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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-07-14

---Logopened Sun Jul 14 00:00:07 2019
00:01<Eddi|zuHause>depends how big of a map you play?
00:01<reldred>been hovering around 2048x1024 or 2048x512
00:02<reldred>nah my add has been legit playing silly buggers lately. I can get really engrosed in some stuff and the others I can't get 5mins in
00:03<Eddi|zuHause>my experience is if i don't get interrupted by work problems or game breaking bugs, i can get about a month out of a game
00:04<reldred>About the best I can get is around 5days
00:04<reldred>And at the present moment it's about 5 mins
00:05<Eddi|zuHause>currently i'm bugged with system instabilities, where about once per day the system freezes up
00:06<reldred>Bugger
00:06<reldred>Yeah I was expecting my self-compile of jgr's nrt branch to be buggy as hell but I've not managed to break it yet
00:08<reldred>Can't get that updated rainfall patch to compile, seems to be drawing on a bunch of includes common in linux systems but not windows
00:09<Eddi|zuHause>can you compile the original?
00:09<reldred>Yup, and jgr's patchpack
00:09<Eddi|zuHause>i mean the unupdated patch
00:10<reldred>it was apparently a long way behind master
00:10<Eddi|zuHause>yes, you'd have to check out an old version
00:10<reldred>Yeah I didn't go that far into it
00:11<reldred>the old version was pre NRT so I wasn't terribly interested.
00:11<reldred>Now that does remind me, now that I do have a working build environment there was some other things I was going to start poking around with
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01:19<Hazzard>some of this code is wack :D
01:22<Hazzard>Does anyone know if the percentages (of 256) are rounded or truncated?
01:22<Hazzard>for UI display
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02:30<reldred>oh custom bridgeheads, how I've missed you
02:31<@peter1138>WHAT
02:31<@peter1138>Oh, in JGR?
02:32<reldred>yup
02:32<reldred>I finally compiled his nrt branch
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02:32<@peter1138>I keep meaning to try porting that to master but... map arrays and savegame changes :/
02:32<reldred>jgr's branch also has some magic buttons that handle all that scheduling nonsense that I don't understand
02:32<@peter1138>Also I thought my milk was curdling but turns out the fridge is so cold it's just partially frozen o_O
02:33<reldred>lol
02:33<@peter1138>I suppose at least it'll keep fresh for longer :D
02:33<@peter1138>It's raw unpasturised milk.
02:34<reldred>and improved breakdowns! *swoon*
02:34<@peter1138>Improved how?
02:34<reldred>more failure states, they don't just break and sit there they can limp along, etc.
02:35<reldred>reduced output, etc.
02:35<@peter1138>Hmm.
02:36<@peter1138>Definitely not off, it still tastes really good (despite being a week old!)
02:37<reldred>nekminnit brain worms
02:38<@peter1138>Probably.
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02:40<reldred>huh, I never noticed the extended zoom out options
02:44<@peter1138>Oh dear, I just looked at today's planned ride. To a Café Nero. I really can't be arsed with that.
02:44<reldred>push bike?
02:44<@peter1138>Yeah.
02:45<@peter1138>And the leader is kinda annoying, slows down or speeds up randomly.
02:45<reldred>I should buy a new push bike
02:45<reldred>since I won't be running any time soon with the arthritis
02:45<@peter1138>Oof.
02:46<reldred>yeah doc reckons I have RA
02:46<@peter1138>Yeah, cycling is at least low impact.
02:46<@peter1138>Anyway, I should have a day off from cycling, I've ridden all week.
02:46<reldred>The problem is my idiot ass would go and buy a hard tail with small wheels and do dumb things on concrete with it.
02:46<@peter1138>Hard tail with small wheels...
02:46<@peter1138>So a BMX.
02:46<reldred>Not quite
02:47<reldred>BMX's are too small for me, I smash my knees something chronic
02:47<reldred>But yeah drop the wheels a few inches, nothing too wild and they do well on concrete
02:47<reldred>single speed
02:47<@peter1138>Other than folding bikes, I don't know what other bikes have small wheels.
