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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-07-28

---Logopened Sun Jul 28 00:00:27 2019
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03:49<andythenorth>hello
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06:02<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on issue #7670: Road vehicle ticks is higher in YAPF than in NPF https://git.io/fjyDU
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06:13<Samu>need to post more screenshots
06:14<Samu>i would post a giant screenshot but i doubt ppl would look at it
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06:27<Samu>oh boy this is quite the network
06:29<Samu>map is 1024x1024, the affected vehicles are near the center of the map, a little bit to the north of it
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06:30<Samu>the roads in Brunston, to the south east of those rail lines town are isolated,but the one that goes northwest is connected to a giant network of roads
06:32<Samu>multiple connected roads to several other towns, industries, bridges, a big big network of roads, I would say it can connect to at least most of the entire side of the map, and the left side as well, and I just got into a road that can lead to the south side too, so... it's giant
06:33<Samu>most of the entire *north* side of the map
06:35<Samu>many road AIs in the game
06:35<Samu>and their way of building roads, you can imagine the kind of network that is, if you're familiar with how they build
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06:47<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on issue #7670: Road vehicle ticks is higher in YAPF than in NPF https://git.io/fjy9w
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08:12<Samu>LordAro: I found the cause
08:12<Samu>i'm nearly sure it's due to the way the cache works
08:13<Samu>when the road vehicle is about to enter the last tile that is in cache
08:13<Samu>and is stuck in traffic
08:13<Samu>which is the case
08:13<Samu>it calls the pathfinder insistently
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08:14<Samu>vehicle is "moving" at 0 km/h and constantly calling the pathfinder, which take 35000 ms each
08:15<Samu>it happens that the road network is at, is such a big one, it doesn't find a path
08:15<Samu>nothing is cached
08:15<Samu>because it's the last tile
08:15<Samu>so it retries pathfinding all the time
08:16<Samu>dbg: [yapf] [YAPFr]! 368- 37672 us - 10001 rounds - 63 open - 10000 closed - CHR 0.0% - C -1 D -1 - c0(sc0, ts0, o0) -- dbg: [yapf] [YAPFr]! 368- 34459 us - 10001 rounds - 63 open - 10000 closed - CHR 0.0% - C -1 D -1 - c0(sc0, ts0, o0) -- dbg: [yapf] [YAPFr]! 368- 42715 us - 10001 rounds - 63 open - 10000 closed - CHR 0.0% - C -1 D -1 - c0(sc0, ts0, o0) -- dbg: [yapf] [YAPFr]! 368- 33536 us - 10001 rounds - 63 open - 10000 closed - CHR
08:20<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #7672: Crash when opening Game Options https://git.io/fjyHk
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08:33<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on issue #7670: Road vehicle ticks is higher in YAPF than in NPF https://git.io/fjyHm
08:37<Samu>I still can't provide a savegame, but this is it
08:40<LordAro>Samu: gj
08:43<Samu>i said northeast, i meant northwest
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09:14<Samu>dual core system limits me so much
09:15<Samu>can't run 2 openttd and youtube at the same time, it's slowing down too much for my liking
09:15<Samu>I want my system back
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09:26<Samu>ppl badmouth the FX cpu series but now that I'm on a dual core system, I really feel limited in how many stuff I can run on it
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09:54<Samu>there's some weird bugs with road consutrction
09:54<Samu>doesn't build the same manner as before
09:55<Samu>"land slopped in wrong direction" ... yeah, kinda true, but the last is already autosloped
09:56<Samu>it fails to detect that
10:04<Samu>im trying to manually build a giant road network
10:11<LordAro>just lots of junctions should do it
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10:11<LordAro>dense as you can
10:11<LordAro>i was using a flat blank map earlier
10:11<LordAro>makes it easier :p
10:13<+glx>I'm trying to reproduce #7672
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10:21<+glx>hmm unless there are more than 32 resolutions
10:21<+glx>let's try something
10:23<Samu>omgggg im so dumb, i built a network on the wrong openttd version
10:23<Samu>fml
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10:26<+glx>ok that's it
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10:37<Eddi|zuHause>32 resolutions ought to be enough for anyone
10:38<+glx>yeah but it's now unlimited since https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/commit/9195f2337a7c4f9154058877093bbb74db33cf32
10:38<+glx>I need to adapt some code :)
10:38<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #7672: Crash when opening Game Options https://git.io/fjyQq
10:48<LordAro>glx: how does more than 32 resolutions break it?
10:49<+glx>if (IsInsideMM(ind, (SPECSTR_RESOLUTION_START - 0x70E4), (SPECSTR_RESOLUTION_END - 0x70E4) + 1)) {
10:49<+glx>and SPECSTR_RESOLUTION_END = SPECSTR_RESOLUTION_START + 0x1F
10:50<+glx>so more than 32 is outside and triggers NOT_REACHED
10:50<LordAro>i see
10:52<Eddi|zuHause>why the magic number 0x70E4?
