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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-03-14

---Logopened Thu Mar 14 00:00:11 2019
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04:31<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #6266: UI Zoom: ugly lists in network windows on double/quad interface sizes with custom fonts
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04:58<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7165: [core] Implement SmallVector using std::vector
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06:19<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on issue #7371: Kdtree is built too early in savegame loading process
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07:51<@peter1138>planetmaker, you're a graphics forum moderator, right?
07:51<@peter1138>Ah yes.
07:52<planetmaker>I can moderate in any
07:52<@peter1138>planetmaker, could you perhaps split off from the original thread?
07:52<planetmaker>basically global mod
07:52<planetmaker>I just like OpenTTD colour better :P
07:52<@peter1138>I'm 'just' an OpenTTD mod :)
07:53<planetmaker>you mean like to OpenTTD as in "railtype selection GUI"?
07:54<@peter1138>Hmm, good point, not sure where it should go. Graphics Development maybe?
07:54<planetmaker>I don't care much... ok
07:55<@peter1138>I posted the original image to encourage the author to actually draw these icons :)
07:55<@peter1138>So graphics dev works well I think, rather than openttd.
07:56<planetmaker>I'll leave your first posting attached to the original as it's relevant there. It's quoted by the first one split
07:56<planetmaker>so it's essentially in both
07:56<@peter1138>Great, thanks :D
07:57<planetmaker>you're welcome
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08:51<Criador15>hello o/
08:52<Criador15>first time here, i have a question but dont want to make a post about
08:52<planetmaker>both is fine
08:52<Criador15>some of you ever had the idea of a factory on OPENTTD that make the train you use to transport?
08:53<planetmaker>:) I might have heard of that idea vaguely long time ago.
08:53<Criador15>know something about?
08:54<planetmaker>It is something which is very hard to achieve with OpenTTD as-is as industries and vehicles are currently not tied at all
08:54<Criador15>i dont understand the (not tied) part
08:54<planetmaker>coneceptually they don't talk to eachother. Maybe one can come up with some way by means of game scripts though and achieve something like that
08:55<planetmaker>tied. related. connected. In that sense
08:55<Criador15>now i understand
08:55<Criador15>you are one of the people of know how to develop?
08:56<planetmaker>All I know about programming is what I taught myself in my own free time
08:57<Criador15>this was global or just i see it?
08:58<@peter1138>Just you :)
08:58<Criador15>oh good
08:58<planetmaker>anyone can query that, but that is only you
08:59<Criador15>so in your experience, did you know about the method that the depot use to 'input' train when the user click buy train?
08:59<Criador15>lemme say better
08:59<Criador15>if you know about this method, a factory can use it?
09:00<planetmaker>No, factories and trains have no means to communicate
09:00<planetmaker>So you either need to go and look at how to make a game script for OpenTTD. You might pull-off something which does that approximately with a game script for OpenTTD
09:01<planetmaker>Or you need to actually modify OpenTTD itself
09:01<Criador15>the best way is the second
09:01<planetmaker>Game scripts can read both, what happens to a factory. And they can create, delete or otherwise manipulate vehicles
09:02<planetmaker>But I know of no game scripts which actually does something like this. But I only know very few game scripts
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09:02<planetmaker>(game scripts are an add-on type to OpenTTD)... meh
09:03<planetmaker>the best way would be game script :P
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09:06<@peter1138>I don't think GameScripts can do anything with vehicles? AIs can, of course.
09:06<Criador15>ok, thanks for the information
09:06<Criador15>i will try at least :D
09:06<planetmaker>peter1138, they can do everything an AI can. And more. Even in your name they can
09:07<planetmaker>they can switch company-context
09:07<@peter1138>Ah right, so they can change context.
09:07<Criador15>i dont know, but think they can even change the profile photo
09:08<planetmaker>yes, I think so, too
09:08<@peter1138>I had some weird idea about that the other... uploading an actual image.
09:08<@peter1138>Then I realised... dicks.
09:12<Criador15>just to knowing
09:12<Criador15>"'Gamescripts' can modify the way towns behave, delete objects, place new in-game industries, and town buildings, as well as inquire about the state of the game, and do several other in-game actions. "
09:13<planetmaker> are the API docs
09:15<Criador15>i am alread here
09:16<Criador15>there not is a class in GameScript to make new trains
09:17<planetmaker> in particular
09:18<Criador15>tthis is the method i say early
09:18<Criador15> static VehicleID GSVehicle::BuildVehicle ( TileIndex depot, EngineID engine_id )
09:19<planetmaker>so.. It can do exactly that: build a vehicle in a depot
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09:20<Criador15>yeah, in c++ exist inheritance?
09:21<@peter1138>Yes but the GS are written in Squirrel.
