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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-08-13

---Logopened Tue Aug 13 00:00:50 2019
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03:07<andythenorth>moin
03:37<argoneus>moin
03:37<argoneus>how are you doing?
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04:57<Wolf01>Hmmm... need to go full Rube Goldberg for the next lego creation
06:31<Samu>eh... the more logic i put in the ai, the worse it becomes... :(
06:33<Samu>I don't understand how Convoy can be so successful
06:33<Samu>it's even buggy
06:33<Wolf01>KISS
06:33<Samu>and still does obliterate everyone
06:36<Samu>and the original LuDiAI performing mine does leave a sour taste
06:36<Samu>better than mine*
06:43<@planetmaker>Is there someone here who can and is willing to actually handle the organization of a public event which is either a gaming and/or AI challange? Time horizon 3-4 months
06:43<@planetmaker>Tasks are especially in making it known within the community and dealing with all kinds of stuff related to organization. We would have a sponsor with prices for such event...
06:51<Samu>I rather say no
06:53<Samu>my immediate future is uncertain, I rather not commit to anything
06:56<Wolf01>I'm a bit busy with lego events and job, which don't seem to mix well too
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07:02<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Wuzzy2 opened issue #7691: Infinite money exploit in multiplayer using shares and sending money back and forth https://git.io/fj5zX
07:20<Wolf01>Lol, one of the possible fixes is to remove the feature
07:25<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #7691: Infinite money exploit in multiplayer using shares and sending money back and forth https://git.io/fj5gt
07:43<andythenorth>7691 might look like a bug
07:43<andythenorth>but it's realistic
07:43<Wolf01>The problem is that you shouldn't be able to buy shares for $0
07:44<Samu>disable giving money to companies, problem solved!
07:44<andythenorth>but that's what they're worth at that point
07:45<andythenorth>people really struggle to believe that money is simply invented
07:45<andythenorth>but the Bank of England have a primer on it https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/knowledgebank/how-is-money-created
07:46<Samu>it's not an exploit, it's a server with the setting left enabled
07:46<andythenorth>by lending money, I create money
07:50<Wolf01>Yes, but there is a thing to consider on that: the FakeCorp is... fake, doing this trick in RL will get you a fine or even worse
07:51<Samu>i thought it was up to newgrfs to decide lending money to companies
07:51<Samu>why is it even a setting
07:51<Samu>gamescripts*
07:53<@planetmaker>it is a general setting which also works in vanilla OpenTTD
07:53<@planetmaker>but you can disable it... so that the exploit mentioned doesn't work
07:53<@planetmaker>as such, my personal view is: yes, it's an exploit. But disable the setting and problem solved
07:54<Wolf01>Also, why selling shares generates money? From where? Who pays?
07:56<@planetmaker>well... :)
07:57<@planetmaker>if you can control two companies, you can have one buy shares of the other. Then transfer all your money to the other, then sell shares. Transfer money back. Rinse and repeat
07:57<Wolf01>Yes, that's the exploit mentioned
07:58<Wolf01>But if B value = 0 and I purchase shares at $0, then give B $10k and sell the shares (getting back $7k5) why B still have $10k?
08:09<Samu>convoy has a trick, I knew there was something fishy there
08:10<Samu>it doesn't start all vehicles at once, it builds the whole set of vehicles, but then starts one by one, each separated by a few days
08:11<Wolf01>That's the way I play too
08:11<Samu>this keeps cargo ratings in stations relatively higher than the competitors for longer
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08:13<@planetmaker>just spam enough vehicles that some vehicle is constantly loading. Then you don't need to worry about when to release vehicles
08:16<LordAro>i wouldn't be opposed to just removing the "feature" entirely
08:16<andythenorth>:D
08:17<Samu>it amazes me how this "trick" keeps ratings always above 65%
08:17<andythenorth>I am going to experiment with lunch
08:17<Samu>no need for full load
08:17<Samu>no need for station spreading
08:18<Samu>no statues, no advertising campaigns
08:21<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7685: Codechange: math functions - use cpp-style casts https://git.io/fj520
08:21<Samu>management might be difficult if I try to implement something similar on my AI
08:22<Samu>i'd have to make pathfinding timers much much shorter
08:24<Samu>or risk having buses waiting for months stopped in depots
08:25<Samu>while pathfinding
08:26<@planetmaker>LordAro, I thought of you organizing this aforementioned community event :)
08:26<@planetmaker>you have all the qualifications for that, including knowledge on AI programming
08:26<Eddi|zuHause><Wolf01> Also, why selling shares generates money? From where? Who pays? <-- maybe ask greece, ireland, iceland?
