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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-03-20

---Logopened Wed Mar 20 00:00:20 2019
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00:11<Samu>i give up for today, will try again tomorrow
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02:33<andythenorth>zellepins tho Pikka
02:33<Pikka>are they?
02:34<andythenorth>they are
02:34<andythenorth>I should play a game
02:34<andythenorth>but FIRS :P
02:35<andythenorth>I should fix FIRS
02:35<andythenorth>so I can zellepins
02:40<Pikka>is FIRS broken?
02:42<andythenorth>16-cargo feature
02:42<andythenorth>FIRS assumed 3 in, 2 out
02:43<andythenorth>it assumed it with prejudice :P
02:46<andythenorth>scrabble then?
02:47<Pikka>or civi, or something
02:47<andythenorth>what you really need is the ability to run 16 AI
02:47<andythenorth>as a spectator
02:47<andythenorth>bad andythenorth
02:48<andythenorth>and after that...a GS pikka? o_O
02:48<@peter1138>Low polygon pixels.
02:48<andythenorth>what's it called?
02:48<Pikka>after ukrs3, scrabble, landscape, etc :)
02:49<andythenorth>but UKRS 3 + group liveries :)
02:49<andythenorth>what will you do with the 3rd Company Colour we're going to add
02:49<Pikka>I'm actually putting 2cc on surprisingly little. I might have to go back and add some more...
02:50<andythenorth>peter1138: I had a stupid idea
02:50<@peter1138>That surprises me.
02:50<andythenorth>well the day name ends in 'y'
02:50<andythenorth>I only do it then
02:51<andythenorth>so, at least in photoshop, you can load an abitrary palette file, without forcing the image to indexed
02:51<andythenorth>so I wondered about defining a 256 + 256 colour palette, and using 32bpp
02:51<andythenorth>256 regular colours
02:52<andythenorth>256 for water cycle, fire, 1CC, 2CC, 3CC, flashing lights
02:52<andythenorth>oh and the night cycle that needs adding
02:52<andythenorth>keeps the 8bpp style, but not the technical implementation
02:52<andythenorth>"that's really stupid andythenorth"
02:53<@peter1138>You can't redefine the palette animcation cycle colours, but the rest is fine.
02:54<@peter1138>It makes it incompatible with RGB company colours though.
02:54<andythenorth>what are those pinks about also?
02:55<andythenorth>there are 13 of them
02:55<andythenorth>same colour value, but different indexes
02:58<@peter1138>Well... nobody knows.
02:59<andythenorth>3CC :P
02:59<andythenorth>and 5 for luck
02:59<@peter1138>day/night cycle
03:00<@peter1138>That is why I mentioned it, yes :p
03:00<andythenorth>yes I have been watching that thread but not replying
03:01<andythenorth>so automatic recolour, or layers?
03:09<@peter1138>For which?
03:09<@peter1138>Day/night or 3CC?
03:09<@peter1138>(Why would you even need 3CC? o_O)
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03:10<@peter1138>Is it because I haven't done variants yet?
03:12<andythenorth>layers for day night
03:12<andythenorth>dunno why I'd need 3CC
03:12<andythenorth>it's mostly for lolz
03:12<andythenorth>I'd have to redraw everything
03:13<@peter1138>You'll need to to fit in with TaI32.
03:13<andythenorth>oh I remember, it's 1990s trains
03:13<@peter1138>1990s? Oh I see. Realism.
03:14<@peter1138>Livery labels.
03:23<andythenorth>hmm, rgba can do semi-opaque?
03:23*andythenorth designs headlight beams
03:24<@peter1138>Yes but no.
03:25<andythenorth>extra vehicle on the front
03:25<andythenorth>headlights go round corners
03:34<@peter1138>Like some kind of Citroen from the 60s.
03:42<andythenorth>my van does it
03:42<andythenorth>bit weird
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04:34<Beerbelott>About that DOS tests of the most recent OpenTTD which proved to be run incredibly slowly
04:34<Beerbelott>Wasn't the original OpenTTD exploiting mechanisms which have since been fixed?
04:34<Beerbelott>Reading that made me think of it:
04:35<Beerbelott>Sometimes improving coding wreak havoc in backwards-compatibility tests or performances optimization
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05:41<@peter1138>Beerbelott, biggest issue is nobody used or tested it for nearly a decade, so regressions could be anywhere, or indeed nothing to do with our code. But no, OpenTTD never exploited undefined behaviour.
06:11<@LordAro>peter1138: wasn't there something about 2d graphics performance which has slowly decreased though?
06:19<@peter1138>Well we default to 32bpp now, because modern OSes don't support switching to 8bpp nicely.
06:19<@peter1138>And 32bpp mode forces software palette animation, obviously.
06:20<@peter1138>But unless you ran OpenTTD in full-on fullscreen mode, that was always the case.
06:21<@peter1138>OpenTTD uses more memory due to 4x and 2x zoom levels. They are pre-scaled, so use up 21x more memory. This is why there's a max zoom level setting.
06:22<@peter1138>It's possible that tweaking these settings would make the DOS port run at 'normal' speed but nobody bothered to test it.
06:22<@peter1138>And it's gone now :-)
06:24<Beerbelott>It's 'gone'?
06:28<@peter1138> < last commit
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07:55<Beerbelott>There's indeed no vision
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07:56<@peter1138>Was that a rage quit?
08:07<m3henry>I've address all the change requests in #7165, but Github says I still have some to do :s
08:29<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN closed issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry
08:29<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry
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08:40<@LordAro>i wonder whether anything is actually better served by the suggestions forum
08:43<@peter1138>I believe that's our policy at the moment.
