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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-09-01

---Logopened Sun Sep 01 00:00:54 2019
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02:40<AquaFiX>in regards to Running soap with supybot i have getting issues regarding Error: No module named enums and Error: cannot import name IntFlag, I have installed libottdadmin2, and OFS correctlys, libottdadmin2 shows in pip freeze i am not sure the issue. Python -V Python 2.7.13
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02:50<nielsm>that's probably because the enum module was introduced in python 3.4
02:50<nielsm>IntFlag is even from python 3.6
02:53<AquaFiX>so force to 3.6.4 and should resolve issues.
02:54<nielsm>yes
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04:30<andythenorth_>So how about a new industry cb, “town wants to grow”
04:30<andythenorth_>Results: allow | disallow | neutral
04:30<andythenorth_>??
04:31<nielsm>maybe town growth effect -16 to +16
04:31*andythenorth_ continues quest to improve town cargos like building materials, vehicles etc
04:32*andythenorth_ going on a plane ride now, but the idea is interesting
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07:37<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] uvealonso commented on pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings https://git.io/fjpZE
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07:46<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] uvealonso updated pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings https://git.io/fjpZw
07:50<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] uvealonso commented on pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings https://git.io/fjpZK
07:50<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] uvealonso commented on pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings https://git.io/fjpZi
08:01<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings https://git.io/fjpZ9
08:01<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings https://git.io/fjpZH
08:01<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc merged pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings https://git.io/fjpZw
08:01<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc closed issue #7704: Crash on MacOS when server has invalid UTF8 name string https://git.io/fjpZQ
08:02<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings https://git.io/fjpZ7
08:05<nielsm>so, 1.9.3 or begin preparing 1.10 ?
08:06<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] uvealonso commented on pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings https://git.io/fjpZb
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08:49<AquaFiX>Ok if anyone has any experience with SOAP for supybot/Limnoria
08:49<AquaFiX>i am interested to talk to you
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08:58<Eddi|zuHause>what happened to "we might go for a more frequent release schedule"?
08:59<frosch123>maybe there is a dependency on cets
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09:05<Eddi|zuHause>that would have been a risky tactical decision
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09:39<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7651: Too many statues/fountains are built in town centers. https://git.io/fjXfH
09:40<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh closed issue #7659: Railway construction menu disappears https://git.io/fj1Q3
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09:42<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh closed issue #7645: Bug? Train Depots not working as expected https://git.io/fjP8d
09:42<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7645: Bug? Train Depots not working as expected https://git.io/fjP8d
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09:46<nielsm>I'm going through the issues and adding any I think ought to be fixed before 1.10 to the milestone
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09:55<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7624: Changing rolling stock reverts on next visit to depot https://git.io/fj2MW
09:57<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7525: Autorenew vehicle option to Basic settings https://git.io/fjOmN
09:59<Samu>autorenew defaulted to on?
09:59<Samu>that will break my AI at least
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10:00<Samu>maybe others
10:00<nielsm>who said autorenew should default to on?
10:01<+glx>and AI can change the setting anyway
10:02<Samu>autorenew / autoreplace should be able to maintain vehicle IDs
10:03<+glx>Samu: AICompany::SetAutoRenewStatus(false); in your AI init should be enough
10:03<Samu>oki
10:03<+glx>especially if you explicitely don't want it
10:03<+glx>never trust default settings of the user ;)
10:06<+glx>and you can also check GetAutoRenewStatus() before
10:07<+glx>anyway autorenew/autoreplace can't maintain vehicle IDs
10:07<+glx>as a new vehicle always get a new ID
10:13<Samu>unable to keep track of vehicleIDs is the biggest threat during vehicle management
10:16<+glx>maybe a new AIEvent can be added
10:20<nielsm>the scourge of having MS symbol servers enabled in visual studio...
