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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-05-19

---Logopened Sun May 19 00:00:46 2019
00:30<Corns[m]>Patch idea: during world gen, roads connect towns, like in simutrans
00:34<Corns[m]>Q: which files are responsible for handling world gen?
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04:19*andythenorth wonders about vehicles setting a multiplier to prop 12
04:19<andythenorth>(cargo prop 12)
04:19<andythenorth>price factor
04:19<andythenorth>maybe that has horrible performance though
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05:16<andythenorth>I love seeing newgrfs working in OpenTTD :D
05:16<andythenorth>I know I complain a lot, but making things for OpenTTD is really fun
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06:10<andythenorth_>maybe a compile time flag to drop all cargo sprites etc in Horse?
06:10<andythenorth_>might save 10 seconds or so
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06:31<andythenorth_>split Horse into separate grfs?
06:32<andythenorth_>engines grf, wagons grf, etc
06:36<frosch123>debug and release builds?
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06:43<andythenorth_>frosch maybe yes
06:43<andythenorth_>shame we can’t nest grfs
06:45*andythenorth_ has more ideas
06:48<andythenorth_>diff the nml, use some cached nfo & grfcodec if the nml is unchanged
06:49<frosch123>grfcoded has no spritecache
06:49<frosch123>so, encoding will be slower
06:49<frosch123>you are probably better off to generate multiple nml and grf files
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06:53<Eddi|zuHause>... didn't he already have provisions for "only make one vehicle"?
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07:08<andythenorth>frosch123: the grfcodec encode of Horse is about 3 seconds
07:08<andythenorth>although that's based on a -d decode, with only 9 spritesheets
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07:09<Corns[m]>Grfs can have dependencies, right?
07:12<frosch123>andythenorth: you can also disable cropping
07:12<frosch123>but with same settings, nml encoding should not be slower than grfcodec
07:13<andythenorth>the nmlc encoding is now fast, because I no longer throw away the sprite cache
07:13<andythenorth>but the parse and preprocessing steps are slow
07:14<andythenorth>the specific case I think will be faster with grfcode is changes to only realsprites
07:15*andythenorth tries to remember how to grfcodec :P
07:17<andythenorth>4s or so for grfcodec
07:17<andythenorth>it's expecting a 'sprites' path though, so I'd have to refactor the generated directory structure
07:18<andythenorth>iron-horse.nml -> nmlc -> grf ~30s average
07:18<andythenorth>iron-horse.nfo -> grfcodec -> grf 5s average
07:19<andythenorth>so if iron-horse.nml diffs as unchanged, I might as well branch to grfcodec
07:19<Eddi|zuHause>if you were using makefile, inserting grfcodec would be quite simple
07:19<andythenorth>I am
07:19<Eddi|zuHause>add switch to nmlc to generate nfo instead of grf
07:20<andythenorth>trying to work out the overhead
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>add entry to make grf from nfo via grfcodec
07:20<andythenorth>in cases where the nml file *has* changed, this adds a 5 second overhead to every compile
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>remove sprites as dependency from the nmlc stage, and add them to the grfcodec stage
07:20<andythenorth>so working with e.g. vehicle properties will be much slower
07:20<andythenorth>but drawing pixels will be much faster
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>overhead will be less than that
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>because nmlc does not process sprites anymore
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>so should be quicker
07:22<andythenorth>I'm not convinced by that yet
07:22<andythenorth>let's see
07:24<andythenorth>ok it's marginal
07:24<andythenorth>averaging 33 seconds for nmlc -> grf
07:24<andythenorth>averaging 31 seconds for nmlc -> nfo
07:25<andythenorth>fully primed nml cache
07:25<andythenorth>25s gain for changes that only touch realsprites, vs. 2s loss in cases where props etc have changed
07:31<andythenorth>frosch123: presuming nmlc builds some tree in memory, is there any mileage in pickling that, and passing it back to nmlc if they nml is unchanged?
07:31<andythenorth>pickle is slow, but eh
07:35<frosch123>i have some old numbers, when i tried
07:35<frosch123>writing the cache is +50% to parsing time
07:35<frosch123>readnig the cache is 20% of parsing time
07:36<frosch123>cache file size is 7x to 10x the nml source size
07:38<andythenorth>tradeoff doesn't look winning
07:38<frosch123>overall you needed to compile 5 times with valid cache to make up the time for creating the cache
07:42<andythenorth>ok thanks :)
07:51<andythenorth>dropping the cargo graphics
07:52<andythenorth>cuts the nmlc time from about 30 seconds to about 10 seconds
07:52<andythenorth>and the grfcodec time from about 5s to 0.5s
08:01<andythenorth>so I can maybe knock up to 40s off a 70s compile
08:02*andythenorth tries
08:07<andythenorth>sys.argv is a bit limited eh
08:09<_dp_>hi, what is the max amount of layouts industry can have? 256?
