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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-02-17

---Logopened Sun Feb 17 00:00:07 2019
00:51<@peter1138>snail_UES_, not drawbar power. OpenTTD already does the calculation for power varying by speed.
00:51<snail_UES_>peter1138: so ideally what should I provide? continuous power?
00:57<@peter1138>Well. I dunno :)
01:09<snail_UES_>anyway… looks like (boiler pressure * grate area) and superheating surface give me an R-squared of >90% on about 50 observations I collected
01:10<snail_UES_>so I’m going to estimate power using those things :)
01:12<@peter1138>Estimate and tweak is probably bset.
01:36<Eddi|zuHause>for steam engines i used a calculation i found in some old forum post by MB
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02:24<@peter1138>When you realise you can rewrite bits to be more efficient...
02:25<@peter1138>First calculate the station catchment tiles.
02:25<@peter1138>Then Find industries and check if they are in the catchment.
02:26<@peter1138>Calculate station catchment tiles, and during this if you see an industry tile, you already know it's within the catchment. no need to loop all over again.
02:26<andythenorth>happy days
02:27<@peter1138>Sounds like micro-optimization, I suppose.
02:27<@peter1138>Should end up making the code clearer, I hope.
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02:36<andythenorth>I need a better idea for port-type industries
02:36<andythenorth>train stations are hard for them
02:37<andythenorth>I need to add another 8-tile station to that port, for dropoff
02:38<andythenorth>nowhere to put it, unless I bulldoze sea :P
02:44<@peter1138>Remind me, what is a port-type industry?
02:45<@peter1138>Isn't a port basically ... station infrastructure, not an industry?
02:45<@peter1138>It has storage, I suppose.
02:46<andythenorth>it's just a kind of port
02:46<andythenorth>the main thing is that it builds on the coast
02:46<andythenorth>with water round 3 sides, approximately
02:46<andythenorth>so it's limited for stations
02:46<@peter1138>You've missed my point :)
02:47<andythenorth>stations that accept / produce cargo? o_O
02:47<@peter1138>Why though?
02:48<@peter1138>Why does a port accept/produce cargo? Is it a manufacturing plant?
02:48<@peter1138>I suppose you could say fish->food or something.
02:48<andythenorth>well there is fish -> food
02:48<andythenorth>but mostly they're just a gameplay short cut
02:49<andythenorth>some cargos need a source or destination that's totally at odds with RL
02:49<@peter1138>Can you have an industry that accepts and produces the same stuff?
02:50<andythenorth>probably works technically yes
02:50<andythenorth>cargo prod cb can definitely do that
02:50<@peter1138>And then use it as a "hub", between different companies.
02:50<@peter1138>one company feeds it materials from the sea
02:50<@peter1138>another transports that inland...
02:51<andythenorth>inter-company transfers
02:51<@peter1138>Effectively the industry is just storage.
02:51<andythenorth>warehousing :P
02:51<@peter1138>Except with ratings
02:52<andythenorth>can nerf ratings
02:52<andythenorth>in newgrf
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03:46<@peter1138>Hmm, now I see I possibly do too much :/
03:46<@peter1138>I think, bike time.
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03:49<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7235: New non-rectangular sparse station catchment area
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03:54<Gabda>wow, there are draft PRs now
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04:38<Gabda>peter1138: finding stations (or other objects) around tiles might be possible within O(log(#stations)) with a k-d tree structure
04:39<Gabda>the main problem I found with these k-d trees that they are hard to balance, and might be easier to rebuild on station add/remove
04:41<Gabda>I checked the white paper Idpl linked to my PR, and this was a data structure that might match the needs in the game
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05:05<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] M3Henry updated pull request #7165: [core] Implement SmallVector using std::vector
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06:07<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep commented on pull request #7238: Codechange: Remove assert when trying to intersect two tile areas and…
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06:16<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep commented on pull request #7220: Change: Increase maximum number of orders from 64000 to ~16.7m.
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07:53<Smokebuddie>Good afternoon everybody
07:54<Smokebuddie>I have a issue. When i set up a server, nobody finds my game?
07:54<Smokebuddie>i set the portforwarding correct
07:54<Smokebuddie>and its advertised
07:55<nielsm>what's your ip address?
07:55<Smokebuddie>ipv4 yes?
07:56<pnda>@Smokebuddie, my port forwarding is this: TCP/UDP on port 3979-3980/3979-3980
07:56<Smokebuddie>3978 & 3979 it says on the site
07:56<pnda>3979 and 3980 works for me
07:57<Smokebuddie>gone try that setting on my router just a sec
07:57<nielsm>yep, I can't connect
07:57<nielsm>you've definitely made a mistake in your port forwarding
07:58<pnda>Or maybe you've set the Protocoll wrong, I remember there being options for HTTP etc.
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07:59<Smokebuddie>This is an example of port forwarding; in this case, UDP and TCP connections to port 3979 will need to be forwarded.
07:59<Smokebuddie>this is from the OpenTTD wiki
07:59<Smokebuddie>Make sure you've instructed the router to send the game data to the correct computer. If you want your server to be visible on the public server list (recommended), you will also need to forward UDP connections to port 3978.