10:20<nielsm>taking forever to start a debugging session after windows update
10:21<+glx>luckily it's cached
10:21<nielsm>yeah
10:21<nielsm>it's just that updates tend to touch way too many files in minor ways
10:21<nielsm>meaning 90% of the dlls need to have their symbols re-downloaded
10:21<+glx>hmm yeah my next debug session will be a pain, I just upgraded to 1903 from 1803
10:22<Samu>create new vehicle, move statistics or infos from old vehicle to new vehicle, then delete old vehicle, create another new vehicle, move statistics from the new vehicle to the another new vehicle
10:22<Samu>will it get the same id?
10:22<+glx>no
10:22<+glx>a new vehicle is new, so new ID
10:22<nielsm>IDs get reused don't they?
10:22<Samu>yes
10:23<nielsm>it's not like slots in the vehicle array are left empty forever
10:23<nielsm>(that would be a memory leak)
10:23<+glx>but as I said, a new AIEvent can help
10:23<nielsm>the new vehicle _might_ get the ID of the deleted one
10:23<nielsm>but another company might have built a vehicle in the meantime
10:23<nielsm>or there might be a different ID free earlier in the list
10:24*glx goes looking in the code
10:25<frosch123>the new vehicle never gets the same id
10:25<frosch123>the new vehicle is created before the old one is deleted
10:26<nielsm>yes
10:26<nielsm>the question is if you then create another new vehicle after deleting the replaced one, will the second new vehicle get the ID of the replaced one
10:26<nielsm>and the answer is "maybe, in some cases"
10:26<frosch123>ok, i should have guessed that the question is even more arcane :)
10:28<Samu>I still remember my AI sending aircraft to bus stations
10:29<Samu>thx to autorenew
10:30<Samu>or that randomly lost aircraft with no orders for no reason whatsoever
10:31<nielsm>slightly more sensible, and yet not... https://0x0.st/z4EW.jpg
10:32<+glx>maybe always use 3 lines per entry
10:33<+glx>name\ncompany\nqualification
10:34<nielsm>ugh okay yeah I tried sprinkling ScaleGUITrad all over the code and the results just don't get good
10:34<nielsm>I'll probably have to rework the layout to depend on actual font sizes and such
10:35<nielsm>instead of magical numbers
10:36<nielsm>https://0x0.st/z4Et.jpg broken in a different way!
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10:37<nielsm>or maybe...
10:37<nielsm>https://0x0.st/z4Ew.jpg yeah this looks (mostly) right
10:37<nielsm>the 5 overlapping the border $ is a shame
10:38<nielsm>https://0x0.st/z4Ex.png it's the same in 1x gui and font scale
10:38<nielsm>https://0x0.st/z4E3.png wrong in 1x gui with 2x font
10:39<nielsm>https://0x0.st/z4EY.jpg and dumb in 2x gui with 1x font
10:40<nielsm>is there a way to get the background image drawn in a custom scale not dependent on the user GUI scale...
10:41<nielsm>would be nice if it could scale it to fit screen (nearest integer scale factor smaller than actual resolution)
10:41<nielsm>and then dynamically position the text based on font size
10:42<nielsm>hm okay DrawSprite and GetSpriteSize do take a zoom parameter
10:42<nielsm>so could do some magic with that
10:42<frosch123>the scaling is not done while drawing
10:42<frosch123>all images are prescaled when loading the sprites and then stored scaled
10:43<frosch123>anyway, whenever the highscore or the win screen is broken, i wonder whether to delete them :p
10:45<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened pull request #7714: Fix #7702: Scaling for highscore screen https://git.io/fjpc1
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11:08<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] j-pet updated pull request #7699: Fix: Possible double path separator in FiosMakeFilename https://git.io/fjddy
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11:34<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] j-pet commented on pull request #7699: Fix: Possible double path separator in FiosMakeFilename https://git.io/fjpCE
11:38<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] j-pet commented on pull request #7699: Fix: Possible double path separator in FiosMakeFilename https://git.io/fjpCo
11:50<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] j-pet commented on pull request #7699: Fix: Possible double path separator in FiosMakeFilename https://git.io/fjpCh
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12:41<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #7715: Fix b870596: forgotten squirrel_export run https://git.io/fjpWw
12:47<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh approved pull request #7715: Fix b870596: forgotten squirrel_export run https://git.io/fjpWP
12:54<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #7715: Fix b870596: forgotten squirrel_export run https://git.io/fjpWw
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13:10<andythenorth>hurrah
13:10<andythenorth>holidays are nice, but so is proper internet
13:10<andythenorth>and a proper irc cliet
13:10<andythenorth>or client
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13:14<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #7716: Add: [Script] ScriptEventVehicleAutoReplaced. https://git.io/fjplU
13:15<+glx>it's totally not tested
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13:18<Samu>uhm... hardly useful
13:18<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7716: Add: [Script] ScriptEventVehicleAutoReplaced. https://git.io/fjplq
13:19<+glx>Samu: why ?