02:48<reldred>oh not small small
02:48<reldred>but small for a mtb
02:48<reldred>I _could_ do with a decent folder for sticking in my truck though
02:48<@peter1138>So, er, there's 26, 27.5 or 29 generally.
02:48<reldred>or get that bmx replaced
02:48<reldred>s/replaced/repaired/
02:49<reldred>bought that bmx off a very crazy lady in coastal nsw when I was driving to adelaide from queensland
02:49<reldred>just a lazy 3000km drive
02:49<reldred>or thereabouts
02:49<@peter1138>I just want more bikes :/
02:50<@peter1138>Like I keep thinking a Brompton would be useful... but kinda wasteful.
02:56<Hazzard>Reading the industry source code, is it only possible for industries with multiple types (farms, oil rigs) to close if both their productions reach zero?
02:56<Hazzard>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/1.9.2/src/industry_cmd.cpp#L2570-L2619
02:57<@peter1138>If you've just read the source you probably know more than anyone else ;)
02:58<nielsm>yeah by default rules a multi-output primary industry can only close when all of its outputs are at minimum
02:58<nielsm>also note that that's for smooth economy, not classic economy
02:59<nielsm>and newgrf industries can override the closure rules with the production change callback
02:59<Hazzard>Hmm neat, thanks nielsm
03:01<Hazzard>source code is a bit hard to read, not confident
03:02<reldred>Ahah. The only foul up I've managed to find in jgr's nrt, custombridgeheads plus nrt plus stations underneath are all fine, until a train is in said station and a tram goes over the top and then the poor sprite sorter loses its goddamn mind.
03:02<Hazzard>I guess the clamp means the production never actually shows up as zero
03:02<reldred>So situation normal then.
03:02<nielsm>it's features layered on features with years of special exceptions added
03:03<nielsm>very much spaghetti
03:03<@peter1138>Bridges over stations is a feature I didn't add (after writing it) about 10 years ago, for that very reason.
03:03<reldred>It's fine, and even fine with a train at the station, it's just once a tram goes accross the pylons and everything has a fit.
03:04<reldred>Overall not too bothered, if anything I've been surprised how stable this branch has been.
03:05<reldred>I was thinking the reason he didn't post binaries was because it was unstable but so-far so-good.
03:07<Eddi|zuHause>reldred: sprite sorter is a bit useless if bounding boxes overlap
03:07<reldred>yu
03:07<reldred>yup
03:08<reldred>I have fond memories of coaxing behavior out of the sprite sorter when making stations with overpasses, etc.
03:08<Eddi|zuHause>might need a better heuristic to resolve that case, but solving it one way usually creates more problems elsewhere
03:08<reldred>and by fond I mean painful
03:09<reldred>it's that one thing alone that's probably singlehandedly stopped the suburban stations rework dead in its tracks
03:09<reldred>laid out all the sprites then went fuck now I have to actually code it
03:12<@peter1138>Urgh, as much as I like my CH yoke, the 8-bit sampling on the analogue axes is kinda frustrating :/
03:12<Eddi|zuHause>maybe the game should throw error messages for bounding box overlaps, if in newgrf-developer-mode?
03:13<reldred>peter1138: it's only 8bit? :O. I was pondering getting a yoke for star citizen since I mainly fly big ships when I do play it.
03:14<@peter1138>Yes, the CH hardware is pretty ancient.
03:14<@peter1138>Thinking about swapping the circuitry for a Leo Bodnar thing.
03:15<@peter1138>Technically it's enough.
03:16<@peter1138>But it feels wrong when you can see the steps in movement.
03:20<@peter1138>Hmm, seems there is a bit of a deadzone too :/
03:20<@peter1138>Wonder when that started. Hmm.
03:21<@peter1138>I tried using yoke & rudder in Elite Dangerous but... Elite's yaw pitch is so crap anyway...
03:21<@peter1138>PITCH?
