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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-07-25

---Logopened Thu Jul 25 00:00:23 2019
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02:54<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #7602: There are 22 known save games that crash OpenTTD (latest master) on load.
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03:59<andythenorth>Horse 98%
04:48<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7602: There are 22 known save games that crash OpenTTD (latest master) on load.
05:01<@peter1138>Damn, I'm not signed in to github :/
05:03<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on issue #7602: There are 22 known save games that crash OpenTTD (latest master) on load.
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06:08<LordAro>some sort of automated savegame testing is looking increasingly needed
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06:24<@peter1138>Go for it ;)
06:43*LordAro melting
07:06<@peter1138>Our aircon works :D
07:08<@peter1138>As does the automatic ice cube maker.
07:20<andythenorth>our aircon is awaiting an upgraded power connection to the building :p
07:21<nakki>office aircon makes me wanna never leave
07:21<nakki>but i've got three weeks of vacation after tomorrow
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07:59<Samu>the multidocks thing claims its first victim
07:59<Samu>RIP Terron
08:00<Samu>"Your script made an error: empty array"
08:01<Samu>i can't view code on this system
08:03<LordAro>peter1138: ours is broken :(
08:03<LordAro>peter1138: also, what was with your effort this morning? :p
08:07<Samu>opening text files here show everything without paragraphs, all into a single line
08:08<Samu>code files
08:11<Samu>can only execute stuff that doesnt require admin rights
08:11<Samu>bah, have no rights to this system
08:13<LordAro>Samu: don't use notepad
08:15<Samu>trying to download notepad++
08:15<Samu>then hope I can extract it, and run without admin rights
08:16<Samu>wow, i can!
08:16<Samu>i still have a problem... .tar files
08:17<Samu>can't open .tar here, bah, I'm so limited
08:19<Samu>this is my future, handicapped, limited,
08:19<Samu>i hate myself, I hate my life
08:21<Samu>can't do half the things I could before
08:21<LordAro>dare i ask what changed?
08:22<@peter1138>LordAro, I... er... Hmm...
08:25<Samu>it's my father... he can't take care of me anytime soon
08:26<Samu>and I'm not independent
08:54<FLHerne>Samu: > everything without paragraphs, all into a single line < is probably your editor being set to use Windows-style line endings (\r\n)
08:55<FLHerne>Whereas most source code uses Unix-style endings (just \n)
08:56<Samu>need to be able to extract .tar files
08:57<Samu>notepad++ can run here
08:57<LordAro>Samu: 7zip shouldn't need installing either
08:57<Samu>ok, let me try
09:01<Samu>can't intall it
09:01<nakki>you don't need to
09:02<Samu>where are you downloading it
09:06<Arveen>there is a portable version of 7zip
09:18<@peter1138>"Our supreme 1KG is pack perfect for family sharing or even just for yourself if you are a true Biltong King or Queen."
09:19<@peter1138>Well damn, eating 1kg of biltong might have some side effects, heh.
09:34<rubenwardy>it's cured meat, which will keep for ages
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09:49<nielsm>right, power issues and brownouts continued well into the night, so I was probably right in just shutting down and unplugging most stuff last night :s
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12:04<Samu>this will serve
12:18<Samu>okay, terron was trying to build buoys
12:18<Samu>or, actually, pathfinding
12:18<Samu>and somewhere it received an empty array error
12:19<Samu>did something change about buoys recently?
12:19<Samu>Quadtree water pathfinder
12:22<Samu>how would this work with multidocks..
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13:03<Samu>uhm, forget the multidocks thing
13:04<Samu>terron has some quadtree functions. not sure what's a quadtree, or how it works
13:04<Samu>GetIntersection returned no tiles
13:05<Samu>local qt = big_qt.GetIntersection(x, y, x, y, -1).pop();
13:06<Samu>can't it intersect with itself?
13:06<Samu>i dunno for sure what's it doing though
13:06<Samu>but it doesn't look like a multidock problem after all
13:13<Samu>too complex for me
13:14<Samu>it's not usual to see a Terron crash
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13:54<andythenorth>what are the tile dimensions of this industry? o_O
13:55<nielsm>maybe 10x6
13:55<nielsm>or 10x8
13:57<andythenorth>it goes a long way into the distance :)
13:58<nielsm>it looks like a good candidate for multi-building industries :P
14:02<Samu>can this be updated to 1.9.2
14:03<Samu>or there's no changes between 1.9.0 and 1.9.2?