13:19<nielsm>Samu what else could it be? It's an event that indicates that a vehicle has been automatically replaced with a new one, and gives you the old and new ID
13:20<nielsm>it's exactly what's necessary to keep track of vehicles internally by a script
13:20<Samu>the problem is difficult to describe
13:20<nielsm>then you are not understanding it
13:21<Samu>i am iterating vehicleids in a for loop, doing the usual management stuff, iterating over a list of vehicles
13:22<Samu>suddenly, one of the vehicles in that list is autorenewed, while im still executing the for loop
13:22<Samu>when the for loop iterates the old vehicle id, it may already belong to another vehicle
13:22<Samu>it could be an aircraft
13:23<Samu>while the list was supposedly only road vehicles
13:23<nielsm>oh so the entire structure of your code is bad
13:23<nielsm>it sticks inside long operations without handling events
13:24<Wormnest_>iirc it´s not guaranteed that you always receive all events, which means you can´t count on the event to update your vehicle ids
13:24<nielsm>what Windows would call "application is not responding" (and fade out the entire application window)
13:24<nielsm>seriously, events can be lost? is there a length limit on the queue?
13:24<nielsm>(if then, the answer is still "process events more often")
13:25<Wormnest_>I might remember it wrong, haven´t looked into it in a long time
13:25<Samu>i'd propose a vehicle list function
13:26<Samu>something that could re-route to the correct vehicle
13:26<Samu>when it's updated
13:26<+glx>that's up to the AI writer
13:26<Samu>as long as that list exists
13:27<Samu>something that auto corrects veh ids in vehicle lists
13:28<Samu>without me constantly checking for events
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13:29<+glx>and how the game is supposed to know about existing lists in the AI VM ?
13:29<Samu>there's AITileLists
13:29<Samu>for tiles
13:29<Samu>i thought there could be another specific for vehicles
13:31<+glx>lists created by AIs are not readable by the game engine
13:31<+glx>and they never will be
13:32<Samu>I'm unsure about the event, I'd have to check for that event thoroughly
13:32<Samu>even perhaps inside for loops
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13:33<Samu>i don't think that's too useful
13:33<Samu>autorenew can happen in a matter of 1 frame
13:33<+glx>like a vehicle crash
13:33<+glx>there's an event for that too
13:34<nielsm>well a crashed vehicle stays around for a while
13:34<nielsm>so it's less likely to cause a problem
13:35<+glx>but it can if the list loop is time consuming
13:35<nielsm>yep
13:35<Samu>it usually is
13:35<nielsm>coming back to the core problem: not handling events
13:36<Samu>handling 500 road vehicles for my AI takes about 3 days
13:36<nielsm>instead of having a simple loop over all vehicles, check a few vehicles at a time, then go back to handle events, then check some more vehicles (but without keeping state from the previous check round)
13:37<nielsm>that's more than 200 ticks, lots of things can happen in 200 ticks
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13:45<Samu>so... the better solution is ... fix autorenew/autoreplace to make it keep the same veh id
13:45<+glx>that's not possible
13:46<+glx>because the new vehicle is created before the old one is removed
13:46<Samu>is the new vehicle really needed to be created?
13:47<Samu>can't just change data of the vehicle instead?
