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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-05-08

---Logopened Wed May 08 00:00:30 2019
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00:56<NotSYL>I want to apologize for getting angry at this IRC over something that I did not realize was outside their control. Please unban me (SimYouLater), or if you cannot, tell me I am unwelcome and I will leave voluntarily.
02:02<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] GabdaZM commented on pull request #7025: Add #6887: Option to show zone inside local authority boundary of towns
02:33<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] dorobouNeko commented on pull request #7573: Fix #7561: Remove assumption between power and cost
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05:32<@peter1138>Slightly early for lunch.
05:33<andythenorth>elevenses then
05:34<@peter1138>But it's not 11
05:35<andythenorth>it will be by the time I get off my arse and go downstairs
05:35<andythenorth>all the food is downstairs
05:37<@peter1138>I had a croissant for breakfast. Pretty nice.
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06:38<andythenorth>oof I failed at elevenses
06:38<andythenorth>more like twelveses
06:42<@peter1138>How so?
06:42<@peter1138>You delayed it?
06:44<andythenorth>I made errors
06:44<andythenorth>of judgement, and of execution
06:48<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor updated pull request #7575: Feature: Add industry production graph
06:56<@peter1138>Not sure "already exists in ... Locomotion" is a relevant factor.
06:56<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor updated pull request #7575: Feature: Add industry production graph
06:57<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor commented on pull request #7575: Feature: Add industry production graph
06:59<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor commented on pull request #7575: Feature: Add industry production graph
07:00<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor commented on pull request #7575: Feature: Add industry production graph
07:03<@peter1138>I just had twelveses. One crisp :p
07:04<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor updated pull request #7575: Feature: Add industry production graph
07:09<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor commented on pull request #7575: Feature: Add industry production graph
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07:11<andythenorth>buying van insurance is dull
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07:18<@peter1138>Maybe we need that to make nmlc better :p
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07:30<@peter1138>Is it lunch time now?
07:31<andythenorth>I think so
07:40<Heiki>many keyboards have a small gap between F8 and F9; hereby I suggest adding an F8½ key there so that we can have a hotkey for building traways
07:40<andythenorth>I have a stupid touchbar, I could actually do that :P
07:41<andythenorth>mac emojibar support? o_O
07:41<@peter1138>We could do what Elite Dangerous seems to do every update... wipe out all the control settings...
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09:40<Heiki> wow
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09:47<Samu>@rand 9
09:56<Samu>Round 18 beings
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09:57<Eddi|zuHause>Heiki: well, technically, the keycodes go to like F40 or so
10:02*Artea on Let's Listen: Lufia II (SNES) - Sinistral Battle Theme (Extended) @
10:02<Artea>I <3 Lufia
10:03<Artea>awesome SNES RPG
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>never heard of it
10:05<Artea>you should play then
10:05<Artea>is very good
10:05<Artea>the graphics (for the time it came out)
10:05<Artea>the story, the characters
10:05<Artea>the puzzles
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>i also never had any nintendo stuffs
10:08<Artea>I only had GameBoy
10:09<Artea>just wish had a SNES Classic
10:09<Artea>so can play Lufia on TV
10:13<Artea>Lufia (Germany).zip
10:13<Artea>File Size : 2,17 mb
10:14<Artea>want it, Eddi|zuHause ?
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think so
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>the whole point of retro games is that you pick games that remind you of your childhood...
10:15<Eddi|zuHause>i have literally no connection to that game...
10:15<Artea>is a good game
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10:37<Samu>every AI is having a hard time
10:37<Samu>even with a £500K loan
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10:42<Samu>Convoy and Terron are the two AIs that are doing better in all this
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10:48<Samu>Im a bit surprised by Convoy, honestly
10:48<Samu>why is it succeeding
10:55<@Alberth>it's doing less worse than the others
10:55<Samu>it has poor management
10:55<Samu>it feels unmaintained, buggy even
10:56<Samu>many stopped busses in depots for apparently no reason
10:56<Samu>and yet...
