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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-07-21

---Logopened Sun Jul 21 00:00:17 2019
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03:03<@Alberth>o/
03:10<Eddi|zuHause>am i blind or does gimp not have the ability to draw geometric shapes? (rectangle, circle)
03:14<@Alberth>https://docs.gimp.org/en/gimp-using-rectangular.html your vision seems fine, but it has some ways apparently
03:14<Eddi|zuHause>i feel like i've never ever used a drawing program before
03:14<@Alberth>geometric shapes aren't very interesting in a drawing, probably
03:14<@Alberth>except for us techies :p
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03:19<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: now, how are these tools called in the german version?
03:20<@Alberth>assuming the chapter number is the same, is there german documentation?
03:23<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: possibly, but there's no link to it, and the url doesn't seem to be by chapter number
03:24<@Alberth>your local copy has no german docs?
03:25<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: ok, i managed to make a rectangle and a circle... but how do i draw a straight line then?
03:25<Eddi|zuHause>i feel this used to be easier
03:25<andythenorth>moin
03:26<andythenorth>FWIW, drawing shapes in photoshop is not easy :P
03:26<andythenorth>not sure that helps you
03:27<@Alberth>there is a link in that page to 14.1: https://docs.gimp.org/en/gimp-using-simpleobjects.html#gimp-using-line
03:27<@Alberth>I got a bunch of deprecated warnings in squirrel c++ code
03:28<@Alberth>also I totally forgot how hg mq works :p
03:28<Eddi|zuHause>hg qpush, qpop, qcommit?
03:29<Eddi|zuHause>i only really used hg queues from tortoisehg interface, though
03:30<@Alberth>yeah that rings a bell :)
03:37<Hazzard>HM
03:37<Hazzard>@logs
03:37<@DorpsGek>Hazzard: https://webster.openttdcoop.org/index.php?channel=openttd
03:38<@Alberth>eddi: just use a simplish standard windows paint thing?
03:42<Hazzard>Hey, does anyone know how road vehicle speed works? The cached speed is multiplied by 4 here https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/1.9.2/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp#L249 and divided by 2 here for station rating https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/1.9.2/src/economy.cpp#L1757 .. but in testing station rating it seems to be 1:1
03:45<@Alberth>simplest may be to add some debug print statements, and run a test with a single vehicle
03:46<@Alberth>that would at least show if your ideas about multiplying and dividing are right
03:48<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: i should probably use a vector program like inkscape :)
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03:50<@Alberth>would work too, although I do usually prefer pixels :)
03:52<Hazzard>Guess I'm finally going to have to compile my own version
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05:56<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Alberth289346 opened pull request #7663: Codechange: Remove unused FioTarFirstDir and FioTarAddLink functions https://git.io/fjMam
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06:43<Wolf01>So I need argon for steel... luckily I have one piece of iron to make the atmospheric condenser
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>i don't even know which planet you find argon on
06:45<Wolf01>Vesania
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>also, i'm still at 5fps
06:45<Wolf01>Or Glacio
06:45<Wolf01>Hmm
06:46<Wolf01>I don't have anymore performance drops since the last patch
06:46<Eddi|zuHause>it's not a drop... it's just straight 5fps :p
06:47<Wolf01>Not nice
06:48<Wolf01>Did you try a new game?
06:49<Wolf01>Oh, I also made the large solar panel, that's a beast
06:51<Wolf01>Uh oh, not enough power for the atmospheric condenser
06:51<Wolf01>I need copper
06:51<Eddi|zuHause>no, not a new game
06:51<Wolf01>Try a new game, it might be the terrain
06:53<Samu>Severity Code Description Project File Line Suppression State
06:53<Samu>Warning C26451 Arithmetic overflow: Using operator '+' on a 4 byte value and then casting the result to a 8 byte value. Cast the value to the wider type before calling operator '+' to avoid overflow (io.2). openttd D:\OPENTTD\OPENTTD GITHUB\OPENTTD\SRC\VEHICLE.CPP 1706
06:54<Samu>important warning or not really?
06:56<Samu>oh nvm, they're IntelliSense warnings
07:06<nielsm>it's still something to consider though
07:18<FLHerne>Wolf01: What game is this now?
07:18<Wolf01>Back to Sylva with a load of lithium and titanite
07:18<Wolf01>Astroneer
07:19<Wolf01>I need to find the last node on Sylva... I can't find it, maybe it's inside a mountain
08:16<@Alberth>hmm, someone added roadtypes :p
08:18<Eddi|zuHause>the last one was very hidden for me, too
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08:26<andythenorth>yo
08:32<andythenorth>did someone mention newgrf docks? o_O
08:32<Eddi|zuHause>are you reading 3 days ago?
