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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-03-17

---Logopened Sun Mar 17 00:00:15 2019
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04:12<utack>hello. does someone know where in the opengfx source i would find the town statue and fountain?
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04:18<utack>sorry, got it: "statuefountain.png"
04:18<@peter1138>If only it was all that logical :-)
04:19<utack>it is listed uner /houses/ and not /miscellaneous/, so it is only 50% logical
04:19<@peter1138>Hmm, I think that's because they appear in towns.
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04:29<@peter1138>"Oil refinery explosion"
04:29<@peter1138>Hmm, never seen that before.
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04:47<@peter1138>Damn, regression test fails :/
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04:52<@peter1138>Ah, dock removal behaviour. Hmm.
04:58<Eddi|zuHause><peter1138> Hmm, never seen that before. <-- playing without disasters usually, i presume?
04:58<@peter1138>Normally :-)
05:07<andythenorth>New Disasters!
05:08<andythenorth>why do I play with disasters off?
05:08<nielsm>GS disasters
05:08<andythenorth>no disasters, no breakdowns
05:08<andythenorth>then I complain the game is boring and needs GS
05:08<Eddi|zuHause>ufos, mainly
05:08<andythenorth>oh yeah, UFOs are stupid
05:08<Eddi|zuHause>landing in the same spot over and over, way too frequently
05:09<andythenorth>GS disasters will never happen
05:09<andythenorth>like GS-Anything
05:10<@peter1138>I better go. 20 minutes to get the start o_O
05:31<TrueBrain> <- what of this list do we use that makes us c++11? :D
05:49<Eddi|zuHause>is that an interesting question to ask? when we decided to go C++11, then naturally more and more of these will creep in slowly
05:52<TrueBrain>it is a very interesting question to ask, as nobody can answer it really :D
05:52<TrueBrain>the reason CMake from 3.8 decided to change it in 'meta' packages
05:52<TrueBrain>c++11, c++17, c++20
05:52<TrueBrain>funny how nice an idea sounds, but how impossible it is to roll out :)
05:53<TrueBrain>that dates back from when compilers added 1 feature at the time
05:53<TrueBrain>instead of a whole standard :P
05:53<TrueBrain>more to the point in our case, 'fallback' is not in there, so making MSVC automaticlaly use c++17 is not working :(
05:53<Eddi|zuHause>i think we have different definitions of "interesting" here :)
05:53<TrueBrain>so we need to special case MSVC, because we use a tiny bit of c++17 there :P
05:53<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: that is a you problem, not a me problem :D
05:55<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not understanding the problem you're trying to solve
05:55<TrueBrain>that you don't consider this interesting?
05:55<TrueBrain>that is a you problem, not a me problem :)
05:56<TrueBrain>doesn't need a resolution :)
05:56<Eddi|zuHause>the msvc problem
05:56<TrueBrain>we use 1 thing from c++17 with MSVC
05:56<TrueBrain>all other platforms are c++11
05:56<TrueBrain>so we had to special case MSVC
05:56<TrueBrain>which annoyed me
05:56<TrueBrain>well, honestly, I dont know if it is a c++17 feature, or that MSVC added it in c++17, and others in c++11
05:56<TrueBrain>I really don't know
05:56<TrueBrain>I just don't like special casing
05:57<TrueBrain>so I found this cxx_known_features
05:57<TrueBrain>and had to laugh how impossible and inpracticle it was
05:57<TrueBrain>that is all :)
05:57<Eddi|zuHause>see, it's not interesting :)
05:57<@Alberth>our lord aro will know
05:57<TrueBrain>see, it is a you problem :)
05:58<Eddi|zuHause>if it doesn't solve any problem
05:58<TrueBrain>things are only interesting if it solves problems?
05:58<@Alberth>but given that other compilers accept it under c++11, I'd guess msvc is wrong in using c++17
05:59<TrueBrain>wrong or not, it is the life we live in :P
05:59<@Alberth>yep :)
05:59<Eddi|zuHause>well, there are interesting things that don't solve problems, but you're already deeply into the "i have a problem" category here
06:00<TrueBrain>so many gcc flags we add .. holy crap
06:00<Eddi|zuHause>hory clap
06:01<TrueBrain>I so want to enable -Werror
06:01<TrueBrain>and /WX
06:01<Eddi|zuHause>that would imply solving all the warnings first?
06:01<TrueBrain>only if you consider passing CI important
06:03<TrueBrain>so .. how am I going to do all the -Ws ... depending on your GCC version, Clang version, etc, some are accepted, others are not
06:03<TrueBrain>do I just try to autodetect that ...
06:04<TrueBrain>or do we hard-code it ..
06:04<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perkel666 opened issue #7377: Day lenght multiplayer not available in options
06:04<Eddi|zuHause>i have a MSVC manual from like 1993
06:04<Eddi|zuHause>it says "Version 1.0"
06:05<Eddi|zuHause>(theoretically i should also have the corresponding installation disks)
06:08<TrueBrain>what a polite way to ask for daylength patch; that is a while ago
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06:14<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perkel666 opened issue #7378: No distance between towns/industries option
06:15*andythenorth BBL
06:15<TrueBrain>wait, you were here?
06:15<andythenorth>I will leave the polite reply to someone else :P
06:16<andythenorth>I am watching TV
06:16<andythenorth>I have lost all motivation to make things :P
06:16<andythenorth>and now, kids football :)
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06:24<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #7377: Day length multiplayer not available in options
06:24<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed issue #7377: Day length multiplayer not available in options
06:29<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #7378: No distance between towns/industries options
06:40<TrueBrain>we muted warnings that long have been solved .. lol
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>well, we wouldn't know when to unmute them?
06:43<TrueBrain>no, we fixed our code
06:43<TrueBrain>we had a few -Wno, because we did silly things in the code
06:43<TrueBrain>that got fixed .. -Wno didn't get removed :P
06:43<Eddi|zuHause>if the person fixing them wasn't the same as the one who added the -Wno, then why would they think of removing it?
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>or if some time had passed
06:44<TrueBrain>I am down to 2 -Wnos ..
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>probably putting in compiler options near the offending code instead of globally would have been a better idea
06:45<TrueBrain>lol .. icc and gcc want -rdynamic as compile-flag
06:45<TrueBrain>clang only as linker flag
06:46<Eddi|zuHause>aren't we using a configuration system precisely because it should abstract away such differences?
06:46<TrueBrain>it does a lot, but not everything, n
06:50<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perkel666 commented on issue #7377: Day length multiplayer not available in options
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06:56<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #7377: Day length multiplayer not available in options
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06:57<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Alberth289346 commented on issue #7377: Day length multiplayer not available in options
07:03<TrueBrain>wow, MSVC with /W4 goes bananas :D
07:05<@Alberth>they are actually useful warnings?
07:05<TrueBrain>not really looked at it, but I saw a few: parameter variable unused
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07:05<TrueBrain>which indeed should be a warning, in my opinion; you can mute it if youlike per parameter, but at least you are explicit you didnt want to do anything with that parameters
07:05<@Alberth>ah yeah, likely due to inheritance and overriding
07:08<@Alberth>these warnings tend to go overboard at some point, and warn for just about everything
07:08<@Alberth>"Warning: you wrote code that looks like nothing is wrong with it!"
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07:09<andythenorth_>7378 can be politely closed as ‘newgrf’
07:09<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
07:09<andythenorth_>our pllicy is content, not settings
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07:09<andythenorth_>per openttd wiki
07:10<TrueBrain>andythenorth_: can it be done with NewGRFs, or if we implement it, it could be done via NewGRFs? :D
07:11<TrueBrain>for all we know, he comes with a patch that adds this to NewGRF (if it is not already possible)
07:11<TrueBrain>IT COULD HAPPEN! :D
07:12<andythenorth_>it’s already solved in newgrf spec
07:13<andythenorth_>is DOS officially supported?
07:13<andythenorth_>also is macOS supported?
07:13*andythenorth_ reading README
07:13<TrueBrain>define "supported"
07:14<TrueBrain>but yes, DOS and MacOS "compile", and we "maintain" that :P
07:15<andythenorth_>website lists the officially supported platforms
07:15<andythenorth_>which is why I ask
07:15*andythenorth_ considering editing a few docs later
07:15<andythenorth_>when bored, do tedious bureaucracy :p
07:16<andythenorth_>I would like to move the goals into gh docs, not lost in a wiki nobody uses :)
07:17<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perkel666 commented on issue #7378: No distance between towns/industries options
07:18<TrueBrain>string.cpp:66:49: warning: format string is not a string literal [-Wformat-nonliteral] <- new warning I get from clang now; not sure
07:18<@Alberth>maybe a PR got added :p
07:18<@Alberth>interesting TB :)
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07:20<@Alberth>warning is a false positive, we're making our own vseprintf
07:21<TrueBrain>Alberth: so we should make it as such, I think. I believe you can .. not sure
07:21<TrueBrain>andythenorth_: you have an URL to the exact spec in NewGRF that allows the distance thing?
07:21<@Alberth>officially you would have to re-impement the format parsing (%d and friends), I think
07:21<andythenorth_>truebrain no
07:21<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7378: No distance between towns/industries options
07:22<andythenorth_>not on this phone anyway
07:22<TrueBrain>meh .. I don't like replying: you can do this with NewGRF, without details :P
07:23<andythenorth_>can do it later
07:23<TrueBrain>and I still don't understand NewGRF :P
07:23<andythenorth_>it requires creating an industry newgrf, for all industries wanted
07:24<andythenorth_>newgrf: action 8, action 0, action 1, action 2, action 3, action 4
07:25<andythenorth_>where’s the confusion? :p
07:25<TrueBrain>... :(
07:25<TrueBrain>I feel so dumb :(
07:25<andythenorth_>it’s ok TB we don’t mind :)
07:25<TrueBrain>I guess there is a callback when the game wants to place a town?
07:25<TrueBrain>FU andythenorth_ :P
07:25<andythenorth_>how do I git again?
07:26<andythenorth_>there’s a cb when the game wants to place industry
07:26<andythenorth_>towns are first
07:26<TrueBrain>found it, for industries, I guess :)
07:26<andythenorth_>then arbitrary variables can be checked
07:27<andythenorth_>then placement allowed / disallowed
07:28<@Alberth>no worries TB, I fail at newgrf too :)
07:28<andythenorth_>funny what real programmers fail at :p
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07:29<andythenorth_>is it the lack of any arcitectural clarity?
07:29<andythenorth_>or the sense that there was no design?
07:30<andythenorth_>or the seemingly arbitrary collection of actions, props, cbs?
07:30<@Alberth>lack of global structure mostly for me
07:31<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #7378: No distance between towns/industries options
07:31<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed issue #7378: No distance between towns/industries options
07:31<TrueBrain>NewGRF has no architectural anything
07:31<@Alberth>everything is a number, so it's impossible to remember
07:31<TrueBrain>it is just .. things .. which happens to work together
07:31<TrueBrain>there is no line, no consistency, no clarity of any kind
07:31<TrueBrain>(sorry, but there really is not)
07:31<andythenorth_>it’s built around “I want to do x to a train”
07:32<TrueBrain>its a runaway train
07:32<andythenorth_>just imagine it’s perl
07:32<TrueBrain>a perfect textbook example of how things can go wrong if you don't have an architect controlling the flow :P
07:32<andythenorth_>or drupal
07:32<TrueBrain>(I might or might not use this in my dayjob as an example .... :P)
07:32<@Alberth>I failed at perl too
07:33<andythenorth_>well we’re stuck with it :)
07:33<TrueBrain>anyway, that perkel dude does have a point; GitHub is not good for feature requests, but the forums is also shitty
07:33<@Alberth>"it does what you think it should do" doesn't work if you have no intuition what it should do in the first place
07:33<andythenorth_>need an ideation tool :p
07:33<andythenorth_>we sell one :p
07:34<@Alberth>issue tracker and feature requests are mostly mutually exclusive
07:34<TrueBrain>I do like how "demand" is defined by a thread with no replied for 6 years :P Not sure if that works for you, or against you :D
07:34*andythenorth_ offers TB discount on ideation tool
07:34<TrueBrain>yeah ... I keep hoping GitHub will add something for it
07:34<TrueBrain>andythenorth_: 100% or bust
07:35<TrueBrain>never heard the word ideation before btw :P
07:35<andythenorth_>the thing is that feature requests are near useless
07:35<TrueBrain>but it is a thing, I see (if I google)
07:35<TrueBrain>you need a clear vision in which you can put them
07:35<@Alberth>but people have an urgue to make them, "Suggestions" forum seems the best to me
07:36<TrueBrain>and some form of KPI to know what is needed
07:36<andythenorth_>so shall we merge the content APIs?
07:36<andythenorth_>gs + newgrf
07:36<andythenorth_>all in squirrel
07:36<TrueBrain>10+ years ago we tried to make OpenTTD into a generic framework engine, in which OpenTTD happened to be a variant
07:36<TrueBrain>but .. people did not like it :P
07:36<andythenorth_>frameworks :p
07:37<andythenorth_>I am still carrying technical debt from making our main product a configurable framework
07:37<TrueBrain>haha :D
07:37<andythenorth_>which would be flexible to meet commercial demands
07:37<TrueBrain>modular is good, configurable framework ... a bit more difficult to do correctly :D
07:37<@Alberth>when you have a clear vision, it's not a feature request any more
07:38<TrueBrain>Alberth: not always true; but it is a lot easier to plot them if they are valid or not
07:38<TrueBrain>a vision could be to make ships a viable way of running your company in OpenTTD
07:38<TrueBrain>tons of feature requests can be applied to that vision :)
07:38<andythenorth_>now we have a monolithic product, with configurable framework tentacles all tbe way through it
07:38<TrueBrain>it is just a lot more clear which fit the bill and not ;)
07:39<andythenorth_>so many abstractions
07:39<TrueBrain>andythenorth_: joy :D
07:39<andythenorth_>the product is what customers actually need and pay for
07:39<@Alberth>you graduated for Java university andy :)
07:39<TrueBrain>I always like things like: yeah, our product might be monolithic, but it can do anything we want!
07:39<andythenorth_>shame it’s 5x too big
07:39<andythenorth_>monolithic is fine
07:40<TrueBrain>depends heavily on your market, I found out :)
07:40<andythenorth_>alberth, worse, it’s Plone
07:40<TrueBrain>well, no, it is not the market .. a product should work within a well defined domain
07:40<TrueBrain>or any process, or any component
07:40<TrueBrain>as long as that is the case, everything is fine
07:41<andythenorth_>so we have a web app built in a heavyweight modular cms
07:41<@Alberth>hmm, somehow I am not sad I missed that andy :p
07:41<TrueBrain>but what people tend to do with monoliths, is just to plug something from the left, all the way to the right, because the function was there anyway :P
07:41<TrueBrain>there shit goes wrong :D
07:41<@Alberth>minimal effort to add a feature
07:42<andythenorth_>anyway newgrf :p
07:42<andythenorth_>also bbl
07:42<TrueBrain>I found out I am a big fan of multitier architecture ( .. one design pattern I can really understand why you want it :D
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07:42<TrueBrain>right, cmake debug flags ... do we really still want debug level 1 till 3 ..
07:45<@Alberth>having a debug build (less optimization and keeping symbols) would be useful at least
07:46<@Alberth>getting debug output on loading is useful too (for figuring out why something doesn't show up in game)
07:46<TrueBrain>yeah .. trying to figure out what our levels are exactly
07:46<TrueBrain>level 0 = release, sure
07:46<TrueBrain>level 1 = -g -D_DEBUG
07:46<TrueBrain>level 2 = -fno-inline
07:46<TrueBrain>level 3 = -O0
07:46<TrueBrain>CMake normally only has Debug and Release
07:47<@Alberth>the max level is perhaps also nice, but quite useless, as it continues spamming the output as the game runs
07:48<@Alberth>maybe useful for debugging game execution problems, don't know
07:48<TrueBrain>owh, level 2 does a few more things on GCC online
07:48<@Alberth>can't you give custom CXXFLAGS for cmake?
07:49<TrueBrain>but I like to be standard
07:49<TrueBrain>so if they offer Debug/Release
07:49<TrueBrain>do we really want to add more of those flavours
07:49<@Alberth>so you can do just 1 debug level, and then a developer can tune that whatever they like
07:49<TrueBrain>that is more my moral dilemma atm :D
07:50<TrueBrain>what if we let them 'tune' that via the CMake way, as in: cmake -DCXX_COMPILER_FLAGS="-O0 -fno-inline" ..