10:56<Samu>it's doing better
11:01<Samu>sometimes no management is better than any management, I've come to notice that
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11:02<Samu>but terron is quite the opposite of convoy
11:02<Samu>it manages way too much
11:03<Samu>and it's doing fine
11:03<Samu>sells vehicles in every 2 years or something ,I dunno, but seems to do well for him
11:04<@Alberth>they must be doing something right :)
11:04<@Alberth>o/ andy
11:05<Samu>DumbAI, an AI that only transports coal trucks
11:05<Samu>is doing alright
11:05<Samu>it even crashes in desert / toyland because of no coal
11:06<Samu>just tells me coal is imba
11:06<Samu>it's a very rudimentar AI
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11:14<+glx>coal is the easy money maker
11:16<andythenorth>coal is one way
11:16<andythenorth>pax is an easy moneymaker, bi-directional
11:17<_dp_>you can do 2-way coal
11:17<_dp_>pax still better though unless towns are tiny
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11:19<_dp_>coz it's much faster to build than 2way coal
11:28*Artea on "Weird" Al Yankovic - Amish Paradise (Parody of "Gangsta's Paradise") @
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12:11<andythenorth>V453000: Czech trains pretty awesome style
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>so what's special about that?
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>also, how am i supposed to use a computer when a cat sits right in front of the screen, making no signs of moving any time soon?
12:16<@Alberth>either type blind, or give up
12:16<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: the overall proportions
12:17<@Alberth>alternatively, move the screen high enough such that the cat has a good spot under it without disturbing you
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>that's solving half the problem... it also occupies space i'd normally put the keyboard on
12:20<@Alberth>right, perhaps add some office things there so the cat doesn't want to sit there again?
12:21<@Alberth>she might find a spot that is even more troubling though :p
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12:35<Eddi|zuHause>ok, the problem is "solved"... as soon as i left the room, the cat moved from the desk... to the chair :p
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12:49<andythenorth>peter1138: so are you -1 to using sprite layers where not essential?
12:49*andythenorth about to do intermodal containers :P
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12:52<V453000>wot :D I'm about to use all 4 layers on all wagons
12:52<andythenorth>V453000: another boss train
12:52<V453000>andythenorth: I've never seen that.
12:53<V453000>the second one is cool
12:53<@peter1138>andythenorth, don't ask me, I've never benchmarked it. It's obviously going to be doing more work though.
12:53<V453000>is the drawing going to go nuts with 4 layers or?
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12:55<andythenorth>probably nobody knows
12:55<andythenorth>I was going to do intermodal containers in layers, then I can share the sprites across wagons
12:55<andythenorth>and have a faster compile
12:55<andythenorth>but eh
12:57<andythenorth>it's harder than I thought, because I have to composite front and rear of wagon over the containers
12:57<V453000>faster compile, I just care about future friendliness, I believe adding a bunch more support for new FIRS5 cargoes is easier through code if I have 10 wagon classes
12:57<andythenorth>so I have to draw masks and generate some extra sprites
12:58<V453000>unless the container has holes in it :)
12:58<V453000>for the wagon
12:58<andythenorth>different shaped wagons :P
12:58<V453000>yeah, that kind of variety is nice
12:58<andythenorth>so you don't composite all your sprites yet V453000? o_O
12:58<V453000>but costly work-wise :)
12:58<V453000>well none so far
12:58<andythenorth>but you totally have the skills :P
12:59<V453000>in subway I have been drawing blue alpha over my flatbd wagons :D
12:59<V453000>preparing them so I could do the code part some day
12:59<andythenorth>composited cargos means MOAR WAGONS is ez
13:00<V453000>eh skills, for example I was planning for my now-not-happening train set that wagons would not have dedicated loading stages, I would draw 9 stages and for example 1st gen wagons would only get stages 1-3, 2nd gen 1-5, 3rd gen 1-7 etc
13:00<V453000>so that the later gens look fuller and more capacity
13:00<V453000>but that's cute theory, actually drawing it in a way to make this work and function properly I am a bit sceptical about
13:00<andythenorth>all very things
13:00<andythenorth>and stuff
13:01<V453000>for example, having heaps clearly and completely overlap the further away wall of the hopper wagon is really important
