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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-06-21

---Logopened Fri Jun 21 00:00:34 2019
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05:38<peter1138>Is it lunch time?
05:40<andythenorth>I accidentally ate lunch
05:41<peter1138>Well, I had dinner this morning.
05:41<peter1138>It was about half-past midnight.
05:41<peter1138>Kinda late but.
05:41<peter1138>I'd only had about 1300 carolies so needed something.
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09:18<andythenorth>is it lunch again?
09:21<peter1138>Yes, Lunch Redux.
09:22<andythenorth>what should I have?
09:23<peter1138>Macaroni Cheese, probably.
09:23<peter1138>I had salad, obviously.
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10:29<Eddi|zuHause>i got promised steak tonight
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12:28<andythenorth>well
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13:45<frosch123>so, V ruined his coworker's love for factorio by theory-talking factory designs :p
13:45<frosch123>only a #coop person could achieve that
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13:45-!-Progman is "Peter Henschel" on #openttdcoop.dev #openttd
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13:49<V453000>:(
13:53<frosch123>at least there a 3 people with ttd/ottd background on the team :)
13:54<V453000>:)
13:54<V453000>ruined their openttd even more :P
13:56<frosch123>did they found a support group for coop-suffering?
13:57<V453000>no they just avoided touching any train game ever since
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14:31<peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, is that like promised lands?
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14:50-!-glx is "Loïc GUILLOUX" on +#openttd
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15:23<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: are these lands delicious when put on a grill?
15:26*andythenorth had lamb rice chips halloumi
15:29*peter1138 is having frozen-veg medley with boiled marrow and chicken meatballs. Traditional "eh, whatever" fayre...
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17:02<Eddi|zuHause>soo... astroneer update
17:03<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: ooh
17:03<LordAro>anything fun?
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/784105063657988555/9EA65E90E3E085739C68FB7FA6DCB644E212D519/ <-- i kinda like the "tall platform" (left), but the "tall storage" (right) is kinda meh
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>haven't delved much deeper than that yet
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>need more bits to research the new stuff
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>there's also some storage silo thing in the screenshot which seems neat
17:07<peter1138>I... haven't played it for so long. I don't know what I'm supposed to do now :/
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>the new storage silo looks weird on the medium rocket, but i guess it triples the amount of stuff i can take with me
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>i should finally make that leap to search for iron on another planet, instead of hoping i happen across a third piece of processed scrap on the starting planet
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>(with three pieces of scrap i could trade for iron, which would allow me to build a shredder and make more scrap)
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>one of the recent patchnotes also said they made the core structure provide oxygen, so i might go back there and work on the puzzle
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17:22<Eddi|zuHause>what doesn't help is that i still haven't gotten a new computer, and am still scraping at the single-digit fps
17:22<andythenorth>oh Eddi|zuHause :(
17:22<andythenorth>just buy a Dell
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>but everybody i talked to recently said to wait for the new ryzen
17:23<andythenorth>should I buy an external GPU?
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>external as in usb plug?
17:25<andythenorth>USB-C / Thunderbolt
17:25<andythenorth>by some witchcraft, it then drives my laptop display
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>i'm unsure about GPUs... my current one cost 100€ back when i bought it, but 100€ GPUs today have barely any performance gain (according to benchmarks)
17:25<peter1138>Hmm, apparently I don't even have a savegame.
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i think they wiped early-access savegames
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>so, i'm out to at least a 200€ CPU, 200€ mainboard and 200€ GPU, and i'm almost at the price of my previous PC, and haven't got any other stuff like a case, SSD, RAM, ...
17:28<andythenorth>"Depending on the game, the Iris Plus 655 will probably be on par with a dedicated GeForce 930M or GeForce 940MX and can handle smooth gameplay in modern titles in low up to medium settings."
17:29<andythenorth>lucky me
17:29<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: afaict, computer prices are now €2k
17:30<andythenorth>they were €600, then €1200, and now they're the price of a good used car
17:30<andythenorth>but we buy them every 5 years not every year
17:30-!-gelignite [~gelignite@55d4ebcf.access.ecotel.net] has quit [Quit: Good fight, good night!]