08:41<andythenorth>maybe
08:42<andythenorth>also how can I make grfcodec faster? :P
08:42<Eddi|zuHause>alt+f4
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08:43<andythenorth>it was PEBKAC again
08:44<andythenorth>the full nml compile triggered because I pulled and got lang changes :P
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10:36<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] imcasper updated pull request #7653: Add: BuildVehicleSmartGUI https://git.io/fjXmK
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10:39<supermop_work>yo
10:40<andythenorth>yo
10:40<andythenorth>supermop_work: it's Sunday, even in NY
10:40<supermop_work>and yet, here i am
10:40<andythenorth>at work
10:40<supermop_work>i was in the office yesterday as well
10:42<supermop_work>i may have said this before, but if i prorate my salary over the hours i work now vs at my last job, i'm make a lot less money
10:44<andythenorth>is it fun?
10:44<supermop_work>no
10:44<supermop_work>last job was fun
10:45<supermop_work>this one is 20% more money and more 'known' company, and presumably more mature / less start-up y
10:46<andythenorth>oof
10:46<supermop_work>but it's also between 25 and 50% percent more hours a week, and aparently not all that mature
10:47<supermop_work>and i don't really get to do much designing anymore.
10:49<supermop_work>on one project that takes most of my time, im just doing production stuff like i did as a junior right out of school, and the other project i only am managing two younger designers who do all of the fun parts
10:49<supermop_work>oh well
10:49<supermop_work>how're the ponies
10:50<andythenorth>super
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>doesn't sound like a good deal...
10:51<andythenorth>supermop_work: I vinyl-wrapped a HST https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9475/very_vinyls.png
10:51<andythenorth>train 141
10:53<Eddi|zuHause>would it be better if the red stripes flipped around in the middle?
10:54<Eddi|zuHause>so it goes // // // // /\ \\ \\ \\ \\?
10:54<Eddi|zuHause>where "/ /" is one wagon
10:56<andythenorth>it would, but it's one of level of detail too far :)
10:56<andythenorth>the complexity is already high
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>but the end looks weird with the missing red pixels...
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>and it should be a simple switch
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>"position in consist > position in consist from end"
11:10<supermop_work>based on a real livery andythenorth ?
11:10<andythenorth>nah
11:11<supermop_work>lokes nice
11:11<supermop_work>looks
11:11<supermop_work>oof
11:11<andythenorth>all your lokes belong to us
11:22<Wolf01>Ok, enough astroneer is enough
11:23<andythenorth>it is?
11:23<Wolf01>Yes, it is, at least for today
11:28<Wolf01>So, how can I set the preferred audio device for a software? (win 10)
11:29<Wolf01>Some apps use every output they see, others are bound to the default one :/
11:34<Wolf01>Oh, found it
11:35<Wolf01>Luckily I already use ear trumpet as audio mixer, but the option is really well hidden
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>have you gone to the lander?
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12:52<andythenorth>Horse 96%
13:01<Samu>Maximum memory allocation exceeded
13:02<Samu>RIP AIs
13:02<Samu>RIP NoNoCAB
13:04<Samu>8GB per script now
13:04<Samu>@calc 8 * 15
13:04<@DorpsGek>Samu: 120
13:04<Samu>:)
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13:14<Wolf01><Eddi|zuHause> have you gone to the lander? <- yes, took the long way around, it was south of my base and I zig-zag travelled to north until I found it, I could have reached it by foot...
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>hehe :)
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't actually been to desolo yet
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>but i have my rocket fueled up, just need to load it
13:15<Wolf01>Also I got lost going back to the base, because then I travelled on the equator...
