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#openttd IRC Logs for 2019-09-18

---Logopened Wed Sep 18 00:00:19 2019
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02:06<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7745: Feature: setting for more flexible town spacing https://git.io/JeOdw
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03:05<LordAro>oh reddit
03:05<LordAro>u so funny
03:06<LordAro>https://www.reddit.com/r/openttd/comments/d5he2a/openttd_193_release_update/f0nod09/
03:12<andythenorth>oo reddit
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04:54<@peter1138>LordAro, so lazy!
05:00<LordAro>peter1138: hmm?
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05:17<@peter1138>Reddit.
05:18<andythenorth>lunchit
05:18*andythenorth resists making lunch.grf
05:18<andythenorth>salad factory
05:18<andythenorth>plate warehouse
05:18<andythenorth>fork shop
05:19<@peter1138>How did you know I have salad today?
05:19<andythenorth>ESP
05:19<andythenorth>or coincidence
05:19<andythenorth>whichever you believe in more
05:20<@peter1138>Remember the days when I use to walk down to the Co-op and buy a lunch deal. Every day?
05:20<andythenorth>oof
05:20<@peter1138>Somehow I suspect that was cheaper, heh.
05:56<Etua>What is more common: if a creators of NewGRFs create necessary art themselves or do they hire someone from the community for that task if they don't feel competent enough?
05:57<andythenorth>the first
05:57<andythenorth>by about 99.9:0.1
06:01<Etua>Thanks and is there a clever way to avoid conflicts for example when someone is using massive GRF adding multiple categories of stuff but would like to install another one that handles one specific thing with more detail? What about 32-bit graphics? Should I use it, the default one or prepare for both? I would like to develop some GRF but I need to know these thing beforehand so I would not waste my time creating something incompatible with the rest of th
06:01<Etua>e game.
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06:01<andythenorth>32 bit graphics is your choice
06:01<andythenorth>I have a strong opinion against them, so my advice is not balanced on 32bpp
06:02<andythenorth>grf with multiple categories, your choices are
06:02<andythenorth>- split it up into smaller grfs
06:02<andythenorth>- detect known incompatible grfs when loading
06:03<andythenorth>e.g. FIRS checks for the following grfs known to conflict https://github.com/andythenorth/firs/blob/master/src/incompatible_grfs.py
06:04<andythenorth>and I add more when people report conflicts
06:04<Etua>I meant that I would like to create that more detailed GRF but at the same time I would not expect someone to drop their multi-category GRF like FIRS just to install mine.
06:05<andythenorth>you can disable some features
06:05<andythenorth>either automatically, or with user parameters
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06:09<Etua>Within my GRF or the bigger one? If my mod evolves around transferring and processing one type of cargo which happens to also exist in other GRF then disabling the features in my mod that are connected with that cargo would essentially disable the GRF completely or can it be done differently like automatically that some type of cargo is decared by other GRF so I would add new types of buildings etc. while avoiding doubling the same cargo within the game?
06:10<Etua>In the last part I mean that instead of creating a new cargo I reuse the existing one with new features, I should have formulated it differently.
06:10<andythenorth>general advice: only one industry + cargo grf should be active
06:11<andythenorth>multiple industry + cargo grfs causes unexpected results, unless they're deliberately designed to work together
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06:15<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #7745: Feature: setting for more flexible town spacing https://git.io/JeONV
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06:21<Etua>I had an idea for the GRF about processing trash which would be generated in the cities like the mail with specialised vehicles for transporting it everything could evolve over time so you would have only dump sites in the beginning, then you could burn it and in the end you would get the ability to recycle with profitability working like 3>2>1. Do you think that I could make it to work in a manner that the first two sites would be dead ends and the third
06:21<Etua> one would alter depending on whether FIRS is present with my trash cargo turning into recyclables cargo in the FIRS recycling depot and then being processed by FIRS or if FIRS is not present building my GRF's own processing plant which would create some standard goods for simplicity? Do you think that such hybrid solution would be feasible?
06:25<andythenorth>FIRS used to have trash
06:25<andythenorth>https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/CargoTypes#Cargo_Labels WSTE label at the end
06:26<andythenorth>making a grf that tries to modify or replace FIRS industries is unlikely to work well
06:27<andythenorth>making an add-on that complements FIRS but doesn't need to change it would work
06:27<andythenorth>did someone make trash chain?
