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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-06-25

---Logopened Tue Jun 25 00:00:39 2019
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03:09<nielsm>morning
03:09<nakki>morn
03:15<LordAro>mrng
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03:52<Eddi|zuHause>the ending -ing usually describes a process, so "morning" is the process of becoming "morn"
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04:14<reldred>there is mourning involved, yes, generally.
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04:30<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: o/
04:30<andythenorth>for perishable cargo payment rates: if I check cargo in vehicle for, e.g. food, milk etc
04:30<andythenorth>and set the cargo aging period accordingly
04:31<andythenorth>do I need to be concerned about what the cargo has actually defined as age periods?
04:31<andythenorth>i.e. I don't have any way to detect what the industry set is doing
04:32<andythenorth>(the concern arises when writing docs to explain to player how it works)
04:33<reldred>Sigh, Andy, I hate to gush, but I really, really like those little industrial trams of yours
04:34<andythenorth>in HEQS? Or Hog?
04:35<reldred>One of the two. I forget which now. Which one is the Heningdorf in?
04:35<andythenorth>HEQS
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04:36<reldred>:O
04:44<Eddi|zuHause>... i hate when he does that...
04:45<reldred>yeah, here's me checking the credits on the grf to see whether I was actually singing praises of his mortal ttd community rivals .grf
04:45<Eddi|zuHause>i mean, asking a question and then disappearing five minutes later
04:46<reldred>lol
04:46<reldred>Well yes, that too I guess.
04:46<reldred>Somebody needs to set him up with znc, or irssi in a tmux session
04:46<LordAro>someone should get hi- ^
04:47<Artea>I can get him a znc
04:48<Artea>but doubt he would use it
04:49<reldred>Strange, I never used to use road vehicles in ttd but now with cargo dist and nrt I'm using them religiously.
04:52<nakki>i'd like to remind everyone that weechat > irssi
04:57<reldred>look, I'd like to remind everyone that ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
05:00<peter1138>Yeah, cargo dist makes using different vehicle types more enjoyable.
05:02<reldred>For sure. I've turned it off for regular cargo, but for passenger services I swear by it.
05:02<nakki>yeah it's pretty much required for passenger and mail service to be enjoyable
05:02<nakki>i still only use trains, though
05:02<nakki>choo choo
05:04<reldred>Yeah I default to trains, but I'm playing some really large maps (1k*4k) and using andy's industrial trams for short distance stuff and trains for long distance.
05:04<nakki>ah
05:04<reldred>and a few well placed tram routes in cities really help make intercity train runs more profitable.
05:05<nakki>oh yeah, feeder services for trains are nice, but i usually stick to industry
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05:24<reldred>hmmm, pathfinding for long road vehicles is interesting however.
05:24<reldred>still, five tile long industrial trams just makes me giggle.
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05:31<Eddi|zuHause>i usually use the shorter ones
05:31<reldred>Yeah
05:31<reldred>These are pushing it a bit but it's fun
05:31<peter1138>Is it snack time?
05:31<reldred>Yes
05:32<peter1138>Legit.
05:32<peter1138>Only issue is I already had a snack 15 minutes ago. I must have been very thirsty to finish that coffee in 15 minutes.
05:33<reldred>black coffee is like no kilojoules so drink up
05:33<reldred>til the brain aneurysm happens at least
05:41<peter1138>Yeah, I tend to have a bit of food with it at around this time of day as well.
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06:26<reldred>Sigh, I forgot the 'go-via' order existed and worked for road vehicles.
06:28<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure you're missing a dozen other essential features as well :p
06:28<reldred>Timetables. I never learnt them
06:29<Eddi|zuHause>timetables are terrible to manage
06:29<reldred>And at this point I'm too afraid to ask how
06:29<reldred>:P
06:30<reldred>I mean I remember when waypoints were first added to ttdpatch and before that we made single tile train stations with the go-via order but for some reason it escaped me I could do the same with road vehicles.
06:31<reldred>Just chalk it up to dumb bitch disease I guess.
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06:42<Eddi|zuHause>we also now have "no loading and no unloading" orders, which is like go-via, but the train still stops (and can be timetabled to wait)
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06:43<reldred>Oh neat
06:43<reldred>And there you said it again, timetables XD
06:43<Eddi|zuHause>yes.
06:43<Eddi|zuHause>timetables are great. except the management
06:44<reldred>Yeah, I think I need to make an effort to sit down and learn it before I do my next big pax route.
