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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-05-06

---Logopened Mon May 06 00:00:27 2019
00:54<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #7573: Fix #7561: Remove assumption between power and cost
01:00<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] dorobouNeko commented on pull request #7573: Fix #7561: Remove assumption between power and cost
01:01<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #7573: Fix #7561: Remove assumption between power and cost
01:02<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] dorobouNeko commented on pull request #7573: Fix #7561: Remove assumption between power and cost
01:06<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] dorobouNeko updated pull request #7573: Fix #7561: Remove assumption between power and cost
01:35<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] YJSoft commented on pull request #7572: GDI engine for font glyph rendering as a replacement for FreeType (take 2)
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01:52<@peter1138>Is it lunch time yet?
01:54<andythenorth>no frosch yet?
01:54<andythenorth>bit early
02:06<@peter1138>Ah well, I have a cup of tea instead then.
02:08<andythenorth>I have not had coffee yet
02:12<andythenorth>1 or 2?
02:13<andythenorth>it doesn't matter, but IRL is
02:15<dwfreed>it would be a better comparison if the screenshots had the same bounding box :P
02:15<dwfreed>I kind of like 2, simply because it's more noticeable
02:15<dwfreed>1 you really only notice at that high resolution
02:16<@peter1138>andythenorth, in between.
02:16<@peter1138>andythenorth, curtains in the edges, but not 3 pixels of them.
02:17<@peter1138>You have 3 pixels in the middle so 1.5 pixels on the edges makes sense.
02:17<andythenorth>so it's quite common with symmetrical trains to get sprites that look like Space Invader enemies
02:17<andythenorth>and 1 has that effect
02:18*andythenorth proceeds to draw 1.5 pixels
02:19<@peter1138>If you were drawing at 2x, it would be 6 and 3...
02:19<andythenorth>I shall remember that
02:26<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7573: Fix #7561: Remove assumption between power and cost
02:31*andythenorth times optimised nml compiles
02:33<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7572: GDI engine for font glyph rendering as a replacement for FreeType (take 2)
02:36<andythenorth>if I spend about a day on it, I can probably get 10-15s off each compile run
02:36<andythenorth>they're about 60-65s currently, depending on cache state
02:37*andythenorth coffee
02:37<@peter1138>Is 60-65s faster than it was?
02:37<@peter1138>(Did something change)
02:38<andythenorth>it's about the same for Horse
02:38<andythenorth>bit slower than last week, I added a few thousand more sprites
02:40<andythenorth>removing all the cargo sprites knocks about 25s off
02:41<andythenorth>the cargo sprites are comped into the spritesheets using python currently
02:41<andythenorth>I could move them to layers
02:41<andythenorth>then figure out the reduced set of unique cargo sprites needed to cover all wagon types and lengths
02:42<andythenorth>then add another layer for the mask to draw bits of vehicle back over the cargo
02:43<andythenorth>@calc 72 * 6
02:43<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 432
02:44<@peter1138>Don't defer combining sprites to OpenTTD.
02:44<@peter1138>You're asking OpenTTD to do more work, all the time, to save a few seconds of compile-time.
02:44<@peter1138>Never optimize compile-time over runtime-time.
02:45<andythenorth>but but :P
02:45<andythenorth>this is exactly what layers were added to do :P
02:45<andythenorth>it's not that I disagree btw
02:45<@peter1138>I don't know why they were added. I'm sure there was a specific reason.
02:46<andythenorth>because it avoids people like me doing python based composition
02:46<@peter1138>Same with V453000 using callbacks all the time instead of static properties.
02:46<andythenorth>so errr....
02:47<@peter1138>Although that's less of a issue.
02:47<andythenorth>Horse would be much faster to compile if I split it into separate grfs
02:47<@peter1138>Just get a faster CPU :D
02:47<andythenorth>I have seriously considered buying a PC tower for compiling
02:47<@peter1138>Didn't frosch say something about a parallelizing build at some point?
02:47<@peter1138>Wait, you're using a laptop? o_O
02:48<andythenorth>get a PC tower, put it in the loft, compile over ethernet
02:48<andythenorth>network IO might eat any speed gain though
02:48<andythenorth>how fast do CPUs go single-threaded now?