08:43<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry
08:44<_dp_>suggestions forum feels like openttd equivalent of /dev/null
08:45<andythenorth>that's the correct destination for most suggestions
08:45<andythenorth>they're not a pot of gold that needs to be preserved
08:45<andythenorth>but they do show themes
08:45<_dp_>yeah, like wtf, ppl send trains with wagons for some cargo to a station providing that cargo with load order and want it not to load
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08:58<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] gh658804 commented on issue #7381: Problem with stations and nearby industry
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09:11<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: it's a problem with defaults. if you have more than one set of trains, and a change like this occurs (accidental extension of catchment area, or random industry construction, or something) you need to change every single train order, instead of setting a toggle at the station
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09:23<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, I just use "unload all no loading" on all one-way trains
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: yeah, but you're not the base line here.
09:24<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, as for defaults it's unclear what is better as there are plenty situations when current defaults work fine
09:24<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, mb something like "if unloaded no loading" would be a better default but idk
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: "most people" will just use "go to A" and "go to B"
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: and then retroactively changing that is... cumbersome
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>plus, you first need to understand why it's not working when it worked in the other 99 cases before
09:25<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, yeah, but what do you suggest as default then? train doesn't even know what is it supposed to do on a station by default
09:25<@peter1138>Can we retroactively remove the shitty default airports?
09:26<@peter1138>I guess make them an settings option for savegame compatibility :/
09:26<@peter1138>Just leave the original defaults.
09:26<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: make new statemachines and a bit of fixup code?
09:26<@peter1138>We have newgrf airport layouts already
09:26<Eddi|zuHause>but no newgrf statemachines
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>which IIRC wasn't a "we can't do it" problem, but a "we don't know how to provide a useful programming interface"
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09:30<andythenorth>we could have better airports? :o
09:30<andythenorth>where the bigger ones aren't lower rate than the smaller ones? :O
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>no, because that's not a vision
09:35<@peter1138>varaction 2 statemachines?
09:35<@LordAro>also determining whether newgrf airports can deadlock requires solving the halting problem
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i've not really followed it, but i had the impression it was going to be action 0
09:35<@peter1138>I don't know where it got.
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>there might also have been multiple competing ideas
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>there might also have been a problem with some random guy coming in and shouting state machines for road every now and then
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09:46<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: do you have a vision for a vision?
09:48<Eddi|zuHause>(do you think it's funny how two people can put the same words in the same order, and yet mean completely different things?)
09:48<planetmaker>but seems the conclusion "everyone his own pony no matter what" is the mantra to go for.
09:48<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: that's not what we were saying
09:49<planetmaker>you basically were saying "no, I don't want to have a big picture, I want features"
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>you were basically saying "i don't have a vision either, but let's just remove old things and see if one appears"
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>and frankly, that is a thing that could endanger the whole project, stagnant or not
09:50<planetmaker>I were not
09:50<planetmaker>And actually it just happens. Like removing dos support
09:51<Eddi|zuHause>it happens, but it needs to be justified, and not by a "all old things are automatically bad" attitude
09:52<planetmaker>I don't argue that nor did I
09:52<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you didn't say it, but it's certainly what arrived at the other end
09:53<planetmaker>that's what you seem to want to understand for convenience reasons. that's my impression. And it avoids actual discussion of what way things could be improved
09:53<planetmaker>and how. Especially how
09:53<planetmaker>so the "discussion" is not worth its name.
09:54<planetmaker>because of "oh, don't change anything existing"
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>but the "how" is exactly the problem. you came along here with a strong attitude "we need a vision", but yet you haven't brought up any vision yourself
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>it's not about what you were saying at all, but more about the attitude that came across
09:54<planetmaker>and you came here like "oh, no change at all, just don't start any talk without presenting a 20-page paper"
09:55<planetmaker>which is also about the attitude
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09:55<planetmaker>thus the argument falls right on your feet
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>maybe, but you were in the position of the outsider/newcomer in that discussion
09:56<planetmaker>not engaging in constructive, but destructive feedback
09:56<planetmaker>of course
09:56<planetmaker>how convenient
09:56<Eddi|zuHause>which means by default that you need the stronger argument
09:56<Eddi|zuHause>to change the status quo
09:56<Eddi|zuHause>the status quo is always reluctant to change
09:57<planetmaker>The status quo is also change. Just not in any coordinated way
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09:57<planetmaker>I'm advocating to get some more coherency into it. Or at least enable people to easier get an overview
09:58<planetmaker>Status quo actually is quite heavy change. Just random walks here and there. As everyone implements his or own ponies.
09:58<planetmaker>Which is fine. But doesn't help which ponies to go for when in doubt
10:00<Eddi|zuHause>a "status quo" in the most general sense is always some semi-stable "everything just fell into place" state, where you need a lot of momentum to get out of
10:00<Eddi|zuHause>and the argument you were providing was aiming at getting out of that state, but didn't provide enough momentum
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>so it detoriated
10:01<planetmaker>And exactly that is not the case currently. Things are drifting this and that way. Without any thought of where to go
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>that's all true. but things don't change by just stating true things.
10:02<planetmaker>Nor do they by just saying "fine, do it" and throwing rocks and block stones whereever possible. So you clearly don't want anything to change nor even bother to think about what would be useful / sensible
10:03<planetmaker>no argument can beat that complacency
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10:04<Eddi|zuHause>not "no argument". just not your argument.
10:04<planetmaker>what is your argument?
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>i don't have an argument.
10:05<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7225: Add: Various AI/GS functions that may be useful.
10:05<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on issue #7095: NoAI - add function to set company colour
10:05<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN closed issue #7095: NoAI - add function to set company colour
10:06<@peter1138>Well that didn't auto-close :/
10:06<planetmaker> PeterN referenced this issue 26 days ago
10:06<planetmaker>not 30 days ago
10:07<Eddi|zuHause>it wasn't part of the commit message?
