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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-09-10

---Logopened Tue Sep 10 00:00:07 2019
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04:30<Samu>PASS is beating PASS & MAIL, and MAIL
04:32<Samu>can't say I'm surprised, it's Hereford Leopard bus era, the mail truck engine is still the first model
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06:34<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sirkoz commented on issue #7731: Under WinXP OpenTTD fails to sort savegames by date https://git.io/JevsA
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07:56<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #7731: Under WinXP OpenTTD fails to sort savegames by date https://git.io/JevsA
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>(i hope i didn't overstep any lines)
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08:04<@planetmaker>sound argument IMHO @ Eddi|zuHause
08:05<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #7731: Under WinXP OpenTTD fails to sort savegames by date https://git.io/JevsA
08:05<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth closed issue #7731: Under WinXP OpenTTD fails to sort savegames by date https://git.io/JevsA
08:07<@planetmaker>https://wiki.openttd.org/Operating_system <-- maybe it should contain version ranges... like Windows XP supported till 1.8.0 or so
08:08<@planetmaker>95/98 is not supported at least according to our download page
08:09*andythenorth has a modest proposal
08:09<andythenorth>officially support nothing :P
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>that doesn't help anyone :p
08:09<andythenorth>probably far too time consuming
08:10<andythenorth>policies are only valuable as far as they save time
08:10<andythenorth>and thinking
08:10<andythenorth>is anyone in charge any more?
08:10<andythenorth>I know rubidium isn't, and I thought truebrain might be, for a bit
08:10<andythenorth>but now I'm not sure :)
08:11<andythenorth>rotating presidency, like the EU? o_O
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>putting TrueBrain in charge of anything sounds like a bad idea :p
08:11*andythenorth back to PECR, GDPR and ISO 27001
08:11<andythenorth>policy max
08:11<andythenorth>also lunch
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08:29<peter1139>It was.
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09:57<andythenorth>it was
09:57<nielsm>was it?
10:10<milek7>for the record, i checked 1.9.2 on winxp and sorting works fine
10:13<andythenorth>allegedly not ?
10:14<nielsm>it probably depends on the compiler/stdlib used
10:15<milek7>tested 32bit installer from openttd.org
10:16<nielsm>okay so it actually works... impressive
10:16<andythenorth>I dis-enjoyed the tone of the comment so I closed it
10:16<andythenorth>I don't think it's lost in translation, I think it's just tedious angry entitlement
10:17<andythenorth>if it was supposed to be lolz, the emoji was missing
10:17<nielsm>the reporter probably read some smartypants guide about how to improve file system performance by disabling modification times recording
10:17<nielsm>and is then surprised when applications that request the mtime of files gets nothing
10:17<andythenorth>it's a waste of our time IMHO and no fun
10:17<andythenorth>OpenTTD should be fun
10:17<andythenorth>main criteria :P
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10:21<andythenorth>milek7: thanks for checking though :)
10:22<milek7>oh
10:22<milek7>i'm dumb
10:23<milek7>give me few minutes, i need to check that again ;P
10:24*andythenorth has to go
10:24<andythenorth>new modest proposal: support OS on the same basis as the OS vendor
10:24<andythenorth>I think that's what we're doing for Apple already
10:24<andythenorth>last 2 major revs
10:26<andythenorth>BIAB
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10:39<Eddi|zuHause>there's a difference between "actively supported" and "if it happens to work, great"
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10:48<nielsm>our readme file says windows is supported, but not which versions, it's reasonable to interpret that as just the versions supported by the vendor
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10:48<@planetmaker>Then we should update the web page(s) :)
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10:54<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I was thinking about this
10:54<andythenorth>we don't do 'supported' like a paid product, because all the reasons
10:55<andythenorth>'supported' AFAICT relates to the binaries we'll produce on the compile farm
10:55<andythenorth>and then what compilers etc we'll work with
10:56<andythenorth>which affects what we might take as a master PR (support / maintain for minority platforms)
10:56<andythenorth>that's my impression from last 18 months anyway
10:57<andythenorth>we seem to be naturally open to support, unless it affects (for example) C++ versions and standards, cmake, etc
10:57<@planetmaker>there's basically two levels of "supported": "provide binary" and "support with code, but don't provide binary"
10:57<@planetmaker>like "solaris" was never supported in binary - but there supposedly is all the code to make it work there w/o errors
10:57<andythenorth>there's one level that's really important IMHO
10:58<andythenorth>-> if a maintainer goes to effort for a minority platform on the understanding that we support it, then we need to drop it because of upstream reasons -> not going to go well
10:58<andythenorth>I think we can be upfront about that, without in any way committing to fix all bugs for supported platform x, which is a different issue
10:59<@planetmaker>"active support" vs. "passive support"?