13:48<nielsm>that would be a big source of potential bugs
13:49<nielsm>properties forgotten or mishandled in subtle ways
13:49<+glx>while creation and deletion use existing commands
13:50<+glx>with cargo transfert between old and new
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13:52<+glx>and using existing commands takes care of all checks
13:53<+glx>without duplicating them (another source of potential bugs)
13:55<+glx>and if you don't want to rely on events, you still have the option to disable autorenew for the company
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14:13<andythenorth>industry town growth then? o_O
14:14<nielsm>sure but it needs some specifications :D
14:15<nielsm>like what happens if one industry wants town to grow and another wants it to stagnate?
14:15<nielsm>are town growth effects queried via a cb? how often?
14:16<nielsm>should town window show something about the cumulative effect of industries on its growth?
14:16<andythenorth>AIUI there's some 'town wants to grow' game event currently
14:16<nielsm>can industries cause towns to grow faster than normal, or just discourage or prevent growth?
14:17*andythenorth had better read how towns grow in src :)
14:18<andythenorth>my preferred solution is to inject something into what we've got
14:18<andythenorth>although...sometimes people with more vision have better ideas :)
14:18<nielsm>and if multiple industries pull in the same direction positive/negative growth effect, is it summed, multiplied, root of sum of squares, min/max, or something else
14:19<andythenorth>ok so I am a bad person to design specs, because I only have FIRS cases
14:20<andythenorth>my case goes something like
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14:20<andythenorth>IF a town doesn't have a certain type of industry, let town handle growth
14:20<nielsm>but yes some concrete use cases would be a useful basis for designing a spec :)
14:20<andythenorth>IF a town does have industry of type x, let industries influence town growth
14:21<andythenorth>there might be more than one industry of type x
14:21<andythenorth>and there might also be types y, z, a, b, c etc
14:21<andythenorth>I want to be able to (1) prevent all growth
14:22<andythenorth>(2) make growth happen faster than default
14:22<andythenorth>hmm, can towns shrink? :P
14:23<nielsm>they don't really have a procedure for it no
14:23<andythenorth>they do actually shrink if playing before 1930, but that's a bug :)
14:24*andythenorth ignores that
14:24<nielsm>but bugs can cause thw town zones to break in weird ways and cause a town to build low-density all the way through
14:24<nielsm>at least I've seen that happen once with the UK town replacement set
14:24<andythenorth>with base set, theatres, statues
14:24<andythenorth>fountains
14:24<nielsm>yeah
14:24<andythenorth>population collapse
14:25<andythenorth>so for basic rationale, I just want to give player a reason to deliver cargos like building materials and vehicles
14:26<nielsm>town buildings probably ought to have an "is a park/plaza" flag and avoid building too many of those relative to population and/or radius
14:26<andythenorth>probably
14:26<andythenorth>I don't know how industry influence would interact with, e.g. requirements for food, water etc
14:26<andythenorth>or with GS
14:27<nielsm>I haven't checked how GS town growth control works either
14:27<andythenorth>I'm not looking for "industry controls all town behaviour", that would be wrong
14:27<andythenorth>I don't even want to talk about GS route, it seems to cause rage quits and arguments :)
14:28*andythenorth wonders if it would only be industries in town catchments
14:28<andythenorth>power plants are an interesting case
14:28<andythenorth>what if towns didn't grow unless nearby power plant is serviced
14:29<andythenorth>what's 'nearby' in that case?
14:29<nielsm>nearest industry of type to town center?