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>i know that feeling
13:17<Wolf01>Today I put a large shredder on a large rover, some batteries and started recycling every wreck I found, made a lot of credits
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>i only have a medium shredder
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>and half the items that look medium don't fit in there
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>and it seems partially shredded stacks disappear from the shredder if you save and reload
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>which annoys me
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13:30<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #7663: Codechange: Remove unused FioTarFirstDir and FioTarAddLink functions https://git.io/fjMor
13:37<Wolf01>That annoys me too, a lot of things get stuck when reloading a save
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13:38<Wolf01>Smelters seem to have been fixed, but chemistry labs still get stuck
13:41<Samu>strcmp("start_date", name) == 0
13:41<Samu>!strcmp(config_item.name, "start_date")
13:41<Samu>strcmp("start_date", name) != 0
13:41<Samu>this confused the heck out o me
13:42<LordAro>Samu: strcmp is weird, its return values are -1,0,1. While it *can* be used as a boolean comparison (0 == false), you shouldn't
13:42<Samu>i didn't
13:42<LordAro>:)
13:42<Samu>openttd uses that though
13:43<LordAro>doesn't mean it should :p
13:43<Samu>did you see my PR? what do you think of all that
13:43<LordAro>i've not looked
13:43<Samu>:|
13:45<Samu>tried to do it " more sane, understandable and predictable." - your words *cough*
13:46<Samu>dont know if the PR reflects that as you imagined
13:46<LordAro>i probably don't either :p
13:48<Samu>i didn't remove an unused string
13:48<Samu>maybe i should put a note in there
13:48<LordAro>sounds like you should remove it
13:50<FLHerne>Samu: https://ozlabs.org/~rusty/index.cgi/tech/2008-04-01.html (see -7)
13:51<Samu>nonsafe website alarm
13:51<LordAro>wow FLHerne, are you trying to give out viruses?
13:51<LordAro>:p
13:52<FLHerne>In what way is it supposed to be nonsafe?
13:52<Samu>data is non encrypted bla bla, ok i proceed
13:53<LordAro>FLHerne: lots of http images, which firefox is blocking for me
13:53<LordAro>images, css & js*
13:53<FLHerne>Oh, so does Chromium, I just didn't notice their absence because they were all pointless
13:54<FLHerne>I don't understand blocking mixed-content, at least while plain http sites are still accepted
13:54<LordAro>depends what's being loaded
13:54<LordAro>especially things like js - it could be MitM'd and load all kinds of other stuff
13:55<FLHerne>It might slightly mislead the user, but most users wouldn't care if the whole site lacked SSL
13:55<FLHerne>Yeah, but browsers are perfectly happy to load JS over http, so long as the page it's referenced from is also
13:56<Samu>'ve been coding in C for about 20 years, and about five years ago I spent an hour chasing a case where I'd done if (strcmp(arg, "foo")) instead of if (!strcmp(arg, "foo"))
13:57<Samu>well that's the code openttd has there
13:57<Samu>not my fault
13:57<Samu>i didn't reuse it
13:58<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #7661: Codechange: Rework 'start_date' parameter for AIs as a game setting https://git.io/fjMop
13:59<Samu>i'm not good at editing all the lang files to delete a single line :(
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: how broken on this list is something like openssl?
14:00<Samu>i tried in previous PRs and it became a whole mess of a PR
14:00<Samu>hard to navigate
14:02<LordAro>by my count there are 3 !strcmps in ottd's source
14:03<Samu>they're all start_date ?
14:03<Samu>I bet
14:03<LordAro>nope
14:03<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Quite a way down from what I've heard?
14:04<FLHerne>Thankfully I haven't had an excuse to find out
14:04<FLHerne>(there's also the inverse list, https://ozlabs.org/~rusty/index.cgi/tech/2008-03-30.html
14:04<FLHerne>)
14:04<Samu>136 matching lines
14:04<Samu>how did u only find 3
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: i would have assumed so, but couldn't find a link
14:05<Samu>oh "!strcmps", nvm
14:06<LordAro>there are 145 "strcmp"s :p
14:06<LordAro>(well, 145 lines containing strcmp, there may be more than one on a line)
14:06<Samu>I found 2 "!strcmp"
14:07<Samu>wait a min, im on my branch, :o
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14:07<Beerbelott>Which cargo are being used t ogrow towns in Toyland?
14:07<Beerbelott>I read toys replace goods, but supplying goods to a town doesn't make it grow
14:08<Beerbelott>Suplying sweets & fizzy drinks (though not toys) doesn't work either
14:09<Beerbelott>Do you need to supply *all* 3 to make towns grow?
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>when i programmed the user interface for the last machine, i always went by the motto: "a person pressing random buttons should not be able to destroy it"
14:10<Samu>it already grows on its own
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>the product might be toast, but the machine should survive it
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>and any truely dangerous functions are locked behind a password
14:11<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7663: Codechange: Remove unused FioTarFirstDir and FioTarAddLink functions https://git.io/fjMam
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14:26<Eddi|zuHause>yes, youtube, i certainly always wanted to learn how to build a shade or rain visor for my bee hive
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14:31<Eddi|zuHause>Beerbelott: i've never played toyland for more than 5 minutes, but generally there's two things that have town influence: food and water. both need to be provided
14:34<Beerbelott>In normal games it seems only goods were used to grow towns
14:35<Beerbelott>Were those encapsulating any town need?