13:01<V453000>and that's quite some precision
13:01<andythenorth>I do masks and crap
13:01<andythenorth>it took ages to set up, but is super scalable
13:01<V453000>for now I will stay conservative and just do layers + recolouring but no masks+full cargo sprites which are overdrawn by wagon part in top layer
13:02<V453000>well I would probably do masks if I were doing it in 3D
13:02<V453000>but idk
13:03<V453000>layers + recolouring already means that for example hoppers get 1 empty wagon + 1 cargo sprite in 3 loading stages... that's only 4 spritesheets. I can see myself immediately trying to draw 3 varieties for all of them, and that alone would majorly improve how it looks
13:03<V453000>randoms which just change stripes or alter how the heaps in hoppers look are amazing
13:03<andythenorth>random hopper cargos :D
13:03*andythenorth hasn't done that yet
13:03<V453000>and once you have the 1st sprite it's not that much work
13:04<V453000>the daunting part is when you have varieties, loading stages, and 30 different cargoes done manually
13:04<V453000>when a cargo is just a recolour table, damn
13:04<V453000>and there is one more thing, though quite specific for NUTS - for example my building material wagons are usually yellow iirc
13:04<V453000>but goods wagons are gray
13:04<V453000>that means that they are completely separate and can't be combined
13:05<V453000>but for example YETI and I believe some versions of FIRS didn't have goods
13:05<V453000>yet the building materials didn't use containers etc
13:05<V453000>if I have layers, I can easily define which cargoes can be on the flatbed without having to duplicate sprites just to change the colour of the wagon base
13:05<andythenorth>oh the devzone cert expired?
13:06<andythenorth>false colours
13:06<andythenorth>repainted in compile
13:06<andythenorth>makes 3 wagons
13:06<andythenorth>I have missed V453000
13:06<andythenorth>automate all things!
13:18<Samu>convoy failed later on
13:19<Samu>did not replace his old busses
13:20<Samu>Tried to play Path of Exile with 24 OpenTTDs open
13:20<Samu>bad idea
13:22<Samu>i want a new cpu, a 32 core would suffice
13:22<Samu>give me money
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13:25<Samu>I can't do anything with the computer
13:25<@Alberth>read a book
13:26<Samu>must wait for the ais to complete £10M
13:26<Samu>ewww... reading books...
13:26<Samu>unless it's something I really want to read, no thx
13:27<@peter1138>Read a book you really want a read...
13:28<Samu>terron also failed
13:28<Samu>most successful Ais, failing
13:28<Samu>i got a feeling, no one is gonna finish
13:29<@LordAro>read a book on testing
13:29<@LordAro>or AI design
13:29<@peter1138>Or Python ;-)
13:31<@peter1138>Hmm, such a long list of parties.
13:32<@peter1138>Change UK - The Independent Group, Conservative and Unionist Party, Green Party, Labour Party, Liberal Democrats, The Brexit Party, The Socialist Party of Great Britain, UK European Union Party (UKEUP), UK Independence Party (UKIP), and... three independents.
13:37<andythenorth>Peter Party?
13:40<@peter1138>Nah, too busy mountainbiking.
13:41<@peter1138>Which I am about to get ready for.
13:41<@peter1138>Hmm, 90% chance of rain O_o
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>"UKEUP" is that intentionally close to "UKIP"?
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: there are some 30 odd parties up for vote in germany
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>of which like 13 made it in last time, after a high court overturned both a 5% and a 3% entry barrier
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>5% barrier is usual for elections in germany, to avoid a too fractured parliament. but the court said that argument doesn't count for the eu parliament
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>you need like 0.6% for one seat
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>(this number will be different for each EU member state, as the seats don't proportionally scale with population)
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13:56<Eddi|zuHause>story doesn't end there, because germany tried to push for an EU election reform, mandating a 3% barrier in each member state. which all the states passed, except for germany itself, where the smaller opposition parties went like: "are you crazy? we're not changing this so close to the election"
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13:58<Eddi|zuHause>(iirc this was bundled with some other stuff, like which countries would get which of the UK seats in case brexit actually happened)
14:02<frosch123>can the uk write in their last will, who should get the seats?
