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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-05-11

---Logopened Sat May 11 00:00:35 2019
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02:15<@peter1138>Morning. Is it lunch? Twelveses? Elevenses?
02:15<@peter1138>Or just breakfast.
02:22<andythenorth>NRT rail crossings? o_O
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03:03<andythenorth>volume factor for cargos? o_O
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03:37<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] gprints opened issue #7585: Inverted scrolling unavailable
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03:47<@LordAro>maybe there should've been some sort of setting conversion for that
03:50<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor commented on issue #7585: Inverted scrolling unavailable
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04:07<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] gprints closed issue #7585: Inverted scrolling unavailable
04:07<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] gprints commented on issue #7585: Inverted scrolling unavailable
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04:43*andythenorth wonders if nml can add days to a date
04:44<andythenorth>might be an expression for that
04:45<@LordAro>andythenorth: maybe you should add one, if not :p
04:45<andythenorth>looks like vehicle prop 2A is days
04:46*andythenorth has all vehicles introduced on same day of year currently
04:46<andythenorth>needs fixed
05:11<Eddi|zuHause>NML can certainly do that
05:11<andythenorth>seems to work
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06:11<Wolf01>Hmmm, with fritz I can't even contact destiny 2 servers... at least with the other modem I could login and get dropped after 3 minutes
06:12<Eddi|zuHause>it wants to protect you from insanity
06:12<Eddi|zuHause>is it a true fritzbox or one of those branded/castrated ones?
06:12<Wolf01>I waited 5 months to play destiny 2 again...
06:12<Wolf01>A true one
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06:14<Wolf01>I suspect destiny 2 servers are really picky, I don't have any problem wit any other service
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>do they let you choose different gateways?
06:16<Wolf01>I can change everything, but I don't know what my isp supports
06:16<Eddi|zuHause>i mean the destiny 2 login page
06:17<Wolf01>I could try with US or Asia servers
06:17<Wolf01>I can't change any option from the game
06:18<Wolf01>I'm not even reaching the menu
06:19<Wolf01>Opened the 2 required ports, even enabled upnp for my pc, nothing changed
06:21<Eddi|zuHause>there's a guy who reported he could switch the network to his cell phone, connect, and then switch back to his regular network to play on
06:22<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise, i couldn't find any details how to select specific gateways
06:23<Wolf01>The only thing I know is that my isp uses port 3074 for remote router management, and that's one of the 2 required ports for destiny
06:24<Wolf01>But I had that problem only with the isp's modem, not with other ones
06:29<Wolf01>Did a full scan and repair of game files, seem to have worked
06:29<Wolf01>At least it passed the login
06:30<Eddi|zuHause>you forgot to defrag your hard disk
06:32<Wolf01>Ok, the STUN is even open now, it was type 2 before
06:43<@peter1138>LordAro, main issue is it's hidden as an advanced setting.
06:45*peter1138 pats his trusty Mikrotik routers.
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07:08<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc opened pull request #7586: Fix #7463: Promote scroll mode setting to basic category.
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>.. what a coincidence :p
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07:22<Wolf01>So, Germany started to build e-highways
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, but it would probably need some significant fraction of highways converted to actually take off
07:24<Eddi|zuHause>... and not some other country coming along building a slightly incompatible system
07:27<Wolf01>We have the same rail system everywhere in EU [citation needed], wouldn't we be able to come up with the same e-highway infrastructure?
07:28<Eddi|zuHause>... except we don't
07:28<Eddi|zuHause>we have incompatible rail gauges (spain, russia), incompatible loading gauges (britain), in compatible electrification systems (everywhere), ...
07:29<Eddi|zuHause>and we were close to having incompatible wagon coupling systems a bunch of times
07:29<Eddi|zuHause>and let's not talk about signalling systems
07:29<Eddi|zuHause>where even ETCS is still incompatible with ETCS everywhere
07:30<Wolf01>I was sarcastic, we don't even speak the same language in the same State
07:31<Eddi|zuHause>at least we solved the incompatible currency problem... oh wait
07:47<@peter1138>Managed to lose my keys this morning :(
07:48<@peter1138>Is it lunch time yet?
07:56<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN approved pull request #7586: Fix #7463: Promote scroll mode setting to basic category.
08:05<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #7586: Fix #7463: Promote scroll mode setting to basic category.
