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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-03-08

---Logopened Fri Mar 08 00:00:34 2019
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00:28<nnyby>i think i just got 8bpp blitter working, using an 8bit sdl shadow surface. and then blitting to a 32bit surface when displaying to screen. this is how the 1.2 driver works. i'll add a new commit to my branch
00:30<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nikolas updated pull request #7086: Change #6173: Update SDL driver to use SDL 2.0 https://git.io/fhamZ
00:32<nnyby>really a small change, and things are already in place to make this work
00:42<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nikolas commented on pull request #7086: Change #6173: Update SDL driver to use SDL 2.0 https://git.io/fhpjB
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02:22<@peter1138>Morning.
02:22<andythenorth>moin
02:33<andythenorth>hmm
02:33<andythenorth>Horse!
02:51<LordAro>neigh
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04:11<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7086: Change #6173: Update SDL driver to use SDL 2.0 https://git.io/fhhf0
04:16<andythenorth>eh that's an interesting idea
04:16<andythenorth>port-type industries that build next to rivers
04:16*andythenorth might need to redesign these industries
04:17<andythenorth>@seen pikka
04:17<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 2 days, 16 hours, 32 minutes, and 16 seconds ago: <Pikka> eek
04:17<andythenorth>ook
04:17<andythenorth>so 1.9 is done, what's next?
04:22<@peter1138>Approval and merging.
04:23<andythenorth>I pulled the SLD 2 PR
04:23<andythenorth>SDL even
04:23<@peter1138>I was about to merge it, then I found it was very unfinished.
04:25<@peter1138>https://www.reddit.com/r/openttd/comments/ayny1n/river_going_through_a_stockyard/
04:25<@peter1138>^ That one, yes?
04:25<andythenorth>subjectively assessment of SDL 2 performance on Mac OS
04:25<andythenorth>"about the same"
04:25<andythenorth>peter1138: ^^^ winner, winner, chicken dinner
04:26<@peter1138>Yes but that doesn't mean it's good yet :p
04:27<andythenorth>a long time ago
04:27<andythenorth>in a galaxy far far away
04:27<andythenorth>it was hoped that SDL 2 would allow 'full animation' to be used once more
04:28<andythenorth>but it probably doesn't, yet
04:28<@peter1138>What?
04:28<@peter1138>Why can you use full animation?
04:28<@peter1138>*can't
04:28<andythenorth>been nerfed for years
04:28<@peter1138>It's been working for years.
04:29<andythenorth>there was a change either in Apple's graphics drivers, or in Intel hardware about 8 years ago
04:29<andythenorth>palette animation is fucked
04:29<@peter1138>Palette animation totally works.
04:29<andythenorth>I've had two credible explanations
04:29<@peter1138>OpenTTD hasn't use 8bpp modes by default for 5 years.
04:29<andythenorth>1. Apple or Intel removed drivers
04:29<@peter1138>Palette animation is done internally by OpenTTD.
04:29<@peter1138>It works.
04:29<andythenorth>2. there isn't enough bandwidth between graphics cards and CPU
04:30<@peter1138>So what are you talking about?
04:30<andythenorth>with 'full animation' off graphics rendering averages 0.4ms
04:31<andythenorth>with 'full animation' on, it averages 0.6ms
04:31<@peter1138>Ok?
04:31<andythenorth>but
04:31<andythenorth>this is on an empty map, and scales horribly as the map gets busier
04:33<andythenorth>with 'full animation' off, a month takes 3s on FFWD
04:33<andythenorth>with 'full animation' on, a month takes about 27s on FFWD
04:33<andythenorth>pretty nerfed
04:33<@peter1138>That's not broken.
04:33<@peter1138>That is normal.
04:33<@peter1138>Because it's redrawing the screen.
04:34<andythenorth>welll on Mac OS it was a performance regression about 8 years ago
04:34<andythenorth>it used to be substantially faster on FFWD with full animation on
04:34<@peter1138>8 years ago FFWD with full animation off wouldn't've taken 3s
04:34<andythenorth>no
04:34<@peter1138>It's only since that change I made.
04:34<@peter1138>8bpp is faster for palette animation, yes.
04:35<andythenorth>hang on what's the command to show bllitter?
04:35<@peter1138>But absolutely no OS supports 8bpp modes these days.
04:35*andythenorth looks
04:35<@peter1138>So we do it in software.
04:35<@peter1138>This is slower, but that's obvious
04:35<@peter1138>Is not broken.
04:35<@peter1138>When you say "palette animation is broken", that would be somethhing like the colours are fucked up or it just plain doesn't animate.
04:35<andythenorth>no that got fixed
04:36<@peter1138>That was broken *because* it was trying to use unsupported 8bpp mode.
04:37<andythenorth>let's try some blitters
04:37<@peter1138>3s vs 27s is normal.
04:37<@peter1138>3s is actually a bug.
04:38<@peter1138>It wasn't really intended to skip viewport frames being rendered.
04:38<@peter1138>With FFWD, it is basically animating the palette as fast as it can.
04:38<andythenorth>yeah don't fix that bug :)
04:39<andythenorth>or give me a flag I can compile with to keep it ;P
04:40<andythenorth>yeah all blitters perform about the same
04:41*andythenorth thinks of evil option
04:42<andythenorth>suppress animation in FFWD
04:43<andythenorth>basically, I really like animated water
04:43<andythenorth>and I really like being able to FFWD very fast to test newgrf
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05:23<Eddi|zuHause>... or we could do palette animation with shaders
05:24<@peter1138>Yes if you rewrite the rendering system.
05:24<Eddi|zuHause>"how hard could it be"
05:24<@peter1138>Wellllll
05:29<@peter1138>Maybe I'll get it another go.
05:30<@peter1138>*give
05:30<@peter1138>https://stackoverflow.com/questions/30741695/pbo-indexed-color-texture-rendering-with-palette-in-fragment-shader-not-working
05:30<@peter1138>Something something
05:33<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: You could just finish and test https://github.com/michicc/OpenTTD/tree/opengl :)
05:33<+michi_cc>I might have to rebase it tough, still using old commit message syntax :p
05:34<Eddi|zuHause>in which world do i ever "finish" anything?
05:35<+michi_cc>It is working fine on my Windows system. Last time somebody tried it it didn't work there, but I don't have their system to test, so...
05:40<@peter1138>I think I had a crash but didn't investigate much.
05:41<@peter1138>michi_cc, that uses textures for surfaces but not individual sprites like my old patch, right?
05:42<+michi_cc>Yeah, it's mostly a new window driver, not a complete blitter replacement.
05:42<+michi_cc>I did start a bit on individual sprites as you can see with the accelerated mouse cursor stuff.
05:43<@peter1138>That's a big job though. You'd need to create spritesheets on the fly, and then use VBOs for tiles, and maybe chunks of tiles.
05:47<@peter1138>OpenGL started to go mad with individual textures for each sprite :)
05:47<@peter1138>And creating a sprite sheet needs some kinda of sprite pre-loading.
05:47<@peter1138>So the sprite cache system needs to... change.
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05:56<@peter1138>https://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=207389
05:56<+michi_cc>peter1138: There's a reason why the branch is where it is :p
05:56<@peter1138>Hmm, well...
05:56<@peter1138>michi_cc, yeah, but that isn't necessary to see an improvement, right?
05:57<@peter1138>andythenorth, try this https://github.com/PeterN/OpenTTD/commits/delay-palette-animation
05:57<@peter1138>It needs SDL of course.
05:59<+michi_cc>Results vary with graphic hardware, but it should help those system very challenged with palette animation, especially if used with the "40bpp" blitter.
06:00<+michi_cc>peter1138: OSX is not using SDL by default.
06:01<@peter1138>michi_cc, I'm aware, hence why I specified :)
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>vehicles at 4x zoom need smoother movement and animation...
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>but "someone" rejected #5300
06:24<Eddi|zuHause>maybe i should include something like that in #7000 (yay feature creep!)
06:28<@peter1138>Yeah progress gets some funny values sometimes.