14:05<nielsm>I suppose there are, except I'm not sure the documentation was updated in the source
14:06<nielsm>since iirc in 1.9.2 you can now find train-less wagons in depots
14:06<nielsm>(so they aren't entirely lost)
14:10<Samu>hmm maybe that's why Trans is going dumb
14:10<Samu>about trains
14:10<Samu>what's a train 0?
14:10<Samu>a wagon?
14:11<Samu>Trans builds a rail route, then when it tries to build trains... it goes nuts
14:11<andythenorth>industry sublayouts you think nielsm? o_O
14:12<andythenorth>stations are proportionate there? :P
14:14<nielsm>yeah I've talked about it before :) instead of defining a bunch of fixed layouts for industries, you define multiple sets of layouts for different "buildings" (one of them is the main building) and the game places multiple buildings around the area according to some defined rules
14:15<nielsm>well maybe similar could be achieved by adding in the proposed industry-spawned newobjects
14:15<nielsm>though those would probably also need to be defined for cargo accepts/supplies
14:16<nielsm>(IMO it could be interesting if some buildings in an industry only accepted and some only supplied, and it spans a very large area)
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14:20<nielsm>hmm the blitter really doesnt have a way to draw anything that isn't a sprite loaded from a GRF file, right?
14:21<nielsm>(and truetype text is very special cased?)
14:21<LordAro>i think it can draw rectangles as well
14:21<nielsm>well also that
14:22<nielsm>but yeah the thought was how much work it would be to someone render a profile image from an external user inside the game gui, the answer is probably "very much work"
14:22<nielsm>(especially if we're doing 8bpp blitter)
14:22<LordAro>i would expect so, yes
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14:41<nielsm>NetworkAddress::GetAddressAsString() is great to have... but I can't find anything that parses those strings back?
14:42<nielsm>oh, ParseConnectionString
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16:01<Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> what are the tile dimensions of this industry? o_O <-- can easily scale that down to 5x4 or 6x4
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>concentrate on 2 or 3 main buildings, sprinkling in some storage area
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16:04<andythenorth>I already did that :P
16:06<andythenorth>I am mostly curious if huge industries are more useful in game
16:07<Eddi|zuHause><nielsm> (IMO it could be interesting if some buildings in an industry only accepted and some only supplied, and it spans a very large area) <-- that will only lead to two things: a) players stationwalking to cover the whole industry, b) players complaining that their station doesn't accept X even though they covered the station (see default oil refinery)
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: last time you tried huge industries you complained about the game not being able to spawn them on hilly maps
16:07<andythenorth>yes, that is why they're not in FIRS
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16:08<Eddi|zuHause>you could make it a parameter
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>with a warning that you should play smoother maps if enabled
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>also, some placement check to leave space between industries for stations
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16:10<andythenorth>I'm curious about sub-layouts
16:10<andythenorth>hmm, but I could fake those compile side
16:10<andythenorth>doesn't need OpenTTD changes
16:10<Samu>I think 1.9.2 broke Trans
16:10<Samu>1.9.1 it still builds trains properly
16:11<Samu>at least from what I remember from my AI tournament
16:12<andythenorth>looks like it's possible to have up to 255 layouts for an industry
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>is that a challenge?
16:13<andythenorth>it's not a very interesting one
16:13<andythenorth>say, 3 sub-modules
16:13<andythenorth>255 different arrangements of them
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>3 sub modules, 4 layouts each, is already 6 bits, leaving 2 bits for macro arrangement
16:14<andythenorth>if I do it compile side, I'd have to faff about with the current height checks
16:14<andythenorth>they assume contiguous layouts
16:15<andythenorth>I'd need to know which sub-layout I was in, which means a very large switch to match the tile index to a sub-layout
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds backwards
16:16<andythenorth>it does, but I think in this case I'm correct
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>also, couldn't the sublayouts have different heights?