07:50<TrueBrain>(so don't make it an option, but something you can do yourself)
07:50<@Alberth>yeah, much simpler, and any developer can write a script with his favorite settings
07:51<@Alberth>enabling debug build is however messy in cmake, end-user documentation of cmake is pretty much non-existing
07:51<TrueBrain>yeah, that will be in the README
07:51<TrueBrain>but by default builds are always debug
07:51<@Alberth>clearly nobody is actually deploying cmake in his project :p
07:52<TrueBrain>so it is mostly our CF that needs to know this :D
07:52<TrueBrain>also wondering about profiling
07:52<TrueBrain>tempted to say you can do that with cmake -DCXX_COMPILER_FLAGS="-p" yourself
07:52<@Alberth>in CI ? or as option?
07:52<TrueBrain>as developer :)
07:53<@Alberth>just mention it in the docs would be fine imho
07:53<TrueBrain>it saves a lot of code in CMakeLists.txt
07:53<TrueBrain>so yeah, lets start there
07:53<TrueBrain>and see what happens :D
07:54<@Alberth>at the very least you'd also need to consider what to profile etc, so it's not just "cmake profile" ; run
07:54<TrueBrain>k .. 2 things left to tackle ... -DRANDOM_DEBUG, and LTO
07:54<TrueBrain>I dont know what LTO is, so I have to look that up :)
07:54<TrueBrain>RANDOM_DEBUG ... it is such an unusual thing to do ..
07:55<@Alberth>link time optimization
07:55<@Alberth>compile does a partial job, linking then combines everything and performs more optimization
07:56<TrueBrain>well, mostly I am a bit confused why it is an option etc
07:56<TrueBrain>but okay .. RANDOM_DEBUG is for me on the same level as debug levels and profiling, so I am going to put that in the README
07:56<@Alberth>wit the idea that linking has a better view of how functions are called
07:57<@Alberth>random debug in docs I fully agree
07:57<@Alberth>don't know what lto does for openttd, if it's significant, it might be nice to add it, or even make it standard for compilers that have it
07:57<TrueBrain>so the LTO .. is that not on by default? I mean ..
07:58<@Alberth>not in gcc 5.4 at ubuntu, I found out last week :p
07:59<TrueBrain>GCC only in current OpenTTD ..
07:59<TrueBrain>-flto or -flto=jobserver
07:59<TrueBrain>is added
07:59<@Alberth>don't know what the current compiler (8.x) does
07:59<TrueBrain>and -fwhole-program
08:00<@Alberth>yes, -flto enables it, -fwhole-program is for saying "this is the entire executable, do it"
08:00<TrueBrain>and all CLFAGS are added to LDFLAGS if you enable lto
08:01<@Alberth>yeah, linking does compiling then too, so it needs the exact same flags etc
08:02<@Alberth>-fwhole-program isn't needed if you use gcc also for linking btw
08:03<@Alberth>If you don't add it to the build script I am not sure it's simple to manage, you need to set flags for both the linker and the compiler
08:04<@Alberth>on the other hand, likely someone has figured out how to convince cmake doing lto already?
08:04<TrueBrain>that I am looking in now :)
08:04<TrueBrain>for ICC, yes
08:04<TrueBrain>for gcc .. possibly
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08:10<TrueBrain>set_target_properties(openttd PROPERTIES INTERPROCEDURAL_OPTIMIZATION True)
08:11<andythenorth>proper irc again
08:11<TrueBrain>guess I could apply it on all targets .. but .. strgen .. who cares
08:11<TrueBrain>c++ -flto -fno-fat-lto-objects
08:11<TrueBrain>yeah, it works out-of-the-box, if you have CMake 3.9 or higher
08:11<TrueBrain>otherwise .. it disables LTO :)
08:11<TrueBrain>wow, linking takes a lot longer
08:11<TrueBrain>like .. a lot
08:12<nielsm>just like it does in msvc release builds
08:12<TrueBrain>should we only enable it for releases? Or also for debug?
08:13<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc opened pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading
08:14<TrueBrain>even enables it for clang, which current OpenTTD doesn't :P
08:14<TrueBrain>so I feel a "Remove: DOS support" incoming michi_cc :D
08:15<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading
08:17<+michi_cc>Hmm, gcc seems to have a different interpretation of lock_guard
08:21<TrueBrain>funny, CMake already does the -g stuff etc
08:21<andythenorth>so what's the canonical source for OpenTTD docs?
08:22<nielsm>what kind of docs?
08:22<nielsm>user's manual?
08:22<nielsm>code documentation?
08:22<andythenorth>project top-level
08:22<andythenorth>'what is it?' etc
08:23<andythenorth>to ask the question a different way
08:23<andythenorth>which platforms are supported?
08:25<andythenorth>what's the canonical way to compile?
08:27<andythenorth>should bug reports be submitted like:
08:27<andythenorth>or simply using the issue template?
08:32<@Alberth>what is broken with NML templates? they seem to have limited use, and people resort to cpp or python
08:33<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading
08:36<andythenorth>Alberth: nml templates? ;O
08:36<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
08:37<andythenorth>if we're talking about same concept...I'll find a link
08:37<@Alberth> at the bottom
08:37<andythenorth>Alberth: they're solvely for realsprites
08:38<andythenorth>they're a dedicated solution to one small problem
08:38<@Alberth>which is a totally useful spot for mentioning templates :p
08:38<andythenorth>solvely / solely /s
08:39<andythenorth>do you want me to explain their use case, or are they obvious?
08:39<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading
08:39<@Alberth>well, it does text-replacement I think (judging from the explanation), so they would be applicable for more cases
08:40<@Alberth>or they don't do text replacement, in which case, yeah, limited use
08:40<@Alberth>I understand the sprite template case andy, no need to explain
08:40<andythenorth>it's just a helper really
08:41<@Alberth>just wondering why nobody uses it more widely
08:41<andythenorth>I remember yexo was curious about adding a template language
08:41<andythenorth>but was on the fence about how best to do it
08:42<andythenorth>are the current templates unvalidated?
08:42<andythenorth>if I wanted to use them for general purpose text substitution, they'd work?
08:42<@Alberth>if they're just text replacements, I'd guess they are
08:42*andythenorth assumed they'd have a linter to enforce that they're realsprites
08:45*andythenorth sketching bonfire + redesign
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08:48<andythenorth>so what is OpenTTD?
08:48<Eddi|zuHause><TrueBrain> c++ -flto -fno-fat-lto-objects <-- does that still count as "english"? :p
08:48<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading
08:49<andythenorth>^^^ let's assume everyone who answers is probably wrong, but tell me anyway
08:49<TrueBrain>no it does not ;)
08:49<@Alberth>indeed, simple example fails with template, so it might be about that one use case only
08:49<+michi_cc>Sorry about that update spam, but apparently some things work differently depending on if gcc is doing strict C++11 or C++11 and later.
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>"OpenTTD is a fan-made remake of the classic 90's game 'Transport Tycoon Deluxe'"
08:50*andythenorth copy-pastes to a file
08:50<+michi_cc>"OpenTTD is supposed to be a fun game for all ages"
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>optionally include: [originally developed by Chris Sawyer] [bringing it to modern computers] [adding more and more features]
08:52<andythenorth>what are the best bits of OpenTTD?
08:52<Eddi|zuHause>how elaborate do you want it to be?
08:53<andythenorth>I'm *not* trying to do 'marketing' to bring more players into the game
08:53<andythenorth>I don't care aboiut that
08:53<andythenorth>I just want the project docs / website to feel well crafted
08:53<andythenorth>and cared about
08:54<andythenorth>we incidentally have one of the most successful open source games, AIUI
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>* works on modern computers * bigger maps, more vehicles * mod support (NewGRF, Scripts, AIs...) * online multiplayer
08:55<andythenorth>eh I did a pretty objective google search 'best open source games'
08:55<andythenorth>this was top result
08:55<andythenorth>according to unknown metrics ;P
08:56<andythenorth>#13 here
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>"the 8 must-play-games: [list of 5 entries]"
08:59<andythenorth> #8
09:05<@peter1138>was cycling
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>but it's raining
09:06<andythenorth>pretty nice here
09:06<andythenorth>eh, we get all these nice write ups
09:06<andythenorth>there is a whole world outside of tt-forums griping :P
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: well, that it's still being actively developed after over a decade is a really unique trait in the software world
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it's called a filter bubble
09:07<@peter1138>TrueBrain, I compile with -Werror, it good.
09:08<TrueBrain>sadly, we have some warnings on some targets
09:08<TrueBrain>so the CI won't like that :P
09:08<TrueBrain>but okay .. port first, improve later :)
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09:09<criador15>hey o/
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: really, i'd rather have a "if TARGET disable warning X" in the code
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>near where the warning is...
09:09<TrueBrain>near -Wall? Sounds wrong :P
09:09<TrueBrain>either way, port first, improve later :)
09:10<criador15>talking about ottd warning messages?
09:10<criador15>efficience last
09:10<TrueBrain>so we need nforenum and grfcodec for creating openttd.grf
09:11<criador15>i had trouble trying to make a info dialog apear, i just need to use the GSGoal.question() method to make one apear?(using ottd 1.8.0 in GS files)
09:12<Eddi|zuHause>can't we remove openttd.grf from the repo, and package it into the installer separately, maybe with opengfx and some selected AIs as well?
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>like, tutorial and stuff
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>also, if not found, download openttd.grf from bananas (but hide it from normal downloading)
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09:18<TrueBrain>-- Detecting nforenum
09:18<TrueBrain>-- Detecting nforenum - found
09:18<TrueBrain>-- Detecting grfcodec
09:18<TrueBrain>-- Detecting grfcodec - found
09:18<TrueBrain>easy peazy
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09:19<criador15>alberth you know hot to display dialogs via gs?
09:20<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading
09:23<@Alberth>no, I only post goals and news
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09:31<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading
09:32<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading
09:51<Eddi|zuHause>/usr/include/c++/7/condition_variable:197:55: error: request for member ‘unlock’ in ‘__lk’, which is of pointer type ‘std::recursive_mutex*’ (maybe you meant to use ‘->’ ?)
09:52<+glx>michi_cc: in unix.cpp, move the last #endif above the function
09:52<+glx>and osx should be happy
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09:53<criador15>planetmaker, the game suport some sort of ´display a dialog with string´ system? and to read player input?
09:54<+glx>and that's why we really should try to use comments for #endif ;)
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>criador15: have you looked at what the tutorial does?
09:55<criador15>it dont run well here
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>criador15: it works as both a game tutorial, and a game script tutorial
09:55<criador15>(the dialog in question dont apeared when i tested)
09:55<+glx>I think there's a query function
09:57<+glx>hmm no only buttons
09:58<criador15>ok, so if i want to make a ´choose a vehicle´ system, it will be using next,previous and ok, and delete update and create the window, right?
10:01<nielsm>that will end up as a bad user experience
10:01<criador15>i know, and you know how to improve that?
10:02<nielsm>GS does not really support any good kind of list selection yet
10:02<criador15>maybe the developer can add that on 1.9.1
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>criador15: no, any development now will have to wait until 1.10
10:03<nielsm>make a story page listing the options and tell the player to put a sign with a specific text/number to select something
10:04<nielsm>signs are basically the only way for a player to send something to GS, that isn't a question box
10:04<criador15>that should work well
10:05<criador15>and if the user tries to troll my make, i can make all vehicle crash :D
10:05<criador15>my GS*
10:05<nielsm>well, no you can't
10:05<criador15>i am kidding
10:05<nielsm>I'm quite sure GS does not have that kind of powers
10:05<criador15>thanks for the info
10:06<+glx>GS can give money, and probably take it too
10:06<criador15>where is that function? GSCompany?
10:07<criador15>loan is borrow or pay, and bank ballance is the disponible cash in game?
10:08<+glx>bank balance is the really available money
10:10<+glx>ahah a GS can start and stop vehicles
10:11<+glx>but a GS doing silly things will probably be hated :)
10:12<@peter1138>And... back again
10:12<criador15>deppends of the silly things
10:12<+glx>like get the list of road vehicles, check if a vehicle is on railroad crossing and stop it there :)
10:13<criador15>then set bank ballance to 0 when the player try to break the GS
10:14<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading
10:16<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: I have seen a lot more interesting errors during development. Errors with 15 lines of template nonsense are so fun, don't you think? :p
10:16<+glx>well templates are always fun
10:17<+glx>then you have YAPF using templated templates ;)
10:17<andythenorth>until you're templating templates, you're not really playing
10:18<criador15>have you tried to automated templates?
10:19<andythenorth>templating templates
10:19<andythenorth>including string replacement, where the string is also templated
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10:20<+glx>hey it's worse, you do it in python ;)
10:21<+glx>and nml
10:21<andythenorth>then nmlc turns it back into python
10:21<andythenorth>then writes it out as grf
10:21<andythenorth>so I use python to template an ingest format for a python programme
10:25<+michi_cc>Yeah, green checkmark :)
10:27<TrueBrain>michi_cc: gratz! That is .. not bad :D
10:29<@LordAro>michi_cc: only 15 lines of errors? those are rookie numbers
10:29<+michi_cc>No, 15 lines for one error.
10:30<@LordAro>ah yes, that sounds better :)
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10:37<@peter1138>sausage and blackpudding,eh?
10:37<@LordAro>coffee was decidedly underwhelming though
10:38<@peter1138>i didn't bother stopped for elevenses
10:38<@peter1138>I basically wanted to get home early so I could fix this multi-tile dock bug
10:39<@peter1138>I ruined that by popping out to Tesco when I got home, but never mind.
10:42<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading
10:44<@peter1138>Mmm, IpA
10:44<@peter1138>IPA, even
10:45<@peter1138>Although it's from a can. But a 6 pack for £2.60 was a reduction difficult to refuse.
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10:49<Samu>patch of exile! the game that patches every day
10:49<TrueBrain>except .. it doesn't
10:49<@peter1138>Running ai/regression/tst_regression... passed!
10:49<@peter1138>That's always nice.
10:50<@peter1138>Hmm, now to split this patch up.
10:50<@peter1138>Becuase it'll be too big now :/
10:50<TrueBrain>that's .. what she said?
10:51<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN opened pull request #7380: Feature: Multi-tile docks.
10:52<@peter1138>ShipAI still makes a mess...
10:54<Samu>lol I died
10:54<Samu>in poe
10:54<@peter1138>Oh. Boring.
10:55<Samu>always thinking i can tank everything
10:56<@peter1138> < those depots
10:56<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading
10:56<@peter1138>Also, grey ship hiding underneath the helipad.
10:56<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading
10:56<+glx>peter1138: AI depots ?
10:57<@peter1138>ShipAI is very... deterministic.
10:58<@peter1138>It'll start off with each instance building the same routes.
10:58<+glx>yeah, I can't build here ? let's try 2 tiles away
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11:00<@peter1138>Green has a bit of a problem here...
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11:01<+glx>and pink building 2 docks
11:01<@peter1138>The sign is above the land part.
11:01<+glx>ha yes signs are offset
11:01<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading
11:02<@peter1138>Samu, I suspect something like that may be prudent.
11:03<Samu>green was there first, though
11:03<@peter1138>Of course, when AIs can be single-tile docks, this problem won't exist.
11:03<TrueBrain>pfew, generating the grf files is nasty .. mainly as those 2 files are inside the source folder, not the binary .. hmm
11:04<+glx>set working dir in source ?
11:04<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading
11:04<TrueBrain>it needs a temporary file in the same folder
11:04<TrueBrain>as grfcodec is a shitty tool (sorry, but it is)
11:04<+glx>ah that's bad
11:04<+glx>copy source files to binary dir then
11:04<TrueBrain>which is very annoying to do
11:05<TrueBrain>but there the complexity is coming in ;)
11:05<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #7379: Codechange: Use C++11 functions for threading
11:05<+glx>ah and mingw is broken now :)
11:05<+glx>but i know what to fix
11:05<TrueBrain>I love how even our devs are this verbose
11:06<TrueBrain>ah; well, yeah, I will throw a if(WIN32) around it
11:06<TrueBrain>I have some more fixes in the pipeline
11:06<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
11:06<TrueBrain>too late, I guess :P
11:07<+glx>no it's a comment
11:07<+glx>not an updated ;)
11:07<TrueBrain>ah :D
11:07<+glx>just pointing to my branch
11:08<+glx>configure_file() is nice but some times you end up with generated file being older that source file
11:09<TrueBrain>what is your clock doing over there?!