08:27<@planetmaker>on? of? about? over? prepositions suck :|
08:29<LordAro>planetmaker: oho
08:29<@planetmaker>I'm dead serious. I consider you the most qualified person in the whole community
08:30<@planetmaker>:)
08:30<@planetmaker>And I think this challenge or event is a good chance for some outreach and excitement
08:31<@planetmaker>details for sure can be discussed with the sponsor
08:33<Samu>AroAI bankrupts quite early
08:33<LordAro>i've not really done anything with AIs since 2012
08:33<Samu>but :p
08:33<LordAro>admittedly it's not changed much, but still
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08:34<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #7691: Infinite money exploit in multiplayer using shares and sending money back and forth https://git.io/fj526
08:34<@planetmaker>it's not like you're required to write an AI. Just to ... generally know what to look for. Give people pointers. Make them aware of the event / competition. Do some outreach / community work so people know about it and get excited :D
08:35<@planetmaker>You know still well enough easily setup a somewhat automated AI test...
08:35<LordAro>the former i can do
08:35<LordAro>the latter... unknown :p
08:35<@planetmaker>you can :P
08:36<@planetmaker>And point is... you can very well outsource parts, too. Activate people from reddit, from other servers to participate. Perceive it as an competition between server owner communities... just as an idea :)
08:36*andythenorth experiments with lunch
08:37*planetmaker experimented earlier with goulash... successfully :P
08:38<Eddi|zuHause>unfortunately i don't have any gulasch nearby
08:38<@planetmaker>@LordAro, one key probably is to get many people involved, to spread the burdon
08:38<@planetmaker>burden
08:40<@planetmaker>well... not burden. But delegating some work or tasks :)
08:40<Eddi|zuHause>if you talk AI competitions, there's a name that's haunting me in my dreams... don't make me say it...
08:41<Sacro>pbimttd?
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>also, is that just me or is http://webster.openttdcoop.org/?channel=openttd&date=1565654400 not working? (other dates work)
08:44<LordAro>there are occasional dates that don't work for some reason
08:44<LordAro>planetmaker: well, i'll have to have a think
08:47<@planetmaker>@Eddi|zuHause, yes... for some reason I don't know either some days don't work...
08:49<@planetmaker>@LordAro, please do. Don't be intimidated. It's very likely a joyful thing (from my wwottdgd experiences etc)
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i'm not a webdev, but that's probably the point where i'd skim some server logs for script errors
08:49<LordAro>^
08:57<@planetmaker>yes...
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09:11<nnyby>openttd should have a stand at FOSDEM, haha https://fosdem.org/2020/news/2019-08-13-call-for-participation/
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09:55<Samu>GetCargoProduction is very misleading
09:55<Samu>I see more and more AIs checking for GetCargoAcceptance instead
09:56<Samu>that's how they build near the big houses
09:57<Samu>my AI checks for CargoProduction, and it merely counts the number of houses with population
09:57<Samu>with a value of 1
09:57<Samu>for each
10:04<Samu>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/27d676e17a85f611ed0fe58735df1bc250182af2/src/town_cmd.cpp#L654
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10:07<Samu>yeah... CargoAcceptance, computes both what cargo type it accepts and the amount
10:07<Samu>big houses usually also produce more passengers, but this shouldn't be the rule
10:08<Samu>I should use GetCargoProduction to compute production, not GetCargoAcceptance
10:08<Samu>plz fix
10:08<Samu>big houses ~ big acceptance
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10:13<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nikolas commented on pull request #7684: Fix: saving crash.sav when disconnected from network game https://git.io/fj5Vu
10:13<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nikolas closed pull request #7684: Fix: saving crash.sav when disconnected from network game https://git.io/fjQtu
10:25<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7691: Infinite money exploit in multiplayer using shares and sending money back and forth https://git.io/fj5VS
10:26<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nikolas commented on pull request #7685: Codechange: math functions - use cpp-style casts https://git.io/fj5V9
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10:55<Samu>should I report this as an issue?