08:20<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7398: Fix #7371: Avoid dependency on foundations of town tile during saveload
08:50<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN approved pull request #7398: Fix #7371: Avoid dependency on foundations of town tile during saveload
08:53<@peter1138>Jesus Christ these Nazis are agressive.
08:53<@peter1138>Hell Knights are easier to kill.
08:53<@peter1138>Well, avoid.
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08:58<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #7398: Fix #7371: Avoid dependency on foundations of town tile during saveload
08:58<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh closed issue #7371: Kdtree is built too early in savegame loading process
09:08<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7516: Memory measurement and limits for Squirrel
09:12<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7576: Crash When bombing level crossing
09:13<@peter1138>Plasma rifle seems to be the way forward.
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09:17<@peter1138>Mmm, Turkish delight.
09:18<@peter1138>I probably ought to mow the lawn while it's not raining.
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>how is it not raining?
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09:32<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN approved pull request #7516: Memory measurement and limits for Squirrel
09:34<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #7516: Memory measurement and limits for Squirrel
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09:38<nielsm>and that was a savegame upgrade PR so every other of those needs rebasing again
09:39<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7575: Feature: Add industry production graph
09:42<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7575: Feature: Add industry production graph
09:44<nielsm>I usually switch volume measurements to m^3 and avoid the kilolitres measurement :P
09:45<@peter1138>I'm sure you do but not every done.
09:45<@peter1138>... does
09:47<@peter1138>There's also imperial vs metric tons.
09:47<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7353: Feature: Measure vehicle capacity utilisation efficiency
09:49<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7575: Feature: Add industry production graph
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10:11<@peter1138>That's the lawn done. Pretty quick at the moment, it's all shortish already.
10:17*peter1138 succumbs to a nice beer.
10:19<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7522: Add soundfont path for Flatpak
10:44<spnda>Wohoo new monitor
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10:49<snail_UES_>hi guys, Andy posted an interesting question on my thread…
10:49<snail_UES_>if I want to modify a wagon’s capacity, there are two ways to do it: (1) through the “Capacity” callback, or (2) through the “properties” callback, using the “capacity” property
10:49<snail_UES_>are there any differences between the two methods?
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10:53<@peter1138>Yes, capacity property is more efficient.
10:53<@peter1138>You should only use the callback if you want to make the capacity change based on other things.
10:58<snail_UES_>ok, thanks
10:59<snail_UES_>I do make capacity change based on a few things… but I’m still using capacity property to do that
10:59<snail_UES_>I feel it simplifies my code a lot (especially because I also have to change loading amount)
10:59<@peter1138>Eh? If you're using the capacity property, it can't change.
11:00<@peter1138>I'll rephrase that. If you're not using the capacity/properties callback, it can't change.
11:01<@peter1138>I misread your question :(
11:01<@peter1138>There's a capacity property that should be used for fix capacity.
11:01<@peter1138>The callbacks should only be used if capacity should change.
11:05<Samu>round 18 finished, now without inflation
11:05<Samu>and now, redoing round 5
11:05<Samu>without inflation
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11:06<Eddi|zuHause>there's two callbacks
11:06<@peter1138>Hmm. There's a refit capacity callback.
11:06<@peter1138>And the CB36 callback.
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>one is subject to the default capacity multiplier for goods/mail etc.
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>the other is not
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>i forgot which one is which
11:08<@peter1138>I don't see two. Only refit and CB36.
11:08<Eddi|zuHause>that's two
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>so CB15 is not subject to the multiplier, CB36 is
11:14<snail_UES_>petern1138: I’m using CB36
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>snail_UES_: with CB36, capacity will double if you refit to goods
11:14<snail_UES_>ah I see. When doing this, I never refit passengers or mail. Only other goods
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11:14<snail_UES_>oh, an not goods either
11:15<snail_UES_>only other types of cargo
11:15<snail_UES_>so it will be the same?