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>you can get much denser well-moving traffic if you have a properly set up timetable
06:44<reldred>Yup, that's what my last few maps desperately needed
06:45<reldred>I need to start a new game anyway, left this one on fast forward too long and now it's the 50's.
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>like, i had transrapid routes from A-B and A-C, with a merge halfway down the line
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>with timetables, you can make them interleave properly, without slowing down
06:45<reldred>Nice
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>(so-called "evil mode")
06:46<reldred>Yeah I'm on nightshift at work babysitting progress bars
06:46<nakki>hah
06:46<reldred>and yeah, experimenting with a few things with road vehicles
06:46<reldred>so putting it on FF to see what would happen, would it jam up over time, etc.
06:46<Eddi|zuHause>road vehicles are good for your first steps with timetables
06:47<nakki>i could never figure out timetables
06:47<nakki>even though i kinda wanted to
06:47<nakki>for spacing out buses and such
06:47<Eddi|zuHause>what usually happens with RVs is that they bunch up, with proper timetables they stay separated equally
06:49<Eddi|zuHause>basic rules i use to set up RV timetables: 1) let the first vehicle run empty, without being blocked as best as possible, 2) increase the wait time at the end stations, possibly reduce it at middle stations, 3) ensure vehicles can overtake at the end stations
06:52<peter1138>My thing with timetables is I seem to expect vehicles to be able to make up time, despite the schedule being set up for the minimum time already possible. I know it's wrong :p
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07:21<Eddi|zuHause>that's one of the things missing, set up time for 80% of max speed, and only speed up to 100% if late
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>the other thing missing is synchronizing two timetables
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10:10<andythenorth>well
10:10<andythenorth>lunch?
10:16<peter1138>Bit late.
10:17<peter1138>Afternoon tea?
10:19<andythenorth>fair
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10:34<LordAro>second breakfast
10:38<peter1138>Snacky McSnackFace.
10:43<reldred>I had a 2nd dinner. Cheese kransky since my work shift didn't end til 10pm (it started at 11am)
10:43<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think what i just ate would pass as a "snack"
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13:11<andythenorth>o/
13:15<nielsm>andythenorth: for the mac framerate issue, can you try editing video/cocoa/event.mm and change the GetTick() function to be similar to GetPerformanceTimer() from framerate_gui.cpp, except time_point_cast<milliseconds>
13:15<nielsm>and you also need to add #include <chrono>
13:15<andythenorth>likely I can later yes
13:15<andythenorth>have to make kids' dinner, then do some chores :)
13:16<nielsm>sure
13:16<andythenorth>I lost interest yesterday due to silly comments :P
13:16<nielsm>return (uint32)time_point_cast<milliseconds>(high_resolution_clock::now()).time_since_epoch().count();
13:16<LordAro>nielsm: thisisfine.jpg
13:17<nielsm>truncation is okay as long as you don't wait more than 49 days between calls
13:17<nielsm>since you just need to be able to take differences between monotonic unsigned values
13:19<LordAro>hahaha
13:21<LordAro>@calc 1/(49*24*60*60)
13:21<@DorpsGek>LordAro: 2.36205593348e-07
13:21<LordAro>so as long as you have more than ^ fps, you should be fine
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>49 days is such a typical windows overflow
13:22<nielsm>yeah it's a famous bug that was fixed in one of the windows nt 4 service packs
13:22<nielsm>system freezes after 49 days of uptime
13:22<nielsm>I guess the 9x versions may also have been affected
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>nielsm: it's a bug that keeps reappearing all over the place
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>nielsm: like there was an airplane that had to rebooted every 49 days to avoid some problems with unhandled overflow
13:30<nielsm>I think that was a boeing 787
13:35<nielsm>and airlines did not want to reboot the aircraft since they have to run them all day and night for max profit and the startup sequence takes too long time
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14:31<Firzen>Somehow my friend can't join my local server anymore. It worked last time (some months ago) with the old version (1.7). Now we're using 1.9.1. Anything changed since then? I forwarded the port TCP and UDP and we have no firewalls running...
14:33<nielsm>nothing major should have changed
14:33<nielsm>are you connecting via ip address or waiting for the server to show up in the server browser automatically?
14:34<nielsm>and I assume by "local server" you mean over a LAN, not over internet
14:34<nielsm>make sure Advertised is set to Yes when starting the server
14:34<Firzen>No, via internet, but the server runs on my computer.
14:35<Firzen>is advertised needed even when he adds it via IP?
14:35<nielsm>then it's not
14:35<nielsm>advertised is for making it auto-discoverable on a LAN
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14:36<Firzen>Yeah, I thought os.