14:03<@peter1138>Off out now, see you later.
14:08<Samu>aha. the first game is complete! Convoy reaches £10M after bankrupting the first time
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14:17<Wolf01>Meh, disabled extensions again even with the extension fix
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14:39<spnda>yeah I was wondering why they all had that [m] behind their name
14:39<Samu>recessions have a much bigger impact on inflation enabled games
14:39<Samu>profits go right into negative
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14:55<frosch123>they were looking for [f]
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>to pay respects?
14:59<Wolf01>@seen __ln__
14:59<@DorpsGek>Wolf01: __ln__ was last seen in #openttd 43 weeks, 2 days, 22 hours, 54 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: <__ln__> TrueBrain: also, how hard can it be to figure out my comment COULD be related to a repo that was mentioned on the previous line?
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>i doubt he'll come back any time soon
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>after how that conversation ended...
15:02<Wolf01>Too much people ragequits
15:03<@LordAro>that wasn't a ragequit
15:03<@LordAro>that was TB banning him
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15:22<Samu>lol 155 days
15:22<Samu>inflation on loan makes these absurd results
15:24<Samu>this is the last time I test inflation
15:24<andythenorth>nielsm: yo
15:28<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #7572: GDI engine for font glyph rendering as a replacement for FreeType (take 2)
15:29<andythenorth>nielsm: so where's the draft docs again?
15:30<nielsm>the industry properties are not updated at all
15:31<nielsm>the produce block should be "finished"
15:31<andythenorth>ok, I read
15:31<nielsm>but I'm not sure if the example is too long
15:32<andythenorth>the nfo docs are all done iirc?
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15:34<andythenorth>example is a bit long, but I'm not minded to rewrite it
15:34<andythenorth>just warehouse_prod_cb1 switch is quite overwhelming
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15:36<andythenorth>ok so props, we deprecated some?
15:36<nielsm>yeah I was trying to think of something not entirely contrived or everything would be too simple to show off the important bits
15:36<andythenorth>not just deprecated, removed
15:37<andythenorth>so there's probably a wiki format for NML < 0.5
15:37<andythenorth>in the props table
15:37<nielsm>I couldn't figure out how to put a < in the template instantiation
15:37<andythenorth>or are old props just deleted?
15:37<andythenorth>I don't know
15:37<nielsm>< just showed up literally
15:38<nielsm>I think keep them for now
15:38<nielsm>since there's still nml 0.4 projects around
15:38<andythenorth>there's also a format for the OpenTTD version, I guess we need that
15:38<andythenorth>quite faffy isn't it :D
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15:38<andythenorth>also we need a version of
15:39<andythenorth>oh 0.5 is not released
15:39<andythenorth>ok I'm confused as usual :P
15:40<andythenorth>looks like 16 cargos is 0.4.5?
15:41<andythenorth>no changelog
15:41<nielsm>no idea :/
15:41<andythenorth>I'm going by dates
15:41<nielsm>but a syntax break like this warrants a bigger version increase
15:41<andythenorth>planetmaker is this thing on? :)
15:49<andythenorth>yeah I assumed it would be 0.5
15:49<andythenorth>assumptions = fail :P
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15:51<andythenorth>can't find an established format for deprecating
15:52<frosch123>andythenorth: it's just the old version
15:52<andythenorth>so just [0.4.4] or so?
15:52<frosch123> <- like htere for snowline_height
15:52<frosch123>0.2: foo
15:52<frosch123>0.3: bar
15:53<frosch123>also, i second that the new industry syntax needs a 0.5
15:53<andythenorth>and yes
15:53<andythenorth>I also found "As of NML 0.3, do not use this. Use cargo_[dis]allow_refit (see below) instead."