03:21<@peter1138>yaw axis..
03:23<@peter1138>Hmm, problem with OrbX TrueEarth UK is... the UK is mostly flat :p
03:23<@peter1138>There's a bit up north where mountains are visible but when you're at 4-5000 ft it all looks very tame.
03:26<Hazzard>@logs
03:26<@DorpsGek>Hazzard: https://webster.openttdcoop.org/index.php?channel=openttd
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03:47<@peter1138>I think the G27 pedals are probably 8 bit too, but that hardly matters either.
03:48<@peter1138>I did buy some hall-effect sensors to replace the pots with but never go around to doing it. And then lost them.
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04:08<andythenorth>o/
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04:23<@peter1138>o\
04:24<@peter1138>Uh, what, to change my callsign I have to... edit the plane? o_O
04:27<andythenorth>o_O
04:27*andythenorth wonders
04:28<andythenorth>in the cheat window, for game date, why does the '<' arrow incremement game date?
04:28<andythenorth>I thought I was mis-clicking, but I'm not
04:28<andythenorth>in fact all the '<' arrows are broken
04:29<andythenorth>super :)
04:30*andythenorth wonders if James103 will file an issue about it :)
04:33<andythenorth>hmm, not all, maybe just date and max height
04:38<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/website] michicc opened issue #93: IPv6 broken again https://git.io/fjX8Z
04:39<@peter1138>UI scaling issue?
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04:45<reldred>we need more tree sets
04:45<reldred>I should do something about that
04:47<andythenorth>could be UI scaling issue
04:47<@peter1138>andythenorth, difficult to test, eh?
04:47<andythenorth>I can only repro it in the cheat window
04:47<andythenorth>can't trigger it in settings
04:48<@peter1138>Reproduce it with different UI scales.
04:48<andythenorth>ok
04:48<@peter1138>They're separate windows, so... that's likely.
04:49<andythenorth>yeah it triggers at [1x zoom, 2x font] and at [1x zoom, 2x font] and [2x zoom, 2x font]
04:49<andythenorth>how do I record an animated gif? :P
04:51<@peter1138>1x 1x?
04:51<@peter1138>No need to record, surely?
04:51<@peter1138>Or are you unable to describe things clearly these days?
04:53<andythenorth>the video is just way less verbose :P
04:53<@peter1138>Less verbose is less useful.
04:58<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth opened issue #7655: Cheat window date '<' arrow incremements date https://git.io/fjX84
05:00<andythenorth>I added an extra note, moving the mouse further left does get the expected result
05:05<nielsm>the docs on ClickChangeDateCheat does not match the actual code...
05:05<nielsm>"p1 unused" (appears to contain modified year), "p2 +1 (increase) or -1 (decrease)" (is not used at all)
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05:11<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7655: Cheat window date '<' arrow incremements date https://git.io/fjX8w
05:13<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7655: Cheat window date '<' arrow incremements date https://git.io/fjX8o
05:19*andythenorth BBL
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05:23<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain closed issue #93: IPv6 broken again https://git.io/fjX8Z
05:23<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on issue #93: IPv6 broken again https://git.io/fjX8H
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07:25<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] imcasper updated pull request #7653: Add: BuildVehicleSmartGUI https://git.io/fjXmK
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07:43<andythenorth>Horse 91%
07:47<nielsm>reaching dangerous levels of completedness
07:57<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] imcasper updated pull request #7653: Add: BuildVehicleSmartGUI https://git.io/fjXmK
07:57<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/website] michicc updated pull request #88: Add: Monthly Dev Post of July 2019 https://git.io/fjZhM
07:58<+michi_cc>Quick poll: First or second option for layout: http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/dp_layout_1.png ?
