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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-02-22

---Logopened Fri Feb 22 00:00:14 2019
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01:50<@peter1138>I added "make regression" to the end of .git/hooks/pre-commit, should be useful :-)
01:59<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN updated pull request #7262: Change: Smooth AI CPU usage by spreading out AI ticks in relation to competitor speed.
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02:20<@peter1138>Hmm, okay, not so good, it tries to compile when rebasing.
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03:15<@peter1138>andythenorth, I squashed nrt-block down a bit last night.
03:19<LordAro>i feel it's a little on the late side to be in 1.9
03:19<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN updated pull request #7235: Change: Non-rectangular sparse station catchment area
03:19<@peter1138>Aww :p
03:19<LordAro>better to have a whole year of testing for 1.10
03:19<@peter1138>Just removed the catchment visualization.
03:19<@peter1138>LordAro, I'll be honest, I think another whole YEAR is way too much
03:19<@peter1138>It's only a gasme.
03:19<@peter1138>And also a game.
03:20<@peter1138>We can have point-releases, or release 1.10 a couple of months later.
03:20<@peter1138>Releasing only on April 1st is a stupid tradition.
03:21<@peter1138>+471 −116
03:21<@peter1138>Station catchment got big :o
03:21<@peter1138>No, seriously.
03:21<@peter1138>We've had people developing NRT NewGRFs for longer than a year already.
03:22<@peter1138>supermop_work____ is about ready to give up on it.
03:22<LordAro>just my opinion, i don't mind either way
03:22<@peter1138>I accept maybe too late for 1.9
03:22<@peter1138>I don't accept a whole +1 year for 1.10
03:23<@peter1138>ffs now non-rect fails :(
03:23<@peter1138>fuck it
03:23<@peter1138>must've had a bad rebase :(
03:28<@peter1138>Ah, it was in the visualization commit ... sigh
03:30<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN updated pull request #7235: Change: Non-rectangular sparse station catchment area
03:33<andythenorth>too late for 1.9
03:33<andythenorth>so 1.9.x
03:33<andythenorth>or 1.10 in September
03:34<andythenorth>or we put a bleeding edge release track, in between stable and nightlies
03:35<LordAro>shouldn't be in 1.9.x (x>=1)
03:36<LordAro>screw it, put it in 1.9
03:36<andythenorth>forgiveness > permission
03:36<andythenorth>it doesn't regularly assert, and it hasn't munched my savegames
03:36<andythenorth>and if the commits were cleaned up, the nml support is 99% or 100% there
03:37<@peter1138>It'll get a lot of testing if it's included in 1.9 :p
03:37<andythenorth>our insistence that the major digit of semver never changes :P
03:37<andythenorth>is weird
03:37<LordAro>if we get up to 1.9.5, then i'll complain :p
03:38<andythenorth>we're never going to bump it, because we insist the API never breaks
03:38<andythenorth>so the 1 of 1.y.z is daft, just noise
03:38<LordAro>could be all Linus, and just bump the major version when he feels like it
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04:13<andythenorth>BBL eh
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04:21<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN updated pull request #7235: Change: Non-rectangular sparse station catchment area
04:34<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7178: Add AI and GS to framerate window
05:30<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nirasa1957 opened issue #7263: Programmable signals doesn't works
05:31<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on issue #7263: Programmable signals doesn't works
05:31<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN closed issue #7263: Programmable signals doesn't works
05:37<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7225: Add: Various AI/GS functions that may be useful.
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05:46<Eddi|zuHause><LordAro> could be all Linus, and just bump the major version when he feels like it <- didn't he say "i don't have enough fingers to count to 21"?
05:47<Eddi|zuHause>which is preposterous, of course. even without resorting to binary, you can count to like 60 with two hands
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06:43<@peter1138>Hm, is there a gui version of tig? :S
06:43<@peter1138>It's one of those text UIs where one wrong keypress loses all the state...
06:44<@peter1138>cursor keys change the selected commit
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>i feel like i heard about tig before, but then completely forgot about it
06:44<@peter1138>pgup/pgdown can be used to scroll the commit diff
06:45<@peter1138>i keep trying to use cursor keys to scroll the commit diff, as is logical
06:45<@peter1138>it even has some kinda of window focus, but that has no bearing on it
06:46<@peter1138>I liked my old version of gitg, that had a stash viewer.
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>i'd like a gui as intuitive as tortoisehg...
07:00<@peter1138>Is tortoisegit a thing?
07:03<Eddi|zuHause>it exists, but i found it horrible and unintuitive, like everything about git
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07:25<@peter1138>git makes sense when you ignore other vcs ;)
07:31<Eddi|zuHause>you could say that about any religion
07:31<@peter1138>git isn't faith, it's science :)
07:34<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN opened pull request #7264: Fix: Resorting file list did not update filtered rows.