15:54<andythenorth>which is just plain text
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15:54<frosch123>i think nml 0.3 predates the wiki
15:54<frosch123>so, if noone found it, noone added the icon
15:54<andythenorth>ok let's do cargo_types first, then mark up deprecated
15:55*andythenorth prepares to battle with wiki
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15:59<andythenorth>is that accurate?
16:00<andythenorth>frosch123 so bump to 0.5?
16:00<andythenorth>the genie is already out of the bottle, but eh
16:02<frosch123>is there an explicit version in nml somewhere?
16:02<frosch123>i thought it's just the tag somewhen
16:02<andythenorth>I think it's just the tag afaict
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>the "major" version bump isn't really about the new syntax, but about the removal of the old syntax
16:02<andythenorth>might be I'll look
16:03<frosch123>well, i would wait for the tag until pm confirms that there is a farm :p
16:03<frosch123>no point in a tag that does not compile
16:03<frosch123>it may need new .devzone stuff or whatever
16:03<andythenorth>0.4.5 is already shipped though?
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>(which i still think is unnecessary, there wouldn't have needed to be put much effort in to keep the old syntax working)
16:04<frosch123>andythenorth: 0.4.5 is a year old?
16:04<andythenorth>did I misread dates?
16:04<andythenorth>that makes a lot more sense
16:04<andythenorth>0.5 then :D
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: iirc the plan was to make a maintenance release and a new bumped release around the time of the openttd release, but i guess that ship sailed...
16:06<andythenorth>ok is this better?
16:07<andythenorth>not all done yet
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16:08<Samu>I'm getting weird results
16:08<Samu>in 90 days a company makes £10M in value
16:08<Samu>due to loan+inflation
16:08<Samu>I think I'm gonna repeat this
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>btw, cat still hasn't moved from the chair...
16:09<Samu>man, i dunno what to do
16:10<Samu>re-do this round without inflation?
16:10<Samu>or keep at it
16:11<andythenorth>ouch wiki formatting bites :(
16:11<Samu>what the heck, i'll keep at it
16:11<nielsm>change the rule so the goal 10M is also affected by inflation?
16:11<Samu>that means i'd have to work on the GS
16:12<Samu>it's gonna be something on my to-do list
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16:14<andythenorth>nielsm: was there a more complex version of cargo_types with ratios per cargo?
16:14<andythenorth>or did I talk you out of that?
16:14<andythenorth>(for produced)
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i can't put my finger on it, but the layout/phrasing seems... off
16:14<Samu>i would have to re-do all rounds where I played with inflation on
16:15<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: refresh, to be sure you're not looking at a broken version
16:15<andythenorth>but yeah, writing docs, not my strong point
16:15<Samu>but indeed, these results are skewed
16:15<Samu>doesn't look fair
16:16<Samu>ok, stopping all openttds... what has to be done, has to be done
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>maybe make a separate table for entries removed in 0.5?
16:16<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: maybe
16:16<andythenorth>seems nobody really knows, so maybe we just invent new?
16:17<andythenorth>separately we need this for 0.5
16:17*andythenorth afk a bit
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>also, green doesn't seem to be a fitting colour for "removed in this version"
16:18<nielsm>andythenorth yes, there is the classic callback-less method of a input-to-output multiplier matrix
16:19<nielsm>accept_cargo("IORE", produce_cargo("STEL", 1), produce_cargo("SLAG", 0.25))
16:21<Samu>Round 5 and Round 12 had inflation turned on
16:21<Samu>must re-do them
16:21<andythenorth>I'd better add those
16:22<Samu>but for now, I'm restarting round 18, without inflation
16:22<Samu>so boring!