06:28<Eddi|zuHause>i think we fixed those
06:30<Eddi|zuHause>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7018 <-- maybe.
06:32<@planetmaker>I think that was reverted
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see anything
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: as far as i can tell, those lines are still there in src/train_cmd.cpp
06:36<@peter1138>It wasn't reverted, a suitable fix was found.
06:37<@peter1138>Apparently I can delete andythenorth's branch for that PR. I wonder why he hasn't? :p
06:37<@planetmaker>ah
06:38<@planetmaker>peter1138, did you manage to import grfcodec? Today it succeeded for me
06:38<@peter1138>Basically the signal timers were said to be "days" but actually weren't.
06:38<@peter1138>We made them days :-)
06:38<@peter1138>planetmaker, yes I did, I posted the URL in that other place.
06:38<@planetmaker>k
06:38<@peter1138>But really it needs to be in OpenTTD :-)
06:39<@peter1138>We've got nml already, makes sense to take over grfcodec from openttdcoop.
06:39<@peter1138>Means we can update it with all the new NewGRF features.
06:40<@planetmaker>of course it should be in OpenTTD
06:43<@peter1138>I don't have permission to do that.
06:43<@planetmaker>I guess I can just as well try to clone it to OpenTTD
06:44<@planetmaker>hm... [x] Azure Pipelines? I guess, yes
07:21<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nikolas updated pull request #7086: Change #6173: Update SDL driver to use SDL 2.0 https://git.io/fhamZ
07:27<@planetmaker>hm, we also should clone OpenGFX, OpenSFX and OpenMSX to the openttd account...
07:29<@peter1138>Oooh
07:29<@peter1138>I've been telling everyone we don't maintain them :p
07:31<@planetmaker>we should though
07:32<@planetmaker>you cannot play OpenTTD w/o base graphics. And we have some which we can offer. We do offer them. So we should put that under OpenTTD umbrella, too
07:33<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nikolas updated pull request #7086: Change #6173: Update SDL driver to use SDL 2.0 https://git.io/fhamZ
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07:38<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nikolas updated pull request #7086: Change #6173: Update SDL driver to use SDL 2.0 https://git.io/fhamZ
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07:39<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nikolas commented on pull request #7086: Change #6173: Update SDL driver to use SDL 2.0 https://git.io/fhhkQ
07:40<andythenorth>planetmaker I wondered about moving them under OpenTTD
07:40<andythenorth>I think we do need to recruit maintainers
07:40<@planetmaker>so they do
07:40<@planetmaker>however without base sets OpenTTD is back to <1.0 time
07:41<andythenorth>did you see my forum post? :) https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=84911
07:41<@planetmaker>they're as essential as the game itself
07:41<@peter1138>I have the DOS and Windows originals, they're not essential ;)
07:41<@planetmaker>I know you all do not like it. But that's not how you can offer a game
07:42<@planetmaker>"yeah, i got some nice code. But please go buy here this game so you can play mine"
07:42<@planetmaker>disgusting
07:42<@peter1138>Btw, I never said we shouldn't add them to OpenTTD's github, just that we haven't.
07:42<@planetmaker>and drooling on the misery of the state of graphics and sound etc to make this game a true game on its own right
07:43<@peter1138>If we do, I will update my posts that say we don't maintain them.
07:43<@peter1138>I see you have imported grfcodec \o/
---Logclosed Fri Mar 08 07:43:20 2019
---Logopened Fri Mar 08 07:47:08 2019
07:47-!-mikegrb [~mikegrb@mikegrb.netop.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
07:47-!-Irssi: #openttd: Total of 102 nicks [5 ops, 0 halfops, 2 voices, 95 normal]
07:47<@peter1138>andythenorth, bundles can poll github to check for changes, no?
07:47<@peter1138>And that can be done anonymously.
07:47<@planetmaker>peter1138, bundles doesn't poll anything
07:47<andythenorth>that just gets source
07:47<@planetmaker>nor can it
07:47<@peter1138>Ok.
07:47<andythenorth>bundles is just publishing
07:47<@planetmaker>it gets artefacts pushed by build service
07:47<andythenorth>I was actually going to write a ticket for this
07:47<andythenorth>I spent last week banging my head on Azure
07:47<andythenorth>and got both progress, and depressed about it
07:48<@peter1138>Okay, so what build service does it use at the moment?
07:48<andythenorth>jenkins
07:48<andythenorth>which is replaceable trivially by AP
07:48<@peter1138>Ok...
07:48<@peter1138>jenkins can pull from github
07:48<@planetmaker>everything NewGRF build on devzone
07:48<andythenorth>I've got FIRS building on AP
07:48<andythenorth>TB is pretty adamant we should use AP
07:48<@planetmaker>but providing ssh access to any servce... no issue either
07:48<@planetmaker>AP?
07:48<andythenorth>Azure Pipelines
07:48<@planetmaker>oh
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07:49<andythenorth>apart from "the AP UI is fucking awful", it's really good
07:49<@peter1138>Yes I'm sure, but it's trivial to switch jenkins to pull from git, rather than reimplementing it all in AP.
07:49<@planetmaker>jenkins already pulls from git for current nml repo
07:49<andythenorth>yes, that could be a migration step, but it's probably not a destination
07:49<@peter1138>Sure.
07:49<andythenorth>I'll make a paste
07:49<@peter1138>But it's better to do that than not have anything
07:49<@peter1138>No, don't doa Samu.
07:50<@planetmaker>does anyone have a server available which one could use to update all of devzone?
07:50<@planetmaker>for a month or so?
07:50<@peter1138>What does it need?
07:50<@planetmaker>currently it has all repos - they could be moved to github before
07:50<@planetmaker>it has jenkins. it has bundles.
07:51<@planetmaker>https://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/server.txt <-- currently running stuff
07:52<@planetmaker>eints is a critical one. The translator for everything
07:52<@planetmaker>everything newgrf and baseset
07:53<@peter1138>So just the devzone stuff, or everything?
07:54<@planetmaker>idealy I'd shortly move everything. Update hypervisor and immediately move back all stuff
07:54<@planetmaker>and then conveniently update the VMs on my own server one by one
07:54<@peter1138>Switching to a modern hypervisor?
07:55<@planetmaker>though... I could probably try to update the HV from centos6 to 7 without prior migration
07:55<andythenorth>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pvvikkhmh/9a46f9/raw
07:55<@planetmaker>currently openvz. But yes, that would need updating too. centos7 would allow docker. I'd use that then
07:55<@planetmaker>at least that's my plan
07:55<@peter1138>Ah, switching to docker containers rather than VMs
07:55<andythenorth>^^ I'd make a ticket, but I'm not sure where I'd make it right now :P
07:55<@peter1138>Sensible for resources.
07:55<@planetmaker>would suffice for most things. I don't have anything windows
07:56<andythenorth>planetmaker: have I missed anything in that paste?
07:56<@planetmaker>andythenorth, ticket for what?
07:56<andythenorth>explaining the problem
07:56<andythenorth>as always, people try to help, but without knowledge of the problem, suggested solutions aren't always viable
07:56<andythenorth>and we have to make the problem clear :)
07:56<@planetmaker>hm... where. Good point
07:57<andythenorth>we're in limbo currently
07:57<andythenorth>transitions are hard :)
07:57<@planetmaker>There is IMHO no big issues to keep eints running either
07:58<@planetmaker>both bundles and eints are pretty small applications with little cross-dependency
07:58<@planetmaker>my real main concern is: I need to update the HV... which I consider risky without contingency
07:58<andythenorth>this was really helpful for keeping TB sane https://trello.com/b/6j90aRB1/openttd
07:58<andythenorth>or at least as sane as TB gets
07:58<@planetmaker>hehe
07:59<andythenorth>I was hoping we'd make progress on this today :)
08:00<andythenorth>first thing is to know what 'this' is :)
08:00<@planetmaker>Upgrade DevZone / Migration of repos to github
08:00<andythenorth>ok, it has a title :)
08:01<@planetmaker>I didn't yet see anything missing in your past
08:01<@planetmaker>e
08:01<@planetmaker>not sure really about azure though
08:01<@planetmaker>but yes... let's try
08:01<@planetmaker>but that would be kinda the last step :)
08:02<andythenorth>do I miss anything? where does newgrf wiki live?
