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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-05-18

---Logopened Sat May 18 00:00:45 2019
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01:12<Corns>Is 1.9.2 a planned release? What features will be pushed to it and how soon do i have to make a PR to get in?
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01:25<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Hexus-One commented on issue #7430: Vehicle waiting at station affects cargo age rating even if it did not pick up cargo https://git.io/fj8lW
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02:22<andythenorth>moin
02:22<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] MingweiSamuel commented on issue #7430: Vehicle waiting at station affects cargo age rating even if it did not pick up cargo https://git.io/fj8lP
02:33<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] MingweiSamuel updated pull request #7595: Possible fix for #7430: when train visits station, only reset time_since_pickup if has room to load https://git.io/fjlA7
02:37<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] MingweiSamuel updated pull request #7595: Possible fix for #7430: when train visits station, only reset time_since_pickup if has room to load https://git.io/fjlA7
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02:51<andythenorth>so for docs, is RAIL 'Standard Gauge' ?
02:51<andythenorth>or is it 'Normal' ?
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03:40<andythenorth>oof I now have to learn to draw steam trains :D
03:40<andythenorth>never did that before
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04:06<Eddi|zuHause>what did you do before? steal them from someone more competent?
04:09<andythenorth>Dan drew them for me
04:09<andythenorth>so yeah
04:10<Artea>Date: 5057
04:10<Artea>Years: 3073
04:13<andythenorth>hmm
04:13<andythenorth>where is V453000
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04:16<Artea>~bah
04:16<Artea>my laptop cannot hold OpenTTD anymore :(
04:16<Artea>is freezing :S
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04:51<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> so for docs, is RAIL 'Standard Gauge' ? <-- needs more context
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05:03<Wolf01>o/
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05:15<Wolf01>https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aA3LG3E_700b.jpg heh
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05:16<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I could give you context, but I no longer have a way to publish docs :)
05:16<andythenorth>one problem always seems linked to another
05:16<andythenorth>is there a way to publish HTML any more?
05:17<andythenorth>it used to be just 'rent a server with sftp and apache'
05:17<Eddi|zuHause>i don't understand your problems...
05:17<andythenorth>there are html docs
05:17<andythenorth>they need to describe the rail types for a vehicle
05:17<andythenorth>you can't see them
05:18<Eddi|zuHause>no, i mean the build and publication process has not changed, just the repo url... why can't you connect them for a year now?
05:18<andythenorth>oh because I broke devzone
05:19<andythenorth>in one case
05:19<andythenorth>and because there's no way to publish to devzone from Azure in the other case
05:22<andythenorth>hmm buying web hosting is complicated
05:22<andythenorth>I don't want cpanels and all that crap
05:26<andythenorth>I no longer understand the internet industry :D
05:26*andythenorth considering starting a farm
05:27<dwfreed>rent a Linode (or get Linode to sponsor a machine for openttd)
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05:28<andythenorth>looks simpler
05:28<andythenorth>not renewable electricity though :)
05:33*Artea on The Offspring - Walla Walla
05:36*Artea on Eskimo - Party Pooper
05:36<Artea>who is the party pooper in UK ? :P
05:37<Artea>the police!
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05:45<@peter1138>Hi
05:45<@peter1138>That's the morning ride done with.
05:47<andythenorth>how far?
05:48<Artea>hi
05:58<@peter1138>Not much
05:58<@peter1138>53 miles
06:00<Eddi|zuHause>that's not even a tour de france etappe
06:04<dwfreed>the shortest stage of the tour de france that is not a time trial is 63 miles
06:04<dwfreed>so not far off
06:06<@peter1138>As I said, not much.
06:06<Eddi|zuHause>i'd maybe take the median etappe
06:07<dwfreed>my personal record for walking distance is 26 miles, so you doubled that, at least :)
06:07<@peter1138>It's still 1600 carolies of more food I can eat ;p
06:07<Eddi|zuHause>i'd also use metric
06:08<dwfreed>just multiply these numbers by 1.609
06:09<nakki>wait, wasn't peter in the uk? i thought you guys (mostly) used the metric nowadays?
06:11<dwfreed>"Most British people still use imperial units in everyday life for distance (miles, yards, feet and inches) and volume in some cases (especially milk and beer in pints) but rarely for canned or bottled soft drinks or petrol."
06:12<Eddi|zuHause>will there be a metrexit?