08:06<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #7560: Make GSGoal.QuestionClient work correctly at least for clients with ID < 2**16 https://git.io/fjXBD
08:08<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/website] michicc commented on issue #93: IPv6 broken again https://git.io/fjXBS
08:12<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/website] TrueBrain commented on issue #93: IPv6 broken again https://git.io/fjXBH
08:16<+michi_cc>andythenorth, LordAro: First or second layout option in http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/dp_layout_1.png
08:20<andythenorth>I vastly prefer the first option
08:20<andythenorth>michi_cc ^
08:20<+michi_cc>okay
08:28<LordAro>michi_cc: definitely first
08:28<LordAro>possibly with a little more spacing after the paragraph
08:31<+michi_cc>The formatting is just a markdown change, but the spacing would be css messing I think.
08:32<andythenorth>Horse 92%
08:32<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7560: Make GSGoal.QuestionClient work correctly at least for clients with ID < 2**16 https://git.io/fjZjH
08:32<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #7534: GSGoal.QuestionClient sends message to wrong client https://git.io/fj3Uq
08:32<LordAro>michi_cc: we can worry about that later then
08:32<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/website] michicc updated pull request #88: Add: Monthly Dev Post of July 2019 https://git.io/fjZhM
08:33<+michi_cc>Please note that the GitHub preview renders differently to our site.
08:35*LordAro spots 2 typos
08:37<+michi_cc>You may push changes anytime.
08:38<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] imcasper updated pull request #7653: Add: BuildVehicleSmartGUI https://git.io/fjXmK
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>so, anyone know how one would select the boot partition with gpt?
08:40<Eddi|zuHause>or, where i would get a windows bootloader from?
08:40<nielsm>UEFI or BIOS boot?
08:42<LordAro>michi_cc: i feel the "extension" explanation is unnecessary, given we're assuming people are already familiar with source code
08:42<LordAro>can i remove?
08:43<+michi_cc>Our use of both .h and .hpp is not common, if that is in, leaving .cpp out looks wiered.
08:43<LordAro>mm, perhaps
08:44<LordAro>though our differences between hpp & h are usually fairly arbitrary :p
08:44<+michi_cc>I.e. both extension are commonly used, but don't have any set meaning.
08:45<+michi_cc>And purely from a didactical point of view, IMHO if you split something into parts, simply not saying anything about one part is wrong.
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>nielsm: not entirely sure, but i assume UEFI
08:48<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/website] LordAro updated pull request #88: Add: Monthly Dev Post of July 2019 https://git.io/fjZhM
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>nielsm: i have a windows partition and a boot partition, but the partition table stuff got lost
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>nielsm: and when i create a partition table and move the partitions in, it won't boot from the disk
08:49<LordAro>probably merge it now so we can see it on staging, then tweak anything else
08:49<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/website] LordAro approved pull request #88: Add: Monthly Dev Post of July 2019 https://git.io/fjXRf
08:50<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] imcasper updated pull request #7653: Add: BuildVehicleSmartGUI https://git.io/fjXmK
08:50<nielsm>Eddi|zuHause: if you have the windows boot partition (typically a 500 mb FAT32 thing) then you should just be able to point your firmware at the disk and it should auto-detect the boot partition and run the bootloader
08:51<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7654: Change: Update for French town name "Beaujolais" https://git.io/fjXRk
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>nielsm: did i put them in the wrong order?
08:52<nielsm>order shouldn't matter afaik
08:52<Eddi|zuHause>i'm still thinking i'm missing some "this is the boot partition" flag
08:52<Eddi|zuHause>but i've never worked with gpt partitions before
08:53<nielsm>have you tried booting from a windows install usb/dvd and see if the repair boot option can detect the install?
08:53<nielsm>and bbiab, need to take care of laundry
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>i've not, but that should probably be my next try
08:53<+michi_cc>LordAro: Should look okay, I even installed jekyll to check. Will still merge though.
08:54<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/website] michicc merged pull request #88: Add: Monthly Dev Post of July 2019 https://git.io/fjZhM
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>"Win 10 1703" iso.. that should work, if i just dd it on a stick, right
08:55<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7653: Add: BuildVehicleSmartGUI https://git.io/fjXRq
08:56<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #7654: Change: Update for French town name "Beaujolais" https://git.io/fjXRY
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09:15<andythenorth>Horse 93%
09:21<nielsm>what will happen if that number reaches 100% ?