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16:16<andythenorth>tiles need to be same height within the sub-layout
16:17<andythenorth>but allow different between the sub-layouts
16:17<andythenorth>current code checks that all tiles are same height as N tile (with some faff about allowing lowered corners)
16:17<andythenorth>so instead I'd need to reference the N tile for the sub-layout
16:17<andythenorth>which is possible
16:18<andythenorth>just one big switch, or a lot of small ones
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>the industry's height check would branch into the 3 sublayouts
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>and the 3 sublayouts then check their respective tiles
16:18<andythenorth>if it was done in the newgrf spec, yes
16:19<andythenorth>I am thinking of the compile-side, no spec change solution
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>i'm thinking the same
16:19<andythenorth>well there's no concept afaict of a sub-layout
16:20<andythenorth>only the tile index
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>how does the height check work currently?
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>is it an industry callback, or an industrytile callback, or what?
16:21<andythenorth>industry tile cb
16:21<Samu>how do i download 1.9.1 as a zip?
16:22<Samu>want to check Trans there
16:22<andythenorth>both are possible, but for allowing / forbidding construction on a specific tile, it's a tile cb
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>so it is called for each tile, and you reference PARENT for north corner location?
16:23<andythenorth>^ that is a check that allows building industries that look 'flat' but may actually have lowered corners on some tiles
16:24<andythenorth>which seems to aid not having broken chains somewhat
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>and relative_x/relative_y are industrytile variables?
16:27<Samu>found it
16:27<andythenorth>some kind of expression magic
16:27<andythenorth>actually no, just a var
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>your location check kinda fails if the north corner is not part of the industy (but that's not really the point right now)
16:30<andythenorth>yes there is that case
16:30<andythenorth>there are industries that would fail on that
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>an industry tile has an ID number, right?
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>is that available in this callback?
16:31<andythenorth>I would expect so
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>you could use that number to encode the sublayout position
16:31<andythenorth>only 255 tile IDs, I'm running out...
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>say, you have 3 sublayouts in a 4x4 pattern, then the 1st sublayout gets IDs 0..15, the 2nd 16..31 and the 3rd 32..47
16:32<andythenorth>IDs are scarce
16:32<andythenorth>FIRS has consumed 121 / 256 so far
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>you can reuse tile IDs between industries, right?
16:33<andythenorth>unique to grf
16:33<andythenorth>unless I missed a memo
16:33<andythenorth>"Industry tile IDs are local to the NewGRF, you are free to choose any ID in the 0..255-range"
16:34<andythenorth>it wouldn't be hard to deduce a sub-layout from a tile index, it's just verbose
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>hm, then each industry tile would need to query the industry type of the parent industry to decide anything
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>so each industry tile callback would do a switch on industry type
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>dunno if that has any performance impact
16:35<andythenorth>I could detect the sub-layout early in the chain, store it, reuse it where needed
16:35<andythenorth>it's something like (number of tiles in the layout) * (number of total layouts) though
16:36<andythenorth>so it _might_ affect compile time :P
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>that's just a massive lookup table
16:36<andythenorth>so is bigger desirable? o_O
16:37<andythenorth>that's fake :P
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>definetly would benefit some playstyles
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>but like i said, it should probably be optional
16:38<Samu>just confirmed: Trans can build trains properly in 1.9.1
16:39<andythenorth>Steeltown tends to concentrate many primaries onto a handful of secondaries
16:39<Samu>gonna test 1.9.2 just to be sure
16:39<andythenorth>which seem like they should be bigger
16:39<andythenorth>it's plausible that I could just include bigger layouts, and the game will use the smaller one if it can't manage the bigger
16:40<andythenorth>I can't weight specific layouts trivially though
16:42<andythenorth>CB 28 doesn't have any 'number of attempts' var or similar
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>no, you should not mix small and large layouts
16:45<Samu>strange, it can build trains in 1.9.2
16:45<Samu>something between 1.9.2 and the build on 21st july?
16:45<nielsm> just playing with window layouts here
16:46<nielsm>needs some more spacing around places
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>too much bloat text, too little context?
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>also, would that turn an SP game into an MP server?
16:47<nielsm>not yet, for the latter
16:47<nielsm>that would be a lot of work :)
16:47<nielsm>right now I only offer it for MP games
16:47<nielsm>and only if the player is not hosting the server
16:48<nielsm>(also need to add detection for local or internet server, so it isn't offered for LAN-only servers)
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>how would you detect that?