06:27*andythenorth looks in forums
06:29<@peter1138>Dare you?
06:29<andythenorth>multiple times waste is discussed, but can't find a grf that does it https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=75556&p=1179722&hilit=incinerator#p1179722
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06:43<Etua>I came up with the idea last year and FIRS was the only GRF that I could find which actually implemented it but because I felt that my idea greatly extends it's behaviour I decided that I could do it anyway. My only problems were images for vehicles and buildings and possible problems with compatibility. I the scheme I described in the last message my GRF would operate on the other type of cargo up until conversion into recyclables and that's where I see
06:43<Etua>a potential source of problems because 1. I would need to check whether FIRS is installed and convert my trash cargo to recyclables from FIRS somewhere, ideally in the recycling depot 2. If I could not change the behaviour of recycling depot the rest of the GRF would not make sense because why would you want to get trash from the city when you would have more valuable recyclables popping out of thin air in the recycling depot?
06:48<Etua>Is the limit of city buildings producing maximum two types of cargo still valid? I remember that I have done some research on the topic last year but I forgot what was the conclusion.
06:49<andythenorth>you could fork FIRS
06:50<Etua>I could but if the limit of two types of cargo per building is still in place then most of my concept can go to trash.
06:51<andythenorth>not sure about House produce, but accept is 16 https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6872
06:52<andythenorth>seems produce is covered already https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callbacks#Custom_cargo_production_.282E.29
06:57<Etua>Great, does FIRS specify requirements for transport vehicles? Like can you transport everything introduced in FIRS with standard means or does it introduce it's own?
06:59<andythenorth>the convention is to keep industry grfs separate from vehicle grfs
06:59<andythenorth>so FIRS doesn't touch vehicles at all
06:59<andythenorth>this means user has to find newgrfs that support the new cargos :|
07:00<andythenorth>but it's more correct
07:00<andythenorth>hmm possibly FIRS should mod the default vehicles :P
07:00*andythenorth never considered that
07:01<Etua>Wouldn't that introduce possible conflicts with vehicle GRFs that support cargo from FIRS?
07:03<andythenorth>it might be possible to modify default vehicle properties
07:03<andythenorth>I haven't really looked
07:04<andythenorth>really the default vehicles should be fixed permanently in openttd :P
07:04<Etua>You mean that they should not be editable nor removable or that there should not be vehicle GRFs?
07:10<andythenorth>the default vehicles should support refitting to cargos in industry grfs, using cargo classes
07:19<@peter1138>Nearly lunch.
07:19<andythenorth>phew
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09:45<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7745: Feature: setting for more flexible town spacing https://git.io/JeOpW
09:55<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sirkoz commented on pull request #7736: Fix: Avoid using stat to retrieve file modification times on Windows (#7731) https://git.io/JeOpo
09:58<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7745: Feature: setting for more flexible town spacing https://git.io/JeOpP
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10:22<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7736: Fix: Avoid using stat to retrieve file modification times on Windows (#7731) https://git.io/JeOhL
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11:19<Samu>https://imgur.com/GSr0gNx last 10 years
11:19<Samu>recessions help my ai
11:20<Samu>comes stronger out of it, for some reason
11:27<Samu>civilai enjoyed first place for 1 year
11:27<Samu>in profits
11:28<Samu>didn't suffer much from the recession
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12:37<Samu>when did the downfall of my life start
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12:41<Samu>2001
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12:46<Samu>I'm gonna be surprised if CivilAI ends 2050 in first place
12:47<Samu>the 3 first are so close in profits to each other
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13:10<Samu>btw guys, fix the pathfinder cache issue
13:11<Samu>for 1.10 or 1.9.4 or somethin
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13:19<andythenorth>?
13:20<andythenorth>oh samu left :P
13:20<andythenorth>I wonder which issue he has reported it in
13:26<andythenorth>ouch slow visual diff is slow
13:27<andythenorth>also, css is now witchcraft
13:27<andythenorth>there is calc()
13:27<andythenorth>and it actually works!
13:27<andythenorth>there is a vh unit for viewport height
13:27<andythenorth>and it actually works!