09:21<planetmaker>but that knows inheritance, too
09:22<Criador15>just thinking but, if the factory class, extends the vehicles class, the factory will can run on rails and roads AND built vehicles?
09:22<Criador15>and will be a mess
09:24<planetmaker>I don't see how that helps with the suggestion to have supplied factories build vehicles
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09:26<Criador15>override some factory with the extended version, when its loads, it calls the build vehicle method instead of the fill station
09:26<@peter1138>Yeah, that's not how our inheritance works.
09:27<@peter1138>That's a very simplistic view that doesn't work in reality.
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>that's like when two architects designed a building each, and then some random dude with no experience says "how about we put one building on top of the other?"
09:28<Criador15>thats me o/
09:29<Criador15>its like i dont have the will of make the entire game again just to make industries build trains
09:29<planetmaker>And I'm telling you: try the game script way. Start with a simple script which gives you a train at a certain date
09:29<@peter1138>Yeah, that's not how it works either :P
09:29<planetmaker>then try a script which says hello when you service a certain industry
09:30<planetmaker>then combine the two things, and have it give you a vehicle when you service that industry
09:30<planetmaker>then make it more complicated and only have it give you the vehicle when you delivered a certain amount of combination of cargoes to the industry
09:30<planetmaker>That's how I'd tackle it, were I to write a GS
09:31<Criador15>give you mean (now you can buy this type of train) or take that train in that specific depot?
09:31<planetmaker>put that train into a depot
09:32<planetmaker>you cannot change vehicle introduction dates and properties
09:33<planetmaker>if you want anyone forbid buying the vehicle, simply always stop the vehicle and sell it, should the player buy it. Or intercept where players click - you have access to the GUI, too
09:33<@peter1138>"intercept where players click" I'm... pretty sure that is not a thing.
09:34<Criador15>it is
09:34<Criador15>detect mouse click{
09:34<planetmaker>it was introduced so that we can make a tutorial script
09:35<Criador15>trunk is what?
09:35<planetmaker>it is needed to know where players click for that purpose. So...
09:35<planetmaker>trunk = current development version
09:35<planetmaker>but 1.8.0 is about the same. And so is 1.9…0-rc1
09:35<planetmaker>in terms of GS
09:35<@peter1138>Ok. That'll work if the widget is highlighted.
09:36<@peter1138>Not going to work in network games...
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09:44<Criador15>where i download NoGo?
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>NoGo is not a download
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>it's the script api that is already built into the game
09:45<planetmaker>OpenTTD supports scripts. These scripts can make use of the functions and methods described in the API documentation
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09:51<planetmaker>oh, we get now different track types which will mainly differ in the look of the tunnel entrances...
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09:52<Criador15>network problems, did you know where i find the API?
09:52<Criador15>forget, found it
09:55<Criador15>ok, lemme do a search
09:55<Criador15>and thanks for the log
09:58<Criador15>until later dudes o/ (and i will someday put one of the building on top of the other and call it a new thing and laugh)
09:59<planetmaker>one can call it art when doing stupid stuff, when done with enough determination
10:00<Criador15>thats how art works
10:00<planetmaker>dunno how to properly translate... "Ist das Kunst oder kann das weg?" :P
10:00<planetmaker>is it art or can it be dumped?
10:01<Criador15>art is to be see, tools are art that do something useful
10:02<Criador15>like a chainsaw
10:03<Criador15>you sure know about art and tools
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11:13<criador15>hello o/
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11:21<criador15>i am a bit curious about AI Making, so my openttd dont understand my to files as a AI, what can i do to debug this?(know why it dont recon)
11:24<nielsm>there's lots of things that could be wrong, and some of it might also depend on what version of OTTD you're testing with
11:25<nielsm>hmm, I think the bug with BOM in reading squirrel files was only if the files were in TAR archives, and when you're developing that's probably not the case so let's ignore that possibility :)
11:26<nielsm>what folder are you putting your files in?
11:26<criador15>path is like :OpenTTD\ai\TrainsMaker
11:26<nielsm>sounds fine
11:27<criador15>tried both here and in content download folder
11:27<nielsm>are the files named .nut (and not something like .nut.txt)
11:27<criador15>none of then
11:27<nielsm>and you have a main.nut file?
11:27<criador15>the encoding change somethind?(yes i have)
11:28<criador15>ANSI from UTF-8, or something else?
11:28<nielsm>preferably UTF-8
11:28<criador15>will try
11:28<nielsm>but the worst that could happen if you use the wrong is that text might show up wrong in the game, not total malfunction
11:29<nielsm>(as far as I know)
11:29<criador15>i think is not it
11:30<criador15>i made this :
11:30<nielsm>you also have the info.nut file, and it contains a class TrainsMaker extends AIInfo ?