02:50*andythenorth can't understand the Dell site
02:51<andythenorth>meh high core count, low clock, not what I want
02:54<@peter1138>Rewrite nmlc in C++ :p
02:55*andythenorth looking for i9-9900 prices
03:00<andythenorth>£1700 for an over-clocked i9 tower
03:01<andythenorth>about 25% faster than my CPU
03:04<@peter1138>You reckon?
03:04<@peter1138>What's your CPU now?
03:04<andythenorth>i7 8559U
03:05<andythenorth>geekbench has it at 5140 single threaded
03:05<andythenorth>i9 9900 is averaging 6216
03:07<andythenorth>18% faster
03:08<@peter1138>Sounds wrong.
03:09<@peter1138>The base clock is 33% higher to start with.
03:09<@peter1138>+ more cache.
03:10<@peter1138>+ better thermal properties, being not-a-laptop.
03:10<@peter1138>But still, £1700 to make Horse compile a few seconds faster is a bit much :D
03:10<@peter1138>Crowd fund it!
03:11<@LordAro>i think it would be more worthwhile to speed £1700 on speeding up nml
03:11<andythenorth>I had another idea about detecting when only the sprites have changed
03:11<andythenorth>then switching to grfcodec
03:12<andythenorth>nml can output nfo, and often that would be unchanged
03:12<@LordAro>not sure how feasible that is with makefiles
03:13*andythenorth suspects there's a way
03:13<andythenorth>grfcodec compile is 3s
03:14<andythenorth>@calc 3 * 0.82
03:14<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 2.46
03:14<andythenorth>would be 2.46s if I put that i9 in the loft
03:15<@peter1138>Yeah, hot dusty lofts are the best places for computers.
03:16<andythenorth>I could liquid cool it, and use it to keep my hot tub warm?
03:16<andythenorth>big heat sink :P
03:28<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN updated pull request #7380: Feature: Multi-tile docks.
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05:18<_dp_>i9 is kinda meh
05:18<_dp_>sure, it's fast single thread but amd totally tramples it on cores
05:19<_dp_>and new ryzen is coming
05:19<V453000>the single threaded performance is amazing
05:19<V453000>great for Factorio & openttd computer torture
05:19<V453000>for other things yeah :D
05:19<V453000>but idk, a lot of the tasks I do still rely heavily on single threaded stuff
05:20<V453000>like for example rendering in Blender - it's cute that all CPU benchmarks are on multi threaded when you render from the CPU, but you generally never want to do that, you want to render on the GPU. But the preparations before the data is sent to the GPU is from a large part single-threaded. :) And surprisingly that amount of time to synchronize is not insignificant
05:21<V453000>but yeah the new AMDs are incredible as well in their own
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05:22<V453000>btw _dp_ I saw your zombies :D looked interesting but your humanity was quite wiped out
05:25<@peter1138>_dp_, laughable. Intel trounce AMD. More cores is great for servers, but don't make up for low single-core performance.
05:25<@peter1138>(i.e. gaming)
05:26<_dp_>V453000, well, it restarts when they destroy everything
05:26<_dp_>V453000, if you start early there you have some time to build up
05:27<_dp_>V453000, but it's just an experiment at this point, not a complete gameplay
05:27<reldred>I dunno peter1138, some of the new vidja james are getting a lot better at smashing cores
05:27<V453000>yeah that's what I thought
05:27<V453000>well generally buying a big good CPU for games is kind of pointless,no ? Just dump it all into a GPU and go nuts
05:27<@LordAro>some of them, not all
05:27<dwfreed>I mean, look at factorio
05:27<V453000>for "general games"
05:27<V453000>factorio is quite s pecific
05:28<reldred>Yeah depends on the games
05:28<@LordAro>quite a lot of what games do isn't very parallelisable
05:28<dwfreed>yeah, but more games are going to multithreading
05:28<_dp_>peter1138, openttd is the only st thing I use :p
05:28<@LordAro>i'm thinking of the physics simulation for KSP
05:28<reldred>I've started to find I'm getting CPU constrained in a lot of games now. Didn't always used to be that way, but I am still on AM3.