10:07<@peter1138>Tends to work when it's referenced in the PR, guess it wasn't.
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know how github does it. the thing i was using a few years ago worked by scanning commit messages for "fix #blah"
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10:32<@peter1138>I wonder where the discussions for state machines were?
10:32<@peter1138>Cos richk's default airports are still biting us.
10:32<@peter1138>And also, what about the airport sets that exist? Do they just not work?
10:33<planetmaker>Is there more than one airport set?
10:33<planetmaker>(other than simple sprite replacement)
10:33<@peter1138>Probably not :-)
10:34<planetmaker>ogfx+airports has its own layouts - but it is quite constrained in what it can choose as the aircraft paths cannot change
10:36<planetmaker>as to the statemachine discussion: I'd search for yexo's attempts... no idea when though
10:38<planetmaker> hm
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10:51<andythenorth>gravedig all that :)
10:55<andythenorth>oof drama :)
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10:56<@peter1138>Hmm, so ships need state machines as well, eh?
10:57<@peter1138>That seems like a gameplay vs realism thing for ships, for sure.
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11:05<andythenorth>didn't you just add state machines for ships peter1138 ?
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11:05<andythenorth>it's done, no?
11:28<planetmaker>some year on 7th June was a discussion about state machines
11:28<planetmaker>dunno which year :P
11:29<planetmaker>February 24th
11:33<@peter1138>That's a funny year.
11:33<planetmaker>the 24th February is any year after that
11:33<planetmaker>my logs don't have years in the lines
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11:34<@peter1138>andythenorth, no, no state machines.
11:34<planetmaker>@commit 22633
11:34<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
11:34<planetmaker>@commit r22633
11:35<planetmaker>did I kill it?
11:36<@peter1138>I suspect that no longer works.
11:37<@peter1138>andythenorth, do I need to do that?
11:37<@peter1138>I'm not sure...
11:37<@peter1138>State for ships is... "are we at a docking point"
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11:38<@peter1138>Newgrf docks are currently just tile graphics. Just eye-candy.
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12:11<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #7390: Remove: ENABLE_NETWORK switch
12:11<TrueBrain>it was no fun to make, pretty sure it is no fun to review :)
12:15<andythenorth>peter1138: you made ships turn and stuff, instead of reversing, that's enough state handling :P
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12:42<Samu_> why!!
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12:50<Samu_>I don't get it
12:50<Samu_>I still don't get this
12:51<Samu_>the depot exists in an earlier date
12:51<Samu_>and still exists after the orders are turned invalid, same construction date, I didn't delete it
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12:53<Samu_>road vehicle 1150 is of interest
12:55<Samu_>I have no idea what causes it, I don't know how to debug this, need help
12:59<Samu_>im starting to think this is a bug in openttd itself
12:59<Samu_>not my ai
12:59<Samu_>i really don't know though
12:59<@peter1138>Do other AIs get it?
12:59<Samu_>no, not that I'm aware
12:59<@peter1138>Share your AI again, unless it's the bananas one :)
13:00<Samu_>it happens on the bananas one too
13:00<@peter1138>And we can see about adding that missing event.
13:01<Samu_>but if you want my current testing version, it's on my github
13:01<Samu_>changelog says it fixed the bug, but it didn't
13:02<Samu_>and it's so rare
13:02<Samu_>i started game in 1935
13:02<Samu_>took about 55 years for it to happen
13:05<Samu_>there is a mass replace happening in 1987
13:05<Samu_>hereford leopard to foster bus
13:06<Samu_>the groups become empty, or nearly empty
13:06<Samu_>they're all moved to group 3 temporarily
13:06<Samu_>then the mass replacement happens
13:07<Samu_>and they're moved back to their original groups
13:07<Samu_>maybe there is something flawed happening during this transtition
13:13<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone updated pull request #7384: Add: Display tooltips on industry chains window even when "Show toolt…
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13:24<Samu_>mass replacement went through fine, no problems yet
13:24<Samu_>I'm 2 years away from the problem
13:24<Samu_>nothing suspicious atm
13:26<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone commented on pull request #7384: Fix: Display tooltips on industry chains window even when "Show toolt…
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13:56<Samu_>random isn't really deterministic at times
13:57<Samu_>in one game, a town is named Little Sunton, in the other, the same town with the same houses and roads in the same places, is called Sennbury
13:59<@peter1138>Well, groups don't affect orders.
13:59<@peter1138>But replacement might.
14:02<+glx>Samu_: but they should get the same name
14:03<Samu_>damn it, break causes desyncs?
14:04<Samu_>omg, damn it, i missed it!
14:04<Samu_>it happened earlier, this thing isn't in sync
14:05<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN updated pull request #7380: Feature: Multi-tile docks.
14:06<Samu_>can't reproduce this reliably
14:06<Samu_>wasted 3 hours for nothing
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14:07<Samu_>break on influences deterministic somehow
14:07<Samu_>things went different after a break
14:11<@peter1138>debugging break?
14:11<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7390: Remove: ENABLE_NETWORK switch
14:14<Samu_>i think i got a savegame where it is reproducible
14:14<Samu_>finally I'm getting somewhere
14:15<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7390: Remove: ENABLE_NETWORK switch
14:15<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stale[bot] commented on pull request #7158: Add: Client setting gui.start_spectator
14:15<@peter1138>96 files
14:20<Samu_>this makes no sense, the depot orders turn invalid while I'm the middle of an airport construction
14:21<Samu_>this is a bug in openttd
14:21<Samu_>can't be any other way
14:21<+glx>removed airport and rebuilding it ?
14:22<Samu_>i'm in test mode
14:22<Samu_>does that count?