11:09<+glx>and not recreated because nothing changed
11:09<@LordAro>so it doesn't matter?
11:09<+glx>well it redo the generation step for nothing
11:10<TrueBrain>so you save an unchanged file?
11:10<TrueBrain>this makes little sense glx, sorry :D
11:10<+glx>configure_file() writes the file only if it's different
11:11<+glx>but source, or script used to generated can be newer
11:11<+glx>and still produce the same output so the generated file is untouched
11:12<@peter1138>Bloody vim, why does it fuck up my tabs? :(
11:12<TrueBrain>I have the same issue with VisualStudioCode in 1 file ..
11:13<+glx>usually I solve that with a make clean
11:13<TrueBrain>glx: still not sure what you mean, but I m sure Iwill find out or something :)
11:13<@LordAro>i get what glx means, i'm just not sure why it's an issue :p
11:14<+glx>it's not an issue, it's just annoying
11:15<+glx>because regenerating hpp.sq for nothing is not fast
11:15<+glx>especially when the result is discarded because unmodified
11:17<+glx>but if the files are touched when unmodified it would be worse because that would mean recompiling
11:17<TrueBrain>okay ... next on the agenda ... write CMake that handles #include in a file .. lol ..
11:19<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN updated pull request #7380: Feature: Multi-tile docks.
11:19<@peter1138>IPA no. 2
11:19<+glx>hmm the scripts could OUTPUT a timestamp file and BYPRODUCTS the real output
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11:24<+glx>I'll try that for basesets
11:25<@peter1138>"Since you are re-building the game" uhhh...
11:25<TrueBrain>"Unknown NFO file version: 1. Attempting to parse as version 4."
11:25<TrueBrain>promising ...
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: means you have an invalid grf header? (the // part at the beginning)
11:26<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: yeah .. I added my own header on top
11:26<TrueBrain>but that seems to completely confuse everything
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, it looks like a comment, but isn't :p
11:27<TrueBrain>"A portion of sprite 0 could not be processed."
11:27<@peter1138>Ok, shall I consider... newgrf dock spec?
11:27<TrueBrain>okay ... is that bad? is that good?
11:27<TrueBrain>does that always happen?
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>not usually
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11:28<TrueBrain>I love how it does not give details :(
11:29<nielsm>peter1138: if it could allow for "level" docks for canals it might be worthwhile
11:29<nielsm>but I'm not sure how to go about doing it
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: nforenum?
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: it puts the details into the file
11:29<nielsm>peter1138: do your changes already allow more than one dock in a station?
11:30<@peter1138>nielsm, yes.
11:30<@peter1138>nielsm, newgrf docks is the plan for any more than the default docks.
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>bah, these rivers look all wrong :/
11:30<@peter1138>nielsm, by "consider" I mean "consider what I need to do" rather than "should I do it" :)
11:31<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: the NFO is HUGE .. :P
11:31<TrueBrain>how do I find out more?
11:31<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: which grf?
11:31<@peter1138>nielsm, my changes also allow docks to be built from just a single tile, or indeed, lots of tiles.
11:31<TrueBrain>both openttd.grf as orig_extra.grf
11:31<@peter1138>nielsm, just you can't build that way yet :)
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: about 6k lines?
11:35<nielsm>peter1138: my thought is making a tilelayout with an "anchor" tile (which one you point to with the mouse), having elevation and water-ness requirements on each tile in the layout, and water tiles in the layout can be marked as docking positions
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i just "cat *.nfo | wc -l"
11:35<nielsm>and each tile participating in the layout must have all four rotations available
11:35<nielsm>I guess you may need to manually select rotation for some layouts?
11:36<TrueBrain>hmm .. it really is my cmake works that only throws this error
11:36<TrueBrain>lets figure out why ..
11:36<@peter1138>Seems overcomplicated.
11:36<@peter1138>Docking positions are automatic, they are adjacent to any dock tile.
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>where is even the makefile for the extra_grf?
11:37<TrueBrain>lol .. found the issue :D
11:38<TrueBrain>a ; in CMake is next-entry-in-list
11:38<TrueBrain>we have a ; in text
11:38<TrueBrain>so it becomes 2 lists :D
11:38<TrueBrain>owh boy
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like you need escapes :p
11:39<TrueBrain>string(REPLACE ";" "\\;" NFO_LINES "${NFO_LINES}")
11:39<TrueBrain>exactly what I did :P
11:39<TrueBrain>yeah, now it works \o/
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>so what is the difference between openttd and orig_extra?
11:40<TrueBrain>I was wondering the same, and I am figure that out :)
11:40<@peter1138>Hmm, new-object orientation is... odd?
11:40<@peter1138>Not sure if it's random or based on cursor position.
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>is there anything in this game that is not... odd? :p
11:41<TrueBrain>we are not really good in .... keeping things tight and clean :)
11:41<@peter1138>Pretty sure it's random, but then that would be down to the set I'm using faking orientation.
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>that's probably it
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>they go like "well, you can place it again if it's the wrong one"
11:43*andythenorth tests 7380
11:43<TrueBrain>for example, did you know in extra_grf is a folder rivers, that is copied in the main folder on compiling?
11:44<TrueBrain>so if you name two files the same in 2 folders
11:44<TrueBrain>you won't notice that it doesnt work
11:44<TrueBrain>libpng warning: iCCP: known incorrect sRGB profile
11:44<@peter1138>Happens in master :P
11:44<andythenorth>oh yeah that's standard
11:45<andythenorth>you can fix it by batch processing them with photoshop
11:45<TrueBrain>and I guess that is the end of it? We simply dont care? :P
11:45<andythenorth>but sometimes something puts them back
11:45<@peter1138>I care but not enough to get around to fixing it.
11:45<andythenorth>I gave up fixing it
11:45<andythenorth>because it tends to recur
11:45<@peter1138>Cos when I do that I end up trying to split it all up as well.
11:45<TrueBrain>so call out the person who reintroduces it :P
11:46<TrueBrain>anyway, orig_extra and openttd share almost no files .. except for 3 pngs :D
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: that's been there literally for years, nobody cared :p
11:46<TrueBrain>so I now have 2 folders, one for each grf
11:47<andythenorth>it's probably upstream in libpng
11:47<TrueBrain>but .. 3 files that are annoying :D
11:47<TrueBrain>andythenorth: it sounds like the pngs are wrong, and libpng informs us about it
11:47<TrueBrain>but that might be my interpertation :D
11:47<@peter1138>nielsm, newobjects gui has everything needed, i think.
11:47<Eddi|zuHause>but... we disregard the sRGB profile anyway?
11:48<andythenorth>yeah but libpng cares
11:48<@peter1138>It's 8 bpp, I'm not sure why sRGB profiles are involved.
11:48<andythenorth>if these are paletted 8bpp
11:48<andythenorth>what peter said
11:48<andythenorth>faster typing :P
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>i have no clue what an sRGB profile even does
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>i'm assuming it's for colour correction?
11:49<andythenorth>seems that an accepted solution is
11:49<andythenorth>"Use pngcrush to remove the incorrect sRGB profile from the png file:"
11:49<andythenorth>so introduce an additional dependency to fix the bad input
11:50<TrueBrain>so I guess sometimes someone fixes a png, doesnt run pngcrush, and tada?
11:50<TrueBrain>(as it seems to be only an issue for 1 or 2 PNGs)
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>put a check in the pre-commit hook?
11:50<@peter1138>Well, not all image editors message with sRGB unnecessarily.
11:50<andythenorth>it seems that it was common to set the whitepoint to D50 where D65 is expected
11:51<andythenorth>this value is baked into some bitmap editor exports
11:51<andythenorth>according to google :P
11:51<andythenorth>so it will just keep on recurring
11:51<andythenorth>how about
11:51<andythenorth>we drop grfcodec?
11:51<andythenorth>I am not even trolling
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>you sound like planetmaker now
11:52<andythenorth>it's a fucking disaster having two ways to make newgrfs
11:52<andythenorth>one is slow and unmaintained
11:52<andythenorth>the other is fast and doesn't need maintained
11:52<andythenorth>but nobody can use it
11:52<@peter1138>How about no?
11:52<@peter1138>People use both, stop being stupid/.
11:52<andythenorth>LordAro made a non-trolling suggestion yesterday, have OpenTTD read nml or similar
11:53<@peter1138>There's GRFMaker as well.
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>"use the right tool for the job" implies there being more than one tool
11:53<@peter1138>andythenorth, that wasn't a serious suggesting.
11:53<andythenorth>yes it also implies there are two jobs Eddi|zuHause
11:53<andythenorth>but the job is making a newgrf
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>oh there are definitely more than two jobs
11:54<andythenorth>ok so suppress the libpng warning in stdout
11:54<andythenorth>or add a dependency to strip the iCCP chunk from the PNG image
11:54<andythenorth>or tell every contributor which bitmap editors are officially permitted
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>can't we pass an option to libpng?
11:55<andythenorth>then we can move on and finish cmake :P
11:55<@peter1138>NewObject sound effects are a bit mad...
11:56<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
11:56<andythenorth>ok the solution I've found so far is to recompile libpng
11:56<@peter1138>Oh, no, that's just 6music.
11:56<TrueBrain>glx: if you have nforenum/grfcodec installed, ^^ would be a nice candidate to test if it also works for you :D
11:56<andythenorth>or don't use libpng 1.6+
11:56<andythenorth>yeah one of the solutions is downgrade
11:57<@peter1138>CI check it?
11:58<+glx>hmm I may have an old grfcodec version somewhere not in the path
11:58<andythenorth>is imagemagick generally available?
11:58<TrueBrain>hmm .. you have to manually generate it now, it seems .. let me see if I can fix that ..
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>great. when i type "libpng" into google, it autocompletes that to "libpng warning iccp known incorrect srgb profile"
11:59<andythenorth>it's a really common issue
12:00<andythenorth>there are many many proposed solutions
12:00<andythenorth>peter1138: I have ships waiting on 3 tiles :)
12:02<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
12:03<andythenorth>the easiest libpng solution is to ignore it
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>so we just use pngcrush on the files, commit them, and then make the CI fail on people reintroducing the warning
12:03<TrueBrain>CI is no longer picking up my branch .. not sure why not :D
12:03<@peter1138>if (IsDockingTile(tile)) return CMD_ERROR;
12:04<@peter1138>That stops AIs block each other badly.
12:04<TrueBrain>possibly the 100+ commits ...
12:04<andythenorth>it's pretty discouraging to casual commits
12:04<andythenorth>to get a CI fail
12:04<@peter1138>Stops your placing docks next to each other, though.
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: how is 100 commits a lot?
12:04<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: in 1 PR? :D
12:05<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: i can't imagine nobody ever exceeded that number :p
12:05<@peter1138>Some of the buoys this ShipAI builds are... very coast-hugging.
12:05<TrueBrain>sorry, 161 commits
12:05<TrueBrain>now one of the bigger steps to go .... bundles
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: i dunno what it does with the commits, but i can't imagine any number <1000000 causing any significant problems
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12:06<@peter1138>+505-80 :(
12:06<pnda>With what command is the nmlc.exe file generated?
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>pnda: i don't know why we even make such a thing... just tell people to install python...
12:07<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that's definitely one answer :P
12:07<pnda>Well sure, it's a way
12:07<andythenorth>but we do make such a thing
12:07<andythenorth>and I have NFI how nmlc.exe is used
12:07<andythenorth>is it documented?
12:07<pnda>But for the people who just want to have a .exe. What command is it?
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>pnda: tried "make"? :)
12:08<andythenorth>that won't work
12:08<pnda>I only tried build
12:08<andythenorth>yeah I can't find any docs on nmlc.exe
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>it runs "/usr/bin/env python3 build_ext --inplace"
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>and then fails because i have no Python.h
12:10<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
12:10<pnda>That command just creates a .pyd file for me
12:10<andythenorth>do you just double click it pnda ?
12:10<TrueBrain>glx: rebase ^^
12:10<andythenorth>it's a binary?
12:10<TrueBrain>possibly that kills your branch .. I suggest you cherry-pick it
12:10<andythenorth>forums say to do this pnda
12:11<andythenorth>we need a forest fire
12:11<andythenorth>to allow some new growth
12:12<pnda>Uhm that forum post only explains how to use nmlc, to compile nml to a grf.
12:12<pnda>And with this .pyd file which is generated, can I do anything with that?
12:12<andythenorth>TrueBrain: it's nice that README says you are inactive, so free from all responsibility :D
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>i can't find any info on the .exe
12:13<TrueBrain>lets keep it that way andythenorth :)
12:13<andythenorth>how many pages listing developers do we need? o_O
12:13<andythenorth>don't answer :P
12:13<andythenorth>"99" would be enough
12:14<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
12:14<TrueBrain>I really need to start squashing this branch ... :D
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>i find absolutely no info on the .exe file
12:14<andythenorth>I am really glad to mostly escape being in the contributor lists :D
12:15<andythenorth>I would hate to be listed
12:15<TrueBrain>so many easy jokes to make here ... :D <3
12:15<andythenorth>ha ha LordAro is a contributor not a developer
12:16<andythenorth>if anybody else wants to identify stupidity in the website / GH / wiki / other public docs
12:16<andythenorth>I am actually doing 'measure twice, cut once'
12:16<andythenorth>not just planning a bonfire
12:16<SpComb>burn everything
12:16<andythenorth>no, burn nearly everything
12:16<andythenorth>and put the best bits behind the shed for later
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>pnda: "wine 'C:\Python27\pythonw.exe' 'C:\Python27\Scripts\cxfreeze' nmlc"
12:17<andythenorth>who's our audience
12:17<andythenorth>more people using a binary
12:17<andythenorth>or more people compiling?
12:18<andythenorth>pick one
12:18<@peter1138>Everything is either/or, black/white with you.
12:18<pnda>Eddi|zuHause: Will that create a .exe?
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>pnda: i think so
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>not sure why it's python27
12:18<andythenorth>it shouldn't be
12:18<TrueBrain>okay, LTO / IPO is now off for debug builds .. that takes way too long to be practical ..
12:19<andythenorth>nmlc is python3 for a long time
12:19<pnda>Python27 isn't supported anymore
12:19<andythenorth>peter1138: that's a bit black and white :P
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>but that's cxfreeze, not nmlc
12:19<@peter1138>vim src/newgrf.cpp
12:19<@peter1138>Pretty sure this way lies danger...
12:19<andythenorth>so yeah, if I write / rewrite a 'getting started' section
12:19<andythenorth>does that say 'first compile'
12:19<andythenorth>or 'download'
12:19<andythenorth>like, who's the audience?
12:19<TrueBrain>make two: developers and players
12:20<@peter1138>First explain what the fuck it is.
12:20<@peter1138>Too many shitty open source projects start with "this is how you compile this thing which you don't know what it actually does"
12:20<andythenorth>ok you gave the answers I wanted :P
12:21<+glx>TrueBrain: I know how to easily rebase my branches now, so it's not a problem
12:21<TrueBrain>right .. so close, I can almost taste it :) (cmake branch)
12:21<pnda>I am also amazed that nmlc is currently working from any directory, but I don't have it installed it to oPATH.
12:21<SpComb>git reset --soft master && git commit -am "do stuff"
12:21<TrueBrain>glx: good :)
12:22<TrueBrain>owh, right, and I should test ICC
12:22<andythenorth>this is what I had sketched out, probably ultimately a website front page
12:22<TrueBrain>not sure why :P
12:22<+glx>git rebase -i --onto <source branch> HEAD~XXX where HEAD~XXX is my commits
12:22<Eddi|zuHause>pnda: maybe it's a different version that is in your path?
12:22<TrueBrain>andythenorth: 3.6 and 3.7 should not be under develop, tbh
12:22<TrueBrain>otherwise, nice :)
12:22<pnda>No there's nothing in PATH
12:23<andythenorth>TrueBrain: yeah, I just don't want a 4th heading, 3 is nice
12:23<andythenorth>2. probably needs 'multiplayer'
12:23<pnda>There's only a reference to Python37
12:23<TrueBrain>so 3.6 under 1, and 3.7 under 2? :D
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12:24<criador15>i am trying to make ´local invalid = GSText(GSText.STR_INVALID_NAME);´ use a string as param, right?
