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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-09-06

---Logopened Fri Sep 06 00:00:02 2019
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03:02<Eddi|zuHause>hm... they sent me a capacitor with the wrong voltage (slightly higher), how much could go wrong with that?
03:06<Eddi|zuHause>as in, 35V instead of 25V
03:08<SpComb^>that's fine
03:08<SpComb^>as long as it's not physically too much bigger
03:10<SpComb^>if you're replacing caps, then the capacitance needs to be exact, but higher voltage/tempoerature characteristics are just a bonus, as long as it's physically compatible and the ESR characteristics are sufficient
03:13<SpComb^>replacing a failed low-ESR cap in the switched/low-voltage side of a switch-mode power supply with a non-low-ESR cap is going to end badly
03:14<Eddi|zuHause>i think i picked the correct ESR ones
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04:37<andythenorth>container wagons....what colour containers? :P
04:41<_moep_>andythenorth: pink!
04:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: random containers
04:45<Eddi|zuHause>(well, you could argue for uniform colour)
04:46<andythenorth>that might have to be on a parameter only
04:47<andythenorth>the train livery variable is only 1 bit, and I'm using it for wagon CC :P
04:47<Eddi|zuHause>well... that's a primary use for livery refits
04:47<andythenorth>the docs seem to call it 'vehicle is flipped' but I know better
04:48<andythenorth>why it wasn't made a byte, I will never know :P
04:48<Eddi|zuHause>... because you would sit there for half an hour ctrl+clicking to get the right one...
04:49<andythenorth>somewhat yes
04:49<Eddi|zuHause>for every single wagon
04:49<andythenorth>:o there's 'information' on right click in depot
04:49<Eddi|zuHause>that's called "tooltip"
04:50<andythenorth>it's a right-click tooltip though
04:50<andythenorth>gives vehicle capacity and name
04:50<Eddi|zuHause>it's only a right-click tooltip if you set tooltips to right-click
04:50<andythenorth>always something new to find in OpenTTD
04:50<Eddi|zuHause>also, tautologies are tautological
04:51<andythenorth>this isn't a conventional tooltip :)
04:51<andythenorth>conventional tooltips trigger on hover for me
04:51<andythenorth>this is a NEW FEATURE
04:51<andythenorth>except it's probably 15 years old
04:51<andythenorth>wow, it even sums trailing vehicles if I hold control
04:51<Eddi|zuHause>i'm pretty sure it is
04:51<andythenorth>that's very convenient when building trains to a certain capacity
04:54<Eddi|zuHause>r13923 seems to be from 2008
04:55<andythenorth>probably we could say it's a new feature for 2019 :P
05:02<andythenorth>container colours somewhat matching cargo?
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05:12<Eddi|zuHause>now, do i muster up the confidence to actually heat up this soldering kit?
05:13<andythenorth>you've discharged all the existing capacitors, right?
05:14<Eddi|zuHause>if being disconnected for 5 years counts?
05:14<andythenorth>residual shocks are always a bit exciting
05:14<andythenorth>especially if holding a hot soldering iron
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05:27<andythenorth>seems I can inject recolour sprites into specific layers in the sprite stack
05:27<andythenorth>containers are implemented as layers, so that's one option for controlling colour :P
06:12<andythenorth>hmm random trigger not behaving as expected
06:13<andythenorth>I'm expecting containers to randomise when receiving a new load
06:13<andythenorth>they don't
06:15<andythenorth>oh maybe I misunderstand the recolour sprites
06:18<andythenorth>random trigger appears to not be triggering
06:25<andythenorth>oh what is cb random_trigger?
06:28<andythenorth>"Note that re-randomizing is done only during a special callback, random_trigger. This callback is called whenever a trigger event occurs. As a consequence, it's absolutely necessary for the random_switch block to be in executed during this callback, or trigger-based re-randomizing won't take place. "
06:32<andythenorth>ok, so that works
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: basically, triggers are ignored if they are inside any callback
06:46<Eddi|zuHause>have to duplicate the chain inside the random_trigger callback
06:46<Eddi|zuHause>(you can get away with not having a random_trigger callback, if all your triggers are in the default graphics chain)
06:47<andythenorth>apparently not
06:47<andythenorth>that was my first assumption, from reading nml docs
06:47<Eddi|zuHause>(probably the composite sprites complicate this)
06:47<andythenorth>I can only trigger re-randomisation by chaining directly to the random switch
06:47<Eddi|zuHause>(maybe nml forces that)
06:47<andythenorth>and yes, compositing seems to be the issue
06:48<andythenorth>well it works now :)
06:49<andythenorth>hmm no
06:50<andythenorth>it's now triggering when vehicle recieves cargo during gradual loading
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you must reconstruct the decision chain that would lead to the random switch
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06:53<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: also, use the right trigger
06:53<andythenorth>it's TRIGGER_VEHICLE_NEW_LOAD currently
06:53<Eddi|zuHause>make sure you're triggering the right bits?