11:30<criador15>and the game dont find the AI in the folder
11:30<planetmaker>keep clear of the content_download folder. That's for ... download :) Manual stuff is in the identically-named folders at the same level as content_download
11:31<planetmaker>and... you might need to change the 4-letter identifier to something else than given in the example
11:31<criador15>content_download only have the standart library folder
11:31<criador15>TsM works?
11:32<criador15> function GetShortName() { return "TsM"; }
11:32<planetmaker> <-- I used to know the line number by heart :D
11:32<nielsm>it needs to be 4 letters exactly
11:32<planetmaker>4 letters exact
11:32<criador15>sure, changing
11:33<criador15>i am not of USA contry, and the acronym TsMa is offensive?
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11:34<criador15>stil dont works
11:34<planetmaker>"doesn't work" is pretty vague. Doesn't it find it? Does it throw an error (which?)...
11:35<planetmaker>did you activate it?
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11:40<criador15>yes, when i try to select it in the AI/GameScript tab the game dont find it, and dont give me any options besides the standart
11:41<criador15>yes, when i try to select it in the AI/GameScript tab the game dont find it, and dont give me any options besides the standart
11:41<planetmaker>did you restart openttd or at least re-scan for new content?
11:41<criador15>yes, exit and open a new one
11:43<criador15>yes, exit and open a new one
11:46<criador15>i open the game, its checks for new GRFs, when load i click on AI/GameScript tab, choose 1 oponent, click to insert a Random AI, but it dont list any new AIs
11:47<criador15>and show a red warning message saying that i dont have compatibles AIs
11:47<nielsm>can you share your entire info.nut and main.nut on (or similar)?
11:48<criador15>need to sign in?
11:48<nielsm>hmm you normally shouldn't, I think
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11:50<planetmaker> definitely needs no sign-in
11:51<criador15> this works?
11:51<criador15>ok, done it
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11:54<criador15>did it right?
11:55<nielsm>I can see it :)
11:55<criador15>so i did the AI right?
11:57<nielsm>you're missing a line at the end of info.nut
11:58<nielsm>yes that
11:58<nielsm>it works for me after I add that
12:00<criador15>me too
12:00<@peter1138>Congrats, your first AI/GS :D
12:00<planetmaker>yay :)
12:01<criador15>YAY \o/
12:01<criador15>but no
12:01<criador15>my first AI on OpenTTd
12:01<criador15>and its prints :)
12:01<planetmaker>I should at some stage make a crazy GS just to annoy people :P
12:01<criador15>make better
12:02<criador15>a awesome AI that makes the trains crazy and start to colide when you gain a specific amount of money
12:02<criador15>a awesome means(its works very fine, and after thats its goes bad)
12:03<andythenorth>GS is fail :(
12:03*andythenorth makes silly statements
12:03<andythenorth>but eh 34 GS
12:03<planetmaker>GS is quite popular
12:03<andythenorth>669 Newgrfs
12:04<criador15>mod would be better
12:04<planetmaker>for servers
12:04<andythenorth>I use GS in every game
12:04<andythenorth>but it has failed to produce a GS-oriented modding culture
12:04<planetmaker>I have one activated, too, by default. Like giving additional goals / subsidies
12:04<andythenorth>so it's fail as a content project
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12:05<andythenorth>lo Alberth
12:05<planetmaker>I think you and alberth wrote that GS, andythenorth ;)
12:05<criador15>moin is some type of hello but from another language?
12:05<andythenorth>I did work on some GS with Alberth, but it's really programming at a level above what I can do
12:05<planetmaker>it is
12:05<andythenorth>it's from Friesian or something?
12:05<planetmaker>Dutch / Frisian / Northern German
12:05<criador15>andythenorth you know c++?
12:06<criador15>so above is up or down?
12:06<andythenorth>GS requires too much programming awareness to get results quickly
12:06<criador15>aw yes
12:06<@Alberth>what am I supposed to have written planetmaker ?
12:06<@Alberth>ah, yep, we did
12:06<planetmaker>Alberth, some goal / subsidy game script for openttd
12:07<criador15>like realy develop a town
12:07<planetmaker>I quite like it
12:07<@Alberth>so you haven't played BB yet planetmaker?
12:07<planetmaker>I have
12:07<criador15>instead to try to load coal on a city and fails because there is no coal plant
12:07<planetmaker>I just said before you joined "it somehow ended up in my default config"
12:07<@Alberth>mine too :)
12:08<criador15>okay, so
12:08<planetmaker>unobtrusive, but nice guidance when unsure what to do :)
12:08<@Alberth>nicely non-intrusive, and it gives you something to do if bored
12:08<criador15>BB is a acronym for what?
