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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-08-12

---Logopened Mon Aug 12 00:00:49 2019
02:09-!-andythenorth [~andytheno@cpc87219-aztw31-2-0-cust178.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd
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02:12-!-Samu is "OFTC WebIRC Client" on #openttd
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03:47<Samu>hi
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04:15-!-afdal[m] [~afdalmatr@2001:470:1af1:101::3a10] has joined #openttd
04:15-!-afdal[m] is "@afdal:matrix.org" on #openttd
04:17<afdal[m]>Neat is there an OTFC-Matrix bridge
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05:19<Samu>what is this "matrix" bridge thing
05:19<Samu>just a bunch of bots standing in chatrooms?
05:21<afdal[m]>No I think there's more to it than that
05:22<afdal[m]>somehow all of the Matrix users in here are being converted to discrete individuals to relay back and forth between IRC and Matrix
05:22<afdal[m]>oh wait that is what you said
05:22<afdal[m]>a bot for every Matrix user
05:23<Wolf01>As long as agent Smith doesn't come here...
05:24<afdal[m]>Never send a human to do a machine's job
05:29-!-D-HUND is now known as debdog
05:33<Samu>no offense, but it looks like trash
05:33-!-andythenorth [~andytheno@host81-150-71-244.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
05:34*LordAro assumes Samu has misunderstood something
05:34<Samu>so if someone doesn't log in for years (person died), the bot stays in the chatroom forever?
05:35<LordAro>in theory, but in practice their accounts expire and get turned off
05:35<LordAro>that's all bouncers though, not just matrix
05:36<LordAro>i.e. Yexo is still here, but hasn't been around since...
05:36<LordAro>@seen Yexo
05:36<@DorpsGek>LordAro: Yexo was last seen in #openttd 6 years, 36 weeks, 3 days, 20 hours, 19 minutes, and 32 seconds ago: <Yexo> <NGC3982> The station glitches are CHIPS related. I adressed it to Andy the other day, and it seems like it's b0rked in some way. <- it's still in the issue tracker for CHIPS, but I haven't had time to look at it yet
05:36<Samu>Yexo died?
05:36<LordAro>no
05:36<LordAro>went to work for google, i think someone said
05:37<LordAro>regardless, is no longer here
05:37<Samu>hmm, why won't everybody just rely on 1 bot
05:38<Samu>it's just for logging chat?
05:38<LordAro>because then it's unclear who's talking
05:38<LordAro>for one way logging, sure, that's what Webster does
05:38<LordAro>i have seen 1 "collective" bot used for collective bridges
05:39<LordAro>they're universally trash
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05:43<Samu>yeah, trash, what I said, too
05:53<Samu>https://matrix.org/bridges/
05:57<Samu>sounds like a 7-zip/winrar wanna be, it talks to every chat application and isn't a master of any
05:58<Samu>and also has its own specs
05:59<Samu>just a proliferation of bots
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06:26<Samu>statues finally!
06:27<Samu>4/88, hmm i service many towns already when i build my first statues
06:39<Afdal>whoa
06:39<Afdal>you're right
06:40<Afdal>turned off Riot and my Matrix bot is still in here
06:40<Afdal>what the heck that's garbage
06:41<Afdal>that actually has me seriously concerned about the actual trustworthiness of Riot as a secure and private chat tool
06:42<Afdal>so it just leaves bots in after you turn your own client off to mine chats in your name?
06:42<Wolf01>"Secure and private" lol
06:42<Afdal>oh I get it, that's how it maintains a persistent log you can come back in and read later
06:42<Afdal>that's really prejudice against the way IRC works thoguh
06:46<milek7>eh, what's unusual in that?
06:46<milek7>irc isn't very useful without bouncers
06:50<ntsbmvnk>milek7: agree, this is quite common
06:50<ntsbmvnk>I'm "online" 24/7 in IRC
06:50<ntsbmvnk>but rarely actually here
06:51<Wolf01>Bouncers for what? Read chat history? I don't even read logs :P
06:51<ntsbmvnk>persistence
06:52<ntsbmvnk>If someone messages me here and I'm offline I will miss that entirely
06:52<Wolf01>Then you are using it wrong :P
06:52<ntsbmvnk>there is no wrong way when IRC is a duct tape cryptid
06:53<Wolf01>Servers have message services for that, with bouncers you only achieve that people don't know when you are online or offline
06:53<milek7>there is away flag
06:53<ntsbmvnk>Wolf01: that could be framed as a benefit for the security concerned
06:53<milek7>and nobody uses memoserv or something
06:54<Wolf01>Then don't use irc if you are afraid of security
06:55<ntsbmvnk>Wolf01: oh, good point. I'll just go into the woods and become a hermit.
