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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-09-16

---Logopened Mon Sep 16 00:00:16 2019
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04:05<andythenorth>o/
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07:27<peter1139>Is it lunch yet?
07:28-!-thexa4 [~textual@50709B64.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has quit [Quit: My computer has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
07:38<andythenorth>I had a pre-lunch snack
07:38<andythenorth>toast
07:39<andythenorth>later I will have lunch
07:39<andythenorth>toast
07:41*andythenorth wonders about a new town grid
07:41<andythenorth>which makes building in towns easier
08:27<andythenorth>something like 3x3 protected areas, to enforce gaps
08:28<andythenorth>and maybe a more lax attitude to road modification :P
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10:45<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Milek7 updated pull request #7510: Emscripten support https://git.io/fjm0r
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12:35<andythenorth>yo
12:35<nielsm>hi
12:38<andythenorth>new town grid then? :D
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12:43<milek7>https://milek7.pl/openttd-wasm/
12:43<milek7>updated
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13:15*andythenorth had an idea for towns
13:15<andythenorth>instead of trying to force a specific street layout
13:16<andythenorth>to create gaps etc
13:16<andythenorth>rather designate clusters of tiles in the town zone as 'cannot build here'
13:21<nielsm>as in, the town reserves a bunch of tiles for itself ahead of time?
13:21<nielsm>and then slowly expands into that?
13:24<andythenorth>I find later-stage OpenTTD cities very pointless
13:25<andythenorth>in fact, I now discourage them growing where I can
13:25<andythenorth>it is interesting to play one or two games trying to service a 10k city with buses
13:25<andythenorth>but it's not sustainable fun :D
13:25<andythenorth>mostly cities just get in the way of building routes
13:26<andythenorth>my hope is that we can provide an option where cities leave large blocks of connected tiles open
13:33<andythenorth>picture > words https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9497/cities_eh.png
13:37<nnyby>yeah, that city needs something like central park
13:38<nnyby>and a highway system
13:39<andythenorth>there are 7 cities like that on that map
13:39<andythenorth>512x256
13:39<andythenorth>and about 40% sea
13:40<andythenorth>so actually, the game is kind of over as far as train routes go
13:40<andythenorth>unless I use magic bulldozer, maximum sandbox mode
13:41<nnyby>magic bulldozer? there's always room for more stations if you make space, isn't there?
13:41<nnyby>but i agree that large cities get boring
13:41<andythenorth>magic bulldozer solves all problems
13:41<+glx>large cities and passengers
13:41<andythenorth>there is a GS, Villages is Villages which solves this somewhat
13:42<andythenorth>but then I can't use other GS
13:42<nnyby>seems difficult to tackle in openttd though. what would make large cities more interesting? possibilities of a subway system? highways? cultural exports? not sure how that would fit together, but sounds cool.
13:42<andythenorth>ha, maybe I should just set towns to none?
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13:52<nielsm>allow town buildings further away from roads, increase grid spacing, add some kind of preference to building types and generate districts
13:52<nielsm>so roads waste fewer tiles
13:52<nielsm>and ideally add support for larger buildings, like 3x3 or 2x4 or such
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13:55<LordAro>so 1.9.3 ?
13:56<andythenorth>hurrah
13:56<andythenorth>nielsm: all sounds plausible
13:56<nielsm>LordAro not sure, there's that alt solution to the colorspace thing
13:56<andythenorth>and maybe try to prevent nonsense bits of road that prevent crossings, or maybe that's fixed already
13:56<nielsm>and I'm not sure which is more good
13:56<milek7>colorspace driver param?
13:57<LordAro>nielsm: i certainly have no way to tell one way or the other
13:58<andythenorth>the michi patch is better for me
13:58<LordAro>how much better?
13:58<nielsm>performance or rendition?