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>no it's not. it's a set of arbitrary rules put up by more or less a single person
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>also, maths is the only true religion
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08:15<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN updated pull request #7235: Change: Non-rectangular sparse station catchment area
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08:17<andythenorth>git is very divisive
08:17<andythenorth>I find it really intuitive and easy to use, probably because I don't understand it
08:21<m3henry>I found to have the best explanation
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08:50<@peter1138>Samu, it's called "logic", by the way.
08:51<@peter1138>01:54 < Samu> i fail at bools :(
08:52<Samu>i actually failed at logic classes
08:52<Samu>working as intended
08:53<andythenorth>I avoided logic in my philosophy degree
08:53<andythenorth>it was a specific set of modules
08:53<andythenorth>wasn't much to do with bools
08:54<andythenorth>much more to do with this
08:54<andythenorth>bools are level 0 in that
09:06<@peter1138>Boolean logic, I suppose.
09:09<Samu> just tested stations of the same owner, it's doing fine
09:12<@peter1138>Same as last night.
09:12<@peter1138>00:50 <@peter1138> Samu, " } else { if { " -> " } else if { "
09:12<Samu>it's the same code
09:13<Samu>ah, that
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09:18<Samu>it works! that's all that matters to me
09:18<Samu>I have no idea why everything works
09:19<Samu>but it's doing good
09:19<Samu>now the else ifs that you request
09:21<@peter1138>It just stops it being massively indented for no rason.
09:22<Samu>oh, haven't tested owner_none stations
09:22<Samu>there is no easy way to test this
09:23<Samu>I need water industries that produce secondary cargo
09:23<Samu>firs doesn't have it
09:23<Samu>or if it does... plz tell me
09:25<Samu>speaking of firs...
09:25<Samu>they're newgrfs
09:25<Samu>i have absolutely no idea if this works for newgrf industries
09:25<Samu>time to test anyway
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09:32<andythenorth>samu: there are no FIRS water industries producing secondary cargos
09:33<andythenorth>not aware of any industry set doing that, it's highly unusual
09:33<Samu>dredging site accepts engineering supplies, I wonder if that's equivalent
09:35<andythenorth>well, depends what you're trying to do
09:35<andythenorth>newgrf industry production is non-trivial
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09:37<Samu>favouring companies that deliver the main product to have station priority transporting the transformed product
09:39<supermop_work_>andythenorth: vietnamese floating village?
09:39<Samu>company 1 delivers wood to sawmill, company 1 stations get priority when transporting goods from the sawmill
09:39<Samu>something like this
09:39<andythenorth>supermop_work_: more water industries are sought
09:41<Samu>but then firs has these weird industries that already produce cargo without needing to deliver the main product
09:42<Samu>coal mine already produces coal, but still accepts engineering supplies
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09:43<Samu>if i deliver engineering supplies, what would happen to coal production
09:43<Samu>who to prioritize that coal to
09:46<nielsm>yes that's not something you can answer in general, and that's why I proposed yesterday that per-company industry ratings needs additional variables/callback flags for newgrf industries
09:47<andythenorth>you prioritise to whoever has the highest rating
09:47<andythenorth>is that not working right?
09:48<Samu>i'm segmentating the production
09:48<Samu>wonder what happens to those engineering supplies, must test
09:52<Samu>it's not a rating system
09:53<Samu>it's working with cargo amounts
09:53<Samu>not cargo rating
09:53<andythenorth>why not just read the code? o_O
09:53<Samu>because i'm breaking the code
09:53<andythenorth>and what do you mean, it's not working with cargo rating?
09:54<andythenorth>cargo is distributed to stations based on station ratings
09:54<Samu>okay, it is, but that's only in the end of the chain
09:54<Samu>there's something happening in.between that I'm messing with
09:54<andythenorth>ok I can't help with that :)
09:55<andythenorth>if you want to highlight me with pings, pls actually have a question
09:55<andythenorth>I'm at work, these random pings are interrupting
09:55<andythenorth>I have to usually quit the channel because of them
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10:00<Samu>ah snap
10:00<Samu>firs ruin it
10:01<Samu>these engineering supplies aren't directly transformed into coal
10:01<Samu>i wonder why
10:02<@peter1138>Why would they?
10:02<nielsm>yes that's the way it works
10:02<@peter1138>Engineering supplies are like the tools needed by the industry to do its work.
10:03<@peter1138>They should increase its efficiency maybe, or they just provide somewhere to dump a cargo type.
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10:04<nielsm>they increase the production rate for a period of time
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10:15<nielsm>say, as far as I can tell, you can change someone else's sign, and then it becomes your sign, is that intentional?
10:15<nielsm>except for OWNER_DEITY signs, those are frozen (outside editor)
10:16<nielsm>okay well, the comment for CmdRenameSign says so
10:16<nielsm>"Ownership of signs has no meaning/effect whatsoever except for eyecandy"
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10:24<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #7235: Change: Non-rectangular sparse station catchment area
10:25<Samu>IndustryProductionCallback is failing me, or i fail at understanding what it's supposed to be doing
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10:42<nielsm>the production callback is a complicated beast to understand
10:43<Samu>just found a bug/typo
10:43<Samu>in my own code, fixed it, let's see now what changes
10:46<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7235: Change: Non-rectangular sparse station catchment area
10:47<Samu>num_adjusts = 7
10:48<Samu>7 adjustments, and i have no idea what exactly
10:49<Samu>0x41 now
10:50<Samu>ah, the 3 cargo types
10:50<Samu>but i thought there's 16 now
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10:51<Samu>don't newgrf industries support 16 cargos?