06:14<nakki>ah, so the uk is pretending even harder to be an island in the middle of the atlantic instead of a couple km off the french coast than i thought
06:17<@LordAro>we have a specific EU exception for selling milk & beer in pints, rather than litres
06:17<nakki>hah
06:17<@LordAro>peter1138: nicely done. i'm taking today off
06:18<@LordAro>and i also tend to prefer imperial units for distance & speed
06:19<nakki>i guess it's a matter of what you're used to
06:20<@LordAro>helps that all the road signs are in miles
06:27<@peter1138>And because it was little early and drizzly, is was a solo ride, cos nobody else in the group turned up.
06:30<andythenorth>do you get bored?
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06:49<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Berbe commented on issue #7311: Wrong determination of personal directory https://git.io/fj84B
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06:49<Beerbelott>Hello
06:50<Beerbelott>Issi #7311 has been closed by stalebot, but PR #7339 still refers to it
06:50<Beerbelott>Issue*
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06:54<andythenorth>well
06:54<andythenorth>it seems drawing steam trains is mostly easy
06:54<andythenorth>the shapes are so irregular that the angles don't have to match up precisely
06:56<@LordAro>Beerbelott: as long as the PR is still open, i wouldn't worry too much
06:57<andythenorth>94% Horse
07:05<Beerbelott>LordAro: OK thx. It just seemed strange
07:05<Beerbelott>Have a nice day y'all :)
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07:45<Gabda>hi
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08:02<andythenorth>quak
08:02<frosch123>hoi
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08:10<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened pull request #7597: Fix #7594: Max speed rendered incorrectly in road vehicle purchase window when using original acceleration model https://git.io/fj8Bt
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08:24<andythenorth>is it unwise to require GH creds when running make?
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08:34<andythenorth>hmm you'd have to have my creds
08:34<andythenorth>not good
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09:22<@peter1138>Why would you need github credentials?
09:22<andythenorth>trying to figure out publishing
09:22<andythenorth>GH pages wants a special headless branch
09:22<andythenorth>to which one commits one's docs
09:22<andythenorth>so to do that on CI means creds
09:23<andythenorth>this does not sound good
09:23<@peter1138>You don't publish on CI though.
09:23<@peter1138>That would be turning CI into CD.
09:27<andythenorth>so what publishes? o_O
09:28<andythenorth>can't remember if Azure generates any useful artefacts
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09:40*andythenorth ignores CI, CD
09:40<andythenorth>it's brainfuck :)
09:42<kiwitree>hi
09:45<andythenorth>frosch123 would it be better to maintain bundles, or replace it, or something else?
09:47<kiwitree>I'm making newgrf train set
09:47<frosch123>i would setup jenklins with docker on devzone and keep bundles as it is
09:47<kiwitree>and I found that accessing var41 via var61 in callback 36 is not allowed
09:47<frosch123>i think hosted ci/cd is too complicated, if you have many small projects
09:47<frosch123>gh is already a pain with many repositories
09:48<kiwitree>Is there any reason for not allowing access to var41 in callback 36?
09:48<frosch123>noone wants to convifgure branch protection/commit rules for all the tiny projects like musa, nml, ...
09:48<andythenorth>no
09:48<kiwitree>I think it does not cause circular dependencies
09:49<frosch123>kiwitree: it's not about 41. 61 is disabled for cb36
09:50<andythenorth>and would we use jenkins on devzone with GH?
09:50<andythenorth>not Azure Pipelines?
09:51<frosch123>repositories on gh are fine
09:51<frosch123>they are no shared resource, most are worked on by single people
09:51<andythenorth>so it's just jenkins configuration?
09:51<andythenorth>to set the remote repo?
09:52<frosch123>yes, pm already does that for some repos
09:53<frosch123>no idea how well pm knows the jenkins vm on devzone, so no idea whether he can maintain/upgrade it
09:53<frosch123>but to me both ottd and devzone have too deep history in their infrastructure
09:53<kiwitree>then
09:53<frosch123>whenever you look for something, you will find 3 earlier implementation which are no longer active
09:54<kiwitree>is there any plan for allowing it?
09:54<frosch123>so, if you are not already familar with it, it may be easier to restart :p
09:54<frosch123>kiwitree: no, noone wants to debug newgrf
09:54<frosch123>newgrf people can't do it themself, and others don't want to
09:55<frosch123>var61 for property callback is a road to hell
09:55<kiwitree>hmm
09:55<kiwitree>ok, thanks
09:55<andythenorth>it shouldn't be needed :)
09:56<andythenorth>what case do you have?