11:15<Eddi|zuHause>i think so
11:15<snail_UES_>that’s why, in the game, the two methods had the same final effects
11:21<frosch123>the only difference between cb36 and cb15 are the capacity multipliers
11:21<frosch123>cb36 is meant for unknown/general cargos. cb15 is meant for control freaks
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>if snail is not a control freak, then i don't know who is :p
11:22<frosch123> <- more details there
11:23<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: i am pretty sure cb36 capacity was added by someone not being aware of cb15
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>i like the clarifying use of graphs on that page
11:23<frosch123> <- 10 year old summary, how crappy cb36 and 15 were in old ttdp and ottd
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i'm not convinced that is the case
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>(note: i was being ironic. that page is horrible documentation)
11:27<@peter1138>Was it me or Lakie?
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11:27<snail_UES_>CB36 capacity is useful because it can be set in parallel as loading amount… usually the two get changed together to be consistent
11:28<snail_UES_>otherwise I’d have to change capacities through CB15, and then use CB36 anyway to change loading amount
11:28<@peter1138>Yeah, prefer CB36, I think.
11:28<snail_UES_>CB36 allows to pick two birds with a stone
11:29<@peter1138>Not really, it's still two separate calls within the game.
11:29<snail_UES_>ah… well, at least code-wise, they’re in the same statement
11:29<@peter1138>But efficiency-wise it is better as you are only checking for CB36 instead of both CB15 and CB36.
11:30<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor updated pull request #7575: Feature: Add industry production graph
11:30<frosch123>peter1138: when cb15 succeeds, cb36 is not called. so no difference in efficiency
11:31<snail_UES_>cb36 would still be called for loading amount, though
11:31<@peter1138>Except for every time the game looks up graphics it'll go through the test for callbacks.
11:31<frosch123>(both are called in depot only, so efficiency is super-no-pointo)
11:31<Eddi|zuHause>the amount of callbacks you check in the callback switch does not affect efficiency...
11:32<snail_UES_>well it’s more efficient code-wise, so it’s more than enough for me :p
11:32<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor commented on pull request #7575: Feature: Add industry production graph
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>we should add a JIT compiler so it can optimize switches during execution :)
11:34<frosch123>there actually already is
11:34<frosch123>switch cases are reordered and merged to enable binary search for large switches
11:35<frosch123>which may imply that few large switches are better than many small switches
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>but a true JIT compiler might optimize over several switches?
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>like, avoid redundant calculations, and stuff
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12:38<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor updated pull request #7575: Feature: Add industry production graph
12:43<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor commented on pull request #7575: Feature: Add industry production graph
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12:46<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor updated pull request #7575: Feature: Add industry production graph
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14:47<andythenorth>vehicle variants? :)
14:47<andythenorth>or DOOM
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15:01<frosch123>wasn't that some concept art by V?
15:01<frosch123>or was it yours?
15:07<V453000>it was my concept train set, the first one after nuts
15:07<V453000>obscenely oversized machinery
15:07<V453000>iz ded
15:08<frosch123>izded is 5 letters, not suitable for grfid
15:08<frosch123>luckily "grfid" is 5 letters as well
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15:17<V453000>BTW from quick tests by 1. removing the fancy drawing logic from wagons (it only applied in super extreme and not necesary case), 2. making a single graphics switcher per engine, therefore removing all the "+ count_veh_id" and removing some count_veh_ids and other switches, I'm pretty much back to the performance that earlier NUTS was getting
15:18<V453000>I guess it could still be better if I did a big rewrite and functionality changes, but for now that's a nice result :)
15:18<V453000>I need to do more code splitting, at the moment I finished 1 engine, but for testing that's representative already
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15:18<V453000>a single graphics switch for 1 vehicle is 10k lines though :D
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15:20<frosch123>V453000: can you get away with using "position_in_consist"?
15:20<V453000>instead of the count_veh_id?
15:20<frosch123>basically, variables with parameter like "count_veh_id(PARAMETER)" are way more expensive than those without
15:21<V453000>yeah that's what I assumed, and now I have seen the effect of that myself :)
15:21<V453000>I can't for now
15:21<V453000>but I might do a bigger NUTS rewrite somewhat soon with which I could remove them
15:23<andythenorth>what's the compile time though?
15:23<V453000>don't care, acceptable
15:24<V453000>it's actually decent as the graphics are cached
15:24<V453000>it'll get worse, I guess I'll need to add significant amount of lines
15:24<frosch123>andythenorth: 3 seconds probably
15:25<V453000>counted about 30
15:26<V453000>I can somehow measure it right?