12:24<criador15>in english.txt its write this : ´STR_INVALID_NAME :{YELLOW}{STRING}´
12:25<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: there should be a "OH NO!!!" section in 1. which should cover 3.6
12:25<criador15>how i set the param?
12:25<pnda>criador15: is this for NML?
12:25<criador15>this dont worked wekl placa.SetParam(1,"nome não é nulo!"); invalid.AddParam(1);
12:25<criador15>Game Script
12:26<Eddi|zuHause>criador15: AddParam(placa)?
12:27<criador15>invalid.SetParam(1,"nome não é nulo!"); invalid.AddParam(1); stil dont output the correct text
12:27<Eddi|zuHause>well, half of the words in there didn't make any sense, so i just randomly guessed something
12:27<andythenorth>oh more depth
12:28<andythenorth>not too worried what goes where yet, but
12:28<andythenorth>I figure both and GH should point to one place that covers most of this easily
12:29<Eddi|zuHause>criador15: the parameter to AddParam should definitely not be "1"
12:29<andythenorth>oh I missed development goals out
12:29<Eddi|zuHause>criador15: also, you probably don't need both SetParam and AddParam at the same time
12:29<criador15>eddi|zuHause should it contain the String that will output?
12:30<criador15>this dont work either ´local invalid = GSText(GSText.STR_INVALID_NAME); invalid.AddParam("nome não é nulo!");´
12:30<TrueBrain>andythenorth: I would consider multiplayer part of the core game tbh
12:31<Eddi|zuHause>criador15: should probably be another GSText.STR_WHATEVER?
12:31<criador15>its output a (instance )
12:31<andythenorth>TrueBrain is MP even a specific topic? I added it because server listing etc, not sure
12:31<TrueBrain>might be nice to at least mention, yeah
12:31<andythenorth>peter1138: unrelated I tried to make a RiscOS emulator work earlier :P
12:32<andythenorth>yeah, bad project websites
12:33<criador15>still output instance, thats strange
12:34<criador15>that way? :´local invalid = GSText(GSText.STR_INVALID_NAME); invalid.AddParam(GSText.STR_NOT_NULL_NAME);´
12:35<criador15>in english.txt is like: ´STR_INVALID_NAME :{YELLOW}{STRING} STR_NOT_NULL_NAME :Name is not null!´
12:36<Eddi|zuHause>yeah something like that
12:36<Eddi|zuHause>also "GSText(GSText.STR_INVALID_NAME, GSText.STR_NOT_NULL_NAME)" might work
12:37<@peter1138>More JGR NewGRF specs... Hmm.
12:38<criador15>here not worked
12:38<criador15>output (instance)
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>criador15: then your problem is probably elsewhere
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>criador15: how do you output it?
12:38<criador15>GSLog.Info("is "+invalid);
12:39<criador15>output: is (instance: XxXXXXXX)
12:39<pnda>Uh so I have this: handle = open(file, "w") handle.write(file2)
12:40<pnda>But this doesn't write anything to that file
12:40<criador15>which language?
12:40<criador15>(did you flush or close?)
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>criador15: well, "invalid" is not a string in the squirrel sense
12:40<pnda>yes I closed
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>criador15: it's a description how openttd should assemble the display string
12:40<criador15>invalid is the local var
12:40<criador15>local invalid = GSText(GSText.STR_INVALID_NAME, GSText.STR_NOT_NULL_NAME);
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>yes, the local var is not of "string" type
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>it's of "GSText" type
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>can't just print it
12:41<pnda>I had a typo, nvm
12:41<criador15>so, what i d?
12:42<criador15>there is a way to make StringID return the string text?
12:42<criador15>now i understand, it returns the memory addres
12:42<+glx>GSText is not for logging I think
12:43<Eddi|zuHause>there is a "GetDecodedText" but it doesn't seem that is exposed to the script api
12:44<+glx>GSText is for functions expecting a Text (there it can be GSText, raw string or null)
12:45<criador15>GSLog.Info("is "+GSText.STR_NOT_NULL_NAME); returns ´´is 13´
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>yes, because string-IDs are numbers
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12:45<andythenorth>who is for ?
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: broad audience
12:46<criador15>ok, i have to exit, later i came back, thanks for the help
12:46<andythenorth>is it for contributors arriving at our github?
12:46<+glx>for logging use raw strings, logging is usually for debug only
12:46<andythenorth>or is it the manual that is distributed with binaries?
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>criador15: GSText is for things you want to tell the user, like in a window
12:47<@Alberth>for people arriving at the project and no idea what it's about; it's printed at the front-page of the project
12:47<andythenorth>the binary bundles ship with
12:47<andythenorth>not README.txt
12:48<@Alberth>obviously, nothing stops you from inserting arbitrary text there :)
12:48<andythenorth>can operating systems open .md?
12:48<andythenorth>generally I think they can't
12:48-!-criador15 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:48<+glx>.md is a text file
12:48<andythenorth>yes but not a widely known format
12:48<andythenorth>in my limited experience
12:48<nielsm>random users won't know what to do
12:49<+glx>then OS ask what software you want to use to open it
12:49<@Alberth>yes, some windows will refuse to open it
12:49<andythenorth>afaik macOS has no clue
12:49<nielsm>should something be used to translate it to html for distro?
12:49<nielsm>or rename it to txt in the distro?
12:49<@Alberth>clearly, it's not an apple format :p
12:49<Eddi|zuHause>just call it .txt and have it be secretly a .md file
12:50<andythenorth>in FIRS etc, I think I markdown render my readmes to .txt
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>dunno why we need .md files
12:50*andythenorth checks
12:50<andythenorth>because github
12:50<+glx>grr compile faster, you stupid mingw, I have tests to do
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>moar power!
12:51<@Alberth>more cpus :)
12:51<andythenorth>yeah typically I dump down to .txt in the compile
12:51<@Alberth>a rack full of them
12:51<andythenorth>docs are generated
12:51<+glx>yes I could use -j2
12:51<@Alberth>export MAKFLAGS=-j2
12:51<andythenorth>so how does this do on the 'broad audience' criteria? :)
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>i'm pretty sure i put -j6 somewhere so i don't forget it every time
12:52<+glx>but then it mixes target lines
12:52<andythenorth>"2.2) Reporting desyncs" is ahead of "4.0) Installing and running OpenTTD"
12:52<andythenorth>-j13 ftw :P
12:52<+glx>would be too much for my 6 cores :)
12:52<andythenorth>I only have 4 :P
12:52<andythenorth>it's not science, I just like 13
12:53<TrueBrain>do you understand? :D
12:53<@Alberth>installing is generally too much near the front, in my experience
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>i love programs where i run "program -?" and they don't tell me what the program does
12:54<@Alberth>you must love git then :p
12:55<@Alberth>usually you just get a list of options, no explanation at all
12:55<+glx>hehe generator expressions
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>so i have "export MAKEFLAGS=-j6" in ~/.bashrc
12:55<andythenorth>peter1138: do you have a PR for station catchments? o_O
12:55<TrueBrain>solves that on a stable release we have to make a diff .. now I can just do: cmake .. -DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=Release -DOPTION_USE_ASSERTS=NO
12:55<TrueBrain>and it makes a stable release :)
12:55<+glx>TrueBrain: that one is not too hard
12:55<@Alberth>TB: like magic!
12:56<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: i love that it's not only reverse polish notation, but also uses brackets :p
12:56<TrueBrain>sadly does mean I have to learn the azure-pipeline scripts the difference, but okay :)
12:57<TrueBrain>I should make it OR, don't I ?
12:57<TrueBrain>set(IS_STABLE_RELEASE "$<OR:$<CONFIG:Debug>,$<BOOL:${OPTION_USE_ASSERTS}>>")
12:57<TrueBrain>should be the same ...
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>or is it nonreverse polish notation?
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>i forgot
12:57<TrueBrain>euh, no
12:57<TrueBrain>what-ever, stupid booleans
12:57<andythenorth>so who's going to teach the bundle to render to .txt?
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>one is "AB+" and the other "+AB"
12:57<andythenorth>should I file an issue? :P
12:58<TrueBrain>andythenorth: if the md is not readable as txt, you are doing it wrong
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>instead of "A+B" for normal people
12:58<andythenorth>yeah no
12:58<andythenorth>the convention is readme.txt and has been for like 30 years at least
12:58<andythenorth>so we're doing it wrong :P
12:58<TrueBrain>euh .. welcome to 2019?
12:58<andythenorth>welcome to 'my os can't open .md'
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: by "render" you mean "rename"
12:58<TrueBrain>just because something has been done for N years, does that really mean you have to do it for M more?
12:58<TrueBrain>that is one silly reasoning
12:58<TrueBrain>fuck your OS :P
12:59<TrueBrain>it is your OS that is to blame :)
12:59<andythenorth>.md is a source format, not a consumption format
12:59<andythenorth>it's not for humans to read
12:59<TrueBrain>yes, it is
12:59<TrueBrain>it explicitly is
12:59<TrueBrain>that is the whole point of that language
12:59<nielsm>one of the design goals for markdown is to be readable in the source form
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that attitude is why your code is so unreadable
13:00<TrueBrain>"Markdown syntax is designed to be readable and unobtrusive"
13:00<andythenorth>honestly it's not readable to me
13:00<andythenorth>it's full of computer shit
13:00<andythenorth>the point of readme.txt is to help Bob and Alice
13:00<Xaroth>It's less computery than rst :P
13:00<TrueBrain>I am not sure you are doing it right ;)
13:01<TrueBrain>our old readme.txt had similar constructs to define layout
13:01<andythenorth>that doesn't make it right
13:01<TrueBrain>I am honestly worried if our current cannot be read by Bob or Alice
13:01<TrueBrain>even my mom can understand this
13:01<TrueBrain>(OWH NO HE DIDNT :P)
13:02<Xaroth>You're weird.
13:02<TrueBrain>I rarely fully disagree with you andythenorth; but this is one :)
13:02<TrueBrain>finally, there is something! :D
13:02<andythenorth>oh FFS, now I have to make my Windows VM work
13:02<andythenorth>just to see what MS do with .md
13:02<TrueBrain>who knows; doesn't really matter tbh :)
13:02<pnda>Markdown is cool
13:02<TrueBrain>there are 2 ways the 99% will read the
13:03<andythenorth>wait wat
13:03<TrueBrain>Via the link on the download website:
13:03<andythenorth>expand your argument TB :P
13:03<Xaroth>Just open the .md file with notepad?
13:03<TrueBrain>Via GitHub:
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: uhm, 99% won't ever see the README either in .txt or .md :p
13:03<TrueBrain>andythenorth: I WAS TYPING, ffs :P
13:03<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: I was very careful in what I wrote ;)
13:03<andythenorth>ouch windows doesn't understand my hi-dpi screen?
13:03<pnda>I'd suggest editing the .md file with something like VS Code, because that's got a integrated support for it. Or if you want to view it directly:
13:03<andythenorth>everything is teeeeny
13:03<@Alberth>The only weird thing in that file are the section numbers, I think
13:04<TrueBrain>Alberth: yeah .. that looks really weird
13:04<TrueBrain>and a ToC is also .. not normal
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: even windows 3.1 had a DPI setting
13:04<TrueBrain>anyway, I would consider it highly unlikely someone is going to open the from the bundle itself
13:04<TrueBrain>Windows users install via the .exe
13:04<TrueBrain>Mac run it via the dmg
13:04<pnda>For the download bundle: .txt
13:05<TrueBrain>both won't show the via folder
13:05<pnda>For the github repo: .md
13:05<Xaroth>To be fair, OpenTTD's has a much nicer layout than most project's that you find on github
13:05<TrueBrain>so creating a .txt out of the .md is serving ... 0.01% of our userbase? :P
13:05<TrueBrain>not worth the effort, in my opinion :)
13:05<@Alberth>you might as well render to pdf then
13:05<TrueBrain>PDF would be a better one, yes
13:06<pnda>pdf feels like 1990
13:06<TrueBrain>a .txt feels like BBS
13:06<TrueBrain>1970 called, they are still mad at you
13:06<Eddi|zuHause>we have an ingame readme viewer, but it doesn't show openttd readme, only newgrf readme
13:06<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: ironic :D
13:06<TrueBrain>does it show What's new?
13:06<@peter1138>And it also doesn't know about md :)
13:06<andythenorth>yeah ok, windows wants to go to the windows app store for .md
13:07<pnda>andythenorth: or use VS Code
13:07<Xaroth>.. or just use notepad :P
13:07<andythenorth>or just abandon the game
13:07<TrueBrain>never use notepad
13:07<TrueBrain>burn notepad
13:07<andythenorth>because you can't understand it
13:07<Xaroth>latest win10 update improved notepad
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>notepad is just a horrible program some intern wrote 20 years ago
13:07<TrueBrain>honestly, if you need to read a README before you play a game, I am also a tiny bit worried :D
13:07<Xaroth>it now understands unix/mac newlines
13:08<@Alberth>omg :p
13:08<andythenorth>so wait, who's for again?
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>i think we discussed that topic here
13:08<TrueBrain>its horrible isn't it Alberth? No longer something to bitch about :P
13:08<andythenorth>it's not for a broad audience, because broad audience can't open it
13:08<TrueBrain>andythenorth: you are being silly; sorry, you are :)
13:08<@Alberth>TB: file of 65637 bytes will do :p
13:10<TrueBrain>oeh, and on the plus side, andythenorth, if it is markdown, it can also be put on the website as it (styled and everything! :D)
13:10<+glx>TrueBrain: <-- not too hacky ?
13:11<@Alberth>GH also understands rst I think
13:11<Eddi|zuHause> <-- notepad discussion
13:12<TrueBrain>glx: I still don't know what it solves, so I cannot say anything about it
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you're conflating two things here: "audience for the readme" and "audience for the readme file on the hard disk"
13:13<andythenorth>expand Eddi|zuHause....
13:13<TrueBrain>glx: in all cases, you have to postfix these files with something
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>there's more ways to view the readme than the file on the hard disk
13:13<TrueBrain>empty files that look like generated will confuse the fuck out of people
13:13<andythenorth>I asked what the audience was, and that was too black and white :)
13:13<@LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: actually, i read something about notepad being a testing ground for various things, like the open file dialog
13:13<TrueBrain>glx: so .timestamp postfix or something would go a long way :D
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: honestly, i think the way most people will find the readme is via google
13:14<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: like I said earlier, we should split the two files .. developers and players have nothing in common .. don't put it in a single file
13:14<andythenorth>yes, but what about people who don't have an internet connection
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: that's why we have
13:14<andythenorth>I am not even trolling, having internet is still privileged
13:14<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: no, that is when you want to contribute, which is yet-another-step-further
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: these people will figure out how to view an .md file eventually
13:15<TrueBrain>README -> CONTRIBUTING is mostly the path of a developer
13:15<TrueBrain><nothing> is mostly the path of a player
13:15<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: by visiting the Windows App Store, online?
13:15<andythenorth>because Windows does *not* know how to open .md
13:15<+glx>it solves the "generating table/strings.h" constantly happening after a source file, like english.txt, is modified, but the content of table/strings.h was not modified
13:15<@LordAro>glx: i suspect the circumstances in which such an issue can occur are very limited, even for developers
13:16<TrueBrain>glx: it doesn't happen for me; so I have a hard time understanding :D But I also havent looked into it yet, so .. meh
13:16<@LordAro>except while you're doing cmake stuff
13:16<TrueBrain>while working on cmake itself, you have to accept you are constantly throwing your whole build folder away :P
13:16<TrueBrain>no way around that
13:16<+glx>can happen when switching branches too
13:17<TrueBrain>but okay, we really should make a pass on cmake to simplify it more
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>it reconfigures after switching branches for me, usually
13:17<TrueBrain>it is better to have understandable cmake code, than cover every edge-case tbh
13:18<andythenorth>also can I bonfire small parts of the wiki?
13:19<andythenorth>eh forgiveness > permission
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: there's two kinds of people who need to read the readme. the first is "wtf! this doesn't run!" where the answer is usually "you need to download a base set", and the second is "wtf! this doesn't compile!" to which the answer is "you're missing these libraries:"
13:19<@LordAro>you could probably make a reasonable claim that not touching an unchanged file is a cmake bug
13:19<@LordAro>andythenorth: depends which parts
13:19<TrueBrain>andythenorth: I think here too the suggestion goes: we can debate these things for ever, or we can just move along and do something .. so yeah ..