09:56*andythenorth wonders about maintaining jenkins vs. just using Azure Pipelines
09:56<andythenorth>Azure Pipelines annoyed hell out of me, but once I learnt it, it worked very quickly
09:57<andythenorth>but it would have to be given creds to publish
09:57<andythenorth>does Jenkins have the devzone creds?
09:58<andythenorth>bundles / devzone /s
09:58<frosch123>they just have a shared disk, so yes?
09:59<frosch123>you have some controller on the outside, run the compiler in some jail, and then copy the artefacts on the outside again
09:59<frosch123>jenkins with docker would be the same. checkout the sources, run docker to compile it, copy results to bundles
10:00<frosch123>checkout and publish does not run unknown Makefiles etc.
10:00*andythenorth wonders if AP can hit a webhook on completion
10:00<andythenorth>with the URL to the artefacts in the payload
10:03<Gabda>Can I ask someone to have a look at PR 7025? It is kind of lost at the end of the PR list.
10:06<andythenorth>we should close a bunch
10:07<@peter1138>Okay but I need to mow my lawn.
10:15*andythenorth wonders
10:15<andythenorth>how to do a carging aging bonus for freight cargos
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10:24<andythenorth>bonuses have to be implemented as maluses
10:24<andythenorth>so if I want to bonus refrigerated wagons
10:24<andythenorth>I need to malus food etc in box cars
10:25<andythenorth>that means keeping a list of all cargos
10:25<andythenorth>and using CB36 to malus some
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10:29<andythenorth>wonder if I can reliably do it on class?
10:31<andythenorth>maybe I malus *all* vehicles
10:31<andythenorth>then change all FIRS cargos to halve delay rate
10:31<andythenorth>then applying the bonus to just some vehicles will work
10:32<kiwitree>andythenorth: I need the number of cars until next engine
10:33<andythenorth>do you know the engine IDs?
10:33<kiwitree>like [engine] [wagon] [wagon] [engine] [wagon] [wagon], I need 2
10:34<kiwitree>yes, I know the engine ids
10:39<kiwitree>for wagons, it's okay because var41 can do that, but for engines I can't get the number of cars until next engine
10:39<andythenorth>not sure you can do this in cb36
10:41<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: can you think of an implementation of a cargo aging bonus?
10:41<andythenorth>for freight, that doesn't require a list of all known cargos?
10:44<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] cosminCos opened issue #7598: openttd: symbol lookup error: /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libiculx.so.60: undefined symbol: _ZNK6icu_6012LayoutEngine14getCharIndicesEPiiR11LEErrorCode https://git.io/fj8Ro
10:45<@LordAro>hmm, ICU
10:45<@LordAro>incompatible with whatever version of ICU that is? 60?
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10:59<@peter1138>We don't make 19.04 builds.
11:01<@LordAro>"teminal~ openttd" implies it's on the path, which means it's probably been installed via apt
11:01<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN closed issue #7598: openttd: symbol lookup error: /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libiculx.so.60: undefined symbol: _ZNK6icu_6012LayoutEngine14getCharIndicesEPiiR11LEErrorCode https://git.io/fj8Ro
11:01<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on issue #7598: openttd: symbol lookup error: /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libiculx.so.60: undefined symbol: _ZNK6icu_6012LayoutEngine14getCharIndicesEPiiR11LEErrorCode https://git.io/fj8Rd
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11:02<@LordAro>https://packages.ubuntu.com/disco/openttd depends on icu63, should be fine...
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11:02<@LordAro>perhaps they've just taken one of the older packages?
11:03<@LordAro>yeah, looks like it, that 18.04 depends on icu60
11:03<@LordAro>perhaps the version should be more restrictive?
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11:07<@peter1138>What version where?
11:08<@LordAro>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/os/debian/control#L14 wherever those come from
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11:10<Corns>Is 1.9.2 a planned release?
11:10<@peter1138>It should already depend on libicu60.
11:10<@peter1138>Possibly.
11:11<Corns>Just wondering how quickly ishould develop any patches i have in mind
11:11<@peter1138>Patches for what?
11:12<@peter1138>1.9.2 will not contain any new features.
11:12<Corns>Like, any PR ideas i have
11:12<Corns>To develop for trunk
11:12<Corns>Ah ok
11:12<Corns>Just bugfixes?