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>goods have no special effect on town growth
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>it's a widespread myth, but completely unfounded
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>the only thing that affects town growth speed is the amount of stations serviced (meaning at least 1 unit of cargo loaded or unloaded recently)
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>and towns don't grow if the required cargos (food, water, depending on climate) are missing
14:38<Beerbelott>Ah. I was down for that myth all the way then :D
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>GameScripts can override these rules
14:38<Beerbelott>Mmmmh.
14:39<Beerbelott>How do you know what atown *requires*?
14:39<Beerbelott>I can see what some stations *accept*
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>regular towns don't "require" anything, towns above the snowline require food, and towns in the desert require food and water
14:39<nielsm>the town window
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>possibly the town window now tells you
14:40<nielsm>it will say if the town requires a certain thing to be able to grow
14:40<Beerbelott>"Town is not growing"
14:40<nielsm>that's not it
14:40<nielsm>start a vanilla game in subtropical climata
14:40<andythenorth>hmm
14:40<nielsm>and check one of the desert towns
14:40*andythenorth needs some way to implement liveries :P
14:41<nielsm>it will clearly says it requires food and water
14:41<andythenorth>'needs'
14:41<andythenorth>'wants'
14:41<Beerbelott>OK then this climate doesn't require anything special
14:41<Beerbelott>I got passengers delivered from/to 2 other cities fro mthe current one. Sweets & toys are also delivered
14:41<Beerbelott>I was delivering fizzy drinks but the stations (town?) stpped accepting them
14:42<nielsm>that's the trick with toyland
14:42<nielsm>the outer town zones accept one final good, the inner town zones a different final good
14:42<Beerbelott>basically I am providing quite some stuff... THe town hasn't grown past ~2k initila population
14:42<Beerbelott>Hm.
14:43<Beerbelott>Fizzy drinks area seems to move around
14:43<Beerbelott>sometimes I need a final truck service to conenct station & town
14:43<Beerbelott>then suddenly the station will accept fizzy drinks making my truck connection useless
14:43<Beerbelott>it will flip/flop quite often
14:45<nielsm>you could "cheat" and make huge catchment area station with lorry bays spread around
14:49<Beerbelott>Yup. But I do those count as independent stations toward the local authority reputation?
14:49<Beerbelott>because, as not having anything delivered, that could hurt the score
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>no
14:49<Beerbelott>OK
14:49<Beerbelott>Well I did that in the past but cleaned them afterwards. Was probably a mistake
14:50<Beerbelott>I still don't understand why the town was flip-flopping
14:50<nielsm>fizzy drinks seems to be the inner city good, sweets the suburbs good
14:50<Beerbelott>If only it grew, I could have understood that the curret needs were satisfied, and it needed to grow before resuming demand
14:50<nielsm>although it also does seem that inner city can keep accepting sweets
14:50<nielsm>(I just tried making a 20k pop city in scenario editor)
14:51<Beerbelott>Yup if you position a lorry station in town, it always has sweets
14:51<Beerbelott>demands sweets*
14:51<Beerbelott>*accepts*
14:51<Beerbelott>here we go :D
14:52<Beerbelott>Well the city I'm currently targeting accepts toys, sweets & fizzy drinks on the train station now. All 3 provided
14:52<Beerbelott>No grow.
14:52<Beerbelott>growth*
14:52<Beerbelott>Pax still delivered/transported from/to 2 other cities
14:52<nielsm>toys is accepted by an industry iirc
14:52<Beerbelott>(in very low volume though)
14:53<nielsm>remember the most important for town growth is having four stations with regular *pickups*
14:53<Beerbelott>Toy shop yup
14:53<Beerbelott>four?
14:53<nielsm>up to four stations improve town growth
14:53<nielsm>more than four has the same effect as four
14:53<Beerbelott>Oooh. Didn't know that
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14:54<nielsm>which is why the best you can do to grow a town is place four bus stops in it and make a circle line
14:58<Beerbelott>Feels like an exploit
14:58<Beerbelott>But OK now I understand why I saw that often
14:59<nielsm>you should see what the standard operating procedure in Citymania community is then
14:59<nielsm>(CM is an OTTD fork based around citybuilder game scripts)
14:59<nielsm>abuse station spread and distant join
15:00<nielsm>to make an endless row of bus stops with alternating station names
15:00<nielsm>bus starts, drives a tile, arrives at next stop, drives a tile without turning around, arrives at first stop again
15:13<@peter1138>Hi
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15:28<Beerbelott>nielsm: Thx for those tips :)
15:28<Beerbelott>I am also noticing sth I am not used to. Is reliability now progressively improving over a vehicle's model life?