17:30<+glx>mac maybe, you can get decent pc for way less than 2k
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the last one was 800€-ish, with no monitor and onboard graphics
17:30<milek7_>200eur motherboard is rather expensive?
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>milek7_: there was still some fuzz about motherboards for the next gen ryzen, but it was said they were going to be on the expensive side
17:32<milek7_>it wouldn't be still AM4?
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>probably, but with some bios tweaks and higher ram speed?
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not really knowledgable on that sector
17:34<andythenorth>so how much is a decent PC?
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>... depends
17:34<peter1138>andythenorth, don't confuse "mac" with "computer"
17:35<andythenorth>I looked at switching to HP last year
17:35<andythenorth>because Apple looked like they were losing the plot
17:35<andythenorth>there's no price saving on laptops
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you can probably go a long way with an ALDI-PC and slapping a decend GPU in
17:35<andythenorth>how much is a decent GPU?
17:36<andythenorth>they seem to be > €1k
17:36<peter1138>No, that's high-end more-money-than-sense gamer GPUs.
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>GPU speed seemed to be linear with price in the ranges i looked at
17:36<peter1138>A decent GPU is still 100-200.
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>which is 100-400€
17:38<andythenorth>eh SSDs caught up
17:38*andythenorth looking
17:40<milek7_>funny, my cpu is from 2009. back in 2009 cpu from 1999 would be useless
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>same here
17:41<andythenorth>hmm SSDs are confusing
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the important stat of SSDs is continuous write speed, but they never tell you that stat
17:42<andythenorth>I have an app that benchmarks it for as long as you want to leave it running :P
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but you can only run that app if you already bought it
17:42<andythenorth>that is the sad thing
17:42<andythenorth>quoted speeds are very variable from manufacturers
17:42<nielsm>I think the wisdom for SSDs now is that pretty much any recent model is "good enough", WD Blue is a good middle ground, and samsung are expensive for name brand but not any better than the rest
17:43<andythenorth>mine's some kind of 'soldered to the motherboard' thing
17:43<nielsm>and unless you're doing heavy data/media processing (like 4k video or a bunch of VMs at the same time) then paying extra for NVMe is not worth it, but if you can get NVMe for little or no extra price you may as well
17:44<andythenorth>I just like fast backups
17:45<andythenorth>I have 2GB/s on board, but the fastest external I can back up to is about 300MB/s
17:45<andythenorth>I can still remember having spinnng glass disk, not that long ago
17:46<andythenorth>5400 RPM :P
17:46<milek7_>ssd are still too expensive
17:46<nielsm>you value your time that little?
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>i still have this cheap 2.5" ssd from 5 years ago
17:47<nielsm>the time wasted waiting for spinning platters of rust is unbearable
17:48<nielsm>a fast computer definitely has solid state storage, a slow computer might not have that
17:48<nielsm>if you get rotating rust then you're guaranteed a slow computer
17:48<andythenorth>never waiting for IO is great
17:48<milek7_>i have ssd for system disk, but honestly it doesn't make that difference
17:48<andythenorth>I only get beachball rarely now
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>milek7_: i don't know what benchmark you put onto that, but when i put in my SSD, boot time was like 1/10th of before
17:51<andythenorth>is a Radeon RX 560 any good?
17:51<+glx>to heat a room yes ;)
17:51<andythenorth>apparently it allows 'some modern titles' to be played
17:51<andythenorth>at lower settings
17:52<andythenorth>it might be able to cope with e-sports, if you're not too demanding
17:52<andythenorth>WTF happened in gaming whilst I was asleep?
17:52<andythenorth>last time I checked in, consoles had won, and high-end gfx cards were for mining crypto
17:53<+glx>consoles are low cost pc
17:53<andythenorth>something is weird
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>crypto crashed like a year ago?