10:51<@peter1138>Yes, but original vars are still required.
10:52<nielsm>old newgrfs still need to work
10:52<Samu>firs is old?
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10:52<Samu>i just downloaded an update, but it's old
10:52<nielsm>it isn't using the new properties and callbacks
10:53<nielsm>so it's old
10:53<@peter1138>Age-wise it is old.
10:53<@peter1138>And it probably still needs to support 1.8
11:03<Samu>this whole 0x40, 0x41, 0x42 may need to be done in a different way, still not quite sure
11:04<Samu>each cargo has 16 owners
11:04<Samu>currently i get the cargo sum of all 16 and return a single value
11:05<Samu>but maybe I need to return the value per owner
11:05<Samu>and since this is newgrf stuff, i have absolutely no idea what needs to be done
11:06<nielsm>that's why I suggest the best course of action (initially) is to do nothing, and preserve the original behaviour al all respects, when an industry uses production callbacks
11:08<Samu>too chinese, too abstract
11:09<@peter1138>40/41/42 are there for compatibility.
11:09<@peter1138>They can't be changed.
11:10<Samu>i may need to turn 40/41/42 into 40[owner], 41[owner], 42[owner]
11:10<@peter1138>The replacement variable is 0x69, which takes a parameter.
11:10<Samu>something liek that
11:10<@peter1138>You can't change those variables.
11:10<nielsm>you cannot change 40/41/42
11:10<nielsm>they need to keep working exactly as they have always done
11:10<nielsm>otherwise you won't be able to use any existing industry newgrf
11:11<Samu>how do i pass the owner around?
11:11<nielsm>how indeed
11:11<nielsm>that's an open question
11:12<Samu>there's always a owner now
11:12<@peter1138>You probably don't want to.
11:12<Samu>or just the total sum
11:12<@peter1138>The industry doesn't have an owner.
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11:13<@peter1138>Industry varactions are not run in the context of a user.
11:13<nielsm>when a newgrf industry has production callbacks, the core game is no longer setting the rules for how goods is accepted and produced by the industry is, the newgrf author is making the rules
11:13<nielsm>if you change the rules, you're going to get every newgrf industry author angry at you for breaking their work
11:14<nielsm>for that reason YOU NEED TO keep a compatible mode, where newgrf industries keep working as they did without your patch
11:14<nielsm>even if the player has enabled your new rules in the settings
11:14<nielsm>if the industry is not designed to work with the new rules, it must not use the new rules
11:14<Samu>hmm, for compatibility purposes, openttd still sets owners now
11:14<nielsm>that's the curse of backwards compatibility
11:15<Samu>i am company 1 and deliver wood to sawmill
11:16<Samu>incoming cargo acceptance [wood][company1]
11:16<nielsm>you don't need to explain
11:16<@peter1138>Yeah but not all callbacks have a company.
11:16<nielsm>the compatibility with existing newgrf industries is why I keep telling you that you should first make a version of your patch where newgrf industries with production callbacks are not affected at all
11:16<@peter1138>These variables are also used for things like graphical variations. There's no owner there.
11:16<nielsm>and keep the old rules
11:17<Eddi|zuHause><nielsm> when a newgrf industry has production callbacks, the core game is no longer setting the rules for how goods is accepted and produced by the industry is, the newgrf author is making the rules <-- that's basically why "smooth economy" never really caught on
11:18<@peter1138>Smooth economy was around long before we had any cargo callbacks.
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>that is true, but there was never any effort to bring the two approaches together
11:20<Samu>i guess for "compatibility purposes" the sum of all wood will suffice
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>using prod callback just silently disabled smooth economy
11:21<nielsm>Eddi|zuHause well there is the monthly production rate change callback
11:21<nielsm>where the industry can decide to change production either by original or by smooth rules, or by its own rules
11:24<nielsm>when are we converting the base industries to newgrf?
11:25<@peter1138>We're not.
11:25<Samu>what's a PersistentStorage :|
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think we can
11:25<nielsm>Samu, a way for a newgrf to store data
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>because that means we drop the default values for existing newgrfs
11:26<Samu>ah, i see, just a weird name
11:26<nielsm>for example FIRS industries likely use a persisteng storage slot to store how many days/production ticks/whatever it has left of high production rate resulting from delivery of engineering supplies
11:27<nielsm>it's persistent storage as opposed to temporary storage which only exists during one callback chain execution and is then discarded
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11:32<nielsm>woah, my ViewportSignKdtree stuff compiles!