14:36<Firzen>It always worked like this as well.
14:36<Wolf01>o/
14:36<Wolf01>I survived!
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>you survived what, legoland?
14:45<Wolf01>Yes
14:46<Wolf01>We walked about 56km in 3 days, with a lot of bags full of lego
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15:39<andythenorth>yo
15:39<Wolf01>oy
15:39<andythenorth>nielsm: so what eh? Test this framerate thing?
15:39<andythenorth>I set configure to some high debug level, that slows things down?
15:40<nielsm>no just run normally with that change
15:40<nielsm>see if it can ffwd correctly
15:40<andythenorth>I need to reset the debug level
15:40*andythenorth wiki
15:41<andythenorth>debug=0
15:41<andythenorth>?
15:41<andythenorth>google is finding nothing useful for instructions
15:43<nielsm>--disable-debug should be all you need to ,/configure if you want to make a non-debug build
15:43<nielsm>or maybe --enable-debug=0
15:43<nielsm>(I'd try "disable" first)
15:43<andythenorth>the latter I think
15:43<andythenorth>disable is unknown
15:45<andythenorth>so replace "return tim.tv_usec / 1000 + tim.tv_sec * 1000;" in GetTick with the line above?
15:45<nielsm>yes
15:46<nielsm>and add #include <chrono>
15:46<nielsm>also you need "using namespace std::chrono;" before that line I wrote
15:46<andythenorth>do I need to keep or delete "struct timeval tim;" ?
15:46<andythenorth>and "gettimeofday(&tim, NULL);"
15:46<nielsm>delete those
15:46<nielsm>replace the contents of the function :)
15:47<andythenorth>ok let's see
15:47*andythenorth needs more CPU cores
15:48<andythenorth>I have pegged out all 8 :P
15:48<andythenorth>28 Xeon cores anyone? :P
15:49<andythenorth>nielsm: ok compiled :)
15:49<andythenorth>now what?
15:50<nielsm>run the game and look at the framerate
15:50<nielsm>see if ffwd does something
15:50<andythenorth>would a video be more useful than words?
15:51<nielsm>I'm not sure if it's necessary
15:52<andythenorth>ffwd kicks the game loop and video rate both up to around 50fps
15:52<andythenorth>baseline is about 28fps
15:52<nielsm>that's not great
15:52<andythenorth>speed factor is hovering around 1.9x
15:52<andythenorth>can't remember what it used to be on previous OS
15:52<nielsm>what resolution and scaling are you running?
15:53<nielsm>try setting scaling to 1x for text and ui, and resolution to 1024x768 windowed, see if that makes things better
15:54<nielsm>also what kind of times are you getting for Drawing and Video Output
15:56<andythenorth>video output is around 0.00ms
15:57<andythenorth>rendering is about 0.26ms
15:57<andythenorth>oh it's gone up to 0.4ms when I closed a news message, weird
15:57<nielsm>but still poor fps?
15:58<andythenorth>^^ those values are quite constant ffwd / not ffwd btw
15:58<andythenorth>I will now change scaling
15:58<nielsm>if your drawing and rendering times are that low then scaling/res should not matter
15:59<andythenorth>I am testing a few things
15:59<andythenorth>I've just removed 7 AIs from the game, to avoid possible AI distortion
16:00<andythenorth>ok I'll try combos of UI and font scale now
16:00<andythenorth>both 1x, viewport in corner of the map
16:00<nielsm>if the fps is still unreasonable with that then I have another code change to attempt
16:01<andythenorth>ok, both 1x, ffwd, game speed factor is bouncing between 17 and 22x, ~500fps
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16:02<andythenorth>peaking around 750fps
16:02<nielsm>okay so it can run fast then
16:02<nielsm>how is normal non-ffwd fps?
16:02<nielsm>does it lock near 33.3 fps?
16:03<andythenorth>I'll check in a minute. 2x UI zoom, 1x font zoom is getting similar results
16:03<andythenorth>oh no wait, this is now 2x on both
16:03*andythenorth confused by settings ;P
16:04<andythenorth>I don't understand this behaviour at all
16:04<andythenorth>the frame rate is sometimes pegged to ~80fps
16:04<andythenorth>until a news message opens, then it jumps to ~600fps
16:04<andythenorth>the news message might be coincidental
16:05<nielsm>the news message might cover some landscape that needs less complex drawing then
16:06<andythenorth>it's all just sea tiles or black
16:06<nielsm>hm odd
16:06<andythenorth>the news message might be misleading
16:06<andythenorth>dunno
16:06<andythenorth>sometimes framerate is stuck for several seconds before ffwd kicks in
16:07<andythenorth>no AI running
16:07<andythenorth>no vehicles
16:07<andythenorth>oh there is GS
16:07<andythenorth>I'll remove it
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16:08<andythenorth>on normal it's locking around 33-34fps
16:08<nielsm>great
16:09<andythenorth>ouch my laptop is now red hot :D
16:09<nielsm>what if you go back to your usual settings?