14:03<andythenorth>performance about same, in limited tests
14:03<andythenorth>colour rendition is unchanged from 1.8
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14:04<andythenorth>I would be very very sceptical about any mac performance reports currently
14:04<andythenorth>I have a fair-sized save, 400 vehicles, running at 33fps
14:05<andythenorth>I have another game, just testing ~10 trains, running at 22fps
14:05<andythenorth>something is wrong in gotham
14:06<andythenorth>the slow games are not trivially reproducible, I just reloaded it and it's now 33fps
14:08<andythenorth>anyway LordAro the colour space patch does solve full animation FPS for me
14:08<nielsm>that sounds like the kind of slowness that goes away if you try to add instrumentation
14:08<andythenorth>and the michi patch is the preferred version
14:08<andythenorth>there is no reason to substantially change the colours of the game
14:09<nielsm>let's merge michi's patch then, also to 1.9, and release
14:09<andythenorth>+1
14:10<LordAro>(y)
14:10<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7741: Fix #7644: [OSX] Try to use system colour space to avoid video output… https://git.io/JeOcH
14:11<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7741: Fix #7644: [OSX] Try to use system colour space to avoid video output… https://git.io/JeYoJ
14:11<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #7644: Mysteriously poor performance on macOS https://git.io/fjii3
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14:17<andythenorth>thx
14:21<andythenorth>nielsm: is everything 'regions'? :P
14:21<nielsm>what?
14:24<nielsm>backport? https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7740
14:24<nielsm>backport? https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7736
14:24<nielsm>backport? https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7727
14:24*andythenorth wondering if regions concept can control town growth
14:25<andythenorth>probably not, wrong level of intervention
14:25<LordAro>nielsm: might as well (for all 3)
14:26<LordAro>#7740 doesn't really need to bother with a changelog entry
14:26<LordAro>imo
14:26<nielsm>7727 doesn't apply cleanly and will be annoying to fix :P
14:26<LordAro>really? but it's such a simple change
14:26<nielsm>actually no
14:26<nielsm>I'll just redo it :P
14:27<LordAro>what's changed in that area?
14:27<nielsm>the surrounding function signature
14:28<nielsm>so the items to sort have a different level of indirection
14:29<nielsm>but yeah it was still a simple fix after actually looking at the conflict :P
14:29<nielsm>this just makes it look worse than it is: https://0x0.st/zyYZ.png
14:29<LordAro>ha, yes
14:33<nielsm>https://0x0.st/zyYq.txt
14:33<nielsm>new RC or just fast-track release?
14:33<LordAro>release
14:39<nielsm>hmm I just noticed, in the debian package changelog, _every_ version is unstable
14:39<LordAro>yep
14:39<LordAro>i don't understand why either
14:40<LordAro>possibly because it's not the actual version that's packaged by blathjis?
14:41<LordAro>ijs*
14:45<LordAro>nielsm: #7699 as well?
14:45<andythenorth>oh, I don't understand newgrf random triggers :)
14:45<andythenorth>hmm
14:46<andythenorth>how do I only reset some of the random bits? I want container to change colour, but not wagon
14:48<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened pull request #7743: Prepare for 1.9.3 release https://git.io/JeOCn
14:49<nielsm>andythenorth: use an AND operation to mask out the bits you don't want?
14:52<andythenorth>not sure random bits work that way?
14:56<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7743: Prepare for 1.9.3 release https://git.io/JeOCn
14:57<nielsm>better restart the CI build, forgot a blank line in changelog.txt
14:57<LordAro>high importance
15:05<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/website] nielsmh pushed 1 commits to release-1.9.3 https://git.io/JeOCN
15:05<DorpsGek_III> - Update release date (by nielsmh)
15:05<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/website] nielsmh updated pull request #100: Add: Release 1.9.3 newspost https://git.io/fjjjh
15:08<nielsm>ship it?