11:32<nielsm>now to see how hard it crashes :P
11:33<Samu>so it's storing engineering supplies in the persistent storage
11:33<nielsm>maybe? I don't know
11:33<nielsm>just guessing
11:34<Samu>current production gung-ho
11:34<Samu>well, this indeed doesn't need to know which company made the delivery
11:34<Samu>the total sum is fine
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11:35<Samu>however, this production is then... benefiting everyone equally
11:35<Samu>hmm hmm... .huuumm.....
11:37<Samu>are scrap yards supposed to produce this much ?
11:37<Samu>1700 tonnes a month
11:37<Samu>i need to compare this with base master
11:42<Samu>300 tonnes a month on master, 1500 on mine, something's wrong
11:43<@peter1138>Samu, I think you're going too low-level.
11:45<nielsm>okay, can load the title game without crashing now
11:45<@peter1138>That's useful.
11:46*peter1138 ponders some food before going home.
11:46<@peter1138>Go home on an empty stomach and fill it with b33r.
11:46<@peter1138>Hmm, only one bottle iirc. Could do wine.
11:46<SpComb>fill bottle with wine
11:47<@peter1138>It's already in a bottle.
11:47<@peter1138>Fill peter1138 with wine.
11:47<@peter1138>Then show me all your PRs.
11:47<nielsm>and can generate a new game as well!
11:48<@peter1138>Although I seem to have flooded the PR view :/
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>i heard drinking alcohol on empty stomach is particularly effective
11:58<nnyby>happy friday:p
12:00<Samu>26 adjustments holy crap, triggering industries is complex!
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12:02<Samu>still, a lot
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12:04<nielsm>Samu, consider that it will be AT LEAST as much change as this:
12:08<nielsm>and that took a huge amount of research and learning how to make industry newgrfs on my part to get (hopefully) right
12:10<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #7081: Change: [Linkgraph] Pause the game when linkgraph jobs lag (#6470)
12:21<Samu>I think I understand where the problem may come from
12:27<Samu>cases: 0x8D, 0x8C, 0x8B, 0x8A, 0x6D variable 0x69, 0x6F variable 0x6F
12:28<Samu>now in english if anyone knows how these are used
12:30*peter1138 is back
12:31<Samu>so all this stuff is new for 1.9
12:32<Samu>it didn't exist before
12:32<@peter1138>Because there was only 3-in/2-out or whatever.
12:32<Samu>and now I'm breaking it
12:35<Samu>0x69 0x69 i meant
12:35<Samu>failed at reading this
12:36<Samu>0x6F 0x6F
12:36<Samu>6A 6B 6C 6D 6E aren't touched
12:39<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN requested changes for pull request #7178: Add AI and GS to framerate window
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12:41<Samu>for some reason, the breakpoints don't reach any of these
12:41<Samu>doesn't use them
12:42<Samu>which means, the problem is elsewhere
12:48<Samu>oops, I can't use lengthof(i->produced_cargo_waiting)
12:48<Samu>or can I?
12:49<@peter1138>Hmm, how best to do station catchment visualisation...
12:50<nielsm>it would be cool if the combined catchment popped up when hovering the build tool adjacent to an existing station
12:50<@peter1138>That's what I'm thinking
12:50<nielsm>but that doesn't solve ctrl-combining
12:50<nielsm>nor if you want to view of an already built without adding more parts
12:50<@peter1138>Well, when using ctrl you can hover over the station in the "Join station" window.
12:51<@peter1138>The already existing view is easy, that was part of my debug visualization.
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>i think it should just be a button in the station window
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>show/hide catchment area
12:51<Samu>can I replace lengthof(i->produced_cargo_waiting) with INDUSTRY_NUM_OUTPUTS?
12:52<Samu>or am I doing it wrong?
12:52<@peter1138>Exactly. That's okay for viewing existing.
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>you can have one or more of those open while building a station, and you can have the existing switch in the station construction window
12:54<Eddi|zuHause>that should cover most use cases, depending on whether you want or don't want overlapping areas and stuff
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12:57<@peter1138>Hmm, I only allowed 1 station at a time, but yeah, could have a list.
12:58<@peter1138>I also did it for town and industries, which is possibly more useful.
12:58<@peter1138>But not everything is covered by a town.
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>... and then there was this tile highlighting patch where you could overlay two separate layers
13:01<Samu> how is this working?
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>i never actually used it, but i imagine that gui was a bit overloaded
13:01<@peter1138>What do you mean how?
13:02<Samu>what is it doing
13:03<@peter1138>It's adding production_rate to produced_cargo_waiting and limiting the result to 65535.
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>it does 3 things: 1) it takes the existing waiting and adds the production amount, 2) it applies a hard cap of 0xFFFF, and 3) it assigns the new value to the waiting amount
13:04<Samu>hmm, production_rate, how to solve this
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>read from right to left, mostly
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>(well, technically, from inside out)
13:06<Samu>i wonder if repeating production_rate 16 times is correct
13:06<Samu>must experiment anyway
13:06<@peter1138>Well, isn't that once per possible cargo type?
13:07<@peter1138>Ahhhh gotta love the original music :D
13:07<@peter1138>nielsm is a star.