14:22<Samu_>checking for places where to build airport
14:24<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #7390: Remove: ENABLE_NETWORK switch
14:24<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #7390: Remove: ENABLE_NETWORK switch
14:25<TrueBrain>tnx LordAro
14:25<TrueBrain>whoho! More old shit gone :D
14:26<Samu_>it's not even close to where the road vehicle depot is located
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14:27<+glx>TrueBrain: <-- cleaner way I think
14:28<TrueBrain>glx: wrong cmake file for sure :D
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14:28<+glx>not sure about the functions names
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14:30<Samu_>finally getting somewhere
14:30<Samu_>when the heliport is placed
14:30<Samu_>the depot orders of road vehicles become invalid
14:30<Samu_>this is very... fishy
14:30<TrueBrain>glx: I would postfix the original function name
14:30<TrueBrain>a lot more clear, I think
14:31<TrueBrain>or something
14:31<Samu_>sounds like something I've done
14:31<TrueBrain>or: safe_add_custom_target
14:31<TrueBrain>but changing the original name is confusing
14:32<Samu_>was my invalidate order patch accepted in master?
14:32<Samu_>sounds to be the cause
14:32<TrueBrain>I feel it is weird this is needed glx :P You would think others have solved it
14:32<Samu_>still, weird that road vehicles get affected
14:33<+glx>every where I see the suggestion to do it by hand
14:35<@peter1138>Mountain biking tongiht.
14:35<Samu_> is this in RC1 ?
14:36<Samu_>I suspect this is where the bug comes from
14:37<Samu_>RemoveOrderFromAllVehicles(OT_GOTO_DEPOT, st->index, true);
14:37<Samu_>this is picking up road vehicles apparently
14:37<andythenorth>peter1138: any mountains near you? o_O
14:37<+glx>merged 22 days ago, definitely in 1.9.0
14:38<Samu_>gonna try revert
14:38<Samu_>and test without it
14:42<Samu_>terrible coincidence if it's really this, I caused it
14:43<TrueBrain>literally on that URL is the tag of which release it is in .. how can that be a question?! :P
14:45<Samu_>but the patch is mine, all mine, It's entirely my fault
14:46<andythenorth>TrueBrain: is today Arbitrary Artefact Publishing Day? Or is it just Wednesday? :D
14:47<TrueBrain>andythenorth: one way to fix your github issue with Jekyll btw is to attach a custom domain to it
14:47<TrueBrain>we can do that this weekend or something
14:48<andythenorth>I am curious about the more general solution
14:48<TrueBrain>for what?
14:48<andythenorth>or if it's not general, solving each case
14:48*andythenorth made a list
14:48<andythenorth>it's not very long
14:48<TrueBrain>that's what she said
14:48<andythenorth>fart jokes also
14:49<andythenorth>general case is: publishing artefacts from CI, with some kind of VCS rev, or tag; including html pages which should be browser-viewable
14:50<andythenorth>things that need this
14:50<andythenorth>- newgrf docs
14:50<andythenorth>- newgrfs
14:50<andythenorth>- potentially OpenTTD docs
14:50<andythenorth>- NoGo and NoAI are already doing this?
14:50<TrueBrain>the above, I was only talking about you wanted to toy with the OpenTTD website ;) That we can solve with a custom domain, as only the path is incorrect :P
14:50<andythenorth>- coop bundles already does this
14:51<andythenorth>yeah I nearly bought a domain to fix it :P
14:51<andythenorth>then I didn't
14:51<Samu_>m2 contains the station ID or depot ID right?
14:51<TrueBrain>can be :P
14:51<andythenorth>well maybe
14:51<andythenorth>it would help get the website redesign done :)
14:51<Samu_>well, station ID is 0x28, depot ID is also 0x28...
14:51<TrueBrain>exactly; so I can do that this weekend
14:51<TrueBrain>that should be easy
14:51<TrueBrain>about the other docs .. havent thought about it yet
14:52<TrueBrain>a list is nice, shows the things we need to consider
14:52<TrueBrain>still think DO Spaces are the best place
14:52<andythenorth>I have thought about it in terms of general problem
14:52<TrueBrain>need to figure out a safe way to use them
14:52<andythenorth>rather than the usual approach everyone does, of [named tech]
14:52<andythenorth>coop bundles totally solved this already, it's just not necessarily infra we'd want to reuse
14:52<andythenorth>afaict, problem condenses to
14:53<andythenorth>- storing auth creds safely in Azure Pipelines, maybe with traceability and revokeability (optional)
14:53<andythenorth>- directory listings, and serving html
14:53<TrueBrain>Spaces, like S3 buckets, don't really allow dir listing
14:53<andythenorth>I _think_ that's it, but I'm not very smart, so eh
14:54<TrueBrain>storing the creds is not the real issue here
14:54<TrueBrain>distributing them in a way I am not involved is :)
14:54<TrueBrain>we can also just pay for a persistent storage disc, and sync that to the CDN
14:54<andythenorth>I am currently really missing that I no longer own any webservers
14:55<TrueBrain>I think that costs $0.10/GB per month
14:55<TrueBrain>so that is crazy cheap
14:55<andythenorth>we used to have a static server with ftp / sftp
14:55<andythenorth>but we deleted it like 12 years ago
14:55<andythenorth>or more
14:55<andythenorth>things changed :P
14:55<andythenorth>we = me :P
14:56<TrueBrain>but okay, I will check what you want and what we have this weekend or so
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14:57<andythenorth>TrueBrain: thx
14:58<andythenorth>once we have a destination
14:58<andythenorth>$someone can decide if nml docs are going to sphinx, or jekyll, or our own .md compile or whatever
14:58<andythenorth>and then me and Alberth will start moving them
14:58<andythenorth>and then someone can point out we're fragmenting them away from the newgrf wiki and it's all terrible
14:59<andythenorth>because there's always a good reason not to improve anything :P
15:00<@Alberth>:o we had to wait for permission? wasn't aware of that
15:00<andythenorth>no we'll do it first :P
15:01<andythenorth>then we'll get blamed :P
15:01<@Alberth>phew :)
15:02<@Alberth>todays log doesn't seem to exist
15:02<andythenorth>what's the fashionable way to do docs, with some basic search and navigation?