05:28<@LordAro>there's nothing that can be done about that
05:28<V453000>for example I'm getting +100% (!) performance on factorio between 7820X with 3000MHz CL15 vs 9900K 4266MHz CL17
05:29<@LordAro>V453000: that is surprising
05:29<_dp_>peter1138, but now I can have stitton of browsers open, up to 4 openttd sometimes and not care at all
05:29<andythenorth>nml is single threaded :P
05:29<dwfreed>LordAro: independent objects can be parallelized there
05:29<V453000>and I don't undersand why
05:29<andythenorth>nml is all that matters :P
05:29<_dp_>peter1138, also clean-compile openttd in < 30 sec ;)
05:29<@LordAro>dwfreed: until they have to interact with each other
05:29<V453000>I blame the HEDT vs gaming grade CPU/motherboard but WTF
05:29<dwfreed>LordAro: then they stop being independent objects
05:30<dwfreed>LordAro: but there's a fixed point in time in the simulation where that happens
05:30<@LordAro>yes, and that's the point that people start complaining about performance :p
05:33<@peter1138>Basically you want more MHz AND more cores :p
05:34<@LordAro>except AMD cores are generally clocked higher than Intel :p
05:34<@peter1138>AMD cores are generally shitter.
05:34*peter1138 ponders using guids as primary keys.
05:34<@LordAro>MHz isn't comparable
05:35<@peter1138>Yeah, I meant within the same architecture.
05:36<reldred>Yeah I was running stuff that required a lot of threads at the time I bought my 8 core am3.
05:36<reldred>Not so much these days
05:36<@LordAro>yeah, we use threadripper at work for our build servers
05:37*andythenorth ponders multi-threaded nml :P
05:38<andythenorth>map-reduce on the parse step :P
05:38<@LordAro>has anyone actually done any profiling on nml?
05:39<@LordAro>trying to optimise something without knowing what's actually slow is a recipe for disaster
05:42<Artea>bad morning
05:43<andythenorth>LordAro: frosch has afaik
05:43<andythenorth>basic timings are easy to get
05:43<andythenorth>a chunk of that is my stuff, but the nml timings are obvious there
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06:48*peter1138 ponders setting up Elite Dangerous again.
06:48<@peter1138>It lost all my binds in the last update :(
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08:17<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stale[bot] commented on pull request #7025: Add #6887: Option to show zone inside local authority boundary of towns
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10:42<Samu>round 16 almost over
10:43<Samu>1 game remaining
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11:05*Artea on Doom OST (SC55) - I Sawed The Demons (Extended) @
11:05<Artea>good song ::]
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11:53<moll>Hey! Are there any OpenTTD wiki admins here, too? I'd like to ask them to turn MediaWiki's API on for a wiki backup. It'd be so much faster and less load on the server to grab the wikitext through that way rather than via less machine-readable ways. :)
11:57<Samu>round 16 complete!
11:59<@LordAro>moll: there's an awful lot of things that we'd like to do to the wiki :)
11:59<@LordAro>but the guy who normally deals with these things has been away for a while
12:00<@LordAro>i wouldn't worry too much about our server load though, so feel free to scrape it the slow way
12:02<moll>Thx. To be honest, I'm not actually sure whether the Wikiteam's backuper does support other means...
12:02<moll>I'm in no hurry, so maybe I can wait until that fellow returns.
12:02<moll>Who are we waiting for? ^_^
12:02<@LordAro>@seen Truebrain
12:02<@DorpsGek>LordAro: Truebrain was last seen in #openttd 3 weeks, 0 days, 22 hours, 1 minute, and 42 seconds ago: <TrueBrain> if that is the excuse, I am done
12:03<moll>Gotcha. Thanks!
12:03<@LordAro>we're, ah, hoping it's not permanent
12:05<moll>Well, I hope the bus-factor of that wiki/server isn't one. :P
12:06<@LordAro>i don't think it's quite that bad :)
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12:49*Artea on UT'99 - Foregone Destruction
12:49<TelepathicVampire>hey guys, im trying to compile 1.9.1 with visual studio 2017 (openttd_vs141) using the openttd useful libraries as explained in the compilation guide on the wiki. But i get a lot of link errors. Do i have to use nuget packages instead?