08:11<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: optional args aren't trivial with sys.argv afaict
08:11<andythenorth>doesn't matter, it works
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you'd usually use a configparser?
08:11<andythenorth>I'm not
08:12<andythenorth>what I have is really rudimentary
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>also, if you're using make, then maybe env would be better than argv?
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>make SKIP_CARGO=true
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>and then in python check whether env contains SKIP_CARGO?
08:13<andythenorth>that might be better
08:13<andythenorth>I'll make it work, and then link to the comimt
08:13<andythenorth>commit *
08:14<andythenorth>the args have been too crude for years
08:19<andythenorth>well that saves about 55% in cases where it can be used
08:21<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: ^ that includes the crap argv parsing I'm doing
08:21<_dp_>there is argparse for any real applications
08:21<andythenorth>it was 'good enough' about 8 years ago :P
08:21<_dp_>argv is just for debugging
08:22<andythenorth>might be better to switch to env, I never figured out how to pass args when running a specific python script
08:22*andythenorth happy to take pull requests :P
08:23<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't done configparser in a while
08:24<andythenorth>now let's combine that with grfcodec
08:24*andythenorth will inevitably have make questions :P
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08:55<Eddi|zuHause>so i "bought" this thing: anyone know what to do with it?
08:56<nakki>reading the reviews, apparently the thing they're giving away for free now isn't the full license
08:57<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: make a game!
08:58<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: L81 or so, nmlc runs always, how do I stop that? :)
08:58<andythenorth>oh that's the wrong rev, silly redmine
08:58<andythenorth> or so
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: remove "$(GRAPHICS_DIR)", put that on the grfcodec part?
09:00<andythenorth>I gave you the wrong url the first time
09:00<andythenorth>sorry :P
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>still same
09:01<Eddi|zuHause>remove it from the nmlc part
09:01<Eddi|zuHause>have it only on the grfcodec part
09:01<andythenorth>oh yes
09:02<andythenorth>hmm that doesn't work yet
09:02<andythenorth>probably the docs
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>remove the docs there as well
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>that dependency seems to be nonsense
09:04<Eddi|zuHause>or, backwards
09:05<andythenorth>wouldn't surprise me
09:06<andythenorth>anyway, that's a 10 second compile if I'm only changing sprites, and I drop all cargo sprites
09:06<andythenorth>much better payoff than me trying to rewrite nmlc myself :(
09:08<andythenorth>now the docs render after the nml
09:08*andythenorth will come back to that
09:08<andythenorth>13 seconds if the cargo sprites are enabled
09:09<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so the docs...what should I be doing?
09:09<andythenorth>I need the docs built early in the compile
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>why would anything depend on the docs?
09:10<andythenorth>because the compile is so slow that I can often open the docs, check the result, and ctrl-c the compile if the result is bad
09:10<andythenorth>but if the result is good, I let the compile continue
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>if they're independent tasks, make -j12 should figure it out
09:13<andythenorth>both the docs and the grf are co-dependent on the graphics,
09:13<andythenorth>in series
09:13<andythenorth>but docs are parallel to grf
09:13<andythenorth>how do I express that in make rules
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>if they're dependent, you put it in the dependency, if they're not, you leave it out
09:17<andythenorth>wait, so I already have 'default: html_docs grf'
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09:19<andythenorth>hmm doesn't trigger if graphics change
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09:20<andythenorth>I don't hate make, I just don't understand it
09:24<andythenorth>what's the .PHONY doing in this case?
09:38<arikover>andythenorth: Hello. Sorry to bother again, I'm translating Iron Horse and need some insights on some new freight cars.
09:39<andythenorth>tell me, I'll find pictures
09:39<arikover>andythenorth: So: What is the difference between a plate car and a flatcar?
09:40<FLHerne>andythenorth: I hear you should be using Meson now :P
09:40<arikover>andythenorth: Someone(s) already found pictures for this one yesterday, but I don't understand exactly the difference: are the sides not removable on the plate cars?
09:40<andythenorth>some are, some aren't
09:41<andythenorth>I considered using 'low-side open car'
09:41<andythenorth>'plate car' is a very specific UK use, not used anywhere else I could find
09:42<arikover>andythenorth: "Low-side open car" <- maybe I could translate that instead? Yeah, I couldn't find any references of plate cars outside UK.
09:42<andythenorth>Europe calls them flat wagons, because the sides are removable
09:42<andythenorth>and the US doesn't seem to have them
09:44<arikover>I could find something approaching, like "low-side open car" then. OK.