10:59<andythenorth>something like that
10:59<@planetmaker>And yes, making that distinction might be good.
10:59<andythenorth>'our choices of coding standards, supported compilers etc is determined by support policy x'
11:00<@planetmaker>sounds already burocratic ;)
11:00<andythenorth>'we may accept PRs for other OSes, but with no guarantee of forwards compatibility'
11:00<andythenorth>I know, it's bureacracy :(
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>bürokröte?
11:01<nielsm>nobody on the dev team cares about making sure everything is flawless on XP, therefore nothing is tested there and nothing is done about bug reports about it
11:01<@planetmaker>Just simple: "We actively develop for currently supported versions of Windows, Linux and OSX. We accept pull-requests to support other platforms, but cannot assure to maintain them
11:02<@planetmaker>...currently vendor-supported versions of...
11:02<andythenorth>for macOS it's already de-facto "we don't support versions of macOS that are no longer supported by Apple"
11:02<andythenorth>which is last 2
11:02<andythenorth>simple policy
11:02<@planetmaker>for windows it's also the de-facto standard
11:03<@planetmaker>after all: no-one sane uses unsupported windoze
11:03<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it's different for mac, because it's difficult to compile. but on windows, once it works, it probably keeps working.
11:03<andythenorth>I love a microsoft document :P https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet
11:03<nielsm>FACT SHEET!
11:03<@planetmaker>but "keeps working" is different from "we actively check that it works"
11:03<andythenorth>yes
11:03<Eddi|zuHause>that's what i meant with my opening statement.
11:03<andythenorth>we actively check nothing
11:03<andythenorth>it's GPL
11:03<andythenorth>no guarantees etc
11:04<andythenorth>Apple is simple
11:05<andythenorth>MS is maybe simple, if anyone can make sense of the fact sheet
11:05<andythenorth>Linux I have NFI :)
11:05<andythenorth>Solaris NFI
11:05<andythenorth>*BSD, especially FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD NFI :)
11:05<andythenorth>I used solaris once 22 years ago maybe
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>linux is too fractured, and we mostly rely on the downstream maintainers
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>we only provide binaries for the most popular platforms, debian and ubuntu, but you can compile it on most other modern distros, and many distros include it
11:07<andythenorth>if we can put a policy in a paste or gist, I will format it and put it in the website
11:07<andythenorth>or even we could just have one support policy, in github,
11:07<andythenorth>and not 3
11:20<peter1139>"Assigned #7733 to @PeterN." < lol
11:21<andythenorth>sounds like my day job
11:21<andythenorth>7733 is an outage report :P
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13:04<milek7>nielsm:
13:04<milek7>about that sorting:
13:04<milek7>it indeed doesn't work
13:04<milek7>i got confused because it still sorts by name, and missed that it didn't sort correctly.. ;P
13:04<milek7>trying to debug this i got completely sidetracked by FiosIsValidFile, which reads modification time from WIN32_FIND_DATA, and it is correct
13:04<milek7>but FiosFileScanner doesn't use that data and reads once more, from _tstat, which as implemented in CRT uses kernel32.dll:GetFileInformationByHandleEx
13:04<milek7>..and as docs specify, "Minimum supported client: Windows Vista"
13:04<milek7>and it doesn't crash outright because it uses GetProcAddress to resolve that symbol
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13:04<milek7>i guess switching to *_xp toolchain would be more compatible
13:08<frosch123>someone wants to do an interview with some american/romanian pupils?
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13:12<Eddi|zuHause>what would that accomplish?
13:19<andythenorth>frosch123: do they have a question? :)
13:19<frosch123>no, they ask whether they may send question
13:20<frosch123>but they want to write an article in their highscool magazine
13:21<frosch123>though considering it's a highschool, they probably want to write about playing the game, not about deving it
13:21<frosch123>so, maybe some goal server dude wants to advertise their community? :p
13:22<frosch123>https://thebite.aisb.ro/index.php/about
13:22<frosch123>that's their "reference"
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13:28<Wolf01>o/
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13:33<andythenorth>did anyone figure out the MS roadmap? o_O
13:33<andythenorth>and is my suggested approach valid?
13:35<andythenorth>hmm, do we trust wiki-sometimes-not-very-accurate? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Microsoft_Windows_versions
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>no.
13:40<andythenorth>to all 3? :)
13:45<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/JemI3
13:45<DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
13:47<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] j-pet commented on issue #7731: Under WinXP OpenTTD fails to sort savegames by date https://git.io/JevsA
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14:16<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] j-pet commented on pull request #7730: Change: Use vehicle model age for station rating calculation https://git.io/JemI7
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14:43<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #7730: Change: Use vehicle model age for station rating calculation https://git.io/JemLR
14:47<andythenorth>hmm
14:47*andythenorth tanks or horse?