11:13<@LordAro>yes
11:14<@LordAro>1.10 is currently expected to be sometime later this year
11:14<Corns>Ooh sweet okay
11:17<andythenorth>lots of windows are now odd
11:17<andythenorth>odd padding and so on
11:17<Corns>Is this with 2x gui scale?
11:17<andythenorth>"screenshots or it's not true" :P
11:17<andythenorth>yes
11:17<Corns>Yeah ive noticwd
11:17<Corns>Im on quad scale for my 4k screen
11:18<andythenorth>the aspect ratios are weird too
11:18<Corns>And the rail toolbar padding is paper rhin
11:19*andythenorth BBL
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11:19<Corns>Are there any irc clients that are "always on" and can save the chat history while I'm away?
11:19<Corns>Or do i have to leave my computer on 24/7
11:20<+michi_cc>@logs
11:20<@DorpsGek>michi_cc: https://webster.openttdcoop.org/index.php?channel=openttd
11:22<Corns>:0 ty
11:25<Heiki>Corns: apart from the logs, there’s at least three possibilities: a) leave your computer on, b) find a shell provider (there are free ones, but I don’t know whether they’re any good), c) use Matrix (e.g. https://riot.im/app/), where this channel is available as #_oftc_#openttd:matrix.org
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11:42<@peter1138>Corns, there is no trunk. There is only master.
11:42*peter1138 delinks Strava from Fitbit. I'm fairly use it is doubling carolies for any activity.
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12:02<Corns343434>Heiki: thank you :)
12:02<Corns343434>@peter1138: isnt that the same thing
12:04<Heiki>you’re welcome (: that Matrix thingy needs some fiddling around at first, but after that it is quite reliable (and free)
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12:14<corns_mcgowan[m]>Helloo
12:16-!-Gumle2 [AdiIRC@80-196-34-14-cable.dk.customer.tdc.net] has quit []
12:20<corns_mcgowan[m]>Does #/r/openttd have a matrix room too?
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12:20<nakki>doubt it
12:25<corns_mcgowan[m]>All g
12:28<@peter1138>Is what the same thing?
12:34<corns_mcgowan[m]>Trunk -> master peter1138
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12:45<@peter1138>No, it's not the same thing.
12:45<@peter1138>Trunk is specifically an SVN convention, where files are placed in a subdirectory in the svn repository called... "trunk"
12:46<@peter1138>master is a git convention, and is just the main branch.
12:52<Corns[m]>I see
12:52<Corns[m]>I will use both terms interchangeably:)
12:57<@peter1138>If you're still using svn, sure. But we don't, so that's wrong.
13:03<Corns[m]>okay master
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13:26<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #7597: Fix #7594: Max speed rendered incorrectly in road vehicle purchase window when using original acceleration model https://git.io/fj8EN
13:31<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #7597: Fix #7594: Max speed rendered incorrectly in road vehicle purchase window when using original acceleration model https://git.io/fj8Bt
13:31<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 closed issue #7594: Max speed string dparam set incorrectly in road vehicle purchase window when using original acceleration model https://git.io/fjlii
13:32<nakki>honestly surprises me to find people in 2019 who program but haven't gotten used to git conventions
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13:47<andythenorth>o/
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13:55<@LordAro>nakki: git is by no means the only VCS used
13:55<andythenorth>do refrigerated wagons etc really need a cargo aging bonus?
13:55<andythenorth>or is it enough that they are different colours?
13:56<andythenorth>I've run a test again, and confirmed again that cargo age period does nothing useful
13:56<nakki>LordAro, it is p much the industry standard tho
13:56<@LordAro>ha
13:56<@LordAro>not even close
13:56<nakki>well, at least in my city's comp sci circles svn is considered pretty outdated and archaic
13:57<@LordAro>i didn't say it wasn't ;)
13:57<@LordAro>i use svn at work
13:57<@LordAro>i know a few places that use SourceSafe
13:57<nakki>i do, too, but it's something that's constantly complained about internally
13:58<nakki>isn't sourcesafe uh
13:58<nakki>discontinued?
13:59<@LordAro>when did that ever stop anyone?