09:45<arikover>andythenorth: ...and the second one: what is the difference between an aggregate hopper and a standard hopper?
09:45<andythenorth>good question
09:45<andythenorth>I've turned aggregate hoppers off in current Iron Horse
09:45<arikover>andythenorth: Is it supposed to transport special cargo (like not-coal)?
09:45<andythenorth>I'm not convinced about the names
09:46<arikover>andythenorth: But you already drew the sprites?
09:46<andythenorth>yeah, but I've removed them
09:47<andythenorth>they're just graphical options, but the names are confusing
09:47<andythenorth>I want to put them back
09:47<andythenorth>but I don't know how to name them
09:48<arikover>andythenorth: Do you have any photos I could base myself on?
09:49<andythenorth>aggregate hopper
09:49<andythenorth>one type is silver, and used primarily for coal
09:49<andythenorth>the other type is company colour, and used primarily for stone, sand etc
09:50<andythenorth>there are other differences in real life, but too boring to feature in game
09:51<arikover>What are they? (it could maybe help for the translation)
09:51<FLHerne>arikover: From a real-life perspective, rock aggregates and ores are /much/ denser than coal
09:52<FLHerne>So a coal hopper filled to the brim with rock would be *far* too heavy
09:53<andythenorth>also the doors on coal hoppers are open / closed
09:53<andythenorth>they flood unload
09:53<andythenorth>the doors on agg hoppers have variable opening, for controlled rate
09:53<FLHerne>In the UK, since coal traffic fell off a cliff several companies have been converting coal hoppers to carry aggregate by essentially cutting out 1/3 of the length
09:57<andythenorth>in the US
09:59<arikover>FLHerne andythenorth: So the aggregate hopper are designed to carry denser loads (shorter design), and have a more subtle unloading process (in a -rough- nutshell)?
10:00<arikover>Okay. Thank you very much for your answsers!
10:00<andythenorth>if you come up with a name let me know :P
10:01<andythenorth>I have turned them off until I'm satisfied with the name
10:01<FLHerne>I don't see what's wrong with "aggregate hopper" tbh
10:01<andythenorth>or maybe I should name 'hopper' as 'coal hopper' even though it refits other things
10:01<FLHerne>They're hoppers for aggregate
10:01<andythenorth>they do refit coal and stuff, because no point limiting gameplay
10:02<FLHerne>Oh, fun
10:02<andythenorth>but they default to stone etc if present in the game
10:06<andythenorth>I absolutely don't understand make
10:08<andythenorth>I need to trigger rebuilding the docs if any .png files in src have changed
10:08<andythenorth>or if anything has changed in generated/graphics
10:08<andythenorth>in fact the .png files are irrelevant, generated/graphics would catch the case
10:09<andythenorth>but it stubbornly does not work
10:11<andythenorth>html_docs is in the default target
10:12<andythenorth>it has $(GRAPHICS_DIR) as a dept
10:12<andythenorth>dep *
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10:33<nielsm>so did anything interesting happen over the weekend?
10:39<arikover>FLHerne andythenorth: Heavy Load Hopper? But Aggregate Hopper is perfectly fine. I just wanted to know the difference for the translation.
10:43<arikover>andythenorth: Maybe hoppers' capacity for coal could be a bit lower compared to other aggregates, as it has a lower density? But that would be "realistic", and not really fun...
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11:11<juzza1>andythenorth: if i do "touch generated/graphics" and then make, it rebuilds the docs
11:12<juzza1>changing a png does not update the directory timestamp though, so i guess you need the actual generated pngs as dependency as well?
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11:30<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: how does the stuff in generated/graphics get created?
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you might want to also generate a .dep file
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>... it takes 4 more minutes to update my iron horse checkout
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11:43<andythenorth>the stuff in generated/graphics is created by
11:44<andythenorth>the GRAPHICS_DIR target appears to pick up all the deps reliably
11:45<andythenorth>I could learn about the nmlc -M option for deps, but it seems to require learning something for no benefit :P
11:49<andythenorth>wait wat
11:49<andythenorth>'make' causes the docs to build
11:49<andythenorth>'make install' does not
11:50<andythenorth>I just paste $(HTML_DOCS) in even more places
11:51<andythenorth>pasting things to more places seems to be how make works
11:52<@peter1138>En-route pork pies, eh?
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11:58<@LordAro>peter1138: just the minisnack ones i brought with me
12:02<@peter1138>I didn't have any energy or food enroute today, but I was by myself again.
12:02<@peter1138>In which case I slow down without noticing/causing others to wait.