06:54*andythenorth experiments
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06:56<andythenorth>nope, running out of ideas :P
06:59<andythenorth>ok, seems random_trigger does have to target the switch directly
06:59<andythenorth>that would be interesting if more triggers were needed
07:03<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DIYglenn commented on issue #7644: Mysteriously poor performance on macOS
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>like i said, you must reconstruct the whole decision chain, so you only retrigger when some completely unrelated sprites are showing
07:20<andythenorth>my experience so far is the inverse
07:21<andythenorth>targeting anything except the random switch appears not to work
07:21<andythenorth>I haven't created any simple cases to prove that
07:22<andythenorth>I'm fairly convinced that any chain using composite sprites won't work, because extra_callback_info1 won't contain the right bits
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>no, you have to simulate the composition using normal switches
07:24<Eddi|zuHause>but, say, you're having two cargos, and each cargo randomizes on a different trigger, then you have to reconstruct a switch for cargo type in the random_trigger callback
07:27<andythenorth>yes that makes sense
07:29<andythenorth>under which condition should containers appear on wagons?
07:30<andythenorth>load != 0
07:30<andythenorth>load = 100%
07:30<andythenorth>load = 50%
07:31<andythenorth>correction, load > 50%
07:31<Eddi|zuHause>if we're assuming you have 2 containers per wagon, i might do something like ==0 => no containers, >0..<=75 => 1 container, >75 => 2 containers
07:32<andythenorth>there might be 1 container in some cases
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>1 large container taking the space of 2 normal containers?
07:33<andythenorth>or 1 shorter wagon
07:34<andythenorth>with only room for 1 container
07:34<andythenorth>I could write complicated rules to match the containers exactly
07:34<andythenorth>but I suspect it's not necessary
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>well, you would have a different rule for short wagons
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08:05<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DIYglenn commented on issue #7644: Mysteriously poor performance on macOS
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09:37<supermop_work>is it possible to easily make a path from the outline of a layer object in PS?
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09:48*andythenorth wonders
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10:11<nielsm>will we hold a ticket #7777 party some time soon?
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10:16<andythenorth>hmm the sRGB colorspace is really wrong on my screen
10:23<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #7644: Mysteriously poor performance on macOS
10:24<andythenorth>comparing colour is notoriously hard
10:26<nielsm>and here's an opengfx screenshot as well:
10:27<nielsm>how does your actual rendering compare to my two screenshots?
10:27<andythenorth>checking with visual diff
10:30<andythenorth>nielsm: overlaid...
10:30<nielsm>more yellow green
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10:32<andythenorth>even allowing for monitor, OS, OpenTTD, and Photoshop colorspace handling
10:32<andythenorth>1.9.1 matches yours near as dammit :)
10:37<milek7>which baseset to compare? original_dos?
10:37<andythenorth>there's another? :)
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10:38<milek7>mine too has blueish look
10:38<milek7>on X11
10:41<andythenorth>that's interesting
10:41<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened pull request #7723: Prepare for release 1.9.3
10:47<LordAro>do we not want even a single RC?
10:47<LordAro>#7709 shouldn't be included, imo
10:47<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7723: Prepare for release 1.9.3
10:48<milek7>andythenorth: "zJBO-1-9-1" doesn't match nielsm either, just zoom in:
10:49<andythenorth>where are all the magenta pixels in this grass? :)
10:49<andythenorth>that's odd
10:49<nielsm>LordAro: why not #7709 ?
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10:50<LordAro>nielsm: too "featurey"
10:52<peter1139>We've not done RCs for previous point-releases, have we?