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>unadvertised servers can still be internet
16:49<nielsm>check the address of the server
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>that wouldn't detect NAT forwarding
16:49<nielsm>if it's or or one of the other known private networks, assume it's local
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>that'd exclude pretty much any home setup
16:50<nielsm>yes if you're hosting the server inside your own firewall
16:50<nielsm>and playing on the server yourself
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>... which would be about 100% of your target audience
16:51<nielsm>I haven't tried to handle the "client is the server" case at all yet
16:51<nielsm>there's tons of work on that
16:51<nielsm>I know
16:52<andythenorth>off the last 6 trains for Horse :(
16:52<andythenorth>I am very uninterested in drawing 4 of them :P
16:52<nielsm>the current network protocol itself would also need a way for the client to ask the server for its internet-routable address
16:53<nielsm>which it could maybe (only maybe) get by asking the master server about itself
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>could these "friend" services work as a proxy?
16:54<nielsm>discord does offer a pseudo-p2p connection api that pretends to be stream oriented while actually doing UDP and being capable of NAT punching
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>(that might avoid loads of router configuration problems, but open a new can of worms)
16:54<nielsm>but then you have to buy into their API wholesale
16:55<nielsm>or we could implement our own version of the same, though it would require some cooperation of a master server of some sort
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>nielsm: but that you could handle inside your DLL, which would just open a local port that pretends to be the server?
16:56<nielsm>maybe possible
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>or pretends to be the client, on the server side
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>that might actually be an interesting feature to pursue
16:58<nielsm>but when if the server is a dedicated server running on linux on machine A on my home network, machine A is not exposed on the router, and I play from machine B running windows, and then I invite my friend to play? there is no discord API or network proxy on machine A
16:58<nielsm>then machine B would have to act as proxy?
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>well, you could still try to figure out the public IP first, and fallback to the proxy method if it fails
16:59<Samu>hmm question, where can I download the nightly of 22nd july?
17:00<Samu>current one is 23
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>or disable the invite functionality in certain conditions
17:01<Samu>still chasing a bug
17:01<nielsm>Eddi|zuHause: that's why I initially intend to disable it if the server is the local machine, or the server is a known private network IP range
17:02<nielsm>yes it shuts out a lot of the most interesting cases, but it's also much less work initially
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>nielsm: i'd rather pursue the "A plays on his windows PC on a non-dedicated server" case rather than worry about "but what if the server is on linux?"
17:04<nielsm>right now starting a listen server does not even mark you as being in a multiplayer game :P
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>or, on starting the server you decide whether it should be announced on the masterserver, via discord, or both
17:04<nielsm>(it doesn't even mark you as being in a game at all!)
17:04<Samu>i know you guys are busy, but hmm, no way to download old nightlies?
17:04<Samu>just 1 day older than current
17:04<nielsm>Samu you can try to guess the URL from date and revision hash
17:05<nielsm>there were only 3 commits on the 22nd so very few hashes to try
17:05<LordAro>hmm, still no listing of old nightlies, is there?
17:05<LordAro>is it 90 that are kept?
17:06<Samu>gonna try to guess :o
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: i don't know how it is currently, but there used to be some cutoff where only sources of nightlies were ckept
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>the binaries get discarded
17:07<LordAro>maybe that's what i'm thinking of
17:08<Samu> it has a page
17:08<Samu>and it downloads, ok, testing... brb
17:12<Samu>bug is present on 20190722
17:12<Samu>not present on 20190723
17:12<Samu>fml, i built my experimental build based on 22nd
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17:14<Samu>i'm stuck, i need my computer t.t
17:14<Samu>oh well, at least I know what it is now
17:14<Samu>it's not Trans, it was openttd
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17:16<Samu>thx, cyas
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17:17<nielsm>Eddi|zuHause: if you want to inspect or even test, I pushed my ottd branch and my discord dll now
17:17<nielsm>actually I should maybe make a new dll build
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>nielsm: i don't have any windows available
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>nor discord
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17:18<nielsm>(I'd also prefer to be without discord)
17:27<+glx>but nothing really changed in this area between 22 and 23
17:27<+glx>oups was scrolled
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17:35<Eddi|zuHause>yes, youtube, i definitely want to watch this new video "ABC" by this up-and-coming band "Jackson 5"
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>(that probably came out before i was born)
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20:42-!-acklen is "Matt" on #openttd
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---Logclosed Fri Jul 26 00:00:24 2019