15:03<TrueBrain>readthedocs :)
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15:03<Samu_>order->GetType()) == type &&
15:03<Samu_> v->current_order.GetDestination() == destination)
15:03<Samu_>this check is insufficient
15:03<Samu_>order type is GO TO Depot
15:04<Samu_>destination brings up the depot ID, but it was used a station id instead
15:04<Samu_>they have the same ID, but they're not related
15:04<Samu_>one is a station, the other is a depot
15:04<Samu_>how to fix?
15:05<@Alberth>andy: I am fine with rst and sphinx, at least mature enough to cover all our needs
15:06<Samu_>gonna reuse the hangar boolean
15:06<@Alberth>and readthedocs is an option, just add a style probably?
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15:06<TrueBrain>its a sphinx theme, not?
15:07<@Alberth>don't know
15:08<TrueBrain> <- believe it is
15:08<TrueBrain>btw, can I suggest if you use Sphinx, to use Markdown? (instead of rst)
15:08<TrueBrain>(merely a suggestion :D)
15:09<TrueBrain>also a good place to publish docs btw, readthedocs
15:09<TrueBrain> <- yeah, they support Sphinx
15:10<TrueBrain>or MkDocs; dont know that one
15:12<@Alberth>not sure if markdown is powerful enough
15:12<andythenorth>there's a thing called GFM apparently
15:12<andythenorth>that adds tables etc
15:13<andythenorth>looks like a PITA tbh
15:14<andythenorth>the current NML docs rely heavily on tables
15:14<andythenorth>I guess it works
15:15<@Alberth>have to be a little carefult with markdown, GHs version is not standard
15:17<andythenorth>well I have no prejudice
15:17<andythenorth>rst / md I use both
15:17<andythenorth>neither is proper html :P
15:18<TrueBrain>HTML and proper in 1 sentence ... the only way that is allowed, is if there is a negate close to either one
15:24<andythenorth>oh TrueBrain
15:24<andythenorth>such lolz
15:24<TrueBrain>I Wasnt being funny
15:27<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened issue #7391: 9b99b95955d72e49821fe235c0d6fc1e75dc64b2
15:31<@Alberth>oh dear, language file has long lines :p
15:34<@Alberth>btw started with the tutorial
15:35<andythenorth>can we write a transmogrifier?
15:35<andythenorth>for wiki format -> rst?
15:36<andythenorth>there's currently zero need to change the structure or content, just the container
15:36<@LordAro>Samu_: ffs that's not an issue title
15:36<TrueBrain>andythenorth: if with "we" you mean "you",sure :P
15:36<Samu_>i edited
15:36<@LordAro>Samu_: so you did, carry on :)
15:36<andythenorth>TrueBrain: we all know how my programming goes
15:36<andythenorth>I ask questions here until other people have done it
15:37<TrueBrain>that is what makes it awesome
15:37<andythenorth>what was frosch123's quote?
15:37<andythenorth>"artists think he's a great programmer"
15:37<andythenorth>"programmers think he's a great artist"
15:37<andythenorth>subtle, but devestating :(
15:38<frosch123>yes, quoting clifford stoll
15:38<andythenorth>applies to me, V453000 and pikka
15:43<frosch123>i think some f blog post also distinguished people making images by drawing, and prople making images by scripting
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15:49<andythenorth>mediawiki -> rst? o_O
15:50<frosch123>no idea what you try do do, but didn't md win against rst?
15:50<andythenorth>rst -> md? o_O
15:50*andythenorth wonders if we can get a dump of wiki content
15:50<frosch123>what wiki?
15:51<frosch123>ottd wiki?
15:51<frosch123>what would you want with that? stockpile supplies for winter?
15:51<frosch123>hmm, nml wiki
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15:53<andythenorth>I found this, but it looks like overhead :P
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15:56<frosch123> <- is that all?
15:56<frosch123>looks like there are less than 100 pages, so you can use the regular export page
15:57<andythenorth>I haven't parsed xml for about 15 years :)
15:57<andythenorth>blast from the past
15:57<andythenorth>Alberth: ^ shall we exploit that then?
15:58<@Alberth>probably faster than manual copy, although we need to go through it all anyway
15:58<frosch123> <- there are also only very few images in the whole wiki
15:59<frosch123>though some images have disputable licenses
15:59<@Alberth>oh fun, xml and media wiki syntax in the text
16:00<andythenorth>Alberth: my plan would be automated transform to some kind of tmp dir, than manually move pages one at a time
16:00<andythenorth>and commit htem
16:00<andythenorth>them *
16:00<andythenorth>might be an awful plan :)
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16:01<@Alberth>it's going to be horrible anyway, no matter wgat you do, probably
16:01<@Alberth>thanks frosch
16:02<andythenorth>automated transforms have the benefit of rinse-repeat :)
16:02<frosch123>Alberth: <- if you want to repeat some time
16:03<frosch123>those pages are not previledged
16:03<andythenorth>I manually migrated OpenTTD website pages, but TB did a transform for the blog posts
16:03<frosch123>i c&p the list of pages from the first page to the second, and got that xml
16:04<@Alberth>saved it in a file, so it's findable if we need it
16:06<andythenorth>let's see what this pandoc thing does
16:09<andythenorth>hmm, now I need an rst parse :P
16:11<andythenorth>it's failing to understand the tables :P
16:12<@Alberth>needs reformatting anyway :p
16:19<andythenorth>oh this is interesting
16:20<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #7384: Fix: Display tooltips on industry chains window even when "Show toolt…
16:22<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7385: Fix: NewGRF feature cleanup.