10:52<nielsm>nope, not what I remember
10:52<nielsm>though probably should with this one, at least have some more mac users test it solves the two major issues
10:53<andythenorth>1.9.4 if it doesn't? :P
10:53<andythenorth>quality standards > high
10:53<nielsm>I'd really prefer to make a network compatible "patchlevel" release, but that would need some ugly wrangling of version numbers
10:54<LordAro>peter1139: if only there was some sort of log to indicate what went into previous releases
10:56<peter1139>LordAro, well you asked.
10:57<peter1139>If we did, I apologise, and will just fuck off because I'm not putting that much effort into something that doesn't matter to me.
10:57<LordAro>there have been 37 non-major release RC1s
10:58<LordAro>( `grep "[^0]-RC1" changelog.txt` )
10:58<LordAro>every single release since 0.4.8, as far as i can tell
11:00<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #7644: Mysteriously poor performance on macOS
11:08<andythenorth>maybe I need to calibrate my display :P
11:11<peter1139>LordAro, but no 1.9.1-RC1 nor 1.9.2-RC1.
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11:18<LordAro>peter1139: ah, true
11:19<LordAro>i'm perfectly happy to say that that practice was discarded with the move to GH :)
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11:28<andythenorth>checking cargo classes in nml
11:28<andythenorth>is it match any, or match all?
11:29<andythenorth>bitmask(CC_REFRIGERATED) isn't picking up food
11:29<andythenorth>food cargo has CC_REFRIGERATED, CC_EXPRESS set
11:29<supermop_work>i figured out the path thing
11:30<andythenorth>was it possible?
11:30<supermop_work>not as nice as i wanted
11:30<supermop_work>so i don't think i can automate
11:30<andythenorth>hmm classes are 'match all'
11:31<+glx>andythenorth: Available cargo classes are listed in the following table. Cargos may be in more than one class. Cargo classes are always used as a bitmask, use the built-in function bitmask(). For example, bitmask(CC_EXPRESS, CC_REFRIGERATED) is used for food.
11:31<+glx>from the doc
11:31<andythenorth>is there a better way, it's a bitmask, I should be able to pick out individual classes?
11:31<supermop_work>select -> make work path -> stroke path with brush
11:31<andythenorth>having to check all combinations is combinatorial explosion :|
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: needs more context
11:32<supermop_work>but the select thing i basically have to magic wand it
11:33<andythenorth>'cargo_classes' var here
11:33<andythenorth>first 4 bits of var 47 in real money
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: checking var in a switch? use "cargo_classes & bitmask(CC_REFRIGERATED)"
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>0 -> not there, 1 -> there
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>not 1
11:34<+glx>should pick all cargo with CC_REFRIGERATED yes
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you can't read "cargo_classes" and then use bitmask(CC_REFRIGERATED) as a switch-case
11:35<andythenorth>so I need a switch for every class I want to check
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11:36<+glx>bitmask needs to be used as a mask ;)
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you need a switch-chain if you want to avoid combinatorial explosion
11:37*andythenorth remembering how to nml
11:37<andythenorth>mostly I don't write nml
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>me neither :p
11:38<+glx>depending on your goal you can check all the classes you want to keep directly
11:39<+glx>but if each class needs a different handling they have to be separated
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>you can also use bit-magic to rearrange the classes in order of priority, then you can use range checks
11:39<andythenorth>what a lot of switches to write :P
11:39<andythenorth>bit magic sounds cooler
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>it'll get annoying to write
11:40<andythenorth>let's not then
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>basic structure is: "cc & b(CC_n) >> CC_n << k" to move the n-th cargo class to the k-th bit
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>you combine those with |
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>and then you can check ranges: 0 : none, 1: lowest, 2..3: mid, 4..7: higher, ...
11:43<+glx>I think you can switch on cargo_classes & bitmask(CC you want) and then use bitmask in switch-case
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>ranges are always 2^k..2^(k+1)-1
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>higher k means higher priority
11:45<+glx>(easy if CC are mutually exclusive)
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>all lower priority classes will be ignored
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>... the switch-chain approach might be the better and clearer idea :p
11:49<andythenorth>so it's 0 if the class is present, or 1?
11:49*andythenorth could work out the actual bits, but asking is easier :P
11:49<+glx>1 if present
11:50<andythenorth>single or double &?
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>it's 0 if it's not present, and something-else
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>if it's present
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>1,2,4,8, ...