15:29<Beerbelott>Is it sth specific to toyland climate?
15:29<nielsm>it's normal that vehicle reliability starts low, rises to max, stays for several years, then drops off
15:30<Beerbelott>I'm talking about stats for new models
15:30<Beerbelott>Never noticed those were moving
15:30<Beerbelott>models' description in sho
15:30<Beerbelott>shop
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>they always did that
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>that's why it's sometimes bad to pick previews, as the initial reliability could be very low
15:35<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ZornsLemma opened pull request #7664: Extended heightmap support https://git.io/fjMPe
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>that is a ... large... PR
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>could use some squashing, i suppose
15:36<nielsm>it can probably be cleaned up
15:36<nielsm>yeah well as long as it's draft it can be messy
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>and it'll fail all the commit checks :p
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15:58<andythenorth>Horse 96%
16:13<@peter1138>Is that up or down?
16:14<andythenorth>up
16:14<andythenorth>11 trains left to draw
16:14<andythenorth>346 drawn
16:15<andythenorth>can probably just copy-paste them?
16:15<andythenorth>o_O
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16:39<Samu>crap, i thought i had published a branch i made 4 months ago and I didn't
16:42<Samu>https://github.com/SamuXarick/OpenTTD/tree/SamuPatchPack
16:42<Samu>there
16:43<Samu>i am considering posting a win x64 build of this in the forum
16:44<Samu>because, i dunno, i'd like some other ppl to try it
16:44<Samu>have feedback
16:44<Samu>etc
16:44<Samu>dont know if i should
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17:32<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7664: Extended heightmap support https://git.io/fjMXc
17:34<Samu>rebasing is failing hard... framerate_gui.cpp suffered so many changes in these last 4 months
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17:35<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7664: Extended heightmap support https://git.io/fjMX8
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17:43<Samu>oh right, memory allocation...
17:44<Samu>versus max op codes
17:44<Samu>that was bound to conflict
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17:48<Samu>WID_FRW_ALLOCSIZE versus WID_FRW_TIMES_OPCODES
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18:01<Samu>CompanyByte is now CompanyID
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18:08<Samu>https://imgur.com/EdHASrq
18:08<Samu>more columns needed :)
18:09<Samu>rebase kind of works
18:09<Samu>after some conflicts
18:17<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ZornsLemma commented on pull request #7664: Extended heightmap support https://git.io/fjMXa
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18:29<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #7664: Extended heightmap support https://git.io/fjMX6
18:36<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ZornsLemma updated pull request #7664: Extended heightmap support https://git.io/fjMPe
18:38<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ZornsLemma commented on pull request #7664: Extended heightmap support https://git.io/fjMXD
18:41<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #7664: Extended heightmap support https://git.io/fjMXS
18:41<Samu>so I renamed my branch and now win_32.cpp compiler fails
18:41<Samu>i shouldn't rename branches :(
18:43<Samu>main.c something from compile
18:43<Samu>retrying
18:45<Samu>ah, it compiled now
18:45<Samu>false alarm
18:46<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ZornsLemma updated pull request #7664: Extended heightmap support https://git.io/fjMPe
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19:05<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7661: Codechange: Rework 'start_date' parameter for AIs as a game setting https://git.io/fjMsZ
19:12<Samu>how do you mark a PR a Draft
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19:51<+glx>when you create it, you can't do it after the creation
19:57<Samu>where should I post binaries for ppl to test?
19:57<Samu>which forum
19:59<Samu>OpenTTD Development?
19:59<Samu>General OpenTTD?
20:00<Samu>OpenTTD AIs and Game Scripts?
20:00<Samu>it's focused towards AI gui features
20:00<Samu>[img]https://i.imgur.com/5qytsJ9.png[/img]
20:40<Samu>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=85608
20:55<Samu>the pool options are nearly invisible
20:56<Samu>poll*
21:21<Samu>what the heck have you done to ai goal text updating? feels slow in multiplayer
21:21<Samu>or am I being paranoid
21:24<Samu>im being paranoid, disregard
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---Logclosed Mon Jul 22 00:00:19 2019