16:24<planetmaker>moving nml wiki to repo?
16:25<@LordAro>planetmaker: andy's decided all wiki's need to die
16:26<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #7389: Fix tooltips not appearing in some instances.
16:28<@Alberth>mostly have documentation for a specific release
16:29<Samu_>if (ot == OT_GOTO_DEPOT && (order->GetDepotActionType() & ODATFB_NEAREST_DEPOT) != 0 || (v->type != VEH_AIRCRAFT && hangar)) continue;
16:29<Samu_>wondering if this fix is enough
16:30<Samu_>backup orders will be trouble :/
16:30<frosch123>funnily nfo specs were in ttdp repo before moved to a tikiwiki, and later mediawiki
16:30<Samu_>there is no 'v'
16:30<frosch123>while nml specs were in nml repo before moved to mediawiki
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16:32<andythenorth>things move in cycles
16:32<andythenorth>there is a wiki case for general newgrf, e.g. cargo labels etc
16:33<andythenorth>and a wiki case for grfcodec, because it releases so rarely, and the tool doesn't change much for newgrf features
16:34<andythenorth>but if nml wants aggressive approach to deprecation, it needs versioned docs
16:34<andythenorth>and it's good hygiene to include the doc changes with PRs changing features, because the one can't be released without the other
16:34<andythenorth>my €0.02
16:35<frosch123> <- start from there? :p
16:36<andythenorth>not bad :P
16:36<andythenorth>so old is new again?
16:36<andythenorth>very 1984
16:36<frosch123>i think that is before nml 0.2
16:36<planetmaker>that's well-argued, andythenorth
16:36<frosch123>so, likely different syntax
16:38<andythenorth>I am definitely copying this from projects like Bootstrap
16:38<andythenorth>and some of the python packages
16:48<andythenorth>any recollection of why repo html was moved to wiki?
16:48<planetmaker>yes: maintainable
16:49<andythenorth>no need to release for a docs edit?
16:49<planetmaker>wiki has a much lower entry barrier in being added to than the repo itself - especially for NewGRF authors where many don't use VCS
16:49<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] M3Henry updated pull request #7165: [core] Implement SmallVector using std::vector
16:50<planetmaker>added to that, tt-wiki has all NewGRF docs somewhat nicely combined in one place
16:50<planetmaker>I wonder though... the validity of these two arguments somewhat deteriorated since they were made pro wiki
16:51<andythenorth>I do like being able to move seamlessly between nml and nfo docs
16:51<planetmaker>making it look nice also seemed to me somewhat easier in a wiki than writing the stuff myself in html
16:51<andythenorth>ok so format was a factor?
16:52<planetmaker>for me: yes
16:52<planetmaker>there might be better solutions meanwhile than editing html in plain text :P
16:53<planetmaker>however, version differences is something which so far was IMHO quite well-documented in the wiki, too
16:54<planetmaker>I quite like the graphical way version stuff is shown in tt-wiki with the small icons/graphics for nml/ottd/ttdp
16:54<andythenorth>I am not 100% convinced on changing it yet
16:55<andythenorth>the arguments are good, but are they balanced out by disadvantage of fragmenting wiki?
16:55<planetmaker>what you mean with fragmenting wiki?
16:56<andythenorth>moving nml to readthedocs or so
16:56<andythenorth>means newgrf info is spread over two places
16:57<planetmaker>where would grfcodec / nfo go? Should it be directly in OpenTTD?
16:57<andythenorth>subjectively, I prefer readthedocs, it looks more polished
16:57<andythenorth>but the info is the same to consume in readthedocs or wiki
16:57<planetmaker>that's what you use with firs, too, right?
16:57<andythenorth>no I just wrote my own for newgrfs
16:57<andythenorth>it's trivial
16:58<andythenorth>static html generation is a 10 min job :)
16:58<andythenorth>I wonder if newgrf spec should be directly in OpenTTD docs?
16:58<andythenorth>and all mention of TTDP is removed?
16:59<andythenorth>then newgrf spec changes also come with docs written, in the OpenTTD PR
17:00<@LordAro>i'd be in favour of that
17:00<andythenorth>historically newgrf docs have needed all this extra crap, like "works in OpenTTD r27050" etc
17:00<andythenorth>and "not supported in TTDP"
17:00<andythenorth>I want a bonfire, but not a bonfire of features
17:00<andythenorth>just a bonfire of dead wood
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17:01<@LordAro>those are the best bonfires
17:01<planetmaker>as long as the dead wood does not come in the form of books :P
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17:01<andythenorth>then the remaining community info can go to the OpenTTD wiki, e.g. cargo labels etc
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17:01<andythenorth>there's a pretty well established, nicely presented wiki section already
17:01<m3henry>LordAro: Am confused as to why GitHub complains I still have stuff to review, but I've Resolved all of them
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17:02<planetmaker>That line of argument has charm. I wonder if some people will feel like we burn down our foundations
17:02<@LordAro>m3henry: reviews are separate from the comments, in terms of "changes requested"
17:02<@LordAro>well, usually
17:02*andythenorth should look in code
17:03<andythenorth>I am wondering if there is *any* chance we can document action 0 / 1 / 2 / 3 with doxygen from OpenTTD src
17:03<andythenorth>Doxygen can read .h files I assume?
17:03<@LordAro>i think something using groups could be done, but the code would have to be significantly refactored to properly support it
17:04<planetmaker>I've my doubts that it works in a way that it actually is usable / understandable
17:04<andythenorth>yeah me too
17:04<@LordAro>alternatively, yeah, just a file with a comment will do, i think
17:04<andythenorth>it's just a bit frustrating that it can't, but eh :)
17:04<m3henry>LordAro: What do I do to deal with this?