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>unless you >> CC_whatever
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>then it's 1
11:50<+glx>if CC is present the corresponding bit is 1
11:50<andythenorth>ok, so checking 0 is easier
11:50<+glx>and single &
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>checking 0 should be easier
11:51*andythenorth wonders why it doesn't work
11:52*andythenorth checks for EBKC
11:54<andythenorth>ok works now, EBKC resolved
11:54<andythenorth>everyone breathe out
11:55<+glx>error between keyboard and chair
11:55<andythenorth>usually PEBKAC but I'm lazy
12:02<Samu>here's what CargoClass look like
12:02<Samu>@calc 1 >> 10
12:02<@DorpsGek>Samu: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
12:03<Samu>there's the 4096 which is unknown
12:03<Samu>@calc 2 **10
12:03<@DorpsGek>Samu: 1024
12:03<Samu>@calc 2 **11
12:03<@DorpsGek>Samu: 2048
12:03<Samu>@calc 2 **12
12:03<@DorpsGek>Samu: 4096
12:04<Samu>this screenshot should have the town window
12:06<+glx>but andy know cargo classes ;)
12:06<+glx>he's on the newgrf side
12:08<Samu>still not perfect, coming up with another screenshot
12:10<Samu>from passengers to wool
12:12<Samu>GOOD has the effect of WATER
12:12<Samu>PETR has the effect of GOODS
12:13<andythenorth>you're using FIRS?
12:13<andythenorth>you're relying on cargo town effects?
12:13<andythenorth>FIRS cargo town effects make no sense
12:14<Samu>you could make beer have a TE_WATER
12:14<andythenorth>if anyone wants to patch FIRS town effects so they work, it's on github
12:14<Samu>and water too, there can be multiple cargos with the same effect
12:14<andythenorth>I don't understand them
12:15<Samu>I didn't at first, then I investigated openttd code
12:17<Samu>FISH, FRUT, GRAI could all fit into TE_FOOD
12:18<+glx> <-- indeed petrol for goods
12:18<+glx> <-- and good for water
12:19<Samu>cargo class means nothing to towns, they don't care which class it is, only the effect
12:19<andythenorth>what is TOWNGROWTH_GOODS even for?
12:19<andythenorth>is this the fallacy that goods grows towns?
12:20<andythenorth>I don't even want to talk about cargo town effects :|
12:22<Samu>We couldn’t find any code matching 'TOWN_GROWTH_GOODS' in OpenTTD/OpenTTD
12:22<+glx>TE_GOODS in openttd source
12:22<+glx>I think
12:23<andythenorth>wtf does it do? :o
12:23<Samu>oh, TE is Town effect then
12:23<andythenorth>TOWNGROWTH_GOODS Affect towns as goods/candy does
12:23<andythenorth>what even is this?
12:23<andythenorth>TOWNGROWTH_MAIL Affect towns as mail does
12:23<andythenorth>how does mail affect towns?
12:24<Samu>let me check toyland, to make sure
12:24*andythenorth provides emojis
12:24<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it doesn't.
12:24<andythenorth>is this just vestigal crap?
12:24<andythenorth>due to the way the spec has evolved?
12:24<Eddi|zuHause>scripts can use this
12:24<Samu>those are town effects
12:24<Samu>in newgrf they call it towngrowth?
12:24<andythenorth>so "Affect towns as mail does" is always returned as 0?
12:25<Eddi|zuHause>it's the only way scripts can get information from the newgrf
12:25<+glx>gamescript can do things differently
12:25*andythenorth hates all this crap
12:25<Eddi|zuHause>it's up to them what they do with this information
12:25*andythenorth back to trains
12:26<+glx>but passenger, goods, food and water are used in vanilla I think
12:26<+glx>depending on climate
12:27<Samu>swet are good
12:27<Samu>fzdr are food
12:27*andythenorth was about to ban livestock from container wagons, but eh
12:27<andythenorth>who knew? :P
12:27<+glx>Samu: FIRS is disabled in toyland I think
12:28<Samu>even openttd doesn't use water for fizzy drinks
12:28<+glx>cargo labels clearly are from default cargos
12:29<andythenorth>Samu: are you trying to find out what it does, or why?