13:19<TrueBrain>break eggs, who cares
13:19<andythenorth>it has been a while since I was accused of wiki vandalism
13:19<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: and we really really should fix the first category, to automatically fix it, or hint to how to solve it :)
13:20<TrueBrain>the current hint is annoying as fuck
13:20<TrueBrain>as it doesn't help
13:20<TrueBrain>(Basically, it says: RTFM)
13:20<@LordAro>there are definitely some issues with the current bootstrap download
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: then there's fractally more complicated edge cases
13:20<@LordAro>it doesn't seem to trigger as often as it should
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: like every now and then an actual bug happens
13:20<TrueBrain>it starts with searchpaths being silly
13:20<+glx>for table/* files it's not very important, but for squirrel exports it's quickly annoying to get so many "generating hpp.sq" lines even when your are no longer touching that part of the source
13:21<TrueBrain>glx: and this is really needed, I guess we at least should turn it into a macro
13:22<andythenorth>why does github history only go to 2004?
13:22<andythenorth>I was going to lay waste to
13:22<TrueBrain>because ....... git goes only to 2004?
13:22<andythenorth>but it might be really important
13:22<@LordAro>andythenorth: but that's my favourite page
13:22<TrueBrain>blaming GitHub :(
13:22<@LordAro>that's definitely no longer relevant
13:22<@LordAro>...r1 is 2004?
13:22<TrueBrain>andythenorth: you should just have removed it .... I bet he would have never found out :P
13:22<+glx>ah yes the macro is a good idea
13:23<andythenorth>yeah but Github doesn't credit, e.g. RichK67
13:23<TrueBrain>March 2004 I think?
13:23<TrueBrain>he doesn't deserve credit :P
13:23<TrueBrain>Aug 2004 even
13:23<@LordAro>it doesn't credit contributors it doesn't have users for
13:23<TrueBrain>a story of not having backups, and a hosting partner who demanded more money ..
13:23<TrueBrain>it was such a fun story
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13:24<@LordAro>i.e. it doesn't add the raw "users"
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13:24<TrueBrain>owh, I should get some dinner I guess
13:26<TrueBrain>andythenorth: some more serious thought, what would really help for OpenTTD, I think, is if the in the root folder was meant for people visiting GitHub
13:26<TrueBrain>and in docs/ or something we can put one which is meant for bundling
13:26<TrueBrain>as having "compile" instructions in the bundle, is stupid
13:26<TrueBrain>(as ... you literally cannot compile it when you read that :P)
13:27<TrueBrain>so that at least answers who the reader of the is in the root folder of OpenTTD: GitHub visitors :D
13:27<TrueBrain>say the parrot
13:27<@LordAro>what about reading the readme stops you from compiling it?
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>we could easily output a readme.html from the .md?
13:27<@LordAro>TrueBrain: I WAS TYPING
13:27<TrueBrain>LordAro: TYPE FASTER
13:28<+michi_cc>LordAro: A bundle it a release without sources.
13:28<TrueBrain>LordAro: you download the windows .zip
13:28<TrueBrain>you openit
13:28<TrueBrain>you read the README
13:28<TrueBrain>you try to compile it
13:28<@LordAro>but if you have a source bundle...
13:28<TrueBrain>yes; exception for source bundle
13:28<TrueBrain>but that is 1 out of the 12
13:28<TrueBrain>but I agree, there is one exception
13:28<@Alberth>Eddi: yes, all kinds of conversion tools for .md files
13:28<TrueBrain>but the source bundle is easy
13:28<TrueBrain>TAR EVERYTHING
13:28<TrueBrain>so it is not really a "bundle"
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>so, we need,, and a README.html for people who only know how to click on a file
13:29<TrueBrain>but okay, rephrase: BINARY bundle, is stupid
13:29<@LordAro>yeah, could probably be split - the docs foldee is bundled with all releases anyway, right?
13:29<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: docs/, (your, .. would be my suggestion ;)
13:29<TrueBrain>LordAro: no clue
13:29<@LordAro> in a subfolder is silly
13:29<TrueBrain>I know it is amess :P
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: that doesn't sound right
13:29<@LordAro>it'll never be see
13:30<TrueBrain>LordAro: you bundle that to readme.pdf in the bundle ofc!
13:30<TrueBrain>s/bundle/binary bundle/
13:30<TrueBrain>readme is a stupid word ..
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: docs/ should be for development documentation, not for readmes
13:30<TrueBrain>anyway, just remember that GitHub looks for and
13:30<@LordAro>BUILDING is the more common term for build instructions iirc, anyway
13:31<@LordAro>(+ .md)
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: also, WELCOME is a weird name
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>if i'm having install troubles, i'm not going to read a file called WELCOME
13:32<@Alberth>doc.pdf :p
13:32<TrueBrain>docs/ :D
13:32<@LordAro>i don't think a separate welcome doc is necessary
13:32<@LordAro>a paragraph at the top of readme would suffice
13:32<TrueBrain>what you can also dooooooooooo
13:32<TrueBrain>is use doxygen to generate your documentation
13:33<@LordAro>it does need some work
13:33<@LordAro>but sure :p
13:33<TrueBrain>no, not source documentation
13:33<TrueBrain>README, etc, documentation
13:33<TrueBrain>doxygen can process markdown files ;)
13:33<TrueBrain>does a pretty nice job with it, tbh
13:33<@LordAro>exactly :p
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>speaking of doxygen, do we have doxygen output readable anywhere online?
13:33<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: of course
13:33<TrueBrain>any one in specific?
13:34<TrueBrain>or just a random one?
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>preferably the one from the openttd source :p
13:34<TrueBrain>we also have NoAi and NoGS
13:34<TrueBrain>but you are not specific, so I am neither
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>that is a very empty page :)
13:34<TrueBrain>our doxygen is very bad
13:34<TrueBrain>like .. really bad
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>could use a "this is for OpenTTD <version>"
13:35<TrueBrain>but nobody cares .. as you can see :D
13:35<TrueBrain>we do that for NoAI
13:35<TrueBrain>it is injected in Doxygen :P
13:35<TrueBrain>we paid a lot more attention to how that Doxygen produces results
13:35<TrueBrain>as you can see, I hope ;)
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>"The NoAI/OpenTTD trunk revision which matches this documentation is r28004"
13:36<TrueBrain>he is not wrongt
13:36<TrueBrain>it does
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>it's one of those "well, it's technically correct, but pretty useless"
13:37<pnda>Are # comments allowed in NML, yes they are right?
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>pnda: i'm pretty sure they are
13:37<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: yeah. Nobody knows these URLs, so it is useless anyway
13:37<TrueBrain>turns out they are not really linked from anywhere
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: it's not even in the topic
13:37<pnda>Parsing ...?[KIllegal character '#' (character code 0x23) reeeeeeeee
13:38<TrueBrain>so yeah .. a year ago we already noticed it needs a more proper solution
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>pnda: then try //
13:38<TrueBrain>owh, right, food .. I am hungry ..
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13:39<Eddi|zuHause>pnda: is your # at the start of the line?
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>that should work
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>i've definitely compiled nml files which contain #
13:39<pnda>me too
13:40<criador15>in GS this is right? local cargoType = 0; local size = cargoType.len();
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>criador15: that doesn't make any sense
13:40<criador15>len() will return the lenght of size
13:40<andythenorth>nml comments are //
13:40<andythenorth># is python
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: cpp output contains lots of #
13:41<andythenorth>as usual with nml then I have NFI
13:41<andythenorth>but my code is // or /*
13:42<criador15>i want ´size´ have GSText.STR_WELCOME length, but len() return a error
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>both should work, afaik
13:42<criador15>both are comments
13:42<andythenorth>can I be arsed to test it?
13:43<andythenorth>can we burn nml?
13:43<criador15> //, /* */ and #, every language choose your
13:43<andythenorth><!-- -->
13:43<criador15>some even use @
13:43<andythenorth>or <!--! -->
13:43<criador15>that too
13:43<nielsm>or --
13:43<nielsm>or '
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>criador15: if you press ctrl+enter you can have / at the start of the line
13:43<nielsm>or ;
13:44<nielsm>or %
13:44<nielsm>or dnl
13:44<nielsm>or rem
13:44<criador15>Eddi|zuHause what?
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>criador15: in IRC
13:44<nielsm>the number of ways to mark comments in languages is enormous
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>criador15: well, most IRC clients
13:44<criador15>.i use browser
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>try it?
13:45<@LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: depends on the client
13:45<criador15>tried and failed
13:45<@LordAro>i use / /
13:45<criador15>i use //
13:45<pnda>I use //
13:45<criador15>sometimes /* comments here*/
13:46<criador15>how i know the size of this GSText.STR_WELCOME?
13:46<@LordAro>...i think we're talking at cross purposes here
13:46<pnda>I thought the def nml() inside of would be the main part of parsing the nml file. Am I wrong?
13:47<criador15>as always, I tried to create a sign, but I need to check the preconditions
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>so if i read the parser correctly, lines starting with "#" are considered "line directives" (guiding which source file to reference for error handling and stuff), and # is invalid elsewhere
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>so use // comments
13:48<criador15>if i am not confuse, # are used in .bat files too
13:49<pnda>Uhh in, there's result = nml_parser.parse(script, file). It seems to not be parsing that file, rather the file stated in the command line (python nmlc test.nml)
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>i thought bat files was ;
13:49<nielsm>the only official way in msdos batch files has always been "rem"
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>it's been like 20 years since i wrote bat files
13:49<nielsm>but : has been abused for it
13:50<nielsm>since : at the start of a line marks a label for goto commands
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>oh right, : worked (which is jump markers)
13:50<nielsm>but it's not an error to have a label never used
13:50<criador15>you are using assembler?lol
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>pnda: i don't understand what you mean
13:51<criador15>would be cool, but i know you are not
13:52<criador15>nieslm you know how to use the len() method to check GSText.STR sizes?
13:52<criador15>someone know?
13:53<criador15>maybe Alberth?
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>criador15: GSText doesn't know the length
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>GSText is just an ID passed to OpenTTD, so OpenTTD can look up the string from the translation files
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>the length will not be known until that happens
13:54<criador15>i can place a sign using just plain string?
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>because it will be different depending on translation used
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>have you looked at the tutorial?
13:55<criador15>and it never will be translated?
13:57<@LordAro>criador15: it's bad form to randomly highlight random people with random questions
13:57<pnda>I want to test something with NML. I have nml_parser.parse(script, file). That file is a specific file I defined above with file = open("file", "w"). It's still trying to parse the file defined in the command line arguments (python nmlc test.nml)
13:58<andythenorth>TrueBrain: so source for bundled readme.txt in here?
13:58<andythenorth>and it's just a signpost to other places?
13:59<andythenorth>low chance of readme.txt being both (1) comprehensive to all edge cases (2) easy to understand
13:59*andythenorth favours easy to understand
13:59<@Alberth>criador15: addressing me by highlighting means I am to respond. That;s fine for things you want to discuss with me, but it also means all others will often not answer, even if they know the answer
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>pnda: it should be a filename, not a file
14:00<@Alberth>by asking the question in general, you're likely to get an answer faster and more accurately; more people really know more than one
14:00<pnda>oh so just like nml_parser.parse(script, "file.nml")?
14:00<@LordAro>andythenorth: i disagree that there should be a separate and readme.txt
14:01<@LordAro>and it definitely should be a file, due to how GH renders it , and how it actually is very readable
14:01<criador15>i know, but sometimes there is no response, and when this happen i highlight someone i think will know anwers
14:02<pnda>Eddi|zuHause: oh so just like nml_parser.parse(script, "file.nml")?
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14:02<Tony>Hi all
14:02<criador15>GSSign.BuildSign() create a uncloseabe sign?
14:03<criador15>hi o/
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>criador15: you must run BuildSign as the correct company
14:04<@Alberth>IRC is a slow medium, people have the window open while doing other things, they may respond anywhere between immediately and a few hours
14:04<andythenorth>so as usual, we don't know what we want
14:04<andythenorth>which is why docs are already a cluster fuck :)
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>pnda: you could have tried that out instead of waiting if i happen to read the question
14:04<pnda>I tried. Same error
14:05<@Alberth>if you're doing the work, I'd say tou make the choice
14:05<@Alberth>^ andy
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>pnda: i don't know what you're trying to achieve, but you're probably doing it wrong
14:05<pnda>Well, I did try. But it's still trying to read the file from the command line arguments
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>pnda: also, you might be running the wrong nmlc (not the one you modified)
14:05<Tony>Hi pnda
14:05-!-Thedarkb-T60 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:05<pnda>It's definitely the one I modified
14:05<pnda>Hi Tony
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>it most likely is not
14:06<criador15>how build the sign via player company using GS?
14:06<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] gh658804 opened issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry
14:06-!-Tony [~oftc-webi@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>(still RE: the idea of there's a different one in your PATH)
14:06<@Alberth>you switch to that company, then build a sign
14:06<@Alberth>(and then switch back)
14:07<criador15>switch how?
14:07<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] gh658804 commented on issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry
14:07<pnda>In the command line arguments, I define a .nml file, which does have a Syntax error, but I always get that syntax error, but inside the error it says it's the file I defined in the python code.
14:07<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry
14:07<@Alberth>criador15: Ever read the list there?
14:08<criador15>i am with two tabs of the game API open
14:08<criador15>in company there is no method to build sign, only in GSSign
14:08<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] gh658804 commented on issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry
14:08<criador15>and i dont have a current developed AI to switch place with player
14:10<criador15>Alberth yes i read the API
14:10<@Alberth>AIs cannot switch company, GS can
14:10<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] gh658804 commented on issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry
14:11<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry
14:11<criador15>right, which class do it?
14:11<@Alberth>criador15: Well sorry, but I read literally : GSCompanyMode Class to switch the current company and you ask how
14:12<@Alberth>after you switch, everything you do is in that companies name, so if you place a sign, it's like the company placed it
14:13<criador15>so its like control a AIControl, which control the player company?
14:13<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry
14:13<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry
14:13<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] gh658804 commented on issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry
14:14<@Alberth>you are aware that there is also NoAI, for making companies that play the game, right?
14:14<@LordAro> !=
14:14<andythenorth>so what's the readme in GH for?
14:14<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry
14:14<criador15>i am learning with tutorialAI, busybees simple city builder
14:14<@Alberth>those are named "AI", so I am note sure what "AIControl" means here
14:15<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] gh658804 commented on issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry
14:15<@Alberth>andy: Is there a noob manual of some sort?
14:15<criador15>i mean, GSCompany mode is like control a AI, but the ´AI´ its the player company
14:15<pnda>reee I don't get why nmlc is still trying to use the other file
14:15<criador15>noob is way to much
14:16<criador15>i am here for 4 days
14:16<TrueBrain>andythenorth: remember that things like .txt is always fixable. So what the format is, is not much of a discussion
14:16<TrueBrain>we can always convert md to txt
14:16<TrueBrain>we cannot convert txt to md
14:16<andythenorth>yeah, I'm more interested in content at this point
14:16<@Alberth>criador15: it said "andy:"
14:16<TrueBrain>so yeah .. I wouldnt worry too much about how bundles look :)
14:16<TrueBrain>exactly ;)
14:16<TrueBrain>and your ToC looks nice
14:16<TrueBrain>write the words
14:16<TrueBrain>make a PR
14:16<TrueBrain>lets see what happens
14:16<TrueBrain>do what you think is best :)
14:16<@Alberth>criador15: in that case, it's like ai control
14:16<andythenorth>Alberth: the official manual is the wiki
14:17<andythenorth>the wiki is also the official development source
14:17<@LordAro> ?
14:17<andythenorth>except that GH is the official development source
14:17<criador15>okay AFK
14:17<@Alberth>andy: I would say, it's at people visiting GH, which are mostly tech users/devs. You may want to point other users towards documentation such as the wiki near the top of the page
14:17<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] gh658804 commented on issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry
14:18<andythenorth>on this general subject, who is forum mod in development sub-forum?