12:08<criador15>or is not?
12:08<planetmaker>BusyBee game script
12:09<criador15>i am a curious person
12:09<@Alberth>for all the busy bees that must transport
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12:09<@Alberth>it gives random transport assignments
12:10<criador15>Alberth and andythenorth only made it?
12:10<andythenorth>I can't remember why I got stuck with Busy Bee
12:10<andythenorth>iirc there's too much state to manage
12:10<@Alberth>I wrote most if not all code :)
12:10<planetmaker>with complicated stuff there's A LOT of state to manage for scripts, I think
12:10<andythenorth>there's the stuff about limits per tick, but I didn't run into that
12:11<andythenorth>it was the initial state, and the saveload stuff
12:11<andythenorth>it's quite a lot of programming overhead
12:11<planetmaker>Alberth, if I'm not mistaken, stable.o.o server running 1.9.0-rc1 has it enabled
12:11<@Alberth>andy provided ideas and feedback
12:11<criador15>if someday i made what i thing, you two can try to use it?
12:11<criador15>1.9.0 test edition is disponible
12:11<criador15>for tes (dull!)
12:12<@Alberth>not much of a fan for baby-sitting a town tbh
12:12<nielsm>it would be nice if there was a way to completely "freeze" and take image of a squirrel VM
12:12<@Alberth>did you try silicon valley?
12:12<nielsm>and just restore the complete state again later
12:12<criador15>in C maybe you can do it
12:12<nielsm>instead of the script having to manage saving state itself
12:13<@Alberth>it's questionable how much you should save, probably, especially for an AI
12:13<planetmaker>hm, no, another game on the server now. not from me
12:13<criador15>save what?
12:13<andythenorth>when I work with state in a web, the DB connection takes care of the actual state
12:13<andythenorth>I just send / receive objects
12:14<andythenorth>and I get transaction success or fail
12:14<@Alberth>criador15: information that you need when the game is loaded again
12:15<andythenorth>not sure why I found save stuff hard tbh
12:15<criador15>OTTD uses which internal DB?
12:15*andythenorth explores BB
12:15<andythenorth>oh yeah, have to do stuff like walking companies saving each goal
12:15<andythenorth>can't just dump all GS state
12:16<andythenorth>it's not rocket science hard
12:16<planetmaker>but sounds tedious
12:16<andythenorth>but it's not the kind of programming I'm good at :P
12:16<criador15>sounds fun
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12:17<criador15>there is much to ask and little time
12:17<@Alberth>andy, you can also make a smart data structure, that has a "save" entry point, and can also be accessed for normal play
12:18<@Alberth>just ask criador15, one question at a time :)
12:18<@Alberth>mostly if you'd get all answers at the same time, you'd drown in the information anyway
12:19<criador15>i would sugest you make a list with all possible objectives, and make the game iterates over then one by one, and when you finish, its restart the list,but mutiply the amount need, and put a limitation
12:19<criador15>because have to transport 300M of coal its not cool
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12:21<criador15>so, 1) how you made the list of objectives?
12:22<@Alberth>I don't, when I need a new goal, I randomly pick a town or factory and another town or factory, check some limits, and if all is fine, generate an amount, and that's it
12:23<criador15>tried to make progression?
12:23<@peter1138>nielsm, pretty sure it must be possible.
12:23<@Alberth>same list with even more transport is boring, as the player has a route with trains after the first assignment
12:23<@peter1138>16:15 < criador15> OTTD uses which internal DB?
12:23<planetmaker>criador15, the answer to that question is the in essence one of "what do I want?". And that may very well be VERY different for different people
12:23<@peter1138>criador15, there is no internal DB.
12:23<@Alberth>so, doing the second assignment doesn't need any action
12:24<planetmaker>Alberth, "clone, clone, clone" :P
12:24<planetmaker>(assuming 3x the 1st year's quantity or such)
12:24<criador15>the need is the same, but the location to transport not
12:24<nielsm>peter1138, as it is, the squrrel 2 implementation does not have a mechanism to separate allocations from different VMs
12:25<criador15>like found a city, then suplly
12:25<criador15>after connect it to another and make it grown
12:25<nielsm>I tried to have it use separate arenas for each AI/GS running but decided it would be too much uprooting the entire VM structure
12:25<planetmaker>nielsm, I think TB once looked into updating the VMs. Looked... like boring and tedious work
12:25<planetmaker>or was that you?
12:26<nielsm>I did try some months ago
12:26<nielsm>mainly for measuring memory usage for each script
12:26<criador15>how i send the red message?
12:27<@Alberth>what red message?