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16:09<andythenorth>this is on 2x/2x which is usual
16:09<nielsm>and also window size usual?
16:09<andythenorth>yes
16:09<nielsm>nice
16:10<andythenorth>ok so I changed back to 1x/1x
16:10<andythenorth>the same lag until a news message opened
16:10<andythenorth>for 5-6s
16:10<nielsm>and btw are you getting the poor performance in the official 1.9.1 release that others have reported?
16:11<andythenorth>ok and again, after changing back to 2x/2x
16:12<andythenorth>a full 60s at ~80fps, then a news message appeared and fps rapidly increased
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16:13<nielsm>the most important is that it's capable of running at 100+ fps in ffwd
16:13<andythenorth>ok 1.9.1
16:13<andythenorth>I wouldn't describe it as poor
16:14<andythenorth>on new 2048x2048 map, with no AI or GS
16:14<andythenorth>it's pushing 400-500fps on FFWD
16:14<nielsm>it should lock at about 33 fps in normal on an empty game
16:14<andythenorth>yes, it's performing about the same as the self-compiled binary
16:14<nielsm>hm
16:14<nielsm>so you aren't getting the performance issue there then
16:14<andythenorth>noticeably, as soon as I have vehicles etc perfomance dips
16:15<andythenorth>ffwd no longer has any effect at some point
16:15<andythenorth>I haven't tested that rigorously though
16:15<nielsm>even in a "normal" "simple" game? with just a few hundred vehicles
16:15<nielsm>(and no newgrf)
16:15<andythenorth>I don't have a quick repro
16:16<nielsm>the issue others are reporting is getting like 10-15 fps on the title game
16:16<andythenorth>all my recent games have AI and GS running, and included patches / PRs :P
16:16<andythenorth>I don't get 10-15fps
16:16*andythenorth looks for the ticket
16:16<andythenorth>I do lose all the recent ffwd speedups
16:17<andythenorth>we're looking at this? https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/7247#issuecomment-505035209
16:18<nielsm>yes that second-to-last post
16:18<nielsm>and also the thing discussed here: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=85063&start=20
16:18<nielsm>(same issue)
16:19<andythenorth>oof
16:19<andythenorth>let's take the map out of the corner and see
16:21<andythenorth>ok if I go to an area of the map with more stuff, including animated FIRS industries
16:21<andythenorth>rendering goes up to about 1ms
16:21<andythenorth>(obviously) if I turn on 'full animation' that dumps the frame rate
16:21<nielsm>remember the total budget for each frame is 30 ms for game loop + rendering + output
16:22<andythenorth>but that should be known issue by now no?
16:22<nielsm>yeah and that should also be measurable in the frame times
16:23<andythenorth>if I find a really toxic combination of industry and sea, I can get it down to about 17fps
16:23<nielsm>the issue we're looking for/trying to repro is: The overall framerate is very low on an empty game/the title game, despite all the individual component times shown in the framerate window being very low and not adding up to the total frame time implied by the framerate.
16:24<andythenorth>ok so let's say with full animation on, I have about 19fps average on 'normal' speed
16:24<nielsm>with "the component times not adding up to the implied total frame time" being the core of the issue
16:24<andythenorth>but rendering is only 0.9ms
16:24<andythenorth>world ticks is 1.7ms
16:25<andythenorth>viewports is 0.48ms
16:25<andythenorth>game loop total is 1.74ms
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16:25<andythenorth>everything else is ~0
16:25<nielsm>game loop total + drawing total + video output = expected frame time
16:25<andythenorth>but this 19fps is trivially solved by turning off full animation
16:25<nielsm>1000 / fps = actual frame time (in ms)
16:25<andythenorth>and has been for years
16:26<andythenorth>I kind of wonder if 'full animation' should just be removed
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>the setting or the feature?
16:27<andythenorth>either
16:27<andythenorth>the setting should be 'off' by default
16:28<andythenorth>and maybe moved to cfg
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>no
16:28<andythenorth>it's a bit weird shipping broken by default
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>at best, the feature should be rewritten to use shaders.