13:07<@peter1138>I suppose timidity worked, but it was such a kludge.
13:08<Samu> for (Owner owner = COMPANY_FIRST; owner <= MAX_COMPANIES; owner++) {
13:08<Samu> i->produced_cargo_waiting[j][owner] = min(0xffff, i->produced_cargo_waiting[j][owner] + i->production_rate[j]);
13:08<Samu> }
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>i wonder if i still have a TTO backup somewhere. i definitely lost the original install disk, and my backup copies were already a bit corrupted back then
13:08<@peter1138>That definitely sounds wrong.
13:08<Samu>I think this is gonna be a problem
13:08<Samu>the production rate is for the total sum
13:08<@peter1138>Surely you on't want to increase cargo waiting depending on the company's rating?
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>surely you want also production_rate[j][owner]?
13:10<@peter1138>I actually think he wants none of that because I don't think it makes any sense.
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>well, different definitions of "want" :p
13:10<Samu>don't know what I want yet
13:10<@peter1138>What you probably want to do is store a value per company which represents the %age of goods supplied by that company.
13:10<@peter1138>Then you can share out the goods produced relative to the %age.
13:13<@peter1138>Hmm, thinking of an alternative to #7262
13:13<Samu>yep, this is not what I want, reverting
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>i was just having a random thought: you tried yesterday to have regression on a pre-commit-hook, and that failed because commits are done all over the place (rebase). is there maybe a pre-push-hook?
13:16<@peter1138>Yes, there is.
13:16<@peter1138>It's called... pre-push.
13:17<Samu>it works fine for the basic industries
13:17<Samu>then enters newgrf stuff, and everything fails
13:19<Samu>i still dont get how production gets so inflated
13:19<Samu>when i deliver engineering supplies
13:20<@peter1138>Well if you were adding it 16 times...
13:20<Samu>I reverted it, and it's not from here
13:20<Samu>must be somewhere else
13:21<Samu>looking at atm
13:27<Samu>it's probably here :|
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13:31<@peter1138>Hmm, maybe I just put it on the Land Area Information tool.
13:32<@peter1138>Select tile -> highlight catchment.
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13:34<Samu>alright, it's not so inflated now, but there's still no match
13:37<supermop_work_>hi andy
13:40<Samu>no match
13:40<Samu>not as inflated, but still wrong
13:40<andythenorth>supermop_work_: screenshots, or it didn't happen :P
13:41<Samu>as long as I don't deliver engineering supplies, the production matches
13:41<Samu>if I deliver engineering supplies, they do different :(
13:41<Samu>should do equal
13:43<Samu>what am i missing, what am i doing wrong
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13:52<andythenorth>what is the question?
13:54<frosch123>to be or not to be
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>it's not 42.
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>stop violating your invariant!
13:57<andythenorth>samu: I really fail to understand what your trying to make happen
13:58<Samu>wanna do what happens on st2 servers
13:58<nielsm>andythenorth: the end goal is to have each industry keep track of which company delivered how much cargo and distribute production to companies' stations based on how the ratio, something like that
13:59<andythenorth>that's not going to work :)
13:59<Samu>secondary cargo can only be transported by the company that delivered primary cargo
13:59<andythenorth>it's a meaningless objective
13:59<nielsm>even nicer:
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>that argument has never stopped anyone, ever :p
13:59<andythenorth>(meainingless in the context of openttd)
14:00<andythenorth>cargo should be distributed based on station rating
14:00<andythenorth>is that not already implemented?
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>nielsm: stop going out of bounds, too! :p
14:01<nielsm>Eddi|zuHause it seems I may have tried to draw the sign for a station that was destroyed when the title game was unloaded, but that station was not removed from the index tree
14:01<nielsm>so oops
14:02<Samu> they match!
14:02<Samu>but I'm kinda cheating
14:02<nielsm>I should get some food before continuing this quest
14:03<Samu>i'm moving cargo from the deliverer into the free for all pool
14:03<Samu>because newgrfs
14:05<Samu>which in turn means everyone would benefit
14:05<Samu>i guess for this type of cargo, that is okay
14:05<Samu>the industry produces for all
14:05<Samu>have to ask ST2
14:06<@peter1138>nielsm, Can you do the vscroll thing please? ;)
14:06<@peter1138>Hmm, or actually am I able to push to the PR?
14:07<Samu>ST2, u there!? in FIRS, what do you consider Scrap Metal/Engineering Supplies relationship?
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14:07<Samu>who's allowed to transport Scrap Metal if engineering supplies are also delivered there?
14:08<Samu>never been in a FIRS server :|
14:08<@peter1138>Anyone? Cargo is not owned.
14:09<Samu>server rules
14:09<Samu>but since engineering supplies is a different kind of specimen
14:10<Samu>I don't know how the rule is enforced for this case
14:14<andythenorth>you'll have to special case by specific industries in specific newgrfs if you want to do this
14:19<Samu>bah, i need to install 1.8.0 to enter a firs server
14:23<Samu>st2 is away :/
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>nielsm: so you didn't invalidate the cache on new game?