13:59<@LordAro>but i think i mean Foundation Server anyway
13:59<nakki>ah
14:00<@LordAro>but still, i would estimate about half of my developer colleagues have never used git before
14:01<nakki>wow
14:01<@LordAro>let's face it, svn is so much simpler to use
14:02<nakki>don't think i personally know any developer who hasn't used git
14:02<@LordAro>and as much as i'd like to use git, teaching everyone would likely fall on me :)
14:02<Corns[m]>q: is this intended behaviour? https://i.imgur.com/7dUOExA.png from citymania 1.9.1 client, airport shows max speed as 73km/h even though my planes have 952km/h max speed
14:04<@LordAro>nakki: be aware of the "echo chamber" that comp sci circles can be - you're very biased towards people who are actively interested in learning new technologies, and not those who don't want/care to do any programming outside of work
14:05<nakki>yeah i was just thinking about that, people i work with tend to be at the younger end of the spectrum, and most of my friends are from the natural sciences campus of the local university
14:05<@LordAro>bet you all like nodejs, rust & go as well :p
14:05<nakki>sadly, i work with legacy java :(
14:05<nakki>at least it's java 8 though, so i can stream away
14:06<nakki>i'd probably do rust, kotlin or scala if i could freely choose though :P
14:06<@LordAro>how very hipster ;)
14:06<@LordAro>i think the bits of Java we have are still on 7, due to eclipse3
14:06<nakki>heh
14:07<@LordAro>my day to day is Ada though, so i always win these sort of contests ;)
14:07<nakki>hah
14:07<@LordAro>it is Ada2012 though, which is nice
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>Ada, the language that doesn't let you program ANYTHIG?
14:17<@LordAro>hmm? works well enough for me
14:18<@LordAro>very easy to pick up, coming from C/C++
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't actually tried... just the bits i've seen were always about "this is more strict in Ada"...
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14:50<Corns[m]>What are your thoughts on autofund being added to master?
14:53<Corns[m]>Like, the autofund button found in the btpro, n-ice, citymania clients
14:53<@LordAro>assume that no one knows what that is
14:54<Corns[m]>Oh okay
14:56<Corns[m]>It's a button that automatically funds new buildings for towns (ie it presses "fund new buildings" every 3 months)- you can toggle it on/off per town
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see much use for that outside these highly specialized city builder games
14:58<Corns[m]>I was thinking that too, but i realised i use them to boost city growth when i want to build larger airports
14:59<Corns[m]>Maybe we could at least let the current fund buildings function simply add to the counter instead of resetting it to 3 months?
15:00<frosch123>what, automatic larva injection?
15:02<Corns[m]>Wait what do you mean larva
15:04<frosch123>when you played zerg in sc2 wol, you would have to do a specific action (inject larva) like every minute
15:04<Corns[m]>Ohh HAHA
15:04<frosch123>later it was changed to do that automatically, and people said it was for noobs
15:04<Corns[m]>Ive never played sc2 but my friends have
15:04<frosch123>no idea how it is today
15:05<Corns[m]>But yeah i reckon it would be a nice change for openttd considering its more casual
15:06<@LordAro>if you "need" to fund new buildings every 3 months, i'm not sure you're playing casually
15:06<Corns[m]>For people who don't want to build 4-5 bus stops in a town just to force growth, they can rely on that instead
15:06<@LordAro>that's not exactly playing the game
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think you're looking at the right target audience
15:06<Corns[m]>Hm wdym?
15:11<Corns[m]>You're right, I wouldn't call myself an average player
15:12<Corns[m]>what would an average player look for in the game?
15:13<Corns[m]>Also when we add features, who do we cater for? I feel that not all features cater for all players either, as in some can be considered advanced features I guess
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>i'm having two issues with this: including this button would a) send a message to the players that this is actually something you should do, or you're playing the game wrong, and b) the game suffers from too many (somewhat hidden) options and overloaded UI
15:14<frosch123>https://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ_development#What_are_the_goals_of_the_offical_branch.3F <- there are at least 4 groups of players
15:18<andythenorth>usually I need smaller cities :P
15:19<frosch123>fund deportation?
15:19<andythenorth>auto demolish?
15:19<Xaroth>Small tactical nukes?
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>in the event of the cold war turning hot, the west had planned to use "mini nukes" to cut bridges and stuff so the russians couldn't advance quickly
15:24<frosch123>how does that help agains hoover tanks?