07:59<Smokebuddie>this too
07:59<Smokebuddie>so i set my router
08:00<Smokebuddie>3979 TCP&UDP 3978 UDP
08:00<pnda>my UDP is 3979 aswell, not 3978
08:02<Smokebuddie>i used to be able to host but its just the last few weeks i can only join my friends. not the other way arround
08:02<Smokebuddie>i've tried allot
08:03<Smokebuddie>that's how i now end up here. in hope someone maybe knows what is blocking it
08:04<Smokebuddie>@nielsm did you try to join?
08:04<Smokebuddie>game name is Smokey
08:05<nielsm>is what I get when I try to add the server
08:05<nielsm>it can't reach on UDP port 3979 so it can't get game information
08:05<nielsm>so it won't join
08:05<Smokebuddie>its like i'm not sending any signal
08:06<pnda>@Smokebuddie, try switching the UDP Port to 3979-3980
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>what's your PC's internal ip? and have you set that in the router for port forwarding?
08:06<Smokebuddie>@pnda i did it when you spoke of it
08:07<Smokebuddie>so now i have 3979/3979 TCP&UDP, 3978/3978 UDP , 3979/3980 TCP&UDP
08:08<@planetmaker>you can check connections easily. If everything is setup correctly, it will show up in short time (1 minute or so) in
08:08<Smokebuddie>@Eddi yes
08:08<@planetmaker>Under windows its own firewall is often the culprit after you setup the port forwarding correctly on your router
08:10<@planetmaker>openttd will tell in console that it fails to advertize, if you start it from console and start an MP session
08:11<Smokebuddie>i tried removing OpenTTD from the firewall then set the ports , start the game, start a server, accepted the firewall message to give permission. still offline to my friend....
08:11<Smokebuddie>how do i start it from console?
08:11<@planetmaker>not a good advice... yet often when I have firewall issues with windows, I completely switch it off to see whether it is the issue
08:12<Smokebuddie>ah ok
08:13<@planetmaker>(and often the programme then works... which then ends up with hours of swearing and weeding through MS firewall stuff)
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08:22<@peter1138>I! Am! Back!
08:25<Eddi|zuHause>do you also speak with a weird austrian accent?
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08:37<@peter1138>I could try.
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09:01<nielsm>okay I managed to get a network game to show up on the server list, finally
09:03<nielsm>had to do three things: set up port fwd in my main router (the one I like to use), set up windows firewall, and set up port fwd in my ISP-supplied router (the one I only use because it also serves as cable modem and am therefore forced to have on)
09:04<@planetmaker>right... there can be a 3rd one, if you have two in your home chained.
09:04<nielsm>"normal" users shouldn't have that
09:04<nielsm>double NAT is hell
09:07<@peter1138>Hmm, I wonder when the performance difference between std::set and std::unordered_set becomes noticable.
09:08<nielsm>I'd expect unordered_set to be faster in almost all cases on modern hardware
09:08<nielsm>(also the master server should be updated to handle the longer revision strings)
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09:10<@peter1138>Hmm, I wonder...
09:11<@peter1138>unordered_set may not iterate in the same order depending on compiler/machine, right?
09:11<@peter1138>So I proably ought to use a set when iterating otherwise... desync.
09:11<nielsm>I don't think the exact hash algorithm is defined
09:11<nielsm>if the iteration order matters, then yes
09:12<nielsm>question is if a straight vector isn't better regardless
09:14<nielsm>a std::set is a tree structure of multiple small objects, it has pretty bad memory locality properties and can easily murder cpu caches, the constant factor losses in this empirically overcome all the asymptotic runtime advantages even at very large data sizes
09:15<@peter1138>Mostly the sets have very few items.
09:15<nielsm>even more reason to use a vector :)
09:16<@peter1138>I guess I was using it to be lazy with checking if an item is alreay in it.
09:17<@peter1138>Yeah, with vector I have to manually test every time.
09:17<nielsm>I want std::stupid_set that is just a vector of items in insertion order, membership is checked by linear search, removing items from the middle moves all following items down
09:19<@peter1138>^ that top answer using <algorithm> is a bit long-winded.
09:20<nielsm>yeah that's the thing, "contains" is an annoying operation to express in stl on std::vector
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09:33*planetmaker senses small_vector's optimizations coming back
09:41<@peter1138>Hmm, actually if I'm iterating an unordered_set, and then inserting into a set, the order will be correct anyway.
09:49<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN approved pull request #7241: Fix 1585eb1a3: wrong default selection for goals and story book
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>remember yesterday when i had trouble getting out of a cave?
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>today i have trouble getting back in
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10:01<Wolf01>Eddi|zuHause: take a tractor, put a drill on the front, go get that astronium in the planet core
10:02<+glx>I should merge an approved PR, but I'm scared
10:02<Wolf01>I have troubles finding wolframite... I'm in Desolo and I only found a piece in a wreck
10:02<@peter1138>I think 7241 is pretty safe ;)
10:03<+glx>I know but we always get bug reports once merged
10:04<@peter1138>We need more regression tests ;)
10:04<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #7241: Fix 1585eb1a3: wrong default selection for goals and story book
10:05<+glx>yeah a game script testing the GUI is probably possible
10:06<@peter1138>I'm not sure it would cover this one, though.
10:06<+glx>indeed this one needs a spectator
10:06<+glx>and GS is deity
10:06<@peter1138>When you refactor stuff and end up with a function that simply calls another function, but it's called from tons of places.