12:28<andythenorth>we spent quite a lot of time at work on python wrappers for common attributes, that can serialise / deserialise cleanly
12:28<criador15>the red looks like private but in the same tab
12:28<andythenorth>which makes state management trivial
12:28<@Alberth>we have red messages?
12:29<@Alberth>or just text in red colour or so?
12:29<@Alberth>strings can have colour, including red
12:30<criador15>like that message : <@Alberth> just ask criador15, one question at a time :)
12:31<criador15>the name was red
12:31<@peter1138>Oh that's your IRC client doing that.
12:31<planetmaker>we have a red message box with white or yellow text
12:31<planetmaker>like the error message of newgrf mess-up
12:32<@Alberth>I mentioned your name, so your client highlights you, just like mine if you mention my name
12:32<criador15>the 'list' of objetives might be very vast, like found citys, transport to multi towns, supply anothers, supplys factory
12:33<criador15>and like i am trying to do
12:33<criador15>much more
12:34<@Alberth>why do you have a long list? The user cannot do 1000 things at the same time
12:34<@peter1138>Is it safe to listen to Kate Bush yet?
12:34<@peter1138>There was that palaver about her being a Tory...
12:35<@Alberth>I tried in the '90s or so, and survived. Does that count?
12:35<@peter1138>Actually there is one album that has Rolf Harris on it. That's slightly more problematic...
12:35<@peter1138>I think she's remastered that one to fix that.
12:36<@Alberth>Oh you actually know stuff, I never got that far
12:39<criador15>list of possible goals to add to the list that the player has of goals
12:39<criador15>a list not of goals, but possible goals, or progressive goals
12:40<criador15>or goals needed to achieve a certain amount of money, or supply from a factory
12:40<@Alberth>yeah, so 2048x2048 map, 1300-something towns and industries
12:41<criador15>and you suggest to supply each of then, one by one
12:41<criador15>after x000 hour you make it
12:41<criador15>or maybe x0.000.000 hours
12:41<@Alberth>you generate them all at the start, I generate the next one when I need it
12:41<@Alberth>but start much smaller
12:42<criador15>i dont make anything yet
12:42<@Alberth>first, just pick two towns, and ask the player to setup a passenger service
12:42<criador15>i will try to make a industry craft a train to me
12:42<@Alberth>monitor progress, and declare done when appropriate
12:43<planetmaker>criador15, so your next GS will ask the player to service a particular industry :)
12:43<criador15>when is done, you dont receive money
12:43<@Alberth>that sets up the whole infra structure for managing goals for the player
12:43<criador15>receive a vehicle
12:43<criador15>or another industry
12:43<criador15>like a franchise
12:44<planetmaker>you probably will have to do that manually: remove money earned, give money for buying vehicle, buy vehicle
12:44<planetmaker>and ecommunicate it as "you got the vehicle, but not the money"
12:44<criador15>or maybe both
12:44<criador15>the game is to transport,
12:45<criador15>you encommend, transport the resource, pay and use
12:45<@Alberth>you can't build all that in one time, way too big and complicated. Start small, and gradually expand
12:45<criador15>i have time o/, not will force
12:45<@Alberth>dreaming of solutions is simple, implementing them is a lot of work
12:46<@Alberth>it's not time, it's complexity of handling it all
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12:46<planetmaker>but a vision or goal keeps you motivated :)
12:46<@Alberth>sure, vision is great
12:47<criador15>thats why i think busybee is very promising
12:47<@Alberth>just warning that realizing is much more complicated than you may think
12:47<criador15>i know it
12:48<@Alberth>well, BB is gpl-licensed, if you can live by those rules, feel free to fork it and extend
12:49<criador15>for now, i have another goal
12:49<criador15>but later, and if i suceed
12:49<criador15>you can at least see if its useful the idea of the industries craft a vehicle?
12:50<@Alberth>oh, could be fun
12:51<planetmaker>I'm also sure such GS will have its audience
12:51<planetmaker>(or ludience?)
12:51<criador15>what the diference?
12:51<planetmaker>audire = to hear; ludere = to play
12:51<planetmaker>(latin) :P
12:52<criador15>i barely understand you in english
12:52<criador15>take eay
12:52<@Alberth>right, never saw that before, but I haven't studied latin
12:52<planetmaker>I just made it up on the spot
12:52<criador15>you made a joke, right?
12:52<planetmaker>except the verbs actually exist
12:52<planetmaker>yes... and failed hard :D
12:53<criador15>pun are hard when you mix more than one language
12:53<criador15>for me, you used 3
12:54<criador15>Alberth o/, to make a goal, i place it in main.nut, with the especific params?
12:54<criador15>have to use pointers?
12:54<@peter1138>Ah, Kate Bush's famous song about... washing machines.