16:28<nielsm>it's pallette animation, right?
16:29<andythenorth>yes
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>yes
16:29<nielsm>how about adding a third setting to it "auto" that disables it when 32 bpp blitter is required
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>that doesn't sound right
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>i mean we have 32bpp_anim for a reason
16:30<nielsm>and then fix the video drivers so they can render an 8 bpp surface from the blitter to a 32 bpp surface from the OS
16:30<nielsm>and then allow 8 bpp blitter to be used when an 8bpp baseset is used
16:31<andythenorth>it's interesting how much FIRS industries destroy FFWD
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16:31<andythenorth>maybe I should remove them
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>nielsm: i think the problem is osx specific, not 32bpp specific
16:31<andythenorth>each industry knocks off about 10fps in crude tests
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>nielsm: if 32bpp were the problem, i think we would have heard from more people
16:32<nielsm>so why is the animation so slow on macos?
16:32<nielsm>that doesn't make sense
16:32<andythenorth>I have heard various explanations
16:32<nielsm>if the blitter itself is fast enough
16:32<andythenorth>the 3 most plausible are:
16:32<nielsm>and video output from the blitter to the os surface is fast enough
16:32<andythenorth>- about 6 years ago graphics card vendors dropped native palette animation in silicon / drivers
16:32<andythenorth>- modern motherboards lack the bandwidth to move textures from CPU to video
16:32<andythenorth>- Apple
16:33<andythenorth>I have NFI if any of those are true
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>nielsm: i have no useful input to that question
16:33<andythenorth>FTR, Apple tends to get adequate performance out of crap GPUs for both 2D and 3D
16:33<andythenorth>because they ship limited SKUs and tightly bind drivers / OS APIs
16:34<andythenorth>'adequate', not 'good' :P
16:34<nielsm>this is no more video bandwidth heavy than playing back HD movies
16:34<nielsm>if the blitter can produce the frames fast enough then they should run at full speed
16:37<nielsm>andythenorth: but most importantly, when you turn on "full animation", does it impact the frame times in either drawing or in video output?
16:39<andythenorth>on average, adds between 0.03ms and 0.2ms, depending on which part of map
16:39<andythenorth>video output remains 0.00ms
16:39<andythenorth>or 0.01ms
16:40<andythenorth>I am googling about palette animation
16:40<nielsm>does that account for the loss of total framerate?
16:40<andythenorth>not if I've understand the maths correctly :P
16:40<andythenorth>it's dropping 10-12fps
16:40<nielsm>okay
16:41<nielsm>so while the sum of game loop + drawing + video output is still below 30 ms, the total framerate drops to below 32 fps?
16:41<andythenorth>the only relevant google result so far is the tt-forums thread from 2009, where official Mac support ended for OpenTTD
16:42<andythenorth>sum is about 2.5ms
16:42<andythenorth>framerate is bouncing around 19-20fps, instead of 33-34fps
16:42<nielsm>right, so there is something here that is not being measured
16:43<nielsm>relating to conversion
16:43<nielsm>which blitter are you using, 8bpp or 32bpp?
16:43<andythenorth>LordAro: are the officially supported platforms still correct? o_O :) https://www.openttd.org/about.html
16:44<andythenorth>nielsm: whatever is default, I assume it's 32bpp
16:44<andythenorth>there's a console command I can check?
16:44<LordAro>andythenorth: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
16:44<LordAro>not entirely wrong, iirc
16:45<andythenorth>I might just not get sucked into documentation :)
16:45<andythenorth>it's always slightly not fun
16:46<andythenorth>but the platforms here eh https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/README.md#30-supported-platforms
16:47<andythenorth>nielsm: afaict from previous history, the default mac blitter is 32bpp
16:47<andythenorth>since 2010
16:55*andythenorth digging up https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/6469
16:59<andythenorth>setting blitter to 32bpp-sse2-anim makes no difference
17:01<andythenorth>nielsm: it's very sensitive to window size
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17:24<andythenorth>also bedtime :)
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22:29<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ddm999 opened pull request #7627: Fix #7626: Allow building of drive-through stops over one-way/blocked roads owned by towns (instead of crashing). https://git.io/fjrrF
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23:47<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ddm999 opened pull request #7628: Fix #7625: Road infrastructure cost is correctly updated when upgrading your own roads. https://git.io/fjrox
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---Logclosed Wed Jun 26 00:00:41 2019