06:55<Wolf01>Why the fuck people must react like you?
06:56<Wolf01>If you need security there are better services for that, if you just need to chit-chat irc is fine
06:56<ntsbmvnk>I'm not here for security, I'm here for chitchat
06:58<ntsbmvnk>ultimately it's personal preference
06:58<Wolf01>Fine
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08:13<Samu>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_TkwNLJn68 simcity 2000 first music?
08:55<FLHerne>Afdal: perma-connected IRC relays have been a thing for as long as IRC itself
08:55<FLHerne>Afdal: Case in point: I wouldn't have seen any of your messages if I wasn't using one :P
08:57<FLHerne>Wolf01: Because sometimes there are interesting discussions when I'm not here, and I'd like to read them?
09:25<Wolf01>Logs?
09:35<LordAro>not all channels have (public) logs either
09:36<Wolf01>That's a point, but for people like me which only join one channel and it happens to have a public log, a bouncer is nonsense
09:36<Wolf01>I can't really see any benefit
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09:55<ntsbmvnk>relying on a central source for logs isn't always good
09:56<ntsbmvnk>I'd consider the public logs as a backup to your actual logs from being connected
09:56<ntsbmvnk>also, see channels that have no public logging
10:01<Wolf01>Then I'll miss some discussions, or maybe I'll miss nothing. If I'm not there to partecipate I could read what I can get but that's pointless, like gravedigging a discussion of yesterday
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10:30<Eddi|zuHause>i've seen constructive discussions here where each person answered half a day later
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10:41<FLHerne>Wolf01: It's always the same people here, gravedigging yesterday's topic is easy if it wasn't solved then
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11:02<Sacro>\o/
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11:20<Artea>hello :D
11:22<Artea>who needs 10 hours of Diablo 1's Tristam ? :P
11:51<Wolf01>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mqlJejj19E eddi, this is for you
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: thing is, it's using up 12GB of ram for me even without any mods
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12:51<Samu>funding construction of buildings in town, is this a "friendly" attitude towards competitors? or selfish?
12:52-!-Progman [~progman@p4FD66C15.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
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12:52<Samu>having a hard time to decide whether I put this behind the "friendly" setting or not
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12:54<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: i can't say i particularly enjoyed that video
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13:20<Samu>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcqNRaQRUog this is another super tune
13:23<Samu>60334 likes vs 1781 dislikes
13:24<Samu>@calc 60334/(60334+1781)
13:24<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.97132737664
13:25<Samu>how can ppl dislike this? it hurts
13:35<peter1139>Because it's shit?
13:36<LordAro>peter1139: how dare you suggest such an obvious untruth
13:36<peter1139>It definitely hurts, yes.
13:37<LordAro>Samu: if you could limit your music recommendations here, that'd be great
13:37<LordAro>it's not that it's off topic (because we don't really care about that), it's more than no one else cares
13:37<peter1139>It's more that the recommendations are shit ;p
13:37-!-Samu [~oftc-webi@bl7-210-253.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:37<LordAro>that works too
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>"from here on, every line uttered in this channel must be on-topic!!"
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13:59<andythenorth>frosch123 is this deployed / deployable anywhere? o_O https://github.com/frosch123/NewGRFfarm
13:59*andythenorth would like to publish some docs for Horse 2.0.0 release in September
14:19<frosch123>i did not deploy it
14:20<frosch123>one can probably just ssh-upload the docs to bundles :p
14:20<frosch123>locally built
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14:21<andythenorth>I was offered ssh on devzone once...
14:21<andythenorth>I rejected the idea :)
14:22<andythenorth>I can publish on AWS, but it's a hideous url to the bucket, and I don't fancy configuring a domain for it....bundles is nice
14:24<Wolf01><Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i can't say i particularly enjoyed that video <- I laughed my ass off when I saw trucks jumping on the highway
15:03<arikover>andythenorth: #IronHorse 2.0.0 beta 3: When starting on 1860, only the Cheese Bug and a brake van are available.
