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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-08-20

---Logopened Tue Aug 20 00:00:01 2019
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01:26-!-nielsm is "Niels Martin Hansen" on #openttd
01:43<Eddi|zuHause>always these IRC Noobs who don't have the patience to wait 6 hours for a reply
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01:59<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: they did better than most
02:00<LordAro>just asked at the wrong time
02:00<LordAro>not sure what could be going wrong though, i don't think i've ever used make install
02:01<LordAro>probably a PATH issue
02:01<Eddi|zuHause>that was my first thought, too
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08:23-!-Samu is "OFTC WebIRC Client" on #openttd
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08:55<scuddles>feels NARS man
09:02<Wolf01>It's me or it looks like a gif?
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09:39<peter1139>scuddles :D
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09:41-!-nielsm is "Niels Martin Hansen" on #openttd
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10:44<Samu>I don't understand. Now that the AI is more flexible with road pathfinder/management, it's performing worse.. :(
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10:51<Eddi|zuHause>doesn't look like a terribly efficient track layout
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10:56<LordAro>is it
10:56<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: i think that's just opengfx's quality
10:56<andythenorth_>Lunch or coffee?
10:56<Eddi|zuHause>if coffee includes cake, i'm in
10:57<andythenorth_>Can anyone build Iron Horse and publish the docs?
10:57<andythenorth_>I am away from my laptop
10:58<andythenorth_>I am using a device that probably can’t open zips :p
10:59<andythenorth_>Wonder if it can run python? o_O
11:01<andythenorth_>Hmm there are apps that use a remote server to compile the python :p
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11:31<Eddi|zuHause>(not sure i want to know what he's doing)
11:44-!-andythenorth_ [] has joined #openttd
11:44-!-andythenorth_ is "andythenorth_" on #openttd
11:45<andythenorth_>Trains are complicated :p
11:46<andythenorth_>4 axle diesels vs 6 axles reasons complex
11:46<FLHerne>andythenorth_: What's your device? Termux gives you a pretty complete Linux userspace on Android things
11:46<andythenorth_>iPad, everything is sandboxed
11:46<andythenorth_>But there’s some equivalent of Termux
11:47<FLHerne>There's a reason I didn't get an iPhone :P
11:48<FLHerne>(well, more that I object to paying Apple to write software for my own device)
11:48<FLHerne>But having a Linux kernel is certainly helpful
11:49*andythenorth_ designing North American Horse
11:49<FLHerne>Now I have a complete cmake, clang, Python, blah toolchain in my pocket which is always fun
11:49<andythenorth_>US trains are unhelpful for game design
11:50<andythenorth_>UK trains have mostly tended to faster, stronger, higher capacity per unit
11:50<andythenorth_>Very game suitable
11:51<FLHerne>Whereas the US has mostly gone backward since 1970?
11:52<andythenorth_>US passenger trains were anecdotally hitting 120mph in the 1930s
11:52<andythenorth_>and have got slower since
11:53<andythenorth_>Steam engines hit 5000hp per unit in the 1930s, large diesels are 3000-4000hp
11:53<andythenorth_>fast freight was 80mph, now restricted to 60 in most places
11:54<arikover>Damn trucks!
11:54<andythenorth_>AC motors have replaced DC on large diesels, and can tolerate more low speed maximum power operation
11:55<andythenorth_>So freightbtrains have fewer engines and less hp-per-ton
11:55<andythenorth_>They just go on their knees and crawl up hills slowly
11:56<andythenorth_>Very inconvenient for game design in OpenTTD meta
11:56<FLHerne>andythenorth_: "large diesels are 3000-4000hp" is mostly because they can multi easily?
11:56<andythenorth_>Yes, completely
11:57<FLHerne>There was one generation of huge multi-prime-mover diesels and turbines that were meant to replace large steam locos 1:1
11:57*andythenorth_ assumes the OpenTTD meta id
11:57<FLHerne>And then everyone realised that was the wrong approach
11:57<andythenorth_>...meta is “moar, faster, in fewer tiles”
11:58<arikover>andythenorth_: Plus in OTTD North America, things don't have to be 100% like in real world North America...
11:58<FLHerne>Eh, at least double-stack containers are a plus
11:58<andythenorth_>Yes to both
11:58<FLHerne>(but you might need to invent non-clipping tunnels, finally)
12:02<andythenorth_>Are there any other metas besides “moar”? :p
12:02<andythenorth_>“Model trains” ?
12:04<FLHerne>Although in that case, "moar" helps mitigate the ludicrous effects of town growth
12:04<FLHerne>(might be easier now it's non-quadratic)
12:04<andythenorth_>Is “coop” a meta?
12:04<andythenorth_>SRNW and all that jazz
12:04<FLHerne>Not one worth caring about as a set designer, probably?
12:06<FLHerne>Appearance doesn't matter, all the trains are standardized and upgrading them would break the magic
12:06<andythenorth_>Is “stability” a valid meta? :p
12:07<andythenorth_>After 1930 net performance is the same, but train units change stats and appearance
12:08<FLHerne>Traffic density rises as you connect more stuff and grow towns/industries
12:09<FLHerne>With increasing capacity, you can hope to make incremental improvements to the core network
12:09<andythenorth_>So one thing about ~1930s
12:10<FLHerne>A "stable" set would just force building effectively point-to-point connections for every new route, which would be boring
12:10<andythenorth_>There is big difference between anecdotes of high speed, and actual speeed
12:10<FLHerne>Trying to grow an existing network without breaking the whole thing is a lot more fun than building one in the first place
12:11<andythenorth_>Averages are much lower than the rare headline grabbing speeds
12:11<andythenorth_>And not all engines were huge 5000hp monsters
12:11<andythenorth_>Many were older and smaller
12:13<andythenorth_>US railroads are remarkably aggressive with engine replacement though, many lasted 10-15 years, then worn out or superceded
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12:13*andythenorth_ wonders about compressed generations, 20 years not 3p
12:14<andythenorth_>30 *
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12:18<andythenorth_>More drawing eh :p
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12:34<Wolf01>Sooooo we are again governless
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12:44<acklen>join the club!