12:55<@Alberth>my goal creation code ended up in main, but that's not a fixed rule, you can have it in any .nut file
12:55<@Alberth>squirrel has no pointers, it has references
12:56<criador15>TrainsMaker::Start() the :: is what?
12:56<@Alberth>hmm, not entirely true, it also knows about null
12:56<@Alberth>two colons :p
12:56<@Alberth>used to denote that Start is a method in the TrainsMaker class
12:57<@Alberth>you have read a squirrel 2 document, right
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12:58<planetmaker>a flaky connection surely is flaky
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13:10<@Alberth>first some food is required
13:11<planetmaker>indeed. And then some people need explaining what they could see on the sky if it were not raining cats and dogs...
13:11<planetmaker>l8r :)
13:11<@Alberth>have fun :)
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13:29<criador15>'a flaky connection surely is flaky' mostly know as lunch here
13:29<criador15>hey o/
13:29<criador15>Alberth not, i not read it yet
13:29<criador15>working on it
13:34<criador15>squirrels has pointers, but they are not the same like others non C language
13:37<criador15>Alberth, do you have time to explaim me some things?
13:39<criador15>the := do something in squirrel?
13:40<@Alberth>looks like assignment, doesn't the manual explain that?
13:42<criador15>yes and no
13:43<criador15>i know this is for assign value to local vars =, but this := is for assign to global vars(like the off class)
13:43<@Alberth>where do you find that := ?
13:43<criador15>in the doc
13:44<@Alberth>stat:= 'throw' exp <- like that ?
13:44<nielsm>oh, in the syntax definitions
13:44<criador15>"Global variables are stored in a table called the root table. Usually in the global scope the environment object is the root table, but to explicitly access the global table from another scope, the slot name must be prefixed with '::' (::foo)."
13:44<nielsm>read up on "backus-naur form"
13:44<@Alberth>that's ::
13:45<criador15>A single identifier refers to a local variable or a slot in the environment object. derefexp := id;
13:45<@Alberth>and likely hardly ever needed
13:45<@Alberth>It's meta-syntax
13:46<@Alberth>it's of the language they use for defining squirrel, it's not squirrel itself
13:46<criador15>its from C and sons right?
13:46<criador15>maybe 'sons'
13:46<@Alberth>the explanation has a concept "derefexp", the := means "is defined as"
13:46<nielsm>well, the formatting in the squrrel manual is terrible, and they don't visually distinguish between examples written in squirrel, and other code blocks that are not squirrel
13:47<@Alberth>Likely you can find similar syntax somewhere in an appendix of a C/C++ manual
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13:47<criador15>just to know, some of you know about java?
13:47<@Alberth>you can safely ignore the := and everything before it
13:48<@Alberth>I know java, also drink a lot of coffee
13:48<criador15>i did it, and after asked you
13:48<@Alberth>hai sir W
13:49<criador15>so this a:=b, is the same as a=b?
13:50<nielsm>there is no := symbol in the squrrel language
13:50<@Alberth>the " a :=" part is explanation, it's not part of squirrel
13:50<nielsm>:= is a symbol the manual uses to explain the syntax
13:50<criador15>now i understand
13:50<@Alberth>you can safely ignore the := and everything before it
13:51<nielsm>for example this:
13:51<nielsm>stat:= 'while' '(' exp ')' stat
13:51<criador15>begins on while
13:51<nielsm>that means that when they write "stat" somewhere else in a syntax diagram, it refers to the sequence of the word "while", following by a (, followed by an expression, followed by a ), followed by a statement
13:52<criador15>so AI is like to develop on squirrel and C++ implicity, but you can use GUI?
13:52<nielsm>uh what
13:52<nielsm>squirrel is a programming language used in ottd to write AI and GS
13:52<@Alberth>you have to create a tekst-file, if you want to use a graphical editor for that , it's fine
13:52<criador15>if i do a calculator inside a AI, and run it, is like compile in squirrel?
13:52<@Alberth>*text-file even
13:53<criador15>but with expensive computing cost
13:53<nielsm>the squirrel language is interpreted by a C++ library which is included in ottd, and the syntax of the squirrel language itself is inspired by C++, but C++ is not relevant for writing squirrel
13:54<@Alberth>tea would be great I think
13:55<criador15>then it would be java
13:55<criador15>would not*
13:55<@Alberth>no, tea in the evening
13:56<criador15>for me its 15:00 or 3:00 pm
13:56<@Alberth>I did have coffee today, even without touching java
13:56<criador15>me too
13:56<nielsm>I shall find food
13:57<@Alberth>survival stuff and all that
13:58<criador15>you are talking about that thing you do to keep doing things?