13:27<andythenorth>:o
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13:45<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/Je3Jl
13:45<DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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14:11<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #7745: Feature: setting for more flexible town spacing https://git.io/Je3JA
14:13<nielsm>okay let's make this work too https://0x0.st/zti5.png
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14:19<andythenorth>so how to build longer town bridges then?
14:19<andythenorth>n+1 or n+2
14:20<TrueBrain>42, duh
14:22<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> hmm possibly FIRS should mod the default vehicles :P <-- that sounds like a horrible idea. we'll get endless complaints about "i use X vehicle GRF, how can i disable the default vehicles?!"
14:23<andythenorth>presumably modding them stops them being disabled?
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>it introduces a copy of the default vehicles, that other grfs cannot disable
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>... and nobody would think this is the fault of an industry grf
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>so making that a parameter won't help either
14:27<andythenorth>refittability for default vehicles? :P
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14:37<TrueBrain>so how difficult would it be to rewrite the MasterServer in Python .. hmm ..
14:37<TrueBrain>I need to recompile an OpenTTD client ..
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14:38<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like an insurmountable task.
14:41<TrueBrain>VS2019 license expired, strike 1
14:41<TrueBrain>sln project file tells me weird shit, strike 2
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>tbh, i hate setting up compilers...
14:43<TrueBrain>yeah ... I needed to crosscompile for MIPS and ARMs and others lately ..
14:43<TrueBrain>even worse :P
14:45<nielsm>okay so there's two ways to handle this "game length" setting together with a "game end year" setting: either entirely ignore the "game end year" setting if the game length is set, and just compare current year to starting year + game length, or when the game is started modify the end year to be start year + game length
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>nielsm: might be easier to just drop the end year and just use game length
14:46<TrueBrain>b'\x05\x00\x06\x02\x02'
14:46<TrueBrain>b'\x1e\x00\x04OpenTTDRegister\x00\x02\x8b\x0f\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
14:46<TrueBrain>w00p :)
14:46<nielsm>Eddi|zuHause maybe :P
14:46<TrueBrain>Servers nicely have a banner, Clients do not .. owh joy .. who designed this protocol?
14:46<andythenorth>so
14:46<andythenorth>bridge building
14:47<andythenorth>towns have do-while checking water tiles and crap
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: must have been a total idiot.
14:47<TrueBrain>I fully agree
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>:)
14:47<TrueBrain>don't know who it was, but pfft
14:47<andythenorth>and I want it to then continue 1 extra tile
14:47<TrueBrain>I hope his commit rights are revoked by now
14:47*andythenorth is well out of depth
14:47<andythenorth>this is actual programming :P
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i haven't looked at the code, but the bigger problem should be starting 1 tile early
14:51<andythenorth>I made that happen by accident
14:52*andythenorth wonders about more permissive town building
14:52<andythenorth>IRL I can knock a town bridge down and build a new one
14:57<TrueBrain>wuth, the UDP protocol is LE? Holy crap ...
14:58<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: this accidentally pads both ends with 1 tile https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/1780327/65120310-55b25700-d9e5-11e9-8b91-b0c0f1184d5e.png
14:58<TrueBrain>what have we been smocking back then ..
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15:05<Samu>https://imgur.com/KUJAD8R
15:05<Samu>2050, i win
15:06<nnyby>congrats lol
15:06<Samu>out of curiosity, gonna keep this running
15:06<nnyby>does your ai work on squirrel 3? i keep forgetting to try that. maybe ill do that tonight.
15:07<Samu>i haven't uploaded the new version yet
15:07<Samu>i'm not sure how i will upload
15:08<Samu>i can't create .tar files here
15:09<nnyby>oh i just meant on github. so this repo isn't up to date? https://github.com/SamuXarick/LuDiAI-AfterFix
15:09<Samu>nop, i dont have github desktop here
15:10<Samu>gonna try upload something, but the change log is missing
15:10<milek7>TrueBrain: what's wrong with LE?
15:11<TrueBrain>milek7: network protocols .... LE ....
15:11<TrueBrain>network byte order realllllyyyyy should always be BE
15:11<milek7>i think usage of BE in most protocols is just historial artifact?