15:24<frosch123>oh, right, they do not work on water
15:24<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lun-class_ekranoplan
15:25<andythenorth>I always found the idea of a ground war between nuclear powers odd
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: novelty items which only one was ever built does not usually make for a good weapon in an actual war :p
15:26<andythenorth>80000 T-34s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-34
15:26<frosch123>andythenorth: why? both have companies who want to sell weapons and ammunition
15:26<andythenorth>frosch123: my assumption (probably wrong) is that as soon as you see enough tanks on the move, you just do a debilitating first strike on the other side
15:27<andythenorth>and of course, they know you'll do that, so they have to strike you
15:27<andythenorth>so if there's enough cause to have tanks cross the borders, the missiles will go
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it was rumored that the russians have some 2000 odd T-34 from WWII leftovers stored in some mountain, ready to go
15:28<andythenorth>probably fine
15:29<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: interested in a maintainance job? it's future proof
15:29<frosch123>it's mostly oiling and moving the parts
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>they also had some captured german steam engines outside Kaliningrad, ready to go on the european standard gauge
15:30<frosch123>and caring for the cats, who hunt the mice
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>i believe those are scrapped now
15:31<andythenorth>the cats?
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15:47<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly sure there are no cats around who witnessed WWII
15:48<andythenorth>hmm
15:48<andythenorth>so which cargos should I malus for cargo age period?
15:48<andythenorth>in freight wagons
15:52<Samu>round 23 finished
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16:10<Eddi|zuHause>you make a list of known cargos that fit in each category, and unknown cargos you make some guess based on cargo class?
16:11<andythenorth>that's the implementation yes
16:11<andythenorth>how to choose the cargos?
16:12<frosch123>every wagon can carry every cargo? some have just huge penalties? :p
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>fair dice roll?
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>(return 4)
16:12<andythenorth>an alternative is to just to drop the idea that, e.g. refrigerated wagons have any gameplay purpose
16:12<andythenorth>it's much easier to do that
16:13<andythenorth>I suspect I'm only using cargo age period because the spec suggests it
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>isn't there a refrigerated cargo class?
16:16<andythenorth>there is, but I've extended the idea of reduced cargo aging to other types of cargo
16:16<andythenorth>which doesn't work
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>then scrap that extended idea
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>oberhümer had this idea for CETS that specific wagons get improved aging for all the cargos they can load, and generic wagons don't
16:21<andythenorth>I had that idea too
16:21<andythenorth>it's not possible, in any sensible way
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>how?
16:22<andythenorth>there's no implementation that supports it except either (1) on pathological maps (2) by tracking a very large list of known cargos, and doing some odd malus to generic wagons
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>refrigerated wagon can load all refrigerated cargo. closed wagon can load (almost) all cargos
16:22<andythenorth>1 or 2
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>hopper can load all pourable cargos, open wagon can load (almost) all cargos
16:23<andythenorth>yes ^^ that makes sense
16:23<andythenorth>that also makes sense
16:23<andythenorth>but there's no possible non-complicated implementation of cargo aging for that idea
16:23<andythenorth>unless I haven't thought of it yet :P
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>why?
16:24<andythenorth>because cargo aging relies on malus, not bonus
16:24<andythenorth>so to give some wagons a 'bonus' the malus is applied to the others
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>refrigerated wagon gets one setting, closed wagon gets another setting. all independent from cargo
16:24<andythenorth>what setting though?
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>fair dice roll?
16:25<andythenorth>I mean which newgrf prop?
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>the aging period?
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>other option would be capacity
16:25<andythenorth>presumably https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Vehicles/Trains#Custom_cargo_ageing_period_.282B.29
16:26<andythenorth>and the dice is re-rolled per game?
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>the specific wagon can load more
16:26<andythenorth>per vehicle? :D
16:26<andythenorth>aging period is randomised on build :P
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see why it needs to be complicated
16:27<andythenorth>you're aware that prop 2B can't give any bonus?
16:27<andythenorth>only malus
16:27<andythenorth>for practical purposes, on practical map sizes, with practical train speeds
16:28<andythenorth>and conventional cargo age curves
16:28<andythenorth>so the complication is entailed in giving a malus to all non-special wagons
16:29<andythenorth>without breaking existing cargo payment expectations, relation to running costs etc
16:30<andythenorth>probably simpler to remove the feature from Horse :)
16:31<andythenorth>I did consider 50% malus for all wagons, and then halving cargo curve gradient in FIRS
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16:33<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> you're aware that prop 2B can't give any bonus? <-- yes, but we're still talking about two static values, however high they are
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so either you have a specific wagon for each cargo, or you detect the cargos for which you don't have a specific wagon
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>both should be known to you as a set designer
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>by the inclusion/exclusion settings
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16:35<Eddi|zuHause>even without knowing all cargos
16:40<andythenorth>wait how? :)
16:41<andythenorth>is there an assumption that unknown cargos are just unknown?