09:23<+michi_cc>Anything looking wrong in https://www.staging.openttd.org/news/2019/07/14/monthly-dev-post.html ?
09:26<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] imcasper commented on pull request #7653: Add: BuildVehicleSmartGUI https://git.io/fjXRz
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09:33<Eddi|zuHause>nielsm: that will never happen
09:38<andythenorth>it's true
09:38<andythenorth>well, strictly, it's just counting sprites marked as complete
09:38<andythenorth>it doesn't deal with design issues, codebase issues, bugs
09:47<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7653: Add: BuildVehicleSmartGUI https://git.io/fjXR1
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10:32<Samu>gi
10:33<Samu>scoring the last 6 rounds atm
10:35<andythenorth>Horse 93%
10:36<andythenorth>:P
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>weren't we there like an hour ago? :p
10:36<andythenorth>351 trains :P
10:36<andythenorth>each 1% is a few trains to draw :P
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you should switch metrics? :p
10:37<andythenorth>might be time
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>90% done, time for the other 90%
10:38<andythenorth>@calc 24 * 6
10:38<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 144
10:38<andythenorth>@call 144 + 351
10:38<andythenorth>@calc 144 + 351
10:38<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 495
10:38<andythenorth>soon it will get worse :P
10:38<andythenorth>500 trains seems like a lot for one roster eh :P
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10:39<Eddi|zuHause>if we add views, your whole project will collapse under its own weight :p
10:39<andythenorth>we probably won't though
10:39<andythenorth>at some point compile time inhibits additions
10:39<andythenorth>also
10:41<andythenorth>"Iron Horse is a minimalist train set"
10:41<andythenorth>not
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>"perfection is not achieved when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing more to remove"
10:42<andythenorth>that
10:42<andythenorth>it's a very subtle quote
10:43<Eddi|zuHause>i probably mangled it a bit
10:44<andythenorth>if I could find a way, I'd remove one whole generation
10:44<andythenorth>but I tried it and it doesn't quite make sense
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think that's your problem
10:45<andythenorth>unusually I don't have many problems with Horse
10:46<andythenorth>I just like deleting things :P
10:46<andythenorth>I could remove some coach / freight wagons
10:47<andythenorth>'mistakes were made'
10:47<andythenorth>I misunderstood cargo aging, so the wagon design is a little flawed
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>ButRealism(tm)
10:52<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] imcasper commented on pull request #7653: Add: BuildVehicleSmartGUI https://git.io/fjX07
10:53<andythenorth>strictly speaking, there are 6 luxury passenger coaches that could be deleted
10:53<andythenorth>each with 4 graphical variants
10:53<andythenorth>but eh
10:53<andythenorth>it's also not clear that every generation needs 4 mail wagons :P
10:53<andythenorth>hmm 6 mail wagons actually
10:54<Eddi|zuHause>how many length paddings do you need?
10:54<andythenorth>'some'
10:56<Eddi|zuHause>i think in CETS i have mail vans for passenger trains and mail vans for freight trains (what in other countries would be a caboose)
11:01<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7353: Feature: Measure vehicle capacity utilisation efficiency https://git.io/fhho4
11:01<nielsm>still need to find a way to measure days (or ticks) spent waiting at a signal...
11:02<nielsm>that works reliably and equally for block and path signals
11:02<LordAro>something horrendously inefficient, like a counter per signal
11:02<Eddi|zuHause>i wanted to add a few flags for which speed limit affects a train, you could incorporate that there (signal would impose a speed limit of 0)
11:03<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: the signal doesn't know whether a train is waiting on it
11:04<nielsm>I still haven't understood the actual code path taken to pathfind a train past a signal
11:04<LordAro>but what if it did? :p
11:04<nielsm>it seems that for one of the types it needs to run through the code twice for some reason?
11:05<nielsm>and the VRF_TRAIN_STUCK flag is only set for one of the types?