16:24<andythenorth>nielsm: I've updated cargo_type
16:24<andythenorth>not sure how to make it really clear
16:24<andythenorth>done > perfect
16:25<nielsm>yeah it's a complex expression that's not well suited for a small table cell to explain :P
16:26<nielsm>might be best to make a full section somewhere on the page to explain the expression syntax
16:26<nielsm>and well the rule isn't so much how many parts are to the array, but how many different cargo labels appear in it
16:27*andythenorth awaiting inspiration :)
16:27<andythenorth>I found it really easy to understand, in the final format, after all the initial debate
16:27<andythenorth>but hard to explain :P
16:28*Wolf01 going to bed
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16:36<frosch123>@mode +R
16:36-!-mode/#openttd [+R] by DorpsGek
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16:37<@LordAro>frosch123: not a spam attack
16:37<@LordAro>i don't think
16:37<@LordAro>just matrix people rejoining
16:38<debdog>ahh, hence the [m]
16:38<@LordAro>actually, i don't trust any of those nicks at all
16:38<@LordAro>and all from the same /96
16:39<@LordAro>i didn't notice them joining originally..
16:39<frosch123>i saw the movie, but no idea waht you mean with matrix
16:39<frosch123>but yes, they are all on the same node
16:39<FLHerne>LordAro: All from the same bridge isn't surprising, if it's really Matrix
16:40<frosch123>dockers or something
16:40<frosch123>is that the new mattermore?
16:40<@LordAro>something like that
16:40<FLHerne>frosch123: It's pretty much an attempt to recreate IRC, but modern
16:42<FLHerne>Massively multi-user chat, but with support for inline pictures, VOIP, webcams etc.
16:42<+glx>ah like discord
16:42<FLHerne>[alternatively, like a FOSS Skype protocol]
16:42<FLHerne>Or that
16:42<FLHerne>Anyway, you can bridge IRC <-> Matrix channels
16:42<FLHerne>So all the [m
16:45<FLHerne>] users are actually clients connected to some Matrix channel that's bridged to this one
16:49<nielsm>andythenorth: I wrote a full section on the cargo_types array
16:50<andythenorth>shall we add a final note
16:50<andythenorth>"for more complex production, see the produce cb"
16:51<nielsm>fixed some bad wikicode :P
16:53<andythenorth>thanks :)
16:55<nielsm>and also crosslinked "produce-block" in the callbacks list to the page describing produce blocks now :P
17:01<SpComb^>matrix should get some cloaking or reverse-dns action going for those IPv6 bridges, might look more legit
17:03<nielsm>andythenorth: there's also several of the variables that changed, but I'd rather wait to do those until tomorrow
17:05<andythenorth>I think it's bedtime
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17:33<dwfreed>LordAro: it is indeed matrix
17:34<@LordAro>dwfreed: nicks look very spammy though
17:35<dwfreed>it's not
17:35<dwfreed>they idle in here like everybody else
17:35<dwfreed>the bridge went down at 18:34 UTC; this is just the bridge coming back up
17:35<@LordAro>if you say so
17:35<@LordAro>they do look like random strings of letters & numbers though
17:35<dwfreed>rather than 2,000 reconnections at once, it does one ever 3 seconds
17:35<dwfreed>people have weird matrix usernames
17:36-!-mode/#openttd [-R] by LordAro
17:36<dwfreed>the bridge sets the username and homeserver as the realname
17:36<dwfreed>2019-05-08 21:36:12 [TrekWebOFTC] -!- jact[m] [~jactopeni@2001:470:1af1:101::36cc]
17:36<dwfreed>2019-05-08 21:36:12 [TrekWebOFTC] -!- ircname :
17:37<@LordAro>i'm more concerned by one like ad5twoknebor
17:37<dwfreed>2019-05-08 21:37:15 [TrekWebOFTC] -!- ad5twoknebor[m] [~ad5twokne@2001:470:1af1:101::33c7]
17:37<dwfreed>2019-05-08 21:37:15 [TrekWebOFTC] -!- ircname :
17:37<@LordAro>the shorter ones are indeed not suspicious
17:37<@LordAro>but regardless, i defer to your judgement :)
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17:46<Samu>remind me to re-do rounds 5 and 12 without inflation
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19:12<Artea> [00:12:24] [cesar[m] VERSION reply]: matrix-appservice-irc, part of the Network
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---Logclosed Thu May 09 00:00:32 2019