14:18<andythenorth>oh listed here
14:18<andythenorth>this thread is stickied and is totally wrong
14:19<@Alberth>:o didn't know you could ask that :)
14:19<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry
14:19<@LordAro>andythenorth: i don't see anything very wrong there
14:19<@LordAro>if you have an svn-style patch, that's still the way to do it
14:19<andythenorth>yes, which is wrong
14:20<@LordAro>the topic is literally "how to apply a patch/diff file"
14:20<@LordAro>so no, it's not
14:20<@LordAro>also it does actually mention how to apply git patches, albeit briefly
14:20<@Alberth>how is it wrong?
14:20<andythenorth>it's junk information
14:20<andythenorth>it's of no use
14:20<andythenorth>it wastes people's time
14:20<@Alberth>nodoubt in those days, git/hg was hardly used
14:21<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry
14:21<@LordAro>so unsticky it
14:21<andythenorth>I can't
14:21<@LordAro>but it's not wrong
14:21<andythenorth>no it's wrong that it's pinned, sorry
14:21<TrueBrain>btw, with the website on GH, possibly we can move some of these things (both threads as wiki pages) to the website itself .. might be nicer to reduce the amount of places information is at, or something
14:21<andythenorth>better explanation
14:21<criador15>i made this: local playerCompany = GSCompanyMode(GSCompany.COMPANY_SELF);
14:21<TrueBrain>sticky gone
14:21<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, close as invalid? :p
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i'm pretty sure, yes.
14:22<andythenorth>coding style, still canonical in wiki?
14:22<criador15>but this: playerCompany.BuildSign() may dont work
14:22<andythenorth>yeah wiki is canonical ok
14:22<TrueBrain>I hate mediawiki :P
14:22<TrueBrain>shall we install Confluence?
14:22<TrueBrain>Microsoft Teams?
14:22<@LordAro>i hate those more
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14:23<criador15>discord to what/
14:23<TrueBrain>you can't put these things on Discord you silly goose
14:23<andythenorth>discord is requested btw
14:23<andythenorth>ok forums clean now
14:23<pnda>discord is gud
14:23<criador15>what about a custom site?
14:23<andythenorth>one less source of nonsense
14:23<pnda>You can put these things on discord, if you really want to
14:24<criador15>everything you want, and they alow
14:24<andythenorth>TrueBrain: I hate mediawiki, but this is fine and nice, no?
14:24<TrueBrain>can a duck fit in a square? Sure, it can .. but do you want to? :P
14:24<@LordAro>i have absolutely no issues with mediawiki, fwiw
14:24<TrueBrain>andythenorth: no .. but I am also not interested to show other ways of doing it, so I am not going to bother :P
14:24<@Alberth>duck may object too :)
14:24<@LordAro>it's definitely the best at being a wiki
14:24<andythenorth>oh wiki link to translator 404s
14:24<pnda>or you could have a implementation of the wiki to discord with a bot for example
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14:25<andythenorth>dunno if I can edit wiki sidebar
14:25<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] gh658804 commented on issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry
14:25<@LordAro>pnda: that sentence barely even makes sense
14:25<TrueBrain>LordAro: but what ever definition of "best" :D
14:25<@LordAro>andythenorth: it's just a page somewhere, you should be able to
14:25<pnda>meh, it does kinda
14:25<criador15>i dont know how to use GSCompanymode
14:25<@LordAro>TrueBrain: "at being a wiki"
14:25<TrueBrain>never tried the GH Wiki .. never saw it used
14:25<TrueBrain>LordAro: yes, I was not debating that part of your statement. I was what you consider "best" :D
14:25<TrueBrain>as best is optimized to something ;)
14:26<TrueBrain>best at looking fugly
14:26<TrueBrain>best at making administrators live horrible
14:26<TrueBrain>those are also "best" :D
14:26<@LordAro>that's because it's an ancient version of mediawiki
14:26<TrueBrain>people keep saying that
14:26<@LordAro>there have been 2 different default style sheets since then
14:26<TrueBrain>people keep saying they are going to upgrade it :P
14:26<@Alberth>best at being random collection of stuff
14:26<andythenorth>I can't figure out how to edit wiki sidebar
14:26<andythenorth>'WebTranslator' is 404
14:27<TrueBrain>so possibly LordAro we have to adjust your definition: "our" mediawiki is not the best wiki out there :P
14:27<@LordAro>TrueBrain: that's fair :p
14:27<TrueBrain>\o/ :D
14:27<TrueBrain>what I really dislike about wiki, that changes, even to pages like Coding Style, can go completely unchecked
14:27<TrueBrain>so I am never sure what I read is true
14:27<@LordAro>it might be protected
14:28<@LordAro>that's so much a non-statement. everything's like that, from comments to code itself
14:29<TrueBrain>andythenorth: I see nothing wrong in the sidebar?
14:29<andythenorth>click 'Web Translator'
14:29<TrueBrain>LordAro: that is simply not true. All our code is reviewed
14:29<pnda>I cba editing nml anymore. I don't see why this doesn't work like I want it to
14:29<TrueBrain>at least 1 other person agreed with you
14:29<andythenorth>I'm fixing that sidebar
14:29<TrueBrain>so the chances of it being correct, is so much higher
14:29<TrueBrain>andythenorth: reload the page silly
14:29<@LordAro>TrueBrain: it is now, sure, but things can still get missed (the various html pages are the obvious example)
14:30<TrueBrain>LordAro: as the component of feeling being watched, helps with the quality
14:30<andythenorth>ok fixed
14:30<TrueBrain>I read so many untrue statements on our wiki, that I simply stopped reading it
14:30<andythenorth>how much else in the wiki can be 'fixed' that way?
14:30<andythenorth>i.e. delete hammer
14:30<andythenorth>"The graphics section is where artists, NewGRF engine coders, and other graphics related developers collaborate on graphics development. Find out about the latest developments in base graphics, NewGrfs (both 8bpp and 32bpp) and more. "
14:30<andythenorth>that's complete crap ^
14:31<TrueBrain>LordAro: but okay, let me rephrase: on a wiki I never know if it *once* was true
14:32<andythenorth>I would like to set the wiki free
14:32<TrueBrain>guess I don't have faith in our anonymous contributors :D
14:32<andythenorth>it would be much better if the wiki wasn't even *supposed* to be true
14:32<andythenorth>or useful
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: so turn the wiki over to the website, and all changes must be audited through github PRs?
14:32<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: if I had the time, with some pages, I would
14:32<TrueBrain>well . time .. interest ..
14:32<TrueBrain>take your pick
14:33<@LordAro>TrueBrain: in newer versions of mediawiki, there is a concept of "patrolling", where edits need to be reviewed before being shown
14:33<TrueBrain>LordAro: so PRs for wiki? :D
14:33<@LordAro>more or less, yes :p
14:33<@LordAro>it can be applied on a per-page basis
14:33<pnda>can I trigger a cmd command within a python script?
14:33<andythenorth>where is it hosted?
14:33<andythenorth>sometimes, it's really helpful
14:33<TrueBrain>where is what hosted? :P
14:34<andythenorth>the wiki
14:34<TrueBrain>our wiki? on our infrastructure of course
14:34<andythenorth>sometimes, the best progress comes if a server dies, and it turns out there were no backups
14:34<TrueBrain>forum is the only one we are not in control of
14:34<TrueBrain>I can arrange that
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: sadly, we have backups since 2004 :p
14:34<andythenorth>maybe they're not restorable?
14:34<@LordAro>i don't think that's a very productive attitude
14:34<TrueBrain>no, I dont mind the wiki. I mind that some key pages are .. just idling there, possibly being correct
14:34<@LordAro>every wiki has its outdated parts
14:35<@LordAro>complaining about them is just a waste of time
14:35<andythenorth>let fans make a wikia
14:35<@LordAro>fix them, or shut up
14:35<andythenorth>like they do for other games
14:35<@LordAro>andythenorth: ...or a wiki
14:35<@Alberth>it's worse, we have pages "archived" for preserving hisotry
14:35<TrueBrain>andythenorth: I guess that is somewhat what my issue is. A wiki should be by the users, and don't contain any important information for development on its own
14:35<@Alberth>eg early the 32bpp stuff iirc
14:36<@LordAro>wikia is absolutely no different to a mediawiki instance, except there's absolutely no (guarantee of) official management
14:36<@LordAro>so the issue is even worse
14:36<@LordAro>and full of spam
14:36<andythenorth>no that's better
14:36<andythenorth>it's not in uncanny valley
14:36<TrueBrain>I wonder how some wikis have their quality so high
14:36<TrueBrain>never really looked into it, I have to say
14:37<TrueBrain>gamepedia is also a wiki, I assume?
14:37<criador15>what about take the useful and true information of the wiki and bring it to the forum in the help section?
14:37<TrueBrain> <- it is scary how correct the information there always is
14:38<TrueBrain>guess the same goes as for forums ... without good moderation, your content is shit
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: that also has its outdated parts
14:38<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: outdated I noticed, but rarely wrong
14:39<@peter1138>Oo, it compiled.
14:39<criador15>what about take the useful and true information of the wiki and bring it to the forum in the help section?
14:39<+glx>[19:21:42] <criador15> i made this: local playerCompany = GSCompanyMode(GSCompany.COMPANY_SELF); <-- COMPANY_SELF is OWNER_DEITY for GS, you need to use a real company value
14:39<@peter1138>With newgrf_dock.cpp :p
14:39<andythenorth>peter1138: \o/
14:39<criador15>and how they say wait for it broke?
14:39<andythenorth>criador15: forum is even worse than wiki :)
14:39<@LordAro>TrueBrain: i'm not aware that that's any different from our wiki
14:39<@peter1138>andythenorth, now I need to borrow the UI
14:39<@LordAro>"outdated but rarely wrong"
14:39<@peter1138>and, er, make a NewGRF?
14:40<andythenorth>then $somebody needs to patch nml
14:40<andythenorth>and the docs
14:40<TrueBrain>LordAro: meh. You should open these things like Blackbook and what did they call it ..
14:40<TrueBrain>even when written, they were not true
14:40<TrueBrain>I am mostly wondering what it takes to make a wiki work
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: i imagine poe has a much larger player base, so there likely is a tighter core group trying to weed out misinformation
14:40<andythenorth>I concluded that I will die not knowing that TrueBrain
14:41<andythenorth>it's an unknowable
14:41<criador15>interest people
14:41<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: I guess that can be true
14:41<@LordAro>TrueBrain: the blackbook section should probably be removed, i'll grant you
14:41<@peter1138>TrueBrain, sit down and rewrite everything yourself, basically.
14:41<andythenorth>but seriously
14:41<andythenorth>^ that should die
14:41<andythenorth>oh yeah, you mentione the black book, wtf even is that?
14:42<TrueBrain>it was an ill attempt years ago to create a "development" section
14:42<TrueBrain>it was a big hit back than
14:42<TrueBrain>and someone ran with it
14:42<TrueBrain>believe it was when namespaces were just introduced
14:42<andythenorth>I am going scorched earth
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: there's another tipping point when you get to the size of wikipedia, where the core group is like "we assume everything worthwile is already included, so new entries must by default be irrelevant"
14:42<andythenorth>I will also save things tthat need moved to our own docs in .md
14:42<andythenorth>so this, kill?
14:42<andythenorth>in fact, I just kill things
14:43<TrueBrain>there is a lot of shadow-bookkeeping :D
14:43<andythenorth> < you can see what I do there, revert if you disagree tbh
14:43<criador15>this looks like the developers task list
14:43<andythenorth>it's bollocks
14:43<andythenorth>nobody cares about it :)
14:44<criador15>let it burn
14:44<andythenorth>how do I just delete a page?
14:44<criador15>you have to use FTP
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you should rewrite that page detailing how we use github, and prepare searches for tickets with tags like "good first issue"
14:44<TrueBrain>owh, right, we also have translations on wiki
14:44<andythenorth>oh I can't edit
14:44<TrueBrain>did that ever became a thing?
14:44<andythenorth>I don't have permissions
14:45<@LordAro>TrueBrain: very much so
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: i'm pretty sure translations exist
14:45<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: TBH that sounds like more work
14:45<andythenorth>and more maintenance
14:45<andythenorth>why don't we stop laying traps for future us?
14:45<criador15>laying traps is fun
14:45<andythenorth>the only reason someone finds this page is because google indexes it because we put supposedly useful info on it
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the point of that would be that people can get an overview, without having actual data on the wiki that needs maintained
14:45<TrueBrain>LordAro: for OpenTTD, I meant ofc
14:46<@LordAro>TrueBrain: for the wiki? yes
14:46<andythenorth>but if we stop creating junk and spam, google will index the relevant maintained pages
14:46<TrueBrain>never understood how you keep translations up-to-date :)
14:46<andythenorth>instead of the fake ones
14:46<@LordAro>i'd say >75% of the pages are translations
14:46<TrueBrain>but it is nice if it is used :)
14:46<@LordAro>TrueBrain: up to the translator usually
14:46<andythenorth>can someone increase my wiki privileges?
14:46<@LordAro>just like all other translations
14:47<TrueBrain>yeah yeah andythenorth, was already doing that :P
14:47<TrueBrain>just takes for ever to login
14:47<andythenorth>thx :)
14:47<TrueBrain>and find the things to change
14:47<andythenorth>apparently that's something we're working on
14:47<andythenorth>seriously, fuck wikis
14:47<andythenorth>they're too cheap to add to
14:47<andythenorth>and too expensive to maintain
14:48<criador15>what i pass here GSCompanyMode::GSCompanyMode()?
14:48<TrueBrain>andythenorth: you have all the power you can ever need
14:48<TrueBrain>don't abuse it plz :P
14:48<andythenorth>there's always undo
14:49<TrueBrain>well .. you can press buttons that don't havei undo :P
14:49<criador15>yeah, like born
14:49<TrueBrain>wait, this should be enough
14:49<TrueBrain>you might have to relog btw
14:50<criador15>like ctrl+s and alt+f4
14:51<TrueBrain> <- what is the language 'mp' doing there?
14:51<@LordAro>TrueBrain: "main page in the current language", i think
14:52<TrueBrain>it looks very odd
14:52<@LordAro>it does
14:52<andythenorth>hmm deleting is rocket science
14:52<andythenorth>there's no button for it
14:52<TrueBrain>which page?
14:53<andythenorth>media wiki docs say I need to be sysop
14:53<Wolf01>Don't delete wiki pagess, redirect
14:53<TrueBrain>press the down arrow
14:53<TrueBrain>you do? Hmm
14:53<criador15>make a deleted page, and redirect all to it
14:53<andythenorth>seems like you all know more about wikis than me
14:53<TrueBrain>andythenorth: so now you don't have any more excuses
14:53<andythenorth>I just want to draw trains tbh, but eh
14:54<andythenorth>work has to be done first
14:54<TrueBrain>you see the dropdown now?
14:54<andythenorth>TrueBrain: no
14:54<@peter1138>18:53 < andythenorth> I just want to draw trains tbh, but eh
14:54<TrueBrain>logout + login?
14:54<andythenorth>I logged out and in
14:54<@peter1138>You are basically procrastinating...
14:55<andythenorth>I am basically trying to find a solution to why nml docs are shit
14:55<andythenorth>as I have to write some
14:55<andythenorth>and I hate the current set up
14:55<TrueBrain>you should see that
14:56<TrueBrain>its hidden as ....
14:57<TrueBrain>before you hit edit
14:57<TrueBrain>go back one page
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14:58<andythenorth>where do you change my setttings?
14:58<TrueBrain>you have a different style .. :o
14:58<andythenorth>isn't the wiki user database quite broken>?
14:58<andythenorth>maybe that was newgrf wiki
14:59<criador15>maybe you are using mods
14:59<criador15>hey, there are less language options now
15:00<criador15>before was 5, now 2 plus mp
15:01<TrueBrain>andythenorth: meh, seems LDAP is cached
15:01<criador15>someone can help me with GSCompanyMode?
15:02<criador15>local playerCompany = GSCompanyMode(0); this dont work
15:02<TrueBrain>I could manually add you
15:02<TrueBrain>mediawiki and ldap integration
15:02<TrueBrain>it is hilarious
15:02<TrueBrain>try now andythenorth
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15:03<criador15>bye alberth o/
15:03<andythenorth>TrueBrain: \o/
15:04<criador15>whoa whoa whoa! looks the magic
15:04<criador15>nostalig <3
15:07<andythenorth>anyone know how to redirect a wiki page?
15:07<@LordAro>andythenorth: ...why have you created a "Deleted" page?