15:26<V453000>yeah there was some nmlc verbose command
15:26<andythenorth>30s that's very quick
15:26<frosch123>nmlc --verbosity=4 or something
15:26<andythenorth>yeah verbose=4 or something
15:27<V453000>there's also something for not showing the errors right?
15:27<V453000>white pixels and unreferenced blocks
15:28<frosch123>you can also "tag" sprites which are supposed to contain white and animated colors
15:29<V453000>well I'm not sure right now which ones are actually truly correct :)
15:29<frosch123> <- WHITE and ANIM
15:30<V453000>looks like a pain to do at this point :D
15:30<V453000>hm i guess the verbosity is overridden by --quiet
15:30<V453000>parsing 6.4s
15:30<frosch123>well, i guess "| grep -vi warning" won't work :p
15:30<V453000>preprocessing 16.2
15:30<V453000>generating actions 3.5
15:31<V453000>collecting real sprites 0.7
15:31<V453000>writing output 3.8
15:31<+glx>frosch123: in mingw it should ;)
15:31<V453000>so yeah about 30s total
15:34*andythenorth very jealous
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15:37<V453000>isn't your compile like 1.4s andy?
15:37<andythenorth>maybe it's time to refactor Horse
15:37<andythenorth>no, it's like 1m10s
15:38<V453000>also I'm about to add a bunch of code so you just wait :D
15:38<andythenorth>I'm considering removing a lot
15:38<andythenorth>frosch123 so providing lots of vehicles sprites for many cargos bloats the spritecache?
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15:40<@peter1138>20:20 < frosch123> basically, variables with parameter like "count_veh_id(PARAMETER)" are way more expensive than those without
15:40<@peter1138>Hmm, so, persistent storage for vehicles?
15:41<@peter1138>Calculate once in the depot, use the result for drawing
15:44<andythenorth>depot CB?
15:44<frosch123>i think those variables are mostly used for the visuals
15:45<frosch123>so i think changing ottd to only resolve visible sprites is a better solution
15:45<@peter1138>I probably had a patch for that...
15:46<@peter1138>But, zoomed out...?
15:46<frosch123>currently it resolves the sprites when vehicles move
15:46<@peter1138>Yes, I know.
15:46<frosch123>instead it should only invalidte them
15:47<frosch123>some issue was, that ottd stored the top-left corner of the sprite in the vehicle-position hash
15:47<frosch123>i can't remember whether i changed that 2 years ago, or whether it was unfinished
15:47<@peter1138>How about detecting if tick_counter is used, and if not, caching the resolved spritegroup?
15:47<frosch123>but position hash should use the center x/y position which does not depend on sprite size
15:48<@peter1138>Something else about using the sprite size to mark the viewport dirty.
15:48<frosch123>we already have maximum vehicle sprite size computed to determine depot grid size
15:49<frosch123>same can be used to decide whether a veihicle is possibly visible
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15:57<@peter1138>So we need V453000's slow NUTS and his savegame to test ;p
15:59<@peter1138>Hmm, caching the spritegroup I guess is more hassle, loads of other variables.
16:00<frosch123>the realism control freaks already complain about the cached recoloring
16:04<Markk>Hello everyone, how can I force the to save the config I've made in the settings? Just by closing and opening the game again?
16:04<Markk>My computer crashed without me being able to close OpenTTD properly, and the changes I'd done in settings was restored to default again.
16:04<frosch123>pretty sure there is also a console command
16:05<Markk>Oh, that would be neat
16:06<Markk>Any idea on what it could be or how I can find the command? :)
16:07<Markk>It took me about 3 minutes to get the settings to what I want, so it's a real time saver. So thank you frosch123!
16:26*andythenorth wonders if Horse makes OpenTTD slow
16:27<V453000>just build 700 trains :P
16:27<V453000>from my current experience if you're not going apeshit on count_veh_id 20 times on every single 4/8 vehicle, it's probably not too bad
16:29<V453000>Elapsed time: 0h:00m:33s
16:29<V453000>dam, .bat timestamp :D
16:35<andythenorth>yeah I do use that though
16:59<andythenorth>? :)
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17:05<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: well, depends on what you're trying to do, but you could maybe use STORE_TEMP to slightly reduce it? :)
17:13<andythenorth>MOAR FASTER
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---Logclosed Sun May 12 00:00:36 2019