08:02<@planetmaker>tt-f server
08:02<@planetmaker>oh rud ge's ;)
08:08<@peter1138>OpenGFX importing? Woo
08:09<@peter1138>Shall I update my posts now? :D
08:09<@planetmaker>first try gave me a 500 on github. 2nd is running :P
08:09<@peter1138>I'll wait til it's actually done it, I guess.
08:09<@planetmaker>^
08:10<@peter1138>https://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=206713
08:10<@peter1138>^ That's going to be somewhat nerfed with non-rect-catchment.
08:11<@peter1138>Well, can also extend with extra tiles, heh.
08:11<@peter1138>Might be an argument for massive platforms and loading extra to have a large catchment.
08:12<@peter1138>But that's separate.
08:13<Heiki>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/README.md#72-supported-compilers mentions “GNU Compiler Collection (GCC) 3.3 - 4.4, 4.6 - 4.8.”; surely some newer gcc versions could be mentioned as well?
08:13<@planetmaker>un-nerfing that is not difficult. I don't see a big issue, peter1138
08:13<@peter1138>Not really an issue :)
08:13<@planetmaker>and it's a definitive win on grasping the situation more intuitively
08:14<@peter1138>I'd be surprised if 3.3 actually compiled us...
08:14<@planetmaker>indeed. And indeed
08:15<andythenorth>hmm, wonder if nmlc builds with pypy
08:16<@planetmaker>I didn't have success
08:16<andythenorth>did frosch write a custom cpython module for part of nmlc?
08:16<andythenorth>for speed
08:16<@planetmaker>yes
08:16<@planetmaker>for sprite encoding
08:16<andythenorth>"Several studies even suggest that PyPy is about 7.5 times faster than CPython."
08:17<@planetmaker>which was a definitive speed-up
08:17<andythenorth>it was
08:17<andythenorth>when it shipped, it cut FIRS compile times below 1 min
08:18<andythenorth>anyway, nml is a digression :)
08:18<andythenorth>we need to pin down this coop infra / service plan
08:18<andythenorth>:)
08:18<andythenorth>planetmaker: have you had a go with the Azure Pipelines interface?
08:19<LordAro>4.8+ is C++11 support, iirc
08:19<LordAro>might need 5 for C++14
08:40<@planetmaker>andythenorth, not much yet. First thing for that is to create a build docker container. Otherwise azure is pointless
08:46<andythenorth>well
08:47<andythenorth>there are positives and negatives
08:47<andythenorth>the positives are, once I understood what was needed, building FIRS was easy
08:47<andythenorth>the negatives are
08:47<andythenorth>- learning the AP web interface is about one day of rage
08:48<@planetmaker>so you build it using azure?
08:48<andythenorth>yes
08:48<@planetmaker>oh,i see
08:48<andythenorth>- nearly all the docs are useless, they are accurate, but they link off to other Azure things all the time
08:48<andythenorth>- and reference services that may or may not be available
08:48<@planetmaker>then please implement that in a general manner to make it useful
08:49<andythenorth>- there is *absolutely no way* we could offer this as a general service to newgrf authors
08:49<andythenorth>it's a total brain fuck at first
08:49<andythenorth>but TB thinks we can template everything
08:49<andythenorth>I honestly think that even moving authors to Github is going to be very hard
08:49<@planetmaker>tbh I don't feel like I will be doing that with azure docker any time soon.
08:49<andythenorth>there's no rush
08:50<andythenorth>devzone isn't broken
08:50<andythenorth>it's just not the future
08:50<@planetmaker>it becomes 50% less useful since you are not using it any longer
08:50<andythenorth>for me, the nice thing about devzone is that it was an easy to user service that did everything
08:50<@planetmaker>similar motivation to fix anything ;)
08:50<andythenorth>use / user /s
08:51<andythenorth>telling authors, 'first create a github account'
08:51<andythenorth>'then create a microsoft account'
08:51<@planetmaker>yes, I think that will be a big hurdle.
08:51<@planetmaker>Similar, they will have to relearn from mercurial to git
08:51<@planetmaker>Dear, I tell you, that's a stony unpleasant path
08:51<andythenorth>'then authorise an Azure Pipelines -> Github service connection"
08:51<andythenorth>"then create API keys"
08:52<andythenorth>"then create github pages account"
08:52<andythenorth>"then create a special branch for github pages"
08:52*andythenorth is over-exagerating, but tried all of this last week
08:52<@planetmaker>well. That's what *I* did for every author who asked. Just for the services on my server
08:52<andythenorth>users are gonna be like, 'fuck all that, I'll use dropbox'
08:52<andythenorth>or just post code in forums
08:53<@planetmaker>create repo, install key, explain procedure, setup jenkins, adopt build scripts, if needed, ...
08:53<@planetmaker>that simply doesn't scale
08:53<andythenorth>nope
08:53<@planetmaker>yes, they will. I'm sure, too
08:53<@planetmaker>that saddens me
08:54<@planetmaker>there's now one user of DevZone left really. Maybe two: George and the WAS people. And myself
08:54<@planetmaker>Everything else is about... abandoned
08:55<andythenorth>yeah me and George mostly https://dev.openttdcoop.org/activity
08:55<Eddi|zuHause>well, you can migrate all repos to github, but don't ask people to do that manually...
08:55<andythenorth>planetmaker: Ammler was confusing PITA sometimes, but loss of Ammler = loss of some of the enthusiasm
08:56<andythenorth>and loss of yexo was mega :(
08:56<@planetmaker>definitely
08:56<@planetmaker>also
08:56<andythenorth>I don't like bothering spike when the infra breaks
08:56<@planetmaker>I've been doing that a few times already
08:56<@planetmaker>I have his mobile number :P
08:56<@planetmaker>but I'm not fond of doing that either
08:56<andythenorth>oof, based on activity, it really is just me and George
08:57<andythenorth>I was thinking this was a bigger problem
08:57<andythenorth>my assumption was that we need to build a web service for non-technical grf authors
08:57<andythenorth>which is easy to use
08:57<andythenorth>and I don't know how to do that
08:57<andythenorth>but there really aren't any active
08:58<@planetmaker>I have a jenkins project which somewhat works like "put your zip file with code and graphics here and we build your newgrf"
08:58<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds a bit over the top
08:58<@planetmaker>https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/view/DevZone/job/upload-test/
08:58<@planetmaker>5 years ago :P
08:59<andythenorth>there are plenty of active grf projects in forums, but not many that are building long-term software projects
08:59<andythenorth>that's probably fine
08:59<andythenorth>some stuff is disposable, we don't need to worry about the longevity of it
08:59<@planetmaker>Well. My main motivation back then was to offer a place to collect NewGRF projects. So that it becomes easy to find them
08:59<@planetmaker>the rest then evolved from that
09:00<@planetmaker>well... so we can conclude: let's scrap it altogether. No-one needs it
09:00<@planetmaker>no one will shed a tear
09:01<@planetmaker>I'm sure the russian Guys will miss it though... sometimes I have the feeling they rely on the build service for building
09:02<Eddi|zuHause>well, the build service not building was a major setback for CETS
09:02<andythenorth>what's minimum viable?
09:02<@planetmaker>why actually?
09:03<andythenorth>actually talk CETS first, I'll ask my questions in a bit
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i've never understood why it's not working. it was relying on custom nml, and one or more steps in that failed
09:04<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: building the custom nml binary, or using it, or both
09:04<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, yes... I didn't quite work it out either... it *should*... but somehow doesn't
09:04<@planetmaker>you want to investigate yourself?
09:04<@planetmaker>give me your ssh key and... look through
09:04<Eddi|zuHause>i have no hope of finding anything out that way...
09:05<@planetmaker>how would you have hope?