10:07<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: not quite there yet :p
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>but this arid planet is extremely annoying.. every 3 step there's a hole in the ground
10:11<Samu>my ai is failing
10:11<Samu>groups are messed up yet
10:13<Eddi|zuHause>and this aluminium deposit was a total troll, not even a single complete unit
10:14<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: i just had an ammonium deposit like that, i just kept digging until i found something
10:14<Gabda>Wolf, Eddi: what is this game you are talking about?
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: just use the soil refinery
10:15<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: i've not gotten that far yet :p
10:16<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: what you need ammoinum for then?
10:16<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: you can get everything for the soil refinery on the starting planet
10:16<Gabda>are you playing it solo, or multi coop?
10:17<Wolf01>I'm forced to play solo until they activate my new internet line, but I hope to play some coop
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>i play solo, so far
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>not sure i would be any use in coop with the nonexistent performance :p
10:18<Samu>when I clone a vehicle, do I also clone its group?
10:18<Wolf01>Usually yes
10:19<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: because i'm still in the "pick up everything i see" stage
10:19<Eddi|zuHause>i'd like a digging tool mod that increases the distance where it detects deposits underground
10:20<Wolf01>I'd like to be able to deactivate mods without moving them on the backpack :|
10:21<Wolf01>Like you do with the working light or the generator if placed on the shoulder attachments
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>i don't really use generator
10:26<Samu>damn it, why are groups failing, why do I always fail
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>in general, i kinda hate single-use items (energy cells, oxygen filters, organic fuel)
10:26<Wolf01>I do only in the early game, as soon as I explore I find solar panels or wind turbines everywhere
10:27<Wolf01>I use energy cells on the buggy, one grants you like 40 minutes of power
10:27<Wolf01>And you can find them almost everywhere
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>i've not run out of power with a wind turbine
10:28<Samu>openttd group sorter is really weird
10:28<Samu>groups numbered over 1,000 come first than a group numbered 1
10:29<@peter1138>It needs to maintain heirarchy.
10:29<@peter1138>Do we ever sort numerically rather than alphabetically?
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10:30<nielsm> well, first steps... now to make it actually resize and scroll
10:30<Wolf01>I would like to reach Vesania to find some lithium, so I can start to flood the base with batteries... until I'll be able to craft some RTG
10:30<Wolf01>But that's late game
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10:32<Samu>I dont understand why i still have empty groups
10:32<pnda>When I see "Graphics frame rate". Will there ever be a more optimized performance ingame? I mean, you don't need more than 60fps in a game like this, but if games would be more stable and load faster, when there are a lot of trains etc. running, that would be great, and would fit into that window aswell.
10:32<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] GabdaZM opened pull request #7242: Codechange: Improve performance of town name refresh on viewports
10:32<Samu>i thought I would delete them all
10:34<pnda>Also, is that Frame rate window included in the 1.9.0-beta2 you can download of the site?
10:35<Gabda>did any of you find that scrolling if lagging on really large maps with lots of towns, or is it just me, because I use extreme number of towns (30k)?
10:36<Gabda>(I only use that map for testing, not playing)
10:37<Gabda>pnda: I am working on small performance upgrades :)
10:38<pnda>I hope so. I think it would really benefit servers, and slower systems would maybe be able to play on larger maps
10:39<pnda>I feel like OpenTTD should get Multi Threaded Support, for those with really fast PCs (like me)
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>pnda: the game itself runs at 30fps, but people have been requesting things like UI to use higher frame rate
10:39<Gabda>well, performance upgrades usually goes with increased memory usage, so old systems might have problem with that as well
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>or 33fps
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>i never remember
10:40<pnda>I mean, you really don't need more than 60fps in this type of game.
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>pnda: the people using 144fps monitors seem to disagree
10:41<pnda>I have a 144Hz monitor myself
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10:44<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7178: Add AI and GS to framerate window
10:47<pnda>Small request: When loading a game/creating a map/saving a game, could it be changed so that OpenTTD uses all available std::threads? (I have not much clue of C++)
10:48<nielsm>not possible
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>great. and now i glitched through the terrain into a totally different cave
10:50<pnda>nielsm: It seems possible to me:
10:51<nielsm>pnda yes multithreading is possible "in general", but the specific structure of the save/load code in OTTD makes it unlikely to be threadable without a gigantic project
10:53<nielsm>actually what do you even mean by multithreading it? run it in the background while you keep playing the game?
10:53<nielsm>or split the job up so multiple parts of the loading or saving are handled simultaneously?
10:54<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] GabdaZM commented on pull request #7120: Codechange: Improve performance of closest town lookups with cache
10:56<Samu>i'm getting helicopters in a group that was supposedly for send to depot only
10:56<pnda>Well, with the 1.9.0-beta2 it seems that it does use all of my 6 Cores, though it only uses them ~40% (max 50%), which I think is kinda strange.