16:41<andythenorth>so have no malus?
16:43*andythenorth tries to see the design
16:46<andythenorth>or nvm :)
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16:50<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you have 3 specific wagons which have included/excluded lists, and a generic wagon. so for the generic wagon you check the inverse of the specific wagons
16:51<andythenorth>ok so that entails setting more labels
16:51<andythenorth>which is fine
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so for the generic wagon, the check is "would there be a specific wagon that loads this"
16:52<andythenorth>so if a cargo is known, and is featured in a specific wagon, it gets a malus in generic wagon
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>the cargo doesn't need to be known for that
16:52<andythenorth>?
16:53<andythenorth>I don't see how to write a varact 2 to check a label, when the label is not known?
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>the specific wagon has a list of known cargos, and a cargo class
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>the generic wagon must mimic this check
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16:55<andythenorth>so the assumption is that the specific wagons all have specific cargo classes?
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>no, the specific wagon can be whatever...
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>the check will be the same (you can check against an empty set of cargo classes)
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>your code generator will generate 4 switches, one for including specific cargos, one for excluding specific cargos, one for including cargo classes, and one for excluding cargo classes
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16:58<Eddi|zuHause>and repeat that for each specific wagon that the generic wagon should mimic
16:59<andythenorth>yes
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>the generic wagon needs a list of all specific wagons, and draws from each the include/exclude lists
16:59<andythenorth>ok we've redefined 'complicated'
17:00<andythenorth>semantics :P
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>well, you rejected the easy idea of having two static values
17:00<andythenorth>explain that one again?
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>the specific wagon gets one number, the generic one gets another
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>bonus points for having a specific wagon for everything
17:02<andythenorth>ok so the generic just get malus
17:02<andythenorth>do I care about the gameplay effect of that?
17:02<andythenorth>I'll have to reset all running costs again :)
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>just add more wagons :)
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17:03<andythenorth>is the logical conclusion to remove the generics?
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>no, you need the generics for autorefit
17:04<andythenorth>but you can only use them on short routes...
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>however, i would probably only make an aging distinction for refrigerated, and make the other specific cargos benefit by capacity or loading speed or something
17:09<andythenorth>I think that's inevitable, rather than a choice
17:09<andythenorth>thanks
17:10<andythenorth>convinces me to forget about the aging bonus, it really is a pointless part of the spec
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>it is not, but probably the wrong choice for your current design challenge
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>the main idea behind it was a bonus for long distance passenger travel on large maps (1024+)
17:14<andythenorth>I'll rephrase
17:14<andythenorth>for freight cargos, it's pointless
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>probably (except for refrigerated)
17:15<andythenorth>the pax implementation works fine as a malus, and it's easy to malus pax wagons
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17:16<andythenorth>maybe I should play test a 50% malus as standard
17:16<andythenorth>aggressive cargo aging
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17:44<arikover>andythenorth: Hello! Translating Iron Horse again. What is the difference between a "plate wagon" and a "flatcar"?
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>arikover: i don't think even he knows :p
17:49<arikover>:)
17:54<arikover>The last types added really look nice, but translating them is pretty tricky as they have quite similar purposes as other wagons...
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>arikover: i think the distinction is probably miniscule and pretty semantical, and might not translate well
17:58<arikover>Eddi|zuHause: I might as well make some translations up...
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like a bad idea :)
18:00<arikover>Eddi|zuHause: I can make them look serious enough...
18:03<arikover>Eddi|zuHause: ...but probably a bad idea, yes.
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18:34<Wolf01>Plate wagon might be an open one with little sides, flat cars are different kind of open wagons with flat surfaces, even a car transporter, but only he might know what he meant
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19:54<FLHerne>arikover: As ^, plate wagons have (very) low sides like https://www.hattons.co.uk/268051/Parkside_Models_PC16_20_ton_LNER_plate_wagon_Dia_1_123_plastic_kit/StockDetail.aspx
19:54<FLHerne>Flat wagons are flat
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20:09<Eddi|zuHause>usually the low sides can be flipped so it's completely flat
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20:27<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #7587: Crash on loading saved game from #1131 https://git.io/fj8Vm
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---Logclosed Sun May 19 00:00:46 2019