15:12<TrueBrain>every sane protocol uses BE
15:12<TrueBrain>as that removes the 'guessing' ;)
15:13<TrueBrain>https://docs.python.org/2/library/struct.html <- for example, ! is 'network' order (read: big endian)
15:13<TrueBrain>it is just annoying as fuck if protocol don't do it like that
15:13<TrueBrain>sadly ......... I can only hit myself in the head, as I wrote this darn thing :(
15:13<TrueBrain>so I feel stupid for the ... 20-year-old-me?
15:14<Samu>nnyby: uploaded to github, can you try it
15:15<Samu>actually this github diff viewers will help me with the changelog
15:15<milek7>and < is LE... so what problem does it create?
15:15<andythenorth>TrueBrain: you have to develop forgiveness for former us
15:15<andythenorth>former us are thick as bricks
15:16<TrueBrain>so how to explain this clearly ..... this is a network protocol ... so you expect it to be in BE, as .. every protocol should be ... it isn't ... so I spend at least 5 minutes double checking what endianess this freaking protcol has .. so yeah ... problem created by 20-year-old-me, tnx dude
15:17<TrueBrain>also means I have to take care with htons .. oops ..
15:17<TrueBrain>*mental note added to list ... stack corruption .. shit*
15:19<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened pull request #7747: Feature: Configurable ending year https://git.io/Je3UD
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15:20<nielsm>I wonder if there's a way in afterload.cpp to know whether this is a scenario being loaded as a new game
15:24<TrueBrain> /* If Load Scenario / New (Scenario) Game is used,
15:24<TrueBrain> * a company does not exist yet. So create one here.
15:24<TrueBrain>:D
15:24<nielsm>yep found it
15:24<TrueBrain>cheezy as fuck :P
15:25<nielsm>actually
15:25<TrueBrain>PacketInvalidSize: (20, 20) <- pro programmer at work
15:26<nielsm>when starting a game from scenario, should it use the ending year set by the scenario, or by the client's newgame settings
15:28<nielsm>and also, if you load an old scenario in the editor, should it take on the original ending year, or the newgame settings ending year?
15:30<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7747: Feature: Configurable ending year https://git.io/Je3Ux
15:35<TrueBrain>we support requesting only IPv4 or IPv6 servers, but the client always says AUTODETECT ..
15:39<TrueBrain>funny, if you talk IPv6 with the MasterServer, your server-list is IPv6 servers only, so it seems
15:40<TrueBrain>bit nasty if you are dual-stack, I guess
15:40<TrueBrain>most IPv6 servers also announce on IPv4, but still
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15:44<nielsm>Eddi|zuHause: do you have an opinion on ending year handling for scenarios?
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>not really
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>but my tendency would be "the scenario developer is in control"
15:46<nielsm>yeah that's probably the stronger argument
15:47<nielsm>then it's just, what about when the scenario developer never had a chance of being in control (old scenario started as new game)
15:49<nielsm>"always convert to original ending year on load, regardless of scenario or not" is the easiest so maybe just what should be done
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>"just assume a sane default" seems to be appropriate
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see how that should be different between old savegames and old scenarios
15:57<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7747: Feature: Configurable ending year https://git.io/Je3UD
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15:59<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7747: Feature: Configurable ending year https://git.io/Je3TK
16:01<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7747: Feature: Configurable ending year https://git.io/Je3UD
16:01<milek7>looks like javascript canvas is vsynced
16:01<milek7>so it must run 10% slower, at 30fps
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>milek7: there was always some lingering discussion whether that was the originally intended game speed anyway
16:03<nielsm>isn't SVGA refresh 70 Hz or am I misremembering?
16:03<nielsm>if it is, then 35 fps might be just as reasonable
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>sounds unlikely
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16:10<Eddi|zuHause>historically, TV screen refresh rate was tied to the power frequency (50Hz in europe, 60Hz in the US), with computer screens, the american 60Hz seems to have established as a standard
16:13<milek7>in last years of CRTs I remember changing refresh rate on people computers from 60hz to 75hz
16:13<milek7>it made so much difference, 60hz was just terribly flickering
16:14<milek7>..and most said they didn't care
16:14<@orudge>Oh yes, I seem to remember 85Hz or so was comfortable for me
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16:37<Eddi|zuHause>75Hz does seem to ring a bell
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>but it was just one of the many options you had with SVGA
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>also, you could have high refreshrate or high resolution, but not both.