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>i'm hopeless with figuring out build systems
09:06<@planetmaker>being on the system, it's not much more than debugging some shell scripts
09:06<andythenorth>they're usually just ill-documented and the errors are opaque
09:06<@planetmaker>jenkins does not more than executing shell scripts
09:06<andythenorth>but build systems are just pipelines and triggers
09:06<@planetmaker>in our case
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>it's nothing to do with the specific build system used
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>it was always this way
09:07<andythenorth>oof
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09:07<andythenorth>funny how brains work
09:07<andythenorth>I can't think easily in trees :P
09:07<andythenorth>but build systems...they're just pipes
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>i need someone to tell me "put your code here" and a button "build it"
09:08<andythenorth>takes all sorts to make a world ;)
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>i have a similar problem with using GUI frameworks
09:09<andythenorth>they're just configuration
09:09<andythenorth>and event handling
09:09<andythenorth>'just'
09:09<andythenorth>:P
09:09<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause ok you do the data structures and recursive trees, and we'll do the pipelines :P
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09:10<@planetmaker>I actually would like to scratch everything. And then try to build a completely new stuff. But when I'm honest with myself: I totally lack the time and knowledge to get that going in any forseeable timeframe
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09:11<@planetmaker>ammler was ... insane enough to just do that on live systems
09:11<andythenorth>well, my shopping list is this
09:11<@planetmaker>s/live/production/
09:11<andythenorth>1. repository
09:11<andythenorth>2. continuous integration
09:12<andythenorth>3. artefact publishing (including, optionally, html docs)
09:12<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like a plan, do it :)
09:12<@planetmaker>hm
09:12<andythenorth>there are a couple of extras that are nice to have, I have no real need
09:12<@planetmaker>maybe I should really do it
09:12<@planetmaker>1) move everything to github
09:12<andythenorth>4. continuous deployment (tagged releases -> bananas via musa)
09:12<@planetmaker>then everything else is not so important anymore as the code is the single most important thing
09:12<andythenorth>5. issue tracker (I don't really need them)
09:13<andythenorth>I also find the redmine 'files' tab incredibly useful, although I could just post to forums
09:13<andythenorth>but I use it a lot
09:13<@planetmaker>I'll start migrating all repos to the openttdcoop 'team' on github
09:14<andythenorth>I also use coop pastebin a lot, but there is just pastebin.com
09:14<andythenorth>one thing we have at work, that I miss here: https://etherpad.org/
09:14<andythenorth>we don't use it often, but it's incredibly useful when we do
09:14<andythenorth>mostly making outlines of specs
09:14<andythenorth>or refining problem definition
09:15<@planetmaker>it's nice indeed
09:15<@planetmaker>I think we once had briefly etherpad.o.o :P
09:15<andythenorth>repos -> github, with current jenkins
09:15<andythenorth>would be good
09:15<@planetmaker>hm, 504 on it :P
09:15<andythenorth>but anyone relying on mercurial for action 14 version number, will have a bad time
09:16<andythenorth>alberth has a possible fix for that
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>really, just count revs since tree root
09:19<@planetmaker>yes... that would work for 98% of the cases... probably good enough
09:19<@planetmaker>been thinking about that, too
09:19<andythenorth>yes that might also be a solution Eddi|zuHause
09:19<@planetmaker>currently some use 'days since 2000'. That's possible with git as well
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>that works, except when you use build on push..
09:20<andythenorth>so if I publish multiple branches of FIRS, which one gets which rev?
09:20<andythenorth>it is acceptable to get broken results btw
09:20<andythenorth>as long as they're predictable in advance when designing the system
09:21<andythenorth>using nightly/push builds of newgrfs can come with health warnings
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: each branch needs its own linear build number, possibly with changed GRFID
09:21<andythenorth>but not clown shoes surprises
09:21<andythenorth>changing GRFID has some problems
09:21<andythenorth>there are multiple moving parts
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i see no sane way to synchronize build numbers between branches
09:21<andythenorth>no me neither
09:21<@peter1138>What happened to Ammler & Yexo?
09:22<andythenorth>I think we have to choose what breaks
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so just live with it
09:22<@planetmaker>ah, it doesn't matter if two branches in a newgrf repo have the same indicated version, does it?
09:22<@planetmaker>peter1138, they simply disappeared
09:22<andythenorth>planetmaker probably not, unless something else makes the wrong assumptions
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: imho the case is rare enough to not worry about
09:22<@planetmaker>busy with RL ...
09:22<andythenorth>yexo is working at Google as an SRE
09:22<@peter1138>Drifted off, much like I did, I guess.
09:22<andythenorth>and Ammler just disappeared
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09:23<@planetmaker>SRE?
09:23<andythenorth>site reliability engineer
09:23<@planetmaker>ah... yes, google tells me :P ty
09:24<@planetmaker>last time I stalked him he was still at DekTec
09:24<@peter1138>Basically people grew up and got real jobs, eh?
09:24<@planetmaker>seems so
09:24<@peter1138>OpenGFX still importing, eh?
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09:25<@planetmaker>no. Failing consistently. I opened a service ticket with github
09:25<@peter1138>Oh :(
09:25<@planetmaker>I might do it by hand... if needed
09:25<@peter1138>Yuck
09:25<@planetmaker>but that's dreadful :|
09:25<@peter1138>Have you tried the other repos?
09:25<@peter1138>OpenMSX/OpenSFx.
09:25<@planetmaker>so waiting for an easy solution. No, I haven't yet
09:26<@planetmaker>I've started to import all coop repos from top to bottom to the github coop account
09:26<@planetmaker>fun stuff like 2cctrainset
09:26<@peter1138>Nice.
09:26<@peter1138>Is there a repo limit?
09:27<andythenorth>yeah Yexo https://www.linkedin.com/in/thijs-marinussen-82b5204/
09:27<andythenorth>sorry about LinkedIn, it's worse than Hitler or something :(
09:27<@planetmaker>I will find out about a repo limit :)
09:27<@peter1138>:)
09:27<@planetmaker>if there is... there'll be an openttdcoop2 and openttdcoop3 and ... :P
09:28<@planetmaker>does github offer the option to archive repos?
09:28<andythenorth>if the repo has eints commits, it seems to make broken commits
09:28<andythenorth>which github chokes on
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09:28<@peter1138>:/
09:28<andythenorth>frosch knows how to fix
09:29<@peter1138>\0?
09:29<andythenorth>yeah people grew up and got jobs :P https://www.openttd.org/contact.html
09:29<@peter1138>Scrap the history and import afresh from the last commit? :p
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09:29<@peter1138>andythenorth, did that branch work? :p
09:29<@peter1138>It's SDL 1.2...
09:30<@peter1138>Dunno if that's compileable on OS X.
09:30<andythenorth>peter1138 that PR?
09:30<@peter1138>Not a PR yet, just a branch.
09:30<andythenorth>didn't try it
09:30<@peter1138>k
09:30<andythenorth>I just pulled this and built it https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7086
09:30<andythenorth>that compiled fine
09:31<andythenorth>16 people listed on contact page, 6 are active contributors, 7 are gone and 3 are occasional
09:31<@peter1138>Fuck it, I'm eating the last Biscoff Lotus biscuit...
09:31<andythenorth>you should
09:32<@peter1138>To be fair, it's just a twin pack anyway, but "last" sounds more dramatic.
09:32*andythenorth wonders if that contact page is pointless or not
09:32<andythenorth>surely this is better? https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/graphs/contributors
09:32<@peter1138>Contact should be "info@openttd.org" only :p
09:32<@peter1138>Or translators@
09:33<@peter1138>Yeah, just the top 3.
09:33<andythenorth>when I rebuild the website, we decided not to confuse that with changing content
09:33<andythenorth>rebuilt *
09:33<@peter1138>Yes I understand.
09:33<andythenorth>but we could change it now
09:33<@planetmaker>that is totally fine
09:33<andythenorth>PR
09:33<@planetmaker>yep
09:33<@peter1138>Btw, I think the credits window in game needs to scroll faster.