13:59<criador15>i love openttd
14:04<@Alberth>it has a lot of challenges
14:04<criador15>did i sucessfully send you a private question?
14:05<@peter1138>Don't do that :/
14:05<criador15>please especify, dont do question in private mode, or dont do private question?
14:06<criador15>i mean, did i send a question only to Alberth?
14:07<criador15>the query option do what?
14:08<criador15>here in the chat
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14:23<criador15>where i find the id of towns?
14:24<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] M3Henry commented on pull request #7165: [core] Implement SmallVector using std::vector
14:26<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] M3Henry updated pull request #7165: [core] Implement SmallVector using std::vector
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14:49<@Alberth>moving boxes of steel
14:50<@Alberth>or in your case, moving boxes of bits
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14:51<LordAro>Thedarkb-T60: oi
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15:04-!-mode/#openttd [+o LordAro] by DorpsGek
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15:05<frosch123>@ban 100000 Thedarkb1-T60
15:05<frosch123>@ban Thedarkb1-T60 100000
15:07<@Alberth>one must be right :)
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15:10<criador15>hey o/, anyone can edit the introduction tutorial of AIs?
15:10<criador15>this :
15:10<frosch123>you can
15:12<criador15>you thing is good to mention that AIs only run while the game is not paused?
15:13<nielsm>that should be obvious
15:13<criador15>and hi o/ you are a new person to me
15:13<criador15>for me wasnot
15:13<@peter1138>nielsm, well, players can build while paused, so...
15:13<@peter1138>Which is a bit silly :/
15:14<criador15>30 minutes trying to make a simple String apears, but my games always start paused....
15:14<criador15>Because my game*
15:15<@peter1138>Unpause it :-)
15:15<criador15>now i know
15:17<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] M3Henry updated pull request #7165: [core] Implement SmallVector using std::vector
15:17<m3henry>After much fumbling with rebases, that might be all of the amendments
15:20<criador15>see ya o/
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15:20<@peter1138>People using track types just to have different tunnel sprites? o_O
15:21<@Alberth>although it makes sense I guess, only way to get any variation in those sprites
15:22<@Alberth>hmm, would random sprite selection work?
15:22<@peter1138>No, not really.
15:22<@peter1138>What would be good is to say "can we have different tunnel head sprites"
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15:23<@Alberth>never avoid creating an XY problem if you can :p
15:24<@peter1138>"Variable 10 can be used to distinguish between several requested tunnel variations: "
15:25<@peter1138>00 plain portal
15:25<@peter1138>all over values "reserved"
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>i guess that's a "this was never implemented"?
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>so all that needs is a few map bits and a gui
15:28<@Alberth>I wonder if you should define something for the other values
15:28<@Alberth>perhaps not
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>there's also this TTDP feature where you can build rails on top
15:29<@peter1138>Yeah but TTDP doesn't support railtypes.
15:29<@Alberth>someone will invent a "system" covering all known and unknown tunnel entry sprites
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>would also be helpful with roads, especially for "subway" style train networks
15:30<@peter1138>That's the thing, would you want tunnel sprites to be clearly defined (like have proper IDs)
15:30<@LordAro>i feel like very few people would complain if the TTDP-only bits of the grf spec were dropped
15:31<@peter1138>Or be like refits (depend on a variable and rely on a different graphic coming back to detect it)
15:31<@LordAro>Alberth: YATH (yet another tunnel head) ?
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i'm not sure i understand what you mean
15:32<@Alberth>clearly you need separate tunnels sprites for 100, 120, 160, and 200 km/h entry speeds
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: that's what railtypes can already do
15:32<@peter1138>Only based on the speed limit attribute of the railtype, though.
15:32<@Alberth>not to mention 50, and 125KV, with catenary or 3rd rail
15:33<@peter1138>But yes, railtypes do already specify the tunnel graphics
15:33<@Alberth>and so you arrive at railtypes defining tunnel sprites :p
15:34<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, ottd has to detect what refits are available by testing for all combinations.
15:34<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, this is part of what makings refits so shitty to deal with
15:34<@peter1138>They can come & go depending on date... o_O
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: but station construction can also come and go depending on date?
15:35<@peter1138>How is that relevant?
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>i would imagine tunnel portals would be more like that, than refit
15:35<@peter1138>stations have proper defined IDs
15:35<@peter1138>tunnel portals are graphics for a railtype
15:36<@peter1138>(because the sprites include the rails)
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>say, we find somewhere 4 map bits we could use for tunnel portals (that makes 16 types per railtype), we could make a property/callback where the railtype can enable each single portal in a bitmask
15:38<andythenorth>we need a full on landscape construction kit
15:38<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stale[bot] commented on issue #3848: Orders: different STR_ORDER_GO_TO for each transport type
15:38<andythenorth>it's why frosch123 invented ButGroundTypes
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>the sprite selection callback then gets passed these 4 map bits, the GRF is responsible for providing any graphics that it had enabled and the selection gui could exclude the ones disabled
15:40<andythenorth>for model train purposes, landscape needs to be modular :P
15:40<andythenorth>I'm not even trolling
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>there's some complexity with the graphics to combine tunnel portals with grass/sand/whatever ground
15:41<andythenorth>eh we need turntables!!