10:56<Samu>also have planes
10:56<Samu>something not working, I'm sad
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>that's not really relevant
10:57<nielsm>OTTD is single-threaded by design, the single-threaded-ness is pervasive through the entire game, you wouldn't be able to make the simulation itself multithreaded in a reasonable manner
10:58<nielsm>the reason is that the simulation needs to be predictable, and splitting it up across threads makes it unpredictable
10:58<Eddi|zuHause>that just means it's shuffling around the maxed out thread between different CPUs, which is actually a terrible idea
10:58<LordAro>(this is quite common amongst a lot of games - not everything is parallelisable)
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>because that inhibits processor features like overclocking a single core while the others are idle
10:59<Samu>i wanted AIs to multithread
10:59<nielsm>there are some parts of OTTD that run on separate threads, for example graphics output may be separate depending on driver, music and sound may run in a thread, and the link graph updates (relates to cargodist) runs on a separate thread
11:00<pnda>You can overclock a single processor core like you want, that's not dependant on how a program is programmed to work
11:00<Samu>1 thread per AI
11:00<Samu>use the queue command
11:00<pnda>uhhh...My CPU only has 6 Threads, and the average CPU has 4 Threads...Over what does the game support, 16 AIs?
11:01<nielsm>the cargodist link graph update is the only part of game logic that runs in a thread, and that's only possible by letting it have a deadline measured in simulated game ticks, and only integrating the thread result in game logic after the deadline has passed regardless of whether the thread finished sooner
11:01<Samu>whichever AI completes the job first, gets in the queue first
11:01<dwfreed>pnda: CPUs are capable of running more than 1 thread at a time
11:01<dwfreed>(not really at a time, but that's what task switching takes care of)
11:01<pnda>dwfreed you mean SMT/HT?
11:01<LordAro>pnda: careful, you're at risk of revealing a lack of knowledge about multithreading :)
11:02<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] GabdaZM commented on pull request #7120: Codechange: Improve performance of closest town lookups with cache
11:02<dwfreed>I mean the fact that CPUs aren't limited to running 1 process forever
11:02<pnda>what do you mean by that
11:02<milek7>for saving, maybe it is possible to fork() and finish saving in second process
11:02<dwfreed>otherwise single-core single-thread processors would never have done much of anything useful
11:02<Eddi|zuHause><pnda> uhhh...My CPU only has 6 Threads, and the average CPU has 4 Threads...Over what does the game support, 16 AIs? <-- the AI threads are only threads to have local data access, they can't actually run in parallel
11:03<LordAro>pnda: worrying about having more threads than CPUs is very close to nonsense
11:03<nielsm>uh can anyone help me with some window system stuff? the "fill" parameter in UpdateWidgetSize, what does that mean, "fill step of the widget" means nothing to me
11:03<+glx>saving is already threaded
11:03<pnda>LordAro: "having more threads than CPUs", what?
11:04<+glx>well the writing to disk part is threaded
11:04<Eddi|zuHause><milek7> for saving, maybe it is possible to fork() and finish saving in second process <-- it already does that for compressing/writing to disk
11:05<Samu>there can be 15 AIs
11:05<+glx>pnda: one CPU can have run many threads, it's called multitasking
11:06<Eddi|zuHause> <pnda> uhhh...My CPU only has 6 Threads, and the average CPU has 4 Threads...Over what does the game support, 16 AIs? <-- this is total nonsense, your CPU already runs hundreds of threads before you even get to starting the game
11:06<pnda>glx: They get switched arround constantly, they aren't actually running at the same time exactly.
11:06<+glx>of course
11:06<dwfreed>no shit
11:06<dwfreed>that's what we've been saying :P
11:06<pnda>No really.
11:07<Samu>my idea was... make all AIs execute their code simultaneously, on different threads and once they need to queue commands, whichever comes first, gets it queued first
11:07<Samu>then openttd runs the queue
11:07<pnda>I never doubted that CPUs can just do whatever they want, and do thousands of stuff at exactly the same time.
11:07<+glx>I think on windows there is at almost 10 threads for openttd only
11:08<dwfreed>I have threading enabled in nginx on this system; 1 master process, 2 worker process, each worker process has another 32 threads for i/o work
11:09<dwfreed>s/process, e/processes, e/
11:11<Samu>i just wonder if it's doable
11:11<pnda>I think we were talking about different threads. But I am completely confused just now
11:11<Samu>i mean, commands are already sent to a queue
11:11<nielsm>pnda everyone is talking about OS threads
11:11<nielsm>not (virtual or real) cpu cores
11:11<pnda>yeah, I meant real cores
11:12<Samu>this game is real time, so it needs to be sync'ed
11:12<Samu>that's usually the task of 1 thread
11:12<nielsm>Samu that's the wrong explanation
11:12<Samu>ok i failagain
11:14<nielsm>the simulation logic is single-threaded because it needs to reproduce exact results when a tick is simulated from the same starting point, that's the basis for multiplayer working at all
11:14<+glx>that's also why we don't use floats
11:14<+glx>because roundings can differ depending on the used CPU
11:14<dwfreed>yay float bugs
11:15<Eddi|zuHause>it's not bugs...
11:15<nielsm>multithreading would either mean unpredictable results, or that everything needs to synchronize all the time losing any benefit made from parallelism
11:15<Eddi|zuHause>it's undefined behaviour
11:15<dwfreed>nielsm: there's still a benefit to parallelism if you have multiple simulations that need to be made every tick (eg multiple AIs)
11:15<pnda>So why did my installation of OpenTTD use all 6 physical cores of mine while loading, and not just one?