09:33<@planetmaker>though doesn't hurt to have the active people e-mail listed there... but is it useful? Dunno
09:33<@peter1138>It used to speed up with FFWD but that doesn't happen now :p
09:33<andythenorth>anyone can PR and I can approve https://github.com/OpenTTD/website
09:34<andythenorth>peter1138: credits window, what where?
09:34<andythenorth>witchcraft
09:34<@peter1138>Question Mark menu - About OpenTTD
09:35<@planetmaker>does it already mention some of the newer contributors?
09:35<andythenorth>wow
09:35<andythenorth>yeah that's....slower than star wars
09:35<andythenorth>oh is this why samu asks for 'expert in x'? :P
09:35<@peter1138>I wonder if 60ms or even 30ms is better.
09:35<@peter1138>Nah, I doubt he's looked at it.
09:36<andythenorth>I am pretty certain Alberth never ever wants to be referred to as 'GUI expert'
09:36<andythenorth>I like inactive section
09:36<andythenorth>"TrueBrain.... (active)"
09:36<andythenorth>mega lolz
09:37<andythenorth>didn't Ludde go on to invent Spotify or something?
09:37<@peter1138>µTorrent
09:37<@peter1138>60ms is okay, that's 1 pixel every 2 game ticks.
09:37<@peter1138>Because that's a relevant figure...
09:38<Eddi|zuHause>is it scaled with font size?
09:38<@peter1138>Probably not :)
09:38<@peter1138>Thanks for reminding me to check.
09:39<Eddi|zuHause>it probably should :)
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09:39<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nikolas updated pull request #7086: Change #6173: Update SDL driver to use SDL 2.0 https://git.io/fhamZ
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09:40<Eddi|zuHause>as in, measure line height, divide that by constant, and scroll by that amount
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09:47<@peter1138>All important stuff, eh.
09:51<+michi_cc>peter1138: Updated my opengl branch to current master.
09:51<@peter1138>Oh nice.
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: make it a draft PR?
09:54<+michi_cc>It is Windows only for now and didn't work for the one I got feedback from; seems less-than-draft to me.
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09:56<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: might make it easier to find next time :)
09:57<@peter1138>It's not PRs get merged ;)
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09:57<@peter1138>..
09:57<@peter1138>It's not like PRs get merged ;)
09:57<@planetmaker>yeah... they start to pile-up...
09:58<@peter1138>I should just make less of them.
09:58<supermop_work>yo
09:58<@peter1138>Quality of quantity.
09:58<@peter1138>*ove
09:58<@peter1138>*over
09:58<@peter1138>Jesus
09:58<Eddi|zuHause>so much for that :p
09:58<@planetmaker>anyway... RL calls... see ya tomorrow or sunday
09:58<@peter1138>So much for that!
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10:00<andythenorth>how do you find quality without quantity? :P
10:00<andythenorth>quality is just a sieve
10:00<andythenorth>more PRs!
10:00<@peter1138>Alright
10:01<andythenorth>but also cull some, not necessarily yours either :P
10:01<@peter1138>I've got about 2 hours tonight before I go to watch Captain Marvel.
10:01<@peter1138>Cull by approving.
10:03<@peter1138>24 commits of replacing SmallVector with std::vector
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>tgp is weird... "perlin noise with large primes", and then it uses "small primes" (53, 101, 167)
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10:09<Eddi|zuHause>i'm about to dive into a rabbit hole, i think... http://staff.fh-hagenberg.at/burger/publications/reports/2008GradientNoise/Burger-GradientNoiseGerman-2008.pdf
10:12<andythenorth>tgp is weird
10:13<andythenorth>shall I put a novelty PR in for fixing tropic?
10:13<andythenorth>then someone can reject it
10:13<@peter1138>You have a patch for it?
10:13<@peter1138>I wish my own variant was faster.
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>i was looking into using perlin noise with the rivers, instead of pure randomness
10:14<@peter1138>Perlin works nicely when you use it in multiple layers, but TGP doesn't work for that.
10:15<@peter1138>Needs to use off-map storage, and then you're talking lots of RAM.
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10:15<@peter1138>Although, it's only world gen, so maybe it's okay.
10:16<Eddi|zuHause>i wasn't about to rewrite tgp (yet), was just looking for a function i can reuse as river priority function
10:16<@peter1138>I had ;)
10:17<@peter1138>Variety works much better as a perlin-overlay.
10:18<@peter1138>And there's some techniques to make nicer valleys.
10:24<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth opened pull request #7340: Change: replace tropic landscape map gen rules https://git.io/fhhmJ
10:25<andythenorth>I fully expect that to get closed, but eh, it makes my maps better
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: tgp also has this weird sine transform, that kinda conflicts with variety i feel
10:27<andythenorth>it flattens everything down
10:27<andythenorth>I did try just deleting bits of TGP before, there are quite "interesting" results from that
10:33<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #7231: Add: Add flag and railtype sprite type to draw pre-combined ground sprites. https://git.io/fhhm0
10:35<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #7289: Add: Configurable ship curve penalties (YAPF) https://git.io/fhhmg
10:35<andythenorth>\o/
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10:36<Eddi|zuHause>as far as i got in this document, it says here you need a reproducible mapping from integers into real [-1,1] interval, which you can either do with a hash function, or storing random values into an array
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>the bits of tgp i read is that he uses a hash function here
10:37<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #7336: Add: AI API for vehicle group colours https://git.io/fhhmw
10:37<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #7335: Fix #7334: Ship lost after crossing bridge due to path cache not being consumed while on final bridge end. https://git.io/fhhmr
10:39<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #7234: Feature: Game setting to define how industries with neutral stations accept and supply cargo from/to surrounding stations. https://git.io/fhhmi
10:40<andythenorth>eh the climate selection buttons at game start have inconsistent padding
10:40<andythenorth>on 2x UI zoom
10:41<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9294/asymmetrical_padding.png
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>rounding error?
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>missing scale factor somewhere?
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10:48<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth opened pull request #7341: Change: add windowshade to rail station construction window https://git.io/fhhmy
10:49<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #7301: Feature: When filtering purchase list by cargo type, make buy button perform a refit if required. https://git.io/fhhm9
10:50<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #7336: Add: AI API for vehicle group colours https://git.io/fhhmQ
10:51<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc closed issue #7334: Ships are lost around aqueducts with YAPF https://git.io/fhpcN
10:51<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #7335: Fix #7334: Ship lost after crossing bridge due to path cache not being consumed while on final bridge end. https://git.io/fhp4Y
10:51<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7341: Change: add windowshade to rail station construction window https://git.io/fhhm5
10:52<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #7289: Add: Configurable ship curve penalties (YAPF) https://git.io/fhN1H
10:52<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #7234: Feature: Game setting to define how industries with neutral stations accept and supply cargo from/to surrounding stations. https://git.io/fhhmF
10:56<Eddi|zuHause>max height[mapsize]: { 10, 11, 17, 19, 49, 63, 73 }, ///< Mountainous <<-- who came up with these values? there seems to be quite a bit of a jump there from 19 to 49
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10:58<+michi_cc>Someone from the whole more heightlevels stuff?
11:03<Eddi|zuHause>i think we should completely revisit this approach at some point :)
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11:07<Eddi|zuHause>also, why is tgp bothering with these fixed point types, when all the maths casts it to double anyway?
11:10<andythenorth>how about we do something good? :D
11:10<andythenorth>it would be fun
11:11<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, because map-array.
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>also, i think tgp does the interpolation wrong, it seems
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>well "wrong" is relative here, since it's all arbitrary anyway
11:12<@peter1138>Yes, it's designed for speed, not 'correctness'
11:13<@peter1138>I remember dealing with that one :)
11:14<@peter1138>I'll be able to rebase my PRs in about 1hr30m.
11:22<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7341: Change: add windowshade to rail station construction window https://git.io/fhhYC
11:23<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7341: Change: add windowshade to rail station construction window https://git.io/fhhYl
11:24<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7341: Change: add windowshade to rail station construction window https://git.io/fhhY8
11:24<@peter1138>I've just realised there's an online file editor... o_O
11:24<@peter1138>Ew, not nice to use.