17:53<andythenorth>and iPad massively outperforms my Mac
17:53<andythenorth>despite being 50% of the price and 50% of the size
17:53*andythenorth very confused by technology
17:53<+glx>well it's Apple doing stuff ;)
17:54<+glx>nice design, high price, useless ;)
17:54<andythenorth>that doesn't make any sennse
17:54<andythenorth>how does that lead to iPads that outperform high end laptops?
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>you're comparing apples with apples...
17:55<andythenorth>iPads are just a useless chunk of glass
17:55<+glx>iPad SoC is optimised for the size
17:55<milek7_>i have rx580 and it's ok on AMDGPU
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>what you need is oranges
17:55<milek7_>but Windows drivers are garbage
17:55<+glx>laptop using standard cpu/gpu can't compete
17:55<andythenorth>https://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph13661/103804.png
17:56<+glx>they need to be slowed down for battery saving and less efficient cooling
17:56<andythenorth>https://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph13661/103785.png
17:57<andythenorth>the most lolz result https://img.purch.com/ipad-pro-video-editing-jpg/o/aHR0cDovL21lZGlhLmJlc3RvZm1pY3JvLmNvbS82L0gvODA4OTM3L29yaWdpbmFsL2lQYWQtUHJvLVZpZGVvLUVkaXRpbmcuanBn
17:57<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: i thought graphics cards are mostly affected by memory size, less by gpu
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: can you elaborate?
17:57<frosch123>i need to fit all the textures into vram to play factorio properly
17:58<andythenorth>maybe I should compile FIRS on an iPad
17:58<andythenorth>oh no wait, it's a crippled walled garden
17:58<andythenorth>I can't
17:58<frosch123>maybe the question is whether you need high dpi/resolution or high frame rate
17:59<frosch123>my games do not need high frame rate, but they usually care about huge screens
17:59<+glx>he needs high dpi, else it's ugly on his mac screen ;)
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i want 1080p, possibly dual-screen
17:59<+glx>most gpu can handle that now I think
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>glx: not my 5 year old 100€ one
18:00<andythenorth>is hidpi not standard?
18:00<+glx>yeah my GTS450 is too limited ;)
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>glx: even though they improved driver by several orders of magnitude, every game update brings it back down to its knees
18:01<+glx>driver is not updated now
18:01<+glx>too old
18:02<+glx>but if I buy a new GPU I'll need an hdmi-to-vga converter
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>radeon linux driver made some massive leaps about a year ago with pushing vulkan technology
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>huh? your screen uses VGA?
18:02<+glx>I don't wan't to replace a perfectly working screen
18:03<andythenorth>I had a monitor once
18:03<frosch123>yeah, i wonder whether my nvidia will be affected when upgrading to next debian
18:03<andythenorth>years ago
18:03<frosch123>i read some nvidia api was trashed from the kernel
18:03<andythenorth>hmm
18:03<andythenorth>bedtime very
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>i never understood how they produce digital screens without a DVI input
18:03<frosch123>glx: you use an analog screen?
18:04<frosch123>digital screens are so much sharper
18:04<andythenorth>I used to like the blurry dots
18:04<andythenorth>I miss all that
18:04<+glx>it's an lcd
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18:04<Eddi|zuHause>all my screens in the last... 15 years? ... had DVI
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>well, basically that's two...
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>before that i had a giant CRT
18:05<frosch123>i have not seen dvi in past 10 years
18:05<+glx>DVI on some models as stated in the manual
18:05<+glx>not for mine
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>glx: like i said, i never understood how that is...
18:06<frosch123>i am mostly confused about displayport vs hdmi
18:06<frosch123>for some reason notebooks often have hdmi
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: it's easy, there's about 10 versions of each
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: and all are marginally incompatible with each other
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i had the opposite experience. laptop with DP out and screen with HDMI in
18:08<+glx>manual says march 2008
18:08<frosch123>2008 means 4:3?