15:08<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7743: Prepare for 1.9.3 release https://git.io/JeOCh
15:09<andythenorth>ship it
15:09<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #7743: Prepare for 1.9.3 release https://git.io/JeOCn
15:09<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh pushed 7 commits to release/1.9 https://git.io/JeOWe
15:09<DorpsGek_III> - Fix #7479: Don't close construction windows when changing client name (by nielsmh)
15:09<DorpsGek_III> - Fix #7644: [OSX] Try to use system colour space to avoid video output performance degradation. (by michicc)
15:09<DorpsGek_III> - Change: [OSX] Recreate backing store if the colour profile of the screen (or the screen) the game window is one changes. (by michicc)
15:09<DorpsGek_III> - Fix: Use natural sort when sorting the file list. (by j-pet)
15:09<DorpsGek_III> - Fix: inconsistent description for 32bpp-sse4-anim blitter (#7740) (by glx22)
15:09<DorpsGek_III> - Fix: Avoid using stat to retrieve file modification times on Windows (#7731) (by orudge)
15:09<DorpsGek_III> - Update: Changelog for 1.9.3 and prepare for release (by nielsmh)
15:09<LordAro>oh yeah, there was that thing that TB said we should do
15:10<LordAro>ah well, probably the last change to that branch
15:10<nielsm>hm?
15:11<LordAro>https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/commit/03aaf695a5875d5a83c25142b7a78a8641af97d3
15:11<nielsm>ah
15:14<nielsm>tag and release made
15:17<LordAro>\o/
15:17<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/website] LordAro approved pull request #100: Add: Release 1.9.3 newspost https://git.io/JeOWs
15:17<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/website] LordAro merged pull request #100: Add: Release 1.9.3 newspost https://git.io/fjjjh
15:17<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/website] LordAro pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/JeOWG
15:17<DorpsGek_III> - Add: Release 1.9.3 newspost (#100) (by nielsmh)
15:19<nielsm>https://wiki.openttd.org/To_do_for_releases#Post_release
15:19<andythenorth>quak
15:20<LordAro>website needs a tag once the CI is done
15:26<nielsm>the container build process for the website still feels rather ridiculous to me
15:26<nielsm>on the level of, "we need a new post on the website, order a new machine so we can set it up and trash the old server afterwards"
15:27<andythenorth>that's the modern world
15:27<nielsm>(I know that's not quite what's happening)
15:27<andythenorth>remember when we had ftp? :P
15:27<nielsm>hacking your php3 website in production over ftp
15:27<nielsm>that was life
15:27<andythenorth>yes
15:27<andythenorth>editing live
15:27<andythenorth>and multi-tenant
15:27<andythenorth>no isolation
15:28<andythenorth>all customers in one DB on one box
15:28<andythenorth>'table based isolation strategy'
15:28<andythenorth>:P
15:30<nielsm>website released
15:30<LordAro>haha
15:30<LordAro>woo
15:31<milek7>i still do it
15:31<milek7>(hacking production over ftp)
15:31<nielsm>depends on what you're producing, really ;)
15:34<peter1139>NewGRF dock patches?
15:35<nielsm>website is up!
15:35<nielsm>who fixes topic etc?
15:37<LordAro>someone with op
15:37<LordAro>@whoami
15:37<@DorpsGek>LordAro: I don't recognize you.
15:38<andythenorth>hurrah
15:38<andythenorth>peter1139: backport to 1.9.4!
15:38<peter1139>@whoami
15:38<@DorpsGek>peter1139: I don't recognize you.
15:38-!-peter1139 is now known as peter1138
15:38<andythenorth>hmm I think I did something dumb
15:38<peter1138>@whoami
15:38<@DorpsGek>peter1138: I don't recognize you.
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15:39-!-peter1138 changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.9.3 | Website: *.openttd.org (source: github, translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only
15:39<nielsm>anyone can do forum mod things and change stickyness of threads?
15:39<@peter1138>andythenorth, is it lunch time?
15:40<@peter1138>nielsm, done, I think. Not sure with the new(?) theme...
15:41<nielsm>looks right
15:46<nielsm>I did (some of) the wiki maintenance stuff for versions too, the proper version pages are not written for any 1.8 or 1.9 versions
15:47<@peter1138>Heh "oops"?