10:53*LordAro bets reverse engineering reasons
10:53<+glx>don't ask ;)
10:53<@peter1138>That was so much food
10:53<@peter1138>I'm ashamed :/
10:54<Eddi|zuHause>just don't eat anything the rest of the week? i'm sure that works.
10:54<@peter1138>Yeah no
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10:55<Eddi|zuHause>yes, youtube, i definitely want to know about 3 powerpoint hacks for instant improvement
10:57<LordAro>who doesn't?
10:58<@peter1138>:D
10:58<@peter1138>It was the annual cycling club BBQ.
10:59<LordAro>nice
11:02<@peter1138>2 hot dogs and 1 burger, and tons of cheese and salad later... oof, bloated :p
11:03<+glx>and beer ?
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11:03<@peter1138>2 pints of session IPA. Other people were doing plenty of drinking.
11:03<LordAro>one of our club members is a pub landlord
11:03<LordAro>which helps with these things
11:04<+glx>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/compare/master...glx22:fix7672
11:04<+glx>should work
11:05<LordAro>nnyby: ^
11:05<@peter1138>Heh, nice.
11:05<+glx>string handling is so ugly in openttd ;)
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>glx: would it make sense to do (ind+0xWHATEVER)?
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11:12<+glx>hmm could use IsInsideBS() in this case
11:13*andythenorth has found Warcraft 1 in some dosbox thing
11:13<Eddi|zuHause>also, give this poor magic number a name?
11:13<andythenorth>my liege
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>so far i found 2 games that i can't play with this GPU
11:15<andythenorth>oof
11:15<+glx>there are more than 2 games I can't play with my GPU :)
11:15<Eddi|zuHause>i mean, games that somewhat worked before
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>and by "play" i mean "it runs with >5fps"
11:17<+glx>my CPU is also an issue for many UE4 games (know issue with sound and some AMD cpu)
11:17<+glx>*known
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11:23<@peter1138>Bah, SEUS shaders seem to do parallax mapping wrong :/
11:23<@peter1138>And my GPU has an issue with TAA with them too, heh.
11:25<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on issue #7670: Road vehicle pathing cache does not always pick up changes in road network https://git.io/fjyQy
11:26<@peter1138>Well it's not designed to :p
11:27<LordAro>the issue title isn't great, but it's better than the previous :p
11:27<LordAro>feel free to improve it
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12:27<Samu>oh crap, can't even host a server
12:28<Samu>requires firewall, admin rights
12:28<Samu>this sucks
12:29<Samu>can't even test my stuff properly...
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13:07<Beerbelott>Is there a way to share stations between companies?
13:07<LordAro>no
13:07<Beerbelott>I do not see anything about it in https://wiki.openttd.org/Openttd.cfg#.5Bstation.5D
13:08<Beerbelott>Ah OK. Could that be seen as an improvement, on top of explicit configuration to allow it?
13:08<LordAro>there have been a few infrastructure sharing patches over the years, but they all had issues in some way or another
13:08<Beerbelott>Ah OK
13:11<Samu>just play in the same company?
13:15<Samu>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXu0zuOKQ2A&list=RDcXu0zuOKQ2A&start_radio=1 her skin being decoupled, im oversensitive to this crap, feels like I'm watching a horror movie
13:15<LordAro>and you somehow felt it appropriate to link here?
13:15<LordAro>don't do that
13:16<Samu>:( ok
13:17<Samu>because I don't have anybody else to share
13:20<FLHerne>Beerbelott: Note that oil rigs (and newgrf industries with built-in stations) are shared
13:20<FLHerne>So you can transfer cargo between companies, just inconveniently
13:21<FLHerne>Doing so breaks the payment system -- the company doing final delivery gets all the income -- which was one of the main problems with the patches
13:22<FLHerne>(tracking all hops for each cargo-packet would be badly inefficient, and payment on transfer between companies is exploitable for cheating)
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>bah, it's so annoying when you lose a world wonder like 2 turns before finishing it
13:24<FLHerne>Are these like the AoE ones?
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>no, the Civ ones
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>whoever finishes it first, gets the bonus
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13:33<Samu>pay backwards
13:34<Samu>cargo packets would need to store some additional info perhaps
13:40<Samu>how would the income slice for each transfer round be computed
13:49<@peter1138>Isn't that quite the question?
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14:17<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone commented on pull request #7652: Fix #7635: Game crash on exit scenario editor. https://git.io/fjy54
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14:31<LordAro>peter1138: ^ thoughts?
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14:34<Eddi|zuHause>meanwhile: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3WuQxnA7Hg
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15:04<Beerbelott>FLHerne: Yeah I was wondering about those "Transfer" payments... Just remembered the payment is not done until a green income pops up...