11:16<dwfreed>time(A) + time(B) becomes max(time(A), time(B)), where time(X) is the time it takes for X simulation to run
11:16<pnda>Probably AIs could really benefit of multiple simultaneous processes
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11:16<nielsm>for example x87 floating point registers are 80 bit extended precision, floating point code compiled for that can have more internal precision causing it to produce different results to the same code compiled for an ARM architecture which works with 64 bit double precision all the way
11:17<pnda>You lost me there
11:17<+glx>because openttd uses many threads, even if the game core is single threaded
11:18<Samu>pentium bug
11:18<pnda>And why does, even when creating a new 4kx4k map, my CPU not go over 35% usage?
11:18<+glx>when pausing during the starting newgrf scan I have 12 threads
11:19<nielsm>uint fill_y; ///< Vertical fill stepsize (from initial size, \c 0 means not resizable).
11:19<nielsm>what is fill?
11:19<dwfreed>pnda: 35% out of 100% or 35% out of (numThreads * 100)% ?
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11:19<pnda>numThreads, OS threads or the real threads of my CPU?
11:20<dwfreed>threads of the CPU, including SMT threads if available
11:20<+glx>nielsm: empty widget space I think
11:20<pnda>Uhh, that would be 210 then
11:20<dwfreed>I'm asking what the scale of the 35% is
11:20<milek7>about floats, ieee754 is well-defined, right? and intermediate precision could be set with compiler flags
11:21<dwfreed>milek7: CPU bugs, see Samu's mention of the Pentium bug
11:21<nielsm>glx, any suggestion to a file I could read to help understanding the resizing logic?
11:21<pnda>Uhh... It's 35% over all cores, idk what you mean
11:22<milek7>i hope nobody uses old pentium now ;p
11:22<dwfreed>pnda: so 35% out of a possible 600%, not 35% out of a possible 100%
11:22<pnda>Uhm, I guess
11:23<dwfreed>because that is an important distinction
11:23<dwfreed>milek7: the point is that that bug is still a possibility today
11:23<LordAro>with 6 cores, 35% of 600% is an issue, 35% of 100% is not
11:24<milek7>seems complicated
11:24<LordAro>milek7: also, integer maths is generally much faster and easier to reason abouty
11:25<LordAro>(35% (of 100%) is approximately 1/3, so 2 cores at 100%)
11:26<pnda>So why is that bad, 35% out of 600%
11:27<dwfreed>because there shouldn't be any reason it's not at at least 100% out of 600%, especially if it is a long running process
11:27<pnda>And over Task Manager, it looked like none of the cores itself were over 40%
11:28<LordAro>task manager isn't that great of a measuring tool
11:28<pnda>It's good enough
11:28<dwfreed>yeah, I wish the graph per thread on task manager was vertically arranged, not horizontally
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11:29<dwfreed>also, in the process list on Windows 7 Task Manager, percentages are out of 100%; no idea if that holds for newer Windows versions
11:29<+glx>nielsm: the comment may be wrong if compared to NWidgetResizeBase::SetFill() widget.cpp:839
11:29<pnda>Yeah, that seems to still be the case
11:30<dwfreed>so your 35% is actually 210% then :P
11:30<pnda>*This is probably irrelevant, but my GPU doesn't even hit 30%*
11:30<dwfreed>which is probably fine, depending on how many threads are running map generation
11:31<pnda>Here you can see it visualized, each window is one core:
11:31<dwfreed>pnda: not surprising, openttd is not exactly the definition of a graphically intensive game
11:31<Samu>my cpu is running 1617 threads atm
11:32<@planetmaker>indeed. cpu... is hardly used by OpenTTD.
11:33<LordAro>planetmaker: you meant gpu, right?
11:33<pnda>And a 8150 can do 3.6 million threads per second
11:34<+glx>operations, no threads
11:34<pnda>Wwait I just lost it
11:34<@planetmaker>ops != threads
11:35<pnda>yeah just noticed myself
11:35<pnda>I should sleep more....
11:35<Samu>back to where I was... my AI is bugged
11:35<Samu>i fail at groups,yada yada
11:35<Samu>not uploading v8 yet
11:36<+glx>using master (ie 1.9) api or compat one ?
11:36<Samu>still running 1.4
11:40<+glx>just checked the code, cloned vehicles go in the same group
11:42<Samu>my road vehicles groups look fine
11:42<Samu>but let me recheck, wanna make sure
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11:42<+glx>be sure to put a vehicle in a group before starting to clone it
11:43<Samu>i have emtpy groups
11:43<Samu>it's not fine either
11:43<+glx>do you ever put vehicles in these groups after you created them ?