17:04<andythenorth>hysterical raisins :P
17:04<@LordAro>m3henry: wait :)
17:04<andythenorth>we used to do a thing with python apps sometimes where there was a file of interfaces, with doc strings
17:04<andythenorth>which were stable
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17:05<andythenorth>and then they were pointed to other modules, methods etc
17:05<andythenorth>ok, it's indirection, but it gave a list of core entities and relations in one place
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17:13<planetmaker>the beauty of a wiki is it works for small edits just like the easiest text editor thinkable: click, edit, save, done
17:14<planetmaker>the ugly side is when it comes to making larger edits. Then it needs clicking in many places, here and there. No global search&replace etc
17:14<planetmaker>so overall +- 0
17:15<frosch123>i think moving nfo docs to ottd won't work
17:15<@LordAro>github web editor largely solves the first problem
17:16<andythenorth>frosch123: I'm on the fence, what's your argument?
17:16<frosch123>there are two things there: a plain spec, and something between an elaborate description/tutorial
17:16<frosch123>i think when moving nml and nfo into a single wiki, there was also the idea to share the description part
17:16<frosch123>though i guess that never worked out
17:17<planetmaker>not to a large extend, but some
17:17<andythenorth>I only really use the nfo docs
17:17<andythenorth>o/c, I am weird :P
17:17<frosch123>also, while you can happily make forks of nml with different syntax, that does not quite work for nfo
17:17<andythenorth>I only use nml to look up the keywords, and the syntax
17:17<planetmaker>I use both parts
17:19<planetmaker> <-- actually I wonder why these things are not shared :P
17:20<frosch123>how about the opposite? :p vehicles grfs should define all properties, so there should be no defaults listed :p
17:21<planetmaker>I agree with that approach
17:21<frosch123>btw. that page is actually shared
17:22<frosch123>nfo links to nml, since there is no individual nfo page :p
17:22<planetmaker>oh. So maybe the context which is either or confused me
17:22<frosch123>7 nfo pages, 1 nml page
17:23<frosch123>they differ in hex numbers vs. symbolic constants
17:24<frosch123>andythenorth: so, i would advicse to not port those tables into your new md docs :p
17:25<frosch123>planetmaker: if those numbers would be subject to change, i would suggest to generate those pages, but duh :p
17:26<frosch123>people make that kind of pages
17:26<frosch123>i would not be surprised if someone did not account for inflation
17:27<frosch123>haha, even £ to $ conversion is wrong
17:30<orudge>Nice, somebody's ported RPM to OS/2 and has set up a repository with a bunch of open source software ports
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17:43<andythenorth>so...the conclusion is?
17:43<andythenorth>moving docs might be a lot of work for neutral benefit? :P
17:43<andythenorth>I am still +1 for personal reasons
17:44<andythenorth>but I don't find the wiki hard to use, it's generally well structured, and search usually works
17:44<frosch123>it's very small :)
17:46<andythenorth>mainly, I just really like the culture of docs that travel directly with the code
17:46<andythenorth>it has worked really well for me in newgrf projects, and in some UI libraries I maintain
17:47<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc opened pull request #7392: Fix #7391, 9b99b95: Don't invalidate go to depot orders of non-aircra…
17:51<Samu_>oh thanks michi_cc
17:51<Samu_>line 1853/1854 also needs looking
17:52<@LordAro>Samu_: on the PR...
17:58<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #7392: Fix #7391, 9b99b95: Don't invalidate go to depot orders of non-aircra…
18:00<Samu_>good job, I guess that was it, I was about to create the PR
18:01<Samu_>was still figuring a way to fix 1853/1854, I'm too slow
18:01<Samu_>but you beat me
18:03<Samu_>the order_backup is maybe not correct
18:03<Samu_>have to think
18:03<+michi_cc>I did test it.
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18:07<Samu_>this->tile = v->tile;
18:07<Samu_>ah, if it's the v->tile then it's correct
18:08<Samu_>IsHangarTile check is ...
18:11<+michi_cc>It's the equivalent to v->type == VEH_AIRCRAFT
18:11<+glx>lol stale bot marks closed task as stale
18:13<Samu_>so my AI was fine afterall
18:13<Samu_>reverting to v9, brb
18:14<Samu_>wait, no, i need v10 still
18:14<Samu_>just not that ugly check to ensure depots were still in use
18:15<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stale[bot] closed issue #2155: Console: heightmaps for dedicated server
18:26<Samu_> this also needs the backporting issue
18:26<Samu_>while you're at it
18:27<Samu_>maybe I should describe it
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18:29<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #7376: Fix: Enforce the max_no_competitors test before creating an AI company in multiplayer.
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18:49<@peter1138>I back
18:49<@peter1138>Eating a very late dinner. Maybe I should've not bothered.
19:00<@peter1138>Mmm, baklava
19:00<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN closed pull request #7384: Fix: Display tooltips on industry chains window even when "Show toolt…
19:00<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN closed issue #7386: Measurement tooltips do not always appear
19:00<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN merged pull request #7389: Fix tooltips not appearing in some instances.
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19:05<@peter1138>No vision!
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19:15<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stale[bot] closed issue #4540: Orders: toggle display of implicit orders
19:15<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stale[bot] closed issue #5078: NOAI API lack vehicle is old event
19:18<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7390: Remove: ENABLE_NETWORK switch
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19:19<@peter1138>Samu_, do you still want an invalid-order event?
19:20<Samu_>order events, there's many
19:20<Samu_>invalid order, void order
19:20<Samu_>uhm.. repeating order
19:20<@peter1138>Whatever players get...