11:25<@peter1138>andythenorth, regarding padding, padding is never scaled by zoom level. This is why it sometimes looks a bit odd.
11:26<andythenorth>I didn't notice until today
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>we used the online editor for the news posts, it was nice for that
11:28<@peter1138>Also some sprites are slightly different sizes and use offsets to position them, which can mess up the centring code.
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11:28<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, yeah, not so much a 1000 source file :-)
11:28<@peter1138>andythenorth, fix your PR ;)
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>i can imagine :)
11:29<@peter1138>"It'd be nice if the "jungle" was more coherent to a "region", like an entire mountain, instead of a blob of the mountain, but I really have no idea how that could be achieved."
11:29<@peter1138>That ... can be acheived with perlin layers ;)
11:30<@peter1138>Or even achieved.
11:30<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #7341: Change: Add windowshade to rail station construction window https://git.io/fhhYz
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>while at it, we should also find a nicer method to make water borders
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>instead of this jagged shore cut off
11:32<@peter1138>Sure. You can guess...
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>do i have 3 guesses?
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>can i wish for more wishes?
11:33<@peter1138>:D
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11:34<@peter1138>Hmm, wonder if I still have my old railtypes newgrfs.
11:34<@peter1138>There were some I created when developing the feature.
11:35<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7231: Add: Add flag and railtype sprite type to draw pre-combined ground sprites. https://git.io/fhhYw
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11:36<Gwyd>hi is planetmaker around?
11:36<@peter1138>Nope.
11:37<Gwyd>okay, you can probably help though
11:37<@peter1138>Go for it.
11:39<Gwyd>I've drawn the 4 missing sprites for OpenGFX and written the code for them. I pm'd andythenorth on tt-f, which he forwarded to planetmaker, who asked me if I have a patch for the source code. I don't know how to go about writing/generating this.
11:39<@peter1138>Ok
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11:40<@peter1138>Did you modify the existing OpenGFX code?
11:40<Gwyd>Yes, from OpenTTDcoop Dev zone
11:41<@peter1138>Did you use mercurial or just downloaded the source as a zip file type thing?
11:41<Gwyd>download as a zip
11:41<@peter1138>Ok, then the answer is you don't have a patch :D
11:42<Gwyd>so it would be more helpful to post an issue to the repository, with the files and their appropriate locations attached?
11:43<@peter1138>I would have suggested trying to use mercurial, but we are in the process of moving it off that.
11:43<@peter1138>Yeah, I think there's an issue open already?
11:44<@peter1138>If you post the files to that then they are at least there for someone else to deal with.
11:44<Gwyd>I'll update the current issue then
11:45<@peter1138>Thanks.
11:51<@peter1138>Gwyd, nice design :)
11:51<@peter1138>Is the position really correct, though? All the way over to the left?
11:52<Gwyd>yes, I checked against the current sprites
11:53<Gwyd>I initially thought they would be centred but I checked /sprites/png/gui/gui04.png
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12:23<Eddi|zuHause>the rabbit hole deepens: http://staffwww.itn.liu.se/~stegu/simplexnoise/simplexnoise.pdf
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12:44*peter1138 ponders
12:44<@peter1138>Mushrooms, onion, chicken...
12:44<@peter1138>Rice...
12:44<@peter1138>Hmm
12:45<@peter1138>Oooh, sweet potato sag aloo
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>i had fried potatos with onions, pork and eggs
12:45<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN updated pull request #7234: Feature: Game setting to define how industries with neutral stations accept and supply cargo from/to surrounding stations. https://git.io/fh5qg
12:45<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN dismissed a review for pull request #7234: Feature: Game setting to define how industries with neutral stations accept and supply cargo from/to surrounding stations. https://git.io/fhhmi
12:46<@peter1138>andythenorth, fixy fixy?
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12:47<@peter1138>Hmmm, need to find my 3D glasses
12:50<Samu>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7184
12:50<Samu>this would improve AIs
12:50<Samu>because they tend to pick the same stuff
12:51<nielsm>it would not "improve AI's", it would make their choice of routes less unviable
12:52<Samu>"yes"
12:53<@peter1138>I'm not opposed to it per se.
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12:54<@peter1138>Which AI uses groups sensibly?
12:54<nielsm>IMO it removes some of the element of competition and could make multiplayer more bland
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12:56<@peter1138>Distribution is still dependent on rating, no?
12:56<nielsm>yes, but when everyone gets a chance there's much less incitement to be the very best
12:57<nielsm>if you have three companies each with one station, ratings 80%, 78%, and 76%, they'll get almost equal amounts, and there's not really any reason for the 76% company to do any better
12:58<nielsm>while the current system where only the top two stations get any at all, it forces the third company to compete harder
12:58<nielsm>and that makes for more interesting gameplay, I think :)
13:01<@peter1138>How does the 3rd company compete if they don't get anything?
13:02<@peter1138>It's also worthwhile posting these sorts of thoughts to the PR, so others can consider them.
13:03<Samu>hmm
13:03<Samu>i could change. maybe 50% for the top
13:04<Samu>and the rest is divided between the other stations
13:04<nielsm>I'd suggest trying to distribute by the ratio of the squares of the ratings
13:04<Samu>ratio of the squares of the ratings... uhmm help
13:04<Samu>example ?
13:04<nielsm>I'll write a comment on the PR detailing it
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13:13<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN merged pull request #7336: Add: AI API for vehicle group colours https://git.io/fhp00
13:17<@peter1138>Yup, I actually tested an AI commit ;)
13:18<Samu>hmm colours is something that doesn't attract me much
13:18<@peter1138>Does not matter, other people requested it, and players can do it.
13:18<Samu>Content Update 3.6.0 -- Path of Exile: Synthesis
13:18<@peter1138>Testing #7231 will be tricky.
13:18<Samu>yay
13:19<@peter1138>Update queued...
13:19<@peter1138>Ready to launch in approximately 8 hours. Hmm.
13:19<@peter1138>9.1 GB update, nice.
13:19<@peter1138>And I don't even play it.
13:20<Samu>Allocating Space, zzz
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13:21<Samu>the league is starting in 1h40m if i'm not mistaken
13:21<@peter1138>I don't know what that means.
13:21<Samu>The Synthesis Challenge League
13:22<@peter1138>Oh, I found some 2017 diffs.
13:23<@peter1138>A fix for #6155
13:23<Samu>no one here plays poe i guess
13:23<Samu>https://www.pathofexile.com/game
13:24<@peter1138>^^^
13:24<@peter1138>I have it installed, I loaded it once, that's about it.
13:24<@peter1138>"lol.diff"
13:24<@peter1138>Well, that's encouraging.
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13:25<@peter1138>"stuff.diff" similar
13:25<@peter1138>Hahaha
13:25<@peter1138>That contains an old patch to remove the group name uniqueness 'feature'
13:25<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7184: Feature: Distribute cargo to multiple stations or industries https://git.io/fhhs3
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13:29<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh approved pull request #7234: Feature: Game setting to define how industries with neutral stations accept and supply cargo from/to surrounding stations. https://git.io/fhhsC
13:30<@peter1138>Wait for it!
13:30<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN merged pull request #7234: Feature: Game setting to define how industries with neutral stations accept and supply cargo from/to surrounding stations. https://git.io/fh5qg
13:33<Samu>gonna experiment with nielsm suggestions
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13:39<andythenorth>daylength strikes again
13:40<andythenorth>also what do I need to fixy fix?
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13:47<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened pull request #7342: Backport #7338 https://git.io/fhhsw
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13:50<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened pull request #7343: Backport #7327 https://git.io/fhhsP
13:50<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened pull request #7344: Backport 7335 https://git.io/fhhs1
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13:52<Samu>uint cur_worst = amount * pow(st->goods[type].rating, 2) / pow(ratings_sum, 2);
13:52<Samu>let's see :)
13:53<nielsm>don't use pow()
13:53<Samu>pow is double float?
13:53<Samu>ok what do i use?