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>i have some vague memory of dealing with that issue years ago with my "stuck trains" hack
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>maybe i should dig that up
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11:07<Eddi|zuHause>did i ever post that in the forum?
11:07<nielsm>I don't know
11:08<nielsm>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7353/commits/412d517ed2fdb4e6984cbd977a04a770fea86436
11:08<nielsm>specifically Train::wait_counter increases at double speed for one signal type
11:09<nielsm>(signal class?)
11:09<nielsm>also that commit subtly changes something else that it shouldn't, see if you can spot it
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12:02<nielsm>time for some testing! https://0x0.st/z9u6.jpg
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12:04<nielsm>okay this is probably "good enough" https://0x0.st/z9uI.jpg
12:05<nielsm>after waiting at different types of signals for several months there is a slight difference between penalty accrued
12:05<nielsm>but not a major difference
12:05<andythenorth>Horse 94%
12:05<nielsm>(the dark blue number below the "efficiency this year" line is the raw "potential cargotiles delivered" value)
12:07<andythenorth>o_O
12:07<andythenorth>very interesting
12:07<andythenorth>feel like adding lifetime earnings? :P
12:07<andythenorth>and ROI? :P
12:07<nielsm>those could be interesting yes :)
12:08<nielsm>even just a display of "earnings this year" in addition to the "profit this year" could be useful
12:09<+michi_cc>nielsm: short-circuited if statements with side effects, how nice :p
12:10<nielsm>michi_cc yeah
12:10<nielsm>well after some more analysis the side effect can safely be moved to the line above
12:10<nielsm>nothing depends on the value apart from that code itself
12:11<nielsm>iow. it's okay for the wait_counter to increment even for "wrong" settings of reverse_at_signals
12:14<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7353: Feature: Measure vehicle capacity utilisation efficiency https://git.io/fhho4
12:15<Samu>2 rounds remaining
12:15<Samu>1st and 2nd places are not yet decided :p so exciting
12:17<nielsm>michi_cc: any opinions on this UI? https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7353#issuecomment-487289027
12:20<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/website] michicc opened pull request #94: Create 2019-08-01-monthly-dev-post.md https://git.io/fjXEu
12:22<+michi_cc>nielsm: Make the vehicle text into two lines and combine the group stats to "Efficiency this (last) year: 76% (73%)" maybe?
12:26<nielsm>can try that
12:26<nielsm>how about the vehicle list itself?
12:36<Samu>last round remaining, the round that was generated via random.org
12:36<Samu>should pose some surprises
12:45<andythenorth>18 trains left to draw
12:48<andythenorth>jenkins hates me :) https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/iron-horse/
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12:53<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7353: Feature: Measure vehicle capacity utilisation efficiency https://git.io/fjXue
12:54<Samu>round 47 completed
12:54<Samu>and the tournament winner is...
12:55<Samu>NoNoCAB !!!!!!!!!
12:55<Samu>lies
12:55<Samu>AIAI !!!!!!!
12:55<+michi_cc>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=85573
12:55<Samu>AIAI v97 2407
12:55<Samu>; NoNoCAB v6 2377
12:56<Samu>AIAI with 2407 points, NoNoCAB 2nd with 2377 points
12:57<Samu>last place is WmDOT
12:58<Samu>with 120 points
12:58<nielsm>Samu: suggestions for next time: decide on a time limit per game ahead of time, so your running time isn't unbounded (maybe 50 or 100 years), decide on some fixed scenarios ahead of time and test each AI pairing in several different scenarios (doesn't have to be "scenario scenarios", just config and map) so the results are properly comparable
12:58<nielsm>and decide on scoring rules before you begin the testing and figure out if you can make your GS collect some more interesting statistics during each game
13:00<nielsm>maybe plan your scenarios so different qualities of AIs are tested, e.g. how well they perform on small maps, large maps, maps with lots of prebuilt roads, maps with lots of water, mountaneous maps, etc.