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11:45<Samu>yes, i believe so
11:45<+glx>new (non cloned) vehicles don't go in groups when built, you have to move them
11:46<Samu>let me upload my stuff for u to see
11:46<Eddi|zuHause><pnda> And over Task Manager, it looked like none of the cores itself were over 40% <-- because windows is stupid and goes "oh look, CPU 1 is at 100% while the other does nothing, let's move this big thread to CPU 2", and a fraction of a second later goes "oh look, CPU 2 is at 100% while the other does nothing, let's move this big thread to CPU 3"
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>and so on
11:47<Eddi|zuHause>so if you average that out over a second or so, each CPU is at 25% (in case of 4 CPUs and one big thread running at 100% of one CPU)
11:48<@planetmaker>such behaviour sounds like a good plan for cpu energy management ;)
11:48<Samu> wait this is v7
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>if by "good" you mean "ruining" :p
11:49<Samu>ok, uploaded v8
11:49<@planetmaker>"good" :)
11:50<Samu>weird spacing
11:50<Samu> this is where I deal with road vehicles
11:50<Samu>I don't understand that spacing
11:51<Samu>i see it fine on notepad++
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>it means you're constantly switching power states of each CPU, instead of being able to use the boost features of a single cpu
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>and you're having context switches and cache losses all over the place
11:51<dwfreed>Samu: spaces vs tabs
11:51<dwfreed>Samu: line 12 is 4 spaces, line 13 is 1 tab
11:51<+glx>notepad++ has a nice feature for that
11:52<pnda>I like 4 spaces = 1 tab the most, default in my text editor
11:52<+glx>in edit menu, theres a "spaces treatments" or something like that
11:52<nielsm>hmm I wonder if that makes a difference for anything?
11:53<nielsm>one of the thread tasks you can indicate is Games
11:53<Samu>line 185 is where i make vehicles
11:53<+glx>use the latest option to transform spaces in tabs
11:54<+glx>please convert spaces to tabs in your files and commit that
11:54<+glx>will be easier to read
11:55<LordAro>(or tabs to spaces, but consistency is better)
11:56<+glx>tabs is better, everyone can then use his prefered tab size
11:56<LordAro>i don't disagree, but the programming world has generally chosen spaces
11:57<+glx>oh another useful notepad++ option in the same sub menu is "remove spaces at end of lines"
11:59<+glx>but this one is less important when reading ;)
12:00<Samu>trim trailing space?
12:01<Wolf01>Hmmm, extenders seem to not work :/
12:02<Samu>wow looks better, I didn't know there was this kind of magic in notepad
12:02<Wolf01>Oh, ok, they changed completely how extenders are placed
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't tried extenders... i found some, but i have no real idea why to use them
12:04<+glx>seems you correctly move vehicle to m_group once built
12:07<+glx>so the problem maybe m_group itself
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12:14<Samu>must identify the problem yet
12:14<Samu>I'm not so sure why I have empty groups
12:15<Samu>m_group should be deleted if the route is empty
12:15<Samu>no vehicles
12:15<Samu>no stations, no depots
12:16<Samu>cleaning up the route
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12:19<+glx>but created groups never use by vehicles are not removed it seems as your code only use vehicle list
12:20<Samu>oh im not saving m_group :(
12:20<Samu>no wonder i was seeing weird groups after loading
12:22<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7227: Replace Window::scrolling_scrollbar with Window::active_widget
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>i also need an only-add and only-remove inhibitor
12:25<Samu>function GroupVehicles() { this thing needs either removal, or a rework
12:26<Wolf01>You can couple the inhibitor with the analyzer to only touch a particular colour of terrain
12:28<Wolf01>I also found the packager really usefull, it helps a lot when you are far away and find something bigger which still function, or research items
12:28<Samu>I don't need share orders to be done in that part
12:28<Samu>i think it is safe to remove
12:36<Wolf01>So, it's always a pleasure to fall with the entire train in a crater...
12:38<Samu>as for the aircraft groups
12:38<Samu>i'm getting
12:39<Samu>vehicles in the send_to_depot group[0]
12:39<Samu>that are not heading to depots
12:39<Samu>it is being used as a group for several air routes
12:39<Samu>i don't want that
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12:40<Samu>where did I fail
12:40<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] M3Henry updated pull request #7165: [core] Implement SmallVector using std::vector
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12:41<m3henry>The low hanging fruit is gone
12:43<andythenorth>yeah but yo
12:43<andythenorth>and hi
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>these caves in the arid planet are surely impressive, but i have no clue how to get up or down there
12:45<Wolf01>Just dig and make ramps
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>m3henry: "wiht"
12:46<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: that would make sense if i'm near the wall of the cave, but looks like i'm more like on the roof of the cave
12:46<Wolf01>Also consider to mod the terrain tool with a better drill mod
12:46<Eddi|zuHause>i have the 1st drill mod
12:47<Wolf01>Oh, I make ramps everywhere, you can see my ramps in the middle of a big cavern reaching for the ceiling
12:47<Wolf01>Use ctrl to keep the same inclination and go on :P
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>whenever i try that, i tend to fall off the sides to my death
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>because it goes slipping
12:48<Wolf01>Make them larger :P
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>i already got the wide mod :p
12:49<Wolf01>No, really larger, you can paint them how you want
12:49<Eddi|zuHause>i don't have 12 canisters with me :p
12:49<Wolf01>Maybe it's because I have like 130 hours on it, but I'm not dying of falling damage since.. a lot of time
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>on this arid planet i drop every 3 steps
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>usually i reload because i can't get to the body to retrieve things
12:53<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7178: Add AI and GS to framerate window
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12:55<m3henry>Eddi: :v
12:56<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7178: Add AI and GS to framerate window
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13:02<Samu>so, when will locks become 1-tile wide only? :p
13:06<Samu>how to detect wether a vehicle is already heading to a depot?
13:06<Samu>and stopping in it
13:07<Samu>is there a way that doesn't involve groups, or lists
13:07<nielsm>get current order and check for OF_STOP_IN_DEPOT flag?
13:08<nielsm>or well I guess you can't check the current order? only orders on the schedule?