13:53<nielsm>just do x*x
13:53<nielsm>also, it's sum of squares, not square of sum
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13:54<nielsm>x*x + y*y + z*z is not equal to (x+y+z) * (x+y+z)
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13:54<nielsm>if you take the ratio of squares to ratio of square of sum you get a useless value
13:54<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7301: Feature: When filtering purchase list by cargo type, make buy button perform a refit if required. https://git.io/fhhsH
13:56<LordAro>nielsm: not that it *really* matters, but i'd just use a single PR for backporting purposes
13:56<nielsm>can do that next time :P
13:56<nielsm>not like issue numbers cost money :)
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13:58<Samu>uint cur_worst = amount * st->goods[type].rating * st->goods[type].rating / ratings_square_sum;
14:00<nielsm>maybe?
14:01<@peter1138>"Rebase to master"
14:01<@peter1138>Yeah, that's not all that useful :/
14:01<nielsm>what I did before writing up that comment on the PR was put some numbers into Excel and try out a couple formulas
14:01<nielsm>to see how the distribution ended up
14:02<nielsm>(putting some numbers into excel and experimenting with formulas is a common game balancing technique, by the way)
14:04<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nikolas updated pull request #7086: Change #6173: Update SDL driver to use SDL 2.0 https://git.io/fhamZ
14:10<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN updated pull request #7261: Add: Road vehicle path cache. https://git.io/fhFw4
14:13<nielsm>"PfnChooseRoadTrack pfnChooseRoadTrack = &CYapfRoad2::stChooseRoadTrack; // default: ExitDir, allow 90-deg" --- I can't imagine a road pathfinder that would disallow 90 degree turns :P
14:14<@peter1138>nielsm, there was actually a template for it there, just never used!
14:16<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN updated pull request #6811: Feature: Add NotRoadTypes (NRT) https://git.io/vhlfg
14:18<nielsm>peter1138: did you test road path caching with bridges and tunnels?
14:18<nielsm>(do I need to? :P)
14:18<DoppelD27>Good evening. Is there a way to find Wiki Pages which are not translated to german yet?
14:18<@peter1138>nielsm, indeed, no I haven't.
14:19<@peter1138>nielsm, due to the tile being involved, it will appear to work fine.
14:19<@peter1138>So it needs a deeper investigation than for ships.
14:27<nielsm>okay it handles the local road reconstruction harrassment fine (as well as you could expect)
14:28<@peter1138>:)
14:29<@peter1138>It'll handle bridges and tunnels fine, but may unnecessarily invalidate the cache.
14:29<@peter1138>Although actually, in the RV cache it explicitly doesn't add tiles that are not junction tiles, so it may actually work perfectly fine.
14:31<nielsm>seems to go fine if I remove the tile right after tunnel exit, while the bus is in tunnel
14:32<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh approved pull request #7261: Add: Road vehicle path cache. https://git.io/fhhGH
14:36<Samu>255 cargo
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14:47<Samu>got a real test case here nielsm
14:47<Samu>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pmteddvst
14:48<Samu>does seem to do what you ask
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15:01<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #7345: Fix 13962a847, 00d28a500: forgotten squirrel_export run https://git.io/fhhZl
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15:10<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh approved pull request #7345: Fix 13962a847, 00d28a500: forgotten squirrel_export run https://git.io/fhhZi
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not entirely sure if i broke it https://ibin.co/4ZW5hgTCszGk.png
15:11<nielsm>scribbles
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15:15<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #7345: Fix 13962a847, 00d28a500: forgotten squirrel_export run https://git.io/fhhZl
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>now it's getting silly https://ibin.co/4ZW75r94IuHb.png
15:15<nielsm>lol
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>and somehow my river widening works only in one diagdir, and not the other
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>i need to play with this a bit more to understand what happens
15:19<andythenorth>it's certainly interesting
15:36<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #7346: Fix: rebase to 1.9 branch for backport PRs https://git.io/fhhnO
15:37<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7346: Fix: rebase to 1.9 branch for backport PRs https://git.io/fhhn3
15:39<nielsm>andythenorth: why does Horse not have a nuclear steam-electric locomotive?
15:39<+glx>pff commit checker fails
15:39<+glx>and I can't fix that
15:39<+glx>ERROR: This commit is not on top of master
15:39<andythenorth>nielsm: what effect sprite would it use?
15:40<andythenorth>green glow?
15:40<andythenorth>steam?
15:40<nielsm>steam effects
15:40<andythenorth>green glowing steam?
15:40<nielsm>just to placate the silly players who insist on using steam locos forever
15:40<nielsm>(becauyse of aethetics)
15:40<andythenorth>they need daylength!!!!!
15:40<andythenorth>time freeze
15:40<LordAro>glx: ha
15:41<+glx>that's in another repo
15:41<+glx>and docker image
15:44<+glx>will open an issue on the CF
15:46<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/CompileFarm] glx22 opened issue #29: Commit checker always expect origin/master, even for non master PRs https://git.io/fhhn4
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17:00<Samu>now with percentages https://paste.openttdcoop.org/poiwaptgz
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17:31<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stale[bot] commented on issue #7016: New variables for railtype https://git.io/fhhCR
17:31<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stale[bot] commented on issue #6993: Enhancements: Allow the scenario (.scn) to run by using the parameter in the openttd.cfg file. https://git.io/fhhC0
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18:00<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] eekee opened issue #7347: Save overwrite confirmation doesn't respond to enter key https://git.io/fhhC9
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18:10<@peter1138>I mean, should it?
18:11<Samu>is there a way to not raise station rating if nothing is moved into a vehicle?
18:13<Samu>i got a vehicle with 885 days waiting in the station
18:13<Samu>it lets it stockpile cargo at the station
18:14<Samu>and the rating only goes down below 50% past 2000 or so it seems
18:14<Samu>actually, I don't quite get how the ratings are calculated here
18:17<Samu>before 2000 cargo waiting, rating is 51%
18:17<Samu>past 2000 to 3000, rating is 37%
18:17<Samu>past 3000, rating lowers to 15%, cargo at station is lost all the way down to 1500, where the ratings restarts going up to 51%
18:18<Samu>meh, makes little sense
18:18<Samu>better give up
18:26<Samu>so apparently now the amount that is delivered to the best station is dependant on the rating of every stations around
18:27<Samu>and the total amount to distribute is dependant on the rating of the best station
18:30<Samu>i'm still slightly confused
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18:52<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN merged pull request #7261: Add: Road vehicle path cache. https://git.io/fhFw4
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18:56<Samu>nielsm, the ratings of the nearby stations has a more direct impact on the amount that is delivered to the best rated station, it's interesting.
18:56*peter1138 dances the rebase dance.
18:57<@peter1138>Whilst drinking a whole bottle of whisky.
18:59<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN updated pull request #6811: Feature: Add NotRoadTypes (NRT) https://git.io/vhlfg
19:02<@peter1138>I guess andy didn't want to fix his PR :(
19:04*nnyby drinks a brooklyn lager
19:05<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh approved pull request #7306: Add: Chrono based TIC() and TOC() in debug https://git.io/fhhWH
19:05<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #7306: Add: Chrono based TIC() and TOC() in debug https://git.io/fhA6p
19:06*nielsm sips a bit of limoncello
19:06<Samu>best station was receiving 6 coal periodically, maintaining the same ratio
19:06<Samu>erm, rating*
19:06<Samu>67%
19:06<@peter1138>const char _openttd_revision[] = "r2234M";
19:06<@peter1138>Hmm, that's a fairly old version
19:06<Samu>the other station had a low rating of 30% percent, was receiving 1 coal periodically, but it started raising
19:07<Samu>over time the best station started to receive less
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19:07<Samu>5 coal
19:07<Samu>as the other increases rating
19:07<Samu>is this intended?