12:50<nielsm>that's no longer correct
12:50<nielsm>see the readme file for correct instructions
12:52<TelepathicVampire>thanks, thats what i was looking for
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13:11<TelepathicVampire>sorry, i'm not very experienced with those packages: i tried to find the best match for each library even though they sometimes don't include static keyword or even x86, they install fine but compiler says cannot find "png.h", "zlib.h" and so on
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13:19<andythenorth>ohai Alberth :)
13:19<@LordAro>TelepathicVampire: i'm not super experienced with MSVC compilation, but i believe all the dependencies do need to be static
13:20<@LordAro>and match the architecture of whatever you're building as (probably should be x64)
13:20<@Alberth>wouldn't complain about .h then, would it?
13:20<@LordAro>depends how the include paths are set up, maybe?
13:21<TelepathicVampire>i think my mistake was to assume i could use the nuget packages when the manual said to use vcpkg
13:21<@Alberth>possibly, it may be smart and ignore libraries if they don't fulfil all the requirements
13:22<TelepathicVampire>sometimes i ignore explicit instructions for some reason^^
13:22<andythenorth>so are we profiling nmlc then? o_O
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13:25<@Alberth>we are?
13:25<@Alberth>I tried that once, and concluded it collects memory, and does too much optimization iirc
13:25<@Alberth>so it does something wrong somewhere :p
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13:28<@Alberth>I have no idea how to fix that tbh
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13:29*andythenorth wonders how fast it _should_ be
13:29<@Alberth>would be nice if you could draw conclusions like "it never modifies an existing EXpression object
13:30<@Alberth>but that's not quite possible due to the dynamic nature of the language
13:30<@Alberth>except for generating images, I would say bloody fast
13:30<@Alberth>as far as I know, it doesn't do much computation at all
13:31<@Alberth>I also tried speeding up the parser by converting it to C++, but that had pretty much no impact, as time isn't spend there
13:32<@LordAro>profile before optimisation ;)
13:32<@Alberth>yep :p
13:32<andythenorth>10s out of 50s is spent in parser for Horse
13:32<andythenorth>I suspect it might vary by grf
13:32<@Alberth>was a nice experiment to do anyway :)
13:33<@Alberth>how much time for generating pixels?
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13:33<@Alberth>fr0sch rewrote that to c++, which helped a lot
13:34<@LordAro>i wonder whether something like would reveal anything obvious
13:36<andythenorth>Alberth: Horse-specific timings
13:37<frosch123>the conversion to C only did factor 2
13:38<frosch123>the major effect came from sorting the sprites before encoding and opening every source image only once
13:38<frosch123>instead of opening/closing/reopening files as they appeared in the nml source
13:39<andythenorth>maybe as a bandaid, I should stop invalidating the cache
13:39<frosch123>LordAro: the main problem is that nml sources as generated by pyandynml and cppnml are huge
13:39<andythenorth>can't be too hard to compare the pngs I need during generation
13:40<@Alberth>only one way to find out I guess :p
13:40<frosch123>i think you can only speed up nml by adding higher level syntax, like functions/templates/whatever directly in nml
13:40<@LordAro>frosch123: how huge is huge?
13:41<@LordAro>it does seem like nml could do with some higher level syntax
13:41<frosch123>9945600 for firs.nml
13:41<@LordAro>given it seems people are only able to use it with a layer on top
13:42<andythenorth>is the parser immune to parallelisation?