15:04<andythenorth>oh I wonder why :)
15:06<arikover>andythenorth: Happens with OTTD 1.9.1 as well as master-g27d676e17a
15:06<arikover>andythenorth: Oh. Is that intended?
15:06<andythenorth>repro-ed
15:07<andythenorth>will look into it
15:07<andythenorth>probably just randomisation maybe
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15:11<andythenorth>more stuff starts appearing in 1861
15:13<Wolf01>I think you should add some default vehicles always available up to introduction of "real" vehicles... not that could be "fixed" by adding another grf, but one should know the specs of every grf
15:14<arikover>Isn't there a way to make related rolling stock available as soon as one is available? I seem to recall some work done recently on this topic...
15:15<arikover>Anyway, it is not that important. Just random introduction dates.
15:15<arikover>Other than that, really nice work.
15:16<andythenorth>not sure how random works at game start
15:16-!-Afdal [~Afdal@098-127-081-062.res.spectrum.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>iirc there's no random within the first 2 years
15:19<andythenorth>sounds familiar
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15:44<andythenorth>should I try and fix it?
15:44<andythenorth>or let it be?
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16:06<arikover>The problem is probably not worth fixing yet... Maybe after Iron Mustang? ;)
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>what do you mean with "fixing"? just set the first generation of wagons to the same date as the first engine
16:14<arikover>Or that.
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16:14<Samu>andythenorth: do u have a newgrf that lets me disable mail trucks?
16:15<andythenorth>not afaik
16:15<Samu>:(
16:17<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: could work, would need some special casing
16:17<andythenorth>but I already detect last generation in tech tree, prevent expiry
16:17<andythenorth>could detect first generation too
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16:20-!-Heiki is "Heikki Piirainen" on #debian-meeting #debian-offtopic #openttd #debian-next #debian
16:21<andythenorth>ok it's on my list for a 2.1
16:21<andythenorth>I don't want to risk adding new bugs for 2.0 now
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>i have no clue what magic goes into your decisions for introduction dates
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>there's probably an easy solution...
16:31<andythenorth>yes
16:31<andythenorth>well and no also
16:31<andythenorth>I was going to do 'if gen 1, force all dates to 1860-01-01'
16:32<andythenorth>but that breaks games started before 1860
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16:41<Eddi|zuHause>you're gonna have to set a minimum date, put it into the grf description, blame starting earlier than that on the player
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>intro date should probably be a year or two before this minimum date, to prevent starting with too low reliability
16:42*andythenorth looks if game start date is in global newgrf vars
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>why would that be needed?
16:43<andythenorth>I could conditionally handle the intro dates
16:43<andythenorth>I shouldn't
16:43<andythenorth>but I could
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like the wrong solution
16:51<Wolf01><Eddi|zuHause> you're gonna have to set a minimum date, put it into the grf description, blame starting earlier than that on the player <- or put a horse cart multicargo introduced in year 1
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>keep in mind there will be players that want to start in like 1800 with horse carts and ships that want to play until trains become available
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16:57<andythenorth>yup
17:01<Samu>i want to "play" without mail trucks
17:02<Samu>want the AIs to
17:12<andythenorth>make a grf
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17:26<Samu>interesting orders railwai uses
17:27<Samu>conditional orders, go back to the station and load at least 1% cargo
17:28<Samu>loads something instead of travelling empty
17:28<Samu>it also improves rating
17:28<Samu>kinda abusive, but smart
17:31<Samu>i wish not to resort to these tactics though
17:32<Samu>gonna try implement some way to detect wether towns are being serviced already by competitors
17:33<Samu>I kinda have it already, the "is friendly" option
17:35<Samu>doesn't build stations near competitors stations coverage area, but it still tries to service the town, which might be a bad idea
17:35<Samu>especially vs ais that use full load
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18:20<Samu>https://imgur.com/0CSglgz - the unexpected challenger
18:20<Samu>Convoy -- trashing the competition
18:21<Samu>thrashing*
18:22<Samu>300 buses in 8 years, on the most difficult tileset
18:22<Samu>and against other ais
18:22<Samu>only buses
18:22<Samu>for everyone
18:22<Samu>i'm surprised
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---Logclosed Tue Aug 13 00:00:50 2019