14:48<andythenorth>FWIW ratings always trip me up
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14:48<andythenorth>I always allocate a train with about 1 month's capacity relative to industry production
14:48<andythenorth>forgetting that I'll get at best about 0.69 of that
14:49<andythenorth>doesn't really affect gameplay though
14:49<andythenorth>I did play FIRS with 100% station rating for about a year, but it's potato / potato
14:50<Samu>listening to "a forest"
14:50<Samu>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHmg2iXARbg
14:54<Samu>the last mail truck is only available from 2018 or 19, right?
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14:55<Samu>current results disappoint me
14:56<Samu>PASS > MAIL > PASS&MAIL
14:58<Samu>on the bright side, it's actually interesting that MAIL is performing so well
14:59<Samu>but I was expecting PASS&MAIL to be the better
14:59<supermop_work>andythenorth: i usually build 1 mo capacity
14:59<supermop_work>and accept that it will run slightly under utilized
15:00<+glx>PASS&MAIL should be better I think, maybe your code is wrong :)
15:01<supermop_work>i think i messed up with bus introduction generations
15:01<Samu>it's because engine models are better for PASS
15:02<Samu>faster, more capacity
15:02<Samu>but still... PASS&MAIL should be at least 2nd place, it's 3rd
15:02<supermop_work>huh?
15:03<Samu>it's the year 2009, superbus is coming, maybe now it'll get 2nd place
15:03<Samu>and PASS will be even further ahead
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15:09<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> to all 3? :) <-- yes
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15:40<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7731: Under WinXP OpenTTD fails to sort savegames by date https://git.io/JevsA
15:44<nielsm>andythenorth: the MS lifecycle page tells nothing about XP because it's completely out of support :) it does tell that win7 will leave extended support january next year, so probably visual studio 2020 or 2021 will default to a runtime that targets win8.1 minimum
15:44<andythenorth>can we use this information?
15:45<andythenorth>:)
15:45<andythenorth>does it help our cause?
15:45<+glx>windows 10 1803 will be phased out soon
15:45<nielsm>it's difficult to beat people over the head with a rolled up paper that no longer exists :D
15:46<nielsm>someone argued that MS released a patch for XP recently
15:46<andythenorth>lolz and so on
15:46<nielsm>that was for an extremely wormable exploit and was done to protect the internet at large from the idiots still running xp
15:46<andythenorth>I have to deal with this crap sometimes for things like IE, and SSL
15:46<andythenorth>and who supports what
15:47<andythenorth>and historically my customer base are amongst the last to upgrade :P
15:48<+glx>I remember the time even 9x was present in msdn, but they removed all old versions from the docs
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>"the idiots still running xp" <-- and the companies that have machines built 20 years ago that they can neither update nor replace
15:49<+glx>there are still NT4 systems IIRC
15:50<nielsm>majority of my users are in healthcare, and I can't remember when I last saw an XP machine in regular use
15:50<nielsm>(only one I know of it an isolated VM used to access historical data from an ancient system, used a few times a year)
15:51<+glx>yeah I have an XP VM just for using my scanner
15:51<+glx>because the driver is 32bit only
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>a few years ago there was an airport in paris that had to shut down because they didn't find someone to maintain their win 3.1 system
15:52<+glx>not surprising
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>apparently the 3 people authorised/trained to handle it all were busy/on vacation
15:52<+glx>why renew something if it still works
15:53<+glx>new software is often broken
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, like win 10 updates that delete all your files :p
15:54<+glx>that's why COBOL is still in use in some places
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>they had an old XP-era server at my last company, that they were trying to phase out
15:55<nielsm>well COBOL has two things going for it, it's common and it's business-oriented
15:57<nielsm>end of discussion.
16:05<nielsm>:P
16:07<Samu>COmmon and Business-Oriented L
16:07<nielsm>congratulations you win a peanut
16:09<Samu>COBOL (/ˈkoʊbɒl, -bɔːl/; an acronym for "common business-oriented language")
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16:10<nielsm>lol
16:10<+glx>nice one
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16:17<andythenorth>oh dear :)
16:17<andythenorth>come back samu
16:17<andythenorth>all is forgiven
16:49<LordAro>"autokilled"
16:49<LordAro>amazing
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17:38<Eddi|zuHause>i always knew Samu was a spambot
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18:25-!-tokai is "Christian Rosentreter" on #openttd
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---Logclosed Wed Sep 11 00:00:09 2019