14:25<nielsm>Eddi|zuHause: rather I do it too late
14:27<nielsm>peter1138: you're welcome to push to my pr branch
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>i think i saw a checkbox like "developers can write to my PR"
14:28<zuzak>i think that's just "can edit the PR text"
14:28<nielsm>yeah it's on by default
14:29<nielsm>nope it is in fact pushing to the branch
14:29<nielsm>I've done it once or twice
14:30<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN updated pull request #7178: Add AI and GS to framerate window
14:35<nielsm>peter1138: then the question is just, split into a "make scrollable" and a "add ai/gs" commit, or just squash it all? :)
14:35<Samu>engineering supplies can also be a secondary cargo and a primary cargo at the same time, hmm uhm... im utterly confised now
14:36<Samu>pretty much, they're valuables?
14:36<Samu>i see
14:41<@peter1138>Hmm, I wonder if I can approve it now? :p
14:41<@peter1138>nielsm, yeah, go for 2 commits.
14:42<@peter1138>Hmm, so, staiton catchment... land query tool or button on station windows...
14:42<@peter1138>I'm fine with catchment for only 1 station being visible at a time
14:43<@peter1138>The town visualization is really useful
14:43<@peter1138>but the industry one is pretty odd, it's either in or not in.
14:47<andythenorth>samu: what's a primary cargo?
14:47<andythenorth>what's a secondary cargo?
14:50<@peter1138>Hmm, accepts is wrong :/
14:54<@peter1138>Oh... Strange, I never updated GetAcceptanceAroundTiles()
14:55<Samu>i dont get firs, it changes the way stuff normally works
14:57<@peter1138>Yes, that's the point.
14:58<andythenorth>I don't know how to explain
14:58<andythenorth>where do we start?
14:58<andythenorth>OpenTTD has a content API
14:58<andythenorth>it allows modification of substantial parts of the game
14:59*andythenorth amends that
14:59<andythenorth>OpenTTD has multiple content APIs
15:06<+glx>newgrf can change stuff, GS can change stuff
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15:09<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN updated pull request #7235: Change: Non-rectangular sparse station catchment area
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15:27<@peter1138>Yeah, acceptance looks good now.
15:27<@peter1138>Now matches the catchment, instead of the rectangle.
15:28<nielsm>well it works if I load a game... sort of
15:30<nielsm>I think it has to do with partial redraw :/
15:30<nielsm>it checks some rectangle and decides, nope don't need to draw any signs here
15:31<nielsm>then paints landscape over some existing signs that ought to be where
15:31<@peter1138>Ah, you need to extend your bounds.
15:32<@peter1138>Where should I put the view catchment button? These windows are kinda crowded :/
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15:34<nielsm>uh hm, how about merging location/rename buttons to a dropdown, then adding a toggle in place of rename?
15:35<@peter1138>Wondering about making a small icon but I can't think of anything that would scream out "catchment / coverage area"
15:35<nielsm> ugh
15:36<@peter1138>Yup, classic.
15:37<nielsm>just for the performance check, let me try a release build, and that 50k stations save
15:38<nielsm>that should stress it
15:39<nielsm> <- that's a bad stack :(
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15:41<Eddi|zuHause>i could have sworn i saw a TF station mod where you could split a platform into 2 and have a switch inbetween
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>but i can't find it
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15:52<nielsm>I think I figured this one out, it's a stack overflow
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15:53<nielsm>building a tree based on coordinates, while all coordinates are zero
15:53<nielsm>meaning it's impossible to balance at all
15:53<nielsm>it becomes a linked list down the right branch
15:53<nielsm>and with 50k+ elements that overflows the recursion :)
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16:05<nielsm>I should probably just use the entire viewport space for querying potential signs, rather than the pixel area being updated
16:05<nielsm>assuming this fixes the stack ovberflowing
16:07<nielsm>hm yeah it looks like it's busy doing the industries near thing now
16:07<nielsm>which is further than it got before
16:08<andythenorth>ok so consensus is achieved when people stop objecting
16:08<andythenorth>and no-one's objecting
16:08<andythenorth>can we jam it into 1.9.0?
16:08<@peter1138>After ... 2 days?
16:08<nielsm>that's a crude term
16:11<nielsm>hah yeah this is an improvement
16:12<nielsm>on master, panning around the landscape at halfway zoomed out is 40 ms/frame most of the time
16:12<nielsm>with k-d tree for signs it peaks at 6 ms/frame
16:12<nielsm>(but more commonly 3-4 ms)
16:13<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN closed pull request #7049: Fix #6599: Can still click on buy button in vehicle selection window even if no vehicle is selected
16:13<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7049: Fix #6599: Can still click on buy button in vehicle selection window even if no vehicle is selected
16:14<@peter1138>Is it faster because you're not drawing the whole sign? :p
16:15<nielsm>I don't think that's it :P
16:15<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN dismissed a review for pull request #7178: Add AI and GS to framerate window
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16:16*LordAro wonders if peter1138's PR count has exceeded Samu's
16:17<@peter1138>Nope, 12 vs 16.