13:00<nielsm>few/many industries
13:01<Samu>i tried to diversify the worlds as most as I could
13:01<Samu>the worlds generated
13:01<nielsm>yes but if you test combination A vs B on a different scenario than combination A vs C, they the results of the two tests aren't really comparable
13:02<nielsm>maybe A has an advantage in the first and a disadvantage in the second due to scenario differences, and you couldn't tell if A wins first and loses second because it's better or worse than B or C, or because of the different scenarios
13:03<Samu>I know :( but then i'd be repeating the same config
13:03<nielsm>yes
13:03<nielsm>why is that bad?
13:03<nielsm>it makes your comparison actually usable
13:03<Samu>there isn't a single config that suits all ais properly
13:04<nielsm>no of course not
13:04<nielsm>that'
13:04<nielsm>and that's something your testing can uncover
13:04<nielsm>what configs and map types are well suited and poorly suited for each type
13:04<Wormnest>Nice to see that NoNoCab did wel Samu :)
13:05<Samu>Wormnest, WormAI on the other hand...
13:05<Samu>14th place with 1480 points
13:06<Samu>the scoring rules wasn't something I planned ahead of time
13:07<Samu>i had an idea how I would score them before I started, but then I realise my initial ideas wouldn't be too fair
13:07<Wormnest>Oh well, I know it has its weaknesses and it doesn´t do all vehicle types yet
13:07<Samu>that was in the middle of my 10th or so round
13:10<Samu>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/ptfzehexg - final score, i have an excel file of all of this with more details, it's just that it's an online file, dont know if u can open it
13:11<Samu>https://1drv.ms/x/s!Ah9vX-Q9n7IjigjxGip1K_SgIilv
13:13<Samu>my AI finished 3rd place which makes me wonder how biased were my configs...
13:14<Samu>who wants to download 730 MB of savegames?
13:15<Wormnest>Any config will be biased
13:18<Samu>nielsm, I'm quite surprised about EmotionAI and SimpleAI scores
13:18<nielsm>Wormnest yeah, that's why my suggestion is to run every AI pairing on multiple configs and maps
13:18<Samu>regarding the different combinations you mentioned
13:18<Samu>they ended right where they should end
13:18<Samu>next to each other
13:19<Samu>they're basically the same AI
13:19<Samu>I was kind of worried they'd be far apart from each other in the end, turns out they didn't
13:21<Samu>as I was scoring this, the battle for first and 2nd places were always between AIAI and NoNoCAB
13:22<Samu>it would be either of the two who would win
13:22<Wormnest>nielsm Yes, but still there´s so many settings that you can´t test all combinations
13:23<Samu>Terron initially was seen as not a real contender, but it managed to reach 3rd place near the end
13:24<Samu>my AI took that place in the last round, lucky
13:24<Samu>my AI was mostly on 4th and 5th places
13:24<Samu>turns out it ended 3rd
13:24<Wormnest>In most of my tests Terron did fairly well so I´m not surprised
13:25<Samu>it didn't start that well
13:25<Samu>i mean 7th 8th and such, not really that high
13:25<Samu>for me it was the big surprise
13:25<Samu>Terron
13:26<Samu>trAIns surprised me a big negatively
13:26<Samu>I honestly expected more
13:27<Samu>turns out the great times it was pulling out, were after a bankrupt
13:27<Samu>had I not changed the scoring rules
13:27<Samu>it would probably rank higher
13:33<Samu>@calc 70 * 47
13:33<@DorpsGek>Samu: 3290
13:34<Samu>@calc 2407/3290
13:34<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.731610942249
13:35<Samu>do I post the savegames, I mean is there any interest?
13:36<Samu>730 MB to the forum seems massive
13:36<@peter1138>I don't think anyone cares, no.
13:37<nielsm>you can put them in a google drive or onedrive shared folder and link that
13:38<@peter1138>Ever the pragmatist :D
13:44<Samu>synchronizing
13:44<Samu>to onedrive
13:47<Samu>how do i share folders with onedrive
13:48<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Ben79487 commented on issue #7655: Cheat window date '<' arrow incremements date https://git.io/fjXzI
13:48<Samu>nielsm, https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ah9vX-Q9n7IjjCp_bPR1lURTE6dA?e=X7rVOa
13:48<Samu>does this link work?
