedback >_< https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7086
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18:56<+glx>most of the time if you change selected line you should close the windows, because there's no way to pass it the new data
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18:57<Samu>if the script is still the same, it's still gonna change the correct parameter
18:57<+glx>well there is a way but it's not done actually
18:57<Samu>in this situation, i wouldn't close
18:58<+glx>a possible option would be to pass the new slot in InvalidData
18:58<LordAro>many of the issues arise because the windows refer to a particular slot in the list, rather than an actual newgrf/script config
18:58<LordAro>that's how i was going to go about solving the ai textfile issue, anyway
18:59<+glx>yes but at least it's a number so it's possible to give it the new slot
18:59<LordAro>closing all textfile windows because a slot gets changed seems a bit.. nuclear
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19:00<+glx>yes this text windows uses a slot too so it's doable
19:00<+glx>for newgrf I needed a more aggressive way because it's using directly a grfconfig
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19:01<LordAro>so why was that breaking?
19:01*nielsm ponders how to structure music code that can select between multiple drivers depending on music format
19:01<nielsm>going to sleep on that
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19:01<nielsm>gn
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19:01<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep commented on pull request #7108: Feature: Group liveries, and livery window usability enhancements. https://git.io/fh6On
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19:10<@peter1138>Damn, I've got some coding to do :p
19:12<Samu>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pc2vjstnz
19:12<Samu>wondering if this do what I want it to do
19:13<Samu>not entirely sure I need the free it first
19:13<Samu>what does it do?
19:14<+glx>on removal the grfconfig is deleted
19:14<Samu>oops, it's not a bool
19:15<Samu>it's a byte?
19:22<+glx>hmm maybe instead of passing this->active_sel or this->avail_sel, I could pass their address, so if they change the window gets the new value too
19:23<+glx>but still require closing in some cases
19:28<Samu>you could check how i handled some of it on my overhaul topic
19:29<Samu>to get some ideas, I suppose
19:29<+glx>I'm talking about newgrf window
19:29<Samu>oh, I haven't touched it, sorry
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19:45<Samu>I'm a terrible bit-wise mathmathician
19:50<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7106: Fix #7089: close NewGRF textfile windows when their data are invalid https://git.io/fh631
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20:04<+glx>my idea should work, just changing 7 lines made the textwindow update the caption
20:04<+glx>of course it crashes when I click when I shouldn't :)
20:05<+glx>*where
20:13<Samu>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pwzj5uvjx
20:14<Samu>this shall do, for now, due to me being a noob in bit-wise operations
20:15<+glx>ah you mean boolean algebra
20:16<Samu>ya
20:16<Samu>and some flags bitmask stuff
20:17<Samu>developer settings are hidden from gui by default
20:17<Samu>the reset button shall not reset them
20:18<Samu>but if they're visible, then reset them, if they're not locked
20:18<Samu>slightly confusing explanation
20:20<+glx>I'd use 2 bools
20:20<+glx>editable and visible
20:21<+glx>editable is menu or ingame stuff
20:22<+glx>visible is dev or not a dev setting
20:22<+glx>gui_dev or not a dev setting
20:23<Samu>a dev setting is hidden on gui when ai dev tools is disabled
20:23<+glx>then you just need if (editable && !visible)
20:24<+glx>easier to follow
20:24<Samu>ok
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20:25<+glx>and that way the code explains by itself
20:31<Samu>if editable and not visible is slightly misleading
20:31<Samu>i only want to reset if they're editable and visible, not not visible
20:33<Samu>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p3c6qc5ys
20:34<Samu>looks better, but the visible part is quite ugly atm
20:37<+glx>make it visible = ai_dev_tool || not a dev setting
20:38<+glx>!(a && b) = !a || !b
20:39<+glx>so visible is true if the developper settings are not hidden, or if it's not a developper setting
20:40<+glx>and you want to remove the hidden settings I think
20:40<+glx>so editable && !visible
20:41<Samu>no no, it's hidden, I dont want to reset parameters that i dont see
20:44<+glx>ah right, your previous code wasn't clear enough ;)
20:45<Samu>bool visible = _settings_client.gui.ai_developer_tools || ((*config_item).flags & SCRIPTCONFIG_DEVELOPER) == 0;
20:45<+glx>so yes editable && visible
20:47<+glx>at the end of the function the list will contain only hidden settings
20:48<+glx>and the not editable settings
20:49<Samu>it's a list of settings that are not to be reset
20:49<+glx>but you are removing them from the setting list
20:50<+glx>this->settings will only contain the not to be modified settings
20:51<+glx>I guess the other will be readded with default values later
20:51<Samu>yes, exactly that the intention, some other function will use this list to know where not to touch
20:51<+glx>the function name is misleading then
20:55<Samu>not sure how would I name it
20:55<Samu>ResetEditableVisibleSettings
20:56<+glx>it's more a RemoveEditableSettings
20:57<+glx>hidden are not editable ;)
20:58<Samu>sec, let me find in the code the comment
20:59<Samu>for the editable part, it's this https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/script/script_config.hpp#L110
21:00<Samu>the list that is created by that, is the list I'm working on
21:01<Samu>hmm the hidden ones may pose a problem, indeed
21:02<Samu>how to solve :|
21:02<+glx>editable && visible takes care of that
21:02<Samu>if they are in this list, yes
21:03<Samu>if they're not... it means they're at their defaults already
21:03<Samu>no need to reset then
21:03<Samu>heh, lucky
21:03<+glx>they are editable but not visible so considered not editable
21:06<Samu>brb testing, to make sure
21:13<Samu>in main menu it's working correctly, now testing in-game
21:18<Samu>also working as I intended
21:18<Samu>one could argue about hidden parameters not being reset though
21:19<Samu>part of me says it's wrong to reset something that is not visible
21:19<Samu>my other part would like them to also be reseted without resorting to ai dev tools setting required
21:20<Samu>enabled
21:20<Samu>so hmm... what is the right thing to do?
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22:10<Samu>gonna PR
22:11<Samu>i named it ResetSettingsGUI
22:12<Samu>nam
22:14<Samu>RemoveEditableSettings hmm
22:16<Samu>ResetEditableAndVisibleSettings
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22:16<Samu>ResetSettingsGUI
22:16<Samu>I click the reset button and this function is called
22:18<Samu>not sure about the 'free((*it).first);' code
22:18<Samu>will leave it in
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22:33<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #7115: Fix #6452: Reset only editable and visible settings from GUI https://git.io/fh6nJ
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23:05<Samu>ah snap, a small problem, will get it fixed asap
23:12<Samu>it's not a small problem, it's quite big, damn it :|
23:12<Samu>PR'ed too quickly
23:14<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick closed pull request #7115: Fix #6452: Reset only editable and visible settings from GUI https://git.io/fh6nJ
23:14<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #7115: Fix #6452: Reset only editable and visible settings from GUI https://git.io/fh6nV
23:14<Samu>off to bed
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---Logclosed Sun Jan 27 00:00:38 2019