19:21<Samu_>i suppose it would be useful
19:21<Samu_>not for me anymore, though, the bug was indeed in openttd
19:21<Samu_>but maybe in the future
19:22<Samu_>there's some 1.9 api stuff for airports that I'm willing to try
19:22<Samu_>the monthly maintenance costs
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19:23<Samu_>and perhaps the groups
19:23<Samu_>not that I have a real need at the moment, but it's probably gonna help me in the long run
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19:28<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN opened pull request #7393: Fix #7390: Extra line removed by mistake caused server_password to disappear from settings.
19:33<TrueBrain>Nice catch peter1138 .. bad reviewer :(
19:34<+glx>CMake Warning (dev) at C:/vcpkg/scripts/buildsystems/vcpkg.cmake:147 (_add_executable): Policy CMP0069 is not set: INTERPROCEDURAL_OPTIMIZATION is enforced when enabled. Run "cmake --help-policy CMP0069" for policy details. Use the cmake_policy command to set the policy and suppress this warning.
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19:34<+glx>seems something doesn't work for MSVC projects
19:35<+glx>because it should be set
19:35<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #7393: Fix #7390: Extra line removed by mistake caused server_password to disappear from settings.
19:36<@peter1138>TrueBrain, -Werror caught it :-)
19:36<ST2>that moment someone decided to stop supporting old msvc compiler but at same time there's a discussion about DOS
19:37<ST2>sorry, wasn't clear enough?
19:40<ST2>note: not complaining, because the way is forward - but discussion about DOS support, in 2019?!
19:41<+glx>where ?
19:41<@peter1138>The discussion was about removing it...
19:41<+glx>we drop old MSVC a long time ago, but we still use MSVC
19:41<ST2>is that even a discussion?
19:42<ST2>but many people still use legit Visual Studio 2010 (not cheap) and not supported anymore - sorry to say but, are there any DOS users?
19:44<+glx>but they can use community version of modern Visual Studio
19:44<ST2>so, why the need to discuss to even discuss drop DOS?
19:44<ST2>- 2nd discuss*
19:45<@peter1138>What's the problem>
19:45<@peter1138>Why does it matter?
19:45<ST2>nonew for me, just wanted to find the "community version of modern Visual Studio"?
19:46<ST2>is there a link for it?
19:46<ST2>and... can you define "modern"?
19:46<+glx>VS2015 has a free version, VS2017 has a free version, VS2019 will have a free version
19:46<ST2>so, what is the modern version?
19:47<ST2>OpenTTD 1.7.0, 1.8.0 or 1.9.0-RC1?
19:47<ST2>VS free versions doesn't allow do all stuff (as known)
19:49<Samu_>backport requested for my pr?
19:50<Samu_>maybe there's conflicts
19:50<Samu_>network ifdefs were removed, right?
19:53<+glx>not that limited too me
19:53<ST2>thx glx :)
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19:54<+glx>for 2010 there were express versions, those were very limited indeed :)
19:54<+glx>only one language per express
19:55<ST2>Samu: no idea if merged, but appears to go that way :)
19:55<+glx>but since VS2012 or VS2015 it's way better
19:55<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN merged pull request #7393: Fix #7390: Extra line removed by mistake caused server_password to disappear from settings.
19:56<ST2>glx: well, guess I'll jump to VS2019 and see where it leads :D
19:56<ST2>thx for tips :)
19:56<ST2>and sorry to bother :)
19:57<+glx>and we will probably switch to cmake, which is natively supported by 2017 and 2019
19:57<ST2>then I'll be fine :D
19:58<+glx>oh and we use vcpkg for the external libs too
19:58<+glx>we stopped providing our own precompiled libs
20:01<+glx>nobody updated the wiki I think
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20:05<ST2>yeah, that looks like "lets change stuff" and wait to people modify wiki as things are noticed ^^
20:05<ST2>not complaining, because I appreciate the work you do :)
20:05<+glx>as with any wiki I guess :)
20:06<ST2>true :D
20:07<ST2>well, I'm still on the level of swearing with git stuff
20:07<+glx>at least the internal doc is up-to-date
20:07<+glx>for basic git stuff I just use github desktop
20:08<ST2>with basics I can deal, which isn't bad for a SVN guy :D
20:08<ST2>but I'll get there :D
20:08<+glx>but command line is often needed too, works very well in powershell
20:09<ST2>noticed it, I managed it better when doing it from one of our servers (Debian) that on Windows (OS I use)
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20:10<+glx>I like posh-git and the command completion
20:12<ST2>I, personally, like to use my repos, clone stuff there and change as I want, push, etc (maybe a noob move, but I'll get there :D) - feels like the way to don't disturb anyone with my mess :D
20:13<+glx>well the usual way is fork, then clone your fork and work on branches
20:14<ST2>at least managed the way with the plugins we use
20:14<ST2>since are only 14 files, easier to manage :D
20:14<ST2>so, my learning ground :D
20:15<+glx>I'm still learning :)
20:15<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stale[bot] closed issue #6328: Try to preserve existing depot orders when demolishing / rebuilding a depot.
20:15<+glx>but usually when I want to do something I ask google
20:15<Samu_>peter1138, 7376 warrants backport requested tag imo
20:15<ST2>the best friend google :D
20:16<ST2>[00:15:03] <+glx> I'm still learning :) <<-- guess you didn't created the club... but I'm on it too :D
20:16<ST2>glx: thx for all, sorry my words that looked angry
20:17<ST2>sleep time for me, gn8 all :)
20:17<Samu_>hi st2
20:17<Samu_>oh, gn
20:17<ST2>gn8 Samu_ :)
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20:18<Samu>underscore sometimes appears for my name
20:19<+glx>Samu: happens when you reconnect before the previous connection timeout
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---Logclosed Thu Mar 21 00:00:21 2019