13:49<nielsm>I can open it and list the files
13:49<nielsm>and download a random file from it too
13:49<Samu>it's still syncing
13:50<nielsm>so yes that works
13:50<Samu>thx
13:51<Samu>i should post the OneNote file too
13:52<Samu>has some additional detains
13:52<Samu>details
13:52<Samu>like who vs who in each round
13:54<Samu>hmm how do i share one note stuff?
13:55<Samu>can only share via email? that sucks
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13:59<Samu>nielsm: can u try this link? https://1drv.ms/o/s!Ah9vX-Q9n7IjhHheJyvAuHltAA-5
13:59<nielsm>error
14:00<Samu>t.t
14:00<Samu>https://1drv.ms/o/s!Ah9vX-Q9n7IjhHheJyvAuHltAA-5
14:00<nielsm>same
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14:01<Samu>okay, must think
14:02<Samu>Edit link: https://1drv.ms/o/s!Ah9vX-Q9n7IjhHgGPNqMh69THrk8 plz dont change anything
14:02<Samu>View link: https://1drv.ms/o/s!Ah9vX-Q9n7IjhHheJyvAuHltAA-5
14:02<Samu>if neither works, i dunno what to do
14:12<Wormnest>All of those OneNote links work for me
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15:05<Samu>topic: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=85575
15:06<Samu>one final thing I wanna do, count all victories/losses, regardless of score
15:11<nielsm>look at my beautiful art: https://0x0.st/z9QY.jpg
15:11<nielsm>(station window ideas)
15:16<Samu>:)
15:16<Samu>use paint
15:17<nielsm>that only works when I already have a very good idea of what I want, I put too much work into details then
15:17<nielsm>hand drawn lets me focus more on form
15:19<andythenorth>sketch ftw
15:19<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7540: Change: New layout for the Station view window https://git.io/fjXzH
15:34<Samu>most first places
15:34<Samu>haha
15:34<Samu>my AI wins
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16:26<Samu>AIAI v97 2407 66 70 68 46 68 66 66 58 42 64 66 56 18 1 66 64 2 15 52 54 70 36 50 66 2 16 46 70 62 15 66 62 58 62 2 64 62 70 12 66 66 68 60 70 48 68 62
16:26<Samu>hmm
16:31<Samu>how do I create cells on the forum?
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16:34<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Gymnasiast commented on pull request #7540: Change: New layout for the Station view window https://git.io/fjXgn
16:34<andythenorth>nielsm: picture tells 1000 words? :)
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18:03<Samu>just noticed something
18:03<Samu>@calc 12 + 1*23
18:03<@DorpsGek>Samu: 35
18:04<Samu>@calc 70 - 2*23
18:04<@DorpsGek>Samu: 24
18:05<Samu>if all games are bankruptless, score goes from 70 to 24
18:05<Samu>if all games are bankrupted, score goes from 35 to 12
18:05<Samu>there's a small overlap there
18:06<Samu>too late to change the scores now, i guess it's fine anyway
18:07<Samu>just found an AI which had 24 points twice, but one was from winning bankruptless, the other was from winning with bankrupt
18:10<Samu>probably there were so many bankrupted victories in that round, 13+
18:10<Samu>12 + 1*12
18:10<Samu>@calc 12 + 1*12
18:10<@DorpsGek>Samu: 24
18:10<Samu>yeah, 13
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19:20<Samu>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=85575&p=1223464#p1223464
19:20<Samu>how do i make the code part show entirely?
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22:05<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ddm999 commented on pull request #7627: Fix #7626: Allow building of drive-through stops over one-way/blocked roads owned by towns (instead of crashing). https://git.io/fjXa0
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---Logclosed Mon Jul 15 00:00:08 2019