13:42<@Alberth>nml was good relative to nfo
13:42<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] agentw4b opened issue #7574: Damaged Newgrf PIPE train sprites in Openttd 1.9.1 in combination with another train set (V 1.8.0 was not the problem)
13:42<@Alberth>nobody could think beyond nml
13:43<@LordAro>grfcodec & nml is equivalent to an assembler and c compiler, i guess
13:43<@LordAro>one is always going to be slower than the other
13:43<frosch123>the funny thing is, nml is way better at being grfcodec :p
13:43<frosch123>that is, the encoding part (the only thing that grfcodec does) is faster in nml
13:44<frosch123>(about same speed for 8bpp, way faster for 32bpp)
13:44*andythenorth wonders what to do next
13:44<andythenorth>I could stop invalidating the cache
13:44<andythenorth>that might save 5s
13:45<andythenorth>I could switch to nfo, if the nml is unchanged (only pngs changed)
13:45<andythenorth>that would save about 50s
13:45<andythenorth>the biggest payoff seems to be switching to nfo
13:45<@Alberth>pyflame doesn't know about python 3.7 :(
13:45<andythenorth>a lot of the time I am tweaking sprites, and code is unchanged
13:46<@Alberth>so can't even compile it
13:47<@LordAro>Alberth: :p
13:49<@Alberth>so they're stuck for not being able to press "merge" ;p
13:50<@LordAro>given there's been no activity since june
13:53<andythenorth>looks like a fork waiting to happen :P
13:55<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] agentw4b commented on issue #7574: Damaged Newgrf PIPE train sprites in Openttd 1.9.1 in combination with another train set
13:56<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] agentw4b closed issue #7574: Damaged Newgrf PIPE train sprites in Openttd 1.9.1 in combination with another train set
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14:36<@peter1138>I must have imagined that #7516 was merged...
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14:59<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] dorobouNeko commented on pull request #7573: Fix #7561: Remove assumption between power and cost
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15:46<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #7573: Fix #7561: Remove assumption between power and cost
15:48<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Milek7 updated pull request #7510: Emscripten support
15:52<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] dorobouNeko commented on pull request #7573: Fix #7561: Remove assumption between power and cost
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15:56<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] dorobouNeko updated pull request #7573: Fix #7561: Remove assumption between power and cost
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16:11<Samu>wow, weird victories
16:11<Samu>WmDOT beats CivilAI
16:12<Samu>CluelessPlus beats WormAI
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16:50<argoneus>good evening train friends
16:51<argoneus>I'm wondering - any idea what the openttd music was made in? e.g. "plain simple relax song"
16:51<argoneus>is it a tracker or
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16:59<FLHerne>argoneus: According to that was made by Tistou Blomberg
17:01<argoneus>I was wondering about the specific software
17:02<FLHerne>Yeah, I was hoping he had a blog or a forum post or something
17:02<FLHerne>But I can't find one
17:03<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #7572: GDI engine for font glyph rendering as a replacement for FreeType (take 2)
17:03<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #7572: GDI engine for font glyph rendering as a replacement for FreeType (take 2)
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17:07<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN requested changes for pull request #7573: Fix #7561: Remove assumption between power and cost
17:08<FLHerne>argoneus: So far the only information I can find for those particular tracks is
17:08<FLHerne>(which is useless)
17:09<FLHerne>If you don't care which track, there's some discussion of other ones in that thread
17:09<argoneus>any is fine, I'm just wondering if it's some old tracker software
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>you don't need tracker software to write midi music
17:11<FLHerne>Anvil, Sibelius, Guitar Pro (?)
17:11<argoneus>what would you use?
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>muse score is a current FOSS one
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>(unlikely that that was around when openmsx was made)
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17:39<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] dorobouNeko updated pull request #7573: Fix #7561: Remove assumption between power and cost
17:40<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] dorobouNeko commented on pull request #7573: Fix #7561: Remove assumption between power and cost
17:49<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #7573: Fix #7561: Remove assumption between power and cost
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18:18<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] dorobouNeko updated pull request #7573: Fix #7561: Remove assumption between power and cost
18:19<Eddi|zuHause>CI needs retriggering...
18:19<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] dorobouNeko commented on pull request #7573: Fix #7561: Remove assumption between power and cost
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>wtf... github decided to not let me post anymore?
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>"You can't comment at this time — your comment At least one email address must be verified to do that." wtf does that even mean?
18:22<@peter1138>Probably something broke.
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not going to bother with github tonight then...
18:26<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] dorobouNeko updated pull request #7573: Fix #7561: Remove assumption between power and cost
18:27<@peter1138>Well, it's trying now.
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20:35<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stale[bot] commented on issue #7311: Wrong determination of personal directory
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---Logclosed Tue May 07 00:00:29 2019