16:39<nielsm>classic mode 13h (320x200x8) runs at 70 hz at least
16:40<nielsm>and so do regular 80 and 40 column text modes
16:51<andythenorth>I should try this bridge hack some more
16:51<andythenorth>pls send me the codez
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17:09<TrueBrain>sorry, I only have nudes :(
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17:12<Eddi|zuHause>awesome, SVGA user's manual: "the above sequence should be familiar to anyone who has ever called the BIOS from assembly code"
17:13<TrueBrain>so nobody under the age of, what, 30? :D
17:13<+glx>I think I never called BIOS from assembly
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>this manual is from 1992
17:14<+glx>but I can read asembly
17:15<+glx>oh and I probably seen some of this calls during opendune first steps :)
17:15<+glx>s/this/these/
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>"* place a O [did they mean 0? they didn't write 0] in register AH to indicate "select mode" function * Place the mode number in register AL * Execute an INT 10h instruction"
17:17<+glx>I remember INT 10h :)
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>i've certainly seen INT 10h mentioned before, but i have no clue what it does, or how to invoke it
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>but do modern day graphics card manuals contain that kind of low-level information?
17:22<milek7>it's just instruction causing interrupt
17:23<+glx>hmm no, modern graphics card barely tells you how to plug it
17:24<+glx>and I think nobody tries to access it directly from code
17:24<+glx>unless you're writing a driver
17:29<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: AMD publish all that information, but probably not in the user manual :-/
17:30<+glx>user doesn't really care about that info anyway
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>glx: but that was probably also true for the SVGA cards from almost 30 years ago
17:31<TrueBrain>https://lgtm.com/projects/g/TrueBrain/OpenTTD-really-not-a-fork/alerts/?mode=list <- based on a slightly older master, as I needed to use the cmake branch in order for it to work
17:31<FLHerne>https://developer.amd.com/resources/developer-guides-manuals/ (scroll down a bit for GPUs)
17:32<+glx>do you want an cmake branch rebase ?
17:32<TrueBrain>I still think we should merge cmake asap
17:33<andythenorth>merge everything, call it 2.0
17:33<milek7>ISA are usually published
17:33<milek7>but I don't think manuals about initalizing and displaying something on it are available
17:33<+glx>yeah we could merge, then let people commenting on the PR submit their changes :)
17:34<TrueBrain>the current comments on the PR don't add anything, really
17:34<TrueBrain>in CMake world, everyone thinks it should be done differently
17:34<TrueBrain>there is no "truth"
17:34<TrueBrain>just ..... different ways of approaching the same problem
17:34<TrueBrain>so yeah ... let them make a PR if they think their way is better .. it possible (even more likely) is
17:34<TrueBrain>but just having people say it should be different, doesn't contribute tbh
17:35<TrueBrain>"This header file should contain a header guard to prevent multiple inclusion." <- lol, this indeed is a bug :D
17:35<TrueBrain>"Comparison is always true because tmp_cidr <= 0 and 32 <= cidr." <- errors with the variable names in them, nice :D
17:36<andythenorth>if it works, it's 'done'
17:37<TrueBrain>"This parameter of type NetworkAddress is 224 bytes - consider passing a const pointer/reference instead." <- oef
17:39<TrueBrain>https://lgtm.com/projects/g/TrueBrain/OpenTTD-really-not-a-fork/alerts/?mode=tree&severity= <- better view; if this is really all there is, that is not bad :P
17:39<TrueBrain>but I am pretty sure coverity reported more :D
17:40<milek7>there is also PVS-Studio
17:41<+glx>"Comments containing 'FIXME' indicate that the code has known bugs." hmm yes
17:41<TrueBrain>not LGTM is part of the GitHub family, you can also enable this for every PR
17:41<TrueBrain>might be fun :)
17:42<TrueBrain>not = now
17:42<TrueBrain>nice baseline of quality-of-control
17:44<TrueBrain>anyway, sleep time
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17:50<andythenorth>also
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19:55<DorpsGek_III>[OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nikolas updated pull request #7708: Draft Change: Use Squirrel version 3.0.7 https://git.io/fjxWf
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---Logclosed Thu Sep 19 00:00:20 2019