15:47<andythenorth>peter1138: definitely lunch
15:48<andythenorth>so I am using random bits from the vehicle
15:48<andythenorth>and re-randomising them on load
15:48<andythenorth>then I am surprised that they changed :P
15:49<andythenorth>super dumb
15:49*andythenorth wonders if each layer could have random bits, with re-rolls per layer
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16:22<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/DorpsGek] TrueBrain opened issue #7: Always use .dorpsgek.yml of main (master) branch https://git.io/JeOlW
16:23<TrueBrain>LordAro: ^^ because we will keep forgetting to backport these things over the next months ;)
16:23<LordAro>eh, it only mattered for 1.9, and now 1.9 is "done"
16:23<LordAro>:p
16:24<TrueBrain>yeah .... and then we branch 1.10
16:24<TrueBrain>and we make another change
16:24<TrueBrain>... etc etc :P
16:24<TrueBrain>so that ticket is the "proper" fix :D
16:24<TrueBrain>(the current system also makes no sense :P)
16:24<LordAro>if you insist :p
16:25<TrueBrain>I do! :D
16:26<TrueBrain>and gratz on release :D
16:26<TrueBrain>happy that all "just works" :D
16:26<LordAro>still!
16:30<andythenorth>hurrah
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16:55<Samu>can't believe it's already 2nd half of september
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17:36<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc opened pull request #7744: Draft Feature: OpenGL video driver https://git.io/JeO8B
17:37<LordAro>:o
17:38<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #7744: Draft Feature: OpenGL video driver https://git.io/JeO80
17:39<+michi_cc>LordAro: You may look, but I won't have time to do anything more until next week or so.
17:40<+michi_cc>SDL/Linux implementation would be nice.
17:42<LordAro>+16850,-402
17:42<LordAro>nice
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18:15<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> my hope is that we can provide an option where cities leave large blocks of connected tiles open <-- historically, most europeans had a large section of free space just outside the city wall, which was then used for placing wide roads
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>*european cities
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18:17<Eddi|zuHause>but for that to work, cities need a different expansion algorithm than "place one road and one house at a time"
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>something more like "build a large chunk of roads" every now and then, and then just filling it up with houses over time
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>(probably also changing the way that town zones work)
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18:35<Eddi|zuHause>btw, i once ran an experiment with increasing the minimum distance in the "better road" algorithm: https://ibin.co/4vGAYBRrVQLF.png
18:43<_dp_>would look really nice if those blank spots were filled with parks or smth
18:43<_dp_>also will be a bit different in a recent version as it builds houses on turns now
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>it makes it more apparent that there should be a resolution for the "two nearby dead ends, but cannot connect in a straight line" situation
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18:49<Eddi|zuHause>simple patch that the screenshot was made with: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pkywezxuy
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>some attempt at making it more generic https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p7dw4cffm
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>... where i don't remember how complete that is
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>... this is from 2011
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19:30<Eddi|zuHause>"return b-(((uint)(-a-1))%b)-1;" <-- there must be some better expression?
19:53<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z opened pull request #7745: Feature: setting for more flexible town spacing https://git.io/JeOBG
20:00<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #7745: Feature: setting for more flexible town spacing https://git.io/JeOBW
20:04<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #7745: Feature: setting for more flexible town spacing https://git.io/JeOBB
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20:17<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #7742: Cannot select partially visible station items https://git.io/JeOTK
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20:54<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #7746: Fix #7742, 66dd7c3: widget position can be negative https://git.io/JeOBd
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22:28<supermop_Home_>Eddi|zuHause that looks great
22:28<Eddi|zuHause>there must have been a reason why i never posted it, but i can't figure it out
22:30<Eddi|zuHause>http://webster.openttdcoop.org/?channel=openttd&date=1323129600 <-- related discussion
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23:58<supermop_Home_>i certainly think there's a use for more / better road layouts that can provide a bit more space
---Logclosed Tue Sep 17 00:00:17 2019