12:14<andythenorth>so many variants :P
12:25<andythenorth>lol 13 second Horse compiles
12:25*andythenorth will stop moaning for a bit
12:26<andythenorth>this is happy emoji time
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12:35<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think i see what you think is right/wrong
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12:37<andythenorth>I'm unfortunately throwing away the benefit of the nmlc spritecache
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>make a grfcodec spritecache
12:38<andythenorth>but I have implicit and explicit options for compiles to go faster in common cases
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12:39<andythenorth>this addresses the most boring case, which is waiting 1m to see a few pixels difference in game
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>for some reason my youtube suggestions are full of (old) ESC content
12:39<andythenorth>and the second most boring case, which is tweaking costs etc
12:39<andythenorth>oof the power of suggestion
12:39*andythenorth now watches YT
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12:40<Eddi|zuHause>not the new stuff, stuff like "watch this song from 1975"
12:47*andythenorth wonders about teaching nmlc that the input .nml hasn't changed
12:47<andythenorth>if it made a .nml.bak file at the end of the compile, it could compare on next run
12:48<andythenorth>won't work
12:49<andythenorth>onwards :D
12:54<Eddi|zuHause>same way as with the graphics, you output to a file, and if cmp says no differences, you leave the .nml untouched, otherwise overwrite it
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>make will then recognize that the file date was not changed, and skip some further processing
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>(assumes proper dependencies)
12:55<andythenorth>I was thinking about a PR for actual nmlc
12:55<andythenorth>but it won't have any structure to encode
12:55<andythenorth>won't work
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>this is pure makefile stuff
12:56<andythenorth>yes, I have that working
12:56<andythenorth>that's why I wondered if it can be generalised :P
12:56<andythenorth>bundle grfcodec with nmlc? :P
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>if you go on, you land on my ignore list
12:57<andythenorth>I wasn't trolling that one :P
12:57<andythenorth>grfcodec is a pretty good tool
12:59<andythenorth>some of the suggestions for nml speed have revolved around 'rewrite in C++'
12:59<andythenorth>meanwhile frosch has tested disk caching the nmlc tree structure and it's a poor tradeoff
12:59<andythenorth>but nfo is a perfect intermediate format, and we already have the encoder
13:00<andythenorth>and it's very very fast
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>but both are fine standalone tools, there is no need to "bundle" them
13:05<andythenorth>people who need the nmlc.exe won't be able to get grfcodec?
13:06<andythenorth>I have no idea actually
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>you're just making compiling and distributing more complicated for no benefit
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>people who can install nmlc.exe can also install grfcodec.exe
13:07<andythenorth>ok so it would just be a dep
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>grfcodec is not a dep of nmlc
13:08<andythenorth>I know
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>your makefile just has two deps
13:08<andythenorth>I just find it depressing that the general case doesn't get improved
13:08<andythenorth>I do things to make my compiles faster
13:08<andythenorth>but nobody else benefits
13:08<andythenorth>it always comes back to 'rewrite nmlc properly'
13:09<andythenorth>but there's nobody even maintaining the docs right now
13:09<andythenorth>so that's not gonna happen
13:10<andythenorth>I just wondered how many lines it would be to add an arg, so that grfcodec is the encoder
13:10<andythenorth>and have nmlc do a diff on the .nml file before parsing
13:11<andythenorth>it was surprisingly quick to do for me in my compile, and I wish I'd thought of it before :P
13:11<andythenorth>python subprocess is a bit of a faff though
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: no, that is out of scope for a compile tool
13:21<andythenorth>oh well
13:21<andythenorth>I'll just keep solving my own problems then
13:22<andythenorth>that might be fine, nobody else seems to have nmlc problems
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15:31<andythenorth>was it lunch?
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15:42<@peter1138>not yet
15:45<andythenorth>did you finish Doom yet?
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16:08<@peter1138>Which Doom? I've been playing WADs for Doom II, and also the 2016 remake.
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16:17<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think i had lunch
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16:20<frosch123>you should be amout done with the late dinner, and prepare for the midnight snack
16:31*andythenorth wonders if newgrf vehicles could modify cargo price factor
16:31*andythenorth assumes that might have performance issues
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>the industry set can define custom price calculation, afair
16:34<andythenorth>there is a cb for custom profit yes
16:35<andythenorth>I am a bit wary of diverging too far from the cargo payment graphs
16:35<andythenorth>I did try to make vehicle aging period 'work' on small maps by setting aggressive t1, t2 decay periods on some cargos
16:36<andythenorth>but it makes very little difference until about 128 tiles (subject to vehicle speed)
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>that seems like the intended purpose
16:38<andythenorth>I tested quite a few things, but concluded that 'make cargo age periods work' isn't going in Horse 2.0.0
16:38<andythenorth>obvs. they do work, just Horse was designed against a misunderstanding of them
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---Logclosed Mon May 20 00:00:48 2019