13:09<Samu>that's what I wonder
13:09<Samu>is there a way?
13:09<Samu>all this trouble is because I don't know of a better way
13:10<nielsm>that is the way you would do it outside squirrel
13:13<Samu>group wasn't deleted :(
13:14<Samu> if (AIGroup.IsValidGroup(m_group)) {
13:14<Samu> AIGroup.DeleteGroup(m_group);
13:14<Samu> }
13:14<Samu>but it wasn't deleted
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13:20<@peter1138>Okay, found my bug. A simple negated test :p
13:21<@peter1138>Station Wrunnpool Pit removed from town Wrunnpool
13:21<@peter1138>Town at 43x12 (Wrunnpool) lost 1 stations
13:21<@peter1138>Yay :D
13:21<Samu>are u creating a ai?
13:21<@peter1138>Just saw Alita: Battle Angel. It's pretty... Hmm... yeah, no.
13:21<@peter1138>Samu, no, I'm working on catchment area stuff.
13:22<LordAro>peter1138: it looked rather dubious from the trailer
13:22<@peter1138>It is.
13:23*peter1138 checks the scrollback. Persistence, as it were.
13:24<@peter1138>Ok, I can't be arsed with that.
13:25<@peter1138>Turns out my test was negated so it removed all the stations, hehe.
13:26<Wolf01><peter1138> Just saw Alita: Battle Angel. It's pretty... Hmm... yeah, no. <- I could have seen it yesterday, but it didn't catch me
13:27<@peter1138>Whatever happened to bridge length limits?
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13:27<Samu>max length 64 i think
13:27<Samu>or is it 4096?
13:27<@peter1138>Oh there are some.
13:27<@peter1138>I thought the wooden bridge has a short limit too
13:27<nielsm>hm is there a better way to detect if any AI or GS are active at all than checking each company?
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>no, wooden was always somewhat infinite
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>nielsm: wasn't there a command for that?
13:30<nielsm>Eddi|zuHause: the context is framerate measuring and whether to do the total sum of all scripts
13:31<+glx>I don't think there's another way
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13:32<+glx>as AI instance is local to the company
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13:35<+glx>but AI:GameLoop seems to be a good place to plug your stuff
13:36<nielsm>I already am doing that for individual script measurements
13:36<@peter1138>Problem with using caches is keeping them correct :/
13:36<nielsm>the issue is making a sum of everything, and making sure that sum goes away when all scripts also go away
13:37<@peter1138>And basically edge cases, like a town shrinking. Is that still a thing...
13:37<nielsm>players bombing it?
13:38<+glx>removing the tile under the town name ?
13:39<@peter1138>Ooh, I should try that.
13:46<Samu>i found the problem!
13:47<Samu>this thing isn't removing correctly
13:47<Samu>must reinvent
13:48<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7227: Replace Window::scrolling_scrollbar with Window::active_widget
13:48<Samu>gonna make use of the removal scheduller
13:48<@peter1138>Pikka, was ever useful?
13:49<Pikka>not sure. It might have had something to do with drawing "detailed" junctions
13:50<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #7220: Change: Increase maximum number of orders from 64000 to ~16.7m.
13:51<@peter1138>Yes, the idea is you have to draw every combination instead the game combining bits.
13:51<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7178: Add AI and GS to framerate window
13:51<@peter1138>But the commit date is 2013...
13:51<@peter1138>I don't think anyone tested it :D
13:51<@peter1138>I can't remember who wanted, but I suspect it was based on that that you mentioned.
13:52<@peter1138>6 years ago... Maybe I should check IRC logs :D
13:53<@peter1138>Not even kidding.
13:53<@peter1138>Look at me being all sarky with Eddi|zuHause still :D
13:53<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7178: Add AI and GS to framerate window
13:53<@peter1138>13:01 <@peter1138> pikka, make a test grf!
13:53<@peter1138>^ haha
13:54<Pikka>I guess I got over the idea :P
13:54<@peter1138>It's a bit random, even then.
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>i probably said something about how that's not exactly what i wanted :p
13:56<@peter1138>You requested a new var.
13:56<@peter1138>peter1138: plus a 40+ variable that gives you x%2 + y%2 << 1 so you can vary the 3rd rail for left/right side and stuff
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>oh yeah, that too :p
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>"if we're gonna add railtype vars, might as well add all of them :p"
13:57<@peter1138>Yeah... it wasn't a railtype var ;)
14:05<Samu>glx, just solved the road vehicle groups being empty!
14:06<Samu>now, aircraft groups :|
14:06<Samu>different kind of problem
14:07<@peter1138>Hmm, AIs use distant join?
14:08<@peter1138>Guess they do. Neat.
14:09<Samu>my ai does
14:09<Samu>it abuses to win
14:09<Samu>well, it was in the original LuDiAI
14:09<Samu>i kept i
14:10<@peter1138>Yeah, nice.
14:10<@peter1138>Which one is yours again?
14:12<@peter1138>Oh, LuDiAI crashes :/
14:12<@peter1138>Oh, no, it was the gamescript. Oops?
14:12<@peter1138>Ah citybuilder.