15:07<@LordAro>that's not how this works at all
15:07<andythenorth>trying to learn to wiki
15:07<@LordAro>don't do that
15:07<TrueBrain>stop saying what not to do, start saying what to do :)
15:07<@LordAro>if you want to delete something, delete it
15:08<andythenorth>yeah it was suggested I don't
15:08<andythenorth>and mediwiki suggest I should move it to Deleted
15:08<criador15>its better redirect than a broken link
15:08<@LordAro>but it's something like #REDIRECT some_page, i think
15:08<@LordAro>criador15: if something is being deleted, it shouldn't have any broken links
15:08<criador15>thats not how links works
15:09<TrueBrain>andythenorth: if the chief says to delete it, delete it :P
15:09<criador15>wiki have 404 pages too
15:09<@LordAro>sorry, if something is being deleted, it shouldn't have any links to be broken
15:09<andythenorth>do we have a copy-paste bock for deprecation warnings?
15:09<andythenorth>like a 'this is all out of date'
15:09<andythenorth>red block or something
15:09<@LordAro>there is a template somewhere, iirc
15:10<@LordAro>Template:Outdated, in fact
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15:11<TrueBrain>just delete that page
15:11<TrueBrain>10 years out of date ..
15:12<TrueBrain>good way to test if that keeps history or not :P
15:12<@LordAro> this too
15:12<@LordAro>in fact, start by going through
15:12<andythenorth>we have a UI style guide
15:12<@LordAro>(there are lots of helpful links in )
15:12<andythenorth>I bet that's been used at least once
15:13<TrueBrain>what a shitty pages, those deleted pages
15:13<andythenorth>eh this is great
15:13<andythenorth>also this
15:14<andythenorth>yeah actually I now regret this a bit
15:14<andythenorth>as always in a project
15:14<@LordAro>listing pages isn't all that helpful
15:14<andythenorth>I agree
15:15<andythenorth>I am a bit lost now, there is so much stuff here
15:15<andythenorth>and presumably lots of people find it really useful?
15:15<andythenorth>like, is this how you all learnt to develop?
15:16<@LordAro>there are definitely useful pages in there
15:16<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TheHendla commented on issue #6682: menu bars disappear if enable windows screen scaling on high dpi monitors
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15:19<andythenorth>what is this?
15:19<andythenorth>nope wrong link
15:19<andythenorth>that was instead of svn?
15:19<TrueBrain>that is freaking old :D
15:19<TrueBrain>haha, that still exists? Holy crap
15:20<@LordAro>well it doesn't load
15:20<TrueBrain>back in the old old old old OLD days, the way to inform people on IRC about SubVersion commits
15:20<@LordAro>did 2 concurrent users kill it?
15:20<TrueBrain>was via CIA (really terrible name)
15:20<TrueBrain>it was really popular
15:20<TrueBrain>like ... every IRC channel that did development had CIA-1..9 in there
15:20<andythenorth>yeah look
15:20<TrueBrain>but .. it broke .. and nobody was home
15:20<andythenorth>I can clean up the simple stuff
15:20<andythenorth>but this black book
15:20<TrueBrain>so .. we wrote DorpsGek
15:21<TrueBrain>that is the story of CIA :)
15:21<andythenorth>do we know how many visits a wiki page gets?
15:21<@peter1138>How do I make a UI? :(
15:21<TrueBrain>you can see the unique hits andythenorth :)
15:21<andythenorth>if that black book is our main development docs, then it needs to be preserved
15:21<andythenorth>handy that
15:21<@peter1138>Cool, I'll ignore that :D
15:21<@peter1138>Since OpenTTD is a game of the 1990s, it should also have that look and feel.
15:22<andythenorth>if you'd like some compiling tools
15:22<@peter1138>LordAro, lol NWidgetTree
15:22<@LordAro>andythenorth: that page can go
15:22<@peter1138>Okay but I've just downloaded a C172 bushkit, so I might go flying.
15:22<@peter1138>I think the UseWindows one can too
15:22<andythenorth>LordAro: delete, or redirect, or deprecate?
15:23<@LordAro>possibly redirect to Compiling ?
15:24<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
15:24<andythenorth>5000 visits
15:25<@LordAro> every single one of these can be deleted
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15:25<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7165: [core] Implement SmallVector using std::vector
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15:25<TrueBrain>LordAro: you can now do that yourself :D
15:26<TrueBrain> <- can we remove that too? :P
15:26<@peter1138>Is the std::vector stuff in a usable state?
15:26<TrueBrain>LordAro: yeah, you telling someone else what to remove didn't sound productive, so I thought, I can fix that :)
15:26<@LordAro>TrueBrain: :)
15:27<@LordAro>peter1138: it's pretty much ready to merge, not including existing comments
15:28*andythenorth deleting categories
15:28<@LordAro>ok, i shall delete the unused templates :)
15:28<@peter1138>Quick question, is any part of NewGRF stations relevant to bus/truck stops, docks and airports?
15:29<+michi_cc>It would make some sense to have development related info (Coding style, commit style, whatever) on GitHub. I don't really know all the GitHub stuff though, no clue if GitHub Wiki, Pages or whatever there else is, is the right solution.
15:29<@peter1138>I notice that airports have their own airport spec and airport tile spec.
15:29<@peter1138>I'm thinking about renaming the newgrf station stuff to refer to trains explicitly.
15:29<TrueBrain>michi_cc: that is possible. Question is, do we want that many places information is at. Possibly it is also good to have in the repository itself? But yeah .. something like that would be good in my opinion too :)
15:30<@peter1138>But for now I'll just work on docks :p
15:30<TrueBrain>trying to download ICC is fun
15:30<+michi_cc>If we don't but it visible on GitHub, we'd need a bug link to the wiki. I don't think you can assume somebody looking on GH to contribute will know to search the wiki for the coding style.
15:31<andythenorth>TrueBrain: michi_cc I am thinking that a set of simple .md docs for development is useful
15:31<andythenorth>ideally rendered to html
15:31<@LordAro>TrueBrain: i can't seem to delete anything still - only got Move & Watch in my dropdown. I have logged out and in again (twice)
15:31<+michi_cc>Subtract the typos from the last message.
15:31<TrueBrain>LordAro: LordAro is your username, not?
15:31<TrueBrain>michi_cc: now I have an empty message :P (j/k)
15:32<TrueBrain>LordAro: try again
15:32<@LordAro>though i think it's "Lord Aro" in the LDAP side, if that complicates things
15:32<TrueBrain>LDAP syncs are .. weird
15:32<TrueBrain>LordAro: spaces are not possible, so no :P
15:33<@LordAro>TrueBrain: no dice
15:35<TrueBrain>I hate mediawiki ... :( (sorry, but it is horrible to maintain)
15:35<TrueBrain>I add you, you disapear
15:35<TrueBrain>I mean .. wtf
15:36<TrueBrain>I added you AGAIN
15:36<TrueBrain>see if it sticks this time
15:36<TrueBrain>dont relog
15:36<TrueBrain>just use it :P
15:36<@LordAro>TrueBrain: aha
15:36<@LordAro>what happens if i relog? :p
15:36<TrueBrain>till the next sync, you lose your rights again
15:36<TrueBrain>seems the LDAP is cached, for .... N time
15:37<andythenorth>presumably, this is more accurate than github releases?
15:38<@LordAro>andythenorth: i think it summarises releases quite well
15:38<andythenorth>it doesn't involve clicking 'next' in GH tedious release page
15:38<@LordAro>GH releases are all split into betas, RCs, etc
15:38<TrueBrain>I like how 1.8.0 doesnt have a page :P
15:38<@LordAro>and summarises features
15:38<andythenorth>fuck me, who wastes their life doing this?
15:39<@LordAro>and the changelog is there to see
15:39<andythenorth>one of my kids watches a youtuber who just reads out the minecraft changelog
15:39<@LordAro>andythenorth: you say such hurtful things
15:39<andythenorth>if I'm in the room I make him turn it off
15:39<@LordAro>oh ok, 1.7.2 wasn't me
15:39<@LordAro>carry on
15:39<TrueBrain>I like how people also do that with details of resource
15:39<TrueBrain>especially with games like SpaceEngineers
15:39<TrueBrain>like .. I CAN READ FFS :P
15:40<andythenorth>it's a safe way of contributing
15:40<andythenorth>I once had an employee who manually recreated an auto-generated page
15:40<andythenorth>and was upset when I said it was a waste of time
15:40<andythenorth>because of the work that had been put in
15:40<TrueBrain>*installs Linux ICC .. gets .cab files ...*
15:41<TrueBrain>there is no executable here ... wuth?
15:42<andythenorth>oof I'm not going and manually removing all those stupid release pages :)
15:42<@LordAro>why do you want to?
15:44<andythenorth>because it's junk
15:44<andythenorth>anyway, if we can get our info out of the wiki
15:44<andythenorth>I can ignore the junk
15:44<@LordAro>it summarises releases
15:44<@LordAro>nothing else does that
15:45<andythenorth>I refer to this :)
15:45<andythenorth>which is a copy-paste of the changelog
15:45<@LordAro>summarises features, links to bug reports, groups betas, RCs & releases together
15:45<andythenorth>it's teaching the wrong behaviours
15:46<TrueBrain>"Download size 4237 MB."
15:46<TrueBrain>holy crap
15:46<TrueBrain>I just want icc ..
15:46<andythenorth>we shouldn't be encouraging manual replication of the changelog, waste of life
15:46<andythenorth>we have
15:46<andythenorth>but eh
15:46<TrueBrain>but the style! THE STYLE!
15:46<@peter1138>We have git log :p
15:47<@LordAro>andythenorth: maybe i'm not being blunt enough
15:47<@LordAro>i created most of these pages
15:47<@LordAro>i don't want them deleted :p
15:47<@LordAro>(well, created or standardised)
15:48<@peter1138>andythenorth, draw some docks or something
15:49<@peter1138>That was quick but...
15:49<andythenorth>you want better? :P
15:49<TrueBrain>kill one's darlings
15:49<TrueBrain>(idiomatic) To destroy, especially with conflicted motives, things or persons of which one is fond.
15:50<TrueBrain>I like it reads "or persons" :D
15:50<andythenorth>I love nothing more than deleting my own work
15:50<andythenorth>it's almost like I was waiting for you
15:51<andythenorth>someone made a really nice docks grf somewhere in forums
15:51*andythenorth looks
15:52<andythenorth>second link better
15:52<@peter1138>chips custom docks.
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15:53*andythenorth wonders if paul would make a test newgrf for peter1138 :P
15:53<@peter1138>Set via parameters, I guess?
15:53<andythenorth>LordAro: basically if we can make this simple and accurate
15:54<andythenorth>I will stop proposing deleting your work :)
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15:56<criador15>someone can test this to me? local playerCompany = GSCompanyMode(GSCompany.COMPANY_SELF); GSSign.BuildSign(signLocation,"Welcome to PROGRESSIVE MODE");
15:57<criador15>with the respectives params:(GSCompany.COMPANY_SELF,GSCompany.COMPANY_FIRST,GSCompany.COMPANY_INVALID,0) and tell which display a sign via the player company?
15:57<criador15>here none of them made it
15:57<criador15>(show a sign as the GS)
15:59<andythenorth>these are the objectives for OpenTTD
15:59<andythenorth>but they're not the official objectives
16:00<andythenorth>the official objectives are
16:00<TrueBrain>wow .... that is one vague "vision"
16:00<andythenorth>this is probably fine
16:00<andythenorth>I really like the official objectives
16:00<criador15>sounds like will have a nds version
16:00<andythenorth>TB, actually having general objectives means we can say 'no war newgrfs'
16:00<@peter1138>Shit, I forgot. I can't add newgrf docks :(
16:00<andythenorth>but they could just be in the official
16:00<andythenorth>peter1138: :(
16:00<@peter1138>We can't just add things any more.
16:01<@peter1138>It has to be in a vision.
16:01<criador15>so wount be mad max new grf?
16:01<criador15>would not*
16:03<pnda>For C++, I can't get my Include Directory to work correctly. I have it set to $Tool\Includes\;, where the .h file is I want to include, but it can apparently not be found. What am I doing wrong?
16:07<andythenorth>have I upset LordAro :(
16:09<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone opened pull request #7382: Fix: Fix company performance rating calculation.
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i know the solution. we need a BIG project manager
16:11<@LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: TrueBrain in all caps?
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16:20<criador15>unescessary highlight bro
16:21<andythenorth>pop quiz
16:21<andythenorth>how much of this should be in docs in openttd or website repo?
16:21<andythenorth>probably .md, and rendered to html, but format is secondary
16:21<Wolf01>The official objective is only one: remove anything from the game so it can be added back with grfs
16:21<andythenorth>Wolf01: nice try :)
16:21<andythenorth>no cigar though
16:22<@peter1138>No, we need to replace NewGRF with something(tm)
16:22<andythenorth>replace it with NewGRF
16:22<andythenorth>how about replacing v8 with v9?
16:22<@peter1138>And remove all the backwards compatibility.
16:22<@peter1138>Because who needs old NewGRFs?
16:23<@peter1138>I have an issue.
16:23<andythenorth>tell us
16:23<@peter1138>I have no whisky :(
16:23<andythenorth>do you have wine?
16:23<criador15>we have cachaça, acept?
16:23<@peter1138>I do have wine. Hmm.
16:23<andythenorth>issue deferred
16:24<@peter1138>Hmm, should I finish off the white that's in the fridge?
16:24<@peter1138>Probably a good idea.
16:24<criador15>drink water
16:24<@peter1138>Although it's a £3.50 bottle from Aldi.
16:24<criador15>its more wealth
16:24<criador15>lol man, wine here is more or less 3 times
16:25<@peter1138>Hmm, newobjects seem to be either on land or on water, but not both.
16:25<TrueBrain>whoho, cmake also works with Intel compiler :)
16:25<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #7382: Fix: Fix company performance rating calculation.
16:26<criador15>why the hovercrafts act like boats in game instead of airplanes?
16:26<@peter1138>Because they are ships, not airplanes.
16:26<criador15>but they run over earth
16:26<criador15>thats not fair with the ship
16:26<@peter1138>Do aircraft do that?
16:26<TrueBrain>CMakeFiles/openttd.dir/src/saveload/afterload.cpp.o: In function `AfterLoadGame()':
16:26<TrueBrain>afterload.cpp:(.text+0x6b50): undefined reference to `int GetAircraftFlightLevel<Aircraft>(Aircraft*, bool)'
16:26<@peter1138>I thought aircraft flew.
16:27<andythenorth>any opinions on?
16:27<andythenorth>there are multiple ways to do docs these days
16:27<andythenorth>that is one of them
16:27<criador15>they could do itself
16:27<@LordAro>andythenorth: we have doxygen for such things
16:27<andythenorth>not in nml
16:27<criador15>no one wold complain
16:27<andythenorth>and some other places
16:27<@LordAro>andythenorth: ah, NML
16:27<@LordAro>yeah, it's probably not too bad for that
16:27<@LordAro>GH integration too, right?
16:28<andythenorth> ideally, a generalised approach to docs would be better
16:28<andythenorth>less thinking, less debate
16:28<@peter1138>Docs just need *writing*
16:28<@peter1138>Less faffing about with where it will live.
16:28<@LordAro>also that
16:28<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #7382: Fix: Fix company performance rating calculation.
16:28<@LordAro>bikeshedding is strong today
16:28<andythenorth>yeah I am +1 to that, but I am figuring out how they connect up
16:29<@peter1138>I'm thinking the orientation stuff in newobjects is just a faff that docks shouldn't deal with.
16:29<andythenorth>if I just start moving bits of wiki to website, someone is going to say 'you have no plan'
16:29<@peter1138>They're either on a slope, or not.
16:29<andythenorth>and if I make a plan, it's bikeshedding :)
16:29<andythenorth>open source lolz
16:29<andythenorth>peter1138: sounds right
16:30<@peter1138>A dock on water is no longer water, I guess.
16:30<andythenorth>the nice thing about the website is that we can update general-pupose docs without doing an OpenTTD release
16:30<@peter1138>(But can be drawn with water)
16:30<andythenorth>yeah, just draw the water tile
16:30<andythenorth>I do that in FIRS somehow
16:30<@peter1138>So, draw the tile.
16:31<@peter1138>Let varactions test for adjacent docking tiles.