18:08<+glx>16:10
18:09<+glx>1680x1050
18:10<milek7_>for some reason TVs never have displayport
18:11<+glx>devices intended to be plugged in TV are usually HDMI
18:13<Eddi|zuHause>if i can trust my screenshots i got my 16:10 screen around mid 2007 (with DVI)
18:13<peter1138>And still 16:10 even now.
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>and 16:9 around mid 2012
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>(the 16:10 screen died like 3 days after the 5 year warranty ran out)
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>the 16:9 might also have HDMI, but i can't be bothered to check...
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>i never had a HDMI cable
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18:36<@planetmaker>hm... so two 27" at 4k. Or only one 43" at 4k? :P
18:37<frosch123>i haven't seen a curved 32:9 screen in person
18:37<frosch123>so, no idea whether it is as nice as it is hyped
18:37<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds out of my price range :p
18:38<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: i got two of the cheapest 16:9 screens in 2010, good enouigh for me
18:38<Eddi|zuHause>my one 16:9 screen cost about 300€ i think
18:38<frosch123>that's about the sum of the two
18:39<Eddi|zuHause>27"
18:39<frosch123>mine are smaller, or i would need a larger table
18:39<frosch123>i measured that before buying :p
18:39<Eddi|zuHause>i would need to redecorate if i got a second one
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18:40<frosch123>if you want two, better get two identical ones
18:40<Eddi|zuHause>and some voice in the back of my head tells me it'd be cooler if i got two narrower screens
18:41<frosch123>some of my coworkers have different old ones, and it's quite irritating that the colors never match
18:41<Eddi|zuHause>to put left and right of the current one
18:42<Eddi|zuHause>color correction is weird
18:42<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, some people use a landscape one in the middle, and a portrait one on each side
18:42<frosch123>they love the portrait ones for consoles
18:42<@planetmaker>one of my 24" died... so I need something new :P
18:44<@planetmaker>and identical as the remaining... not sure I find that
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i suppose there's no 4:3 or 5:4 monitors of the same height as my 16:9 monitor
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: even identical wouldn't mean it got the same colours
18:44<@planetmaker>well, but reasonably close
18:45<frosch123>planetmaker: the colour changes with the age
18:45<@planetmaker>They should allow colour calibration
18:45<frosch123>so, same model, one year difference, is noticeable
18:45<@planetmaker>hm, yeah
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: true colour calibration needs a device that can read the actual displayed colours
18:46<@planetmaker>there are a select few which come colour-calibrated out-of-factory. Or so they claim
18:46<@planetmaker>I think some... phillips?
18:46<frosch123>sounds expensive :p
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>that still doesn't correct for aging
18:47<peter1138>Eizo, but they're expensive, and yeah, colours change with age.
18:47<@planetmaker>it actually was not super duper expensive - much to my surprise
18:47<@planetmaker>similar to what other manufacturers had for similar specs w/o calibration
18:47<@planetmaker>but... well... it's not exactly my most important point
18:49<@planetmaker>I'm currently inclined for one big monitor slightly... can double as TV better than 2 smaller ones
18:49<@planetmaker>and with 4k pixels would still be larger than 2 fullHD
18:50<frosch123>planetmaker: those have different ratios
18:50<frosch123>for a tv you want 16:9, for wokring you want 32:9
18:50<@planetmaker>true
18:51<frosch123>also, if you put the tv on one, and work on the other, you do not need to care about colour matching :p
18:51<@planetmaker>:D
18:52<@planetmaker>But sometimes I want... when I compare photos
18:52*peter1138 has 48:10
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>i'm afraid i won't have space for 3 widescreen monitors :p
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>well, not unless i also invest in a new desk
18:53<@planetmaker>My desk can probably fit 2*32". But not more
18:53<@planetmaker>definitely not more
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>and possibly a new room layout
18:53<nielsm>get a monitor arm and you can fit much more
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>or a new room
18:54<@planetmaker>well... no... left is a wall. and right is a cupboard :P
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18:54<@planetmaker>unless I start also to rearrange my whole room :P
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---Logclosed Sat Jun 22 00:00:35 2019