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12:31<Samu>in default openttd, if you deliver passengers to oil rigs, it still affects the town because passengers were delivered, i'm just not sure what kind of effect though
12:32<Samu>even if you don't transport any pass to the town itself
12:32<nielsm>a passenger delivery is a passenger delivery, regardless of where they go
12:33*andythenorth wonders about the industry town growth thing :P
12:33<nielsm>if you delivered passengers to a soylent green factory they'd also count for town growth
12:33<+glx>as long as it's in town territory
12:34<Samu>town growth update counter thing?
12:34<Samu>speeds up the counter?
12:34<andythenorth>what could we do that's more lolz and less weird
12:38<andythenorth>for town growth
12:38<nielsm>commercial buildings that act as mini-industries
12:38<nielsm>but are not real industries
12:39<andythenorth>it's not even town growth that's interesting actually :)
12:39<andythenorth>it's having a reason to deliver to towns
12:39<andythenorth>I could prevent industries producing unless town population is > n
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13:09<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] AbeWJS commented on issue #7644: Mysteriously poor performance on macOS
13:12<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SoothedTau commented on issue #7644: Mysteriously poor performance on macOS
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13:19*andythenorth wonders about insane number of container sprites
13:19<andythenorth>all cargos can go in containers :P
13:20<andythenorth>open top and flat containers should show cargo sprites eh :P
13:33<andythenorth>maybe later :P
13:45<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
13:45<DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
13:54<Wolf01>andythenorth: full intermodal and cargo icon layer :P
13:55<arikover>I applied for the French translation at, but did not get an answer. Is anybody checking the mail here? Or is there another address?
13:55<+glx>I think someone checks the mail, but then need to do a lot of manual work
13:58<Samu>trying to make my AI build PASS and MAIL routes at the same time
13:59<Samu>instead of being fixed to one cargo or the other
13:59<Samu>getting some management problems with town pairs and vehicle renewing
13:59<Samu>but it's under way
14:16<arikover>glx: I guess, but that's been 2 weeks now... Maybe my e-mail was not properly sent.
14:17<arikover>glx: Do you happen to know who is checking this mailbox? Maybe I can write a PM on the forums.
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14:36<andythenorth>was lunch?
14:36*andythenorth wonders if peter1139 has an alert on lunch yet
14:42<supermop_work>had a fancy shwarma
14:48*andythenorth had curry
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15:44<Samu>dang it
15:44<Samu>i need another array, one for mail, one for pass
15:44<Samu>was putting them in the same bag
15:44<Samu>but then i check for array length
16:04<Samu>function HasArrayCargoClassPairs(cargoClass) {
16:04<Samu>no need for extra array
16:04<Samu>(I think)
16:12<Samu>how do I remove an entry from an array?
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17:07<Samu>it builds mail more often than passengers
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17:17*andythenorth drawing
17:21<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7627: Fix #7626: Allow building of drive-through stops over one-way/blocked roads owned by towns (instead of crashing).
17:21<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #7627: Fix #7626: Allow building of drive-through stops over one-way/blocked roads owned by towns (instead of crashing).
17:21<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh closed issue #7626: Building drive through road stop on town-owned one-way road crashes game.
17:24<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7627: Fix #7626: Allow building of drive-through stops over one-way/blocked roads owned by towns (instead of crashing).
17:25<andythenorth>shipping containers
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17:25<andythenorth>need to be odd pixel lengths
17:25<andythenorth>they're drawn as a pattern of light-dark-light-dark-light
17:25<andythenorth>but 32 doesn't divide nicely between odd pixel lengths :P
17:28<andythenorth>also means 40 foot containers aren't 2 x 20 foot
17:28<andythenorth>they're (2 * 20 foot) + 1 pixel :D
17:28<andythenorth>lolz not even 1st world problems
17:28<nielsm>sounds like you're in a pickles
17:30<andythenorth>I was hoping to automate more and draw less :)
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17:45<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7701: Fix #7188: check the validity of command callback for scripts
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17:47<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7628: Fix #7625: Road infrastructure cost is correctly updated when upgrading your own roads.
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18:37<LordAro> draft changelog for 1.10
18:37<LordAro>thoughts/complaints appreciated
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19:34<ToBeFree>"Option to show local authority boundary of towns (#7025)" oooooh nice.
19:47<LordAro>i still think the option is a bit hidden, but eh
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20:16<Eddi|zuHause>someone should have finished #7000
21:11<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: should a released feature contain the word "experimental"?
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---Logclosed Sat Sep 07 00:00:03 2019