16:18<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7000: Some NewGRF variables concerning railtypes
16:23<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7262: Change: Smooth AI CPU usage by spreading out AI ticks in relation to competitor speed.
16:30<nielsm>okay yeah problem here is I need a heuristic for the widest possible a sign can be
16:31<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7264: Fix: Resorting file list did not update filtered rows.
16:31<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7264: Fix: Resorting file list did not update filtered rows.
16:32<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7260: Fix #7227: Don't apply mouse-hasn't-moved test to scrollbars.
16:32<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7260: Fix #7227: Don't apply mouse-hasn't-moved test to scrollbars.
16:35<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7261: Add: Road vehicle path cache.
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16:44<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #7000: Some NewGRF variables concerning railtypes
16:46<Samu>I got a feeling I need to edit this
16:47<Samu>subtract_input and add_output
16:48<nielsm>Samu: it will be much less work to not change the game rules at all, but instead provide a few extra variables (and maybe storage) to newgrf industries to allow them to change the rules in more flexible ways
16:49<Samu>I'm kinda lost
16:49<Samu>at this point I'm pretty much giving up
16:50<Samu>I fail at explaining what I want to achieve, and newgrfs make it too abstract
16:51<andythenorth>they do that :P
16:51<nielsm>start by programming some newgrf industries yourself, using nml or whatever, to understand what goes on from that end
16:51<nielsm>not necessarily to make anything anyone would ever play with, but for the same of learning about the system
16:52<nielsm>for the sake of *
16:54<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7250: K-d tree data structure for spatial lookups
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16:56<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7250: K-d tree data structure for spatial lookups
17:00<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7261: Add: Road vehicle path cache.
17:02<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7261: Add: Road vehicle path cache.
17:04<nielsm> <-- peculiar, regressions fail on some builds but not all
17:05<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7261: Add: Road vehicle path cache.
17:08<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7250: K-d tree data structure for spatial lookups
17:09<Samu>a fatal NewGRF error has occurred ;(
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17:16<Samu>the end!
17:20<@peter1138>^ LordAro is that... actually better? :/
17:22<LordAro>maybe `if (steps > 1 && steps <= YAPF...) { ... } steps--;` ?
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17:22<LordAro>except steps-- inside the if
17:22<@peter1138>No because then it won't decrement if it's higher than the constant.
17:22<@peter1138>Oh, after.
17:23<LordAro>i guess i'm suggesting the logic could be reorganised, rather than just the code
17:23<LordAro>though i don't have ideas of how that could be
17:26<@peter1138>steps--; if (steps > 0 && steps < YAPF..) { .. }
17:27<@peter1138>steps > 0 is never necessary
17:27<@peter1138>if (--steps < YAPF_ROADVEH_PATH_CACHE_SEGMENTS)
17:27<@peter1138>Is that ok?
17:27<LordAro>i guess
17:27<@peter1138>Or just
17:27<@peter1138>steps--; if (steps < YAPF..) { .. }
17:27<LordAro>still not a fan of my if statements having side effects
17:28<@peter1138>Oh, hmm, might've had the printf in the wrong place.
17:29<@peter1138>Yeah, > 0 is necessary.
17:30<@peter1138>It should never go below 0 (ignore that it's unit)
17:30<@peter1138>... uint
17:31<@peter1138>It doesn't add the last step because that's the track that's returned from the pathfinder.
17:31<@peter1138>Maybe we need a path cache for aircraft...
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17:34<@peter1138>Wentbourne still works :-)
17:35<LordAro>peter1138: surely aircraft pathing is trivial?
17:35<@peter1138>LordAro, it was a joke. There isn't any.
17:36<Samu> - if anyone wants to peak at my experimentations
17:36<Samu>i can't advance it further :|
17:36<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN updated pull request #7261: Add: Road vehicle path cache.
17:37<@peter1138>You're still trying to have separate cargo waiting for each company...
17:39<Samu>it was working for vanilla industries
17:39<Samu>but then newgrf got in the way... and RIP
17:40<@peter1138>18:10 <@peter1138> What you probably want to do is store a value per company which
17:40<@peter1138> represents the %age of goods supplied by that company.
17:40<@peter1138>18:10 <@peter1138> Then you can share out the goods produced relative to the %age.
17:40<@peter1138>I don't know if I mentioned that.
17:41<@peter1138>Might be a path worth trying, 4.5 hours ago.
17:46<Samu>isn't that what I've done?
17:46<Samu>not a percentage though
17:47<nielsm>I had not heard this term before
17:47<@peter1138>No, you seem to be messing about by splitting up the whole of the industry chain by company
17:48<nielsm>keep in mind that conceptually, the player companies in TT are not buying and selling cargo, they are paid to transport it
17:49<nielsm>industries buy cargo from industries, companies are paid for doing the logistics of getting it from A to B
17:49<@peter1138>It's definitely not the company's cargo.