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12:46<arikover>I think the base strings in French should be updated. How do I do that ? Being registered as NewGRF translator doesn't help, right ? Is there something similar for base strings, or should I send a pull request on Github ?
12:49<Samu>I still don't understand how can convoy be so strong
12:49<Samu>there's more than just that trick
12:49<arikover>nielsm: Thank you !
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12:56<arikover>nielsm: Ok, I'm already registered here apparently, but have no access to the "OpenTTD trunk" project.
12:57<nielsm>there's some email you need to write to ask permission
12:57<nielsm> I think
12:58<Samu>i'm bad at variable names
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13:01<Samu>last_managed_array should be route
13:01<Samu>the other..
13:02<Samu>I have 9 "managers"
13:03<Samu>"managing route " + i + ". expandStations"
13:03<Samu>managing route " + i + ". addremoveVehicleToRoute
13:04<Samu>"managing route " + i + ". updateEngine" etc...
13:04<Samu>i is the route
13:04<Samu>expandStations, addremoveVehicleToRoute, etc.. are the managing portion
13:05<Samu>and i manage both i and that
13:05<Samu>i dunno what to call those
13:06<Samu>last_managed_management :p
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13:13<arikover>nielsm: Thank you again!
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13:44-!-glx is "Loïc GUILLOUX" on +#openttd
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14:57<Samu>I need advice, my AI underperforms before 1965, when Hereford Leopard Bus becomes available
14:57<Samu>MPS Regal Bus
14:58<Samu>it's a slow bus, initial towns are also smaller
14:59<Samu>some don't even grow
15:00<Samu>it's hard to maintain a good station rating with this bus, unless i make the routes very short
15:02<Samu>then i watch convoy, and I wonder... what did he do better that I didn't already?
15:02<Samu>he obliterates everyone
15:02<Samu>time and time again
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15:03<Samu>early game, convoy reigns supreme
15:03<Samu>he's the master of MPS Regal Bus
15:04<Samu>he manages to get 500 buses before Hereford Leopard Bus, against 14 other AIs in sub tropic or sub-arctic
15:05<+glx>passenger only or does it also moves coal ?
15:05<Samu>passengers only, I limited all AIs to passengers
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15:06<Samu>before I implemented the convoy trick of delaying the start of buses, my AI was really trash
15:06<Samu>convoy must have some other tricks
15:07<Samu>and I can't see what
15:07<+glx>I guess it does not only delay, but maybe also manage the timetable
15:09<Samu>hmm i think there's no timetable support for AIs
15:12<Samu>i've also disabled distant join stations, to make them all play without station spreading tricks
15:13<Samu>play as clean as possible
15:18<Samu>must check openttd code
15:18<Samu>find out the exact timing between buses
15:28<Samu>3 for max rating
15:28<Samu>3 days
15:28<Samu>but i can't put a bus every 3 days...
15:29<Samu>at least on towns that dont produce decent quantities of passengers, and against that many AIs
15:30<Samu>well, 3 days, have to experiment
15:48<Samu>estimate buses needed, convoy got 14 on a route of distance 119
15:50<Samu>optimal vehicle count, ludiai afterfix got 13 on a route with distance 95
15:51<Samu>@calc 119/14
15:51<@DorpsGek>Samu: 8.5
15:51<Samu>@calc 95/13
15:51<@DorpsGek>Samu: 7.30769230769
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16:38<Samu>convoy uses bus stops, i use drivethroughs or bus stops, depending on what's most suitable
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16:39<Samu>but most of the time it's drivethrough
16:41<andythenorth_>So 10/8 vehicles then? o_O
16:41<Samu>the advantage of bus stops is that it creates a "queue" of buses waiting for each other to enter the station, it's maintaining the rating higher for longer
16:42<andythenorth_>With no newgrf tricks??
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16:43<Samu>no newgrfs here
16:45<Samu>hmm my AI stops adding buses after what it thinks it's the max route cap
16:45<Samu>it's underestimating :(
16:46<Samu>I stopped at 18, Convoy already has 25+ buses on their routes
16:47<Samu>that bus stop "trick", if you may call it
16:48<Samu>also increases the chances that buses have something to load
16:48<Samu>even if just 1 passenger
16:50<Samu>okay, so 2 problems after all
16:51<Samu>bad route cap estimate, and bus stops being better than drivethrough for cargo rating
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16:53<Samu>i dont feel like doing changes to drivethrough/busstop code. it's already complex
16:53<Samu>but i can tweak the esimator a bit
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16:55<andythenorth_>Silly disconnects, I give up : p
17:09<Samu>perhaps now I'm overestimating... we'll see
17:09<Samu>from 13 to 23
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17:10<Samu>fast forward is so slow
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18:06-!-nielsm is "Niels Martin Hansen" on #openttd
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---Logclosed Wed Aug 21 00:00:02 2019