14:14<Samu>AIAI also does it, but it misuses it
14:14<Samu>really weird to look at
14:15<Samu>yes, the distant join stations aren't connected to roads
14:15<Samu>they're just there
14:15<Samu>unconnected, bad for the looks
14:16<Samu>mine is LuDiAI Afterfix
14:17<Samu>I missed that question
14:17<@peter1138>Ah okay, I was using that one :-)
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>yay, my tractor fell through the perfectly flat terrain
14:27<@peter1138>Hmm, so that's the catchment area of all stations that cover that town.
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14:34<@peter1138>Funny though, attaching a station to a large airport doesn't really extend the catchment area at all.
14:34<@peter1138>Maybe it should :p
14:39<Samu>oh boy, looking at my aircraft group management is scary
14:39<Samu>groups suddenly poof and reappear
14:40<Samu>I ned to think, what could possibly cause an aircraft to be in the wrong group
14:41<Samu>i had aircraft in send_to_depot[0] group that weren't heading to depot
14:41<Samu>the group was being misused for several air routes
14:42<Samu>clone vehicle
14:42<Samu>must be that
14:43<Samu>too bad I can't make it happen when I want
14:43<Samu>can't reproduce
14:51<@peter1138>Kinda useful visualation.
14:51<@peter1138>Well, more useful if it only showed your own stations.
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>what happened to that tile highlighting patch?
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15:05<Samu> funny how things get displayed on github
15:05<Samu>it always wants a commit message...
15:08<Samu>fixed a typo
15:10<Samu> tile highlighting patch
15:11<@peter1138>Just debugging for my non-rectangular catchment
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15:16<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7227: Replace Window::scrolling_scrollbar with Window::active_widget
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15:28<@peter1138>LordAro, "tiny" bit of tiffin :o
15:28<LordAro>peter1138: yes please
15:28<LordAro>i just had a not-insignificant slice of victoria sponge
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15:36<@peter1138>LordAro, I just demolished
15:37<LordAro>very much yes
15:38<@peter1138>There's a certain theme to my instagram :p
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15:41<@peter1138>So, newgrf presets on bananas? :p
15:41<Samu>speaking of bananas
15:42<Samu>can't make it unavailable for 1.9.0
15:42<@peter1138>I don't think that link will work for anyone else.
15:42<Samu>maximum openttd version is 1.6.0, I need to input 1.8.0
15:43<+glx>1.9.0 doesn't exist yet
15:43<@peter1138>I think it doesn't contain the last few releases either.
15:43<Samu>it exist beta
15:43<@peter1138>I'm guessing based on Samu's 'description' though.
15:44<@peter1138>Samu, if OpenTTD versions are missing from bananas, what you could do is actually report a bug against it.
15:44<Samu>i dont know how to report banana bug
15:45<@peter1138>It doesn't seem to be on github, so you could try the website project.
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15:45<@peter1138>Just make it clear you are talking about banans,
15:45<@peter1138>And make it clear what the problem is, but that's normal.
15:45<@peter1138>Yes, you could attach that picture to your bug report, that would be useful.
15:46<+glx>bananas is still on the old infrastructure anyway
15:46<+glx>and I think there were discussion about rewriting it
15:47<+glx>bananas issues can go in openttd issues
15:49<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/website] SamuXarick opened issue #60: Can't select 1.8.0 as maximum openttd version
15:49<+glx>ha yes there's
15:51<Samu>too late
15:55<Samu>giving 2 more days for my AI testings
15:59<@peter1138>And dessert is... sliced kiwi, sliced half apple, and 1/4 tub of creme fraiche
16:00<@peter1138>Might have room for beese and chiscuits.
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16:13<andythenorth>I won!
16:13<andythenorth>yay me
16:13<@peter1138>What though?
16:13<andythenorth>Silicon Valley GS
16:17<andythenorth>also bed maybe
16:17<@peter1138>No, too early.
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16:33<@peter1138>nielsm, hmm, "captured_widget" maybe
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17:17-!-Flygon_ is "Flygon" on #openttd
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17:54<@peter1138>Mmm, beese and chiscuits.
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18:26<@peter1138>Hmm, what happened? So quiet :(
18:26<@peter1138>Oh yeah, of course, IRC is dead.
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18:27<milek7>i guess most people went to sleep
18:41<@peter1138>(since C++20)
18:41<@peter1138>Damn, can't use that :(
18:47<supermop_Home>IM DESIGNING A DONUT KIOSK
18:47<supermop_Home>in autocad
18:47<supermop_Home>so caps
18:48<supermop_Home>rather I designed it, now just annotating some elevations
18:48<supermop_Home>while it renders in rhino in the background
18:59<supermop_Home>90 minutes into this rendering I see that the espresso machine does not have it's material applied
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19:18<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN updated pull request #7235: New non-rectangular sparse station catchment area
19:32<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7235: New non-rectangular sparse station catchment area
19:46<@peter1138>Yay, all checks passed.
20:04<@peter1138>Oh, that's why my "git pr" command no longer works... my git version got upgraded and it includes one, but it works differently.
20:06<@peter1138>Or something else.
20:07<@peter1138>Ah, git-extras was installed.
20:08<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7242: Codechange: Improve performance of town name refresh on viewports
20:23<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7242: Codechange: Improve performance of town name refresh on viewports
20:31<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7242: Codechange: Improve performance of town name refresh on viewports
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21:26<Samu>what have you guys done to zoom?
21:26<Samu>it's so slow now
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---Logclosed Mon Feb 18 00:00:09 2019