17:49<@peter1138>It is reasonable, though, to share out that cargo (when moving goods to stations) based on ratings.
17:49<@peter1138>Which is already done.
17:49<nielsm>(and if you want a game with better simulation of industries having deals with other industries, play simutrans)
17:49<@peter1138>So I think you really just want to be fiddling with the rating algorithms.
17:50<@peter1138>nielsm, simutrans smells though :(
17:50<Samu>dont know what simultrans is
17:51<Samu>another game?
17:51<nielsm>yes, it's a proper clean slate transport tycoon-like
17:51<nielsm>written from the ground up
17:51<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7261: Add: Road vehicle path cache.
17:52<nielsm>(rather than being based on disassembly and reverse engineering of an original game which ottd is)
17:52<@peter1138>I started out playing Simutrans before I got into OpenTTD.
17:52<@peter1138>It's probably improved a bit since then.
17:52<@peter1138>Then again I tried it last year and it was still horrible.
17:53<_dp_>this whole cargo topic was brought up by mp gameplay needs not some industry simulation whatever
17:55<nielsm>I think it would be a better solution to provide extra tools to newgrf authors, to let them implement special rules for sharing/distribution of cargo among companies
17:55<nielsm>and keep the base game unchanged
17:56<_dp_>nielsm, passing the problem to newgrf authors is not a solution :p
17:56<@peter1138>nielsm, I think you've lost sight of what Samu was trying to achieve, because of the way he's been trying to go about it.
17:56<_dp_>nielsm, also sharing logic part of a game mode, newgrfs shouldn't deal with it
17:57<_dp_>nielsm, GS could though if only it didn't suck
17:58<andythenorth>it does though
17:58<andythenorth>because newgrf
17:58<andythenorth>GS is crippled forever
17:58<_dp_>nerf newgrfs! xD
17:59<_dp_>actually it's not only because of newgfs
18:00<@peter1138>GS could be improved if there was someone interested in writing a GS _and_ improving the API.
18:00<_dp_>like newgrfs have nothing to do with GS not being able to do reliable callbacks
18:01<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN updated pull request #7261: Add: Road vehicle path cache.
18:01<_dp_>peter1138, it's not just api, GS engine has to change as well
18:02<@peter1138>Okay. What needs to change?
18:02<_dp_>peter1138, 1 command / tick
18:03<_dp_>peter1138, and if we talk about callbacks any execution delay in general + operation limit I guess
18:03<@peter1138>Ok, that's because there's a delay in how commands are sent :/
18:04<_dp_>peter1138, yeah, I know why :)
18:04<_dp_>peter1138, doesn't change that it needs to go :p
18:05<_dp_>I was actually thinking to patch citymania servers to get rid of that delay
18:05<_dp_>but then I got rid of GS altogether
18:05<@peter1138>I'm thinking that delay should not apply to GS.
18:06<@peter1138>I don't know if it actually solves anything though.
18:06<@peter1138>It's not going to make the GS be executed again.
18:07<@peter1138>The command system kinda works like syscalls on a co-operative multitasking system (e.g. old RISC OS)
18:07<@peter1138>Except there is the max opcodes thing as well :)
18:08<andythenorth>bring back RISC OS :P
18:08<andythenorth>and a three-button mouse
18:08<@peter1138>Can we speed up the CI? :/
18:09<LordAro>not without giving MS large sums of money
18:10<@peter1138>Not sure if it's possible to execute commands on the server and then queue it to send to the clients.
18:11<_dp_>peter1138, should be fine as long as order stays the same
18:11<@peter1138>Yes, I was thinking in terms of already-queued commands, dunno though.
18:12<@peter1138>Not just the same order, they have to be on the same tick.
18:12<@peter1138>Why the heck am I listening to Enigma?
18:13*andythenorth should bed
18:13<andythenorth>watching a documentary about Dre though
18:14<_dp_>peter1138, yeah, I basically consider tick change to be another command
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18:48<@peter1138>Ooh. Vivecraft for 1.13.2
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19:35<@peter1138>Hmm, CPU usage up :/
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19:48<drac_boy>hi there .. historic question: was 3-axle freight wagons generally only for uk milks or did it abound anywhere else as well? (baggage cars kinda doesn't count in this sorry)
20:00<drac_boy>also just had to wonder after friend asked me. is this just a selective usercase or is there any reason why osx doesn't react to ctrl+apple+c but rather ctrl+option+c instead for the cheat dialog
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20:41<drac_boy>hi superpeter ;) heheh
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21:36<drac_boy>anyway going sleep soon here
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21:43<Samu>subtract_input, add_output, i finally start to see how this works
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21:58<Samu>enum IndustryCallbackMask {
22:08<@peter1138>What about it?
22:14<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN opened pull request #7265: Fix #7004: Mark linkgraph dirty to be rebuilt on next draw call.
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22:31<Samu>there may be a way to do what I want
22:32<Samu>will have to think about it for tomorrow
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---Logclosed Sat Feb 23 00:00:15 2019