14:29<nielsm>then every town would need to keep track of various types of industries
14:30<andythenorth>interesting
14:35<frosch123>you can probably write a gs which makes towns require oil to grow, but lowers the requirement when powerplants are serviced
14:39<milek7>there is GS that assign industries to cities
14:39<milek7>and increases growth dependent on cargo tyeps
14:39<milek7>and increases growth dependent on cargo types
14:44<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] uvealonso commented on pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings https://git.io/fjp8R
14:48<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings https://git.io/fjp8z
14:52<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] uvealonso commented on pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings https://git.io/fjp8a
15:00<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] uvealonso commented on pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings https://git.io/fjp8X
15:02<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings https://git.io/fjp81
15:06<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] uvealonso commented on pull request #7705: Fix #7704: [OSX] Handle malformed UTF8 strings https://git.io/fjp8y
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15:21<Samu>GS'es are evil
15:22<Samu>imagine a FIRS GS
15:23<Samu>there can be only one GS :(
15:23<Samu>main drawback
15:24<nielsm>because lots of things GS can do are of the category "imagine if two attempted doing this at the same time"
15:24<nielsm>i.e. things that don't have a good resolution if separate actors are pulling in each their direction
15:25<nielsm>they'll pull the rug out from under each other
15:25<andythenorth>the GS route is old ground :)
15:25*andythenorth doesn't want to retread it
15:26<andythenorth>an alternative route I could pursue is to delete town cargos
15:26<andythenorth>and just ignore towns in the game
15:26<nielsm>but really the entire execution model for both AI and GS are wrong: AI ought to run entirely asynchronously as its own process, observing the game, and GS ought to run synchronously and not have events but callbacks
15:26<andythenorth>hindsight :)
15:27<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc opened pull request #7717: Codechange: [OSX] Use std::unique_ptr with a custom deleter to simply… https://git.io/fjp43
15:27<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #7717: Codechange: [OSX] Use std::unique_ptr with a custom deleter to simply… https://git.io/fjp4s
15:27<andythenorth>there's a new version of Steeltown in dev, where town cargos are pretty much non-existent
15:27<andythenorth>it's much bette
15:27<andythenorth>better *
15:28<andythenorth>imho, town growth mechanic is the only major flaw in original TTD
15:29<nielsm>someone should have a scriptedclient video driver, headless client that runs a script and connects to a multiplayer server :)
15:29<nielsm>s/have/make/
15:30<nielsm>towns don't really have an economy of their own, you don't have rich and poor towns, industrial and commercial towns, etc.
15:31<andythenorth>somebody (ahem TB) made a spec for this
15:31<andythenorth>unifying GS and newgrf
15:31<andythenorth>but it fell in the rage quit hole :)
15:33<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7717: Codechange: [OSX] Use std::unique_ptr with a custom deleter to simply… https://git.io/fjp4C
15:33<nielsm>bikeshedding a bit here
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15:40<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #7651: Too many statues/fountains are built in town centers. https://git.io/fjXfH
15:47<+michi_cc>nielsm: LLVM uses CFReleaser somewhere in the internals, but that's not exactly a strong argument either.
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17:19<FLHerne>"imagine if two attempted doing this at the same time"
17:19<FLHerne>nielsm: But that's the case for newgrfs already, and no-one cares that you can totally break the game
17:20<FLHerne>Industries are probably the best example there
17:22<FLHerne>Also anything that modifies base vehicles or graphics
17:23<FLHerne>Or sets trying to define railtypes in incompatible ways
17:23<andythenorth>MultiGS? :P
17:23*andythenorth wonders why
17:23<FLHerne>We just shrug and say "don't do that"
17:26<FLHerne>Because GSes can do a lot of orthogonal things and it would be nice to pick-and-choose a bit more
17:28<FLHerne>e.g. there's a GS that allows limiting companies to one rail depot, to avoid the random point-to-point sprawl
17:29<andythenorth>hmm
17:29<FLHerne>But you can't use it with a goal-setting GS, or an improved-town-growth GS, because only one
17:29<andythenorth>universal modding framework!
17:30*andythenorth should stick to horses
17:30<FLHerne>Currently, most GSes are intrusive game-dominating frameworks
17:31<FLHerne>But I think there'd be more niche tweak-this-one-behaviour ones if it was actually practical to use them
17:32<andythenorth>it's an appealing thought
17:33*andythenorth wondered about scriptable UI :P
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17:37<nielsm>mii!
17:38<nielsm>wrong window :P
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19:12<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JMcKiern updated pull request #7710: WIP: Fix bugs in airport finite state machines https://git.io/fjp0Y
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