10:55<Samu>seems to only bother me
10:57<nielsm>well, human players don't have any direct way of getting a building population or mail generation rate either
10:57<nielsm>they can just guess whether the building generates something
10:58<nielsm>otoh an AI can't look at the visual size of a building and estimate whether it's a small or large one
10:59<nielsm>but also, town buildings can implement a cargo generation callback which makes it impossible to know how much it will actually generate anyway
11:04<Samu>hmm
11:07<Samu>i was looking for it to return something like house population
11:09<Samu>a fraction of it, perhaps
11:14<nielsm>pop divided by 32, rounded up, would also get you a value 1-8
11:23<Samu>but api doesn't have access to hs->population
11:24<Samu>oh, u mean the whole town
11:28<Samu>GetPopulation and GetHouseCount
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11:42<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7690: Fix: RemoveAirport function now returns with 'Aircraft in the way' error message as it should be. https://git.io/fj5rn
11:42<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7690: Fix: RemoveAirport function now returns with 'Aircraft in the way' error message as it should be. https://git.io/fj7Zo
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12:25<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened issue #7692: Industry stations could be made easier to click https://git.io/fj5oq
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15:27<andythenorth>well
15:30<Wolf01>Get the water
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15:48<Samu>just implemented the convoy trick on my AI
15:49<Samu>it's rushed
15:50<Samu>but the results so far are too impressive
15:52<Samu>already leads profits
15:52<Samu>lol
15:52<Samu>i'm really impressed
16:07<acklen>where's this SuperSamuAI?
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16:12<Samu>it's LuDiAI AfterFix
16:14<Samu>RailwAI does have a trick of his own too
16:14<Samu>but his strategy is building short routes to deliver as much cargo as possible
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16:18<Samu>profits are slightly decreasing over time
16:18<Samu>how long can I hold leading profits... hmm
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16:21<Samu>eh, I just fell
16:21<Samu>convoy and railwai ahead now
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16:23<Samu>oh, right, the 2-year phase is over
16:23<Samu>im already selling negative profit vehicles
16:24<Samu>maybe, just maybe that will help improve it
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16:30<TrueBrain>owh boy, we have a serious problem .. they recorded info@openttd.org watching porn .... and now we have to pay 2000 euro ... oh-oh .... who watched porn via info@openttd.org?!
16:31<frosch123>it was sent to all mails
16:31<frosch123>but it's in dutch, so it wasn't me :p
16:31<TrueBrain>:D
16:32<LordAro>lolz
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16:37<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like a scam
16:37<andythenorth>TrueBrain: it was me
16:37<+glx>TrueBrain: mine is in their list too
16:42<andythenorth>send them 4000 euro
16:48<Samu>the first 6 years https://imgur.com/FmKTTOh
16:48<Samu>i'm the blue line
16:53<Samu>the original LuDiAI is the white line
16:53<Samu>i'm finally doing better than the original
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17:27<Eddi|zuHause>so... someone gave me a monitor he wanted to get rid of, because "it was too yellow"...
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>i got a little bit close to matching the colours to my normal monitor, but not quite there...
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>plus i got a "random blank screen" issue that people seem to describe here https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg/+bug/349943
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17:50<peter1139>hi
17:52<andythenorth>hi
17:52<andythenorth>lunch?
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18:17<Samu>convoy still king
18:21<Samu>the next 6 years https://imgur.com/j9dhUB2
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18:29<Eddi|zuHause>a good midnight lunch?
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19:08<FLHerne>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8OBKys4t3s
19:09<FLHerne>I don't remember ever hearing Chris Sawyer before, let alone playing proto-TT
19:24-!-mode/#openttd [+v DorpsGek] by ChanServ
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19:27<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Wuzzy2 opened issue #7693: Some nonsensical news texts when industry production changes https://git.io/fj5ye
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19:49<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Wuzzy2 opened issue #7694: Too much news spam on small economy changes https://git.io/fj5yn
20:14<Eddi|zuHause>i think i saw a video about this game before (or maybe it was a blog post with screenshots?) but i don't remember anything about voiceover
20:40<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] dorobouNeko commented on pull request #7573: Fix #7561: Remove assumption between power and cost https://git.io/fj5yM
21:02<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Wuzzy2 opened issue #7695: Loading savegame from a mulitplayer game might assing you to the wrong company https://git.io/fj5yQ
21:42<DorpsGek_II>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #7695: Loading savegame from a mulitplayer game might assing you to the wrong company https://git.io/fj5Sq
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---Logclosed Wed Aug 14 00:00:52 2019