19:08<Samu>I suppose it is, I'm a bit rusty in maths
19:09<nielsm>Samu: That was difficult to understand what you mean
19:09<Samu>the way I had it, if I recall, the rating of the nearby stations would not impact the amount delivered to the best station
19:09<Samu>until it was surpassed
19:10<Samu>best station: 67% rating, 6 coal per period
19:10<Samu>other station: 30% rating, 1 coal per period
19:11<Samu>other station puts a vehicle full loading, rating increases slowly
19:11<Samu>best station maintains a stable 67% rating
19:11<Samu>however, 6 coal is reduced to 5 coal at some point, when rating of the 2nd station gets to... i dunno 50%
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: nah, still same century :p
19:15<nielsm>it's difficult to hit the right distribution ratio when the number of discrete items to distribute is low, as it typically is with any cargo production
19:16<nielsm>you can try to smooth other the difference by keeping some kind of counter for how much was distributed to each recipient, but when the parameters controlling the distribution change all the time you need to also limit how far back the counter goes
19:17<nielsm>and it becomes a really difficult puzzle to make it look any kind of fair
19:17<nielsm>that may also be part of the reason the original algorithm only considers at most two stations: to avoid too much unfairness by rounding of very few items of cargo
19:18<Samu>the amounts are multiplied by 255
19:18<Samu>fractored into a byte
19:19<Samu>fractured*
19:19<nielsm>you still can't distribute two-thirds of a unit of goods to a station
19:20<Samu>there is a remainder
19:20<Samu>it's... amount_fract
19:20<Samu>Fractional part of the amount in the cargo list
19:22<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #7245: Remove: OPF https://git.io/fhhlf
19:24<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7245: Remove: OPF https://git.io/fhhlI
19:25<@peter1138>./oldhome/petern/.openttd-old/data/metro/sprites/metro.nfo
19:25<@peter1138>That looks like a likely railtype grf :D
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19:30<Eddi|zuHause>lots of "old"
19:30<Eddi|zuHause>beware of https://xkcd.com/1360/
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19:35<Samu>gonna investigate what it was like before
19:41<Samu>oh, I was wrong
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19:42<Samu>5 (70%), 6 (83%)
19:42<Samu>2 (18%), 9 (83%)
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19:45<Samu>with nielsm: 4 (70%), 7 (83%)
19:46<Samu>with nielsm: 1 (18%), 10 (83%)
19:46<Samu>averages
19:49<Samu>why was I wrong?
19:50<Samu>I used to be good at math, why am I so tragic now
19:54<Samu>coal mine produced 12 coal
19:54<Beerbelott>Are PR good for tiny changes? Or is it better to keep a commit in one's own GitHub fork and ask you to take it from there as part of bigger modifications sets?
19:54<@peter1138>PR is the only way.
19:54<Beerbelott>Yup, but PR for single liners feels wrong somehow
19:54<@peter1138>Even the original core developers have to use PRs.
19:54<Beerbelott>Wilco then
19:54<@peter1138>It's not wrong.
19:54<Beerbelott>noted
19:55<Samu>@calc 12 * (210 + 1)
19:55<@DorpsGek>Samu: 2532
19:55<Samu>@calc 2532 / 255
19:55<@DorpsGek>Samu: 9.92941176471
19:55<Samu>erm nop
19:56<Samu>@calc 12 * (255 + 1)
19:56<@DorpsGek>Samu: 3072
19:56<Samu>@calc 2532 / (255 + 1)
19:56<@DorpsGek>Samu: 9.890625
19:57<Samu>whatever, so there is 2532 fractional coal amount to distribute between stations
19:58<Samu>worst station got 18% rating or 48
20:00<@peter1138>Urgh, this devzone stuff doesn't build :s
20:00<Samu>@calc 2532 * 48 * 48 / (48 * 48 + 210 * 210)
20:00<@DorpsGek>Samu: 125.71605896
20:01<Samu>@calc 2532 - 125.71605896
20:01<@DorpsGek>Samu: 2406.283941
20:04<Samu>@calc 2532 * 48 / (48 + 210)
20:04<@DorpsGek>Samu: 471.069767442
20:04<Samu>@calc 2532 - 471.069767442
20:04<@DorpsGek>Samu: 2060.930233
20:13<Samu>hmm I don't know if I like nielsm suggestion after all
20:13<Samu>it's also changing the default behaviour for 2 stations
20:25<Samu>in short, nielsm's approach actually benefits more the best rating station than my approach, than in the one in master
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20:26<Samu>my approach does the same as master for 2 stations
20:27<Samu>but the more stations there are, the less the best rating station gets
20:27<Samu>less that nielsm's that is
20:27<Samu>I don't know, I'm undecided
20:29<Samu>less than*
20:33<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7184: Feature: Distribute cargo to multiple stations or industries https://git.io/fh9lr
20:35<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #7184: Feature: Distribute cargo to multiple stations or industries https://git.io/fhh8c
20:36<Samu>ow... conflicts
20:41<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Berbe opened pull request #7348: Fix: BaseMedia<Tbase_set>::AddFile searches for fullpaths instead of files https://git.io/fhh88
21:04<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7184: Feature: Distribute cargo to multiple stations or industries https://git.io/fh9lr
21:04<Samu>DeliverGoodsToIndustry is changed all the time
21:11<@peter1138>Urgh, I need to modify nmlc to make this test work :(
21:17<Samu>i need more tests
21:17<Samu>i have 3 test cases
21:17<Samu>wonder if i can open visual studio 3 times
21:18<Eddi|zuHause>which part?
21:18<@peter1138>/bin/sh: 1: Syntax error: "(" unexpected
21:18<@peter1138>Hmm, I wonder where that is :p
21:19<Eddi|zuHause>at 1: obviously :p
21:19<Samu>stupid visual studio
21:19<Samu>i changed branch in one, and the other followed
21:20<+glx>I like the CMake style, ")" expected at <last line of the file>
21:20<Samu>I want to work with different branches at the same time
21:21<+glx>it's not visual studio's fault
21:21<@peter1138>`which unix2dos 2>/dev/null`
21:21<@peter1138>fails on my system
21:21<@peter1138>cos unix2dos outputs to stdout, not stderr.
21:21<+glx>you need to commit or stash before switching branches
21:22<Samu>no, it's not that
21:22<Eddi|zuHause>you can have two working copies...
21:22<Samu>I want to run 3 different builds at the same time
21:22<@peter1138>You need 3 copies of the repo.
21:22<Samu>master, my branch, and my other branch
21:23<Samu>oh really? :(
21:23<@peter1138>Obviously. You can only be on one branch at a time.
21:23<Samu>that kinda sucks
21:24<Samu>duplicates of duplicates
21:24<+glx>it was the same with svn
21:24<Samu>wow 6,20 GB?
21:25<Samu>lol, i better clone from web
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21:27<+glx>peter1138: I made a PR for one of your branches
21:28<Samu>I just cloned my clone, cool stuff
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21:37<Samu>I finally have a reason to get a better cpu
21:37<Samu>building 3 openttds at the same time
21:44<@peter1138>Shit, I got X & Y wrong :(
21:51<Eddi|zuHause>there's no XX and XY, it's all just social construct.
21:53<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN merged pull request #7231: Add: Add flag and railtype sprite type to draw pre-combined ground sprites. https://git.io/fh71z
21:55<@peter1138>glx, yup, I saw, thanks.
21:56<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/nml] PeterN opened pull request #22: Add: New railtype flags and precombined spriteset type. https://git.io/fhh4q
21:59<Samu>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pnp04lwfn 2 stations only
22:02<Samu>and thus is confirmed, mine mimics master when there's only 2 stations
22:04<Samu>now i need to test more stations
22:04<Samu>3
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22:25<Samu>3 stations: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/po46thby7
22:29<Samu>too confusing to follow
22:36<Samu>Samu: 642 (47%) / 991 (72%) / 1136 (83%)
22:36<Samu>nielsm: 426 (47%) / 1012 (72%) / 1331 (83%)
22:36<Samu>Master: 0 (47%) / 1290 (72%) / 1479 (83%)
22:37<Samu>resumed ^^
22:38<Samu>those values are the fractional amounts
22:39<Samu>aka multiplied by 256
22:39<Samu>which approach is better?
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---Logclosed Sat Mar 09 00:00:04 2019