16:31<TrueBrain>we muted 18 warnings with icc that are no longer needed :D
16:31<TrueBrain>we cleaned up our code pretty nice
16:31<criador15><@peter1138> A dock on water is no longer water, I guess. press X and discover
16:31<@LordAro>TrueBrain: :)
16:31<@peter1138>Maybe have a property that says "this adjacent tile isn't our docking tile"
16:31<@peter1138>criador15, it's MP_STATION, not MP_WATER.
16:32<TrueBrain>now for the linker error
16:32<criador15>you are talking about in game things, right?
16:34<+glx>internally yes
16:34<criador15>can someone please take a look on this? local playerCompany = GSCompanyMode(GSCompany.COMPANY_SELF);
16:34*andythenorth starts jekyll locally :P
16:34<TrueBrain>LordAro: any idea what that linker error is I showed a bit earlier? (GetAircraftFlightLevel) .. I don't understand the code, but also not the error :(
16:34<+glx>you just need to pass a valid company id criador15
16:35<criador15>yeah, but GSCompany.COMPANY_SELF is not valid, neither GSCompany.COMPANY_FIRST, neither 0
16:35<criador15>neither GSCompany.COMPANY_INVALID
16:35<+glx>0 should if there's a player
16:35<criador15>and peter1138 transparency settings make the station disapear
16:35<criador15>but not worked glx
16:37<@LordAro>TrueBrain: looks like it's not got a definition for GetAircraftFlightLevel
16:37<+glx>the usual usage is
16:37<+glx><GS stuff>
16:37<+glx> local mode = GSCompanyMode(<company_id>);
16:37<+glx> <things to do as company_id>
16:37<+glx><other GS stuff>
16:38<+glx>same for test mode
16:38<@LordAro>i'm not sure how, perhaps it's not (properly) compiling aircraft_cmd.cpp ?
16:38<criador15>none of them worked here
16:38<TrueBrain>I wonder if master works for ICC :P
16:38<criador15>not work local playerCompany = GSCompanyMode(GSCompany.COMPANY_SELF); GSSign.BuildSign(signLocation,"Welcome to PROGRESSIVE MODE");
16:38<criador15>nope too local playerCompany = GSCompanyMode(GSCompany.COMPANY_FIRST);
16:39<@LordAro>TrueBrain: hmm, that call does use template type inference
16:39<criador15>with 0, not work too
16:39<@LordAro>try changing the call in afterload.cpp to GetAircraftFlightLevel<Aircraft>(v)
16:39<TrueBrain>its really not-so-nice-to-follow code tbh
16:40<andythenorth>if you were familiar with C++, but new to OpenTTD
16:40<TrueBrain>LordAro: no change
16:40<andythenorth>which .cpp files are best entry points to understand game structure?
16:40<@LordAro>dunno then
16:40<+glx>criador15: it should work
16:40<criador15>but its not
16:40<+glx>unless signLocatation is an invalid tileindex
16:40<criador15>precondition error
16:40<criador15>is valid, i checked
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16:42<+glx>oh it's a constructor, maybe need <-
16:42<+glx>I don't remember the squirrel syntax
16:42<TrueBrain>LordAro: master is also broken
16:42<criador15>playerCompany <- GSCompanyMode(0);?
16:43<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
16:44<TrueBrain>either way ... rest is in working order, so I am going to assume here it would link fine if not for this one thingy :)
16:44<TrueBrain>if I could understand how this template was used ... I might try to fix it .. but ... a templated function that is not explicit defined, but implicit used from places, in the hope it exists, or something ... I dunno
16:44<TrueBrain>my head hurts no :P
16:44<+glx>well forget the <- it's for tables
16:46<criador15>all code
16:46<criador15>look for the ´trouble´ word
16:49<@peter1138>Hmm, right, UI.
16:50<+glx>ha yes don't do anything with playerCompany
16:50<TrueBrain>LordAro: all usages of <Aircraft> are in static functions in aircraft_cmd.cpp
16:50<TrueBrain>that seems to be the issue here
16:50<criador15>why not?
16:50<+glx>it's a scope variable
16:51<TrueBrain>hahahaha, I forgot I had Allegro installed
16:51<TrueBrain>I run OpenTTD from CLI
16:51<TrueBrain>and it starts
16:51<criador15>one line up please
16:52<criador15>this line is to display it when you run the game
16:52<andythenorth>hmm if the website was GitHub pages, I could publish html previews of it from my fork on GH
16:52<+glx>enclose line 23 to 25 in { }
16:52<andythenorth>oh I could just do that manually, too
16:52<+glx>because you are changing companymode for all the script right now
16:53<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code)
16:53<TrueBrain>LordAro: <- worth making a PR out of that? Or is this solution stupid?
16:53<@peter1138>TrueBrain, useful
16:53<@peter1138>(allegro that is)
16:54<@peter1138>Doesn't that defeat the point of templates?
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16:54<@peter1138>Or is it a static-template thing. Hmm.
16:54<criador15>i want just to make a sign using player company
16:54<TrueBrain>it is not a class template
16:54<TrueBrain>it is a function template
16:54<TrueBrain>no clue how you call them
16:54<TrueBrain>never used them :D
16:55<criador15>how i do that glx?
16:55<+glx>and you are already GSCompany.COMPANY_SELF so you are not really changing mode
16:55<TrueBrain>the implementation is in a .cpp file .. it is a bit weird code ..
16:55<@LordAro>20:40:20 < andythenorth> which .cpp files are best entry points to understand game structure?
16:56<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #7383: Codechange: fix Intel C++ Compiler linking issues.
16:56<andythenorth>thanks, you saved me a trip to google :)
16:56<TrueBrain>there, a PR; if this solution sucks, I am open for other suggestions :)
16:56<@LordAro>i could've sworn i've mentioned this page before, but it doesn't appear in my logs at all
16:56<nielsm>linked from the forum
16:57<andythenorth>have we html archived that page?
16:57<andythenorth>in case it goes away
16:57<andythenorth>he has a 'just take my work' attitude
16:57<+glx>criador15: as I said enclose GSCompanyMode() line and GSSign line in { } and use the player id
16:57<andythenorth>someone got a site sucker?
16:58<criador15>like GSCompanyMode{script here}?
16:58<criador15>like GSCompanyMode(){script here}?*
16:58<@LordAro>TrueBrain: curious.
16:58<+glx>no { local variable = GSCompanyMode(); GSSign... }
16:59<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #7383: Codechange: fix Intel C++ Compiler linking issues.
16:59<+glx>and allowed values are from 0 to 15
17:00<+michi_cc>criador15: You might also need some Sleep call. Game scripts start during world generation where companies might not yet exists. See the example GS ( for detailed comments.
17:01<andythenorth>well you'll have to read the html
17:01<andythenorth>unless I make the weird github pages branch
17:01<andythenorth>and manually update it :P
17:01<TrueBrain>LordAro: I can't really explain it
17:01<TrueBrain>which annoys me :D
17:02<TrueBrain>I also dont know how long ago someone tried Intel Compiler :D
17:03<@LordAro>TrueBrain: hmm, maybe if GetAircraftFlightLevel isn't being instantiated outside of that cpp/object file, as its only used in static functions
17:03<TrueBrain>that is ... exactly what I say ...
17:03<TrueBrain>but it has always been like that
17:03<andythenorth>oof I'm pushing a jekyll site to GH
17:03<TrueBrain>so either icc is broken since 2014
17:03<+michi_cc>andythenorth: That site is a nice read, but he somewhat misses the point but looking a lot at pools, core/*.hpp and other files, but nothing at all about anything that comes close to gameplay.
17:03<TrueBrain>or I am missing something
17:03<andythenorth>how hard can it be to publish GH pages?
17:04<andythenorth>michi_cc: any bids on anything better? :)
17:04<@LordAro>TrueBrain: slight differences in how ICC generates object files, probably
17:04<criador15>glx function ProgressiveMode::Modal(text,signLocation){ this.Sleep(100); local playerCompany = GSCompanyMode(GSCompany.COMPANY_SELF); GSSign.BuildSign(signLocation,text); GSLog.Info(GSError.GetLastErrorString()); }
17:04<TrueBrain>well, did my best explaining what I think happens in the commit :D
17:04<TrueBrain>(which you clearly hadnt read yet :P :P)
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17:05<+glx>criador15: COMPANY_SELF is not valid there
17:05<@LordAro>TrueBrain: nope!
17:06<criador15>i put 1 and it still not valid
17:06<+glx>first company is 0
17:07<criador15>if i am using multiplayer, should use what?
17:07<+glx>but GS can already build it's own signs
17:07<+glx>no need to impersonate a company for that
17:08<criador15>but i cannot delete it
17:09<criador15>and the player cannot too
17:09<+glx>hmm the GS should be able to delete its own signs
17:09<criador15>yep, but i want player input using signs
17:10<criador15>thanks man, its working
17:10<nielsm>you don't need to act as a company to read others' signs
17:10<+glx>ah ok so use the company_id of the player you want to communicate to
17:10<criador15>but need to remove it
17:11<criador15>like the Beginner_Tutorial__Game_Script use
17:11<criador15>or maybe i am confuse about the GS
17:12<@peter1138>criador15, you can delete anyone's signs.
17:12<andythenorth>hmm, maye I need an ftp site :P
17:12<@peter1138>Nobody needs FTP.
17:13<criador15>filezilla should be useful
17:13<TrueBrain>cool, CMake can even generate NSIS and deb ... source tarballs .. rpm ..
17:13<TrueBrain>the list is long
17:13<TrueBrain>did not know
17:13<andythenorth>well I have used GH pages
17:13<andythenorth>it's gone well
17:14<criador15>peter1138 i want to use sign as player input, and the player can only remove the sign it placed
17:14<andythenorth>I could open a port on my router and let you look at my site from my laptop :P
17:15<criador15>best no
17:15<criador15>upload it on a free hosting site and then close when you done
17:16<criador15>disable ctrl keys input and mouse right click, and toolbar and the save site function and you will be okay
17:16<criador15>in resume, dont do that is more secure
17:18<criador15>how i know vehicle types?
17:18<criador15>the data, airplane data type, trains , bus and ships?
17:18<+glx>ok using a macro for the timestamp thing is not that easy, cmake_parse_arguments merges all command lines
17:20<andythenorth>this page lists dependencies and their download sites
17:20<andythenorth>is that still relevant?
17:20<andythenorth>under "Compiling"
17:21<TrueBrain>missing allegro and fluidsynth
17:24<andythenorth>but we'd keep this in repo docs?
17:24<andythenorth>it goes out with specific releases?
17:24<andythenorth>the website page I'm making basically points to other locations
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17:27<@LordAro>it's quite common for project websites to list their dependencies
17:27<@LordAro>i don't have an issue with it
17:28<@peter1138>Normal and correct.
17:30<andythenorth>is it needed to do it twice though?
17:30<andythenorth>is my question
17:30<@LordAro>one is before you decide to download it, the other after
17:30<andythenorth>because duplicating information manually is good?
17:31<@LordAro>how would you suggest automating it?
17:31<@LordAro>i can't see a way that's not TMWFTLB
17:31<andythenorth><a href="">Dependencies</a>
17:31<@peter1138>Then link to that from the website.
17:31<TrueBrain>wow, the CPack stuff is really good .. we only have this extra step in NSIS where it auto-downloads some dependencies .. that won't work .. :(
17:31<andythenorth>or so
17:31<+glx>oh I just need to insert a marker between each "COMMAND" and the stuff following it
17:32*andythenorth wonders if we can teach GH Pages to actually do something useful
17:33<TrueBrain>can I bribe someone to move the NSIS auto-download stuff into the game, that on first start it auto-downloads those? :D
17:34<@peter1138>It kinda does anyway, no?
17:34<TrueBrain>kinda .. the NSIS supports a few more
17:34<@peter1138>few more whats?
17:34<@peter1138>Oh, different locations.
17:34<TrueBrain>lol, I cannot run the setup because I have a newer version
17:34<TrueBrain>cant even downgrade via .exe
17:35<TrueBrain>peter1138: OpenSFX and OpenMSX
17:35<andythenorth>how do I fork OpenTTD again?
17:35<@peter1138>Oh, well you can download them in game, but yeah...
17:35<andythenorth>I'm only allowed one fork
17:36<@peter1138>Why do you need another fork?
17:36<andythenorth>sock puppet account?
17:36<andythenorth>because GH pages is a twat
17:36<@peter1138>But why?
17:36<andythenorth>it only publishes from master
17:37<TrueBrain>peter1138: guess if we can let NSIS do by CMake, it is kinda worth it .. and a good look at our bootstrap code won't hurt either .. meh, I will toy a bit :)
17:37<TrueBrain>but that might mean we can automate releases even further
17:37<TrueBrain>no more bumping silly files
17:38<TrueBrain>just .. based on tag ... MAGIC
17:41<TrueBrain>right, off to bed for me
17:43<andythenorth>ok publishing from existing /docs
17:44<andythenorth>so that could be an index of
17:44<andythenorth>which could be manually maintained for now
17:45<@peter1138>Your own master doesn't have to track OpenTTD's master.
17:46<andythenorth>apaprently not
17:46<andythenorth>means if I make branches from my master, I'm going to make a shit PR eventually
17:46<andythenorth>but that's fixable
17:47<andythenorth>ok so we _could_ publish our docs folder as html more like this. file:///Users/andy2/workspace/OpenTTD.andythenorth/docs/index.html
17:47<andythenorth>like this
17:48<andythenorth>which means it would be versioned and in sync with development
17:49<andythenorth>nml could do similar
17:50<andythenorth>I'm sure there's a way to do it also involving Jekyll
17:50<andythenorth>but I'm buggered if I can figure out how
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17:51<criador15>arrays in squirrel are equals to in java unless for the type?
17:52<criador15>(there is something like ArrayList in squirrel?)
17:58<andythenorth>should known_bugs.txt and friends be in /docs ?
17:58*andythenorth curious
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18:06<supermop_Home>I cant decide if I want to buy some kind of dongle to plug my monitor into this usb c hole on my surface book, or just buy a new monitor
18:06<supermop_Home>andythenorth what kind of monitor do you have
18:07<andythenorth>I don't
18:07<andythenorth>I live my life inside 13" screen
18:07<andythenorth>I do a lot of window switching :P
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18:10<criador15>why i never use this : GSCompany.COMPANY_SELF with sucess? it always fails
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18:16<andythenorth>lol remember when we had 900 open issues in FS? :D
18:16<andythenorth>happy times
18:23<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN approved pull request #7383: Codechange: fix Intel C++ Compiler linking issues.
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19:16<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone opened pull request #7384: Add: Display tooltips on industry chains window even when "Show toolt…
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20:53<Samu>hmm my ai crashed
20:55<Samu>for some reason, some orders became invalid
20:55<Samu>service at depot turned invalid, how could that happen?
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21:02<Samu>how do orders to depot turn invalid?
21:02<Samu>must think
21:03<@peter1138>Depot removed.
21:09<Samu>hmm, I schedule removals for later
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21:19<Samu>nah, it wasn't the removal, i actually have a depot here but no vehicle going to it
21:19<Samu>how come
21:20<Samu>I always have vehicles heading to depots in the orders
21:20<Samu>somehow, the order did exist, but turned invalid... must understand why
21:21<Samu>depot exists in the route, I see it
21:44<@peter1138>Yes, but.
21:48<Samu>hmm i notice my code has some missing returns...
21:48<Samu>but still doesnt explain these invalid depot orders
21:57<Samu>I don't reuse depots, when I schedule a depot for later removal, and i build a new route, there is no way I would be removing the wrong depot
21:59<Samu>first, it would still exist
21:59<Samu>the new depot would go to a different tile
22:00<Samu>if the depot is removed meanwhile, it is also cleared from the removal list
22:00<Samu>nah, it's not the removing scheduler
22:00<Samu>it's something else
22:22<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN opened pull request #7385: Fix: NewGRF feature cleanup.
22:26<Samu>i dont know what happened :(
22:26<Samu>too bad this is online, i can't restart game
22:26<Samu>would like to replay the game
22:27<Samu>i've hear of that elusive replay network game feature, but never tried
22:28<Samu>"depot removed"
22:28<Samu>somebody flooded them?
22:28<Samu>makes no sense
22:35<Samu>im gonna try avoid removing depots which have vehicles heading to them, but i still doubt it's the scheduler
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23:28<Samu>cargodist is really weird at times
23:28<Samu>it is able to make my buses have a -£11,000 profit last year
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---Logclosed Mon Mar 18 00:00:17 2019