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>the bitmask would allow the GRF to enable/disable them at dates, and avoid the mess that is refit subtypes
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>subtypes have a problem with that, because they have to be consecutive
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>allowing non-consecutive has the advantage that the GRF can still provide graphics for the already built but now disabled types
15:43<@peter1138>"but only 16 types!" ;)
15:43<@peter1138>so callback for "which tunnel types are available"
15:43<@peter1138>Do they need names? :p
15:43<@peter1138>I'm going with no.
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: but the callback can only return 15 bits :p
15:46<@Alberth>have 0 always available
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>that doesn't make a lot of sense
15:47<@Alberth>grf can disable all tunnel sprites?
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>would disable tunnel construction for that railtype
15:50<@Alberth>if it's static, that would work
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15:56<@peter1138>Can a callback return 15 bits or was there some 14 bit limit?
15:56<@peter1138>Or was that a bit being used for something else in some var?
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>14 bit was only for the articulation callback, as 15 was special
15:57<@peter1138>Some cost thing too, I'm sure.
15:57<@peter1138>Or rating
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>dunno, but the callback can return all 15 bits
15:58<@peter1138>Ok, let's write the unit tests ;)
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>do we have a framework for those yet? :p
15:58<@peter1138>And... have 15 types, or 16 types with the first one always available?
15:59<@Alberth> <-- that one?
15:59<@peter1138>Probably :-)
15:59<@peter1138>Hmm, there are callbacks for rails, I guess.
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16:00<Eddi|zuHause>i'm against having a fixed one. a GRF might want to have an "old" and a "new" set, so would want to disable all "old" while making sure at least one is available at any time
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>so 15 would be better, can always increase that later
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>the property could support all 16 maybe
16:01<@peter1138>I ... wasn't going to implement a property :p
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>(this still under the assumption we have 4 map bits)
16:01<@peter1138>m2 is free for bridges and thus tunnels
16:01<@peter1138>Don't need 65536 tunnel types though
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>ok. no property, and CB_FAILED indicates old behaviour
16:02<@peter1138>m3 bits 0..3
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>i'm pretty sure m2 is used by every custom bridge head patch ever
16:03<@peter1138>And that patch to assign town ids to bridges.
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds incredibly wasteful
16:04<frosch123>callbacks returning signed integers have these weird 15 bit integers, with 14bit for positive numbers
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>well, it's not like 2-complement is restricted to power-of-two bits
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>the bigger problem there is that the callback itself has no knowledge of its signedness, so the conversion is done in a weird place
16:07<@Alberth>define as unsigned after adding n/2
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>the callback handling code expects all callbacks to be unsigned
16:08<frosch123>oh, right... title game competition
16:08<frosch123>i keep forgetting to look at them
16:09<frosch123>actually... is voting open? there is no separate post about it
16:12<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: no, the callback handling code expects all callbacks to return 15 bit binary data
16:13<frosch123>bit fields are extracted and converted later
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: ok, but bitfields are fine when handled as unsigned
16:21<@peter1138>Hmm, how do we normally do variables that need to be available before the object exists...
16:26<frosch123>we create a fake object
16:26<frosch123>see articulated_vehicles.cpp
16:27<frosch123>ok, only one function CountArticulatedParts
16:28<m3henry>:v why are the Windows builds failing to find headers in CI?
16:31<m3henry>png.h, ft2build.h and zlib.h are missing
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>because it's not set up to install them?
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16:35<m3henry>Surely that sort of thing would be left alone once it was setup
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16:38<Thedarkb-T60>frosch123, Sorry about that.
16:38<Thedarkb-T60>I was away from my computer at the time.
16:38<Thedarkb-T60>If I start lagging out like that again, just kick me.
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16:38<Thedarkb-T60>I'd rather not be banned :)
16:44<frosch123>it was a timed bad, but did not work :p
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17:08<@peter1138>Hmm, tunnel gui? :o
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17:13<andythenorth>signals in tunnels
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18:45<drac_boy>hi there
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18:58<drac_boy>anything interesting?
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20:02<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN updated pull request #6811: Feature: Add NotRoadTypes (NRT)
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---Logclosed Fri Mar 15 00:00:12 2019