15:05<Beerbelott>That's a game mechanic, which makes sharing actually dangerous
15:05<Beerbelott>Not a bad mechanic though
15:05<Beerbelott>but uncontrollable
15:06<FLHerne>Beerbelott: Right
15:06<Beerbelott>About transfer payments... Is value 100% retained for transfered cargo? Or is there some loss?
15:06<Beerbelott>I suppose there must be some decaying
15:07<FLHerne>Beerbelott: Cargo value is based on time-in-transit, not counting waiting at stations
15:07<Beerbelott>Hence no decaying at all?
15:07<FLHerne>Under the 'charts' button there's a set of graphs of "average speed -> payment rate" per cargo
15:07<FLHerne>Times distance
15:08<FLHerne>No
15:08<FLHerne>Although if there's too much cargo at a station, or too long between trains, some can just outright vanish
15:08<Beerbelott>Well transferring from trains to buses hurt because for the final leg speed sinks greatly, but I saw buses delivering for a couple kilo while normally it's usually a couple hundreds :D
15:09<Beerbelott>OK thx for that
15:10<FLHerne>The transfer "payments" are entirely estimated - they're just x% of what /would/ be paid if it was delivered right there
15:10<FLHerne>(x is configurable)
15:11<FLHerne>And the final payment is the real income, minus fictitious transfer payments already shown
15:12<FLHerne>So it's negative if the last vehicle was much slower than average, or the cargo followed a very indirect route
15:15<Samu>cargodist likes to do that
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15:21<Beerbelott>Hmm does that mean using buses on endlinks to distribute cargo round town is a bad habit and the station should rather be separated from the bus network in order to maximize profit?
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15:39<nielsm>Beerbelott: the buses are probably still making more than they cost to run, just the transfer calculation misrepresents it
15:40<Samu>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ11QshWkYM&list=OLAK5uy_kB5qXUVPbQCe9Iy0sEPTtRFo6FvmNiGnI&index=11 - shamanistic chanting or some sorts
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15:55<Samu>I wish random ais avoided repeating the same ai
15:56<Samu>if there are more ais to chose from
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16:29<Beerbelott>nielsm: Sure, but comparing a scenario where trains deliver/take cargo from a seperate station from a bus loop to another scenario where trains connect to one of the buses' station, if cargo transfer loses value, one way of another (buses being much slower than trains, ending payment lowered by fictious transfer money I'll never see, etc), wouldn't the "disconnected" scenario be more profitable?
16:30<Beerbelott>At least the generated cargo would not suffer from the "transfer" mechanism. One of the q° being if the generated cargo volume would then be the same or not
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16:40<andythenorth>lol
16:40<andythenorth>after 3 hours of original Warcraft 1 in dosbox
16:41<andythenorth>OpenTTD looks ridiculously high-res
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16:48<FLHerne>Beerbelott: Yes
16:49<FLHerne>Beerbelott: But, as with everything else, the optimal way to make money (by a huge margin) is with airports in the map corners
16:50<Beerbelott>Ouch, did you just confirm connecting stations actually *lowers* profit?
16:50<FLHerne>Or, failing that, the fastest available train
16:51<FLHerne>There's no remotely financially-optimal game plan that gives road vehicles any consideration at all
16:51<Beerbelott>That I know of
16:52<FLHerne>Yes (if you do have road vehicles, for profit you should have them feed /into/ a higher-speed network, then have no-load orders)
16:52<Beerbelott>But road vehicles allow quick & basic coverage of relatively small town (those for which a single train station won't encompass them)
16:52<Beerbelott>Aha!
16:52<FLHerne>I just disagree that "ouch" really applies, because playing OTTD for financial optimality is no fun anyway
16:53<Beerbelott>Hence, since there won't be loading, that would mean 4 stops for twon growth + a 5th one for train loading
16:53<FLHerne>Something like that, yep
16:53<Beerbelott>FLHerne: Well. I'll leave that to each & everyone appreciation on how to play management transportation games
16:54<FLHerne>(I've done that sort of thing in CityBuilder games)
16:54<Beerbelott>Thx for all that :)
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16:56<Samu>i miss my cats
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17:16<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Nik-mmzd commented on pull request #7086: Change #6173: Update SDL driver to use SDL 2.0 https://git.io/fjyFr
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17:20<Samu>clever bot vs copy paste
17:26<Samu>https://www.cleverbot.com/conv/201907282218/WXCOSIV6VY_There-s-no-remotely-financially-optimal-game-plan-that-gives-road-vehicles-any-consideration-at-all
17:26<Samu>uninteresting...
17:39<Samu>well, cyas
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21:44<Hazzard>Hello, does anyone know if INDUSTRYLIFE_BLACK_HOLE industries ever close? The wiki says the power plant never closes but I'm not sure about the others
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22:36<Eddi|zuHause>i would imagine someone knows that
22:37<Eddi|zuHause>i would assume so that it works the same way as the power plants, but i'm not familiar enough to know it for certain
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---Logclosed Mon Jul 29 00:00:29 2019